Unintended Consequences Of Slavery In IT

“The University of Calgary has admitted to paying out $20,000 in Canadian dollars to a cyberattacker that infected the institution’s systems with malware.”
 
See University gives in to $20,000 ransomware demand
This is sad news. A big Canadian university gives in to extortion. It’s probably compounded bad news that the university gave in to Wintel’s wishes that they have a monoculture of fluffy software foisted on the world by monopolists.

Obviously many use That Other OS for valid purposes but few would do so if this incident was on their radar. There are hundreds of such malwares. How many times will the university pay up for permission to use the hardware they own? They’ve already likely paid Intel double the value for their chips, M$, even more for permission to use Intel’s chips and now a steady stream of cyber-criminals.

I recommend the university use Debian GNU/Linux, software that works for them, not against them. It worked for me and my schools when I was a teacher. I had thousands of issues with That Other OS and very few problems since migrating to GNU/Linux.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in Linux in Education, technology and tagged , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

374 Responses to Unintended Consequences Of Slavery In IT

  1. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “You lost the right to see it due to your prior stupidity.”

    Nope. You have no capability to show, so you give the same bullshit answer that you have always given. Remember, you butted into a discussion that you had no part of and then proceeded to spam ME with a load of half googled, half made up garbage.

    You brought this on yourself linux troll, The burden of proof that you have such skills remains yours. Since you choose to try to avoid demonstrating the musical skills needed to use ANY music program of this type. you stand once again as a proven liar and fraud.

    And no amount of name calling is going to make that fact go away.

  2. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus the reality is knowing how bad finale import and export is means no matter how good of example I will put up you will complain it cannot merge into your workflow.”

    You seem to forget that I am not totally dependant , any composition that I finish in addition to MusicXML 3.0 and MIDI stream, is saved on paper, in pdf format. For Completed compositions, the native file format just becomes another archival format. And should the time come when I do decide to change from finale, it will most likely be to a program of equal capability like Sibelius or possibly even Notion, not one of the less capable FOSS programs
    .
    As far as I am conceerned, the only thing that you demonstrate with you continual harping on techno-details as if they were show stoppers.is that you have no clue about why a composer or musician would use a program like in the first place. IF you did, would not try to sell what you don’t have.

  3. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus be sides after spending over a year spamming after me with garbage you now expect me to show you my production work how big of a idiot do you think I am. You lost the right to see it due to your prior stupidity.

  4. oiaohm says:

    Have you ever really used Finale?
    Have you ever really used musescore?
    Can you demonstrate that you even know how to use music notation?

    Put up or shut up.
    Wizard Emeritus the reality is knowing how bad finale import and export is means no matter how good of example I will put up you will complain it cannot merge into your workflow.

    Sorry this put up or shut up is the fact that you have lost. The reality is you are a slave to finale and were not aware of it. You were the one who said that what ever was suggested had to integrate into your current work-flow so this means getting along with the incompatible bit of trouble finale is. So are you removing this limitation???? Like it or not you started the import/export debate by that limitation.

  5. Wizard Emeritus says:

    The linux troll sayeth:

    “Really simple to blame the FOSS program when its the core program you have chosen with a major problem.”

    and

    “The price of using a program that developers did not take part in open standard development in incompatibility with everything else.”

    The time has come to end this farce sir. I have asked you to demonstrate knowledge of how to use a music engraving program before I continue to respond to you. You have ignored that request. Frankly, I am not all that surprised. You have carefully confined your comments to technical details that are nowhere near relevant to the main point.

    I asked Robert Pogson to point to a FOSS program that gave me what I have now with Finale. He was unable to do so. You then jumped into that discussion, took up the challenge and then attempted ever since to change the subject to anything else rather when it became obvious that you could not do any better.

    You see Mr. Linux troll, unless you understand the capabilities of a Finale, you aren’t even going to be able to start to build your case. Then again that fact that now all you can manage to talk about is your take on how bad Finale’s import/export capabilities are is as much an admission of defeat as anything.

    So I ask again:

    Have you ever really used Finale?
    Have you ever really used musescore?
    Can you demonstrate that you even know how to use music notation?

    Put up or shut up.

  6. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus go to the MusicXML mailing list history when they were talking about the MusicXML 3.0 create you have staff from most of the commercial software asking for features so they can in fact export and import MusicXML cleanly. Not one of the Finale developers/staff showed up. So we are now in a horible location where Finale formatting information is not a 1 to 1 mapping to MusicXML 3.0 format. Since most of the other commercials did turn up they do have very good MusicXML 3.0 support.

    The price of using a program that developers did not take part in open standard development in incompatibility with everything else.

  7. oiaohm says:

    If it can not pass my compositions back and forth using MusicXML 3.0 as the transit protocol, then it is of no use to me at all or anyone else for that matter using any of the commercial programs, be it Finale, Sibelius or Notion.
    This is wrong. Both Sibelius and Notion have full MusicXML 3.0.

    Finale has trouble with MusicXML 3.0 because it does not in fact have full native MusicXML 3.0 import. Finale using MusicXML 3.0 to Sibelius or Notion and back has trouble. Sibelius to Notion and back does does not have trouble. That Finale is at trouble at this point means attempt to integrate with anything is trouble.

    The reality is Finale does not have MusicXML 3.0 as a stable transport protocol is the first place. This is why if you were using Sibelius or Notion you would have a way better time with FOSS as they do have MusicXML 3.0 as a stable transport protocol.

    Really simple to blame the FOSS program when its the core program you have chosen with a major problem.

    Some of the issue with features people claim are missing from Musicscore and the like is the fail to notice they all have jackaudio interfaces. So a lot of Finale finishing features are done in jackaudio and the individual FOSS programs have not bothered reinventing the wheel. Problem when you use those packages on windows jackaudio cannot work well because the real-time features its like does not exist or parts are not ported to anything other than Linux. So basically windows versions of lots of FOSS music production programs are in fact like trial version of a program with features disabled because Windows side does not support those features so they were built without them.

  8. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The usage of Finale in fact proves Wizard Emeritus is a Slave he has been chained in by a software that does not export MIDI properly does not document its own storage format so other programs can access it and does not export to documented formats properly.”

    You still do not get it do you Linux troll. We are not talking about your opinions of Finale, or my use of it. We not talking about Finales market share. We are talking about FOSS’s lack of any software that even comes close to what I have with Finale. I do not need musescore – its functionality is so limited in comparison with finale that it would be a huge step backwards for me to use it. I am only even looking at musescore because of all of the programs of its type in the FOSS domain, it seems like it may be of some use to me in specific parts of my workflow. If it can not pass my compositions back and forth using MusicXML 3.0 as the transit protocol, then it is of no use to me at all or anyone else for that matter using any of the commercial programs, be it Finale, Sibelius or Notion.

    “Finale is a really bad item to asking not to be called a Slave.”

    And you know this – how- troll. Have you created a score with it? How complex was that score, how many staves, how many instruments. How long was it? Did you do parts extractions from the score?

    When you can demonstrate that you have actually USED Finale to actually create music, then we might discuss the possible pros and cons of my moving from finale to musescore versus, say, my moving from Finale to Sibelius. Because then you might be someone who at least had some idea of what was being discussed, as opposed to a little nothing troll from the middle of nowhere Australia who is just attempting to “win” a FOSS vs. Commercial software debate that he lacks the real expertise to be in.

  9. oiaohm says:

    But Musescore imports into Finale using dolet perfectly fine.
    To be correct as good as any other to standard Musicxml program does including Sibelius.

    In the commercial programs Sibelius + everything else commercial that does properly support MusicXML is over 80% of the market. Finale even that its number 2 is under 20 percent of the market.

    The hard part for Finale users is to accept they are in the minority. So people making programs who should get the most resources. 80%+ of the market or less than 20%. So of course FOSS or commercial software developers are not to go out of their way to support Finale that is the truth. Attempting to demand FOSS or Commercials waste their time supporting Finale perfectly its not going to happen.

    Do a dolet or own export to musicxml and import back with Finale you will notice at times bits that could not be exported have disappeared. This is because Finale export to Musicxml is still incompletely. Now export from Sibelius to Musicxml and take it back in nothing has changed. So Finale is basically compatible with nothing even itself.

    Finale fails the most basic test of compatibility without putting any other programs in the mix. If it cannot do it with it self you stand no hope with anything else.

    So selection of Finale basically locked you out from using other software. Does not matter if the other software is Foss or Commercial.

  10. oiaohm says:

    Yes there is a reason why Sibelius is number 1 those people are smart enough to be absolutely in slaved by vendor that at least gave them a path out. Should be on end. Where finale users are slave to a vendor that has been very careful not to give them a path out.

    The trouble importing and exporting between Sibelius and Finale explains why Wizard Emeritus is having trouble between Finale and Open Source. Finale is one of the few programs where an exported MIDI from Sibelius does not in fact open properly. Remember Sibelius MIDI export is exactly to standard.

    Finale compatibility level is basically broken. So unable to use with FOSS or other Commercial software because when you import and export backwards and forwards something will change because it will not be exported completely.

    Issue here is Wizard Emeritus wanting to blame FOSS for something that Finale developers themselves admit is their problem. So its not the FOSS programs having to fix to support Finale the issue is Finale need to fix it self to support standards. The fact that Finale does not support Musicxml to the same level as open source stuff means if you are working in Musicxml with any else using any other program Commercial of FOSS you are going have more issues using Finale than the open source stuff.

  11. oiaohm says:

    As far as the musescore developers are concerned, they are indeed free to ignoring the fact that their program can’t import from one of the major commercial programs. IF musescore cant import my scores for processing and then re-export the modified scores back into finale for further processing, then it is of zero utility to me, and no amount of name calling and bloviating on your part is going to change that.
    But Musescore imports into Finale using dolet perfectly fine.

    Wizard Emeritus for the grade of super idiot he is I will explain it out.

    Finale and Sibelius have not bothered about making import and export to other programs in fact work perfectly. Both of there internal formats are totally not documented.

    I want to do this by loading up one of my finale scores that has been exported in MusicXML format. If musescore chokes on that input, then its game over, and no amount of excuse making, misdirection, or name calling on your part is going to change that. If a version of musescore does finally happen to do the import successfully, it still has to be capable of re-exporting modified results back into Finale,. If the re-import into Finale fails as well, then game over as well.
    The fact Finale has exported broken MusicXML using it default exporter means you cannot expect any MusicXML standard conforming program to open it. Does not matter if it musescore or something else commercial like Sibelius.

    Dr Loser what you miss is compatibility between music creation software has come out of the FOSS world. Before the FOSS programs started being able to share scores the only way was to share MIDI files loss all your formatting and pray the exported MIDI file was not fill of crap. To be trueful Finale has gone out of it way to be incompatible by even doing export MIDI with crap so preventing import into Sibelius.

    Unofficial MusicXML Test Suite Its unofficial because you cannot get the commercials to sign off on it because it will show how bad they are.

    There is no complete test suite of MusicXML files available for testing purposes.
    This is true but they also leave out there is no other MusicXML test suite in existent other than the lilypond one that everyone can jointly use. So this leaves anyone developing programs for MusicXML kinda high and dry does it not. So if someone does not like how lilypond renders something it would be really wise to submit bug report. Why because commercials and open source programs produced using MusicXML for export and import are going to be using lilypond as a reference because it the only one with the test suite. So Wizard Emeritus can ignore everything else open source but wise not to is lilypond. So rejecting programs because they are rendered by lilypond is basically a mistake.

    Of course Dr Loser saw unoffical then did not look around to see if there were any other MusicXML test-suites to find there are no others.

    The usage of Finale in fact proves Wizard Emeritus is a Slave he has been chained in by a software that does not export MIDI properly does not document its own storage format so other programs can access it and does not export to documented formats properly. Finale is a really bad item to asking not to be called a Slave.

    Sibelius handles MIDI and MusicXML properly these days. Sibelius never documented their internal format but at least MIDI exports from it was to standard. So a user of Sibelius could make the case they were not being a absolute slave allowing their work to be locked up. Yes there is a reason why Sibelius is number 1 those people are smart enough to be absolutely in slaved by vendor.

  12. Dr Loser says:

    LilyPond is part of the reference standard

    Bollocks, Fifi. There is no reference standard for musicXML, and LilyPond, the application provider, would not be part of it if there were.

    (Incidentally, LilyPond works to the MIT license. Something that will no doubt gladden the hearts of everybody out there who values real freedom.)

    Now, if you’re talking about the LilyPond test suite, let me gently direct you to the line at the top of my cite:

    Unofficial MusicXML Test Suite.

    Perhaps these guys are being self-deprecatory? Oh no they ain’t. I’m sure your withered powers of reading other people’s text will soon fail you without my help, Fifi, so I’ll just quote again:

    There is no complete test suite of MusicXML files available for testing purposes.

    Don’t get me wrong. I encourage any and all developers to use whatever test suites are available. (Whilst maintaining a healthy sense of skepticism about the results.)

    But test suites are not a necessary part of a “reference implementation,” Fifi. And this test suite is neither complete, nor official.

    And frankly it doesn’t matter. The professionals out there who wish to transfer orchestrations between Finale and Sibelius, or vice versa, won’t just not give a toss about this spurious “standardization.”

    They are not IT people, they are professional musicians, Fifi. They won’t even have a clue what you are whining about.

    When will FLOSS supporters understand this? The customer really does come first.

    They don’t care about your shoddy little self-proclaimed spurious standards. They just want to get their work done.

    You are not Hammurabi, Princess. You do not get to codify the Laws and set them in stone.

    You’re just a worthless ignorant unmusical little reject on the outer fringes of society, with a massive chip on your shoulder.

  13. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The price to pay for the Dolet plugin is registering with http://www.musicxml.com that you can in fact download. So it free to have proper musicxml compatibility instead of finale broken default. The other way you pay for using Dolet is slower importing and exporting but at least importing and exporting that does validate.”

    Congratulations!

    You discovered as I did, that dolet for finale is free. But you did so only after I prompted you to look. before then you were only too happy to parrot my mistaken notion based on old news that I had to pay for it. This is incompetence on your part.

    But of course, once again, you refuse to acknowledge my original point completely. You still have never ponied up a complete configuration of FOSS tools that come even close to matching what I use now, let alone function as its replacement. And by the way, talking in general about your FOSS solution doesn’t count as a presentation, no matter what you think.

    “So Wizard Emeritus get the problem yet. LilyPond is part of the reference standard. So claiming you will not use a program because it uses LilyPond says you are not interesting in using anything to standard.”

    What Problem? Since I do not like Lilyponds output, do you really think that some bit of technical minutiae is going to change anything? Nobody but a musical idiot like you would think that the kind of technical niggling of you past few posts means anything.

    “Wizard Emeritus get the to standard musicxml test suite first and attempt to open that in Finale you will find even the current Finale fails by rendering really badly.”

    Idiot. I am not assessing MusicXML compatibility , I am attempting to assess musesscore’s utility to me as a potential substitute for what I use now. I want to do this by loading up one of my finale scores that has been exported in MusicXML format. If musescore chokes on that input, then its game over, and no amount of excuse making, misdirection, or name calling on your part is going to change that. If a version of musescore does finally happen to do the import successfully, it still has to be capable of re-exporting modified results back into Finale,. If the re-import into Finale fails as well, then game over as well.

    “Demanding that FOSS be Dolet compatible has some grounds and only those of us who know the field of migrating data between applications well know this. If finale works at importing or exporting musicxml without Dolet correctly is more good luck than good management. This is why I am not impressed with Finale.”

    What you are impressed with is completely irrelevant. You have shown no indication that you even know how write music. let alone use musescore or finale. IN fact, unless I see some indication that you have some understanding that you even know music notation, I see no reason to take anything that you say on this subject seriously.

    As far as the musescore developers are concerned, they are indeed free to ignoring the fact that their program can’t import from one of the major commercial programs. IF musescore cant import my scores for processing and then re-export the modified scores back into finale for further processing, then it is of zero utility to me, and no amount of name calling and bloviating on your part is going to change that.

  14. oiaohm says:

    http://www.musicxml.com/software/
    Do you know how Wizard Emeritus said he did not like LilyPond
    LilyPond is an open-source automated music engraving system. It runs on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows. Version 2.8 added a basic MusicXML importer, which has been greatly improved and expanded for version 2.12. Version 2.12 also includes an extensive MusicXML test suite that can be used by other MusicXML developers. This supersedes Guido Amoruso’s earlier xml2ly XSLT stylesheet for translating MusicXML into the LilyPond format.
    Guess what LilyPond maintains the reference test suit for MusicXML. So what has the best MusicXML support.

    This is the reality you want to test if your program is functioning correctly you go get the LilyPond have it render the MusicXML testsuite then have your application render the MusicXML testsuite and where ever does not match is broken.

    So Wizard Emeritus get the problem yet. LilyPond is part of the reference standard. So claiming you will not use a program because it uses LilyPond says you are not interesting in using anything to standard.

  15. oiaohm says:

    Have you look at the dolet plugin lately, Mr. Expert?
    Wizard Emeritus now calling me a Expert.
    http://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/dolet-6-plugin-for-finale/version-history/
    Yes I have do take note of this.
    Finale no longer exports extraneous spread values of zero at the start of crescendos and the end of diminuendos.
    After you add the dolet plugin that uses java so its not exactly fast it prevent Finale from doing different MusicXML standard incompatible action. Big enough in importance to write in version modification.

    This restores features that were dropped in Finale 2014.5 in version 6.6 while making them easier to access and use.
    What did that restore in the most recent version.
    validating against the MusicXML DTD or XSD
    Does finale by itself have a validate MusicXML against the standard files. No Finale does not. Finale 2014.5 with dolet does. So after installing Dolit in Finale you can run standard check against everything Finale itself has generated in Musicxml and start being shocked at the numbers of errors it has made.

    It is shocking how bad compatibility between the two top commercial music scoring programs. It explains why you see places that are all Finale. Places that are Sibelius are more likely to use wider diversity of software because they do have more functional compatibility to use outside applications.

    Finale by itself processes Musicxml fast but its incomplete and broken. Finale with Dolet processes Musicxml exact to standard but is not fast.

    Sibelius without Dolet can import Musicxml perfectly lacks export controls. So to export Sibelius users have to use Dolet so they are able to control exactly what version of Musicxml they get. Advantage for them they only take the performance hit on export unlike finale users who have to take it on import as well.

    Result of this is you want compatibility with top 2 commercial music scoring programs you don’t work on compatibility with Finale or Sibelius but instead on Dolet compatibility its the one with the largest market share in fact.

    So Wizard Emeritus the idea that Open Source developers have to bend over backwards for Finale users is such a bogus idea its not funny. Finale users have to jump through the hoops required for compatibility and put up with the overheads. If you don’t like the overheads work on changing programs.

    The price to pay for the Dolet plugin is registering with http://www.musicxml.com that you can in fact download. So it free to have proper musicxml compatibility instead of finale broken default. The other way you pay for using Dolet is slower importing and exporting but at least importing and exporting that does validate.

    Basically Wizard Emeritus should have no problem using a proper setup when testing importing and exporting if he knows what he is doing.

    So as soon as Wizard Emeritus said that open source software had to have compatibility with finale showed that Wizard Emeritus had not attempted to use finale properly with compatibility with any other software.

    Dr Loser so you did not follow the linked that would have show you that finale is broken and Wizard Emeritus has been talking out his ass the complete time by demanding that FOSS be Finale compatible. Demanding that FOSS be Dolet compatible has some grounds and only those of us who know the field of migrating data between applications well know this. If finale works at importing or exporting musicxml without Dolet correctly is more good luck than good management. This is why I am not impressed with Finale.

  16. Dr Loser says:

    Oh, and Princess?

    Once you have composed that little one-string ditty on your ukulele, do please make sure that it works with Finale and the dolet plug-in.

    You wouldn’t want us to fall about laughing just because you’re an ignorant little swine, would you, now?

  17. Dr Loser says:

    I’m being unfair, actually.

    A one-string ukulele, Fifi? You’d be surprised how much XML a one-string ukulele generates.

    Go on, little feeb. Strum away.

  18. Dr Loser says:

    Dr Loser do note the MusicXML version its 3.0 if you use dolet.

    I don’t use dolet. And why should I? In fact, Princess, I use none of these things. But if I did, I would choose a product based upon whether it works, not upon how many googles I can drag up.

    As for you? You have never used a single one. Your opinion is consequently worthless.

    Of course, you can prove me wrong by supplying a musicXML transcript of, say, sixty four bars of an original composition. Featuring, say, a piano trio or a string quartet.

    I don’t want to tax your expertise too far, Fifi.

  19. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus have you paid for the dolet plugin so you can import musicxml properly?? If not no point attempting to import in to finale until at least a version into the future.”

    Have you look at the dolet plugin lately, Mr. Expert?

  20. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus have you paid for the dolet plugin so you can import musicxml properly?? If not no point attempting to import in to finale until at least a version into the future.

    Some of the integration work issues with rose-garden(this is Linux only) will require using a upto date version of musicxml. Yes finale own saved musicxml that is broken will have to be reopened with finale and re-saved using dolet to in fact get cross application support that works correctly.

    Unless you can in fact make cross application formats you cannot really effectively look at other closed source options as well Wizard Emeritus.

    You were not aware that finale handles damaged MIDI files without alarm or miss handles Musicxml. All these things add up to trouble.

  21. oiaohm says:

    http://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/dolet-6-plugin-for-finale/
    Dr Loser do note the MusicXML version its 3.0 if you use dolet. Now look up publication date of that standard. August 2011 What version is 2014.5 finale doing itself without plugin MusicXML 2.0 from 2008 with some errors so it fairly much does not import anywhere bar finale correctly. MusicXML 3.0 standard lists things that MusicXML 2.0 files should not do as well and you find finale doing them.

    Sibelius has built in import for MusicXML 3.0 export you have to pay for dolet again.

    So its one thing todo MusicXML is but when you are talking 8 years out of date its not funny. All the currently maintained open source software is MusicXML 3.0. Rosegarden, Musescore… to claim to be confirming to MusicXML standard they really cannot go and make broken MusicXML files to make Finale happy. So if you are not aware of this and don’t pay for dolet Finale the import in just will not work right in Finale case will come up wrong. Not that the open source programs made a bad file its Finale itself is broken without third party plugin. The fact you need the same plugin in Finale to go Finale to Sibelius and back tells you something important.

    MusicXML is the way that scores get from desktop applications like Finale and Sibelius to the new wave of mobile applications.
    This statement is true but it glosses over the fact you need a plugin called dolet todo it effectively so that you can produce from either of those programs current version of MusicXML standard or have strange stuff happen at times with different imports.

    Of course attempting to have a MusicXML 3.0 open on MusicXML 2.0 broken system that finale is out box it never going to come out right. Hopefully next version of finale will at long last get up to MusicXML 3.0. Reverse from MusicXML 2.0 on MusicXML 3.0 is fine as long as MusicXML 2.0 file is doing everything by agree interpenetration of that standard(yes this is not finale).

    W3C demo stuck to a very min subset of MusicXML 2.0 no MusicXML 3.0 stuff.

    I included the link with the problem apparently you did not read it carefully.

  22. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Dr Loser when it comes to market share in composing software Sibelius is more users than Finale. Finale is number 2 not number 1.”

    That still does not change the outcome of the discussion about musescore. Try again.

  23. Dr Loser says:

    Dr Loser when it comes to market share in composing software Sibelius is more users than Finale. Finale is number 2 not number 1.

    Accepted. First and second.

    Where is the FLOSS alternative here?

    How does this affect my argument?

    When was the last time you contacted your psychiatrist?

    Why do you somehow believe that this matters?

  24. Dr Loser says:

    Random links regarding MusicXML:

    Finale to Sibelius

    Finale export options (many, including MusicXML)

    MusicXML and W3C

    The last of these, and I quote, says:

    MusicXML is the way that scores get from desktop applications like Finale and Sibelius to the new wave of mobile applications.

    That’s a significant hurdle for you to jump over, Fifi, before you can prove your ignorant ninny little claim that Finale does not “properly” support MusicXML exports.

    Apparently, W3C thinks that it does.

  25. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser when it comes to market share in composing software Sibelius is more users than Finale. Finale is number 2 not number 1.
    Considering that only a putz like you would use Musescore, and that professional musicians overwhelmingly use Finale, Fifi, I don’t see the relevance.
    So as normal this statement is in fact wrong Dr Loser.

  26. Dr Loser says:

    Wizard Emeritus like it or not the case that Finale does not support MusicXML correctly means that Musescore should not be going out if it way to make something that imports into Finale.

    Considering that only a putz like you would use Musescore, and that professional musicians overwhelmingly use Finale, Fifi, I don’t see the relevance.

    It is up to Musescore to export to Finale, not the other way around. The perennial failure of FLOSS: our 1% is better than your 99%!

    Life don’t work that way.

    However, I’m interested, despite your clear ignorance of all things musical.

    What leads you to believe that Finale does not support MusicXML correctly?

    You do, of course, have a set of unit tests to prove this interesting assertion.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

  27. oiaohm says:

    Sorry to tell you this, but if musescore can not do what ever is needed to create MusicXML format that is readable to Finale, it is the problem of the finale developer, if they wish to be of use to finale users.
    Wizard Emeritus like it or not the case that Finale does not support MusicXML correctly means that Musescore should not be going out if it way to make something that imports into Finale. Musescore produces MusicXML files exactly to standard of course into other programs like Sibelius imports Musescore MusicXML files import perfectly.

    As you said Finale problems are with the Finale Developers it not Musescores job to cover up Finale failures. It is also not Sibelius Developer responsibility to cover up Finale failures.

    The reality is you have to treat Musescore the same as if it was Sibelius with Finale.

    Wizard Emeritus basically your core bit of software finale due to it poor quality of import and export basically broken when interface with other commercial software or FOSS software.

    Please note due to Finale issues migration to Sibelius or any of the the other commercial alternatives will be going by Musicxml as well and having issues due to how poor Finale does it. Basically Finale locks it customers in by being incompatible.

    Sibelius in fact wrote plugin for Finale to cover up some of the issue and then charge you for it because they should not fixing stuff up for Finale users for free.

    The fact that finale cannot by it self export Musicxml correctly to standardand by it self cannot import Musicxml correctly to standard means that you can very quickly make the mistake just using finale without the plugin to fix this big issue that the open source stuff cannot use your existing works. Yes it involves spending extra money to cover up the defect.

  28. Dr Loser says:

    Once they do that, then I would be testing musescores ability to generate musicXML output that can be re-imported into Finale.

    And this, of course, is the crucial difference between ignorant amateurs with a chip on their shoulders, like Fifi, and professionals (in this case, a professional musician) who have no such chip.

    The more rabid type of [tone-deaf and musically useless, in this case] amateur FLOSS enthusiast insists that there has to be some sort of mechanism to export a proprietary format into a FLOSS application. So far, so good.

    Normal people want this data exchange to work both ways.

    This is not a popular idea in FLOSS, because once you have migrated to FLOSS, you’re stuck with it.

    Oh, and you’re stuck with what is generally speaking a complete lack of testing.

    You know how you test Musescore against Finale, Fifi? You export from Musescore to Finale and then back again. Then you do a comparison. And for good measure, you do the same test in the opposite direction.

    It isn’t going to happen, is it, Princess?

  29. Dr Loser says:

    I think what you’re missing here, Wiz, is that Fifi has finally discovered XML.

    XML! The answer to all problems! Well, sort of. To paraphrase JMZ, “You have a problem, so you decide to use XML. Now you have two problems.

    It’s rather sweet, really. Fifi has clearly groveled up a couple of rancid irrelevant cites which mutter about interop between such esoteric things as professional audio mixing, professional composition, professional score printing, etc … and has noticed that they all feature XML.

    Oh, my dear! Too, too, exciting!

    Only two little tiny problems.

    1) Fifi has not provided the cites. She is a spiteful little child who has gone on record as being willing to lie and to withhold relevant information, simply to “win the Internetz.”
    2) There’s a little more to data exchange between any two programs than the trivial use of XML.

    The first is inconsequential and simply the result of being a tone-deaf non-musical retard living under a lamp-post out there in the bush.

    The second? I don’t think that Fifi is capable of explaining her approach to the second problem.

  30. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “If you are attempt to import musescore into finale you must do the same as you do with Sibelius and use dotlet with finale. Sibelius and Musescore have more complete musicXML than finale and finale ignore errors and render anyhow makes it appear that the other two are broken when it the reverse.”

    Sorry to tell you this, but if musescore can not do what ever is needed to create MusicXML format that is readable to Finale, it is the problem of the finale developer, if they wish to be of use to finale users.

    Remember, musescore has to be of use to me, now you.

  31. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Basically finale is deceptive. Until this happen all my old files work cool what that file not longer printing like how I printed it years ago and notes are missing what happened. That is what you are risking using finale so people using finale don’t get taken that serous about care if their work is in fact intact or not.”

    Again nice try. IN all but the oldest files (some 26 years old) I have no problem printing old work. IN fact I make it my business to re-save all of my compositions in whatever is the most current version of finale that I am using.

    And again, we are not talking about finale, we are talking about musescore.

  32. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I understand the limitations of the software you are using way better than you. ”

    You have given no indication that you understand anything about music. In fact, I doubt that you even know how to compose music using score notation, let alone how to use a program like Finale. But of course you can prove me wrong by publishing a pdf of one of your creations.

    As far as preserving my work is concerned. Any finished composition is archived on paper, in a pdf, and even in MusicXML, not to mention realized on digital media. I don’t just rely on archiving finale format files at whatever version that they were created.

    ” as you said anything that does not preserve what you have created is no use to you. So by your own statement you should not be using Finale but migrate to Sibelius that will work with you to preserve your work and in fact warn you when something is damaged.

    Nice Try. What I actually said was that a program that can not import existing work is of no use to me. Besides, We are talking about the inadequacies of a particular bit of FOSS software, not your opinions of commercial software which I seriously doubt that you are using or even capable of using.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Once they do that, then I would be testing musescores ability to generate musicXML output that can be re-imported into Finale.
    Wizard Emeritus get the to standard musicxml test suite first and attempt to open that in Finale you will find even the current Finale fails by rendering really badly. In fact finale should be raising alarms that it hitting xml it does not know.

    If you are attempt to import musescore into finale you must do the same as you do with Sibelius and use dotlet with finale. Sibelius and Musescore have more complete musicXML than finale and finale ignore errors and render anyhow makes it appear that the other two are broken when it the reverse.

  34. oiaohm says:

    Nice try – my files from finale 2001 are still readable. I have even been able to read the files from the Original windows 3.1 verion of finale that I have.
    Wizard Emeritus did you not read. Issue is not reading the files. That finale does insanely well because it completely ignores errors. So how many of those original files are damaged and finale did not raise a single alarm and just left out notes as it skipped cleanly over the damaged sections without telling you.

    Basically finale is deceptive. Until this happen all my old files work cool what that file not longer printing like how I printed it years ago and notes are missing what happened. That is what you are risking using finale so people using finale don’t get taken that serous about care if their work is in fact intact or not.

  35. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The sad reality is the programs refusing to import until you fix the file can be in fact doing the right thing. But of course since you are a Finale user who is putting way way too much faith in Finale as it will fail to see the files are damaged when they are Midi and will generate new files that are Midi that are also damaged.”

    The even sadder reality is that Finale imported the files, and once those files are imported and I have chosen the proper conversion parameters, the composition is then worked on in finale. MIDI is never more than an input format to me.

    IF you are lucky, the developers of musescore will get their act together. and do what they should be doing, which is to be able to import or open any standard or common format input from one of the commercial programs.

    Once they do that, then I would be testing musescores ability to generate musicXML output that can be re-imported into Finale.

  36. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “This is the big issue with finale. Your masters can be getting damaged over the years due to bad storage/bad ram and finale is never going to raise the alarm. When you work out a stack of stuff is missing what is kinda to late then you will that finale error ignoring import filters are a pure nightmare.”

    Nice try – my files from finale 2001 are still readable. I have even been able to read the files from the Original windows 3.1 verion of finale that I have.

  37. oiaohm says:

    THe problem is you made an assumption. These files were not created by Finale, they were output by an old sequencer program that I used to create them many years ago. What matters is that I have been able to re-import them time after time into different generations of finale without problem, but your FOSS favorite cant handle them at all.
    Wizard Emeritus so you have never imported those files into Sibelius or equal that would have check that they are in fact to standard and have not been damaged. Finale ignores invalid Midi information. So you import a damaged MIDI file compare produced scores from prior to undamaged Midi file results and notes will be missing. Yes missing notes without a single warning message that Finale had any issues with the file.

    This is why I mentioned the Midi issue. Using midi that imports into Finale as a test on other programs then getting upset when they refuse to import could be getting this completely wrong. The sad reality is the programs refusing to import until you fix the file can be in fact doing the right thing. But of course since you are a Finale user who is putting way way too much faith in Finale as it will fail to see the files are damaged when they are Midi and will generate new files that are Midi that are also damaged.

    When version 3 comes out, I may load it and re-attempt the import.
    The development version of 3 is already out.
    https://musescore.org/en/download#Nightly-versions
    If you are interested in using musescore one day this is the time to even now and again download test report. While developers are actively working on stuff. If the import is broken this is when you have active developers.

    You still dont get it do you, Mr. musical idiot. IF the program will not convert my existing compositions so that I can maintain the chain of my workflow and preserve what I have created, it is of zero use to me.
    Note idiot yourself. What is the point of chain of workflow if it is not be preserved. This is the big issue with finale. Your masters can be getting damaged over the years due to bad storage/bad ram and finale is never going to raise the alarm. When you work out a stack of stuff is missing what is kinda to late then you will that finale error ignoring import filters are a pure nightmare.

    Reality ” preserve what I have created” as you said anything that does not preserve what you have created is no use to you. So by your own statement you should not be using Finale but migrate to Sibelius that will work with you to preserve your work and in fact warn you when something is damaged.

    So really you are the musical idiot I understand the limitations of the software you are using way better than you. I don’t recommend Finale at all due to its import and export issues. Please note Sibelius program is OS X and Windows only. I could suggest a other closed source but they are not as well care for as lots of the open source ones.

  38. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Finale is the audio equal to MS Office exporting modified RTF that none if it competitors could open properly because the modifications were not documented. I don’t see Finale as a program worth any praise due to doing this. ”

    And your assessment of finale or any music program based on such technical nonsense is in the end irrelevant. Speaking as a trained composer I can say that as a score creation tool and a playback tool Musescore does not bring anything to the table that would make it worthwhile to move to from finale.

    And that is something that would never change no matter what platform it is run on.

  39. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” So were you attempt to import Finale buggy midi files into Musicscore because you were too incompetent to know that these could not even be used with its commercial competitor because Finale midi export is broken and mostly works with other parts because those parts are just auto ignoring defective instructions. ”

    THe problem is you made an assumption. These files were not created by Finale, they were output by an old sequencer program that I used to create them many years ago. What matters is that I have been able to re-import them time after time into different generations of finale without problem, but your FOSS favorite cant handle them at all.

    Your claim the next version of musescore will fix the problem is concerned is bunk. You have no way of knowing what is fixed, and I am not interested in waiting for musescore’s developers to get their act together. When version 3 comes out, I may load it and re-attempt the import. IN he meanwhile I am creating my music.

    ” Yes this is why I don’t like Finale is really simple to be blaming the programs you are attempting to import Finale exported stuff into when it Finale itself that is bust.”

    You still dont get it do you, Mr. musical idiot. IF the program will not convert my existing compositions so that I can maintain the chain of my workflow and preserve what I have created, it is of zero use to me. I am not going to manually re-enter finished compositions, nor am I going to waste my time “collaborating” FOSS style with its creators to get something working. Musescore does not bring anything to the table that is so much better that what I have that it is worth the hassle of converting to it.

    If you think that my rejection is unfair, tough. That is how it works in the real world. If a critical program function fails or creates unacceptable results, and that program brings nothing else that makes it worthwhile to work around the failed function, then the party is over, period.

  40. oiaohm says:

    Finale is the audio equal to MS Office exporting modified RTF that none if it competitors could open properly because the modifications were not documented. I don’t see Finale as a program worth any praise due to doing this.

    As I said if you were a Sibelius user in most cases I could be trusting that you would be testing the open source programs with files to standard. Its a rare issue that something Sibelius produces is not to standard those cases normally the standard happened to be vague in that area and it needs fixing. So primary tool is going to lead to you rejection packages when you should not.

  41. oiaohm says:

    As far as musescore is concerned, it has continually blown up trying to import some midi files that I had been using finale to engrave. I had been importing this files into various versions of Finale over the years without problems.
    Wizard Emeritus you mean stall and become completely non responsive. This is fixed in Musescore 3.
    https://musescore.org/en/user/101731/blog/2016/06/02/developing-musescore-3.0-musescore-gets-faster
    Was also fixed in native audio decanted versions of Linux by tweaking the scheduler. Of course the scheduler tweaks could not be done inside Linux VM due to them being kinda dirty using real-time modes in particular places.

    Unless you have experience using Finale 2014.5 XML export capability, I will treat this statement of yours as suspect. Do you have some concrete examples for Finale 2014.5?
    Mind you Finale 2014.5 will suffer from what all the past versions have. Some of finale problem is it in fact does not include information at all that is meant to be in Musicxml format.
    http://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/dolet-6-plugin-for-finale/
    Really Wizard Emeritus to get Finale 2014.5 to import Musicxml properly you have to use a third party plugin and manually enter information that was in fact embedded in the Musicxml file. Of course when Finale 2014.5 exports that embedded information is gone. The reason why the other programs open Musicxml better is they have proper support for it. So again to export from Finale 2014.5 to proper Musicxml it is use dolet again. Why Finale 2014.5 own provided Musicxml stuff is busted. Yes 2014.5 is a improvement over prior versions but it has a long long way to go before it decent.

    dolet plugin for Sibelius in fact cuts out some of the Sibelius to standard Musicxml data to that Finale does not barf. I don’t find finale support of standard formats anywhere near acceptable yet. I really do expect Musescore 3 to be out before finale gets properly working Musicxml support.

    By the way do check your midi files something to note the only way to export/import between Sibelius and Finale is using Dolet with Musicxml because Finale generated midi files do contain invalid instructions that cause Sibelius report error after error after error about malformed midi and if you look up spec they are truly malformed. So were you attempt to import Finale buggy midi files into Musicscore because you were too incompetent to know that these could not even be used with its commercial competitor because Finale midi export is broken and mostly works with other parts because those parts are just auto ignoring defective instructions. Yes this is why I don’t like Finale is really simple to be blaming the programs you are attempting to import Finale exported stuff into when it Finale itself that is bust.

    Now a Dolet exported musicxml into Musicscore giving performance trouble at this stage would be expected unless you are under Linux. This is where the problems start issues that show up on OS X and Windows sometimes have perfectly functional work around if the same program is under Linux instead. This is why the idea I have X program and you have X program so there is no advantage for me to change OS can be completely wrong. OS is a big factor at times if a program can perform decently or absolute crap.

  42. oiaohm says:

    You’re going to have to multiplex those 30 channels with a proper hard RT OS — no version of desktop Linux will cut it there, although Wind River (commercial developers of RTLinux) might.
    Dr Loser this shows how much of a idiot you are. Core is in the mainline Linux kernel has a real-time. Accessed by the cgroup rt mode. So there is a proper RT OS hidden in the mainline Linux kernel. This is the difference. There not a proper RT OS hidden inside OS X or Windows. Of course RTLinux from wind river is designed for more complex problems. 30 channels multiplexing is a constant predictable load level. What wind rivers RTLinux is designed for is unpredictable flow rates like real-time motor controller.

    https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/CONFIG_PREEMPT_RT_Patch was used by Linux Audio distributions so they could multiplex massive number of channels. No longer required because enough of that basic functionality is mainline.

    Multiplexing doesn’t come for free. There’s a cost to the network stack. There’s a cost to the scheduler. Merely providing pre-emptive hard RT has a cost.
    FIFO RT is used in the Linux kernel main network stack. Of course it does not come for free if the Linux kernel network stack was not designed to multiplex it would not be possible. This is the problem with suggesting the wind river rtLinux real-time mode. Since wind rivers real-time mode is design for motor control and so on it not in fact designed to process stuff on network at real-time. So different problem different kernel.

    These tasks and handlers execute when they need to execute no matter what Linux is doing.
    This is the direct behaviour of a hard RT. So you are cutting network stack of Linux off from CPU time by attempt to use wind rivers RTLinux for this.

    So the one thing you cannot do with a proper hard RT OS is in fact multi-plex network audio streams. Because you need a FIFO RT for the network stack as dominate that is not what a proper hard RT OS is designed todo. Yes the mainline Linux kernel has the perfect mix between hard and soft RT to-do this nightmare.

    Easiest to solve is the networking connection. We’re already using wired Ethernet, so we don’t have to deal with any problems with WiFi. Hoorah!
    After this Dr Loser goes into to complete bull. Stage recording does not use Wifi because it too random. Something about AVB and TSN is neither leave local lan ever. In fact they are normally 1 central switch this is about reducing down cabling and interference.

    I believe that the bandwidth requirement for “high-definion audio streaming” is around 320kbps. If not, do your own division.
    That is in fact wrong for raw high-definion audio recording/streaming. It is no where close.
    24-bits per sample sampled at 192,000Hz (192Khz)
    4,608,000 bits per second
    4,608,000 divided into bytes(by 8) then kilobytes(by 1024) =562.50KB per second

    I put the maths right in my past post and Dr Loser the idiot cannot read. 320kbps is with some form of compression like mp3 that reduces a raw 562.50KBs/4,608kbps down to that. Compression is time overhead that under mines low latency. Raw is 4,608kbps. Now why is it x4 is 3 mic inputs are for noise cancel. Same way raw photos are larger so is raw audio. So you are looking at Mp3 320kbps is basically 14/1.

    So the raw figure requirement with noise removal processing possible is
    4 channels (quadraphonic) of 24-bit@192Khz=2.197MB per second (131.835MB per minute)
    So here is Dr Loser quoting what you send out across internet. Compression is in fact add a 5 second delay this is kinda required in case there is a major compression goof and the audio has to be re-compressed.

    So I gave you all the correct math values and you had to go off and make up your own figures again. You making a master you don’t want compression formula errors ruining your chances of doing it.

    Dr Loser if you cannot get the basics on how big raw digital audio is you did not have a clue of understanding how much of a problem doing a proper recording raw to make masters from.

    Before you get smart and say I will use a 44khz mic little problem 196khz digital microphones have kinda become standard and they send raw no compression and no replay so a lost packet is lost for good.

  43. Dr Loser says:

    Dr Loser sorry idiot nit picking.
    http://apps.linuxaudio.org/wiki/jack_latency_tests

    Latency is define by the total overhead. Low latency audio is a battle against everything not use Latency alown. 10GBE is for number of channels.

    Not nit-picking at all, Fifi. The number of channels is not germane to low latency in any meaningful sense. Therefore your nitwit claim that 10Gb Ethernet is a requirement is nothing more than that: a nitwit claim.

    As a thought experiment, however, and assuming that everything else is optimal (a higher standard than “practical,” which is still too high for you to reach, I think), you should be able to pack around 30 of these “channels” of yours into a 10Gb Ethernet connection. I believe that the bandwidth requirement for “high-definion audio streaming” is around 320kbps. If not, do your own division.

    Is this a practical goal? Not really. You’re going to have to multiplex those 30 channels with a proper hard RT OS — no version of desktop Linux will cut it there, although Wind River (commercial developers of RTLinux) might. You’re going to have to provide the 10 Gb/s from storage, unless you happen to have 30 live bands sitting around your PC — a different problem, which I’ll leave to one side, although with a typical SATA throughput of 3Gb/s, it’s non-trivial.

    Multiplexing doesn’t come for free. There’s a cost to the network stack. There’s a cost to the scheduler. Merely providing pre-emptive hard RT has a cost.

    Still and all, as I say, the question of whether you’re using a bog-standard 1 Gb or a 10 Gb Ethernet connection is not really relevant. So let’s proceed to the real latency issues.

    Easiest to solve is the networking connection. We’re already using wired Ethernet, so we don’t have to deal with any problems with WiFi. Hoorah!

    Obviously a VPN is out — it adds unacceptable variance to the latency. Oh, and make sure that there’s no NAT at either end, or at least that there’s a direct and sustainable way of tunneling through it. And while we’re at it, you’ll probably want to deliver your stream through an Akamai edge server, or something like it. Ideally you’d want to be collocated with your friendly local telephone exchange — you get a much better chance of your stream being passed reliably and quickly across the fabric of the DSLAM or other switch.

    You probably don’t want to be using compression of any kind — more variance to the latency, more of a burden on the caches at each end.

    You want to be sure that your ISP giving you the appropriate QoS level, which is going to cost.

    You don’t want to be broadcasting half-way across the world. Point-to-point fibre gives you an added delay of 48ms, and you’re not going to get point-to-point. More delay, more variance to the latency.

    And I haven’t even mentioned the hardware driver at the receiving end, which is probably the most important impediment to reliable low latency.

    In short, Fifi, your dream that there is somehow a Magic Pink Unicorn solution on offer from some dismal little Linux software hack is just that … an irrelevant dream. The entirety of the network infrastructure between the transmitter and the receiver has an impact that completely dominates any trivial little gains you will somehow make by fiddling with a codec. Which is why people pay big bucks for the infrastructure, and don’t waste their time with Linux boosters.

    Not quite as irrelevant as this stupid claim about 10Gb Ethernet, though.

  44. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus to be truthful finale does not impress me much. ”

    Neither did denemo, especially when I read this:

    ” If LilyPond’s typesetting is not what you are looking for and you need to tweak much of the music then LilyPond’s typesetting is not for you.”

    I do not like lilypond output, so that was the end of denemo.

    As far as musescore is concerned, it has continually blown up trying to import some midi files that I had been using finale to engrave. I had been importing this files into various versions of Finale over the years without problems.

    “Particularly when you have to use musicXML standard format. denemo and musescore does a lot better on that.”

    Unless you have experience using Finale 2014.5 XML export capability, I will treat this statement of yours as suspect. Do you have some concrete examples for Finale 2014.5?

    “Basically this says you are stuck in your ways and will not try the stuff properly because you don’t want to change. Then will attempt to make out that the stuff you are using is the only way when they are not.”

    You can believe whatever bullshit you want. The fact that in order for me to change I must see a benefit in doing so. There is simply no benefit to me that would make me want to go through the headaches of changing. Nothing magical is going to make either Musescore, or denemo as polished or as capable as what I use, no matter what you say or how I test them.

    As far as my making the commercial tools that I use out to be the better way, This whole stream began when I asked for Robert Pogson to provide me with music tools that were as good as what I used now. He could not do so, and you have not done so either. All you continue to do hard sell me on composing tools that don’t really do anything better for me as a composer, and call me names when I say thanks but no thanks.

    IF you think that that is going to get you anywhere with anybody, you are mistaken.

  45. oiaohm says:

    http://www.denemo.org/finale
    Wizard Emeritus to be truthful finale does not impress me much. Particularly when you have to use musicXML standard format. denemo and musescore does a lot better on that.

    Now if you were a commercial Sibelius user I would have less if a issue. At least Sibelius knows how to process standard formats correctly. The fact you are a finale user means you have locked yourself in to using a program that cannot export properly so this means you will make incorrect excuses that open source stuff is broken when its not because finale is broken even when compared to other commercial software out there..

    Based on my experience, NOTHING available exclusively in the Linux domain is anywhere need compelling enough to make me change.
    Of course denemo and musescore might not appear exclusively Linux but there are features with them that only exist when on Linux.

    You can talk until you are blue in the face about Linux Audio, it will not change the fact that nothing available is so much better that it would cause me to change programs or platforms. That is simple reality.
    Basically this says you are stuck in your ways and will not try the stuff properly because you don’t want to change. Then will attempt to make out that the stuff you are using is the only way when they are not.

    Sorry you tested Linux software wrong got caught doing that. Now coming back with a list containing stuff where I have given you other advice.

  46. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” Lot of Music compose programs are design around the idea of low latency possible so what is showing on screen and what is coming out speakers/headphones under Linux is very closely aligned.”

    You still don’t seem to get it. For me to “try” Linux based composing tools, they would have to do something so much better than what I have now as to make it worth my while. Based on my experience, NOTHING available exclusively in the Linux domain is anywhere need compelling enough to make me change.

    IN my current working environment. I have used Finale as a performing engine driving multiple instances in-memory samplers from Garritan(Aria Player) ,The Conservatoire Collection (Kontact 5 player) ,Vienna Symphonic Library (VSL Ensemble player) and East-West Symphonic Choirs (Play sampler) in compositions up to 90 minutes long It has has no problem keeping the displayed score updated and synced to the music.

    You can talk until you are blue in the face about Linux Audio, it will not change the fact that nothing available is so much better that it would cause me to change programs or platforms. That is simple reality.

  47. oiaohm says:

    And when it comes to this kind of composing workflow, none of the music notation available in the FOSS domain programs come close. In fact they can barely handle the notation portion of what it do, let along rendering it back in realistic sound.
    Wizard Emeritus as you said you tested these programs under a Virtual machine.

    http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/en/chapter-2.html
    Even something like rosegarden depends on real-time in different places. If your virtual up of course the sound is never ever going to be realistic. So as long as you are not going to put the applications on bare metal there is no point giving you good quality samples. In that map lets list all the parts that use Linux kernel real-time code some that will not like a virtual machine.
    1) ALSA Kernel driver to start off with.
    2) Jackaudio
    3) Different synthesis engines.
    So basically your testing method its never going to work.

    So like it or not “low latency audio” limitations directly apply to attempt to use Linux for even what appears to be basic programs. Lot of Music compose programs are design around the idea of low latency possible so what is showing on screen and what is coming out speakers/headphones under Linux is very closely aligned.

    So saying that low latency has nothing to do with you problem again is showing you have absolutely no clue how the Linux audio systems are hooked up under the different Linux programs. In fact some of the compose systems are harder when the low latency audio side is playing up VM because they are attempting to play the notes as you compose them so causing GUI stalling. Basically VM to run particular classes of Linux programs is a no go. Audio composing is one of those classes.

  48. oiaohm says:

    You do actually understand which component(s) of a computer platform defines “latency,” don’t you?

    Clue: it’s not the frequency at which the bits arrive.
    Dr Loser sorry idiot nit picking.
    http://apps.linuxaudio.org/wiki/jack_latency_tests

    Latency is define by the total overhead. Low latency audio is a battle against everything not use Latency alown. 10GBE is for number of channels.

    Really the frequency that the bits can be transmitted at is a factor. Please note the prior name of TSN. AVB Audio, Video bridge. Not only would these system be designed to bring in real-time audio but video synced with the real-time audio. Great if you are making film clip of your work.

    Start thinking some one start recording in multi locations at 192khz.

    24-bits per sample sampled at 192,000Hz (192Khz)
    4,608,000 bits per second
    4,608,000 divided into bytes(by 8) then kilobytes(by 1024) =562.50KB per second

    This is per channel. 120 players lets say Ok that looks fine 120×562.50KB. But that is not the case there is average of 4 channels per player to get a sold workable recording. 1G connection is 125 MB/s does not cut it at all.
    4 channels (quadraphonic) of 24-bit@192Khz=2.197MB per second (131.835MB per minute)
    Reason for this is to be able to if required filter out background noise. So only 59 artists to a 1G connection and that is if you are only handling audio and that is without allowing network protocol overheads and absolutely not using that connection for anything else.

    Add in a person wanting insane recording at 384 kHz sample rate what is basically double the per channel rate. So 1G connection is only 30 artists and that is optimistic if someone asks for insanity. 20 connection limit is only be able to properly record 8 people. So hopefully you like small bands if you are using Windows.

    10GBE becomes critical because a large complex recording is going to want more than 60 recording points.. More than one can also become critical to send to high speed storage. So you may have a 10GBE for all the recording devices and a 40GBE for writing down to storage. Why the 10GBE for the audio might be using quite a low over head and storage protocols can be down right heavy.

    Remember thunderbolt port on OS X machines is not only for the high speed networking its also for you added on storage.

    Dr Loser can you see it now 1GBE is way too small. 10GBE comes you bare min to get stuff done. OS X can get to bare min but then you start running into trouble with the thunderbolt 3 port of not providing enough transfer to record process and save.

    Please note jackaudio on Linux is tested up to 32000 channels at 192khz 24bit. In other words can truly fill more than 1 100GBE connection if you so wish but that is cluster processing.

    This is the problem Linux low latency audio system tested capabilities is absolutely scary huge. If you are pushing the limits of what the Linux systems are tested up to I really don’t think I want to know what you are doing. OS X and Windows you both will run into limits of there designs stuffing up your audio recordings.

    40Gbps might sound like a lot in thunderbolt 3. Incoming volume of data after processing can multiply.
    1 copies if the channels not modified to be stored.
    2 copies with modifications as per person in room adjustments these are done real time and feed to the persons headset and stored.
    3 video data of what was happening.
    All of this stuff has to be pulled off with the lowest latency possible. Of course I can add more points on how the volume of data to handle is just multiplying. If your system is not big enough you just have to cut corners.

    Dr Loser if low latency digital audio was just about latency it would be one thing. Reality is super effort lifting shifting and modifying and storing of data in very short time frames. Yes CPU limits, Ram Limits, Network limits, Connection limits all come into play. Every bottle neck in hardware will be hit one way or another. No single computer part can be marked as a latency causing all-own point other than the limitations of the speed of light what means longer your wiring the worse your latency.

    Basically Dr Loser nit picking on latency showed you did not understand the problem to be able to record for the size orchestra he is wishing for require some quite huge hardware particularly when you get a person who has what we call HZ idiotic. Where they want larger and large HZ value on recordings even that no human can in fact here the difference.

    Please note that I mentioned 10GBE on motherboard is 3 times faster response than 10GBE as a card even if both contain the same chip-set. The issue is wire length. Add on cable that that thunder bolt is this does not get better. Electricity speed through wires is not something we can change that much. So your real-time audio in and out for recording you want as much as possible on the motherboard as close as possible to everything else. Each extra bit of distance counts. Basically hey we have X port we can just plug that on basically does not work. Not only does thunderbolt add more cable difference it adds delay having to travel though the thunderbolt protocol at both ends. So OS X hardware design is not designed for heavy digital audio low latency recording.

    The idea of Ethernet recording devices 1. Reduce induction causing nose. 2 reduce over all length of cable required.

    Dr Loser basically when you understand length of travel aligns to over all latency you look at the OS X items and you very quickly notice they are not designed to keep that as short as possible for digital recording. Server class motherboard for Linux is a more suitable match as the travel distances can all be kept shorter. Add in volume of data that needs processing and very quickly it comes clear how far short OS X machines are to being up to the job.

  49. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Really come on you have never tried the Linux software properly.”

    Yes I have, and as of now it is it is inferior to what I use.

    “it was designed to use low latency audio to reduce delay between user action and audio response.”

    Let me try this again: the front end software that I do all of my work in is what counts for me. I often work in multiple instruments, sometimes and entire orchestra at the same time. Ad-Hoc playback only occurs when I need to check the music that I already hear in my head. All of your babbling about “low latency audio” is not relevant to what I am doing. I compose directly into the notation program.

    And when it comes to this kind of composing workflow, none of the music notation available in the FOSS domain programs come close. In fact they can barely handle the notation portion of what it do, let along rendering it back in realistic sound.

    So please stop babbling at me about “real time Audio” when you haven’t a clue of what my composing workflow is, Mr. musical idiot.

  50. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus how many Linux composing suites use real-time audio back end jackaudio.

    Nothing that exists in the linux domain is not even as capable as what I am using now, and no amount of your insistence babbling that I “don’t know” linux audio is going to change that.
    Really come on you have never tried the Linux software properly.

    Since Linux runs very well in a virtual machine, the simplest thing for you to do would be to run windows on your music making machine and leave Linux in the VM.
    Most of the Linux software for Music Composing is totally VM incompatible because it was designed to use low latency audio to reduce delay between user action and audio response. So its not babbling at all you are making statements over and over again that shows you have absolutely understanding of what the Linux Audio stuff demands. This means you have never really tried the Linux software properly to understand what it can and cannot do. So make up a stack of excuses why it not possible.

  51. Dr Loser says:

    Ummm, Fifi?

    What’s all this gibberish about requiring 10Gb Ethernet for low latency audio?

    You do actually understand which component(s) of a computer platform defines “latency,” don’t you?

    Clue: it’s not the frequency at which the bits arrive.

  52. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus really idiot off the thunderbolt 2 ports you cannot in fact use the full 10GBE speed. Not the 10GBE speed required for low latency audio. Why to use full 10GBE speed you need direct bus to cpu indirect busses are shot too much overhead added by them”

    I was not the idiot who made that blanket statement to “forget” 10gigE under OS X, your did. save the rest of the baloney for someone who believes in your expertise – I don’t.

    And once again you keep going on about how I don’t “know” linux audio. Linux audio is not relevant to my workflow. I am using my desktop as a composing workstation to create the content, and as part of the creation process I have the ability to play it back. Any post processing that I may need is out of scope to what I have been discussing. The simple fact remains that all of the major software packages in this area are available only for OS X and windows. I have invested in hardware that runs window, so that is what I run my software on. Nothing that exists in the linux domain is not even as capable as what I am using now, and no amount of your insistence babbling that I “don’t know” linux audio is going to change that.

    Needless to say, your insults fall on deaf ears, Mr. musical idiot!

  53. oiaohm says:

    Put briefly, the only way to run more than one scheduler in a single Linux kernel — something that only a lunatic would want to do in the first place — is to take advantage of the sub-classing of processes as
    Dr Loser LOLOL idiot have absolutely no understanding.

    Low latency audio. In fact has sections running using real-time scheduler with user interface applications in a different one. Once you start talking about high level audio work you are talking about lunatics at times. And it surprising how stable it is on bare metal installs.
    https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/Cgroups
    See here it in use.

    As your cite suggests, the result would be terrifically unstable, and I would strongly advise people not to try it.
    Too late to suggest that Dr Loser. The fact that it is this mode can be terrifically unstable is why once you mix it with a virtual machine messing with timings things are going to explode badly.
    https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Notes/9.0/
    This also shows how nuts audio guys are. 384 kHz sample rate has to be supported because some people think this is a good rate to record music at even that ever tests says we cannot hear the difference between 44khz and 192kHz so what is the point of consuming even more disc space.

    However, in theory, it would allow one scheduler that is optimized for RT to coexist with another scheduler that is optimized for FIFO.
    I think you better shut up because you just made a idiot statement here. FIFO in the Linux kernel is a RT scheduler so a FIFO scheduler is optimised for RT just its operation mode is FIFO. RT Deadline with RT FIFO coexiting does happen inside the Linux kernel with CFS and the like for non real-time applications. So its nothing strange to have 3 to 4 different cpu/task schedulers operating at the one time inside the Linux kernel when you are doing low latency audio. Welcome to pure evil that hates virtual machines. This is why every time Wizard Emeritus says I want to use some Linux audio application I will VM it is such a idiot statement. The design of the Linux kernel and how Linux audio software works means bare metal install is required.

  54. oiaohm says:

    Now who is showing their incompetence. 10Gig Ethernet is added to a Mac Pro via class system via expansion chassis that hangs off that macs thunderbolt 2 ports. 10Gig ethernet connectivity is supported in windows 10 right now.
    Wizard Emeritus really idiot off the thunderbolt 2 ports you cannot in fact use the full 10GBE speed. Not the 10GBE speed required for low latency audio. Why to use full 10GBE speed you need direct bus to cpu indirect busses are shot too much overhead added by them.

    10G ethernet cards work in windows 10 but the 20 connection self dossing effect of Windows 10 exists no matter how big of a network card you put in.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-xeon-e5-2600-v3-haswell-ep,3932-3.html
    March 6, 2012 notice something triple transfer speeds of 10GBE by bringing it on to the motherboard. At 10GBE transfer rates are badly harmed by extra cabling. So even from 2012 it was known doing low latency 10GBE network was going to be impossible using thunderbolt 3. Sorry only way to-do true low latency 10GBE is in fact have it feature built on the motherboard. Same is true with 40GBE.

    Really have you never looked at what the 10GBE+ cards look like and what they require to perform well. This is horible reality 10GBE network traffic in small packet low latency usage consumes 40GBE equal of PCIe bus traffic. Basically one 10GBE port driven to max consumes every bit of a thunderbolt 3 connection. So no space for thunderbolt connected monitors or hard-drives or anything else. Now if you want to turn over 2 10GBE or a 40GBE for low latency audio feeds you are dead in the water with OS X even turning over 1 10GBE for low latency audio you will have trouble due to lack of bandwidth from time to time.

    Since Linux runs very well in a virtual machine, the simplest thing for you to do would be to run windows on your music making machine and leave Linux in the VM.
    This shows you don’t know the network traffic issue. Running even Linux inside a Hyper-v under windows is network crippled. Now if you running your complete computer inside ESXi maybe then it workable if you know how to tweak it settings. Of course this is putting Linux directly under Windows.

    Sorry the claims that Linux runs very will in a virtual machine is only true if the virtual machine is Xen, ESXi, KVM or something else Linux based particular when it comes to these networking issues. Basically here is Wizard Emeritus attempting to lie his way out.

    Basically this is the same lie Wizard Emeritus keeps on repeating that is not true. VM and Linux do match up for good performance but its never VM running inside Windows or OS X when you are pushing the network limits like low latency.

    Networking is where Linux rules. Advanced audio hardware these days is heavily network driven.

    https://lwn.net/Articles/629155/
    You know this example you pointed to for 100GBE network being trouble Wizard Emeritus. The way you simulate for 100GBE large packet system load is with a 10GBE network card is with small packets or exactly what low latency network audio does.

    So since you are a smart ass who has no clue what the drive requirements of low latency network audio is you thought you were pointing to where 100GBE is trouble. Really it shows why it snaps thunderbolt 3 to bits.

    By the way once you get to doing low latency network audio on Linux you end up with jackaudio and equal servers having to run in real-time priority mode. Why anything else is way too slow. Now Linux kernel not directly on the hardware itself but inside a virtual machine guess what the real-time priority mode is negatively effected to the point of break it without very careful work. Windows its not a critical because windows never pushing the hardware to the absolute limit. OS X pushes the hardware it has to the absolute limit but its let down by the thunderbolt layers of abstraction adding latency and even thunderbolt 3 being short on bandwidth to cope with it.

    Sorry Wizard Emeritus low latency audio is absolutely a case where VM Linux is not an option. VM Windows is a option because its low latency in audio is not as full on and it network stack does collapse in a heap if you do attempt to truly push high volume low latency audio through it.

    By the way if you have only ever used Linux audio programs inside a VM you would have had crappy audio from time to time because it does not have access to stable real-time it requires when you push the limits of them. The fact that Wizard Emeritus keep on stating Linux inside a VM is good enough is why I also know that Wizard Emeritus has absolutely no clue what Linux audio can do and how much resources it in fact requires to do everything.

    Linux Audio fully functional truly does equal bare metal install any other install option has crippled it in one way or another.

  55. Dr Loser says:

    How to run two cpu/task schedulers on a single Linux kernel.
    https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/scheduler/sched-rt-group.txt
    Yes a real-time and a generic at the same time.

    Pathetically misguided and ignorant as usual, Fifi. And as usual, you haven’t read your own cite — which does not, in fact, offer any sort of support to running more than one scheduler in the same kernel. What it does describe is as follows (amongst several other mis-features):

    Fiddling with these settings can result in an unstable system, the knobs are
    root only and assumes root knows what he is doing.

    The constraint on the period is that a subgroup must have a smaller or
    equal period to its parent. But realistically its not very useful _yet_
    as its prone to starvation without deadline scheduling.

    NOTE: the above example is not fully implemented yet. We still
    lack an EDF scheduler to make non-uniform periods usable.

    I found your silly little deadline of 24 hours risible, by the way. You will note that I cited sched.h as preliminary evidence that I know what I am talking about.

    Put briefly, the only way to run more than one scheduler in a single Linux kernel — something that only a lunatic would want to do in the first place — is to take advantage of the sub-classing of processes as
    a) SCHED_OTHER
    b) SCHED_FIFO or
    c) SCHED_RR.
    I can conceive of a small “scheduler shim” that partitions the wait queue between two sets — (a) and (b), and (c) — and this would, in fact, allow you to run two “actual schedulers” on the same single kernel. As your cite suggests, the result would be terrifically unstable, and I would strongly advise people not to try it.

    However, in theory, it would allow one scheduler that is optimized for RT to coexist with another scheduler that is optimized for FIFO. All one would have to do is to write the relevant scheduler shim in C, spin up an experimental kernel, and Bob’s Your Uncle.

    With the single small caveat that Uncle Bob is not, in fact, capable of writing such a thing in C.

    Nor, in fact, are you, Fifi.

  56. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus find me a OS X machine with 10G or larger network connection. Guess what it does not have it. Attempt to have windows 10 operate with a 10G or larger network card forget it the 20 limit gets hit all the time.”

    Now who is showing their incompetence. 10Gig Ethernet is added to a Mac Pro via class system via expansion chassis that hangs off that macs thunderbolt 2 ports. 10Gig ethernet connectivity is supported in windows 10 right now.

    Interestingly enough, supporting 100Gig ethernet on linux as part of the kernel is apparently quite a challenge

    https://lwn.net/Articles/629155/

    But all of this is irrelevant to music making in general of course and completely irrelevant to the task that I am performing.

    “Wizard Emeritus is a bottom end idiot.”

    So now having no arguments left you start with insults. Of course coming from a linux troll who has shown every indication of being a musical idiot as well, such pronouncements are irrelevant.

    The bottom line is that I have not been talking about audio, but about the tools of music composition and related rendering and playback packages. For workflow related to those tasks I am using among the best the best tools available. I am not losing out on anything by running my music software on top of windows 10. I can create music and hear my compositions. Finale allows me play back using up to 128 Virtual polyphonic instruments on a regular basis. This is actually more of an orchestra than I could muster when I actually had access to real performers.

    More importantly, anyone with a windows desktop and the money to license the software can do the same. On the other hand, the only way that you would ever be able to use these packages in question, assuming you licensed them, would be to somehow run windows as an OS. Since Linux runs very well in a virtual machine, the simplest thing for you to do would be to run windows on your music making machine and leave Linux in the VM.

  57. luvr says:

    Robert Pogson wrote about Dr Loser, “You are an idiot I guess. I see no other explanation for your behaviour.”

    Well, I guess his obsession with red leather mini-skirts got him so frustrated that it is affecting his mental abilities. The “good” news, then, is that, while he keeps wasting his time blabbering here, at least he won’t be doing any real harm–particularly to those woman that he wants to see get in to (and, presumably, subsequently out of) a red leather mini-skirt.

  58. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus find me a OS X machine with 10G or larger network connection. Guess what it does not have it. Attempt to have windows 10 operate with a 10G or larger network card forget it the 20 limit gets hit all the time.

    If this is the best that you can do, then most of my points must have hit home. Thats fine with me, I’ve made my point, and you Linux troll are full of it as usual.
    No the truth of the matter you are full of it and don’t know it. OS X audio users are forced to the Linux/Windows hybrid because OS X hardware has a upper limit. Windows 7-10 users due to EULA connection limits also has a hardware limit. So the only thing that works is the hybrid.

    The reality Wizard Emeritus you are being discrimination against the ones using hibrid yourself. Like it or not you never had a point against Linux with audio. Because top audio is Linux/Windows hybrid. Next level down is OS X. The two bottom of barrel is Windows on its own and Linux on it own for different reasons. Linux on it own can run the big complex network driven audio set-ups. Windows has more closed source options but cannot drive the big complex network driven audio setups. OS X can drive the complex network audio setups more but its limited due to hardware limitations.

    So choosing Windows as a Audio platform you have given up something. To choose Linux as a audio platform you have to give up a different something. Choose OS X is choose middle of field not exceptional. Now having to build your sound fonts from raw and having all the tools todo that that is price of the Linux solution but able to use all audio hardware inside reason. Price of the Windows solution is unable to drive particular classes of audio hardware at all because they demand more connections than the desktop version of windows can in fact provide or is unstable because you are using server edition of windows that the software was never properly tested with. Price of the OS X solution unable to drive particular classes audio hardware to its full means.

    OS X being middle of road is why most music makers use OS X. The top end guys using windows will also be using Linux to fix windows limitations and then you have a stack of bottom end idiots who will attempt to argue that Windows is suitable for audio production.

    Wizard Emeritus is a bottom end idiot.

  59. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus really you have already admitted that you were not aware that Linux had commercial audio software. So you cannot say that its better than everything in the Linux Domain because you already proved you don’t know what that is.”

    If this is the best that you can do, then most of my points must have hit home. Thats fine with me, I’ve made my point, and you Linux troll are full of it as usual.

  60. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser idiots advantage you stated SSD in your question. CPU/Task schedulers are not effected by SSD. IO schedulers are effected by SSD. So your idiot written question like it or not was about the IO schedulers what I answered because you include a reference to SSD more than anything else. If you are going to ask vague incorrect worded question expect different answers to what you asked. Now go on and answer how to use two different network schedulers at the same time. Remember you still have 3 more to answer. Or will you admit you asked a very badly worded question that you should not have asked that poorly worded in the first place.

  61. oiaohm says:

    So then, Robert. You are challenged, both by myself and my tardy little friend oiaohm, to provide a dual-scheduler solution for your Linux server.
    Dr Loser I provided the duel IO scheduler that means I did answer it. You did not state type of scheduler in your question you idiot. 24 hours have past.

    How to run two cpu/task schedulers on a single Linux kernel.
    https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/scheduler/sched-rt-group.txt
    Yes a real-time and a generic at the same time.

    You’ve sunk to new depths of brain-dead depravity, Fifi. That’s basically the question I asked, but with a single wrinkle. The wrinkle being that you specify a single Linux kernel.
    No idiot I answered the question you asked and rewrote the question locked it to one type of scheduler with one particular answer instead of 6 as you idiot asked Dr Loser. IN future if asking these questions be more exact. The answer was not pointing at a source file but to a document file included in the source code. The source you pointed does not include the code that allows you to enable two schedulers at a time. Read the RT Cgroup bit carefully have both schedulers enabled is only half the problem. The RT scheduler has to be told to claim a particular percentage of CPU time or it sits their and does nothing. Yes this can be supper fun why have the processes I put in a RT cgroup frozen solid yep you forgot to allocate RT scheduler any cpu time.

    So you need to point to something covering /proc/sys/kernel/sched_rt_runtime_us Yes the sched rt files contains the answer not the generic sched header file in fact that you gave that shows you did not know the answer you told me the hint to the answer is in that file. There is nothing about the fact you need to assign cpu time to get two cpu/task schedulers working with each other in that header file you pointed to.

    Basically Dr Loser you could not answer the very question you asked so stop putting forward this questions unless you really can answer them. Next question this one is kinda simpler using 2 or more network schedulers at the same time. You should be able to answer this one Dr Loser. As I said there were 6 so there are 3 more after this and the last 2 are absolutely evil todo. This is IO, CPU, Network there are still 3 more.

    But in the end, the software that I use was picked by myself because it was to me best in breed. It allows me to give wings to the music in my head in ways that I never could when I put pencil to paper while sitting in front of a piano. It does it far better than anything that is currently available in the FOSS domain.
    Wizard Emeritus really you have already admitted that you were not aware that Linux had commercial audio software. So you cannot say that its better than everything in the Linux Domain because you already proved you don’t know what that is.

  62. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “That’s silly. Who put you in charge? ”

    An interesting question, and one that you should ponder yourself when you cast aspersions on wintel users for using the softare that they use.

    Eh?

  63. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “If your software runs only on some particular hardware or some particular software it is an anchor not a pair of wings.”

    I used to run my existing music software on a wintel portable. In fact there was a time when I used the hour plus ride to and from the city to work on my music. These days I work on my music, sitting at a desk in my house. instead of a piano paper and pencil. The software on my computer functions as digital pencil and ink as well as ad-hoc pickup orchestra. I could purchase myself software for my tablet that would allow it to function as a sketchbook, but I don’t feel the need to do so.

    But in the end, the software that I use was picked by myself because it was to me best in breed. It allows me to give wings to the music in my head in ways that I never could when I put pencil to paper while sitting in front of a piano. It does it far better than anything that is currently available in the FOSS domain.

  64. DrLoser wrote, “If you can’t do that, Ancient and Enfeebled Peasant of the Prairies, then I think it’s fair to say that you have no control over your kernel.”

    That’s silly. Who put you in charge? If I want two different schedulers to be active on my server for whatever reason, I could have one kernel with each scheduler in two different real or virtual machines. They could each deal with their hardware or users as they wish. I can configure my Linux builds. I’ve done that many times to include drivers/options as needed either compiled in drivers or as loadable kernel modules. I have tested Kolivas’ scheduler a while back but gave it up because it was not set up for the kernel I wanted to use. It’s now available for the 4.4.* kernels so I could try it again. He recommends it for ~4 cores and desktop users as I have. I could run my web-server and database server in another virtual machine on the new ARMed system, for instance, with a different scheduler.

    Further Loser wrote, “I find your choice of the /etc partition interesting, in a not very interesting at all way.
     
    Do you have the same degree of control over the /proc partition, Robert?”

    /etc is reserved for configuration of various packages and daemons to customize the behaviour of the system. It’s a directory in the root file-system but it could be on a separate file-system in its own partition. Typically, one would give a root= kernel boot parameter to select one file-system or another for the root of the file-system and each choice can have a different /etc/ directory to give different behaviours. e.g. You could use the same server for backup or service with a different configuration so partitions to be backed up would be unmounted for fscks and ensured inactivity. For instance, I use /etc/ to route IP addresses I don’t want to visit to localhost in /etc/hosts or I set up the IP addresses for particular servers to respond to TCP connections. /proc is not a partition at all but a directory in the virtual file-system wherein one can find information about the system, e.g. /proc/cpuinfo or /proc/mdstat or to control certain behaviours without needing a reboot, e.g. /proc/sys/vm/swappiness One can read that value or write it like echo 40 >/proc/sys/vm/swappiness or with sysctl or /etc/sysctl.conf.

    So, you think that behaviour marks me as clueless? You are an idiot I guess. I see no other explanation for your behaviour.

  65. Dr Loser says:

    So then, Robert. You are challenged, both by myself and my tardy little friend oiaohm, to provide a dual-scheduler solution for your Linux server.

    If you can’t do that, Ancient and Enfeebled Peasant of the Prairies, then I think it’s fair to say that you have no control over your kernel.

    Naturally, you can borrow Fifi’s control. I would advise against it. But it’s your choice.

    I find your choice of the /etc partition interesting, in a not very interesting at all way.

    Do you have the same degree of control over the /proc partition, Robert?

    Of course, there’s no reason why you should. But I would love to hear why you wet your “adult diapers” over /etc, but for some reason are prepared to be Totally Enslaved by /proc.

    You’re clueless on this stuff, aren’t you, Pog? Totally clueless.

  66. Dr Loser says:

    So, now, lack of portability is a feature of software?

    No, Robert. But being able to leverage your professional ability and achievements in a field … is a very desirable feature for content providers.

    You should try it some time. Oh wait, you can’t. Not only are you ancient and decrepit, but you didn’t actually have the professional ability or the achievements in the first place.

    Stick to what you know best, Robert. Glomming off other, better, people’s work for free.

  67. Dr Loser says:

    I rarely even turn on my smartphone and when I do it’s on my LAN not on a wireless link from the outside.

    Very understandable, Robert.

    Expensive things, are smart phones.

    What is less easy to understand is why you keep banging on about them as an example of the success of Gnu/Linux.

    I mean, they clearly “do not work” for you. So why should you impose them on all the other Sheeple?

  68. The Wiz wrote, “None of what has been cobbled together in the FOSS domain that is exclusively to Linux is irreplaceable.”

    So, now, lack of portability is a feature of software? I always thought it was a deadly sin. This is the 21st century. Portability is in. If your software runs only on some particular hardware or some particular software it is an anchor not a pair of wings.

  69. kurkosdr wrote, “How do you plan to guard against this?”

    I rarely even turn on my smartphone and when I do it’s on my LAN not on a wireless link from the outside. That should give some protection particularly if I’m only connecting to my own server on the LAN. I mostly use the thing for GPS and camera. Browsing is secondary. Apparently it can dial 911 if I am out in the bush and get into trouble so it could be useful that way without a SIM card.

  70. Dr Loser says:

    Oh, and Fifi, me little beauty?

    Not that I, or anybody else, is going to find your nitwit answer to your own nitwit question informative or useful in any way … but here’s a hint as to your “solution.”

    Now, then. Do you really believe that Robert is Master of his own Domain and can actually control his kernel in this way?

    Well, you probably do, Fifi. You are, and always have been, an ignorant fantasist with little grasp of reality.

  71. Dr Loser says:

    Pursuant to Kurk’s post on Google (“Just a Mom ‘n’ Pop operation, writ large!”) and Sheeple Lock-In, may I add the following question?
    Anybody out there have a good, solid, secure way of deploying an App on Android phones that depends upon SQLite?

  72. Dr Loser says:

    Since you are claiming to be smart. I will give you a targeted question.
    You have to use two different cpu/task schedulers at the same time in a single Linux kenrel how do you do it? Yes I know the answer to this one. You are free to choose any 2 cpu kernel schedulers your answer must include the name of the two schedulers as well as the method how.

    You’ve sunk to new depths of brain-dead depravity, Fifi. That’s basically the question I asked, but with a single wrinkle. The wrinkle being that you specify a single Linux kernel.

    My question, on the other hand, simply asked how one might go about having two different schedulers on the same Linux server. I’m entirely neutral about which two are chosen. I’m entirely neutral as far as everything else about the solution is concerned.

    The thing about my question, Fifi, is that it directly addresses a possible customer need.

    The thing about your question, Fifi, is that it completely ignores any possible customer need in favor, presumably, of another barrage of stupid irrelevant cites.

  73. kurkosdr says:

    Unintended consequences of Slavery in Google’s IT:

    http://tmrepository.com/fudtracker/godless-apps-among-us-alterative-title-of-formatti/

    Now Pog, I am aware that you do not have a device with the latest patch level. In fact, your Android devices have ancient Android versions and kernels.

    Also keep in mind those malicious apps (referenced in the links) affect you even if you don’t store sensitive data on your phone. As they essentially enrol your phone into a botnet. The Towelroot exploit is especially nasty, because it can be delivered via Javascript and then install stealth apps (that look like benign apps but have root permissions gained through Towelroot exploit and do Zeus knows what).

    So, I am posting a simple question: How do you plan to guard against this?

    PS: This post is part-PSA, follow the link and yo ‘ll understand why.

  74. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Linux is not a third wheel. It properly supports cluster file-systems that windows and os x don’t. Properly supports the newer protocols for network audio.”

    In a world in which tens of terabytes of storage drives can be connected directly to my workstation via USB 3.1 and Thunderbolt 2 links, I doubt that I will need anything so esoteric as clustered file systems any time. If I really need higher speed I can connect a Terabyte SSD card to my system as a temp space.

    IN the unlikely event that I do come to need clustered file systems, I csan implement Storage spaces on windows 10

    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/storage-spaces-windows-10

    This gives me most of what clustered file systems offer, I like three way mirror especially.

    “TSN note I mentioned that. There is no TSN driver for Windows or OS X Wizard Emeritus. Yet there is already pro grade hardware that demard you have it. So not a third wheel at all. Remember what I said Linux has the advantage in audio hardware access. “”

    For those who do now know with our resident Linux Troll is babbling about, please see.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-Sensitive_Networking

    Note how the time sensitive networking standard is not even out of draft yet. As far as being only implemented on linux is concerned, our resident Troll fails to fill in some important details from his own cite:

    and I quote:

    “Henrik Austad of Cisco has published very early code for implementing a TSN core driver in the Linux kernel. TSN is short for Time Sensitive Networking and was formerly known as Audio/Video Bridging (AVB). ”
    It is highly unlikely that any business is selling hardware that is implementing a draft standard protocol using an early alpha version of a kernel driver. So unless you can come up with a concrete cite, I will assuming that you were lying as usual in your ususal pathetic attempts to win an argument.

    “Reality here Wizard Emeritus does not want to accept the fact that in audio there are particular things where Linux has the advantage over all other solutions include OS X and Windows. ”

    And our resident Linux Troll does not want to acknowledge the fact that most of the “advantages” that you have talked about are either completely irrelevant to what I am doing, effectively non-existent at this time, or are or will be available commercially if and when it becomes relevant.

    You seem to forget all the time that although I had a career in IT, I am trained in and have the talent for creating music. Not only do I know my craft, but I am also conversant with what is available both commercially and in the FOSS domain. None of what has been cobbled together in the FOSS domain that is exclusively to Linux is irreplaceable.

    You on the other hand are nothing a Liinux Troll who as far as can be determined, possesses nothing more than a bunch of googles without a clue behind them. As far as I am concerned it is you who are limited by your attachment to a Linux desktop, no matter how you sugar coat it.

  75. oiaohm says:

    http://www.audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/DanteP2AXMar2014.pdf
    Utterly fascinating, Fifi. But pretty much nobody gives a rat’s arse about distributing audio services.

    Try again. This time, with something that anybody out in the real world actually cares about.
    Dr Loser try again your self I already had given a cite covering this. More and more high end digital audio hardware default interface is Ethernet. So Ethernet limits become big problems.

    From my viewpoint it has zero advantages. All of my critical software is supported only on windows and OS X, and since I have chosen for now to run windows based system, that is what I use. Linux would be nothing but a third wheel in the windows/linux hybrid that you are now attempting to sell me.
    TSN note I mentioned that. There is no TSN driver for Windows or OS X Wizard Emeritus. Yet there is already pro grade hardware that demard you have it. So not a third wheel at all. Remember what I said Linux has the advantage in audio hardware access.

    Linux is not a third wheel. It properly supports cluster file-systems that windows and os x don’t. Properly supports the newer protocols for network audio.

    Reality here Wizard Emeritus does not want to accept the fact that in audio there are particular things where Linux has the advantage over all other solutions include OS X and Windows. Putting Linux and Windows in one solution gives you access to the most.

    Thinking that the next generation audio hardware is going the Ethernet route its only a matter of time before windows network limits are going to become problems.

    Something bad is OS X virtual machines don’t include the useful things for hot plugging audio interfaces in out of virtual machine. Only thing you find with that is the Linux kernel KVM instances. This is why Wizard Emeritus idea of go to OS X does not solve problem. It only solved problem if you are going to drop your Windows software if you wish to keep your windows software and use large scale network audio its Linux/Windows not OS X/Windows.

    The answer to my question of how to run two disparate schedulers for the GNU/Linux kernel on a proper server system is, of course, ridiculously obvious.

    Any IT guy with about six months of relevant GNU/Linux experience would come up with it in about ten minutes flat, Robert.

    Counting, counting … 10 …. 9 …. 8 … 7 … 6 ….
    Since Dr Loser only waited 6 min before posting this I have to presume he is absolute desperate for us to do his homework assignments for him. What failing your course so you pick on us and want us to answer????

    I will be kind for this super big idiot.
    http://www.linuxhowtos.org/System/iosched.htm
    You never stated the type of Scheduler did you. IO schedulers on Linux are per device so SSD and HDD can in fact have two completely different schedulers assigned no problems. Yes there are IO schedulers under Linux optimised for SSD or HDD and generic all rounders. I guess that is the one the super idiot is thinking of.

    Now there other ways Dr Loser to be running two different schedulers at the same time.
    I know how to do this.
    Since you are claiming to be smart. I will give you a targeted question.
    You have to use two different cpu/task schedulers at the same time in a single Linux kenrel how do you do it? Yes I know the answer to this one. You are free to choose any 2 cpu kernel schedulers your answer must include the name of the two schedulers as well as the method how.

    So there were more than two answers to your question Dr Loser so it not as ridiculously obvious as you first claim.

    Dr Loser you have 24 hours to answer if you cannot you will never ask another Linux skill question again of Robert or me. By the way there are a total of 6 different answers because there are 6 different types of scheduler in the Linux kernel all 6 of them have ways of running more than 1 at a time. Bonus points provide the 4 other answers as well and be aware I know them all.

  76. Dr Loser, finding facts not in evidence, wrote, “If you’re a completely unqualified lunatic [“my first ‘computers’ assignment] who reports to somebody who has even less domain experience, Robert, then it’s hard to disagree with your conclusion that it’s “great fun.””

    At that time I had decades of computer experience and had used GNU/Linux in classrooms for five years. This was my first lab but I had essentially created small labs in classrooms since Day One. My first experience of GNU/Linux was a cluster of five legacy PCs that would not work for us with Lose ’95 but were flawless with GNU/Linux.

    It may not be obvious to Dr Loser but I’ve been recognized as a computing super-star in schools since 1997 when I resumed teaching and a few PCs were in most schools. In 1998, I recognized that the major problem in my school was attendance. Students just weren’t getting enough exposure to subject-matter to pass to the next grade. With the cooperation of the principal I coded in Pascal a database for attendance. This gave every student instantaneous data on accumulated attendance and the number of hours to make up in order to graduate. We set up after hours sessions where students could keep up with their work. That simple measure tripled the size of the graduating class that year. That was done on a Mac on my desk. We had no network so I set up a cluster of 6 old PCs from Computers for Schools (Lose 3.1) and downloaded ~50 floppy discs of images, data, software and web-pages during the summer to distribute to each hard drive. That was most students’ first experience of use of IT in a classroom outside of a lab. When I discovered GNU/Linux or it discovered me, I was ready to do much more with IT in schools. I provided ~100 gigabytes of text and images to several schools so they did not have to struggle with the bottleneck of the ISP. I helped many students build vocabulary. My decade at university and my middle decade of teaching with GNU/Linux were the highlights of my life outside of home/family and I did many good things. It was fun, hard work but very satisfying unlike the bitterness Dr Loser seems to feel about nearly everything.

  77. Dr Loser says:

    The answer to my question of how to run two disparate schedulers for the GNU/Linux kernel on a proper server system is, of course, ridiculously obvious.

    Any IT guy with about six months of relevant GNU/Linux experience would come up with it in about ten minutes flat, Robert.

    Counting, counting … 10 …. 9 …. 8 … 7 … 6 ….

  78. Dr Loser says:

    But let’s concentrate on the question of how, in reality, you would actually deploy two different schedulers in the GNU/Linux kernel, Robert. Say, one for the SSD, and another for your awesome Cello Server database thingie.

    Just the two. With your vaunted expertise, you will obviously be able to pick the two best candidates.

    But I’m not even asking you to do that. Any old two will do.

    You are the Master of your GNU/Linux kernel, Robert. Explain how you would do this.

    I know how to do this.

    oiaohm, God bless the lad for waiting on your response, knows how to do this.

    But you don’t, do you?

    In fact, you are clueless.

    Some “Master of the Kernel” you are, you schlemiel.

  79. Dr Loser says:

    I’m using systemd these days. I boot up without apache2 and mariadb running to speed things up and to save RAM. I can start either or both of those locally and remotely.

    Good to know, Robert. So what was all that earlier posturing and whining about, eh?

    Naturally I assume you have exercised your magnificent FLOSS expertise by configuring systemd in all sorts of complicated ways.

    Knocking off the single lines that start MariaDB and Apache up doesn’t really count as expertise, Pog. Although it’s lovely to know that, somehow, you have consoled yourself by admitting that, however inadequate you might be as a local one-site SysAdmin, you can at least handle the trivial task of killing two daemons at birth.

    Good on ya, Ancient Repetitive Lying Failure!

  80. Dr Loser says:

    VIM allows me to edit any detail in the configuration files in /etc.

    This is really sad, Robert. And the saddest thing is, you apparently believe that the use of VIM somehow gives you “control” over /etc.

    Giant clue bat? It doesn’t.

  81. Dr Loser says:

    Obviously, since I build my own kernels, I can configure for a choice of schedulers, including Kolivas’.

    Obviously.

    But you have never once done that, have you?

    You have never even collected the statistical evidence to allow you to make that choice, have you?

    You’re a pathetic little fraud.

  82. Dr Loser says:

    My first “computers” assignment was triggered by a knock on the door late at night by the vice-principal asking if I could run the lab because the guy they had hired was not going to show up… Because I had extensive practical experience in using IT and GNU/Linux there was no problem at all. I worked a few days planning my courses and delivering them. It was great fun.

    And why not?

    If you’re a completely unqualified lunatic [“my first ‘computers’ assignment] who reports to somebody who has even less domain experience, Robert, then it’s hard to disagree with your conclusion that it’s “great fun.”

    Any fucking idiot can have “great fun” in those circumstances.

    I do wonder about the knock on the door late at night by the vice-principal, however. Perhaps you can clarify the relevant history here?

    Seems to me that the poor chap just fancied you, and was hoping that you would exchange his dubious sexual favors for your own dubious IT qualifications.

    Naturally, you can prove me wrong. Presumably, in this (northern Manitoban?) educational establishment of which you speak, there was some sort of gargantuan looming IT disaster that only you, Robert, could possibly solve.

    Late at night. With the help of a soldering gun, some lube, a few naughty pictures of little boys in compromising positions, and the patented Slowly Boiled Frog.

    Have you considered making a film of your miserable failed little life, Robert?

    I would happily volunteer as the Slowly Boiled Frog.

  83. Dr Loser prattled on:
    “Question 1. What control do you have over the scheduler in your kernel?”
    Obviously, since I build my own kernels, I can configure for a choice of schedulers, including Kolivas’. I can also interact with the kernel through boot parameters and /proc to adjust things as needed.

    “Question 2. What control do you have over /etc?”
    VIM allows me to edit any detail in the configuration files in /etc. I can also choose to put /etc/ in a partition and select from multiple configuration by a mounting option. I’ve configured much in /etc over the years, like particular options in various PHP scripts, mysql and Apache2 options.

    “Question 3. What control do you have over the future of Linux server boots, which is to say, systemd?”
    I’m using systemd these days. I boot up without apache2 and mariadb running to speed things up and to save RAM. I can start either or both of those locally and remotely.

    In short, I’m in total control of my GNU/Linux system in addition to all the usual user-controls like passwords, permissions and applications installed. Of course, Dr Loser knows all this yet he does the “Trump” thing of casting aspersions/innuendo just to waste people’s time.

  84. Dr Loser says:

    Oh, and on an orthogonally unrelated point, Robert “Frog Boiler” Pogson …
    This claim you originally came up with? You know, the one about 80% of corporate desktop activity being easily replaced by a Gnu equivalent?

    You insisted that we stop talking about that claim. I hereby refuse to stop talking about that claim. Want to know why?

    Because your totally unsubstantiated claim is a total lie.

    You are full of shit on this one. Right up to the brim.

  85. Dr Loser says:

    Question 1. What control do you have over the scheduler in your kernel?
    Question 2. What control do you have over /etc?
    Question 3. What control do you have over the future of Linux server boots, which is to say, systemd?

    My answers?
    1) None at all.
    2) A derisory ability to partition the mount point in question, and stuff it full of rubbish.
    3) You’re so incredibly ignorant of how modern server daemons work that you are dead in the water.

    I notice, Robert, that you have not attempted to defend your total ignorance on a single one of those points.

    I’m beginning to think that you have no defense whatsoever.

    You are a naked silly pathetic gobby old man, aren’t you?

  86. Dr Loser says:

    Certainly TLW does not use nor have any need of TOOS to do anything she does: manage databases, create, store, find and present information, browse the Web, etc. Stock Debian GNU/Linux meets all her needs and mine.

    Fascinating, Robert.

    So then. You’re admitting that your earlier assertion that the Microsoft EULA causes your good lady horrible problems when she leaves the nest and travels around the world?

    No? You’re not admitting that?

    Then why did you bring your wife up, and her international travels, when making a totally insupportable claim about the Microsoft EULA in the first place?

    The first sign of senility, Robert, is a tendency to pointless babbling. You present, very strongly, with that sign.

  87. Dr Loser says:

    Dr Loser the answer is simple.

    Correctly set-up Linux maps network provided audio services to virtual audio devices.

    Windows connection limit applies to network connections not to virtual sound cards in the virtual machine.

    Utterly fascinating, Fifi. But pretty much nobody gives a rat’s arse about distributing audio services.

    Try again. This time, with something that anybody out in the real world actually cares about.

  88. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” Putting a limit in the EULA extorts more money from the slaves.”

    And again you need to be told where to put your slave crap, miser and cheapskate.

    I have no problem doing that, of course, since it seems to be the only thing that you respond to.

  89. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The hybrid Linux/Windows has some major advantages over just Windows by itself. ”

    From my viewpoint it has zero advantages. All of my critical software is supported only on windows and OS X, and since I have chosen for now to run windows based system, that is what I use. Linux would be nothing but a third wheel in the windows/linux hybrid that you are now attempting to sell me.

    Actually I find your blessing of running my software on windows virtual machines to be especially humorous. It was not all that long ago that you were lecturing me about how inadequate virtual machines.

    Could it possibly be sir that you have come around to this because you are a closet windows user who simply can’t live with FOSS running on linux…?

    eh?

  90. oiaohm wrote, “Linux, BSD and OS X don’t have a history of these completely stupid limits required to prevent damage from stupid behaviour.”

    I remember working in one school where a tech told me his TOOS server was near its limit of connections just due to “chatter” amongst the clients. He had about 50 clients, ISTR. At Easterville, the file/auth server had over 100 clients and was the least-loaded/busy of all the servers. “connections” just was not on the radar with GNU/Linux. Having to count connections is just another term of servitude to M$. M$ wants to sell server licences and CALs. Putting a limit in the EULA extorts more money from the slaves.

  91. oiaohm says:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/08/is_win_10_ignoring_sysadmins_qos_settings/
    By the way this was covered in another post by Robert. Yes this is one windows update resulting in windows 10 DOS it self against it own 20 connection limit.

    So how well do you trust Microsoft updates on your LAN. Might seam odd to run Linux with Windows inside but with the histories of Microsoft shooting down lan operations with bad updates is long. Sand-boxing Windows inside a Linux OS does limit its harm.

    Now of course with how badly Microsoft stuffs it from time to time if Microsoft did not cap how many connections windows servers and clients could create it would have been a far worse DOS issue. Yet Linux, BSD and OS X don’t have a history of these completely stupid limits required to prevent damage from stupid behaviour.

  92. oiaohm says:

    Please note running windows inside a virtual machine and have a machine big enough todo that is also a method around windows connection limit stupidity.

    Really, Fifi? How?
    Dr Loser the answer is simple.

    Correctly set-up Linux maps network provided audio services to virtual audio devices.

    Windows connection limit applies to network connections not to virtual sound cards in the virtual machine. So Network midi and recording ports appear as virtual sound cards to windows in a virtual machine is not in fact breaking the Windows connection limit because that is no longer a network connection to Windows. Linux OS under the virtual machine is doing the network connections without a limit. Yes turning network audio into virtual USB audio devices is one of the very dirty methods around problems since they can be hot pluged in and out by windows.

    I’m not defending the MS limits. I’m simply pointing out your ignorance.
    No Dr Loser you are in fact proving your ignorance and stupidity put a challenge on that point.

    Really this is like the old Killer Nic
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_NIC
    It add a Linux network stack and Linux network processing prevent overloading Windows networking stack so allowing Windows to function more effectively. So putting windows inside a VM on Linux or OS X or BSD fixes other windows networking stack issues as well. Yes why windows servers run better on ESXi in lots of network tests than on physical hardware traces to this as well so Wizard Emeritus claiming to be a VMWare sphere user should have been aware of this difference.

    Oh BTW, the 10 connection half open tcp outbound connection limit was removed by microsoft as of windows Vista.

    http://www.geekstogo.com/forum/topic/241694-half-open-outbound-tcp-connections-limit-removed-in-windows-7-and-vist/
    That is not the issue I am referring to but it gives example of what you have in fact agreed to allow happen in the Windows EULA. Windows xp in license says you are only allowed 10 active connections and new desktop Windows (7 to 10)says you are only allowed 20 active connections.

    Please that half open state connection. The 10 half open issue in XP could be removed by removing 1 particular patch in SP2 and newer and was not in fact part of the license. Even so removing the half open connection still did not change the number of full open connections you are allowed.

    Remember, I do not need inbound connections. All of mty tcp connections if I needed to communicate via TCP would be outbound. So worst thing that I need to do is possibly create/change a registry key.
    Not exactly killer nic existed because windows network stack is only tested to particular limitations. So being able to use a Linux BSD or OS X network stack designed and tested well past those limits. Your network inbound and outbound are limited by license with windows. Microsoft is free at any time to put out patches to attempt to enforce those limits since you agreed to them in the EULA. Like those with XP upgrading to SP2 finding themselves hit with a 10 half open connection limit could do nothing legally against it because XP license states 10 connection limit. So 7-10 Microsoft is free at any time to implement limitations to 20 connections on networking any way Microsoft like hopefully your work-flow will not be effected. Of course those using a Hybrid Linux/Windows setup are not effected by those connection changes because they are not using Windows networking to connect to the network provided audio bits.

    The hybrid Linux/Windows has some major advantages over just Windows by itself. Biggest downside to hybrid Linux/Windows has been lack of good GPU support what does not effect audio work-flows Intel GVT-g KVMGT is coming along quite nicely and other graphics pass throughs so that problem is getting less.

  93. DrLoser wrote, “there’s always the distressing possibility that TLW has always known how to keep her various M$ devices up and running and problem-free.”

    There are no Wintel devices at all in this house. It’s possible there’s something with TOOS-embedded but I don’t care. Certainly TLW does not use nor have any need of TOOS to do anything she does: manage databases, create, store, find and present information, browse the Web, etc. Stock Debian GNU/Linux meets all her needs and mine.

  94. The Wiz wrote, “Name some of those advantages, if you will.”

    Fortunately, I’m retired and the garden is growing well so:

    • efficiency – My PCs and servers don’t need to do any work for M$.
    • flexibility – I can do anything with the software and hardware I control. I don’t have limits placed on us by the EULA and the GPL gives us rights not taking them away. So, I can run TLW’s 32-bit thin client software in a chroot on a 64-bit machine, and let her run a session on Beast from that client with absolutely no concern about licensing. Similarly, I can install software on any client that does PXE just by powering it up, also without needing to find a sticker, and I can SSH all over my LAN without having to buy a server licence or any additional software packages. I’m also not limited to a certain number of backups for fear of violating copyright.
    • Performance – Since my software is doing my bidding, it runs faster in less RAM/storage.
    • Configurability – unlike TOOS, I can change anything I want about the software/hardware without M$ undoing it or revoking permission to use stuff I’ve legally acquired.

    That’s just a brief list. I don’t want to stay here all night typing. I went to GNU/Linux because TOOS did not work for me or my students. GNU/Linux did because the software is not controlled by salesmen only wanting to corner the market on desktop OS with no consideration of efficiency or security. Lose ’95 had no security at all. It was a malware-magnet as was XP, the last OS from M$ that was widely installed in any school where I worked.

  95. Dr Loser says:

    Of course, there’s always the distressing possibility that TLW has always known how to keep her various M$ devices up and running and problem-free.

    Surely not, though. Otherwise, you would have admitted to her that you have spent the best part of fifteen or twenty years as a completely clueless failure in this relatively straightforward area of tech, and humbly begged TLW to sort your problems out.

    Probably too late for the catastrophic wreckage you left at Easterville, Pog. But not too late to fix things up in Winnipeg.

  96. Dr Loser says:

    Oh, and assuming you are in full control of systemd and da kernel (including swapping schedulers in and out, for enhanced performance) and, for some truly bizarre reason, /etc … I have no idea at all why you would prefer control over /etc above control over /proc, but I’m prepared to listen to your no doubt masterly arguments on that comparison …

    Myself and the Wiz can help you with your sole remaining technical issue.

    We are, after all, Humble Seekers After The Truth. And both of us, in the absence of Truth, are prepared to use our Naughty Skills to fill the gaps that exist within the Set Of FLOSS Truths.

    OK, Loser, cut the crap.

    I understand, Robert, that TLW operates several M$ devices of various types, despite your strict Edwardian instructions that she not do so.

    You are evidently not much use in solving the technical problems of TLW in these areas. Which occur roughly every ten minutes or so, I believe, given your various nitwit bleatings on the subject.

    Well, me and the Wiz are here to help. We are generous and honest folk.

    Have at it!

  97. Dr Loser says:

    How’s the good fight against systemd going for you, btw?

    I can give you a few hints, if you ask politely.

  98. Dr Loser says:

    Neither of us know the entire commercial world, so shut up about it.

    I was not the one who made spurious claims about 80% of the commercial world, you pathetic senile old liar.

    You were, you nasty contemptible little piece of technologically inept worthless dreck.

    Consequently, the onus is not on me to “shut up about it.”

    The only reason I even mention it is to call you out as a profoundly immoral liar and fantasist who will say anything at all to promote the snake-oil that gives him something for nothing.

    I have no other reason to mention the percentage of the corporate world at all.

    You mentioned it, in support of your (blatantly untrue) arguments.

    Don’t you think, Pog, me old mucker … that it’s you, not I, who should “shut up about it?”

    But you never will, will you? Being completely wrong and unjustified in any way is second nature to you, isn’t it, Pog?

    You’re a sheeple and a slave to your own pathetic fallacious fantasies, you old fool.

  99. Dr Loser says:

    Please note running windows inside a virtual machine and have a machine big enough todo that is also a method around windows connection limit stupidity.

    Really, Fifi? How?

    Please restrict yourself to equivalent legal limits in the two cases: Windows on its own, or Windows inside a virtual machine.

    I’m not defending the MS limits. I’m simply pointing out your ignorance.

  100. Dr Loser says:

    Really? Name some of those advantages, if you will.

    Well, Wiz, there’s control of the kernel … control of /etc

    I think I speak for Robert on these two important points.

    I have no clue whatsoever why he thinks he has the said control, but he is a countryman. The progeny of Old Farming Stock. An ignorant and slow-witted peasant, if you will.

    I’m sure he will be able to explain one or both positions, if we give him enough time.

  101. Dr Loser says:

    Then, why am I buying Chinese tractors, alternators and ARMed stuff?

    Because you’re an ignorant old miserly cheapskate who only examines the cost and never considers the benefits, Robert. It’s going to take a while to convince you of this, but I think by now we’ve convinced just about everybody else here, including Dougie and possibly even oiaohm.

    I suspect, btw, that practically anybody who lives in an up-scale mansion in an upper-class district of Winnipeg — thankfully you have moved up the ladder from the domicile next door to the maximum security prison — can buy an alternator off the shelf based on performance rather than the fact that the local newspaper has a cut-out coupon that saves $4.99 on the thing.

    But not you, Robert, not you.

    Your upscale upper class neighbours must consider you the cynosure of all eyes!

    (Assuming they are all clones of Uncle Scrooge McDuck.)

  102. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Since then I’ve found many more advantages of GNU/Linux besides the price.”

    Really? Name some of those advantages, if you will.

  103. The Wiz wrote, “you don’t care about anything other than the fact that you don’t have to pay for the software that you use”.

    Then, why am I buying Chinese tractors, alternators and ARMed stuff? I care about lots of things. This morning, I whacked some weeds I cared a lot about. I also lovingly transplanted some sugar maple seedlings to larger pots. Not having to pay for Debian GNU/Linux is just one of many benefits of using the software. My first use of GNU/Linux resulted from the complete disaster that was Lose ’95, nothing else. I cared that my students had reliable IT that time. Since then I’ve found many more advantages of GNU/Linux besides the price. It’s The Wiz and friends who keep calling me cheap and harping on price. Over the years I’ve bought a lot of stuff with embedded software and never once worried how much Samsung or other was charging for the software.

  104. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Slave:“Thank you, Master!”

    You must like being told where to put your slave crap.

    “Still, it’s curious that he devotes so much time to dissing a product of the world that he used so much at work because it was the best tool for the job.”

    What I used and supported at work were Administrative systems running enterprise server class applications. For some of those applications, Linux was a requirement. Where windows server was a requirement we ran and supported windows server. My desktop was another think entirely. Linux was run in a virtual machine and only reverenced when I needed to work on a problem for production. IN my retirement I maintain copies of the latest CentOS running in virtual machines to keep my skills up. Beyond that I work mostly with a windows desktop And I am glad of it.

    Robert Pogson, As long as you insist on arrogantly “calling out” those who use commercial software as “slaves” I will continue pointing out where you are full of it.

    And every time you talk about “cheap” this or “cheap that” you will prove to anyone reading that you don’t care about anything other than the fact that you don’t have to pay for the software that you use.

    All else from your mouth IMHO is pure bushwah.

  105. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “So, the best you can do is ad hominem, eh? Linux.com is a respected site, highly ranked and Carla is the best. Of course her writings count, as do her references to great AV software in GNU/Linux.”

    This is not a subject matter expert talking Robert Pogson, she is nothing more than perhaps a knowledgeable linux booster. To a musician looking for references to commercial software, she is useless as a reference.

    And no amount of ad hominem on your part will change that.

  106. The Wiz wrote, “I find it interesting how you go on about this limit in the face of this. But I chalk it up to a pathetic attempt to strongarm me into using linux.”

    I find it interesting that The Wiz accepts more restrictions on the use of the equipment he owns not less. Now he needs not only to keep track of the number of TCP connections but what kind of TCP connections…

    Slave-master:“Slave, I’m going to beat you on every odd date under a waxing moon instead of dates divisible by 3 or 2 under a full moon.”

    Slave:“Thank you, Master!”

    I have no hope of getting The Wiz to ever run GNU/Linux again until M$ dissolves itself into pension funds for shareholders. Still, it’s curious that he devotes so much time to dissing a product of the world that he used so much at work because it was the best tool for the job.

  107. The Wiz wrote, “nor is she in the audio business”, as if not being in some business precludes any journalist from writing about it. That’s a recipe for an echo chamber…

    Take Ardour as another example. It is available for several operating systems including GNU/Linux and it is written by and for professionals.

  108. The Wiz wrote, “An article written by one of the staff writers of Linux magazine hardly counts.”

    So, the best you can do is ad hominem, eh? Linux.com is a respected site, highly ranked and Carla is the best. Of course her writings count, as do her references to great AV software in GNU/Linux.

  109. Wizard Emeritus says:

    Mac = Mac pro

  110. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “There is a nasty issue. OS X runs on Limit hardware size. So when you attempt to VM windows running heavy audio applications you don’t in fact have enough CPU and ram resources to pull it off well.”

    Thats an interesting statement, the kind that can only come from not knowing the state of Apple Hardware A 27″ apple IMac equipped with 4.0Ghz I7 quad core CPU and 32Gb of RAM – is the same price as my current xps 8900 rig with room to spare. If I wend mac I would probably choose the 6core 3.5Ghz I7 with 32Gb to start and then upgrade to 64Gb as needed.

    Oh BTW, the 10 connection half open tcp outbound connection limit was removed by microsoft as of windows Vista.

    http://www.geekstogo.com/forum/topic/241694-half-open-outbound-tcp-connections-limit-removed-in-windows-7-and-vist/

    “The complete removal of the limit for half-open outbound TCP connections, which is defaulted to 10, was finalized with the release of Windows Server 2008 and Vista SP2 Build 17506. In fact, the half-open outgoing TCP connection limit has been bypassed by default since Windows Vista SP2 RC Build 16670. Previously, the changelog of SP2 showed that Microsoft looks like going to “add a registry key that enables modification of the maximum number of open TCP connections to increase application compatibility”.

    Instead, Microsoft adds a registry key that allows user or administrator to enable (turn on) or disable (turn off) the half-open TCP connections limit in Windows Vista with Service Pack 2 and in Windows Server 2008 with Service Pack 2.”

    Remember, I do not need inbound connections. All of mty tcp connections if I needed to communicate via TCP would be outbound. So worst thing that I need to do is possibly create/change a registry key.

    I find it interesting how you go on about this limit in the face of this. But I chalk it up to a pathetic attempt to strongarm me into using linux.

  111. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “See Professional Audio Production on Linux”

    An article written by one of the staff writers of Linux magazine hardly counts. The writer is not a professional engineer nor is she in the audio business.

    “A particular example: Airtime is used to run whole radio stations.”

    Software as a service that can be used by anybody.

    All in all a pathetic attempt at a comeback. Fifi can do better.

  112. oiaohm says:

    Should the time come that windows could no longer provide a capable enough platform to host my music applications, I will purchase an apple machine and run that same software on top of OS X, for as you know Apple computers are the primary choice of most professional musicians.
    LOL idiot. Wizard Emeritus

    There is a nasty issue. OS X runs on Limit hardware size. So when you attempt to VM windows running heavy audio applications you don’t in fact have enough CPU and ram resources to pull it off well.

    So when you out grow Windows the next step up is Linux/Windows hybrid.

    Most professional musicians is correct is OS X not windows. But the reality is when they out grow OS X where they need to go is Linux/Windows hybrid. So the very top of the audio stack is the Linux/Windows hybrid.

    Desktop Linux would be nowhere in that equation.
    Only a complete moron on the levels of the audio world desktops would say this. So as soon as you say Linux Desktop is not part of it means you have absolutely no clue. Linux Desktop without a VM for audio is Limited at this stage. Linux Desktop with VM with the scale of hardware it operates with the work around to the restrictions of Windows leads to the most powerful solution.

  113. oiaohm says:

    Airtime is one example where 20 connection limit of Windows does not work and OS X limited hardware specs are not and option either as you need to support a lot of connections and you need the hardware to support it.

    Reality here is a hybrid Linux/Windows system with Linux being host and Windows being guest is the most functional audio workstation you can have at this stage.

    The fact Wizard Emeritus has come coming in saying no interest in Linux audio options properly showed he did not know the problem. Means has not done homework fully on want was in fact required. With flatpak and snappy coming maybe the tide will shift again.

    No commercial software is not true. I said — Limited commercial software options– but of course acting super idiot Wizard Emeritus say none expecting no one to notice is total incompetence.
    http://www.loomer.co.uk/products.htm
    Example of one that is windows, OS X and Linux and those are commercial closed source. There is also examples of commercial closed source in the audio world that are Linux only.

    There are quite a few commercial VST with Linux versions so anyone dealing in audio a lot would be aware that saying no commercial software in audio on Linux wrong. Limited is the valid status.

    So like it or not Wizard Emeritus not using Linux cuts out of a pool of audio software and hardware usage and being able to use your hardware to its limit.

  114. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Reality Wizard Emeritus you did not know the limitation of your solution and come out with hey Linux is crap not knowing that windows solutions is also crap and to fix it is run Windows in a virtual machine inside Linux.”

    I am well aware of what is available sir. I am also aware that none of it is available on linux. Should the time come that windows could no longer provide a capable enough platform to host my music applications, I will purchase an apple machine and run that same software on top of OS X, for as you know Apple computers are the primary choice of most professional musicians. As far as any remaining windows apps that didnt convert, they would be running in a VM under OS X.

    Desktop Linux would be nowhere in that equation.

  115. The Wiz wrote, “linux does not have commercial audio software” and was quite wrong.

    See Professional Audio Production on Linux

    A particular example: Airtime is used to run whole radio stations.

  116. oiaohm says:

    How it breaks down is that linux does not have commercial audio software. You entire “answer” is irrelevant drivel.
    LOL LOL idiot Wizard Emeritus

    The answer for the perfect audio production platform is both Linux and Windows. Windows in virtual machine to have access to the commercial audio software. Linux outside to be able to in fact control all the different forms of audio hardware without the stupid limitations of Microsoft Licensing.

  117. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus the EULA limitation on connections is something that you cannot forgot about. How this becomes a big problem is when you plug a windows laptop into a studio.

    http://www.audioxpress.com/assets/upload/files/DanteP2AXMar2014.pdf
    Dante is one such example. Each microphone/recording location in a studio can in fact be a single concurrent connection back to your computer. Using Windows 7 to 10 you have choose to limit yourself to only 20 max. Yes you can put a Dante card in that supports a 128 but in fact using more than 20 is breach of the EULA license.

    “With the EULA, M$ could decide tomorrow that making music is a target and require you to pay extra for that privilege. ”
    Wizard Emeritus the reality is that is current day. Microsoft Windows Desktop EULA means to use Ethernet based recording gear to its max equals paying extra for the privilege. Of course you can avoid this limitation by running windows in a Virtual machine and having Linux as the host OS so that you can interface with Dante set-ups and use them to max.

    This is one of the nasty realities. If you are talking about having a Windows laptop that is configured for all forms of audio work and be pure windows you start looking at quite expensive windows server licenses so not that cheap. Then there are other problems lot of Audio software for Windows has never been tested with server edition so now has strange issues. Linux host with Windows virtual doing audio turns out to be one of the best options. Of course this does mean understanding how to use some Linux audio tools and not raging on every Linux audio tool Wizard Emeritus.

    And now if you will excuse me, I have music to write…
    Of course you are not conducting people and having real players perform your work and producing the recording.

    Reality Wizard Emeritus you did not know the limitation of your solution and come out with hey Linux is crap not knowing that windows solutions is also crap and to fix it is run Windows in a virtual machine inside Linux.

  118. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “That is how it breaks down. If Linux got the commercial audio software side it would be a slam dunk.”

    How it breaks down is that linux does not have commercial audio software. You entire “answer” is irrelevant drivel.

    End of story.

  119. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “That skips the part where you accepted slavery to M$.”

    I believe you have already been told where to put your slavery crap. I suspect I am not the first to do so either.

    “With the EULA, M$ could decide tomorrow that making music is a target and require you to pay extra for that privilege. ”

    And a meteor can fall on my house at any time, killing me and my family. Such an event is just a likely as your idiotic and paranoid scenario.

    “Your IT is not safe with M$ as your slave-master.” My IT is perfectly safe, you old fool. Microsoft has its hands full with too many attempts to crack new markets to want to fool around with their installed base. You spent too many years using your interpretations of the microsoft EULA to sell your IT snake oil to people who didn’t know or didn’t care about IT. In case you haven’t noticed, you are not talking to one of those people now. As I have said in the past, I have probably forgotten more that you actually knew about IT. I have also been around as long as you have. I understand what the microsoft EULA is, and I also understand what it will never be. Go peddle you paranoid crap elsewhere Robert Pogson.

    And now if you will excuse me, I have music to write…

  120. oiaohm wrote, “running windows inside a virtual machine and have a machine big enough todo that is also a method around windows connection limit stupidity.”

    There may be licensing regimes where that is a solution but the typical consumer editions don’t allow that any more than they allow making multiple copies on any medium.

  121. oiaohm wrote, ” Major reason for not having MS Office and other things in a thin-client system is the Microsoft costing model.”

    It’s much more than the costing model for licences. M$ wants you to buy more copies so restricts what you can do with one copy. That exceeds copyright. That’s the EULA from Hell.

    oiaohm also wrote, “ibm idea of setting up linux thin-client server is a good starting point. Then start changing the clients. The thin-client system provides the compatibility from user to user without requiring OS on the computer at there desk to be identical.”

    IMHO, that is exactly right. I’ve done many migrations and by far the easiest used thin clients. For a slight network lag and difficulties with audio/video, you get servers that work hard while clients idle and one slightly complex installation deals with a fleet of clients. I made a plan to migrate a lab once that would take only 1h. Meanwhile, folks actually installing TOOS could take hours and require running from PC to PC unless they pay extra for some server licensing. Charging money for what should be $free is part of M$’s costing model that stinks. It’s one of the key elements of slavery, that folks accept this abuse as normal. It’s none of M$’s business how a teacher sets up a computer-lab.

  122. The Wiz wrote, “The microsoft desktop OS license that came with the Dell xps 8900 that I purchased does the job that is required of it. That is all that I require. I just installed my software and got on with making music.”

    That skips the part where you accepted slavery to M$. Where you agreed M$ could change how your PC works, the software on it and that you would accept silly restrictions on your use of your PC. Sure, you can make music with it, as long as M$ allows that. With the EULA, M$ could decide tomorrow that making music is a target and require you to pay extra for that privilege. They’ve done such things repeatedly throughout their history. That’s how salesmen run a software company. In my business, education, they decided one night our PCs would take XP SP2 whether we liked it or not and our lab and scanner all quit working. We reinstalled the lab at great time and expense but that scanner never worked again. Lately others have had perfectly legitimate software removed from PCs. Your IT is not safe with M$ as your slave-master.

  123. oiaohm says:

    Please note running windows inside a virtual machine and have a machine big enough todo that is also a method around windows connection limit stupidity.

  124. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus and your usage case is does not apply to Robert either.

    WHat are you talking about? Microsofts license for windows OS has nothing to do with the people that I choose to share the services available on my physical network with.
    Wizard Emeritus sorry go read the EULA you are wrong.
    http://scottiestech.info/2009/08/22/how-to-increase-the-10-connection-limit-on-a-windows-lan/
    Every windows desktop OS has a concurrent connection limit by license. Windows 7-10 is 20 concurrent connections before that it was 10 and that is written into the license. OS X and Linux is as many concurrent connections as your hardware will handle. This does become an issue.
    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-TSN-Driver-Early-RFC
    TSN new standard coming and MIDI over network.

    MIDI over network works perfect on OS X and Linux does not work on Windows desktops that well due to in fact hitting Windows connection limits. 20 concurrent connections does not in fact take very long to burn through at times. Concurrent connection limit is also why running a cluster file system on a Windows desktop can be the biggest mistake ever.

    Basically there are things for audio that Windows cannot do and some of it comes from the restrictions built into the Windows license. Running network controlled hardware for audio recording and generation in mass is something a windows client is a really bad choice for. But a Linux or OS X solution can handle perfectly well.

    So if you choose Windows machine as your audio make platform you really should have a dual boot to Linux to cover the cases where due to windows connection limit it cannot do the job. OS X hardware spec limit is your nightmare. There is no perfect OS for music creation.
    Linux
    1) Very large selection of hardware right up to super computer class if wanted.
    2) most audio hardware support
    3) perfect network support for network controlled hardware.
    4) Limited commercial software options.
    OS X
    1) Limited hardware support.
    2) Limited audio device support.
    3) perfect network support for network controlled hardware.
    4) quite broad commercial software offerings.
    Windows
    1) Limited hardware support compared to Linux more than OS X.
    2) Limited audio device support still more than OS X but still less than Linux.
    3) Limited network support so no good with network controlled audio hardware.
    4) quite broad commercial software offerings.

    That is how it breaks down. If Linux got the commercial audio software side it would be a slam dunk.

  125. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus you don’t want the Linux Desktop forced on you and for effective business Windows Desktops should not be forced on all staff either. ”

    Your comments are irrelevant. I am not talking about business desktops

  126. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “but have you even read the EULA which restricts what you can do with your PC, not M$’s software, like connecting N client machines? ”

    WHat are you talking about? Microsofts license for windows OS has nothing to do with the people that I choose to share the services available on my physical network with.

    “You know both products could be supplied for much less profitably and you are working for $free for Wintel when you pay them.”

    I know that the windows OS license has a certain cost that has been set by microsoft. ANd that is all that I know. Unlike you, I don’t expect something for nothing.

    “Why should you buy a product that requires you to continue to support it instead of just using it? ”

    Again, I do not know what you are talking about. The applications that allow me to notate and re-create my music use the services of Microsoft’s OS to do their job. I just use those applications, its that simple.

    “M$ does not deserve your custom.”

    The microsoft desktop OS license that came with the Dell xps 8900 that I purchased does the job that is required of it. That is all that I require. I just installed my software and got on with making music.

  127. oiaohm says:

    See, the thing about this clause, Robert, is that you only have to activate the license in Iwo Jima or whatever other territory is involved. After that, you are free to use the laptop (etc) at your own convenience, wherever you happen to be.
    Dr Loser this is not the case. If you have a WGA failure you have to run activation to fix it. So the activated windows laptop runs a windows update due to not correcting your timezone when you move areas WGA goes to failed state of course now you are in the wrong territory to activate. Those who travel with region locked versions of windows get to know this one too well.

    The geo locking would not be a issue if after Windows was activated there was no requirement to perform activation again.

    Dr Loser example of problem users are oil rig users who are 6 months on contracts using satellite internet chromebooks and OS X items are popular with them because they don’t fail.

    https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/7/pdf/Desktop_Migration_and_Administration_Guide/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux-7-Desktop_Migration_and_Administration_Guide-en-US.pdf

    You want a migration guide 2016 Wizard Emeritus Turns out Distributions do their own these days that they were not doing in 2006.

    But the IBM Linux Client Migration Cookbook Version 2 from 2006 still contains useful practical tips for implementing it where the Distribution guides mostly cover how to set it up.

    Eighty per cent across the entire commercial world?

    You’re stark staring mad, you swivel-eyed sniveling ancient incompetent old cretin.
    I would not be surprised. There are business out there these days that don’t have a desktop computer or laptop everything is done on server and phone.

    Google who does not have any forced usage of Linux has over 10,000 of there staff using internal maintained ubuntu. 20 percent of their workforce. Ok next figure kinda cause a problem the dominate OS is in fact OS X at 70 percent. So inside google OS X is 1, Ubuntu based 2 and windows is tail of the hunt 3.

    This is the next one French police all operations are Linux.

    http://davelargo.blogspot.com.au/
    This is a interesting blog of an active pure Linux thin client provide system. Yes its all the operations of the City of Largo run through that and he actively blogs what he is doing. I do like Dave note that if you are going to have more people bring there own devices to maintain security since legally you cannot be modifying their devices you end up in a thin-client operation model keeping key critical data server side.

    Do notice something here supporting 6 completely different desktop platforms, Ubuntu Linux, OS X, Windows, Android, Ipad and Chromebooks.

    This is something you start seeing once a central thin-client system is set up for core operations users get to use the OS they like as it no longer causes major operational problems. Major reason for not having MS Office and other things in a thin-client system is the Microsoft costing model.

    I would say the percentage that most likely really require Windows when you get down to it would be only 20 percent. Main reason for companies running all the same desktops is compatibility and what City of Largo shows that can be achieved by running thin-client systems so allowing more diversity.

    The big problem I have with windows dominance in workspace access to software reduction. Windows does not have everything.

    Wizard Emeritus you don’t want the Linux Desktop forced on you and for effective business Windows Desktops should not be forced on all staff either. Person answering emails doing basic word processing… Lot of base day to day business operations really don’t need anything a Linux desktop cannot provide. Do remember staff do have two legs/wheels and can move. You don’t put a book binding machine at every staff members desk. Same applies to software. Only items staff member is doing regularly need to be at their full time desk. Shared workspace areas can be used for odd operational requirements.

    So ibm idea of setting up linux thin-client server is a good starting point. Then start changing the clients. The thin-client system provides the compatibility from user to user without requiring OS on the computer at there desk to be identical.

  128. Dr Loser wrote, “Eighty per cent across the entire commercial world?”

    Neither of us know the entire commercial world, so shut up about it. OTOH I know education and apart from one or two M$-only applications in the office, I’ve not worked in a school that needed TOOS to function well. In fact, schools where I worked definitely did better using GNU/Linux: more seats, faster performance, lower cost, no malware, no slowing down, …

  129. The Wiz wrote, “I can assure you that the reason for this is that the information it contained was not of sufficient use to the IBM customers subsequent to its publication as to warrant further editions.”

    Yes, in reading it, I am struck that IBM is trying to use it to sell its management software rather than GNU/Linux. That’s their business. My take on that same observation is that GNU/Linux is easy enough to manage without IBM’s management software, so folks interested in GNU/Linux didn’t need to hire IBM. The fact that they did produce two editions clearly shows that IBM’s customers were intensely interested in desktop as well as servile GNU/Linux. It must have made points with those folks to have a bit of guidance from IBM if not dollars. I’ll bet IBM sold lots of other services to those same folks. After all, every finger of M$ pried loose from throats freed up market share for IBM and they are willing to compete.

  130. The Wiz wrote, “It would have been even stupider to abandon software that works for me now for software that does not do so, all to avoid having to pay money for something, especially when I can afford to do so.”

    Well, if all slavery was about was paying money for some good or service, that would be much better, but have you even read the EULA which restricts what you can do with your PC, not M$’s software, like connecting N client machines? What if you invite the family over for a LAN-party and they can’t legally connect? What family member are you going to tell to wait? Why should you have to do that? It has nothing to do with copyright and everything about forcing you to do something you are unwilling to do. That’s Freedom at stake, not money. Even wealthy people care about value for money and you get less than what you pay for with M$, Intel too. You know both products could be supplied for much less profitably and you are working for $free for Wintel when you pay them. Any way I look at it, the value of M$’s software is negative. Look how much more it costs to keep it updated and reasonably secure. Why should you buy a product that requires you to continue to support it instead of just using it? You question repairing landscaping tools but not software? What’s with that? M$ does not deserve your custom.

  131. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “It is possible to choose to be a slave but it’s really stupid to ignore freedom when it’s so easily available.”

    It would have been even stupider to abandon software that works for me now for software that does not do so, all to avoid having to pay money for something, especially when I can afford to do so. And in the end, it is my money and I will spend it freely as I wish to do what I want.

    And you can take your slave nonsense and shove it sideways.

  132. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I call out folks who blindly take what Wintel offers them, folks who make no choice except which of several offerings they take from the slavemaster. That’s exactly like a slave choosing the number of beatings he will take but excluding zero as an option. It is possible to choose to be a slave but it’s really stupid to ignore freedom when it’s so easily available.”

    Well aren’t you special Robert Pogson. Perhaps you can point out to me where it says that MakeMusic Inc, Vienna Symphonic, Library, or East-West, are owned by Microsoft. Because these are programs that I use to create and perform my music. In fact, had I decided as I was thinking of purchasing a Apple Mac computer, I would have been able to use all of the same software without any microsoft in he mix. That is because all of my preferred runs on top of OS X, which as it turns out is still the platform of choice for many musicians.

    But In the end I chose to purchase a Dell xps 8900 because…

    (Wait for it…)

    it was a better investment money wise than apple.

    So yes Robert Pogson, I did choose to purchase a wintel system configured run all of my non microsoft authored software on top of a microsoft operating system. I did so not only by informed choice after about a month of research before I retired. I even leveraged an offer of zero interest financing from Dell to purchase the machine in advance of when I had to turn in my NYU Equipment, and then paid it off in full after I received my severance.

    And I have been productively making music since.

  133. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Your cite suggests nothing more than that you have been duped by IBM marketroids.”

    I draw your attention to the fact that this “cookbook” has not had an update since October 13, 2006. As someone who lived and breathed by IBM RedBooks when I worked, I can assure you that the reason for this is that the information it contained was not of sufficient use to the IBM customers subsequent to its publication as to warrant further editions. I also note that in all the time that I had interaction with our IBM support team from 2006 until my retirement, I encountered only member of our suppoprt team who used a linux desktop. all of the rest of them used windows systems in standardized configuration created by IBM for its employees. When I inquired of one of them why he had not been converted to a linux desktop, I was informed that IBM’s client facing employees had not been converted, but would probably not be concerted for the foreseeable future as it caused too much disruption in their workflows.

    Its all good, eh?

  134. Dr Loser says:

    The more the client fits a thin or slim client model, the easier it is to migrate to a Linux client.

    From page 41. I assume the previous forty pages were equally as inspiring.

    And the less the client fits that model, the more difficult it is, I suppose.

    Eighty per cent across the entire commercial world?

    You’re stark staring mad, you swivel-eyed sniveling ancient incompetent old cretin.

  135. Dr Loser says:

    IBM, being in the business of helping businesses do IT, wrote a book about it, Linux Client Migration Cookbook Version II. They did a lot of migrations since Version I.

    All very interesting, but so what? A cookbook is a cookbook. It aspires to mechanism, not to results.

    My cite suggests that you are out of your mind and that your claim is thoroughly unsubstantiable.

    Your cite suggests nothing more than that you have been duped by IBM marketroids.

  136. Dr Loser says:

    One other small thought on “control,” Robert.

    This time, not referring to the kernel. Let’s contemplate the user space you “control” for a while, shall we?

    Would you care to estimate how much of that user space is devoted to Pascal, your language of repeated choice, and one over which you have some claim for “control?”

    And, vice versa, how much of that user space is devoted to C, a language you have repeatedly deprecated, and one over which your most recent effort at “control,” as I remember fondly, was a wretched little patch to GEBC that simply widened the font on a header?

    Not a bad idea, that, Robert. It probably saved you enough money on a new pair of bifocals (say $70) to be able to buy some under-powered inadequate RAM for your next pretend serverlette.

    But, y’know?

    Not really convincing. Not in terms of “control.”

  137. Dr Loser, not knowing a cite when it hits him in the face wrote, “That doesn’t amount to ~80% of users in business, Robert.”

    IBM, being in the business of helping businesses do IT, wrote a book about it, Linux Client Migration Cookbook Version II. They did a lot of migrations since Version I.
    “2.1 Why Migrate For many business environments today, Linux-based client computers can
    already provide a fully functional and cost-effective alternative to Microsoft
    Windows. The decision whether or not to migrate in your environment depends
    on many factors. It is important that you carefully consider all of the technical and
    organizational challenges before making any decisions. There are many
    situations where, on technical merits alone, a Linux-based client computing
    strategy is hard to beat.
    …p 41 The more the client fits a thin or slim client model, the easier it is to migrate to a Linux client. This leads to most early migrations only including the thin clients in an organization and leaving fat clients in their present state. It can also bring
    organizations to move to a thinner client prior to migrating to an alternative client
    operating system altogether….Before performing a migration and handling the unmigratables, some organizations try to move away from applications that do not migrate easily. The best way to do this is to move the application to a portal-based application. This not only facilitates moving to a Linux client, but then the application also is not a problem in any future migrations….Planning tip: You should expect that the migration of clients that fit into the more advanced functional segments as defined in the right side of Figure 3-1 (RP:five categories of desktop of which 4 are easily migratable and which are most numerous) on page 50 requires more intensive application and data migration steps. In considering the overall cost of migration, it might be appropriate to identify and migrate only those workstation segments that fit into the left side of this figure. As native Linux applications for the desktop mature and become more readily available, migration of the more advanced client functional segments, as shown in the right side of Figure 3-1 on page 50, should become more
    common.”

  138. Dr Loser says:

    How’s the “control” over systemd going, Robert?

    It’s pretty much the same sort of control you have over /etc and the kernel in general. And quite possibly something you should apply yourself more to.

    Because, you know what? In five years’ time, you won’t have the choice. It will be systemd or nothing.

    Leaving ignorant incompetents like yourself behind in the dust.

  139. Dr Loser says:

    Oh, and your fundamentally insane proposition that, say, 80% of IBM employees use the Linux desktop exclusively?

    Well, I’m not going to claim that my cite is definitive, Robert. Then again, you haven’t actually provided one, have you? Which means that you are naked and defenseless.

    However, my cite has five answers to the question. One appears not to be directly involved with IBM, and this is the only answer that backs you up.

    The other four? Three IBMers and a chief architect who deals closely with IBM. You will of course enjoy their responses:

    “The Windows XP C4EB is currently the most dominant and I would estimate it to be used by over 90% of the employee population (350,000+ people).”

    “From my observation a few months ago, very few people in services (global business services, global technology services) use Linux. In software development lab, many products are developed primarily on Linux, and thus lots of employees use Linux. Even if their day-to-day laptop is not Linux, many of them connect to more powerful development machines or servers to do development.”

    “IBMers are broadly free to choose the OS that allows them to be the most productive in their day jobs, and the internal applications are generally available across all three of the major “desktop” OSes. You could also start to ask, what percentage of employees choose iOS, BlackBerry, Windows Mobile 7 or Android! :-)”

    “From my personal experience (IBM Germany), I’d say: The majority still uses Windows clients.”

    You’ve been caught out telling outrageous and entirely unjustifiable porkies again, haven’t you, old man?

  140. Dr Loser says:

    Well, it’s been two days, Robert. And I did promise a response in the face of your inevitable sniveling worthless silence on the matter.

    EULA from Hell: “8. Geographic and Export Restrictions. If your software is restricted for use in a particular geographic region, then you may activate the software only in that region. You must also comply with all domestic and international export laws and regulations that apply to the software, which include restrictions on destinations, end users, and end use. For further information on geographic and export restrictions, visit (aka.ms/georestrict) and (aka.ms/exporting).”

    Now then. Let’s examine your prior claims.

    Iwo Jima doesn’t work as a claim, you sniveling lying little cheapskate loser.

    The TLW doesn’t work as a claim, you sniveling lying little cheapskate loser.

    In fact, nothing works at all, does it, you sniveling lying little cheapskate loser, Robert?

    Because, you know what? There is nothing whatsoever in the terms of this EULA that in any way prohibit, say, the unfortunate consort of a miserly old man in Winnipeg from, say, purchasing a Windows license in Iwo Jima, or for that matter anywhere else, and making full use of that license wherever in the rest of the world they choose to roam, free both of their wretched other half and also of the insistent moaning about TOOS.

    I like to think that TLW rather enjoys these trips of hers, Robert. And not least because she is entirely untrammeled by the TOOS license … not to mention the strict Edwardian insistence that she uses total rubbish like the Linux desktop.

    See, the thing about this clause, Robert, is that you only have to activate the license in Iwo Jima or whatever other territory is involved. After that, you are free to use the laptop (etc) at your own convenience, wherever you happen to be.

    Other than the Pog Household, of course, where you will be forced to listen to the constant sniveling whine of a pathetic old liar.

    Now, isn’t that nice of Microsoft?

    You wanna try that “georestrict” garbage? Go ahead and try it, you sniveling old failure.

  141. Dr Loser wrote, “If you don’t have control over your scheduling strategy, Robert, then you have very little meaningful control over the kernel at all.”

    I set kernel build-parameters all the time in .config and I can use sysctl or /proc/ to tweak options in real time or at boot. Optimization of the sort Dr Loser describes is relatively useless because of the diverse tasks of Beast. What’s the point of optimizing for one database when I have a dozen and databasery makes up about 1% of my utilization? Beast is mostly idling and when it is busy just a few tasks are getting an even share with make so scheduling is my last concern. The only thing scheduling might improve is responsiveness on the desktop and Kolivas worked that out. However, he does not maintain his patch well enough to depend on it. I’m generally satisfied with responsiveness. Real issues are going 100% gigabit and 1TB drives in RAID. I’m spending time and money on those things that work for me.

  142. Dr Loser says:

    I control the kernel. I control /etc.

    Stop being a feeble-minded fantasist, Robert. The only control you have over /etc is the partition size (which will be eaten into by whatever gubbins you choose to dump in there). That’s actually no different to having “control” over a Windows D: drive.

    And the only “control” you are capable of exercising over the kernel is your hamster-wheel fetish of picking a new point build at unseemly short intervals. I bet you don’t even run proper diagnostics and performance tuning tests when you do this.

    But, let’s for the sake of argument, assume that you are capable of “controlling” your kernel. This might be a good idea, since your “upper class” idea of spending money on RAM seems to amount to eating your own face off in order to save $330. Kernel control is important!

    Try this one then. Let’s say you want to optimize your SSD by using the noop scheduler, whilst also optimizing the database/network part by using the deadline or the anticipatory schedulers for those processes/kernel threads. You are of course aware that not a single one of these schedulers is the default. Off the top of your head, I assume you can tell us what the default scheduler is.

    Now then. How would you go about doing this? Bonus points: why pick deadline over anticipatory, or vice versa, or even the default scheduler over both?

    I’m going to politely request that oiaohm, who has a good grasp of these things, I think, stay silent until you have finished pondering.

    If you don’t have control over your scheduling strategy, Robert, then you have very little meaningful control over the kernel at all.

  143. Dr Loser says:

    Assert.Pog: Reliable statistics state ~80% of users in business can switch right over.
    Me: You do indeed have a cite to that effect?
    Hogwash.Pog: Several. See Google, IBM, and others who migrated a large percentage of employees to GNU/Linux.

    That doesn’t amount to ~80% of users in business, Robert.

    Your statistics are not so much inaccurate as totally meaningless. Your assertion is not true.

    Either grovel up a cite or two, or admit that you are making a total fool of yourself here, as per usual.

  144. oiaohm wrote, “before getting non-ecc will pay for confirmation that the CELLO is not locked ECC on by firmware”

    What firmware is that? I control the kernel. I control /etc.

    See Linaro announces Software Reference Platform for ARM servers
    “The Reference Software Platform releases are expected to be used by Linaro members and the wider community for enterprise products and cloud instance development and deployment. Releases will be provided for different market segments, and early access to the Linaro Enterprise Group (LEG) and Linaro Mobile Group (LMG) builds is now available. The alpha release of the LEG build offers a complete reference implementation for ARM servers, including open source boot software and firmware implementing the ARM Trusted Firmware, UEFI and ACPI standards, a Linux 4.4 kernel, tested latest Debian and CentOS distributions, OpenStack, OpenJDK, Hadoop and Spark.”

  145. The Wiz wrote, “someone who is so obviously a slave to his money”

    ?

    Money was invented to facilitate exchange. I’m doing a lot of exchanging and working for myself too. I was out in the garden yesterday and figure 3/4 of it will be an orchard in a couple of years. Then there’s the rest of the yard. I have one side and a few other pockets growing fruit and nuts. Just how am I a slave to money? I drive a luxury car and live in a high-priced neighbourhood in an upper-class home. I have lots of choices how I spend my money despite TLW spending a lot. One thing I don’t have to do is tailor my spending to suit Wintel. Anything but Wintel is a huge slice of IT and it works for me.

  146. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Written like a true slave, unquestioning the bondage. There’s still hope. He may see something out there he wants beyond the end of his chain.”

    Over and above the fact that I do not take lectures on “slavery” by someone who is so obviously a slave to his money. Have you ever thought to question your bondage Robert Pogson?

  147. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson I do know the 6 thousand dollar boards A1100 from 2014 would not work without ECC ram. Must been change now AMD is making them out of their normal fab or its firmware difference. Interesting how you get caught with these chips.

    Also, I would request you to contact your motherboard manufacturer to know more about it.
    That line suggest that its can be firmware locked on. So the A1100 has a ECC on and off option but that line suggest motherboard manufacturer can choose to disable option of booting ECC off. So a little bit more snooping on the 2014 board on my part. So before getting non-ecc will pay for confirmation that the CELLO is not locked ECC on by firmware matching behaviour of earlier boards .

    Jumping for joy a little too soon Robert Pogson. This is the required dotting of i and crossing of t with these boards. AMD support people are not knowing for give a “I would request” line and it be an optional action.

  148. I have a reply from AMD.
    “As I understand that you have a query regarding the compatibility of the ECC RAM with the A1100 Opteron processors. If I have missed out on critical information on your email please get back to me as my suggestions may change. But do not worry as am here to help you.
     
    I want to let you know that you will be able to use the non ECC RAM with the A1100 processors, Also, I would request you to contact your motherboard manufacturer to know more about it.”

    As I expected, non-ECC RAM will work with the chip and its memory-controller. There still could be some software depending on ECC but that should be a boot-time configuration that I should be able to tweak if necessary. So, I could use 2X8GB or 2X16GB

    Let’s see. $70.51 for 16GB or $400 for 32gB… Maybe 16GB will be enough. That’s four times what Beast has.

  149. oiaohm says:

    http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/policy-faqs/online-copyright-infringement-faqs#VPN
    This shows you what Australian government thinks of GEOIP blocking. You will find the ACCC as well recommend Australians use VPN to bi-pass GEOIP blocking because it basically illegal to use against Australians.

    The idea of regional split pricing and licensing is not in fact legal by Australian law.

  150. oiaohm says:

    Iwo Jima is one of the downlink sites for the Iridium satellite constellation.

    And which particular bit of astrology are you referring to with this “constellation” thing, Fifi?
    Proving you are a idiot again Dr Loser.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_constellation

    The official name for a group of Satellites orbiting the earth working with each other is a Satellite Constellation and yes they do show up on telescopes.

    I just meant changing location from where a PC was sold with TOOS to some random spot on the globe.
    So Robert by pure chance picked something that a PC any where on earth hooked up to a Iridium device for internet might appear coming from. Yes hooking up to the Iridium system for in internet is a magic roll dice of random choice of downlink locations effectively making you random spot on earth surface to you.

    The main reason why for downlinks Iwo Jima is used is
    1) Its in middle of no where.
    2) Its has full mil exclude zone.
    3) Everything on the Island is regulated.
    4) For some strange reason the island gets very little cloud cover and weather.
    Result of those 4 very low interference values. In fact the 4 is why it one of the most dependable downlinks in all of the Iridium set-up and why you can roll the dice and end up with you downlink there more times than you would expect.

    For company who geoip lock there product. Unless you include Australian IP addresses as universal you are in fact breaking Australian law.
    https://www.accc.gov.au/business/treating-customers-fairly/selling-parallel-imports
    Part of Australian Fair Trade laws include the right to sell parallel imports.

    In a recent copyright case in Australia there was a nasty ruling. Copyright on product could only enforced from the date of release in Australia because until its release in Australia it has no value. So time from first release anywhere on earth until release in Australia is freebie time for Australians. Since the movie at the centre of claim had not be released in Australia at the time people were downloading it the complete case was thrown out of court. Now if product is stolen before release anywhere that is still an offence Australia but once it released you have 48 hours to release in Australia after that Australians can take it for free until the Australian release. So there is a window here where copyright is not enforceable cause by failure to release in Australia.

    There are a lot of complaints about Australian taking a lot of content without paying but a large percentage of it turns out to be content not released in Australia so by Australian law legal for Australians to take as compensation for failure to release.

    Yes in Australia if you have legal parallel imports and the DRM will not work due to geo destination restrictions issues and you are cracking it you are not committing a crime because you a just restoring legal rights to use a parallel import.

    Now of other countries pass equal laws GEOIP locking may become a very big stupid mistake. Better to be paid less than finding you are not allowed to be paid anything and having to give the product away for free as compensation for releasing late. Australians being legally allowed to crack DVD regional coding was about the Australian legal right to use parallel imports. Yes you can DRM protect your content and be legal in Australia but the DRM cannot contain a GEO limitation effecting Australians or you are on the wrong side of the law.

    There is nothing illegal with controlling the sales of what is one’s property. Microsoft has the right to set the terms of their license as they wish, region by region worldwide within the confines of local law.
    Wizard Emeritus so this bit under Australia law same with other countries does not exact hold. Australian right to use parallel imports does not only apply to when the Australian is in Australia.

    Its something people are not aware of. Australian is overseas does something that is breach of Australian law and it documented they can be charged in Australia even if what they did was legal by the local law. So local law + person own nationality laws equals the laws in effect this also applies to all contracts. The confines of local law idea is basically complete wrong. Add in the legal right to parallel imports that some countries laws have like Australia you have some major problem implementing region by region licensing legally.

  151. Dr Loser wrote, “you do indeed have a cite to that effect.”

    Several. See Google, IBM, and others who migrated a large percentage of employees to GNU/Linux. IBM described the process in the Linux Migration Cookbook. I too have done a few migrations with great results. Just do it.

  152. Dr Loser says:

    A very, very silly OP in the first place, btw, Robert.

    But just out of interest, what “intended” consequences of slavery would you give your wholehearted support to?

    And in what way would you differentiate them from the unintended ones?

    I mean, for goodness’ sake. You must have had some point to this OP. However feeble-minded and second-hand it might have been.

  153. Dr Loser says:

    Ah well. To redeem myself, at least in part.

    Since we’re on the subject of “Unintended consequences of slavery,” can anybody tell me what happens when you release an app on Android that depends upon the very popular SQLite?

    Clue: Java. Further clue: Slavery.

  154. Dr Loser says:

    Wow, I take that back. There really is such a thing.

    Sometimes I just assume that Fifi cannot spell to save her life. In this case, I have to apologise for being wrong.

  155. Dr Loser says:

    Iwo Jima is one of the downlink sites for the Iridium satellite constellation.

    And which particular bit of astrology are you referring to with this “constellation” thing, Fifi?

    No, let me guess. Just tell me the microwave frequency and the relevant thickness of the tin-foil hat involved.

  156. Dr Loser says:

    Indeed, I meant nothing particular with that reference. [Iwo Jima]

    Nice to see how you reeled Fifi in on a completely stupid and irrelevant and inaccurate guess, though, isn’t it, Robert? Nothing like watching two ignorant buffoons battling against each other on totally spurious grounds.

    One day left for your defense of your position on para 8 of the aforementioned EULA, btw. See you tomorrow!

  157. Dr Loser says:

    Reliable statistics state ~80% of users in business can switch right over.

    At some stage, Robert, I am going to have to forgo being on your side, and merely suggesting that you are repeating other people’s lies.

    That point in time is coming ever closer.

    You, of course, have a second-hand cite for this fatuous datum, I presume? Possibly Schestowitz, or some other maniac?

    Because, if you don’t, Robert, we are going to have to assume that you made it up yourself.

    Purely home-spun by a miserly lunatic in Manitoba. Completely out of thin air.

    Luckily we don’t have to assume that, and you do indeed have a cite to that effect.

    Don’t you?

  158. The Wiz wrote for “99% of computer desktop users.”

    Yeah. Who put you in charge? Reliable statistics state ~80% of users in business can switch right over. I think schools are >90%. The only problems we ever had were with a DVD player and non-Free software on the DVD discs. That’s one out of thousands of users.

    Further, web stats show some regions have >3% usage. I think Uruguay is on a tear with ~14%, thanks to the kids at school. So, take your ~1% and shove it somewhere else.

    The Wiz also wrote, ” I don’t neet to read the EULA or the GPL for that matter.”

    Written like a true slave, unquestioning the bondage. There’s still hope. He may see something out there he wants beyond the end of his chain.

  159. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I’m sure a computer with TOOS can run on Iwo Jima, but will M$ allow it? Do you feel lucky? Read the EULA carefully and you won’t. Read the GPL instead and have a great day.”

    Thank you Robert Pogson. I am having a great day working on my music on my windows desktop. I don’t neet to read the EULA or the GPL for that matter. I know is the Linux as a desktop is not and probably never will be fit for my purpose nor for the purposes of 99% of computer desktop users.

    But do keep bleating your half truths and obsolete experiences – they can be quite amusing to those who know better.

  160. oiaohm, digging up amazing relevance for Iwo Jima, wrote, “what particular references mean.”

    Indeed, I meant nothing particular with that reference. I just meant changing location from where a PC was sold with TOOS to some random spot on the globe. In one case about which I’ve written, WGdisA prevented Vista from running at a location in the North without Internet or phone access. I paved that machine with GNU/Linux so it would be fit for purpose. M$ doesn’t guarantee fitness for purpose but I can, using FLOSS. WGdisA is a case of “multiple points of failure” of which TOOS has many. There used to be fifty reasons to switch to GNU/Linux. I think WGdisA makes it an even hundred. Do you really own your PC or does it own you? That is the question and why I chose GNU/Linux so many years ago. I didn’t frame the question that way at first but reading US DOJ v M$ convinced me. I first thought of it as “Does your computer run at all with TOOS?”. The ones in my classroom didn’t, at least for more than a few hours. With GNU/Linux they ran for months without problems. I’m sure a computer with TOOS can run on Iwo Jima, but will M$ allow it? Do you feel lucky? Read the EULA carefully and you won’t. Read the GPL instead and have a great day.

  161. luvr says:

    “I’m dealing with clowns here.”

    Ah! I just knew that there had to be a logical explanation why you feel right at home here! 🙂 🙂 🙂

  162. oiaohm says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iwo_Jima
    You still don’t get it, do you? “Iwo Jima” is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. You can replace it with, say “Irkutsk” if that makes you feel any better.
    This is not knowing the topic from both Dr Loser and luvr. Iwo Jima is an old USA mil base near japan that is now Japan mil totally controlled with some side work for some ventures done by Japan mil personal.

    Iwo Jima one of the satellite downlink locations from sats covering the north of Australia and 1 fully global constellation so you can have a IP address with a GEOIP of Iwo Jima without being there.

    Iwo Jima is one of the downlink sites for the Iridium satellite constellation. Yes officially no civilian population on Iwo Jima other than approved visitors. So with oddness of the Iridium satellite network is you could be connecting in the USA or CA and in fact have a GEOIP of Iwo Jima due to satellite to satellite relaying then finally getting to downlink. Yes Iwo Jima lines up with those with experience dealing with satellite constellation odd-ness. Dealing with sat internet anywhere in the world with satellite to satellite relaying in the constellation gets really GEOIP confusing very quickly.

    Basically this is just another case of Dr Loser knowing nothing and attempting to make an attack. Basically having WGA fail because it believes you are coming from Iwo Jima instead of CA, USA, or Australia or anywhere else global using Iridium satellite constellation for internet connection can and does happen. Same with all the other Iridium Satellite downlink locations. Fairly much Iridium satellite constellation with downlink selection is very much do you feel lucky today because its going to downlink you were it sees fit with what ever GEOIP value it sees fit hopefully software you are using is not GEOIP sensitive.

    The fact that Iwo Jima offically has no civilian population so only Microsoft licenses there most of the time is Volume. Retail/OEM copy of Windows attempting to activate/WGA from Iwo Jima should be in face we have some one downlinking by satellite somewhere on the earth surface. Yes all those GEO restrictions written into licenses come unworkable/unenforceable software side with these problems unless you do end up creating false positives.

    I’m dealing with clowns here.
    No its mostly that you are a idiot Dr Loser who does not understand what particular references mean.

  163. luvr says:

    “Guess who mentioned Iwo Jima first?”

    You still don’t get it, do you? “Iwo Jima” is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. You can replace it with, say “Irkutsk” if that makes you feel any better.

    (And, no, the discussion isn’t about Irkutsk either.)

  164. oiaohm says:

    I had heard so many things about WGA that I expected something to go wrong when the update came to my 2 XP machines (after I finally decided to update them, lol). Nope, in both machines it just run, checked, and never bothered me again.
    kurkosdr I guess not portables travelling. So not going over what trip it.

    As far as WGA is concerned the reality is that the WGA code is at this point working as it should and for most people most people its execution is a non-event. For those few who are effected, there are sufficient multiple alternative options to mitigate any inconveniences WGA causes.
    Yes this is true Wizard Emeritus.
    But lets list solutions for those effected.
    1) WSUS with VPN.
    2) VPN back to right region in external device to windows machines because WGA will directly attempt to use connected networks so bi-passing VPN installed inside windows.
    3) Firewall out WGA parts using some of the third party firewalls and pray that this never changes from current state of successful.
    4) Don’t cross time zones or have government change time-zones in stupid ways so requiring a custom timezone. Timezone change is the biggest trigger to WGA playing up and it documented by all OEM from Windows XP to Windows 10.
    5) Don’t use Windows. Yes if travelling a lot it can be simpler to use OS X or something Linux as both don’t have the timezone issue so don’t have to do one of the before steps at all.

    Dr Loser Dell HP …. would no have web pages decanted to fixing WGA issues if these things did not happen.

    Of course, the Linux folks tried to claim they were against WGA on philosophical/privacy grounds… But despite their best efforts to prove a privacy foul, none was found.
    Not true to claim that none was found kurkosdr.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Genuine_Advantage#Data_collected
    When inspect there were privacy issues found particularly that most of the Data collected was send not encrypted. So yes there is a privacy issue just not a super large one. Only since windows 8.1 did Microsoft start encrypting the data to avoid lawsuit. Also please note WGA application parts run as a hidden process that don’t show up in a normal task list. What Microsoft built-in to hide WGA has become a god send to malware/viruses.

    The false positive rate of Windows Genuine Advantage is documented at about effecting over 1 million users so not exactly a small problem. There are a particular list of conditions that make the odds of being hit by its false positive a lot higher. Travelling crossing time-zones is one of them.

    PS: Buy your OS folks, it’s the base of your PC. Everything running above is replacable and hence pirate-able, but not the OS.
    Stupid logic. Acquiring software illegally is also dealing with people with low moral grounds. Some people pirate their anti-virus software then get upset when it turns out to be pre virus infected. Legally acquire your software or risk the software you acquire bricking your motherboard.

    http://www.securityartwork.es/2013/10/30/badbios-2/?lang=en
    There are some serous bad ass malware infections hidden in some of the markets for illegal software. Yes bios infections so your computer bios had a hypervisor installed that makes it part of a botnet network and after install no possibility of re-flashing it out by software. After this point unless you know how to remove bios chip and put it in a writer or have a gigabyte board dual bios(force switching to the read only bios) you are stuck with hardware you have to write off. One bit of bad software OS or Application also could be kiss your hardware good by could be possible particularly if critical power management has been stuffed up so leading to CPU and the like overheating due to incorrect bios flashing. So anyone who thinks using illegal acquired software is without major risks is a idiot. If you cannot afford the software work out how to make do with the FOSS software at least this way you are not risking your hardware.

  165. kurkosdr says:

    Perhaps you could start us off by showing somebody who is affected by WGA, Luvr?

    Ahh… WGA… I remember those days. Discussion forums were choke-full of people whose totally valid XP licenses had been mis-identified by WGA as counterfeit, asking for advice how to remove it, with half the replies being to the tune of “you should have turned windows update off, duh”.

    I had heard so many things about WGA that I expected something to go wrong when the update came to my 2 XP machines (after I finally decided to update them, lol). Nope, in both machines it just run, checked, and never bothered me again.

    Lucky person I was, with so many linux folks with XP VMs and so many PC gamer d00ds with custom-built PCs having their legit licenses being flagged as counterfeit.

    Of course, the Linux folks tried to claim they were against WGA on philosophical/privacy grounds… But despite their best efforts to prove a privacy foul, none was found.

    PS: Buy your OS folks, it’s the base of your PC. Everything running above is replacable and hence pirate-able, but not the OS.

  166. Dr Loser says:

    That’s obvious… It [Iwo Jima] came into the conversation because you were too stupid to understand that it was irrelevant.

    Er, what?

    Would you care to search this post? Guess who mentioned Iwo Jima first?

    And while you’re at it, note the spurious second-hand lie attached to that mention.

    I’m dealing with clowns here.

  167. Dr Loser says:

    That is quite a statement to make, Wiz. Do you have any proof to back your assertion?

    Perhaps you could start us off by showing somebody who is affected by WGA, Luvr?

    We can take it from there. Logical step by logical step.

    Oh, I forgot. You don’t believe in logical argument, do you?

  168. luvr says:

    “Otherwise we can all agree that Iwo Jima is an irrelevancy.”

    Bwahahahaha… Did it really take you this long to understand this?

    how Iwo Jima comes into the conversation in any way

    That’s obvious… It came into the conversation because you were too stupid to understand that it was irrelevant.

  169. luvr says:

    “For those few who are effected, there are sufficient multiple alternative options to mitigate any inconveniences WGA causes.”

    That is quite a statement to make, Wiz. Do you have any proof to back your assertion? 🙂

  170. The Wiz wrote, “What you prefer is to get your software for free, and the generosity of the (IMHO) fools who create FOSS allows you that.” and “Microsoft has the right to set the terms of their license as they wish, region by region worldwide within the confines of local law.”

    Well, if folks want their works widely distributed they have wide latitude. It’s not foolish however they choose to do it. With FLOSS, in particular, one needn’t produce the product alone so the investment in the product per individual may be quite small so that permission to copy is more like PR than a sale. It’s all good. I don’t begrudge M$ making a product that’s widely used. I begrudge the way they did it by stifling competition instead of producing a great product from the beginning. I begrudge that I have to buy from a whole different ecosystem to avoid their tentacles but I will do that gladly. Too bad more don’t make that choice. Oh, they have. They are buying */Linux on ARM several to one over M$’s ecosystem. Good.

  171. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I prefer an OS and licensing regime that works for me, not against me.”

    What you prefer is to get your software for free, and the generosity of the (IMHO) fools who create FOSS allows you that. Beyond that real fact, What you prefer is Irrelevant as is your opinion of what other people prefer.

  172. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “That’s not what copyright is about. ”

    I’m sure that you would like it that way, but fortunately for software creators the opinions of Robert Pogson are not law.

  173. The Wiz wrote, “There is nothing illegal with controlling the sales of what is one’s property.”

    That’s not true. Try offering your house to “whites only” or forbidding resale to “non-whites”. M$ certainly should be able to set the terms for sales but not for resales or moving stuff around the world. That’s not what copyright is about. Copyright is about copying, not sales or shipping.

  174. Dr Loser says:

    Which particular Wintel product does TLW favor, whilst on her travels, btw?

    I ask only so that I can check out the EULA for clauses relating to Iwo Jima.

  175. Dr Loser says:

    Then why is it in the snippet from the EULA that I quoted below?

    That’s a very good question, Robert. My preliminary answer is that Iwo Jima is not mentioned once in that snippet. I presume you have some reason for selecting Iwo Jima as your territory of choice? If so, pray furnish evidence concerning Iwo Jima . Otherwise we can all agree that Iwo Jima is an irrelevancy.

    Once we have established, to our mutual satisfaction, and no doubt accompanied by your deafening silence on the matter, that Iwo Jima is an irrelevancy, we can proceed towards a more rigorous analysis of your snippet. I am willing to do this, provided either that (a) you explain how Iwo Jima comes into the conversation in any way, or (b) two days pass, in which case I shall assume that you have tacitly accepted defeat on the matter of Iwo Jima.

    This is like pulling hens’ teeth, aided by a particularly obstreperous two year old child with a persecution complex.

    Never mind, Robert. I shall revisit the topic in the stipulated two days, on the presumption that you won’t admit you were repeating other people’s lies regarding Iwo Jima in the first place.

    I’m quite confident that you won’t admit to repeating baseless lies. Not in this case. In fact, given the last ten years of this blog, never.

    Why am I so confident, Robert? Because that is not what paranoid nutters do.

  176. The Wiz wrote, “As far as WGA is concerned the reality is that the WGA code is at this point working as it should”.

    How many years did it take M$ to fix that, eh? How much anguish, cost and delay did it cost in the meantime? I prefer an OS and licensing regime that works for me, not against me.

  177. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “They can use copyright to prevent copies sold in one geographical region from being used in another so it does not have to compete with itself on price”

    There is nothing illegal with controlling the sales of what is one’s property. Microsoft has the right to set the terms of their license as they wish, region by region worldwide within the confines of local law.

    As far as WGA is concerned the reality is that the WGA code is at this point working as it should and for most people most people its execution is a non-event. For those few who are effected, there are sufficient multiple alternative options to mitigate any inconveniences WGA causes.

  178. The Wiz wrote, “Do you have any proof to back your assertion?”

    Sure, see M$’s regional licensing.
    “The Microsoft Open License, Open Value, and Open Value Subscription programs (the Open Programs) allow customers to share agreements and accompanying benefits—such as price levels, centralized license management, and license transfer — with their legal Affiliates throughout a Defined Region. Consolidation of purchase, license transfer, and sublicensing are not allowed beyond the Defined Region boundaries identified below.”

  179. The Wiz wrote, “Do you have any proof to back your assertion?”

    Sure. Read US DOJ v M$.
    “In contrast to other operating system vendors, Microsoft both refused to license its operating system without a browser and imposed restrictions — at first contractual and later technical — on OEMs’ and end users’ ability to remove its browser from its operating system. As its internal contemporaneous documents and licensing practices reveal, Microsoft decided to bind Internet Explorer to Windows in order to prevent Navigator from weakening the applications barrier to entry, rather than for any pro-competitive purpose. “

    M$ has proven that it will do anything to stifle competition. They can use copyright to prevent copies sold in one geographical region from being used in another so it does not have to compete with itself on price. Otherwise the price of the OS in USA would be ~$3 as it was in Vietnam. WGdisA is a simple mechanism to enforce that. Geolocation by IP address tells their servers when a product has crossed the line.

  180. wizard emeritus says:

    “M$ put that in there for a reason, to mess with people/divide and conquer…”

    That is quite a statement to make Robert Pogson. Do you have any proof to back your assertion?

  181. DrLoser wrote, “I take it, given your deafening silence on the subject, that you have no evidence whatsoever that anybody “from Iwo Jima” has suffered the horrors you describe”.

    Then why is it in the snippet from the EULA that I quoted below? M$ put that in there for a reason, to mess with people/divide and conquer, and WGdisA definitely has messed with people in the millions. I’ve met some. I’ve been the victim. That’s one of dozens of reasons to quit using TOOS.

  182. Dr Loser says:

    I take it, given your deafening silence on the subject, that TLW has never once suffered the horrors you describe, with regard to non-functioning Microsoft licenses during international travel.

    I take it, given your deafening silence on the subject, that you have no evidence whatsoever that anybody “from Iwo Jima” has suffered the horrors you describe, either.

    Which, in practical terms, means that nobody “from Iwo Jima” has suffered the horrors you describe.

    Which means that you were either lying, or repeating the lies of others.

    Which is a sniveling, yellow-belly, ignorant and thoroughly intellectually dishonest way of conducting yourself, Robert. It’s beneath the standards of a scientist. It’s beneath the standards of an educator. And it’s unquestionably immoral.

    You know what people at large do when some clueless uninformed putz like you makes outrageous claims and then refuses to retract them, despite having no evidence to support them? They laugh. They jeer. They treat anything you say with the sort of credence normally reserved for a particularly imaginative toddler.

    So, nothing new here then.

    On a related note, you never did explain how your wife comes to rely on Microsoft products when she’s on her travels without you. I wonder if the above analysis is an explanation?

    I do believe it is.

  183. The Wiz wrote, “Waiting for a so called cheap product that becomes no so cheap when you try to configure it at the memory density that you want does’nt make sense IMHO.”

    It doesn’t make sense to pay for stuff I don’t want like 10gb-E and way more sockets than I need just to save on RAM. I can settle for 16GB ECC. It’s readily available at a good price. I can upgrade RAM if I ever need to do that. I expect the larger modules will be more available once they sell a million Cellos or compact servers take off. If non-ECC works, the problem is solved. I like ECC but it’s not essential. I can always sniff files in storage to refresh copies in RAM.

  184. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “ECC is scarce and very expensive RAM in SODIMM. ”

    SO then why not spend more on the gigabyte mp30-ar0 motherboard? you will get 8 dimm sockets and you can then save money on the less dense dimms’. Plus its actually shipping.

    Waiting for a so called cheap product that becomes no so cheap when you try to configure it at the memory density that you want does’nt make sense IMHO.

  185. oiaohm wrote, “Seams like the idea is Development boards are feature limited boards.”

    That’s true. It’s an important way to lower costs to developers who may want to get a single function working on a cheap machine to propagate to racks-full of big hardware. At the same time the specifications are vague. Supporting ECC is not the same as requiring it. ECC is just a few extra bits per word in the transfer. If they are not there, there’s no requirement that the system should stop, just raise an alarm which can be ignored if that is the wish of the user. In my case, I would like ECC but it is scarce as hen’s teeth in SO-DIMMs. 2x8gB SO-DIMMs are pretty standard and you can buy kits for <$100. You can buy them with ECC for a bit over $100 CDN. You can buy 2X16GB for about $250 CDN but in ECC the price jumps because neither Crucial nor Kingston makes them… They are very scarce. Then there’s registered/unregistered. AMD and Lemaker don’t say… It’s as if they are trying to prevent interest in the market. Very strange.

    In their wiki, 96boards recommends this part and states RAM must be ECC.

    I sent an e-mail to AMD to ask their opinion.:
    “Do AMD A1100 SoCs work with non-ECC RAM? From the sparse information available from AMD: “Configurable dual DDR3 or DDR4 memory channels with ECC at up to 1866 MT/second” So we know the A1100s will work with ECC RAM but will they work with non-ECC RAM? The problem I have is that I want 32gB RAM but after 16gB, 2X8gB, ECC is scarce and very expensive RAM in SODIMM. This is for a planned acquisition of Lemaker Cello motherboard with two DDR3 SODIMM sockets. I use ECC or not with AMD64 systems. It is optional. Is it an option with A1100 SoCs?”

  186. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson Arm memory controllers can different to common x86 ones.

    I assume if you don’t load EDAC, the A1100 won’t care one way or another.
    This is the trap that gets people. A1100 will check and validate ECC with or without EDAC loaded. There is no on/off switch on the ECC and the ECC checking is not OS dependant at all. Handling of ECC errors is is improved by EDAC being loaded on ARM.

    The EE standard requires AMD64 or ARM modules to work the same way.
    The EE standard does not forbid modules from rejecting non-ECC ram. The standard only requires the modules to work with ECC ram inserted(even if they are not processing ECC) if they work with non-ECC that is vendor option.

    Its something to be aware with ARM, MIPS and Power chips you get versions of them that using anything other than ECC ram is forbidden.
    There’s no other software or hardware checking those bits.
    Basically this idea is wrong. Once you get into ARM, MIPS and Power hardware you do have the cases of hardware always checking ECC totally independent of OS and firmware settings. So ram is ECC check right from power on all the way into the OS and EDAC being activated. Can be kinda annoying that these systems can stop dead in boot due to defective ram module because there was no EDAC module or equal loaded to receive the ECC error messages yet but it also reduced risk of starting up with corrupted memory.

    The horible part here is it less transistors to implement ECC in memory controller always on than that it is to implement ECC in memory controller with on/off switch. A1100 is using a different memory control to the AMD x86 chips.

    Gigabyte MP30-AR0 and other X-Gene chips support ECC and non-ECC modes. Hisilcon D02 and D03 will not work without ECC.

    I re read A1100 specs the bugger supports 14 Sata 3 ports in the soc chip. This is what is so annoying about the Cello board the A1100 has huge amount of prebuild in functionality that due to the Cello board being so limited its not there to be used.

    Really I would love to see someone take a A1100 and in fact place it on a board with ports for everything it can in fact do. Seams like the idea is Development boards are feature limited boards.

  187. oiaohm wrote, “A1100 non-ecc will fail why A1100 don’t support using non-ecc ram one of the issues of them.”

    The other AMD64s can do ECC or not. My own Beast is on a mobo that states, “does not support ECC” but the controller is on the AMD CPU and if I install the EDAC driver and activate it, ECC works for me. I assume if you don’t load EDAC, the A1100 won’t care one way or another. There’s no other software or hardware checking those bits. The EE standard requires AMD64 or ARM modules to work the same way.

  188. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson we are seeing a lot of different upset groups with Intel and Amd at the moment.

    http://openpowerfoundation.org/ Google for it servers are looking at the power chips mostly because they will in fact have control. We have other groups looking at the arm64 chips and we have a few cases of MIPS as well.

    Most of the problem is not x86 instruction set.
    https://people.kth.se/~maguire/DEGREE-PROJECT-REPORTS/100402-Vassilios_Ververis-with-cover.pdf
    Things don’t move quickly. In 2010 there was this study done on what Intel was doing in its ME chip. Raised some serous worries about how the AMT allowed massive remote control over the systems and how little control over AMT functionality end used could have. 6 years latter these faults have not be fully addressed.

    So converting chromebooks and using arm boards…. Are all coming from the same problem. Remember nothing about a raspberry pi closed source firmware is about giving some party outside the machine full control over it. Same is very true all the closed source drivers on Android devices.

    If something possibly gives a bit of hardware remote control administrators want absolute control over it. The problem we are having from Intel and AMD they are not giving this. While the ME just did power management that was one thing. Now that it can remote send screen and fake up keyboard and mouse that becomes a completely different problem and a different set of security risk.

    Intel saying hey we are the only ones who can know exactly what the ME will do then you wake up its a full Keyboard mouse and video solution on the board the fear is in face.

  189. oiaohm wrote, “will the Cello makers do anything non standard”

    I sure would like to see them stack up some SATA connectors or gigabit NICs or USB jacks. I’m sure the mobo has room to go deep and the chip loves those things. It’s a small mobo, hence the so-dimms, but they are not anywhere pushing the limits of what will fit on the board even with the specs (except RAM sockets). They mostly have a minimum spec, not preventing doubling up. I’m hoping the delay is to crank out an upgrade as a result of experiences by the users so far. I really hope they can eventually ship a full-sized board choked with stuff for a moderate price. What I don’t want to see is skipping a cycle while AMD takes a step on its road-map.

  190. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson A1100 non-ecc will fail why A1100 don’t support using non-ecc ram one of the issues of them. They are designed to either handle ECC memory failures and if there is no ECC bits they will declare all ram dead and not boot. So they are not board for cheap ram.

    A1100 chip stuff you save on CPU price side lose on RAM price side.

  191. oiaohm wrote, “What Robert was talking about is just dealing with windows since 2006 when Microsoft introduced WGA”.

    Actually, I wasn’t. M$ does ship products that are restricted by geographical zones so they can play one distributor against another. There have been legal challenges of folks buying cheap Wintel CDs in Asia for instance and selling them in North America for a huge profit. Copyright law has a “first sale” principle but M$ does not accept that. Courts have supported M$ claiming the first sale was in NA. WGdisA is just another brutal layer on the abuse of customers by M$. Actually they don’t consider people customers but suckers. Their customers are the OEMs and distributors who work so hard pushing product for M$. I think it’s just better for everyone to let M$ drown in its own red tape/complexity/restrictions. Be Free. Use GNU/Linux on ARM.

  192. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr Arm themselves don’t push a kernel binary blob driver model. So claiming Arm infected Android with binary blobs is wrong.

    http://malideveloper.arm.com/resources/drivers/arm-mali-midgard-gpu-user-space-drivers/
    Mali is the closest arm comes to binary blob. Yes this is open source kernel space with binary user space. Even so interfaces for mali are in fact fully documented.

    http://malideveloper.arm.com/resources/drivers/ notice how much is in fact open source.

    Now parties licensing arm cpu designs common combed them with GPUs and other parts from other parties who are not as open source as ARM themselves. Interesting enough the more restrictive the license in binaries firmware/drivers trace either back to a historic partnership with Intel or Microsoft.

    Like broadcom behind the core chip of the raspberry pi
    https://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=950071
    Yes after there deals with Microsoft their blobs to active their firmware become quite restricted and the idea of requiring activation key to use particular features. This is something odd vendors with histories of large joint dealing with Microsoft or Intel contain this activation code idea to change features in hardware. Mali you can use as much processor power as is present no magic codes required.

    So the Wintel effect has reached it way into the arm platform. Both Microsoft and Intel both claim patent rights against different SOC vendors in the arm world.

    AMD issue is nm. In features these days AMD graphics drivers are not that far off Nvidia but performance is way back. Why performance so way back large nm production. Latest Nvidia is 14nm and latest AMD cards are 28nm totally cannot compete.

    Its also funny how faster intel has been able to find developers to in fact this year spend time working on the open source driver. Wintel process is still being undone. For years Intel Windows driver had a staff of 50 odd and the Linux driver has a staff of 1. Now that staff have started sharing code base between Windows and Linux Driver at intel the result has been OpenGL support sky rocketing. At the rate intel is going open source driver will hit 4.5 opengl before 4.6 gets released and end up being aligned moving to 4.6 opengl with the windows driver.

    I would say Wintel is losing is power but its effects on markets will be still present for quite some time.

  193. kurkosdr wrote, “I hereby ask Pog. How does he feel about Intel chips powering the best Desktop Linux systems, best Android TV systems and also the most blob-free Android systems, and about Intel funding Tizen?”

    Define “best”. It obviously is not performance/$ by my estimate. Still, it’s true that most folks who want a powerful PC/server will still consider Intel relevant. However, for most folks (billions consider smartphones and TVs and set-top boxes “good enough”) that’s not relevant. I want to support the ARMed ecosystem so I am choosing what I consider a decent desktop/small server system. It removes the bottlenecks of smartphones: tiny cache, slow RAM, little RAM, slow network, slow storage, small storage… and provides MB of cache, DDR3 RAM, 32gB, gigabit/s networking and TB at hundreds of MB/s. It’s good enough for what I want and will outperform what I was using: AMD, VIA and Intel, with just ARM. I will spend money on stuff that is of value to me: SATA storage, RAM and a similar amount on CPU/mobo. I won’t be saving much money at all just getting more of what I value for the money. Schools that did that by choosing GNU/Linux over Wintel get about twice the hardware for the same budget. By pushing out Intel too, I expect to put more money into stuff I want. I don’t want a powerful CPU idling. I want the CPU I have to work hard for a living.

    I was shopping for memory this evening. 2X8gB RAM seems to be all over the place whereas there is a premium for 2x16gB and ECC has another huge premium. I may settle for 2X16gB non-ECC as a compromise. 16gB would probably be OK but I have grand kids now that are very tech-savvy. I need something to impress them beside fruit-trees.

  194. kurkosdr says:

    (emphasize “smart”) = (emphasize “sound”) obv.

  195. kurkosdr says:

    (emphasize “smart”) = (emphasize “smart”) obv.

  196. kurkosdr says:

    The Crushing of the Truth by the Wintel Monopoly?

    This is the moment I realize I have never asked Pog how he feels that the chips from the Evil Chipzilla Empire(tm) are powering the best Android TV box out there (Nexus Player) and the best chromebooks in the market… And that Ubuntu ships pre-installed only on Intel-based systems, because AMD’s linux drivers such a koala’s cock and Desktop Linux on ARM is a joke.

    Meanwhile, all ARM did for the cause of FOSS was to infect Android (and occasionally Desktop Linux) with proprietary driver blobs.

    So, I hereby ask Pog. How does he feel about Intel chips powering the best Desktop Linux systems, best Android TV systems and also the most blob-free Android systems, and about Intel funding Tizen?

    Will he finally retire the “Wintel” moniker? Which by the way became irrelevant when since… well it was never relevant anyway, it was a stupid term clueless “tech journalists” invented to sound smart (emphasize “smart”). Com’on Pog, every time you utter the word “Wintel”, some poor soul* working on Tizen or someone maintaining the drivers for Android x86 (TV or not) is getting a shiver…

    *and when I say “poor soul”, I mean both figuratively and literally ( https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened )

  197. oiaohm says:

    http://gazetteunion.com/2016/01/microsoft-warns-volume-license-customers-over-windows/
    Naturally you have some sort of vague evidence to support this embarrassingly cretinous conclusion, no matter how specious said evidence might turn out to be.

    I’m calling you out on it, you pathetic bigoted old vicarious liar.

    What vague evidence do you have?

    None whatsoever.
    Dr Loser please stop putting up no researched claims. Every year different people get hit with WGA failures caused by Microsoft screwing up somewhere ever since Microsoft introduced it. Moving around does in fact trigger it to play up as well. Basically it a buggy bit of work.

    Now lets read the Dell instructions.

    http://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/19/SLN104591/EN
    Hmm you DELL machine goes WGA failed you have to write a new firmware and hope you don’t brick it. Of course WGA fix can fail if you are attempting to active in the wrong region and you agreed to this in the license. So the WGA fix might only work if you VPN back to your home country.

    Do notice that WGA will fail if your timezone is wrong and windows attempts a WGA run. So there are just so many ways to upset WGA its not funny. So while travelling you forget to correct you windows machines time zone after you cross a timezone it attempts to update it goes WGA failed. Now you need to perform a activation and if your copy is regionally locked you are now in hell if you don’t have a VPN back to the correct region.

    I am not making the timezone bit up dell, HP and all major OEM documents it.

    What Robert was talking about is just dealing with windows since 2006 when Microsoft introduced WGA and why a lot end up looking into attempting to disable the evil bit of works it way too sensitive. Really how hard would it be to add a clock check and correction to the validation process so it stops exploding when you cross time-zones.

    Yes country GEOIP value of the IP the computer is common from is what time-zone WGA system believes it should be and if your computer does not match activation fails or become failed activation. This is a complete pain on satellite services with downlinks in multi countries with multi time-zones so the GEOIP value of the IP address is always changing.

  198. oiaohm says:

    https://github.com/vmware/pyvmomi
    And, by the way, I did so with the official library created by VMWare specifically for performing such tasks using windows powershell.
    wizard emeritus sorry to have to say this is commenting about powershell is not being current. VMWare provides a control software library these days written in python that is platform neutral that does all the thing the old powershell library offered. So there is absolutely no need to run windows to perform vmware management stuff any more. All it does by saying powershell to manage VMWare does it show you have not keep up with the times.

    http://www.amd.com/en-us/press-releases/Pages/64-bit-developer-kit-2014jul30.aspx

    Please do closely note the date. A1100 chips are absolutely not new. By the time the Cello releases their design well over 2 years old. The early developer boards are used by Ubuntu, Debian, Redhat, SUSE and others in their build and QA farms.

    Really I would hope someone would release a board matching the old 2014 developer board for the A1100 when they are in mass production.

    Wizard Emeritus so the A1100 chip is very old design. Now question is will the Cello makers do anything non standard. As long as everything that do is standard it should be a functional board. Also note the A1100 all of them support 4 slots of ram so the Cello board is crippled by design only having 2 same with the sata port count. The A1100 supports 8 Serial-ATA connectors directly yet here Cello board has decided again not to offer them all.

    The Cello is the start of AMD default fab being able to mass produce them. The 2014 versions come from a short contract to TMSC for FAB. So we have had to wait 2 years for AMD fabrication to catch up in tech. nm is such a limitation.

  199. Dr Loser says:

    Still no thoughts from Pog on the inability of TLW to exercise her TOOS license during various trips around the globe, I see.

    Well, obviously, this happened at least once, otherwise Robert wouldn’t have bothered to mention it. He is, after all, only a “vicarious liar,” which is to say a man who would never construct a lie on his own behalf, but is quite willing to peddle any number of other peoples’ lies.

    Given that it obviously happened at least once, I’m beginning to find the Pog silence on the subject rather worrying.

    Could it be a Government Conspiracy? The Crushing of the Truth by the Wintel Monopoly?

    Giant Moon-Beams bouncing off Fifi’s Shiny Depilated Legs and inadvertently trashing TLW’s “proof of license ownership?”

    This is a story that simply begs to be told, Robert.

    Oh, and another story that begs to be told is … why is TLW carrying around this polluted TOOS nonsense in the first place?

  200. Dr Loser says:

    I missed this kind of swearing… Can I have more of it? I will even start an Android permissions flamewar in TMR.

    Technically, Kurks, it ain’t swearing. I would stipulate that it isn’t even “name calling,” since every last noun and adjective was scrupulously checked for accuracy.

    But, you’re welcome.

    Signed, Yer ever lovin’ Drunken Uncle Dr Loser.

  201. kurkosdr says:

    I’m calling you out on it, you pathetic bigoted old vicarious liar.

    *sniff*

    I missed this kind of swearing… Can I have more of it? I will even start an Android permissions flamewar in TMR.

  202. Dr Loser says:

    Just to refresh your, no doubt, fading and goldfish-like memory, Robert:

    Move to Iwo Jima. Suddenly your licence is no longer valid… #$$$!@@#!

    Naturally you have some sort of vague evidence to support this embarrassingly cretinous conclusion, no matter how specious said evidence might turn out to be.

    I’m calling you out on it, you pathetic bigoted old vicarious liar.

    What vague evidence do you have?

    None whatsoever.

  203. Dr Loser says:

    Any thoughts on TLW having problems with her globe-trotting M$ license, Robert?

    No?

    How remiss of you. I await your imminent proof of such a thing with glee.

    I will even give you a free pass on the rather spurious grounds that TLW has never visited Iwo Jima …

    … Not that anybody else in the entire world, outside Iwo Jima, would care.

    Your move, you useless senile gibbering old wreck.

  204. Dr Loser says:

    Come back to us when you’ve actually splashed out $295 for the Cello, Robert.

    It’s a piece of superannuated dreck, even before it is officially released.

    You are a cheapskate.

    Prove me wrong by buying the thing and posting the details of how it made you feel forty years younger, or something.

  205. DrLoser wrote, “there’s absolutely no way you would stump up $295 to buy a new motherboard of any description whatsoever.”

    Nonsense. I’ve often spent $200 for a motherboard on which I installed a $200 AMD CPU. I spent over $100 each for the puny VIA thin clients I am about to ditch after ten years. For a server, I definitely will pay more and gladly.

  206. Dr Loser says:

    Of course I neglected to mention that the machine being evaluated was equipped with 1024gb of RAM and quad 10 core 2.2Ghz Xeon CPU’s…

    That’s just Intel being rotten nasty little monopolistic slave-driving cheats, Wiz.

    The Double Bass ARM board, available real soon at an unspecified location near you, will feature 160 cores in a single chip! Big-Little, no less! All running at less than 20 watts!

    And if you’re prepared to wait even longer, these nonexistent world-beating devices will plausibly support more than 64GB of ram on more than two slots and at a higher rating than DDR3. What’s more, you’ll get as many SATA slots as you like.

    And other goodies. But then, I know this because I am a signed-up member of the Hale-Bopp ARM Computing Religion.

    Robert is fit only to wipe the soles of our shoes after … certain purification rituals. I need not detain you with the details. Suffice to say that Pog is on the short-list for such activities.

  207. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I’m laughing. I will own the system.”

    You own your current system Robert Pogson, you don’t and never will own debian.

    At any rate, we shall see what happens, WHEN the cello board actually ships.

  208. Dr Loser says:

    And, by the way, I did so with the official library created by VMWare specifically for performing such tasks using windows powershell.

    Evil! Evil! Evil!

    Do not mention the Forbidden Ones on this blog, Wiz! All Holy Be FLOSS! To The Fires of Baal with The Opponents of FLOSS!

    VMWare is naughty in the Eyes of the Lord … The Lord being, of course, Richard Stallman.

    And some dingbat cripple in Germany, I forget his name. How’s that world-shattering German copyright case going, Robert?

    I would ask Fifi, but he seemed to claim that these things last no longer than six months, on constitutional grounds.

    Astonishingly, Fifi was telling porkies.

  209. Dr Loser says:

    That “warning” is getting old

    Possibly, Robert. Words are cheap. You are even cheaper.

    So, let’s face facts here, Pog. You are correct. There is no point in us warning you against the Cello.

    Why is there no point? Because there’s absolutely no way you would stump up $295 to buy a new motherboard of any description whatsoever.

    Having said that, your pointless defenses of the thing have been a source of continual, albeit unintended, merriment. Even Dougie thinks the idea laughable.

  210. The Wiz wrote, “I think your going to have an interesting time getting stock Debian to install and boot.”

    Ubuntu GNU/Linux ships on the SD-card. Debian is trivially different in terms of booting. I’ll use that as a bootstrap if necessary. Create a Debian file-system, tweak the loader. Boot. I would be surprised if it doesn’t work. There’s still the option to run Debian GNU/Linux in a virtual machine but I doubt that will be necessary. The kinds of things one would think might go wrong are drivers. All the devices have working drivers in the Linux kernel without fuss. e.g. the SATA card I bought is served by the ahci driver and it works for people today using ARM64. The NIC is also bog-standard stuff already in the kernel. If Ubuntu boots and I can run sshd on it, I’m laughing. I will own the system. The “warning” is very non-specific about problems. I expect they don’t want folks phoning up and asking how to modify the software or connect a monitor. I’m pretty good at solving problems. Over the years I’ve found problems with GNU/Linux that at first took days to solve now take seconds. I’ve been there and done that on many different hardwares. One of the goals of ARM64 is to make ARMed systems fairly similar to typical Intel mobos so folks don’t have many problems. I don’t expect any show-stoppers.

    PS“This is our second release and for the first time also includes support for the Enterprise Edition. Since there is still no availability for the 96Boards HuskyBoard, the first EE RPB was produced using the current enterprise development boards that are available in Linaro, such as HiSilicon D02 and AMD Overdrive (same SoC from HuskyBoard, known as Seattle). Once HuskyBoard is available, the work for making it supported by the EE RPB should be minimal.”

    They are even using the Debian installer…

  211. wizard emeritus says:

    “AMD A1100 was in the hands of kernel developers a year ago. They have not been sitting still. This board is just a bunch of connectors leading to that SoC. There are not likely any surprises at this date. ”

    As someone who has had to work his way through hardware glitches with new hardware, I can assure you that this statement is naive at best and ignorant at worst. No matter, when and if the cello board makes it out the door, it will be to put it nicely, interesting to hear of your progress.

    Personally, I think your going to have an interesting time getting stock Debian to install and boot.

    Then again, it’s all good.

  212. The Wiz wrote, “By buying a motherboard gone on record warning potential “average” users away from? Thats a rather sick joke IMHO.”

    That “warning” is getting old. Folks have been working on ARM64 GNU/Linux software for ages. It’s ready. The hardware is not at all innovative so the bugs are gone now. RedHat, your favourite GNU/Linux, has been developing/testing software on such rigs for years. Folks actually have these boards in their hands and are using them. They just have not sold to the public yet. I agree more advanced tech would be desirable but this will meet my needs and it is affordable, one of its goals.

    AMD A1100 was in the hands of kernel developers a year ago. They have not been sitting still. This board is just a bunch of connectors leading to that SoC. There are not likely any surprises at this date.

    PS This board was never intended for average users. It doesn’t have a video output, for instance. It was intended to provide an easily available ARM64 platform for developers, developers, developers. It will likely never be marketed to actual customers of RedHat and others because it cripples the capability of that SoC: no DDR4, only one gigabit/s NIC instead of dual 10 gbE and two SATA instead of 14. The SoC may well be shipped in low-end servers because it’s cheap and functional, just what I and many others want. The crippling is intentional. It allows the system to fit on a tiny board and lowers the price to individual developers and people like me who want ARM.

  213. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” I am developing my own Intel-free prototype. It’s all good. I will tell the world about ARMed desktops with GNU/Linux. ”

    By buying a motherboard gone on record warning potential “average” users away from? Thats a rather sick joke IMHO.

    Were I looking for a prototype that had a chance of working right now, I would be going with the gigabyte MP30-AR0 Server Motherboard. For one thing its actually available and has been around long enough to be usable for your project.

    https://www.xcase.co.uk/server-motherboards/gigabyte-mp30-ar0-with-appliedmicror-x-gene1r-processor.html

    495 pounds or $702.00 US plus shipping would give you an ARM board that has been around long enough as to actually work. Add memory and you would have a much better platform to start your prototype and demo on.

    if you are truly interested in making your statement and you investments are truly that good, then the extra $400.00 US would be money well spent…

    But of course we know that you are too enamored of saving money no matter what, so you will wait for the cheaper cello board to be produced and then plunk down your $295 Plus approximately $300 that you will need spend to get to the 32Gb of RAM that you want on that board.

    As You say, Its all good.

  214. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “You guys were implying that RAM would be a problem with my code”

    I implied no such thing, Robert Pogson. You were the one who decided to show your bash prowess such as it is in apparent response to my describing how I set up a stress test for new hardware. The fact that you can automate KVM from a machine that it is already on via bash (or even remotely via ssh) is irrelevant to the reality that I did not need to use a linux host to do something complicated with linux.

    And, by the way, I did so with the official library created by VMWare specifically for performing such tasks using windows powershell.

    As far as remote control of a linux host via ssh, I did that as well using another library for extending openssh primitives to powershell, one that the university paid for – it was money well spent.

  215. Dr Loser wrote, “A single stupid line of Bash doesn’t really cut the mustard, does it?”

    Sure it does. At my last place, a single line of BASH code would update every machine in the place simultaneously. I had a local cache of APT packages on a nice server with four SCSI drives in RAID 1. Snappy. You guys were implying that RAM would be a problem with my code but it’s easy to make KVM a command issued over OpenSSH, so instead of on one server the 1000 instances might run on 24 or any number of servers. It’s a very simple and flexible system I used.

  216. Dr Loser wrote, “even $295 is too rich for your taste.”

    I expect the bottom line will be much higher than that. I spent $4K on a tiller I will only use a few times a year and you think $295 is too much to pay for something that will satisfy my needs all day long and perhaps for a decade? Pennies a day… That’s a trivial sum if the yield of my pension goes as planned. Again, if I bought Intel, I might be better off in performance but I’m getting a decent motherboard and processor for ~$300. Lots of folks spend that much on the processor alone. Even if the price is excessive, I am developing my own Intel-free prototype. It’s all good. I will tell the world about ARMed desktops with GNU/Linux. I’ve taken care that the network and storage will be seriously upgraded. Even a reduction in CPU-power may be offset by less waiting. I would not be surprised to see a minute or two come off the kernel build-time, because of better storage, RAM, and a simpler/smaller set of drivers in this environment. We shall see. That’s the point of the exercise. It’s reasonable and worth trying.

  217. oiaohm says:

    2) These beasts are built to last. I have never once heard of somebody buying a Massey Ferguson or a John Deere and having to guess what’s in a parts manual in order to spend 100+ hours getting it to work.
    Come to Australia Dr Loser. You get John Deere tractors out of China and they also come shipped as a box of parts sometimes less neat than what Robert got.

    3) Maintenance is trivial. And spare parts are readily available.
    Not always so when its a John Deere question can what factory did it come out of.

    Massey Ferguson have a solid define make and model with no variation between factories. John Deere same make and model different factory can require different parts. Can turn out a China made walk behind tracker is simpler to get parts than buying a random second hand John Deere. You don’t have case of one factory version being imperial threads and another factory being metric as you get from John Deere with it vaguely documented in manual what one is what. Worst is two completely different size bolt sets because one factory had to use thicker/thinner bolts because they could only get lower tensile strength at the time of course you find this out after you have ordered the bolt pack from John Deere and have to send it back and get the correct one.

    With a John Deere you have to ask why it second hand. New with clear information on where it was made is ok.

    Turns out, it’s 160MB per instance. Actually, a bit lower because of virtualization overheads and management and such.
    That figure can in fact work and its all due to Kernel Same Page matching something that Xen, KVM and ESXi all use.

    100 linux instances spun up that are identical can use less than 32 megs unique ram each due to the magic effects of duplication and that is allowing for virtual machine memory overhead in kvm, xen or ESXi. Now if you are not wanting to use closed identical images you have an issue. Dr Loser you don’t know this topic and should have stayed out of it.

    160 Meg in fact gives you about 128 ram to play with for application that is a bit tight but not 100 percent unworkable. Dr Loser so what Robert proposed is workable at 16G for light stuff. The effects of de-duplicating ram blocks between vm images on number of virtual machines that fit is massive. Yes the de-duplication is why you attempt to run same with same in hyper-visor setups other than hyper-v that lacks the feature. 160 Meg on hyper-v you are stuffed but any other major hyper-visor it might work and will work as long as a set of conditions are met.

  218. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “In fact, and I am obviously a genius for doing this, I have just calculated the exact amount of RAM required per each of 100 instances spun up, assuming available RAM at 16GB.”

    Of course I neglected to mention that the machine being evaluated was equipped with 1024gb of RAM and quad 10 core 2.2Ghz Xeon CPU’s… so actually I could specify a random allocation of vRAM between 2Gb and 8Gb with zero gb Reserve and still not blow out the RAM.

    Of course as soon as I started to tell the individual VM’s to run a task, interesting things would happen…

    But I digress.

  219. Dr Loser says:

    In fact, and I am obviously a genius for doing this, I have just calculated the exact amount of RAM required per each of 100 instances spun up, assuming available RAM at 16GB.

    Turns out, it’s 160MB per instance. Actually, a bit lower because of virtualization overheads and management and such.

    Lovely little one-liner script, O Senile Master Of The Manitoban Prairies … but unfortunately, none of those virtualized instances are going to be able to do much with 160MB of RAM.

    Still, a good opportunity for you to spin up 100 builds of the latest point release of the Linux Kernel, I suppose.

    Veeeeery slowly.

    I can’t wait for your enthusiastic reports on quite how wonderful the Cello motherboard is. Except that I will never see them. Because even $295 is too rich for your taste.

  220. Dr Loser says:

    Of course, one needs a lot of RAM to do that, but it does work.

    Rather more RAM than you will find on your soon-to-be-putrid Cello, I think, Robert. Given that you have yet to deny my theory that you are too cheap to buy more than 8MB for each of the two available slots.

    A single stupid line of Bash doesn’t really cut the mustard, does it?

    Still, keep this ignorance up, Pog. You have no idea how terrifically amusing the rest of us find it.

  221. Dr Loser says:

    I would suggest at this point that you might want to quit while you are ahead…

    Doesn’t seem to have stopped Robert for at least the last ten years. Which is probably the last time he even broke even.

    Which reminds me, Robert, how’s the baby-steps thing looking forward to the future with systemd going?

    I assume, as an experienced System Admin, you have at least spun up a Virtual Machine of some sort to keep tabs on this emergent, soon to be dominant, Linux technology?

    Never let yourself be behind the curve. A maxim that applies to senile old fools, just as much as it applies to anybody else who cares about the technology they use, I believe.

  222. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Of course, one needs a lot of RAM to do that, but it does work.”

    Bravo Robert Pogson, you can actually program in shell script!

    Of course the succesful execution of the above script assumes that you have done your prep work correctly and have at hand a VM image that can boot , request a unique IP address,confgure itself with a unique FDQN, and come up ready for use.

    Otherwise as shell scripts go its not worth much.

    Not to mention that fact that your shell script doesn’t even begin to do what my powershell script was REQUIRED to do.

    But, then again your IT tasks never even approached the level of complexity of what I I was required to do in my job.

    I would suggest at this point that you might want to quit while you are ahead…

  223. Dr Loser says:

    My grandfather was all with Massey Ferguson , I on the other hand prefer John-Deere.

    I agree with Dougie on this one. A second hand John Deere would have worked just as well. I guess it depends what is available on the second hand market in Manitoba.

    The three big things about either choice are:
    1) These beasts are proper tractors, not make-believe tractorettes.
    2) These beasts are built to last. I have never once heard of somebody buying a Massey Ferguson or a John Deere and having to guess what’s in a parts manual in order to spend 100+ hours getting it to work.
    3) Maintenance is trivial. And spare parts are readily available.

    Still, like so much of what you do, Robert, it’s only a “me against the world” sort of hobby.

  224. Dr Loser says:

    I married a woman born and raised in the Philippines. She’s a globe-trotter. About once a year she uses her “points” to fly somewhere near or far. She’s been around the world a couple of times: stopped in UK, Germany, China, Japan, Phil., Australia, USA lower 48, of course, even Hawaii. I love to stay at home, but she’s not the only one I know who loves to travel and they often take a smartphones and a notebook or tablet PC. So, TOOS is problematic.

    I accept the first part of your evidence, Robert. Clearly you do know someone who might have been affected by this problem you theorize. And you know that person very well indeed.

    Now for the second part of your evidence.

    When has your wife ever experienced this problem you theorize?

    May I humbly predict that your answer, should you get around to giving one, will be never?

  225. The Wiz wrote, “start up 100 virtual Red Hat Enterprise Linux instance as part of a evaluation test”

    for f in `seq 1000 -1 1`;do echo starting instance $f;kvm …$f…&done

    Of course, one needs a lot of RAM to do that, but it does work.

  226. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “One of my favourite installations of GNU/Linux was “fixing” the problem of WGdisA stopping Vista from running in a remote northern community. ”

    One of my favorite experiences was using the tools on my windows 7 desktop to create kickstart configure and start up 100 virtual Red Hat Enterprise Linux instance as part of a evaluation test that I had to run of how a particular piece of hardware would handle a VMWare VSphere load. It was particularly fun to watch the look on one of the local Linux sysadmins as I did so.

    You see Robert Pogson, I can come up with old memories as well, and unlike youself, I can even dig up the Powershell code that allowed me to do it.

  227. The Wiz wrote, “we had technicians bringing wintel portables all over the world without issue.”

    Chuckle. One of my favourite installations of GNU/Linux was “fixing” the problem of WGdisA stopping Vista from running in a remote northern community. No phone line. No Internet connection. No operation. Folks bought a brand new Vista machine in Winnipeg ($400 air ticket) and it refused to run 30 days later. They were using it as a glorified CD and gaming PC. It ran like a top with GNU/Linux.

  228. oiaohm says:

    No Robert Pogson, it is not. When I was working we had technicians bringing wintel portables all over the world without issue.
    Wizard Emeritus I think you better take a closer look at the configuration. WSUS updating by VPN I guess so avoiding Microsoft false flagging something as pirated.

    There are quite a few documented cases of Microsoft system false positive on those who travel between countries a lot. This has also changed with Windows 10 officially disabling the means to turn Windows update off that was a useful prevent at times to Windows genuine advantage stupidity. Sorry Wizard Emeritus must have been 10 years since you were dealing with people travelling all over the world with Microsoft products.

    Mind you Microsoft Windows Genuine advantage is less glitch that it use to be https://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2006/jul/14/lockedoutofagenuinecopyo
    Yes 2006 glitches were down right horible did not even need the computer travel to stuff up. Its still glitches either travelling or using a sat service were you are changing your exit ip geolocation can upset Windows genuine advantage. False positives on Windows genuine advantage started 2006 and they still have not gone away. Company avoidance method to this problem is WSUS and VPN. Avoidance method for home user pray or don’t travel or not depend on Windows.

  229. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” I love to stay at home, but she’s not the only one I know who loves to travel and they often take a smartphones and a notebook or tablet PC. So, TOOS is problematic”

    No Robert Pogson, it is not. When I was working we had technicians bringing wintel portables all over the world without issue.

  230. Dr Loser wrote, “Not only does it not affect anybody you know.”

    I married a woman born and raised in the Philippines. She’s a globe-trotter. About once a year she uses her “points” to fly somewhere near or far. She’s been around the world a couple of times: stopped in UK, Germany, China, Japan, Phil., Australia, USA lower 48, of course, even Hawaii. I love to stay at home, but she’s not the only one I know who loves to travel and they often take a smartphones and a notebook or tablet PC. So, TOOS is problematic.

  231. DrLoser wrote, “I’d have bought a second hand Massey Ferguson”.

    I did consider such purchases. When I was a boy, my father ran a Case tractor built in 1947. Every now and then that same model is available on the collectibles market. However, that is a bit large for my yard. Even my Chinese tractor is a bit large for my yard, now that TLW has dotted the landscape with boulders (don’t ask why), berms, patios, circular driveways, trees and the like. Then, I have a bunch of my trees… so soon a smaller tiller would be useful. I may just move the engine over to the alternator and park it for a once-a-year grind on some strips.

  232. Dr Loser wrote, “I am totes convinced that you are lying and that you are never in a million years going to buy this awful piece of dreck.”

    Since it is not yet offered for sale, that’s a problem. I will start buying associated equipment: gigabit/s switch, PCI-e 2x SATA 3 quad card, new audio equipment, a couple of new mice and possibly some new hard drives this week. We have a decent stock of 512MB and 1TB a few years old so we may delay that while I shop for the best deal but I may make the first purchases for the new regime tomorrow. I have several items in my shopping carts already.

    I intend to test the new drives and SATA card extensively. I can do that from Beast so lack of the Cello does not delay some serious testing and creation of a disc-image (at least for data…) and so forth. I can experiment with the throughput of the new card and drives before I choose the RAID arrangement. Stay tuned.

  233. oiaohm says:

    https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn/96Boards/Cello

    Dr Loser that basic bug notice does worry a little. Something to remember TMSC version of the AMD Seattle chip is in the Debian build farm so for the cpu on the Cello all the userspace applications are ready to-go. As noted on the debian site that the Cello platform drivers are not mainline yet.

    And whilst we are on the subject of you being a dishonest senile old fraud, Robert … what about that post you made on the “naughtiness” of M$ supposedly restricting their Visual Studio customers to the 32-bit version?
    That is not a lie Dr Loser. On windows there is no 64 bit version of Visual Studio GUI. If you install 64 bit version of visual studio you get 64 bit compliers and command line tools and 32 bit gui.

    https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/01/VS-64-bit written about here. Basically Dr Loser you have your head in sand attacking stuff with no research to back your idiot ass up again. So you just access Robert of being dishonest over something that is absolute fact.

    There are stack of excuses. Until you look across at Linux and see something. 1 on Linux with visual code they do in fact make a 64 bit version and it shows none of the performance issues Microsoft developers talk about as why Visual studio for windows is stuck at 32 bit.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
    Next is this. There is a halfway position between 32 bit and 64 bit that Microsoft has never bothered implementing.

    If your software is restricted for use in a particular geographic region, then you may activate the software only in that region.

    This issue here bothers us in Australia using satellite internet solutions at time. Why your end might be in Australia but the link at the other end might be Japan or Indonesia so you have those countries IP addresses.

    Uh-huh. And if your software is not so restricted, then you may activate it — incidentally, “activation” does not preclude “use in another region,” but your minimal command over the English language appears to be fading out almost as fast as your wretched old gray cells — wherever you wish to do so.
    Not 100 percent true Dr Loser the truth suxs.

    When you install windows updates from time to time will trigger the system to rerun activation. If you happen to be running on the wrong countries IP address at the time windows genuine advantage may come up so you now have a timer ticking to get that machine back to the right countries IP address and rerun the activation before you start seeing features crippled.

    So you are not preluded form using the device in another country but if you update you might be hit by Windows Genuine Advantage so cutting off your device updating functionality until you VPN to correct IP address or return to the correct country.

    http://www.ferrari-tractors.com/products/walking.htm
    Dr Loser walk behind tractors have their advantages Massey Ferguson don’t make one. Yes I know this is strange the top brand in walk behind tractors is a sub company of a sports car. So quoting Massey Ferguson over a walk behind tractor is not knowing your facts. Walk behind tractors are used to do a lot of tasks standard tractors cannot due to the size difference and turning circle(yes 4 wheels at times are a disadvantage) . Walk behind tractors competitor is not larger tractors. Really for specs Robert got a good deal on that walk behind.

    Oh, and it’s an actual tractor. Not some useless piece of Chinese garbage.
    Ferrari Tractors are made in China. So some useless piece of Chinese garbage shows you have no clue. The best walk behind tractors come out of China in fact the top 200 come out of China. So fairly much any walk behind tractor that is not made in China is trash. Robert had bought some of the USA made imitations of a walk behind tractor and had been shearing bolts and other horible things.

    About the best in USA made imitation is the John Deere 518R Walk Behind Tiller no PDO shaft smaller wheels so worse weight disruption on ground and way less power. Fairly much featureless junk. This is the problem one of the worst China made walk behind tractors beats the all the USA made offering in the same class same and in fact you have to allow broader for even the USA to have a offering. 2 wheel tractor class is poorly supported in lot of places. So claiming Robert did the wrong thing here Dr Loser is you being a idiot.

  234. dougman says:

    “BTW, I’d have bought a second hand Massey Ferguson if I were you.”

    My grandfather was all with Massey Ferguson , I on the other hand prefer John-Deere.

  235. Dr Loser says:

    An update on your thoroughly stupid intention of buying the Cello, Robert:

    For buyers:

    The LeMaker Cello is focusing on the ARM server marketing especially data center and storage. Although the LeMaker Cello will installed a boot OS and some baisc software, it will still have some dev bugs that need to update the OS to solve the bugs. So the first batch LeMaker Cello will be the early-bird version for experienced developers, server companies and open source community, we do not suggest newbie or general users to buy the LeMaker Cello at the early-bird stage.

    I do not believe that you are up to solving those “basic dev bugs,” Robert. Perhaps you could post them, in your usual FLOSS-worthy way, on the relevant Bugzilla board? I’m totes convinced that a whole swathe of FLOSS developers will jump at your command.

    Alternatively, I am totes convinced that you are lying and that you are never in a million years going to buy this awful piece of dreck.

    Prove us all (including Dougie) wrong, and buy it anyway, you ancient old fraud.

  236. Dr Loser says:

    And whilst we are on the subject of you being a dishonest senile old fraud, Robert … what about that post you made on the “naughtiness” of M$ supposedly restricting their Visual Studio customers to the 32-bit version?

    That was a flat-out lie, too, wasn’t it?

  237. Dr Loser says:

    BTW, I’d have bought a second hand Massey Ferguson if I were you.

    Costs a bit more, but is a proven Beast. Also, you’d have cut down your set-up and maintenance hours by at least 90%. And also, you could rent out your services to the local farmers at, say, $10 per hour for fifty hours a year and pay the original cost off.

    Oh, and it’s an actual tractor. Not some useless piece of Chinese garbage.

  238. Dr Loser says:

    DrLoser wrote, of regional licensing … blather blather blather …

    And so what? This is actually the whiniest ever objection you have made to a M$ EULA, Robert.

    Not only does it not affect you.

    Not only does it not affect anybody you know.

    Not only does it not affect anybody you have ever heard of.

    But it doesn’t even obviously affect the inhabitants of Iwo Jima.

    Seriously, check with your doctor. You are going very senile, very fast.

    If your software is restricted for use in a particular geographic region, then you may activate the software only in that region.

    Uh-huh. And if your software is not so restricted, then you may activate it — incidentally, “activation” does not preclude “use in another region,” but your minimal command over the English language appears to be fading out almost as fast as your wretched old gray cells — wherever you wish to do so.

    Or such is my reading of this cite of yours. Naturally, you have a follow-up that will prove me wrong.

    Just as you have a secret stash of billets-doux, no doubt scented with the fine aroma of manure churned up by a cheap Chinese tractorette substitute, that will prove that some otherwise unheard-of person called “Niklaus Worth” once personally did you a favor just because he liked you.

    Or, on the other hand, you don’t, do you?

    When was the last time you stood up to a direct challenge and produced solid evidence to back it up?

    You’re getting more and more like Fifi every day. Check out the Chinese price on fishnet stockings, Robert … because you’re going to need them sooner than you think.

  239. DrLoser wrote, of regional licensing, “It’s unsubstantiated bollocks”.

    EULA from Hell: “8. Geographic and Export Restrictions. If your software is restricted for use in a particular geographic region, then you may activate the software only in that region. You must also comply with all domestic and international export laws and regulations that apply to the software, which include restrictions on destinations, end users, and end use. For further information on geographic and export restrictions, visit (aka.ms/georestrict) and (aka.ms/exporting).”

  240. Dr Loser says:

    Move to Iwo Jima. Suddenly your licence is no longer valid… #$$$!@@#!

    Since you have not purchased an M$ product in over ten years, Robert, and since — unless you have been very secretive about it — you have not moved to Iwo Jima, I’m going to call you out on this one.

    It’s unsubstantiated bollocks, as so often recently. You’re slipping, old man.

  241. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “could pay for it in full cash in hand, ” = “could not pay for it in full cash in hand, “

  242. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “That’s why I first installed GNU/Linux and I think it’s still insane/voluntary slavery to use TOOS.”

    I installed Linux as well, but found that outside of being a host for the old *nix hosted server class applications that I helped support while I was still working, linux as a desktop OS was and remains less than useless to me. And my experience making that determination is at least as long if not longer and deeper than yours Robert Pogson.

    As far as “voluntary Slavery” is concerned, if you own a house and like most people could pay for it in full cash in hand, you are also in a state of “voluntary slavery”. In fact most people are in various stages of “voluntary slavery”.

    On the other hand, some people are so much slaves of their money that they can’t tell the difference between “liking better price/Performance” and “being so cheap they squeek”

  243. comments with too many links are automatically held to filter out spam which sometimes has pages of links.

  244. dougman wrote, of TOOS running IT, “sheer craziness”.

    This is nothing new. Allowing TOOS to demand re-re-reboots, hosting malware, slowing down, forcing upgrades/relicensing, etc. is all insane. That’s why I first installed GNU/Linux and I think it’s still insane/voluntary slavery to use TOOS.

  245. dougman says:

    “Windows 10 stuffing your computer with unwanted apps. ”

    Sounds like like malware to me. Oh wait, Windows 10 IS malware.

    http://winaero.com/blog/fix-windows-10-installs-apps-like-candy-crush-soda-saga-automatically/

    Just wait till Windows 10 uninstall your own apps, oh wait it’s already done that too!

    http://www.howtogeek.com/243581/windows-10-may-delete-your-programs-without-asking/

    “Many people claim it removed hardware drivers like Intel Rapid Storage Technology and AMD Catalyst Control Center, too. In some cases, people even reported that it removed PDF viewers and antivirus programs”

    LOL…sheer craziness!

  246. oiaohm says:

    http://www.piotrbania.com/all/articles/ewdd.pdf
    kurkosdr have you read this yet this is an attack against closed source drivers.

    Now here is the thing that ruins the complete argument about binary drivers.
    http://projectudi.sourceforge.net/
    This was in fact supported by Linux kernels 2.2 to 2.4.

    Issue is you could count the number of drivers in UDI format on one hand worse all those had native in Linux kernel drivers so UDI was dropped out the Linux kernel at 2.6.0 because there was no point to it other than giving attack surface area what was the 17 December 2003.

    You do realise that the “linux” part of GNU/Linux has an unstable ABI for proprietary drivers BY DESIGN?
    Linux kernel never defined a stable binary driver interface but it never need to because UDI defined the specification for stable binary drivers and no one was making driver. Is the UDI specification still sitting there yes there is. Could UDI be returned to the Linux kernel if drivers appeared yes it could would have a up hill battle on security grounds.

    Now UDI drivers in 2002 found to be exploitable the same way windows drivers were in the latter paper documented above. The no we don’t need binary drivers rant is partly based on a security report and also companies like nvidia and ati said they would never used UDI because maintaining compatibility was going to cause some overhead compared to using newer and performance improved internal kernel API stuff.

    Kurkosdr pointing to vmware over driver issues will get you laugh at for being a idiot. Vmware Installer does not register its drivers with Dynamic Kernel Module Support (DKMS) so every time you update kernel you got to rerun installer or really stupid manually install the DKMS bit and not suffer from the problem
    https://github.com/vmware/dkms_module
    Yes VMWare makes the DKMS bit then does not have their installer in fact install it. VMWare issue is DOH of DOH. VMWare on Linux is exactly like quickbooks PDF printer on Windows do a update it snaps but magically fixes itself after you rerun installer. So really your VMWare issue you have dug out kurkosdr is a closed source software company on Linux not making a correctly functional installer. In fact virtualbox from orcale has demoed recently its possible to make it work without using DKMS at all and still be able to install correct driver when required. VMWare is basically a broken product and broken products exist on Windows just as much as Linux. Something to be very careful to avoid when making a point.

    Nvidia and AMD/ATI both demo making kernel mode drivers for Linux using DKMS that are dependable across kernel upgrades is more than possible. DKMS does include means to inform user if a kernel update has resulted in a driver they want not being build-able as well so user is able to sit on older kernel driver for longer.

    DKMS comes from dell in 2003 aligned with the official end of UDI support in the Linux kernel. So UDI binary drivers was removed and DKMS was it replacement with each driver being script built every time kernel updated allowing header file security fixes to be applied to the old source base.

    Most people over look this time line so until 17 December 2003 Linux support straight up binary drivers using UDI. DKMS was release middle of 2003 this is the change over to binary blob with wrapper. The anti stable ABI rant was 2002 but the means for mostly closed source drivers was never removed for any release.

    Reality here system has been in place for over 10 years and VMWare still cannot get it right.

    Microsoft has been keeping old versions of Windows alive for as long as possible and releases security patches for them, for half a decade or so. Anyone with Vista or above is getting security patches, and even runs most Windows Desktop apps. So, how exactly is that user “forced to upgrade”, compared to other OSes?
    Sitting on broken drivers. A fact you keep on over looking. So old versions of windows are only partly security patched not fully.

    Items like current VLC can be pulled back on to Ubuntu 12.04 and before using 0install, chroot and other solutions. Ubuntu snappy and freedesktop flatpak will make this stuff more uniform and standard. Reality when you install a new program on old windows the new program normally bundles most of it runtime this is exactly what snappy and flatpak copy.

    PS: Also, Android forces HARDWARE upgrades with even Nexus devices getting security patches for a measly 36 months, but I ‘ll save this for another rant…
    Nexus and HTC and other unlock-able devices you can go out to third party roms and keep software on them updated for a very long time. Even so Nexus devices we don’t know where security patching ends on those as there is no Nexus device not getting security patches.

    In fact the Nexus getting security patches for measly 36 months is wrong. Nexus One is Android 2.3.7 but it current image contains all security patches from google done 3 months ago and that was a device released in 2010. Nexus devices come with a 36 months support to be at the most modern Android version for the 36 months. Security patching for Nexus images we don’t know how long that is thinking the oldest along with every other Nexus device is still getting security patches straight from google. Of course being stuck with only android 2.3.7 with a Nexus One kinda limits the applications you can run so does it very old specs. Basically there is a difference between current android version and being security patched when it applies to Nexus devices. Lot of other vendors if you cannot get current version its also not security patched but this is not the direct google supported stuff.

  247. kurkosdr says:

    (retrying without the links)

    BTW, since I have no allegiance to any listed company (unlike some people here who will become allies with any company as long as they throw a bone to FOSS), here is a REAL unintended consequence of using Windows. Quoting from a post I made in penguinday:

    So, this happened yesterday:

    http://i.imgur.com/UyLQ821.png

    Since I do not remember installing anything from the App Store yesterday, for a moment I was scared, fearing it was some kind of malware masquerading as Candy Crush Saga.

    Then I did a google search for the following: “windows installed candy crush saga without asking”, just in case, before I go into panic mode and start downloading MalwareBytes.

    PHEEWW!! It’s just Windows 10 stuffing your computer with unwanted apps. Everything normal (by Windows 10 standards at least).

    Microsoft is run by a lunatic, folks. A billion dollar company has stooped to a level of fraudulent Chinese-operated app stores (before Google purged most of them from the Play Store), aka installing IAP-heavy apps into user’s systems without consent. In fact, their Windows 10 business tactics so far resemble the business practices of Kazaa, RealPlayer and fraudulent app stores *combined*. This company, MS, probably runs your business’s IT, or your B2B partner’s IT. Feeling lucky?

    BTW, now that the last line of WTF has been crossed by MS (phoning home and installing unwanted-ware), what’s the next step? Anything is up for grabs.

    Will they microprint “candy crush saga rocks” on the slides you print with PowerPoint? Secretly stuff your Music folder with Candy Crush saga jingles? What else?

    And Desktop Linux still sucks.

    Maybe that’s why Tim Cook announced a revamp of macOS. The man is expecting an increase in demand obv.

  248. kurkosdr says:

    (why are my comments awaiting moderation? I even removed the s— word)

  249. kurkosdr says:

    BTW, since I have no allegiance to any listed company (unlike some people here who will become allies with any company as long as they throw a bone to FOSS), here is a REAL unintended consequence of using Windows. Quoting from a post I made in penguinday:

    So, this happened yesterday:

    http://i.imgur.com/UyLQ821.png

    Since I do not remember installing anything from the App Store yesterday, for a moment I was scared, fearing it was some kind of malware masquerading as Candy Crush Saga.

    Then I did a google search for the following: “windows installed candy crush saga without asking”, just in case, before I go into panic mode and start downloading MalwareBytes. Let’s have a look:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3pjfjx/candy_crush_saga_just_installed_itself_to_my_pc/
    http://winaero.com/blog/fix-windows-10-installs-apps-like-candy-crush-soda-saga-automatically/
    http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-windows_store/candy-crush-automatically-installed/a8cd1e2b-bcfc-48f2-b6fd-9b38e74443fd

    PHEEWW!! It’s just Windows 10 stuffing your computer with unwanted apps. Everything normal (by Windows 10 standards at least).

  250. kurkosdr wrote a bunch of stuff and, “Linux has an unstable ABI for proprietary drivers BY DESIGN?”

    There are no “propietary” drivers in Linux. Those are all GPLv2. If someone wants to write a driver, the parts that interface with Linux have to be GPLv2 as well. Nvidia, for instance has a non-free driver but it is not part of Linux. It’s built/edited/patched just in time with the Linux headers that come with the kernel. Nvidia’s driver still works whether it’s Linux 2.6 or 4.4. Nvidia gives individual users permission to do that but distros can’t distribute it. That’s their problem and I don’t think I will ever buy another GPU from Nvidia unless it’s in a Tegra SoC. They’ve become more Linux-friendly lately because of ARMed stuff. Perhaps they will finally see the light and make the driver FLOSS. It’s silly not to do that. They are just fooling themselves if they think competitors cannot deconstruct their chips and drivers. Why inflict that angst on users?

  251. dougman says:

    “You have no idea how much time/money I’ve spent over the years controlling weeds. That tractor ripped the weeds a good one. They are just now recovering, a year later. My main regret is that it’s too powerful… 12HP would have been just fine.”

    Weed fabric, and a BCS tiller would be a lovely combination.

  252. kurkosdr says:

    That’s not the case with GNU/Linux.
    You do realise that the “linux” part of GNU/Linux has an unstable ABI for proprietary drivers BY DESIGN? Ask Linus… Of course, if you are a digital hippie and only have the most generic hardware, you will probably OK.

    And then there is this: http://www.osnews.com/permalink?559702 (downvoted to oblivion of course, lest any flaws of the Holy GNU and Saint Tux are exposed). The reply by some FOSSie is -naturally- hilarious ( http://www.osnews.com/permalink?559704 ). Basically, “it’s your fault for wanting high-value proprietary software that comes from outside the sacred repos!!111”

    The Jonses buy a new PC with a full stack of new software. Suddenly you can’t use their e-mail attachments…
    Huh?, care to elaborate?

    —–

    Stuff 3-5 are endless talk about the EULA (which BTW many businesses prefer to tolerate instead of Desktop Linux, Munich included)

  253. The Wiz wrote, “a cheap chinese tractor that required over 100+ hours to get it working”.

    You have no idea how much time/money I’ve spent over the years controlling weeds. That tractor ripped the weeds a good one. They are just now recovering, a year later. My main regret is that it’s too powerful… 12HP would have been just fine.

  254. kurkosdr wrote, “how exactly is that user “forced to upgrade”, compared to other OSes?”

    Let me count the ways…

    1. Let’s see. Buy a new PC and stuff won’t run on it. You need a new OS or at least Wintel thinks you need a new OS. That’s not the case with GNU/Linux. I can change kernels/drivers if necessary and leave the whole rest of the stack alone. I’ve often moved a hard drive of GNU/Linux on an old machine and plugged it into a new machine and been up instantly. TOOS will always go through contortions. I’ve seen XP messed up merely by swapping PS/2 wheel mice… (students loved that)
    2. The Jonses buy a new PC with a full stack of new software. Suddenly you can’t use their e-mail attachments…
    3. Then there’s the EULA which may state that it can only be used with the PC on which it was provided to you (OEM version). New PC, purchase new OS…
    4. Move to Iwo Jima. Suddenly your licence is no longer valid… #$$$!@@#!
    5. The audit… “You owe us $947334.56, but you can make it right by buying new licences for everything… That will be $437443.98, please. BTW, we don’t sell that version any longer so you need to buy all new hardware to run the new stuff (Intel loves that).”

    I’m sure M$’s salesmen have 47 other perfectly good levers and fulcrums but these are by far the most frequently encountered.

  255. kurkosdr says:

    (of course, I ‘ve never have seen you whining that Google “pushes” the latest Marshmallow or whatever on users, or that Ubuntu pushes the latest Warting Warthog on users)

  256. kurkosdr says:

    I guess that’s why everyone hates M$ who has pushed XP, Vista, “7”, “8” and now “10” on them for utterly no benefit and ever more complexity/vulnerability.

    It’s post like these that keep me going. It’s like seeing the “jackass” show. You shouldn’t keep watching, but you do.

    Anywho, here is the reply:

    Microsoft has been keeping old versions of Windows alive for as long as possible and releases security patches for them, for half a decade or so. Anyone with Vista or above is getting security patches, and even runs most Windows Desktop apps. So, how exactly is that user “forced to upgrade”, compared to other OSes?

    Even Windows 7 and 8.1 receive all their security patches, despite Redmond’s desire that those users upgrade to 10.

    Meanwhile at Linuxland, LTSes are supported for much shorter time periods, and after that is an ABI-breaking (and potentially API-breaking upgrade). And good luck getting most apps to run on a 4-5 year old LTS. In fact there was this time VLC wouldn’t even run on the *current* LTS ( http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/02/install-latest-vlc-release-ubuntu-12-04 _ )

    Forced to upgrade, Desktop Linux users are…

    PS: Also, Android forces HARDWARE upgrades with even Nexus devices getting security patches for a measly 36 months, but I ‘ll save this for another rant…

  257. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I guess that’s why everyone hates M$ who has pushed XP, Vista, “7”, “8” and now “10” on them for utterly no benefit and ever more complexity/vulnerability.”

    Hearing the phrase “Utterly no benefit” from someone who purchased a cheap chinese tractor that required over 100+ hours to get it working and who knows how many hours t keep going is simply not credible.

  258. Ivan says:

    Thankfully ransomware doesn’t work on linux because of the broken PRNG. Good job.

  259. DrLoser wrote, “The very last thing that a Senior Citizen wants to fart around with is a new operating system.”

    I guess that’s why everyone hates M$ who has pushed XP, Vista, “7”, “8” and now “10” on them for utterly no benefit and ever more complexity/vulnerability.

  260. kurkosdr says:

    You can quote a source of your own, obviously, but this one suggests that the stuff is dangerously volatile.

    And a slightly longer term view suggests that it spiked in 2014 at $1000, fell back to $250, and has only just recently gone on a surge.

    I’m not saying it’s a bad investment. I’m just saying that it’s a very risky one.

    Over at ZeroHedge, I enjoyed reading their bragging about ZeroHedge “predicting” the rise of Bitcoin, while in reality ZeroHedge has been predicting rises for bitcoin and gold since the site came online (and falls for the dollar and equities), no matter what actually happens.

    Much like everytime MSFT stock makes a slight dip, freetards jump in joy shouting “we predicted that!!11 You should have divested from MSFT stock when you had the time”

    —–

    It’s almost as funny as loons claiming that stores “accept payment” in Bitcoin. In reality, they accept payment in US Dollars or Euros, they just convert your Bitcoins into US dollars. That’s why the USD prices stays about the same while the price in Bitcoin fluctuates. Which means your purchasing power fluctuates. But since Bitcoin is used mostly by “laissez faire” loons, they pretend to not care.

  261. Dr Loser says:

    Of course, you could reasonably compare BitCoin to, say, Gold. Or even Brent Crude.

    A more realistic comp for MSFT is RHAT. Oh dear. Quite the volatile stock, and not noticeably a better investment than MSFT.

    Oh, and that dividend on offer from RHAT? Not disclosed, apparently.

    Fare thee well!

  262. Dr Loser says:

    I ask you, MSFT share vs Bitcoin, which has become more valuable over the past few years?

    I was expecting you to bring BitCoin up, Dog-Brain. Not least because your permanently extended “sabbatical” seems to depend upon it.

    You can quote a source of your own, obviously, but this one suggests that the stuff is dangerously volatile.

    And a slightly longer term view suggests that it spiked in 2014 at $1000, fell back to $250, and has only just recently gone on a surge.

    I’m not saying it’s a bad investment. I’m just saying that it’s a very risky one.

    Whereas MSFT just bumbles along like the utility stock it is, round about $50 despite dire predictions from know-nothings like you and Pog, and pays out a reliable 3% or so dividend every year.

  263. Dr Loser says:

    As you know, Dog-Brain, I am both neutral on any given useful technology and also a man who aims to serve, instruct, and amuse those of my fellow human beings who regrettably lack two brain cells to bang together.

    And it is in that spirit that I, yes I, not Pog, not you, not Fifi, bring the news that M$ has just bought LinkedIn at the eye-watering price of $26 billion. In cash.

    I think, for once, we can all agree on this. Nadella has gone nuts. And you all thought that Ballmer didn’t know what he was doing.

  264. dougman says:

    “The MSFT stock price is still happily bouncing around the $50 mark”

    As if that means anything, did you forget about Bernie Madoff? Stock prices are not indicative of future results.

    “you post your ridiculously irrelevant links.”

    Aye, your brain must be fried. What was listed was VERY relevant to M$ and the misery it suffers.

    I ask you, MSFT share vs Bitcoin, which has become more valuable over the past few years?

    Pony up!

  265. Dr Loser says:

    So then, Robert. Where’s Waldo? Or, more precisely who is Niklaus Worth?

    You claimed to have a deeply meaningful and very personal relationship with whoever this guy is, so I presume you can explain all.

    Or not.

  266. Dr Loser says:

    The MSFT stock price is still happily bouncing around the $50 mark, Dog-Brain. It must be really painful to confront that reality whilst you post your ridiculously irrelevant links.

  267. Dr Loser says:

    I’m retired as are millions of others. We are members of the general populace and we enjoy GNU/Linux and IT that works for us.

    You really do love this unsubstantiated market segmentation, don’t you, Pog? Yet again, a prima facie case of the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.
    1) I am [insert membership of some sort of group here]
    2) I like [insert favorite part of a durian fruit … whoops, I mean Debian Distro]
    3) Therefore all [group] like [durian fruit]
    Not only can you not prove this assertion. It is, prima facie, absurd.

    Outside the corporate world, just about the single section of humanity least likely to switch from the M$ desktop to the Linux desktop is people of your own age. The very last thing that a Senior Citizen wants to fart around with is a new operating system.

    You, Robert, are a remarkable example of the Wrinkly L33t. If I were you, I would glory in that, and accept that it doesn’t really apply to other wrinklies.

  268. dougman says:

    “Who cares!”

    Obviously, you do, you close-sourced loving software user. You spend countless hours banging out your point-of-view, while people like me point out your fallacies and correct your misdirection’s.

    Bu who cares right?

    Seriously, look at M$ mobile.

    http://www.informationweek.com/software/microsofts-mobile-fail-what-happens-now/a/d-id/1325697

    FAILURE!…but eh, who cares. Android is the real winner here. You know that OTHER Linux that you keep saying isn’t going anywhere.

    Then you have this deal with LinkedIn for $26 billion.

    http://venturebeat.com/2016/06/13/5-reasons-microsofts-26b-linkedin-deal-will-be-a-catastrophic-failure/

    “Microsoft’s track record: Let’s put aside the fact that this is almost four times as much as the company paid for its dismal Nokia deal (which failed may I remind you) Microsoft bought Yammer in 2012 for $1.2 billion and Skype before that for $8.5 billion. How many enterprise-type communication platforms does one company need? If I’m a consumer, or a business, it seems tough to imagine how this jumble fits together into a cohesive whole.”

    LOL, let me point out the obvious. There isn’t any cohesion to any of these acquisitions, M$ is buying users. ~433M users that it can pull into its failing mess.

    FAILURE!….M$ paid around $50/head, and they hope to get 3-4 times much in return from them.

    M$ and education…FAILURE!… Chromebooks (another form of Linux) is owning the market, pushing everyone out.

    To continue, you have macros in Office, M$ is working on a Teamviewer competitor, Personal computer sales are dropping (tablets and Chromebooks are through the roof).

    Doesn’t look like M$ is very strong these days is it?

  269. kurkosdr wrote, “NOT the experiences (or the needs) of the general populace, unless you manage to PROVE they are.”

    I’m retired as are millions of others. We are members of the general populace and we enjoy GNU/Linux and IT that works for us.

  270. kurkosdr says:

    GNU/Linux has been able to replace TOOS for more than 15 years by my experience.

    Muh experiences… muh experiences… did I ever mention muh experiences?

    For the thousandth time Pog, your experiences, basically your need for a browser, media player, basic word editor and maybe a Pascal compiler for those school PCs you infamously managed are NOT the experiences (or the needs) of the general populace, unless you manage to PROVE they are.

  271. Wizard Emeritus wrote, “only if the “new” operating system can meet the demands of those who constitute the market for all the existing applications that are running on top of the Microsoft operating system for decades now. And that Dougie, is by no means assured.”

    GNU/Linux has been able to replace TOOS for more than 15 years by my experience. The Wiz is making a chicken or egg argument. When TOOS had the inside track, of course developers tended to crank out applications for it. Android/Linux is a bit of a toy OS intended for tiny screens with few active processes. Merging Chrome browser and the rest of GNU/Linux with it opens up many more possibilities. Certainly running larger screens with more processes active is possible with GNU/Linux. I ran 31 users simultaneously on Beast I back in the day. Every user was impressed with that performance. I worked with the students to design their own terminal server and basically cloned Beast I, optimizing cost/benefit for each component and TOOS was not among them. That was about 2004, ISTR. My first deployment of GNU/Linux in my own classroom ran NetScape and StarOffice very nicely compared to TOOS which could not run more than a few hours without crashing.

  272. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “OH, but M$ Windows is going nowhere fast.”

    Who cares!

  273. dougman says:

    OH, but M$ Windows is going nowhere fast.

  274. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Gartner actually got it right for once, as you see, you have a future amalgamation of Linux – Android – ChromeOS arriving soon. M$ cannot compete anymore and is due to die off.”

    Perhaps, but only if the “new” operating system can meet the demands of those who constitute the market for all the existing applications that are running on top of the Microsoft operating system for decades now. And that Dougie, is by no means assured.

    So we come back to reality, the market for desktop applications that happen to run on microsoft’s operating system is not going enywhere anytime soon.

  275. dougman says:

    “Google’s Android operating system will be used on more computing devices than Microsoft’s Windows within four years, data from research firm Gartner showed on Wednesday, underlining the massive shift in the technology sector.

    At the end of 2016, there will be 2.3 billion computers, tablets and smartphones using Android software, compared with 2.28 billion Windows devices, Gartner data showed.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-android-research-idUSBRE89N11J20121024

    Gartner actually got it right for once, as you see, you have a future amalgamation of Linux – Android – ChromeOS arriving soon. M$ cannot compete anymore and is due to die off.

  276. dougman says:

    “While Lenovo, Asus, Samsung, and Dell backed Windows RT initially, all of the tablet makers pulled out due to slow sales and a lack of interest from consumers. It appears that Microsoft’s experiment with ARM-based tablets has largely failed in a tablet market”

    http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/3/7974759/windows-rt-is-dead

  277. dougman says:

    “As far as ignorance is concerned, I do not expect anything less from someone whose IT needs are met by a crapbook.”

    Crapbook? Hows those Surface and RT devices working for ya? SOund slike some serious issues, better get on that.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/27/sleep_of_death_windows_10/

    https://www.reddit.com/search?q=sleep+of+death+surface&restrict_sr=&sort=relevance&t=all

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/search?query=sleep%20of%20death%20surface

  278. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I am. ”

    This has never been about you Robert Pogson. Nobody has ever contested the reality that You will do with your money as you wish. Using the only PCI slot on your magic board for a sata controller is viable, assuming that they ever deliver the board.

    You see that is the down side of yout “non-wintel” hardware, you have to make due with whatever the ARM market deems that it is profitable to produce.

    Hopefully you won’t have to wait that long.

    Any Rate, I have a lot of musical compositions that I created over a long period of time that are in need of final revisions, re-orchestration with my new virtual instruments, and general cleanup and prep. Since I do not have your problem with being Wintel free, I have been happily working on my music.

    Enjoy your wait.

  279. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Whereas with M$ and say Apple, you are stuck with what they give you, when they give it to you, whether you want it or not.”

    Dougie, Dougie, dougie. So long as microsoft’s platform runs my applications as they always have, I am fine. IF microsoft decides to go in another direction There is always apple, which as it turns out is also supported by my applications.

    IN spite of your fantasy, neither company (apple or microsoft) is going to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, at lease not until they have a replacement revenue stream in hand.

    But feel free to feel superior if it helps you feel better.

  280. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Because Android is set to conquer the world in the near future, and is open-source as there are custom versions available, competitors rely on it and you can take control of your device. ”

    Android will “conquer” as you put it only that portion of the IT needs of people that can be encompassed by the mobile device factor. Once you have something that goes beyond the level of complexity of your average android app, you are right back in the world of the classical desktop application. That is the market that is not going anywhere Dougie.

    As far as ignorance is concerned, I do not expect anything less from someone whose IT needs are met by a crapbook.

  281. dougman says:

    Let’s repeat that fallacy again.

    “there remains a market for commercial closed software that isn’t going to go away any time soon”

    Really ignorant is it?

    Because Android is set to conquer the world in the near future, and is open-source as there are custom versions available, competitors rely on it and you can take control of your device. Whereas with M$ and say Apple, you are stuck with what they give you, when they give it to you, whether you want it or not.

  282. The Wiz wrote, “Deal with it, Robert Pogson.”

    I am. We’ve had a rainy day so I’ve spent some time shopping for a SATA PCI-e card to add some storage to Beast III. I’m excited by the fact that only a very few of my young trees have died and the rest are thriving. So’s my plan to go Wintel-less. It’s relevant that the maker of one of my prime candidates seems oblivious to GNU/Linux yet the device has a decent driver in Linux. This device gives the user of GNU/Linux amazing performance. Standards not propping up Wintel are wonderful, eh? AHCI is one good thing Intel did right… I’ll probably order some equipment this week but I’ll still wait a bit for Cello or even Huskyboard to appear… Weather permitting I may actually plant grass this week.

  283. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “What market? Oh you mean the market where OEM’s are mandated to install Windows only, gotcha. ”

    Nope. The software that runs on top of it. Then again fixated on one company as you are you wouldnt know that would you.

  284. dougman says:

    “there remains a market for commercial closed software that isn’t going to go away any time soon”

    What market? Oh you mean the market where OEM’s are mandated to install Windows only, gotcha. In Comes vs Microsoft, Microsoft had targeted the competing operating system by pressuring Intel, as well as various major OEMs such as Dell and Compaq, to boycott Linux. For instance, Microsoft executive Joachim Kempin described his plan of retaliation and coercion to shut down competition from Linux.

    http://edge-op.org/iowa/iowaconsumercase.org/assets/attachments/Petition.pdf

  285. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Did anyone demand that … Nope. Didn’t happen.”

    And none of which is relevant to the point being made, which is that whether you like it or not, there remains a market for commercial closed software that isn’t going to go away any time soon, especially in cases where the so called “free” alternative is a pale shadow in quality and capability of the commercial one that people use.

    Deal with it, Robert Pogson.

  286. DrLoser wrote, “commercial software evolves, according to the demans of the “sheeple” who shuck up the money for it.”

    Did anyone demand that “10” take over peoples’ PCs like malware? ISTR folks are demanding M$ not do that. Did anyone demand that some suppliers held my former employers’ data hostage, demanding payment to release it to the next release of their software? Did anyone demand that a supplier refused to give us a new key when the old one disappeared? Nope. Didn’t happen.

  287. Dr Loser says:

    One of my contributions was a subroutine in Fortran 4 H that would choke the compiler.

    I hardly think that said achievement would qualify as “FLOSS” these days, Robert.

    Manifest incompetence, yes. Perhaps you should consider selling your lengthy experience as the purveyor of manifest incompetence?

    Well, licensing your manifest incompetence on a FLOSS licence, obviously. Share, Examine, Distribute, and so on.

    Think of the fortune you would make out of the documentation!

  288. Dr Loser says:

    But, back to basics.

    Over that time Finale has evolved along with the operating systems that it runs on from a package that performed music engraving tasks to a do it all composing workstation.

    One interesting thing here is that commercial software evolves, according to the demans of the “sheeple” who shuck up the money for it.

    Remember the thrill that you got out of Firefox releasing version 48, Robert? That’s not evolution. It’s just the forty-eighth version of a bunch of borderline incomepetents pratting around.

    Standard Operational Practise as far as FLOSS goes, I am afraid.

  289. Dr Loser says:

    Given your limited attention span when it comes to IT, Robert, I’m rather surprised that you got his first name right.

  290. Dr Loser says:

    Just out of interest, Robert …
    … Could you expatiate further on your personal relationship with this “Niklaus Worth” fellow?
    I can’t quite place the man. Then again, I never had any interest whatsoever in Pascal, so I’m sure you know better.

  291. Dr Loser says:

    Nonsense, Niklaus Worth personally shared the source and binary for his Modula-2 compiler when I was working in Saudi Arabia 1983-1985. I gave him a box of 8-inch floppies and he gave me another with the codes.

    I see you are veering away from your weirdo claim that anything written in assembler qualified as FLOSS*, you senile gibbering idiot.

    I note also that “sharing Pascal source code” in 1983-1985 hardly qualifies as FLOSS. You’d need the environment to use it — I have tried to drill this concept into your particularly thick and useless head several times — and that environment might well have been available to you, Robert Pogson, on an individual basis … but it wasn’t a given for anybody else at all.

    Were I to compile a Pascal program on my platform of choice (Stratus VOS) in 1990 or so, I would have to jump through several hoops and suffer intense pain.

    I was prepared to do that, Robert, because I am a programmer.

    You are nothing but a pathetic ancient wastrel who slimes around the edges of waiting for other people to program stuff on your behalf.

    FLOSS Assembler, pah! What a buffoon!

  292. Dr Loser says:

    I’ve yet to see anyone doing anything with IT that couldn’t manage the same tasks with FLOSS

    That’s because you are a bigoted blind senile idiot, Bob.

    There’s a fair amount of domain-specific computing out there. Sometimes, as with HPC and scientific computing in general, FLOSS is the natural choice. (Or at least one of them. I wouldn’t swear to the monopoly there.)

    Other times, it falls pitifully short.

    Designing roof trusses? (My game.) Not a frickin’ chance.

    Providing sample music libraries, and the software to use them? (The game favored by Wiz.) Not a frickin’ chance.

    That you do not recognize this is, I am afraid, conclusive proof that you have no clue what you are talking about, Robert, you ancient bigoted blind senile idiot.

  293. wizard emeritus says:

    “I’ve yet to see anyone doing anything with IT that couldn’t manage the same tasks with FLOSS, even The Wiz, if he made the effort. Beethoven didn’t need non-Free software and neither does The Wiz.”

    How do you know what I have done and do with FOSS Robert Pogson? In fact Ihave probably done more with all kinds of software FOSS and non FOSS than you have over the 30+ years that I worked in Educational IT. I use the software that works for ME, not Robert Pogson cheapskate and miser. Nor do I just “make do” with “good enough” software for those tasks where it matters. I have standards for my IT, and, unlike yourself, I am not loath to pay for what I determine that IT.

    I have been using Finale in my music making for going on 27 years. Over that time Finale has evolved along with the operating systems that it runs on from a package that performed music engraving tasks to a do it all composing workstation. All of the effort to create each successive version, including from what I understand are at least two full re-writes from scratch, were only accomplished by the continuous infusion of cash that only comes from its licensing fees. whether you accept it or not, the FOSS “equivalents” to Finale are not only less integrated, and capable, but they are buggy as well – bugs that invariably show up at precisely the time that I am attempting to use them. Since I have better things to with my time than trying to save a couple of bucks, the FOSS package gets de-installed and not looked at until the next “better” version comes out.

    The difference between commercially licensed software and community supported FOSS also shows up with the in memory samplers and sound libraries that I use in conjunction with Finale. The fact that an in memory FOSS sampler exists that can function as a VST plugin to finale means nothing when what is available to load is simply inferior sound wise to what is available commercially. The reality that a large amount of money time and effort has been invested by the vendor to hire musicians, record their instruments, and then process the raw sound and then load them into virtual instruments that have been specially created for the task of playback simply shows in my finished product – recordings of my compositions that sound like they are being performed by real ensembles. The FOSS libraries that I have tinkered with sound like crap in comparison, and I refuse to make due with what I consider to be a crappy substitute when re-creating my music.

    Oh ans BTW, Beethoven died almost 250 years ago in a very different world. If Beethoven lived what lived now and was as famous now as he was then, I will bet good money that he would be using tools of the same quality if not of better quality than I use not. He would not be scrounging around in digital equivalent of a second hand store for the tools to make his music – all to save a few bucks.

  294. DrLoser wrote, ” there was no such thing as FOSS before March 1985″.

    Nonsense, Niklaus Wirth personally shared the source and binary for his Modula-2 compiler when I was working in Saudi Arabia 1983-1985. I gave him a box of 8-inch floppies and he gave me another with the codes. Things like that were happening with paper/magnetic tape, FTP and e-mail long before 1985. RMS didn’t invent FLOSS. He codified it.

    It’s revising history to claim sharing did not exist in those days. I was there. I worked on/with code from all over. I spent some of the 1970s hanging out at the University of Manitoba’s computer centre. While waiting for batch jobs a lot of code was shared. One of my contributions was a subroutine in Fortran 4 H that would choke the compiler. Another found a bug in the loader which would fail if a segment ended exactly on a 4K boundary… I also worked on software shared with groups at CERN and U of BC and U of Birmingham, UK and PASCAL software from everywhere.. I actually had the source code for a LISP interpreter for IBM360. I never did figure out anything I could do with that language. I was mostly a number-cruncher.

  295. Dr Loser says:

    Folks were using Algol, assembler, Fortran, PASCAL and other tools that were not Cish and could do FLOSS just fine. It’s a coincidence that FLOSS is mostly associated with C.

    Go back and read the ESR link that Kurks kindly provided, Robert. You are talking hogwash here.

    Let’s first get our terms right. There was no such thing as FLOSS before the lads gratuitously added the “Libre” in. And there was no such thing as FOSS before March 1985 and the GNU Manifesto. And even that took a while to get traction: Linux didn’t use a GNU license until version 0.12, for example.

    Your assertion that people were historically “doing FLOSS just fine” before 1985 at the earliest is therefore nothing more than ignorant cant.

    The thing you miss about C (not C-ish languages, just C), and this is crucial here, Robert, is that C came packaged from the very start with a solid ecosystem. Furthermore, that ecosystem was vastly enhanced by the GNU guys — I can give credit where credit is due — via both the system libraries and the configure/make/make install stuff.

    And even then, circa 1990, I had to fight two non-compliant compilers — one at the BSD end, one at the Stratus end — in order to produce an executable that convinced me that I was better off rewriting my 3270 library myself. I don’t think my experience was that uncommon at the time.

    The lack of a common ecosystem at the time makes anything you say on the matter redundant … with two exceptions, neither of which you are going to like.

    You could just about fight Pascal (never a popular choice) or possibly Fortran (generally restricted to mainframes and minis, although I did use it on an Intel MICE) into shape. I believe you could find quite a lot of Fortran scientific code around, if you were prepared to make the effort.

    The idea of fighting assembler into shape just suggests that you are contemptibly ignorant about how computer programming works, Pog.

    And those two exceptions? Microsoft and Apple.

    There was an awful lot of freely available and genuinely useful and immediately compilable stuff available back in 1985-1990 for the IBM PC and the Apple II and Mac.

    Which you would have hated. Because it didn’t come with your precious FLOSS license.

  296. oiaohm, still not getting it, wrote, “A pure Linux school risks no Windows or OS X books in school library.”

    Forget the library. A pure GNU/Linux school may not even need a library. At a lot of schools where I taught, they had about 10:1 books:students ratio. When I introduced GNU/Linux I usually provided a local website on the LAN that had >100K books from Gutenberg.org and a local editable copy of Wikipedia with ~1million articles and ~100K images. I carried that all over the north on CDs so I could just copy it to the hard drives of servers and carry on. I could do that because we were not restricted by M$’s EULA nor did we have to pay for a server licence. So we changed the books:students ratio to ~300:1 by using GNU/Linux. With such a setup and a few more resources on the web, I can’t remember ever needing to take a class to the library. At Easterville where a library was in the budget, I added two six-seat kiosk clusters on the LAN and a library management system, greatly enhancing the capability of the library but a proper school using FLOSS can be nearly paperless if enough PC-seats are available. That’s much more likely with FLOSS than with TOOS and all that non-Free crapware. At Easterville, a consultant insisted on installing non-Free library-management system and it took months to get it installed after payment. My system installed in 15 minutes. FLOSS is way more flexible. That non-Free system refused to accept the “key” that the school paid for despite endless hours of phone-tag, e-mails and pleading.

    So, no, a school doesn’t need anything from Wintel. It’s just not necessary and often undesirable. Burdening students with slavery to Wintel does them a disservice.

  297. The Wiz wrote, “sometimes you actually have to pay what a vendor asks to license what you need.”

    No, I don’t. I have the option of saying “No” and walking/running away. My personal computing hardware is general purpose stuff. It can do anything IT can do. I just choose not to run crapware on it, or at least as little as I can manage. I do run flashplugin-nonfree, because of all the websites that depend on it in spite of its flaws. I may allow Adobe to waste some cycles on my machine but I’m not hesitant to kill it when it gets out of line. I make the same choices when paying for IT. I won’t pay for generic software that I can legally obtain under a FLOSS licence. Take PS, for instance. I’ve used it a couple of times and found stuff that was simple under GNU/Linux was difficult. I found the UI vague and complex. Why then should I rope myself into Wintel just to use that crapware? Etc… I just don’t need any non-Free software. It offers me nothing of value and takes away my freedom to use my hardware. I’ve yet to see anyone doing anything with IT that couldn’t manage the same tasks with FLOSS, even The Wiz, if he made the effort. Beethoven didn’t need non-Free software and neither does The Wiz.

  298. The Wiz wrote, “his determination to spend as little money as possible on HIS IT.”

    Where is the evidence of that? I think spending money on IT is much wiser than paying money for cigarettes, luxury cars and paywalls. Indeed, at Easterville, we spent the budgeted amount but allocated more to hardware and a lot less to licences, permissions to use that hardware. We got way more IT for the money and it was much easier to maintain than a fleet of thick clients. You folks have spent a week pointing out that my solution for my own LAN may well cost more than buying COTS stuff. The key thing for me is that I will have better IT (not necessarily faster but at least as good as what I have now, running on less power and with more capability than what I could afford with the same money spent on Wintel). The Wiz just doesn’t like that I don’t want to support Wintel in its old age. Why should I? It doesn’t work for me.

  299. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Most of the people Robert is calling slaves are technically not meeting their needs. ”

    Can the baloney. Robert Pogson dismisses as slaves anyone who does not follow his clarion call to reject commercial software in favor of his anointed software set. He refuses to accept delivery on even the notion that someone might have IT needs beyond his limited myopic view of what “people need” – A view I might add that seems to have more to do with his determination to spend as little money as possible on HIS IT.

    IN Short, Robert Pogson is a miser and a cheapskate, who rails against a world in his blog that ignores his pearls of IT wisdom. Fortunately for the rest of us who have certain deliverables for our IT and the cash to pay for them, it is still a free world in which we can when we need to plunk down our cash, and go on with our lives.

    And there isn’t thing one that Robert Pogson can do about it.

  300. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The folks who thrive without using TOOS and “commercial”/non-Free software are proof that those who believe they can’t live without those are fooling themselves/paying too much/falling for the sales-prattle”

    Those who “thrive” on FOSS on linux, are irrelevant to the point that I was making, as is your opinion of those who don’t. THe fact Remains that all of your whining about non-free software is meaningless in the face of the market for commercial software that exists and which will continue to exist so long as people like myself have need of the software that it offers.

    As far as paying too much attention to my sales prattle is concerned, where is the FOSS software that is equivalent in quality to my music software (Finale) in memory samplers (Garritan Orchestra, Symphonic Choirs, Vienna Symphonic Libraries, and the Conservitoire Collection), eh?

    You have no answer because you know that what does exist in the FOSS domain for the music software that I use is a pale shadow of the commercial software that I have licensed and use. But you would have me shun it because the vendors have not found it worth their while financially to run it on linux.

    The simple fact Robert Pogson, is that “good enough” does not always cut it, and that sometimes you actually have to pay what a vendor asks to license what you need.

  301. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson wrote “That’s faulty logic. The fact is that schools can’t teach everything to everyone. It’s just not possible so things have to be prioritized. For instance, curricula could require that every teacher in high school must be specialized in the subject area. ”

    This is not understanding the problem. The first document example was teaching of cooking being removed from USA schools. They stopped teaching not the end to the problem. In the schools that stopped teaching cooking books on cooking also disappeared to make space for other things they were teaching same with the equipment space the end result students lost their means to learn about cooking if they could not be taught at home. No one considered about protecting a token representation for those who did not have the chance to be taught at home.

    Now you walk into a school that is all OS X you go to library hmm only OS X books no Linux/Unix or Windows books. You repeat this with schools that are all Windows hmm only Windows books no Linux/Unix or OS X books. This is the same problem repeating. A pure Linux school risks no Windows or OS X books in school library.

    Yes it one thing to prioritized what is taught in class time. The thing that people running school forget they are not just controlling what is taught in class time but what resources students have access to in non class time.

    Fun part is this comes out of look at big data. All government owned high-school and primary school library collections are recorded in 1 large database per state in Australia same with hardware inventory of computers(yes for some reason computers are counted as library books its one of those historic oddities) now that gives a map of books in school vs type of computers in school. Interesting enough what that shows is 1 computer of any type accessible to students in any size school is enough to have books about that type of computer in the library even if that computer is not used anywhere in the curricula. It also shows as years go on schools with only 1 type computer the books in the library change to match.

    Yes a token space with a stove that students can get permission to use for cooking has equal effects on library mix at schools as token computer equipment.

    Thing to remember here library resources don’t just effect what students do at school as well as what they can do out side school hours.

    I am not saying a school has to teach everything or a library has to contain everything but its key that everything is kept in balance.

    Robert wrote prior “Nope. Students can usually experience those things outside school so there is no need to do it in school.”
    This line is lot of cases is only possible if the school is providing the resources about it or at least enough resources that the student knows how to put the right question to get the information about it.

    The big problem schools have is not seeing the difference between resources to meet curricula and use equipment they have to making a resource mix to match the outside world. The simplest way to keep a school internal resource mix close enough to the outside world is have a set of token items in the school and the token items keep the balance of accessible resources because if it out of balance some student soon or later will be asking in information how to use the token item and the librarian will find them self getting it.

    Self balancing systems are a lot simpler to maintain than artificially balancing systems.

    When ever someone says hey students can learn X outside schools the question should follow are the resources in fact in the school that they could and would the students even know how to ask for the resources. I don’t disagree with being cost effective but there is a very careful balance. Biggest problem with going out of balance resources in schools you make take 20+ years to find out you did. If something you are doing is absolute out of balance because there is no token items left(or no token items ever) it costs teacher time doing presentations to undo the miss balance or in 20+ years time be hit by the fully fall out.

  302. oiaohm wrote, ” Never ever take the idea that you can cut something out because the student will by chance learn it outside school because every time that is done there are long-term issues.”

    That’s faulty logic. The fact is that schools can’t teach everything to everyone. It’s just not possible so things have to be prioritized. For instance, curricula could require that every teacher in high school must be specialized in the subject area. Obviously that would put the best people in the right places. Unfortunately, very few teachers are qualified in technology, computing, physics, etc., “hard” subject. So, almost every school will have some part of the teaching assignments filled by people inexperienced or less knowledgeable in the subject area. My first “computers” assignment was triggered by a knock on the door late at night by the vice-principal asking if I could run the lab because the guy they had hired was not going to show up… Because I had extensive practical experience in using IT and GNU/Linux there was no problem at all. I worked a few days planning my courses and delivering them. It was great fun. I’ve also been called on to teach Biology, something for which I had almost zero training. The students and I had to “learn on the job”. I learned a lot… It’s the same way in subject matter. There are often way more courses in the curriculum than every school can deliver simply because of a limited number of teachers, classrooms and hours in the day. It’s just a waste of time to try to teach all students about every operating system. Most students need to be able to use IT, not become interchangeable parts in the Wintel ecosystem. They can learn to point and click in any OS. Done. However, I can tell you that GNU/Linux is much more useful than TOOS for teaching/learning simply because the GPL permits so many more uses than the EULA. For instance, with TOOS, you have to pay for a licence for every copy of the OS, more or less. That means if you have students practising installation of an OS on a PC you need a licence for every such PC. If those are the lab’s PCs, you don’t want students messing with the critical OS, so you need extra machines and extra licences or virtual machines and extra licences. With GNU/Linux, if you can find or make a machine you can install GNU/Linux on it. That makes GNU/Linux more useful than TOOS in education. Then the restrictions on networking. Suppose you have 24-30 students in a lab and the EULA says only 20 can share services… M$ says you can’t get the maximum usage out of a lab of 24 PCs. That’s silly. Don’t use an OS that’s preventing education/learning from happening. One of my greatest days of teaching was having students familiarize themselves with a brand new dual-core 64-bit PC with TOOS and pave it over with GNU/Linux. Students could see the improved performance instantly. Our 8 year old machines gave better performance than TOOS on a brand new machine for many operations like the first boot, or installation, or login or starting an application or updating/installing software.

  303. oiaohm says:

    oiaohm wrote, ” In fact having a sections Linux, OS X and Windows to show the full range of software is a good thing.”

    Robert wrote, “Nope. Students can usually experience those things outside school so there is no need to do it in school. What schools need to do is maximize use of IT to create, store, find and present information, something that is hard to do with a poor computer:student ratio.”

    We are going to remain disagreeing on the on point –Students can usually experience those things outside school so there is no need to do it in school.–

    The problem here is the word usually it means it does not happen in all cases. This same excuse why cooking stopped being taught at some schools result has been in some areas people living only on fast food because parents did not have time to teach them to cook. We know this is not healthy. Please note this chain reacted so there are sections in the USA where you cannot buy fresh fruit and veg because no one was buying that so they went out of business and that all starts with the arguement you just used Robert. Mind you the same argument was used 100 percent windows in schools as well. That one line is basically a universal mistake that causes big problems.

    Please take note I said sections Linux, Windows and OS X. I did not say balanced ratios. So a school might be 98% Linux computers 1% Windows 1% OS X. So in a 100 machine example 98 Linux machines and 1 Windows machine and 1 OS X machine. Basically enough to token demo to students that something different exists and if there is an example that is better served for some reason by those other OSs it can be shown to a student.

    I do agree number seats is important. Cutting windows and OS X to 1 unit each or worse shared video files demoing the OS’s you cannot afford to have to get a computer for every student is going to be worth it. But please note the key point here being 100 percent aware that you are no longer being representative by only showing Linux and not coping the fault those who decided to only show only Windows or OS X creating a distortion in the first place.

    Something import schools need to learn. Never ever take the idea that you can cut something out because the student will by chance learn it outside school because every time that is done there are long-term issues. Fortune favours the prepared not the lucky. Not showing students balanced presentation means they have to be lucky what does them no favours. Please note balanced presentation does not mean they ever have to get to use the item but they are made clearly aware it exists and what it can do so allowing them to look at it if a problem arises.

  304. oiaohm wrote, ” In fact having a sections Linux, OS X and Windows to show the full range of software is a good thing.”

    Nope. Students can usually experience those things outside school so there is no need to do it in school. What schools need to do is maximize use of IT to create, store, find and present information, something that is hard to do with a poor computer:student ratio. I’ve visited some school divisions which scorned PCs in the classroom. The government had to mandate use of all kinds of IT explicitly in the curriculum to get them to change. Even then, many just put one PC in each classroom or one computer lab in each school and claimed compliance. Meanwhile, in schools where I taught in the bush up north we were limited only by number of electrical outlets and power-bars we could get. We could get 20 older PCs per annum for freight from Computers for Schools and buy a few newer PCs and servers for LTSP and have a cluster of PCs anywhere they were needed. Our budget was usually something like $1K per annum for parts/consumables, some fraction of my salary, and a bit of freight on the trucks that brought in supplies every winter and were making the trips anyway, essentially very little in the scheme of things. Schools that ran TOOS were paying $1K per PC per annum to keep ~24 PCs running and some of my much smaller and more remote schools were pushing near 100 PCs.

    The thing about IT and its benefit to schools is that it is a product of several things, one being number of seats/simultaneous users. With TOOS or MacOS with the same money you get way fewer seats than $0 PCs and GNU/Linux. There was just no end to the benefit of using LTSP in schools while at the same time, M$ was forbidding remote access “to the software”. That difference is a huge force-multiplier you can only get with GNU/Linux or perhaps FreeBSD, which I haven’t used. If you have 11 Macs, 11 Wintel legacy PCs, and 11 GNU/Linux PCs, you just have 33 PCs, not enough to really work in education in a small school. If, instead, you spent the same money on systems the way I did, you can likely reach 100 PCs and make a real difference in how schools operate: fewer trips to labs and libraries (not wrong but just inefficient in productivity and time), less downtime with malware (huge, probably half my effort in IT in a TOOS-only environment), and real use of the network for educational tasks: searchable databases, applications, and indexes on the LAN. I remember at one school, there was a library with very low productivity. Classes would go there and waste half their time searching for stuff. As a teacher, I visited it to find teaching materials. They had an enormous stock of VHS tapes of good lessons relevant to the physical and biological sciences. There was no index. Teachers merely scanned the titles, previewed the tapes and hoped for the best. I created a database with MySQL, entered all the titles and added comments to all the items I reviewed. So, my work was not wasted but accumulated the body of knowledge available to following teachers. Similarly, I installed local copies of Wikipedia so teachers could add articles relevant to their students, courses and communities, building a body of knowledge. So the IT I installed compounded effectiveness over time whereas TOOS was a burden always threatening to fail and limiting what could be done with IT because of cost, fragility and the damned EULA from Hell.

  305. oiaohm wrote, “If you cannot afford to keep software upto date and current its really not meeting your needs.”

    That’s the business plan of M$ and Intel: squeeze everyone else in IT to maximize profit. That messes up everyone else to the point that in my classroom and labs TOOS was “in the budget” yet we did not have working IT: BSODs galore, lost files, malware, and even failures to boot. We weren’t getting what we paid for, working IT. The fact that merely replacing That Other OS with GNU/Linux solved all the problems and created opportunities is proof of that. In the last place I worked half the classroom-PCs were not working when I arrived. Only one had dead hardware. All the rest were TOOS. I re-imaged them, probably not in compliance with the EULA and still we could not keep them running more than one or two months. That meant several times a week I had to swap PCs for no gain whatsoever. I switched to GNU/Linux and I had no more “fixing” to do. We expanded IT with less workload, 80 PCs working well instead of 40 with half not working at all and malware all over. One PC took 5 minutes to respond to a click and the teacher would not let me install GNU/Linux or re-image it for fear of losing work. After all her paperwork was done for the year, I replaced her PC and she was amazed. Imagine how much more benefit she could have had from IT if she had accepted GNU/Linux months earlier. In Easterville, my biggest project, visiting educators were absolutely amazed how much IT we had simply because we didn’t have to support M$ and Intel’s life-styles.

  306. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson different field studies have the numbers between 70-100 percent are perfectly handled by FOSS solutions in large organisations(being 20 staff or larger). 30-0 have justification for commercial software. This does apply to schools based on what the school is teaching.

    So, there’s no way TOOS offered a superior option to schools yet the world was pushing schools to use TOOS.
    So this is not 100 percent correct Robert. Most case the TOOS is not a superior option to schools. In fact having a sections Linux, OS X and Windows to show the full range of software is a good thing. Problem here is a lot of schools have end up pure Windows so giving false understanding on what is possible in there students and when those students come teachers the problem becomes a self reinforcing problem leading to less and less software diversity being showing to students.

    Studies say Windows on everything in large organisations is a want not a need and most likely purely harmful to budget.

    Complain about Linux drivers failing when Linux updates is in fact complaining about something you need to-do to remain secure. The shocking reality is a percentage of hardware should go in the bin every year due to not having supported drivers any more.

    There is a need to buy hardware for a long time that is update able and you have control. Yet as android phone sales show people don’t buy on this metric. HTC for example ever model made after 9/2011 HTC supports unlocking its bootloader and changing the CID value(CID value is what carrier rom the phone will accept including change it to accept any and does not require unlocking bootloader on HTC). Yet for some reason HTC is not the most popular brand. The most popular brand Samsung as the worst bootloader and cid changing policy of the lot so leading to people jammed without means to update firmware or change carriers without changing phone. So this is a pure case of wants beating needs then complaining latter on about getting bitten. Basically no different to buying a dog at random than complain that it was savage and it bit you. The want with samsung is the fact that samsung phones look a lot like a iphone so it truly a cute puppy problem that truly after they take it home grows up and give them trouble.

    I like libreboot and FSF and the intel ME makes me laugh. Libreboot believed not providing a ME image meant ME part of intel did not run the reality was ME just run with default firmware image so less secure. Reality with intel hardware absolutely control over what it does has been missing for many years. Yes it only a matter of time before attackers find flaws in the ME part.

    As you can see a long list of lets berry head in sand and hope acquirement issues of not being careful on assessing need so items will produce future problems. Of course you acquire something that is not properly updating sooner or latter you will get bitten by it. You acquire something you don’t have the budget to take care of it will hurt you. You acquire something you don’t have proper control over sooner or latter it will bite you as well. Nothing of this is special.

  307. The Wiz wrote, “They make their choices and accept what they get. They are of no concern to anyone who purchases commercial software.”

    The folks who thrive without using TOOS and “commercial”/non-Free software are proof that those who believe they can’t live without those are fooling themselves/paying too much/falling for the sales-prattle. I’m living proof, for instance, that one can be a teacher, follow a modern teaching curriculum in maths, science, social studies and computer technology areas without using TOOS at all. I’ve met teachers who believed they had to use TOOS in order to fulfil the curriculum or that it was illegal to replace TOOS on a PC. They were ignorant but typical of the majority. The majority can be wrong. In all my career as a teacher I was most powerful when I switched to GNU/Linux because I was no longer limited by M$ or their EULA from Hell. Teachers, students and principals were very appreciative because they had more/cheaper/reliable IT simply by that change. It was short-changing students to limit them to TOOS. A concrete set of examples: In every school in which I worked in the North, there were a small number of servers usually running TOOS. A few used GNU/Linux for basic networking infrastructure. Only one had any kind of a web-application on the LAN despite having paid M$ $thousands for permission to “use” a server. The vast majority of “servers” weren’t serving anyone but M$ propping up their OS rather than serving the users of IT in the building. When I switched to GNU/Linux, suddenly those servers were running a bunch of web-applications, databases, helping to lighten the load on the Internet connection. Indeed, most schools where I worked had a single connection to the Internet sometimes not much faster than dial-up and at best typical of a single-family dwelling. The Internet just was not usable until it was cached on local servers. I also introduced the concept of the thin client allowing multiple users to share the joy of running software on a modern PC something M$ forbade. The first time I did that students were absolutely amazed that their ancient Lose ’98 PCs suddenly behaved like a brand new PC off the retail shelves, snappy and reliable. M$ had been fooling the world that PCs needed to be replaced every few years by shipping crapware and handicapping it with that damned EULA. As a result, schools where I taught had 3 to 4 times as many PCs as other schools in the neighbourhood and IT really enhanced education instead of being a dead weight just helping teachers kill more trees.

    So, there’s no way TOOS offered a superior option to schools yet the world was pushing schools to use TOOS. That was wrong and inefficient. I’m sure the same thing could be argued in all kinds of usage from home-IT to any business or government. It can even be quantified. I had a rather simple use-case and saved instantly and got several times the benefit from IT for schools. Folks with heavier needs typically report saving a huge amount over one “cycle”. It’s still more efficient to use FLOSS, not just for costs of licensing which was most important to me but also flexibility which is important for everyone. Why the Hell should M$ dictate how one can use the hardware one owns? That’s a stupid condition to “accept” when activating TOOS. I’ve done it only a few times mostly to show students what a pain it delivers. I’ve required many students to read the EULA and the GPL. I can’t recall any student who thought they were better off with the EULA.

  308. DrLoser wrote, ” I take the essence of that to be that Open Source was not really a practical concept until C came along.”

    Nonsense. Folks were using Algol, assembler, Fortran, PASCAL and other tools that were not Cish and could do FLOSS just fine. It’s a coincidence that FLOSS is mostly associated with C. If ESR and or GNU had worked with PASCAL, it would be the lingua franca of FLOSS. There are many roots of FLOSS. RMS and the GNU tools came from a UNIX/C background but that was not essential for the concept at all.

  309. kurkosdr wrote, “As long as you have a browser, music player and a basic word editor, you are happy. Good for you.”

    If that were the case why does Beast have 4230 packages ( dpkg –get-selections|wc
    4230 8460 119920), many of which have nothing to do with browsers and media players. Here are a few of my favourites:
    autokey-gtk – converts a keystroke into an arbitrary string of characters making shortcuts in HTML/CSS for the blog.
    build-essential – the basic packages needed to build from source so I can build custom kernels and a few applications not available from Debian
    dict – a dictionary client/server system that helps me look up spellings and definitions etc. when I’m writing
    recoll, findutils and mlocate – to find files and paths if I forget where they are
    mariadb and postreSQL clients and database servers
    freepascal – my favourite PASCAL software development suite
    gwakeonlan – a GUI for waking up machines suspended on the LAN
    vim, less, and a bunch of GNU tools for dealing with files from the console/emulator
    libreoffice – much more than a basic editor
    openssh – my ViseGripTM for using PCs and servers over a network
    qemu-kvm – system for running virtual machinery
    Lyx – What You See Is What You Mean tool for writing
    sox, ffmpeg, and imagemagick – tools for multimedia processing from the console
    swish-e – the tool I often use for search/indexing of files for web-applications
    tesseract – tool for OCRing the US DOJ v M$ exhibits etc.
    thunar – xfce file manager
    and, of course many editors and content-creation tools for text, audio and video.

  310. oiaohm wrote, “Nice that you call it a ludicrous idea and just shown you have absolutely no idea how Microsoft is implementing the registry..”

    This is again an example of M$ taking extreme measures to protect the fragile OS they developed with no concept of security back in the 80s-90s. Adding further layers may give the appearance of security but it also increases the odds of introducing yet another layer of attack. Far better a plan would be scrapping the crapware and writing a proper OS. M$ certainly has the resources to do so and yet they don’t because they have >1billion users used to all the crap who would find a proper OS unfamiliar. M$ has locked itself in with its own tools of lock-in. They’ve painted themselves into a corner and the only way forward is to apply more paint rather than doing things the right way. One reason for the flight to Android/Linux is that users don’t need to know how to tweak Android/Linux. It just works while TOOS requires expertise, or so say all these pundits who deride my lack of expertise… 😉

  311. oiaohm says:

    He calls us Slaves when all we want to do is use is software that we have determined meets our needs.
    Wizard emeritus problem here there is a difference between needs and wants.

    http://www.ucalgary.ca/reznet/system_req << comes clear when you read here. Windows XP is end of life right. So not secure. So they need a newer OS. Is this another Munich like problem where they don't have the budget for that and the answer is yes.

    Most of the people Robert is calling slaves are technically not meeting their needs. There are tons of examples of large places doing 70-90 percent Linux given them enough budget to keep their Commercial software machines current and secure. Of course that have stayed windows and deployed libreoffice and the like again reducing licensing costs back to reach a point of affordability.

    If you cannot afford to keep software upto date and current its really not meeting your needs. People are letting wants beat needs so getting themselves in a location they cannot financially afford. Please also note FOSS world call people stuck on unmaintained FOSS software slaves to it as well so this is not just a insult used against people using commercial software it has meaning.

  312. dougman says:

    How is writing a blog entry “getting in the faces of those who use commercial software”? It’s not that he is coming to you is he? It is by YOUR choice that you come here, you read what he wrote, then troll incessantly about it.

    The point you made about “He fantasizes about removing our rights”, well to be frank here, M$ has already done that, along with other software providers. You have no rights, this is perfectly laid in many of EULA’s that you agree to before you use the software.

    Windows caused you to lose a million dollars, tough shit! Think of all the corporate malware stories over the past years, not one of then sued M$ why?…they cannot as the EULA forbids such an action.

    You are “slaves”, M$ has forced you to upgrade it’s software, next it will be removing software and mandating bio-metric authentication before login.

  313. The Wiz wrote, “He calls us Slaves when all we want to do is use is software that we have determined meets our needs.”

    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with paying to use software. What I object to is paying far above the cost of production/replacement. That’s just wrong, a distortion of market forces. M$, Adobe and others do charge far more than the cost of production. People are foolish to do so when they could just pool resources to produce the software they want by other means. To say that M$’s product is the only one that will do is just wrong yet that’s the conclusion one comes to following the Wiz’ advice. He would not accept that everyone should use the same toothpaste or tires yet for some strange reason he believes that M$ is the only source of knowledge in operating systems. They are not. Proper software should be available for any operating system. Software that is made only for M$’s OS is part of a conspiracy to enslave the world and should be shunned. That’s what governments all over the world are doing when they insist on independence from providers of software. There’s nothing superior about monopolistic practices. Indeed, monopolies often are the haven of crapware.

  314. wizard emeritus says:

    I am posting here because Robert Pogson insists on getting in the faces of those who use commercial software. He calls us Slaves when all we want to do is use is software that we have determined meets our needs. He fantasizes about removing our rights to use the type of software that we want to use. It was that wish to destroy the market that has given me the software that I now use that I responded to in this case.

    As far as FOSS and other linux users are concerned, those that make their choices and go their own way without attempting to justify their choices by denigrating mine do so in peace as far as I am concerned.

    Remember: “As ye sow, so shall ye reap…”

  315. oiaohm says:

    What about them? They make their choices and accept what they get. They are of no concern to anyone who purchases commercial software.
    Wizard Emeritus yet you are here making it your concern. So by you posting hear you prove that statement is not true. About time you admit your doing lie of the worst kind the kind people don’t admit to themselves.

  316. oiaohm says:

    No evidence for this proposal, I see. But let’s assume that every single entry in the Microsoft Registry requires a corresponding security entry — say, a private key.

    This isn’t actually true. In fact, it’s a ludicrous assumption. But it seems to model your assertion fairly well.
    Dr Loser not true right guess what.
    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms724878%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
    There it is in Microsoft black and white. Security value per key in Registry is fact.

    Nice that you call it a ludicrous idea and just shown you have absolutely no idea how Microsoft is implementing the registry..

  317. kurkosdr says:

    I believe the first stored-programme computer happened in the 1950s. So, in my grandparents’ early years there was no software of any kind and the world still turned.

    Yes, but it turned in a slower manner.

    This, this is what you don’t understand. Companies will pay to make their business turn faster. They will examine every option under the sun, do limited rollouts, find out which option makes their business turn faster, and if that happens to be proprietary, they will pay.

    No amount of FOSSie ideology will change that. If FOSS works for them they use it, if not they choose another option.

    In fact, in the early days of computers, companies paid for proprietary systems, and paid through the nose, and were locked into non-standard stuff like EBDIC. Even in the golden age of hackerdom, they paid through the nose for Sun and SGI stuff, instead of going the way of the free BSD.

    Pogson, you are a digital hippie. As long as you have a browser, music player and a basic word editor, you are happy. Good for you. But stop recommending that companies should use a VW van (1st generation) instead of a Mercedes Sprinter. Caprice?

  318. Dr Loser says:

    I believe the first stored-programme computer happened in the 1950s. So, in my grandparents’ early years there was no software of any kind and the world still turned.

    How nice to hear you sympathizing with your fellow dinosaurs, Robert. Unfortunately you are not addressing Kurk’s question in any way at all. So much for your preposterous pretensions to be a “teacher.”

    Kurks linked to a typically self-aggrandizing post by Eric Raymond, which of course you didn’t trouble yourself to read. I take the essence of that to be that Open Source was not really a practical concept until C came along. Later than that, in fact, because you have to have a pervasive environment of C compilers, C cross-compilers, C runtime libraries, etc.

    But, whatever. I can personally vouch for the fact that Open Source was available, in a sense, on a number of platforms by 1990 or so. Generally speaking, it was available via universities who had an open FTP site — and most particularly Berkeley.

    Berkeley was whence I downloaded the Open Source (BSD, obv) implementation of the 3270 protocol, and cross-compiled it to Stratus VOS.

    It was absolute rubbish. I used it as a sort of documentation guideline and rewrote it so that it worked on my platform.

    Took me six days, including a test suite, as I recall.

  319. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “What about people who are can perform all there tasks they need without needing that.”

    What about them? They make their choices and accept what they get. They are of no concern to anyone who purchases commercial software.

  320. kurkosdr wrote, “Care to pinpoint the exact time period this was supposedly true?”

    I believe the first stored-programme computer happened in the 1950s. So, in my grandparents’ early years there was no software of any kind and the world still turned.

  321. Dr Loser says:

    Windows registry is suffering from on going problem. As Microsoft attempts to secure registry each key in registry is ending with with just as much security meta-data as a file on the file system.

    By day a magpie, by night a tramp under a lamp post. I have to give this to you, Fifi — you’ve chosen a dual career that most people would find utterly revolting in moral terms.

    No evidence for this proposal, I see. But let’s assume that every single entry in the Microsoft Registry requires a corresponding security entry — say, a private key.

    This isn’t actually true. In fact, it’s a ludicrous assumption. But it seems to model your assertion fairly well.

    And even under that extreme version of your assumption, it wouldn’t actually be a problem for the Windows Registry. Why? Because the Windows Registry is at heart modelled on an R-B Tree … I can see you readying yourself to wield your pitiful ignorance of R-B Trees once more, little girlie … and R-B Trees work at roughly O(log N).

    “Oh,” you say, well you would if you had half a brain, which you don’t, “but what about the processing of that security metadata?”

    Simple, you little ignorant tatterdemalion fool. You cache it.

    Go back to mending your fishnet stockings before darkness falls and you have to earn money on the only half of your “professional” career that offers you that opportunity.

  322. Dr Loser says:

    .Rarely do we plunk down money to hear someone speak.

    Well, you don’t plonk down money for anything at all, if you can avoid it, Robert, so you’re hardly an authority on this one.

    And naturally you are wrong.

    If “speech” has some commercial value attached to it, then people will pay to hear it. In fact, they do it all the time. Ex-politicians retail at $5,000 or more a night. Various other luminaries end up as after-dinner speakers at a more modest $500 a night. Motivational speakers, evangelical preachers, ex-sports stars, people who had a bit part in Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back … need I go on?

    Just because nobody in their right mind would pay to hear you to speak, Robert, does not mean that they won’t pay to hear somebody else speak.

    And so with programming, btw. Just because nobody in their right mind would pay to use your code, Robert — although there is a serious impediment here, because you don’t actually code at all — does not mean that they won’t pay to use somebody else’s code.

    So, a false analogy, and it leads to a demonstrably incorrect conclusion even if taken at face value.

    You’re on a roll here, Ancient One.

  323. kurkosdr says:

    there was a time when there wasn’t any non-Free software

    Care to pinpoint the exact time period this was supposedly true?

    Was it the time computers were a military invention and property of the military, when they were property of universities with the source available only to a small number of lecturers, was it the era Unisys was king, the era IBM was king, or was it the era of SGI and Sun workstations? Or was it when Windows NT took over desktops and workstations?

    Tell me Pog, what was that mythical point on time when every programmer gave the source to every user of the software, for “non-free” software to be non-existent or rare?

    I have no problem with script kiddies parroting Stallman’s Lost Paradise rhetoric, but I expect from a grown man to do his homework, discover the actual history, and know better.

    http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5277

  324. The Wiz wrote, “choose among the available packages for the best that meets our needs, plunk down our money, install our software and get on with the task at hand.”

    That’s an unnatural sequence of events. Software is information, like speech. Rarely do we plunk down money to hear someone speak. Speech and information are most often shared for $Free. Remember M$ laughed at Google for having no business-plan. Google survived and thrived because they helped people share information. Meanwhile M$’s initial dream of one hard drive on each computer with M$’s software on it has not thrived and is withering. M$ has decided to rely on its own servers to survive in the future because those are the only computers they control.
    Excerpts from M$’s latest 10-Q are informative:
    “Office 365 Consumer subscribers increased to 22.2 million.”

    revenue, margin, even earnings per share are all down 6 to 23%

    “Windows revenue decreased $292 million or 7%, mainly due to lower revenue from patent licensing and Windows OEM. Patent licensing revenue decreased 26%, due to a decline in licensed units and license revenue per unit. Windows OEM revenue decreased 2%. Windows OEM Pro revenue declined 11%, driven by a decline in the business PC market. Windows OEM non-Pro revenue grew 15%, outperforming the consumer PC market, driven by reductions in OEM non-Pro channel inventory in the prior year and a higher mix of premium licenses sold in the current year.”

    So, they are living off units sold in the last year, eh? Chuckle. M$ used to increase revenue 10% per annum and now the best they can do is linger. M$ has changed their business-model yet the Wiz clings to their old one.

  325. oiaohm wrote, “perform all there tasks they need without needing that”.

    I don’t think anyone actually needs non-Free software. After all, there was a time when there wasn’t any non-Free software and everything got done. Q.E.D.

    In these times when we do so much with software the world can and does write its own software. There still isn’t a need for non-Free software. I certainly find there is more software in the Debian repository than I could ever use. I still occasionally need something customized. I write it myself. Even then the amount of custom software needed is tiny, often only a config file. The world is so diverse and Free Software programmers so numerous if some software is really needed there will be someone who writes the FLOSS programme to get the job done. Most computers on people’s desks or in their hands are general purpose computers, not proprietary devices sold by a single outfit. It takes a slew of businesses to make a PC or server and it is completely unnatural that there should be any monopoly in any part of it. We have standards not because standards are an essential part of maintaining monopoly but so that more can compete in the market and more can use the products in the market.

  326. oiaohm says:

    wizard emeritus you cannot have it both ways really.

    We have tasks to perform and a budget to perform them with. If a particular piece of software can perform the task to our satisfaction, then it is indeed one thing less to spend money on, but if the only software that performs the task at hand is only available under commercial license for a fee, then choose among the available packages for the best that meets our needs, plunk down our money, install our software and get on with the task at hand.
    What about people who are can perform all there tasks they need without needing that. That you fail to understand all the time over and over again.

  327. wizard emeritus says:

    Thats nice dougie. Got anything original to say?

  328. dougman says:

    M$, putting the DOH! in Windows.

    “Macro malware is a term to describe malware that relies on automatically executed macro scripts inside Office documents. This type of malware was very popular in the ’90s, but when Microsoft launched Office 97, it added a popup before opening Office files that warned users about the dangers of enabling macros. Microsoft’s decision had a huge impact on macro malware, and by the 2000s, this type of malware went almost extinct. Lo and behold, some smart Microsoft UI designers start thinking that users might get popup fatigue, so in Office 2007, Microsoft makes the monumental mistake of removing the very informative popup, and transforming the warning into a notification bar at the top of the document with only six words warning users about macros. Things get worse in Office 2010, when Microsoft even adds a shiny button that reads “Enable Content,” ruining everything it had done in the past 10-15 years, and allowing macro malware to become the dangerous threat it is today.”

    https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/cert/2016/06/who-needs-to-exploit-vulnerabilities-when-you-have-macros.html

    DERP.

  329. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I’m not certain that would bring the house down… Seems I’ve been telling the world for nearly a decade.”

    Actually Robert Pogson, nothing but the vagaries of the market will bring windows down. There are more than enough people like myself who have our IT needs met by commercial software that runs on top of Microsoft operating systems. We do not need to make due with software that does not meet our needs because we are slaves to our money as you are. We have tasks to perform and a budget to perform them with. If a particular piece of software can perform the task to our satisfaction, then it is indeed one thing less to spend money on, but if the only software that performs the task at hand is only available under commercial license for a fee, then choose among the available packages for the best that meets our needs, plunk down our money, install our software and get on with the task at hand.

    And there isn’t thing one that you can do about it.

    Perhaps some day, you will understand that

  330. oiaohm says:

    Ok I will make oiaohm simpler. ooΩ with the longum above the two oo that is the shortest form with the same sound of course typing that would be hard.

  331. oiaohm says:

    BTW, something I always wanted to ask: How is your screen-name supposed to be pronounced/spoken? Everyone here just replaces it with the much more convenient “ohioham” that I doubt anyone has actually tried to figure out the original.
    oiaohm really its it turned out to be simple. ooo-ohm Basically this is obeying english rules vowels.

    Most don’t replace it at all it just people being jerks or idiots who don’t know enough english rules replace it kurkosdr.

    The first part in fact comes from https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daboia when I created the name I never intended for it to be spoken but at a meet up being having someone saying I was wanting to meet who made ooo-ohm first confused me the person was a keeper of snakes and just straight up read it and completely surprised me that it had a direct spoken form then I checked rules of english and hello it was right.

    Not everything written is intended to be spoken. Part of the reason why I have keep oiaohm handle for so long is how funny it was. oiaohm comes out of a script short cut
    Ok I Am Over Here Mate/Man added to quake 2 for death-matching that in game everyone else in team current location of the player that triggered it and rough direction to it latter on I find out it was able to be spoken.

    What about the drivers??? in Windows 7. Something you have major-ally forgot.
    http://www.piotrbania.com/all/articles/ewdd.pdf

    Does not change this key point either Windows support not covering drivers really screws up the 15 year claims you attempt to kurkosdr. Linux LTS support time include drivers.

  332. kurkosdr wrote, “Everyone here just replaces it”.

    Not everyone.

  333. dougman says:

    Re: Then nobody is obligated to take what you say seriously.

    LMAO, but you do take exception to what I say, otherwise you would never respond, no?
    I mean seriously, if what I said was such BS and just downright silly, then why bother responding?

  334. kurkosdr says:

    @ohioham

    BTW, something I always wanted to ask: How is your screen-name supposed to be pronounced/spoken? Everyone here just replaces it with the much more convenient “ohioham” that I doubt anyone has actually tried to figure out the original.

  335. kurkosdr says:

    @ohioham

    tl;dr

    (aka, if you are not going to invest the time to convey your message concisely, or at least write easy-to-parse english, I am not gonna invest the time to read it)

  336. oiaohm says:

    Actually it’s about fifteen years ahead of Linux and systemd. I think systemd will eventually get there, but it won’t get there with any help from useless dinosaurs like Robert Pogson, who has no clue whatsoever how to configure it.
    Dr Loser single files storing all key configuration data that is OS before Unix. So Windows NT registry design is a throw back. Claiming 15 years ahead here is so far wrong its not funny. The design fault that is at the core of NT Registry design was spotted 1973 with the birth of Unix redoing Multics.

    Early windows before registry was multi file exactly how early Linux and Unix has been. Early Windows, Unix, VMS and Linux worlds all hit exactly the same problem. Multi files attempting to edit the same configuration file at the same time. Windows NT when back to the Multics database mess with registry the others went forwards with simple solution add .d directories have application when reading configuration file read all files in there and glue them together. Interesting enough the .d solution comes out of sysvinit the one thing we have to thank sysvinit first developer for inventing.

    Windows registry is suffering from on going problem. As Microsoft attempts to secure registry each key in registry is ending with with just as much security meta-data as a file on the file system. This is where .d solution starts coming good each file in a .d directory only needs 1 lot of security meta data for multi values.

    Yes Dr Loser unit.d stuff in systemd comes from the break through idea the sysvinit developer came up with.

    15 years ahead don’t make me laugh some places Windows design is 40 years+ behind and they are stupidly attempting to make a design that was rejected as fail 40+ years ago. Basically Windows Registry is 40+ years behind everyone else so of course it has problems.

    Dr Loser true other than some very rare systems every one has backdoors. Security certified L4 as for example as far as anyone knows does not have a single flaw but it can do bugger all without using less validated parts. Issue is items that a OS is not properly updating like drivers on Windows. Samsung laptops bricking updating to windows 10 is in face version of this problem. Lets also not forget the floppy driver attack against VM machines and the like. Drivers are coming just as important to update as everything else. People complain about Android phones not get updates then completely missing Windows OS drivers are just as bad. Security is a on going battle currently Windows has hands tied in many key areas of course as soon as you say must have current drivers and this will equal some of your hardware not working you have complaints. Security is not a free lunch yet everyone expect it to be.

    Basically Dr Loser are you 100 percent determine to prove yourself a idiot. There was a book written about the making of NT by its lead developer he directly mentions Multics as where the basic idea of NT Registry comes from. At that point you cringe reading the book when you remember why Unix did not copy that from Multics.

    Systemd is not in fact model after windows as some who did not like it claimed its model after launchd form OS X and SMF from Solaris both that are quite sane designs. Interesting enough if you follow both Launchd and SMF back you will find go back to a common ancestor BSD init so way more modern than where Windows model goes for its init system.

    Sysvinit was picked up by early Linux out of do not reinvent the wheel idea yet no one bothered checking its operational requirements. Key Sysvinit operational require PID(Process ID numbers) must not be recycled so leading to a few decades of problems in conner cases on Linux. BSD developers with their init system rewrote it when they added PID recycling. Replacing the init system always brings cat fight.

    Interesting enough all the working designs without major issues of operating init systems have BSD init in there historic tree. Windows NT init has no connection back to BSD init and there are a long list of issues.

  337. oiaohm says:

    PS: My original point was that outside the NotAWalledGarden(tm) repos, very few linux binaries are signed and hence there is no guarantee the binary is what it claims it is or comes from the source it claims. Unlike Windows, where most good binaries outside the store are signed.
    kurkosdr this is bull. Anti-virus firms data disputes the point of view completely. Most Linux binaries that are are not signed that are not in repos have source code access so are conformable what they are. Yes the means to build from source and audit source might sound like pain but it does limit things.

    There are a huge number of malware in fact signed as if they are Microsoft for Windows. Sorry windows signed binaries from a security point of view has been reduced to a joke.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_signing
    Its basic wikipedia stuff kurkosdr. There are quite a few binaries for Linux out side the repos. Now if a Linux binary is closed source it will be signed. If the binary is open source it may or may not be signed with majority being signed normally by white list table. Anti-virus firms have done these numbers.

    2) The ability to keep an old version (say Windows 7) and receive security patches for one and a half decade or so, while Desktop Linux LTSes offer much shorter support duration and then demand a compat-breaking upgrade to a newer LTS.
    What about the drivers??? in Windows 7. Something you have major-ally forgot.
    http://www.piotrbania.com/all/articles/ewdd.pdf
    Its a growing attack vector into windows. Kinda makes having the userspace updated alone worthless kurkosdr. Yes Windows 7 might have longer updates of the userspace but most of the drivers support ended the day the hardware shipped. LTS version of Linux is 5 years and that is 5 years of security fixes to the drivers and userspace. Windows might have. Officially windows only has 1 decade of support documented for user-space with extensions you might get 15 on userspace but that still does not change having basically zero on the drivers.

    From a security point of view if a bit of hardware no longer has supported drivers you are safe to scrap it so the extra years of Windows updates are in fact worth nothing if you properly look at the problem from a security point of view.

    Windows side has good userspace support time but really need to lift the driver time. Linux side has good driver support time and a little short on userspace time. So if the word is security Linux wins and it comes with a higher hardware turn over rate at times. If word is I want to leave the same system in place and never change it and don’t care about the security risk that much windows wins.

  338. Dr Loser says:

    I still find it amazing that most businesses find TOOS essential in any way. I was once talking to a small business-man. He told me that he ran TOOS only because government required him to run a certain TOOS-only application for reporting/interfacing with government.

    He probably told you that so that you stopped whining and left him alone to run his business, Robert.

    But let’s just stipulate that this is a problem. We shall define a set of Microsoft-only apps that are required by various regulatory authorities, and call that set {MS}.

    We shall further define a set of alternative apps that are not required by said authorities, but fulfil all other business needs in question. We shall call that set {SME}. (The labels do not affect the semantics. Swap them around if you wish.)

    Now then. {MS} is clearly singular. {SME} comes in several flavors, but for these purposes we shall define two extremes: {SME/MS} and {SME/FLOSS}.

    Even a junior business consultant, given these constraints, would offer the following two alternatives:
    1) Stick with {MS} and {SME/MS}. It’s easier.
    2) Go with {MS} and {SME/FLOSS}. It’s better.

    You’re not much of a consultant, are you, Pog? Although in aspirational terms, you are very much a technical junior. Because what you should have done for your friend, the small businessman, is to recommend option (2).

    A simple Citrix client to a sliced MS server, as provided by the likes of Amazon Web Services — or even Azure, if you’re prepared to swallow that pill — magically solves that problem.

    But you don’t actually care about small businessmen, do you, Pog? In fact the only person you care about is yourself.

    No wonder nobody gives a rats arse what you think.

  339. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “No one here is obligated to any demands. ”

    Then nobody is obligated to take what you say seriously.

    eh.

  340. Dr Loser says:

    M$’s registry has evolved

    Nice of you to admit that, Robert. But it wasn’t what you claimed in the first place, was it? A casual reader might have come to the conclusion that you were claiming that the Registry is a disaster in 2016.

    For the avoidance of doubt, if there are any casual readers out there: it is not.

    Actually it’s about fifteen years ahead of Linux and systemd. I think systemd will eventually get there, but it won’t get there with any help from useless dinosaurs like Robert Pogson, who has no clue whatsoever how to configure it.

    … but over the 15 years or so that I had to deal with it:
    [it] caused untold gazillions of re-re-reboots as this or that change edited the registry and called for yet another reboot.

    And around 100,000,000 system administrators during that fifteen year period managed to cope, Pog, whereas all you can come up with is “untold gazillions.” How very scientific of you. Care to narrow that down to a range that actually means anything, as a potentially verifiable proposition?

    You unscientific clod.

    Still, you are the one man in fifteen years standing against the contrary evidence of 100,000,000 sheeple administrators.

    You must be very proud. You are indeed a Special Snowflake, Robert.

  341. Dr Loser says:

    Indeed, “10” may be declared malware.

    I prefer the term Purple Monkey Dishwasher myself, Robert, but unlike you, I am prepared to let lesser mortals come up with their own labels. Just so long as you recognize the fact that nobody cares what you think on this point. And even less consumers will listen.

    It fits the description of a phish/trojan/backdoor.

    Well, it doesn’t really fit the description of a Phishing attack, does it?

    And as for a Trojan Virus, you’d be hard pressed to claim that it’s any different from any other OS. Install OS, open up attack vectors. Well, I say “hard pressed to claim,” but then again I, like 99% of the world, require a higher standard of Scientific Proof than you can offer, Robert. I guess you’ll just stick with Unscientific Quasi-Religious Bigotry and claim it anyhow.

    And as for “backdoors,” well, there are several of those out there. Outward facing FTP daemons on a Linux server, anybody?

    No, Robert. That pig has no lipstick on it, either.

  342. dougman says:

    Re: Oh and we understand you reluctance to attempt to outline such a scenario yourself, being that you have admitted that you are not technical.

    And you are an admitted pompous ass. No one here is obligated to any demands.

    Easy to make bold statements when you are anonymous behind the keyboard.

    Eh.

  343. kurkosdr wrote, of “10”, “report it to your local authorities and request it’s removal from local retail selves”.

    That’s a great idea!

    “ANGRY USERS have launched a petition requesting that the Electronic Freedom Foundation (EFF) investigate the practices employed in persuading people to upgrade to Windows 10, known to us here as Updategate.
     
    The petition cites a number of problems that we have dealt with on these hallowed pages, as well as an incident that came to light on Friday in which a rural African involved in stopping the poaching trade had 6GB of data downloaded on a per MB metered connection.”

    See Updategate: Users petition EFF to challenge Microsoft’s Windows 10 practices

    I thought about blogging this but was too tired digging, spraying and planting. I’m not certain that would bring the house down… Seems I’ve been telling the world for nearly a decade. At my age, perhaps it’s time to let the younger folk take over. They seem to have a good start buying non-M$ smartphones by the billions.

  344. kurkosdr says:

    very few linux binaries = very few Desktop Linux binaries

  345. kurkosdr says:

    Indeed, “10” may be declared malware.

    If so, report it to your local authorities and request it’s removal from local retail selves. Even if they ignore your request you ‘d have done your duty as a good citizen. But if you haven’t made such a request and are aware of the practice, you are concealing criminal activity.

    I expect to see a request from you to the local authorities for removal of “10” from retail selves soon.

    PS: My original point was that outside the NotAWalledGarden(tm) repos, very few linux binaries are signed and hence there is no guarantee the binary is what it claims it is or comes from the source it claims. Unlike Windows, where most good binaries outside the store are signed.

  346. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Challenge me? What you cannot use Google for yourself?”

    Interesting reading, with advice that would be good for anyone, Dougie, regardless of the OS and apps that they use.

    Oh and we understand you reluctance to attempt to outline such a scenario yourself, being that you have admitted that you are not technical.

  347. kurkosdr wrote, “Step out of the repository NotAWalledGardenHonest(tm) and you are “at your own risk” buddy.”

    No difference from M$. They offer no guarantees even that the software will be fit for purpose. Indeed, “10” may be declared malware. It fits the description of a phish/trojan/backdoor.

  348. kurkosdr wrote, “the fact he didn’t mention the name of the software is suspicious.”

    No, it’s just the way government operates. They use some expensive application and they insist everyone implementing some program use the same application to enforce compatibility. He didn’t say and I didn’t ask but the licence cost $4K for one instance. This was an office helping small businesses start up and interface with every relevant department of government and market analysis and training.

  349. kurkosdr says:

    He told me that he ran TOOS only because government required him to run a certain TOOS-only application for reporting/interfacing with government.

    If it’s true, that’s bad since it would prevent users from using perfectly good OSes like OS X and ChromeOS to do the job. Although the fact he didn’t mention the name of the software is suspicious.

    Most government services run on websites nowadays.

    Most of the reasons small-businesses still use Windows are:
    1) MS Office running natively
    2) The ability to keep an old version (say Windows 7) and receive security patches for one and a half decade or so, while Desktop Linux LTSes offer much shorter support duration and then demand a compat-breaking upgrade to a newer LTS.
    3) That one precious Windows app. Usually some CRM thingie or something connecting to some machinery/measurement thingie.

    Of course, if all you want from a computer is a browser and some basic word editor and maybe a media player, then you can just upgrade to the latest LTS of whatever OS you want, so there is no hope to understand those 3 points I mentioned.

  350. kurkosdr says:

    @dogbrain

    Again, I challenge you to provide a pen-testing scenario for Ransomware that doesn’t work on Desktop Linux but works in Windows Vista or higher with default settings.

    If anything, Windows warns you when you run an unsigned exe, and most of the good Windows binaries are signed. Desktop Linux? Step out of the repository NotAWalledGardenHonest(tm) and you are “at your own risk” buddy.

  351. luvr says:

    “Google…Scroogled??

    I am talking about MicroSh1t….nice change in subject. Next time please do stay on topic.”

    That was no change of subject; what Microsoft is doing here is exactly what they, themselves, coined the “Scroogled” term for. Probably a perfect example of “practice what you preach”.

  352. dougman wrote, “UK businesses are buying Bitcoins for the anticipation of ransom malware.”

    That’s an interesting example of slavery to Wintel. Normally a business will buy insurance for misadventure but I guess that’s doubtful with the near certainty that TOOS will fail sometimes badly. Also, bad guys really don’t want to send an invoice to an insurance company… What the world needs is an objective evaluation of the risks of using TOOS. I’m sure most would find it negative considering that GNU/Linux or other rugged OS can do 80-90% of what needs to be done and with a little effort by business generally could do 100% of what TOOS does on the good side and very little of what it messes up.

    A business can insure an automobile for collision and other liabilities but I doubt anyone will promise to pay for the damage Wintel causes which is near certainty, rather than a small risk that can be shared into a profitable transaction. The premium would necessarily be higher than cleaning up after a mess is made. OTOH, some businesses depend so much on IT that a really big mess could mean turning out the lights. I still find it amazing that most businesses find TOOS essential in any way. I was once talking to a small business-man. He told me that he ran TOOS only because government required him to run a certain TOOS-only application for reporting/interfacing with government. Governments should not enslave their own people for M$. That’s insane. The world can and does make its own software. European governments are catching on to that but Canada still is in the Stone Age.

  353. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser the CVE number of a fault lead you to a description of how damaging it is and what level access is required to perform it. So someone shows a video demoing a security fault before commenting on it you really should match up what CVE it in fact demoing before commenting. The CVE also description also gives idea how a particular exploit can be used maliciously. So how do I know that Deaf Spy is not some idiot who when reads the CVE then turned into a script kiddy. So at some point people being idiots don’t deserve sections of information. Commenting in security faults there is a duty of care.

    Your technical problems with the Windows Registry are … what?
    Linux and OS X individual file method with .d directories in a lot of places this is a lot simpler to 100 percent remove all record of an application. Lot of the issues in Windows Registry existed on Linux, OS X and Unix before the introduction of the .d directories allowing applications to put there individual alterations files instead of modify the application core configuration file.

    http://blog.siphos.be/2013/05/the-linux-d-approach/
    I don’t know how you would implement .d directories in Windows registry. Windows was not designed with the idea of a individual registry hive per application and implementing it would turn painful.

    The other advantage of the individual file method is a failure to flush everything to disc at the wrong time normally loses 1 file under Linux. I don’t know why under Windows the complete registry storage directory is rewritten at times this results in a window were all registry files can magically disappear in some failure to flush to disc events this is still in Windows 10. So some of the windows registry handling behaviours are just pure wrong the one of nuking the complete registry storage directory when replacing all system registry files is pure wrong. So some of the advantage of the individual file system could be brought to windows just by fixing that. Sometimes I think Microsoft leaves bugs in so they can sell newer versions.

  354. DrLosere wrote, “the precise technical details of your problems with the Windows Registry.”

    M$’s registry has evolved but over the 15 years or so that I had to deal with it:

    • caused untold gazillions of re-re-reboots as this or that change edited the registry and called for yet another reboot. Meanwhile Debian can update hundreds of packages or do a fresh installation or upgrade with 1.000000 reboots.
    • frequently, removing some application from the system left it broke.
    • further, the registry, when tweaks are needed, is utterly opaque to the user.

    I should probably add vulnerabilities due to malware editing the registry, but I don’t want to rub it in. The registry reminds me of a cattle chute. Once entered you carry on until something bad happens.

  355. dougman says:

    However, since we are off topic for the moment, lets bring up the fact that UK businesses are buying Bitcoins for the anticipation of ransom malware.

    http://blogchain.info/post/57-of-uk-businesses-stockpile-bitcoin-to-pay-hackers

    Instead of using something that would solve all the woes of Win-Dohs, they rather buy Bitcoins, but hey, that’s fine by me too. Obvious, that they have little faith in their security practices.

  356. dougman says:

    Google…Scroogled??

    I am talking about MicroSh1t….nice change in subject. Next time please do stay on topic.

  357. Dr Loser says:

    the damned registry …

    It’s a shame to limit ourselves to mocking the total ignorance of Fifi and Dog-Brain and Luvr here, Robert. Why don’t you join in by expatiating on your own “total ignorance of choice?”

    Your technical problems with the Windows Registry are … what?

    Luckily, explaining these technical problems does not require evidence that you have somehow acquired five years’ worth of expertise as a Certified Electronic Engineer … in a matter of days, whilst idly perusing links to decrepit ARM server boards. No! This one is far easier!

    All you have to do is to remember how awful you felt when you dropped your laptop on the tarmac back there in the mid 2000s or so, and give us all a pointless explanation of how “Da Registry” was at fault.

    I doubt many people could make that connection, Robert. But I have faith in your extraordinary abilities.

    Do please explain, O Muse of Manitoba, the precise technical details of your problems with the Windows Registry.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  358. Dr Loser says:

    Deaf Spy really that you decided to bring up another cross thread to win point I am not going to give you the CVE number now because you don’t deserve to know besided the javascript stuff where you are an absolute idiot is way more fun.

    So then, Fifi.

    If we can find the CVE number ourselves, and explain how it is, in fact, relevant, despite your pathetic bleats, we win?

    Answer yes or no, please. I’m thoroughly sick and tired of your pathetic ignorant dissimulation.

  359. Dr Loser says:

    Speaking of Windows 10, did you know you give your life away to M$?

    Well, apparently you are unique as a human being, Dog-Brain. You do not defecate, you do not shop for food or clothes, and you never have sex in any form. Actually, that last one sounds perfectly believable.

    Care to explain how Microsoft controls your life at that level? No? I thought not, Dog-Brain.

    Idiot. Now thenL

    “you grant to Microsoft a worldwide and royalty-free intellectual property license to use Your Content”

    Apparently you have no concept of how sub-clauses work in legal mumbo-jumbo, Dog-Brain. Let me enlighten you. A sub-clause is dependent upon the main clause. Let us examine the two as one, shall we?

    To the extent necessary to provide the Services to you and others, to protect you and the Services, and to improve Microsoft products and services, you grant to Microsoft a worldwide and royalty-free intellectual property license to use Your Content, for example, to make copies of, retain, transmit, reformat, display, and distribute via communication tools

    Not quite the same thing at all, is it?

    And you’d be hard-pressed to prove that Google doesn’t have precisely the same operational EULA … because, well, y’know …

    It does.

  360. luvr says:

    “you grant to Microsoft a worldwide and royalty-free intellectual property license to use Your Content”

    So, effectively, you’re “Scroogled”.

  361. dougman says:

    Speaking of Windows 10, did you know you give your life away to M$?

    “you grant to Microsoft a worldwide and royalty-free intellectual property license to use Your Content”

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/

    http://cohornlaw.com/what-attorneys-and-their-clients-need-to-know-about-windows-10-and-microsofts-new-privacy-policies/

  362. dougman says:

    “Hey, Dougie, please tell us another “vulnerability” which requires administrator privileges of local access. Please, please!”

    Well, lets try for one that does NOT require admin privileges?

    WINDOWS 10!

    Thats right… WINDOWS 10

    “Would Microsoft really take over someone’s computer without warning and install a significant chunk of software without explicit permission? That’s what malware does, I thought, not software from one of the biggest tech firms on the planet with the largest operating system installed base on desktop and laptops PCs.”

    http://www.computerworld.com/article/3080102/operating-systems/how-windows-10-became-malware.html

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/3073457/windows/how-microsofts-nasty-new-windows-10-pop-up-tricks-you-into-upgrading.html

    http://www.inquisitr.com/3143239/windows-update-microsoft-using-malware-tactics-to-force-windows-10-on-users/

  363. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy really that you decided to bring up another cross thread to win point I am not going to give you the CVE number now because you don’t deserve to know besided the javascript stuff where you are an absolute idiot is way more fun.

  364. Deaf Spy says:

    Maybe the person in russia did not describe the fault correctly.

    Then describe it yourself, Fifi. And we still wait the fabulous script that downloads the mysterious high-quality FLOSS orchestra sound library…

  365. oiaohm says:

    dougman don’t answer Deaf Spy he is cross thread spamming.

  366. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy not that I have a clear understanding of russia but actions performed exactly align to a particular CVE number and its not administrator only. Maybe the person in russia did not describe the fault correctly.

  367. Deaf Spy says:

    if you could read Russia or knew the vulnerability being demoed was covering

    Fifi, perchance you know Russian? Would you then be so nice to prove your knowledge is that grant-ancient, pseudo-Slavic language by translating this piece for us:
    Однажды осенью отец Онуфрий очнулся, опохмелился оставшимися огурчиками, отрезвел, оделся, оставил опочивальню, отслужил обедню, окрестил отрока

    Don’t try Google translate. It fails miserably. 🙂

    For your information, Fifi, I do speak Russian. A defect I got from the years of Communism. So, please shove your laughable “evidence” where, hm, I guess I don’t need to tell you.

  368. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy really shut up idiot the “vulnerability” demo if you could read Russia or knew the vulnerability being demoed was covering how to raise up privilege the example in fact worked from guest account just as well as from administrator. If you understood it you would have asked for one not need local access. Sorry no point crossing threads when you are just a idiot who does not understand what was demoed.

  369. Deaf Spy says:

    Hey, Dougie, please tell us another “vulnerability” which requires administrator privileges of local access. Please, please!

  370. oiaohm says:

    Please do notice that they say the most common OS is Windows XP that is past end of life in dougman link. Yes how to have security mess 101 run out of date operating system without updates.

  371. dougman wrote, “You cannot plug all the holes in M$ Windows, the supply is endless.”

    Amen. M$ keeps manufacturing bugs in a geometric series because they build on the previous layer of bugs. Further, many vulnerabilities are not bugs, but features, like executable images and magical cursors and file/print sharing mixed and copying bugs from earlier single-user non-networked versions and 4700 ABIs and backwardness and the damned registry and auto-whatever and….

  372. dougman says:

    “Linda Dalgetty, Calgary’s vice-president of Finance and Services said the issue was “very challenging,” but the university’s IT staff are working around the clock to plug the security holes which allowed the ransomware to infect systems in the first place.”

    LOL….what an idiot. You cannot plug all the holes in M$ Windows, the supply is endless.

    Looks like they are big on Windows, who would have thought.

    http://www.ucalgary.ca/reznet/system_req

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