Electra Meccanica Vehicles – Miracle In The Dragons’ Den

Jerry Kroll from Vancouver, B.C., pitches his solo electric vehicle to the Dragons.You could have knocked me over with a feather when CEO Jerry Kroll received the offer he wanted from one of the Dragons, $25million for 40% share! Thus falls the last obstacle except one, certification, which has been in the works for many months now. I’m thinking certification is a lot more likely than getting $25million more to invest in factory.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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52 Responses to Electra Meccanica Vehicles – Miracle In The Dragons’ Den

  1. Deaf Spy wrote, “I wonder why Chinese would produce Solos. They are already producing EVs happily without Jerry.”

    Business is business. The Solo is about the easiest EV to build so it makes sense that a motorcycle maker could do it. Establish the supply-chain, create some space, hire workers, and ship product. It’s the Chinese model of manufacturing. In their market, Solo has about the best specs if you care about speed/range. That’s because of its low drag.

  2. Deaf Spy says:

    I wonder why Chinese would produce Solos. They are already producing EVs happily without Jerry.

  3. Grece says:

    Solo is a world car and it will be produced in factories around the world. Global production should be ~5000 vehicles this year. However, the Canadian factories can easily produce 1000 vehicles shortly.

    How is it a “world car” Robert? When Jerry cannot even begin to ship one-car a month let alone a single car per week!

    5000 Solo’s are going to be produced this year?? Wow!!..that is about nine months and with a thirty-day average per month, that equates to eighteen that should be built per day! Who is going to build eighteen Solo’s per day Robert?

    What factories and where are they located, that can produce 1000 Solo’s? That comes about be about three to four a day till the end of the year.

    Robert, quit teasing us with all this collusion and back-room dealing!

    P.S. Take a look at this: https://twitter.com/Model3VINs Tesla is cranking them Model 3’s faster then you can spend your monthly pension check.

  4. DrLoser says:

    Let’s combine the ideas of annualized cost and present utility, Robert. And I”ll start with, of course, the immediate option of buying a second-hand Leaf. Here’s one I found without much effort: C$16,900, 56,000 kilometres on the clock. Saves you C$2,850 (after Solo deposit) for a car that actually works, and is actually available right now. We can presume that it is roughly 10% through its useful life.

    Let’s consider the annualized costs of this particular vehicle. (You can get one for several thousand less, if you look around.) Given your mileage, I don’t think the recharging is going to make much difference. And because Nissan is a globally recognised brand, I would think that the resale value of this vehicle in five years is at least C$8,000. So, basically, C$1,800 per year. (Need I point out that this is a tenth of the annual cost of your nonexistent Solo?)

    Resale value of the Solo: God knows, but probably nothing. Certainly not C$8,000 in five years.

    There’s one more advantage to the Leaf, which I will come back to. But for now, let’s consider your alternatives:

    1) Buy a beat-up pickup for C$1,000. There have to be dozens of these, local to you. And you’re an engineer and a mechanic, so you should enjoy fixing things. A beater has the ecological advantage, as Grece points out, that its ecological/carbon footprint/life cycle cost has been amortized to practically nothing, so you win big right there.

    2) Find some way to manage all those urgent automotive expeditions that you continually claim, but which somehow have not actually impinged on your devil-may-care Winnipeg lifestyle over the year that you have been waiting for a Solo. See (1) and (3).

    3) Continue to live your life as an automotive parasite, depending upon your wife, children, and friends to convey you ‘cross the vast distances of the prairies. Hey, somehow you’ve managed to make it work so far! It’s almost like being a self-elected total invalid, except that you can’t even be bothered to buy a motability scooter.

    Given that any alternative bar the last is actually going to cost you money, I predict that 2018 will be the Year of Pog Invalidism. Rather more likely than the Linux Desktop, I should add.

    Now, that extra comment I promised you re. the Leaf. If you really want to persuade your Good Lady of the value of an EV, you’re not going to do it with a plastic tricycle. You might stand a chance with a Nissan Leaf, because whilst she’s presumably not insane enough to want to experiment with a death-trap, she might well take the odd shopping trip in a standard 4-door.

    So, buy not spending money on something that is available today, and by pursuing your infantile dreams of something that will almost certainly not be worth buying in the future, even if available, which it won’t be —

    You’ve just totally obliterated the chance of getting your nearest and dearest to invest whole-heartedly in the Future of the Planet.

    Good Job, O Manitoban Eco-Crusader!

  5. DrLoser says:

    UPDATE – The bus route was discontinued in 2016… for good reasons.

    Indeed. Probably because everybody concerned found a more appropriate and cost-effective automotive solution, such as, say, a second-hand Nissan Leaf.

    Hardly because everybody bought a Solo. Which rather contradicts your own reasoning on this one.

    Just buy that nasty little cheap Chinese motability thing and have done with it.

  6. DrLoser says:

    The Solo will be even less costly.

    Based upon what annualised figures, Robert? I’ve skethed out mine. Let’s see yours. But as usual, you won’t provide them, because you’d rather cherry-pick a side argument and ignore the reality.

    Speaking of which, do stop banging on about that “foreign ownership” thing. It was a side-argument. I explicitly went through my use of it as a side-argument. I explicitly allowed you to describe me as an uninformed racist bigot on that particular point. That particular point is moot.

    The general point was that you did not link to the SEC filings for Electro Meccanica, and you still haven’t, and there are plenty of other juicy bits to look at.

    Such as, for example, the complete absence of this $25 million. Perhaps, as Ivan says, a unicorn will simply fart $25 million out of its backside.

    Unicorns, for reference purposes here, and because I do not wish to be misinterpreted, and not required to make an SEC filing. So, it’s possible. More plausible, indeed, than anything you have come out with so far.

  7. Deaf Spy says:

    And you still don’t answer why you are not buying an EV from China.

  8. Grece wrote, “You don’t have to have an automobile Robert.”

    Well, I choose to live far from the madding crowd as does TLW. It would be very difficult to live here without an automobile. We could lease/rent or hire but it’s less costly to own so that we have greater convenience and minimum cost/mile. The Solo will be even less costly. Eventually, TLW will see the light.

  9. Grece says:

    You don’t have to have an automobile Robert. In fact, you do not even own one of your own currently. TLW has her hybrid SUV that you incessantly whine about, but I am sure it is used daily to visit the store so as to procure tidings to place into your mouth.

    Be honest, TLW is never going to get rid of the SUV and you are NEVER going to receive a Solo.

  10. I brought up public transportation. Where I live those are:

    1. A taxi which starts at $50 and needs an hour’s notice.
    2. A single bus route which has hourly service and costs $4.50 to take me into the city.

    In an emergency, I could take either of those but they just aren’t very convenient. The bus, by the way, requires a mile walking to reach. There’s no way I would use either to go to the shooting range, or gather mushrooms, or visit relatives, or go shopping, or go to the post office or vote. There are commuters who use that bus route but they do it daily and live right along the route. They are mostly students who see the bus as cheaper than owning an automobile. Since I have to own an automobile for other reasons, that is not the issue for me. I need the most economical automobile I can find and it’s Solo.

    UPDATEThe bus route was discontinued in 2016… for good reasons.

  11. Ivan wrote, of Solo, “it will be as popular as the Messerschmitt KR200 and the BMW Isetta, combined”.

    Let’s see. ~80% of people owning private automobiles commute and run errands by private automobile with no passengers. They can do it most economically with Solo. Millions will use it just as millions bought Beetles. The only alternatives are car-pooling which is grossly inconvenient, public transportation which often doesn’t reach where people live, or human-powered means which often doesn’t reach where people live and work. So, unless there is a great social-engineering project of reorganizing cities to make residences and workplaces proximate, there will be a need, market and practicality for Solo. Solo is definitely not for everyone in every situation but it sure matches the needs for many students and workers and businesses and it can be cheaply produced anywhere.

  12. Ivan says:

    Solo is a world-car.

    Sure, and it will be as popular as the Messerschmitt KR200 and the BMW Isetta, combined. Also, we will no longer have to worry about climate change as unicorn farts will save us all.

  13. DrLoser wrote, “you can ignore all the “foreign” filings”.

    Sigh. It’s not the investors who are foreign, but EMV, originating in Canada. Vancouver has people from all over Earth, some who are foreign to Canada but most are Canadian. EMV has lots of Canadian staff who speak Chinese and/or who do business in China which are reasons they began production in China. Solo is a world-car. While the concept is global and some predecessors evolved in USA, Solo is a Canadian design and implementation.

  14. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser admits to senility with […quotes…]

    The SEC is in USA. EMV is in Canada, a country foreign to USA.

    Well, they’re still filing with the SEC, aren’t they? A rather more senile person than I pointed this out a little earlier:

    A filing with the SEC shows EMV has recently increased the size of the board of directors to 7.

    That would make Canadians “foreign” for the purpose of filing, I would think. Whether or not their name is Zhang. And whether or not they can be presumed to have some sort of financial or fiduciary connection with a country that is neither the USA, nor Canada, but, just to guess wildly, China.

    I’m not being racist here. I’m being objective. It’s interesting that there are a number of foreign “investors” on this list — and it’s possibly entirely innocent. But interesting nonetheless.

    The other parts of the SEC filings, which you so very helpfully didin’t trouble yourself to link to, are to be honest far more interesting. And I note that you have not troubled yourself to deal with them. So let us, for the sake of argument, assume that I am senile, deluded, and bigoted, and you can ignore all the “foreign” filings.

    What about the total lack of a filing for $25 million of investment? What about that weird $300,000 thing? What about the interesting fact that the shares are variously quoted at 40¢s and C$5.99, even though they are not freely available to trade on any market?

    And what about the TCO issue? It’s not like you, Robert, to throw C$3,600 down the drain. Why, you could buy two more broken roto-tillers for that much — top of the (broken) range!

    You’re not very good at answering direct questions, are you?

  15. kurkosdr says:

    Well, Robert, why didn’t you use your Google skills to find an alternative. Look at this

    What is this? A BMW that got its face punched in? This is why I think everything China exports should be tarrifed to death. To compensate for stuff like this.

  16. DrLoser admits to senility with, “Lots of interesting stuff there, including various transactions by “foreign ownership” — though how you could describe a retired couple living in BC as foreign is not clear to me”.

    The SEC is in USA. EMV is in Canada, a country foreign to USA.

  17. Deaf Spy says:

    Well, Robert, why didn’t you use your Google skills to find an alternative. Look at this

    Alas, it has four wheels, which is exactly one more than what you need. But, it has better characteristics, actually does look like a real car, and is still half the price of the Solo That Will Never Be.

  18. DrLoser says:

    A filing with the SEC shows EMV has recently increased the size of the board of directors to 7. That could be to allow “due diligence” to expand to seats at the table. I think they went from 4 seats to 7, so 3/7=42%, about what the Dragon offered to take for $25 million.

    Yes, well, that’s all very interesting, Robert. But it doesn’t show evidence of penny one being invested. And suspicious minds (such as mine) might conclude that a VC representation of 3 on the board, combined with Jerry’s vote, might actually turn the whole caper into something that doesn’t actually deliver a single EMV to the present depositors. (Who are only guaranteed to get their deposit back. I can think of better ways to spend that cash-flow than to actually deliver tricycles to retail customers, several of whom will probably cry “lemon!”, and I’m not even a Venture Capitalist.)

    That SEC link you conveniently failed to provide? Which is also very difficult to find on EMV’s site? Another favour: I’ve just provided it for you.

    Lots of interesting stuff there, including various transactions by “foreign ownership” — though how you could describe a retired couple living in BC as foreign is not clear to me, but hey, 5 million shares at 40¢s each — but not much in the way of filings for investment.

    I did find one, with seven directors as per your specification, so I assume it includes fire-breathing denizens and such. Sadly it’s only for C$300,000, which falls a little short of your projections.

    Perhaps you can identify an SEC filing that is closer to your supposition?

    Or perhaps you are blowing even more hot air than the average dragon?

  19. DrLoser says:

    I don’t recall Robert posting this link, so I’ll do him the favour of posting it myself. Combined retail and corporate orders for ~160,000 EMV vehicles at an estimated hit-the-road price of C$4.38 billion!!!

    That’s rather impressive, considering that Jaguar (for example) had a record year in 2017 and only sold 179,000 vehicles.

    Even more impressive, considering that Jaguar employs something like 5,000 people (plus a convoluted supply chain and huge network of dealerships) and has an established factory base near where I live that features about twenty production lines, massive investment in robotics, and so on and so forth.

    Plastic tricycles are the way of the future! Or at least, they are just as long as you don’t read the small print in my link. (Which is incidentally an official EMV link.)

    Hubris and credulity. Credulity and hubris.

  20. DrLoser says:

    How many days do you travel on the highway, Robert? And how many of those do you not travel with TLW, who has aspirations to own a gas-guzzler?

    This is a worthwhile calculation. If you spend, say, 25 days a month puttering around Winnipeg, then frankly this wondrous Chinese vehicle is perfect for those 25 days. The other five or six days (which, remember, are sans TLW and her more sensible notion of a vehicle)? You can rent a car for ~C$20 per day for those. That comes to a down-payment for the Chinese vehicle of ~C$3740, and a monthly surcharge of maybe C$125.

    The Solo comes (as in “My Eyes Have Seen The Glory Of The Coming Of The Lord,” except not quite as reliably) at ~C$20,000. Minus your C$250 deposit, of course.

    20,000 minus 3,740 is 16,260. 16,260 divided by 125 is 130 months. More than ten years. And the beauty of it is, you don’t even tie yourself down. Let’s go super-insane and assume that you can buy a second-hand Solo in five years for, say, half the price. (Not an unreasonable depreciation.) No moving parts! Still a very desirable tricycle for the gadabout ecological Winnipeg playboy! In that case, you’ve spent something like C$16,500 to get basically the same result, except that you actually have a driveable vehicle delivered, and you’ve saved C$3,250 (after deposit), and you also have the benefit of five years to reconsider (in case, say, Tesla produces a superior tricycle). And I’m not even considering present value of capital, nor inflation.

    I’m presuming, of course, that you have done the math on this. You are, after all, a self-acknowledged wizard at mathematics.

    Oh, and that comment about the “efficiency” of the Hai Di? I’m sure you can explain what you mean by “efficiency” in this case.

    I’m less sure you can explain the “efficiency” of capital usage, as outlined above.

  21. Deaf Spy wrote, “Robert, why don’t you buy this?”

    Too low efficiency. Too low speed. Too small. It might be OK for puttering around a farm but I want to travel on highway.

  22. DrLoser says:

    Rather sadly, the XZ SR4 has two obvious defects from Robert’s point of view.

    1) It’s presently available, which means that he would actually have to blow the moths out of his wallet and shuck up US$2,889. As opposed to keeping the wallet closed and waiting for his Prince Jerry to come.
    2) It has four wheels, unlike the Solo. As Robert repeatedly points out, and I can quite see his point here, there is no point in paying for something you don’t need. Like an extra wheel.

  23. DrLoser says:

    The preorder money amounts to about one month of the payroll.

    Sign me up as an apprentice production line engineer! I’m 22, I have a degree from a reputable college, and I’ve always dreamed of finding that “special” job opportunity that offers me a whole 31 days of job security! (Except in February or April or June or September or November, obviously.)

    EMV is well-funded for their tiny operation.

    Their tiny operation is in theory intensively technical, Robert. (Actually it’s more reminiscent of a Ponzi scheme, but we’ll let that ride for now.) It’s not just whips and buggies. Your evidence that it is “well-funded” amounts, not so much as to “because I say so,” as to “because in my dreams, I desperately want it to be so.” Which is no sort of evidence at all.

    Four extra directors on the board does not actually constitute concrete evidence that $25 million has been invested, Robert. See Grece, below, on how the results of Dragons’ Den usually pan out.

    Mining for lithium involves considerably more environmental/energy costs than just “sticking the ore in a puddle and letting it soak out.” You are being extraordinarily feeble-minded and/or disingenuous here.

    But, let’s assume that the ore can magically be transformed into a battery-ready compound, fer free! (It can’t.) You’re still left with all the other bits and pieces. Huge amounts of plastic, as far as I can see. (Naturally this would be environmentally-conscious plastic that is not, in any way, derived from petroleum products.) A small-scale production line — and I mean, really small-scale; you’ll see more Caterham Super 7 kit cars this year than you will Imaginary Tricycles — with consequent resource wastage. Not to mention the financial costs to the insurance industry, who are going to be devastated by all the grotesque and fatal accidents caused by the Imaginary Tricycle colliding with, say, a cardboard box…

    Grece is right. You can’t measure the ecological/energy efficiency of a vehicle without considering the entire life cycle. But here’s the thing: you don’t have to!

    Vote with your brain, Robert! There must be tens of thousands of like-minded concerned citizens who are pressing for a viable, eco-friendly, mass production, electric car! And with enough popular demand, that car (or those cars) will take the market away from gas-guzzlers!

    Or, in other words, buy one that exists, and that people want. Say, a second-hand Leaf or Volt or proper car of your choice. Make your voice heard on the market! Nobody but a demented freak would buy the Imaginary Tricycle even if it were available, which it really seriously is not.

    Then again, I might be underestimating the number of demented freaks in Winnipeg. Perhaps you should form a club, or something.

  24. Grece says:

    Free shipping from China; cheapskate Robert would love that!!

  25. Deaf Spy says:

    Hey, Robert, why don’t you buy this?

    It is available today!

  26. kurkosdr says:

    There is no Solo for you Pog. How many Solos has EMV delivered so far?

  27. Grece says:

    Cobalt is not used in the cathodes in Solo.

    LOL, are you certain? That’s not the ONLY place it is used Robert. Tell us, where else is Cobalt used.

  28. Grece wrote, “Mining lithium is not the only element you old goat, cobalt is also needed.”

    Cobalt is not used in the cathodes in Solo.

    Further, in batteries that do use cobalt, lithium is much lighter so a low percentage by mass is still a high percentage by atom. Therefor lithium is the major cost/effort in the cells.

  29. Grece says:

    Mining lithium is not the only element you old goat, cobalt is also needed.

  30. Grece wrote, “there are no gains”.

    ROFL!!! Mining lithium often involves pumping water into a puddle and letting it dry in the sun. Meanwhile iron oxide gets roasted with coal, cast, rolled, milled and shipped all the while sucking energy. Oh, and burning tons of carbon.

  31. Grece says:

    Joe-Peon, please explain to us, how an alleged “green-energy Electric-car” is anymore less polluting than my diesel truck.

    In truth, the ONLY thing that matters environmentally speaking in reference to cars, is the size of the carbon footprint they have left at the end of their life cycle. When you consider the amount of energy consumed in the R&D of electric cars, plus the enormous amount of energy consumed in the mining, transportation, refining and manufacturing of the lithium ion battery and rest of highly time consuming manufacturing of the rest of the components. Then, of course the disposal of said battery, etc. You will understand that there are no gains.

  32. kurkosdr says:

    Robert doesn’t understand labor costs. He thinks everything should be free.

    I wouldn’t say that. I would say though that he has no idea about the true labour costs of a custom car. Because that’s what the Solo is. It has absolutely no economies of scale behind it besides the ones you would find in any custom car.

    For example, do you really think that someone invested millions of dollars on a dashboard injection molding machine just to produce 1000 pieces for the Solo? No, it’s all small-run parts.

    BTW, how is the assembly line going? How many Solos does EMV gotten out of the door so far?

    Everyone should have been tipped about the nature of EMV’s business just by visiting their website. There are no prices on any of the “models” they have “produced” so far and no production numbers. All their “models” are bespoke customs built to order. There is no mass production in Jerry’s Custom Body Shop garage and never will be and there is no way they can offer what they are promising for a price befitting to a mass produced vehicle.

  33. joepeatf says:

    Grece is jealous, his ICE car polluter will be replaced by green energy, electric cars. Why you jealous of Pogson, you comment alot in his blog? Pray tell, do you have a life 😉

  34. Grece says:

    Updates are scheduled for the first Wednesday of each month at 6pm PST.

    Thank you Robert for reinforcing what I stated. It’s one thing to ramble about something, but another to actually give HARD data with accurate date’s that do not change every month.

  35. kurkosdr wrote, “there is no way Jerry can produce your Solo at the promised price and he probably has eaten through the preorder money to produce the early models by now”.

    The preorder money amounts to about one month of the payroll. EMV is well-funded for their tiny operation. It’s just to expand to larger buildings that they need more investment. It’s in the works, apparently, because they’ve promised to make thousands of Solos this year.

  36. Grece, being illiterate, wrote, “Jerry is not having anymore CEO talks till December.”

    Updates are scheduled for the first Wednesday of each month at 6pm PST.

  37. Grece says:

    Robert doesn’t understand labor costs. He thinks everything should be free.

  38. kurkosdr says:

    Joking aside, you know your procurement strategy is questionable when its success depends on the outcome of a low-brow reality TV show.

    At least the LeMaker Cello pre-order made sense on the surface. AMD was losing in x86 and a diversification looked plausible. Nobody could have seen the massive reinvestment in x86 (so much for post-PC) and how it could make unimportant little side-projects like the one needed to make the Cello work to be thrown under the bus. This is why nobody should invest in vapor btw.

    But this time you are not investing in vapor, you are investing in obvious fraud. Assuming EMV knocks one Solo per week, this means each Solo carries a labour cost of 2900CAD in assembly costs alone, never mind the labour costs for all the custom parts like dashboard, grill, body panels and glass panels.l, battery cell costs and material costs. If the reality show doesn’t go as planned *pfff bahaha* excuse me, I meant doesn’t go as desired (by that I mean money in the bank account of EMV), there is no way Jerry can produce your Solo at the promised price and he probably has eaten through the preorder money to produce the early models by now.

  39. Grece says:

    Jerry is not having anymore CEO talks till December. Any informed person can make an educated guess as to why.

  40. kurkosdr says:

    So, Pog, does this mean you are getting your Solo before Q1 2018 goes?

  41. Grece says:

    BLAH BLAH BLAH, Jerry is all talk, and you are NEVER going to receive your SOLO Robert.

  42. DrLoser wrote, “Do let us know when that $25 million investment becomes a physical reality”.

    A filing with the SEC shows EMV has recently increased the size of the board of directors to 7. That could be to allow “due diligence” to expand to seats at the table. I think they went from 4 seats to 7, so 3/7=42%, about what the Dragon offered to take for $25 million. I know that’s vague but EMV is not tipping its hand much. I expect to see further announcements soon that will show the investment and, I hope, results. Changes like that will materially affect the value of EMV so SEC will want investors to know.

  43. DrLoser says:

    Do let us know when that $25 million investment becomes a physical reality, Robert.

    Not too much to ask, is it?

  44. kurkosdr wrote, “When your hopes of getting your preorder hinge on the promises of a silly reality TV show…”

    EMV has raised $millions by convention means. Why not raise some more on TV which has the added bonus of cheap advertising? Whatever helps me get my Solo ASAP is OK by me as long as no crimes are committed in the process.

  45. kurkosdr says:

    When your hopes of getting your preorder hinge on the promises of a silly reality TV show… Also, any news about that certification that’s taking too long? Some paper trail, maybe?

  46. Grece says:

    Oh what smart business startup was this Robert? Do Tell!

  47. Grece wrote, “it is peculiar to say the least, that half of Dragons’ Den investments fall through after the show”.

    That’s about normal. About half of all startups fail/quit/stop/close within two years. The causes are many but I’ll list a few:

    • running out of cash before break-even,
    • failing to keep up with paperwork,
    • it’s too damned hard, and
    • it’s not as much fun as I thought it would be…

    I did start a small business once. I quit because of several of those factors. The tax-man gave me trouble. The municipal zoning people gave me trouble. TLW gave me trouble. We didn’t have enough cash to continue, and my property insurance guy promised to cancel our insurance if we continued. It was interesting and informative and a lot of the money invested did not go to waste but it was more than a year of effort for no gain.

  48. Grece says:

    Lets review some of these investments!


  49. Grece says:

    LOL, yes Robert it is peculiar to say the least, that half of Dragons’ Den investments fall through after the show.

    In an analysis of all 143 businesses that successfully won cash on the show between series 1 and 11, just £5.8m of the £13m pledged was ever invested.


  50. joepeatf wrote, “Jerry’s Motors has bright future..I am excited to buy sexy car.”

    I agree. Solo is a great concept and it will thrive in the niche of single commuting for years to come. Others have made little ugly things that were similar but EMV has brought together the right technology and sold it well. It’s too bad the safety-certification takes so long but otherwise the project has been done well. They could do with a better website though… Relying on FaceBook for dynamic stuff and their website for static stuff is peculiar.

  51. joepeatf says:

    Jerry’s Motors has bright future..I am excited to buy sexy car.

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