Price – One Measure Of Lock-in

“A one-time purchase of Office 2016 — for either Windows PCs or Macs — costs $149 for the Office Home & Student; $229 for the Office Home and Business; and $399 for Office Professional.

A subscription to Office 365 Personal — which includes Office 2016 (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote, Outlook, Publisher and Access — for installation on one PC or Mac (plus one phone) is $70 per year. A subscription to Office 365 Home, which includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote, Outlook, Publisher and Access, for installation on up to five PCs/Macs and five phones — is $100 per year.

Office 365 business subscriptions, some but not all of which include rights to download Office apps to local machines, vary in price according to plan.”
 
See How much does Microsoft Office 2016 cost without a subscription?
One way to judge the strength of M$’s lock-in is to compare the price folks pay to be slaves to M$ rather than using FLOSS like LibreOffice which would cost them $0 per anything, forever. First they pay an unknown amount for the OS, the walls, floor and ceiling of their lock-in. Then they pay huge amounts for the privilege of using and creating documents on their PCs. It’s many $billions per annum to M$.

For many, ignorance is the key lock-in. Folks born and raised as slaves may not appreciate there is any other life. Slaves may feel any competition to their slave-master is a threat to their way of life. Education is key. Students exposed to FLOSS at school will certainly know there is another way, a better way to do IT. Students I taught even knew how to install GNU/Linux and applications like LibreOffice. Today, there are many more retail shelves bearing GNU/Linux and LibreOffice than the bad old days. The stats show it. LibreOffice has over 100 million users. GNU/Linux as the classic desktop and Chrome OS are slowly but surely taking share in the world. Android/Linux is kicking butt.

While we can measure slavery by price of lock-in. We can also measure freedom by share of page-views. Freedom is happening despite all that lock-in.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in Linux in Education, Teaching, technology and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

76 Responses to Price – One Measure Of Lock-in

  1. oiaohm says:

    But the likes of QGIS and ArcGIS? These are visualization tools. We’re in a whole different domain here
    DrLoser you don’t know either do you. Because they are not just visualization tools.

    http://www.digital-geography.com/python-in-qgis-and-arcgis-a-small-example/

    Signal processing and geometry and similar data acquisition naturally require mathematical precision, within the appropriate tolerances.
    Both qgis and arcgis has huge mathematical engines that can be asked todo anything to the map data. But due to issues with Windows the mathematical engines in arcgis has been doing the equal 1 + 1=4 at worst error events at best error event failing to process at all. Yes the issue here is arcgis is not maintaining appropriate tolerances for lots of applications. The issue here is arcgis not the only windows based mathematical tool having major trouble.

    If you are talking about gis applications that are just visualization you are talking about kde marble and google earth not qgis or arcgis.

    The other issue you suffer with arcgis is the rejecting your application because your application is too large in file size. Insane as it sounds you have arcgis and qgis generate exactly the same map. The result can be 10 to 1 differences. So arcgis generates a 900 meg PDF and qgis generates a 90 meg PDF. What has happened. Simple qgis used lossless image compression inside the PDF arcgis did not worse arcgis does not have an option to turn the compression on. Turns out maps on average compress extremely well.

    Then it gets worse. You want sat data from particular commercial providers. Some of these provides the format they provide in is postgis. Guess what ArcGIS will not have anything todo with postgis. qgis on the other hand handles postgis and with mucking around will work with ArcGIS storages.

    Exactly why some commercial providers use postgis is that you can do queries against their data set and only download what you need. Saving you time and bandwidth.

    Now arcgis does have some usage to building designers. Radio for the last 3 years Arcgis has not been useful unless you want to be questioned by regulators due to them receiving dud applications generated by Arcgis and other closed source tools.

    To be correct some people are making the mistake like DrLoser. Since a some are using Arcgis for visualization only because of its 3 buildings on map feature and using a open source GIS on Linux or OS X(like Qgis) todo the mathematical processing and maps for submission generation because that way is safe. So arcgis is now the icing on the cake not the cake at best in the radio field. Arcgis use to be the icing and the cake.

    You have to remember qgis might be open source but its built by full time coders employed by different companies to provide them with a GIS solutions. So this is commercial vs commercial. Qgis comes into existence because companies got sick of paying huge fees for software todo GIS processing.

  2. DrLoser says:

    For “geometry” read “geodesy.”
    Not that it matters.

  3. DrLoser says:

    … oops, sorry.

    Incidentally, and perhaps you can help me here, Fifi, I don’t quite see where some obscure FCC regulation concerning mathematical accuracy might even come into play.

    Signal processing and geometry and similar data acquisition naturally require mathematical precision, within the appropriate tolerances.

    But the likes of QGIS and ArcGIS? These are visualization tools. We’re in a whole different domain here … unless, of course, you can drag up those spurious FCC links that you claim to have.

  4. DrLoser says:

    Incidentally, and perhaps you can help me here, Fifi, I don’t q

  5. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser really all the case is you are attacking stuff without doing any research.

    And the standard scientific method requires that one makes that “research” public, oiaohm. Where’s your research, then?

    FCC has rules for requesting signal space usage on what you have provide.

    Indeed.

    If you go and down load those rules you will find using a closed source application is not allowed as you have to provide complete working and the exception that use to allow you not to provide the source code was removed 2 years ago.

    No, I won’t.

    Of course you just want to call me fraud.

    I have no desire either way, Fifi.

    Besides, my preference is to let obvious fraudulence speak for itself.

    I must say, you are the Mistress of Fraudulence on this site.

  6. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser really all the case is you are attacking stuff without doing any research.

    FCC has rules for requesting signal space usage on what you have provide. If you go and down load those rules you will find using a closed source application is not allowed as you have to provide complete working and the exception that use to allow you not to provide the source code was removed 2 years ago. Of course you just want to call me fraud. They are not the only radio regulator around the world that has had interference issues caused by defective maths in different bits of software causing stuff to be placed in the wrong place.

    DrLoser read the rules of the FCC you have to provide a complete software system you used to perform the maths on. Windows Licensing does not allow.

    So your choices is BSD or Linux in a virtual machine image so meeting the regulation requirements.

    Its not like https://geonet.esri.com/thread/119279 arcgis is being that friendly. Arcgis has been having failure issues for the past 3 years. Between Windows updates, anti-virus heuristics and its own updates.

    One of the normal GIS benchmarking where you generate a map of a particular area of the earth using sat scan has been crashing in Arcgis as well.

    If you cannot work it out DrLoser due to the mess the closed source gis solutions two different runs can give two different results completely with them at times. qgis based stuff gives predictable results and the regulators accept it because the results are predictable and adjustable in dependable ways.

    Yes the FCC rules for a long time has stated you must have repeatability in generation of signal maps. Arcgis until the developers get on top of it problem its only suitable for budgeting. Regulators seeing Arcgis and other closed source names on your signal maps are likely to reject your application because they don’t trust it.

    Reality here MS Office 2016 for Mac is being as bad as Arcgis has been for the last 3 years.

    The reality here DrLoser is that Deaf Spy arguement is based nothing solid. Now if you are not going to audit DeafSpy you have no right to be audit me. Please note DeafSpy did not challange my claims because I guess he dug out the current FCC regulations on applications to use radio in particular areas and found out using Arcgis is currently not acceptable because it will not pass the repeatability requirement.

  7. DrLoser says:

    Serous-ally you use to have to use closed source when applying to deploy radio systems theses days use closed source leads to your application being rejected by FCC and other bodies. Why they want to be able to audit the maths behind your claims.

    This sounds like an Instant Win argument, Fifi.

    Unfortunately it is completely uncorroborated.

    I wonder why that might be?

    Fraud.

  8. Deaf Spy says:

    Unknown” in StatCounter’s parlance was once known as Android

    Perhaps, Pogson, perhaps. Though I fail to get why you put Android in the same league as desktop. Smart-thingies are not desktop, Pogson. You constantly speak of attaching displays and keyboard to an Android, but you have never ever done it yourself. Irony is that the closest-to-desktop smart technology out there is… Microsoft Continuum.

    To keep us focused on the matter at hand, i.e. the desktop, I quoted a source where no Android or mobile OSes whatsoever are present. There, Linux has the marketshare of Vista, and 10 has already 4 times the share of Linux.

    “Sad, but true”.

  9. Deaf Spy wrote, “I quote data about OS share on desktop. Android is not there.”

    “Unknown” in StatCounter’s parlance was once known as Android, so Android/Linux has about the same share as GNU/Linux and together are exceeding 3% globally.

  10. Deaf Spy says:

    There are many millions using GNU/Linux and many hundreds of millions using Android/Linux these days.

    Why do you mix apples with oranges? I quote data about OS share on desktop. Android is not there.

    Android aside, we’re left with “many millions using GNU/Linux”. Mysteriously, these millions fail to show on any global radar. Unless, Pogson, you prove with viable data that Linux has more than 2% on world’s desktop, your praising of holes in the middle of nowhere are just laughable. Because you can’t win when you start the revolution from the poor. It never works this way. Look at ex-communist countries and Russia. They tried it and just serve as an example never to do it again.

  11. oiaohm says:

    Sorry Deaf Spy browser stats don’t show Linux usage like radio tower design deployments. Linux running in virtual machines has been going on for things like radio tower deployments.

    Linux usage is up.

    http://www-e6.ijs.si/RaPlaT/GRASS-RaPlaT_main_page.htm
    I gave you this many times for a reason. Because is clear.
    — RaPlaT Virtual Applience–

    There are many fields where the host OS is becoming not very important. Like what different does it matter if you are running windows or Linux or OS X when the Linux virtual machine performing the task works on all of them. Reduced software testing.

    The reality is more and more people are having to use Linux to achieve their ends.
    You miss read this line. Having to use Linux to achieve their ends does not mean they cannot be running Windows as well.

    So what percent of those seen using Windows browsers are using Linux virtual machines as part of their general work or what percent of those Windows browser hits is Windows in a Virtual Machine.

    The reality is Webstats are not going to tell you where the future is going.

    There comes a point where you spend more time in Linux virtual machines than using Windows in some fields so you end up running Windows in the virtual machine and Linux native because that is faster.

  12. Deaf Spy prattled on about reality…

    What about Palau at 95% usage of GNU/Linux on desktops? Or Uruguay with 11% or Reunion with 8%? There are many millions using GNU/Linux and many hundreds of millions using Android/Linux these days. Why is your reality subject to tunnel-vision?

  13. Deaf Spy says:

    The reality is more and more people are having to use Linux to achieve their ends.

    Reality check

    Of course, I am fully aware that reality is a subjective phenomenon and yours is a very peculiar one. Very, very peculiar.

    Serous-ally you use to have to use closed source when applying to deploy radio systems theses days use closed source leads to your application being rejected by FCC and other bodies. Why they want to be able to audit the maths behind your claims.

    Bwahahahaha!

  14. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy sorry you are a fraud here. The reality is more and more people are having to use Linux to achieve their ends.

    You might want to claim 98 percent use windows but this is forget the rules of what is acceptable is changing.

    Serous-ally you use to have to use closed source when applying to deploy radio systems theses days use closed source leads to your application being rejected by FCC and other bodies. Why they want to be able to audit the maths behind your claims.

  15. Deaf Spy says:

    Fraud, you are so irrelevant to the topic that it hurts. Phone towers, oh dear. You are just a fraud.

  16. dougman says:

    Re: I will choose to ignore the rest out of respect of your age, Pogson.

    Is this a hint you are leaving?

  17. oiaohm says:

    http://www-e6.ijs.si/RaPlaT/GRASS-RaPlaT_main_page.htm
    DeafSpy is also what you need for USA FCC approve for tower placements.

    Radio signal propagation maths is not that simple. Sorry I do know what I am talking about.

    http://www.modsimworld.org/papers/2015/A_General_Purpose_Geospatial_Encounter_Prediction_Model_for_Border_Security.pdf

    Reality here USA Border Security uses QGIS not ArcGIS. Worse they only test their code extensions under Ubuntu Windows and OS X you are on your own.

    Things have changed in the last 3 years DeafSpy. This Encounter Prediction Model stuff use to be ArcGIS only stuff now current versions is QGIS Linux only stuff. Question now is how long will ArcGIS applications remain relevant. Please remember QGIS can use ArcGIS servers.

    Global search and rescue is going QGIS and after major disasters deploying temporary mobile phone towers effectively is important. We are also now seeing the most current version of communication tower placement software be Linux only as well.

    ArcGIS is really having the rug pulled out from under them slowly. Result is yes ArcGIS use to be able to do a list of tasks well but ArcGIS cannot any more because those features are becoming unmaintained.

    The application you have picked as a reason to use Windows is under extrema pressure DeafSpy.

    Basically out of date information DeafSpy 2 years ago you would have done 4g tower placement maths with ArcGIS not today.

  18. DeafSpy says:

    very few do

    .
    Very few here, very few there, very few everywhere, and finally we have 98% using Windows and MacOS.

    I will choose to ignore the rest out of respect of your age, Pogson. It is shameful. Almost as shameful as the blabbering of our Fraud, who is again totally irrelevant and clueless. Yes, Fifi, you are the fraud I am talking about.

  19. oiaohm says:

    Finally: is there a single FLOSS product that can do it all, and visualize the result?
    http://www.qgis.org With the correct plug-ins installed and trained operator.

    Deaf Spy yawn this is terian mapping. Does everything you said ok takes some training to know how to use it.

    Don’t need to reinvent wheel. In invention bit is already done. qgis is commonly used in global cooperating base search and rescue so that everyone can be on the same software version.

    ESRI ArcGIS is classed trash when it come to search and rescue. Deaf Spy.

    You keep on raising it as some magical win for closed source The problem with ArcGIS is that it closed source so you end up running mixed version with mixed defects causing major issues.

    http://gisgeography.com/qgis-arcgis-differences/
    qgis just is not painless all the time neither is ArcGIS.

    The choice between qgis and arcgis is
    1) the staff you have.
    2) cooperation requirements.
    3) Items you need the software to produce. Like qgis can at times produce better quality maps than arcgis can. Yes qgis can be a pain and ass with stability doing particular things but arcgis can also be unstable doing particular tasks as well.

    If you cannot work out why qgis has visibility calculation add on is search and rescue usage. So you can see areas that have not been searched yet.

    Deaf Spy 3g and 4G towers in Australia are calculated by http://www.qrap.org.za/ or by http://www-e6.ijs.si/RaPlaT/GRASS-RaPlaT_main_page.htm Guess what neither does not work under Windows or OS X its Linux only. So windows users have to virtual machine these tools. Yes this is also common around the world. Radio proliferation maths is critical to be correct.

    The reason why ArcGIS is not used 2G,3G,4G for this task is funny enough some mountains are signal reflective and ArcGIS mapping cannot take account of this. Problem with not taking account of this is that the combined signal from two or more towers being reflected and focused could put you in breach of legally allowed broad cast limits. Yes you need a radio reflectiveness GIS map as well as a visible path map.

    ArcGIS calculation mobile phone towers is rough guess for budgeting open source software for it is what you would use before final deployment.

    Currently, there is one package that does it. ESRI ArcGIS. Does it run under Linux? No.
    Basically big mother of a lie because its something ESRI ArcGIS cannot do and you have to use Linux at some point so you do all the maths required without having to reinvent the wheel.

  20. Deaf Spy wrote, “is there a single FLOSS product that can do it all, and visualize the result?”

    Who cares? I can do it all with PASCAL if need be but I don’t need to do it and very few do. Typically, there will not be a solution so they use multiple towers. That’s why they call them cell-phones, eh? The phone does the work of finding a tower.

  21. Deaf Spy says:

    Software consists of algorithms, data-structures and the like. You can make anything from FLOSS. e.g. If you have a database or spreadsheet with data, one can enter coordinates or indices to access it.

    Ok, Pogson, will you stand up to a challenge? Do me a visibility analysis algorithm for a terrain with FLOSS. You sure should have no issue finding terrain sample data, but if you do, I will gladly provide you with one. Pick a point on that terrain. Generate a raster where every visible spot is marked with 1, and every invisible – with 0. Do it with FLOSS only. You can write the algorithm in Pascal, if you find the need to.

    Finally: is there a single FLOSS product that can do it all, and visualize the result?

  22. DrLoser blathered on about Limux again, “no, they did not.
     
    The LiMux guys are on record as having found an enormous amount of duplication and wastage … but not in applications.”

    Quoting Limux:“More than 300 apps, many of them redundant, e.g. using Dreamweaver, Frontpage, Fusion etc. for HTML-editing. 21 different Windows clients, different patch levels, different security concepts. This was Munich’s IT situation when LiMux started”.

    So, which of those 300 applications were essential???

  23. DrLoser says:

    Basically if it does not bend you risk breaking machine. The problem is it currently bends then is unable to restore self. Spring mounted is the answer to this problem. I would check if the maker provided a spring loaded tail wheel as well.

    Quoted for hilarity.

  24. DrLoser wrote, “how’s your rewrite of GEBC in Pascal going, Robert?”

    I plan to work on that after hunting season, coming up in a couple of weeks. The first season is muzzle-loading for which I certainly don’t need any ballistics calculations because it’s done at pretty close range. Once winter comes back, I’ll have a lot more time to work on that. I will be doing some indoor growing of trees for next spring but that’s just a few hours per week. I won’t be gardening or walking much outdoors in winter, just the occasional clearing of snow. Last winter there was hardly any of that thanks to global warming. When I was a boy we were guaranteed to have huge drifts in the yard every winter. The last two winters, I’ve not seen anything except where an obstacle caught some snow. My grass and some seedlings died because they weren’t covered with snow.

  25. DrLoser says:

    Other times I’ve been told certain applications were essential and no one could even tell me what they did… Yes, that’s essential, alright.

    Speaking of “essential applications,” how’s your rewrite of GEBC in Pascal going, Robert?

  26. DrLoser says:

    Munich found it had way more applications than it actually needed to do the job.

    Interestingly, Robert, no, they did not.

    The LiMux guys are on record as having found an enormous amount of duplication and wastage … but not in applications.

    Care to guess where the duplication and wastage was principally found?

  27. DrLoser says:

    As far as I know all the towers here were built ages ago. Strangely, some of the first were put up in tall buildings downtown. I doubt any application was needed to figure that out…

    Do those towers have flying buttresses, Robert?
    Enquiring minds need to know.

  28. Deaf Spy wrote, “start counting the areas where professionals, semi professionals and amateurs work in. For any of it there is a commercial product, which is good, superior to the floss alternative.”

    That’s nonsense. Software consists of algorithms, data-structures and the like. You can make anything from FLOSS. e.g. If you have a database or spreadsheet with data, one can enter coordinates or indices to access it. You can do that with some specialized application or with various FLOSS tools or you can write your own. Some specialized application is not an essential feature of IT.

    I’ve designed and built a lot of stuff and used software to do it. I haven’t felt the need for any specialized application except perhaps a browser and spreadsheet ever. Munich found it had way more applications than it actually needed to do the job. There’s a reason for that. Salesmen are too glad to sell folks stuff they don’t need.

    Even if a few professionals do prefer certain specialized applications, the vast majority don’t so what the pros want is irrelevant. M$ is irrelevant if you ask me because they sold what folks could get for much less.

    When I worked as a teacher, I was confronted several times with these “essential” applications and never once found them essential because of the abundance of FLOSS. One essential application turned out to be a java application accessing a MySQL database. The thing that made it “essential”? Widespread use of “C:\\” embedded in the software… I downloaded the application, extracted the database, and had no problem using it with FLOSS tools. Other times I’ve been told certain applications were essential and no one could even tell me what they did… Yes, that’s essential, alright. [SARCASM]

  29. Deaf Spy says:

    How many are even interested in that application? One in a million?

    Please, Pogson, do not insult youself. That is a shallow statement that would put shame even on Doggie.

    I mentioned one app. Now start counting the areas where professionals, semi professionals and amateurs work in. For any of it there is a commercial product, which is good, superior to the floss alternative. For some of them there is no even a floss alternative. FLOSS alternatives are in the league of “won’t live with that” for most people. They readily pay not to live with that, but to use the best tool out there and be productive.

    Now we don’t speak of one in a million. We speak of 98% of the user base out there.

  30. Deaf Spy wrote, “ESRI ArcGIS. Does it run under Linux? No.”

    Irrelevant. How many are even interested in that application? One in a million? Perhaps not even that. As far as I know all the towers here were built ages ago. Strangely, some of the first were put up in tall buildings downtown. I doubt any application was needed to figure that out…

  31. Deaf Spy says:

    I wrote:

    But there are people who cannot live with that and who spend $$$ bucks not to live with that.

    Then I have Pogson: “That’s not true “ and JD: “Valid”. I suggest you two site together and decide on that before we discuss the validity of this point. My humble stance is that JD is right, and it is backed up by reality where commercial software is one huge industry besting many others.

    At least you both say “irrelevant”. Well, I am afraid it is relevant. Imagine an engineer who works on placing 3G network cell towers. He needs a system that:
    – Supports loading geo data;
    – Can perform certain very specific calculations on that geo data. In this case: visibility analysis (available FLOSS tools can’t do it properly or even at all).
    – Can run some certain very specific algorithms, like finding optimal positioning of these towers (available FLOSS tools can’t do it at all).
    – Can provide 3D view of the terrain with results to allow the engineer to fine tune the results based on other important factors like price, infrastructure availability, etc. (available FLOSS tools can’t do it unless you make a transition of your data and run external crappy tools with miserable performance and features).

    Currently, there is one package that does it. ESRI ArcGIS. Does it run under Linux? No.

    Therefore, dear fellas, your claim for irrelevancy is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter whether Linux needs fixing. It doesn’t matter if Linux is available in stores (and it is). Linux doesn’t run ESRI ArcGIS without heavy fixing using Wine, which would cost the poor engineer much more than petty $100 to just get it running with Next-Next-Run.

    There are people who cannot live with that and who spend $$$ bucks not to live with that.

  32. JD says:

    But there are people who cannot live with that and who spend $$$ bucks not to live with that.

    Valid point, but irrelevant. The question isn’t about people who go out and buy Windows because it meets their needs. It is about people who are forced to buy Windows because they don’t have a choice on the store shelf. You know, those same people who pick an Android phone every time even when there is a Windows phone with a steep discount sitting right next to it on the shelf.

  33. Deaf Spy wrote, “there are people who cannot live with that and who spend $$$ bucks not to live with that. They go out and buy a Mac, or a Windows PC, and they buy their favourite software. Because they do not what to live with that.”

    That’s not true and not relevant. Users don’t need to “fix” GNU/Linux. They can just use it as is. There are IT people and developers fixing and changing stuff in FLOSS. There are likely dozens of ordinary users for every tweaker. It’s point, click and gawk for most. Even The Little Woman just uses it. It works for her. I Don’t think I ever heard a student complain that the couldn’t get stuff done with GNU/Linux. One or a few teachers objected to change but they managed.

  34. Deaf Spy says:

    The seat is a “nice to have”, not an “essential”, and I can’t blame the designer for my combination of soil and weight. The tiller shreds clay without a whimper but when I turn the tail-wheel it goes sideways and bends. It’s designed for normal gardens, not this stuff which I have to convert into soil by repeated cultivation/growing. Things are going to plan, but not on the time-scale. I can live with that.

    Thanks for this one, Pogson. It very clearly demonstrates your attitude. You “can live with that”. Good. It is your life.

    You need to realize that there are people who cannot live with that and who spend $$$ bucks not to live with that.

    The same goes to Linux on desktop and FLOSS (LO and all). You “can live with that”. But there are people who cannot live with that and who spend $$$ bucks not to live with that. They go out and buy a Mac, or a Windows PC, and they buy their favourite software. Because they do not what to live with that.

  35. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson
    If they have to be disassembled, you can’t just do it in the field very easily.
    This is true its not exactly easy. But at times with large trackers you don’t have a choice either. When they break they can be basically impossible to move without disassembly. To disassemble you need the same kit as to assemble.

    It requires a big shop with a high ceiling and lifting equipment.
    This is close but not correct for Australia I suspect Canada might be true. We have semi-trailer based field service setups. Those contain a few triangular based lifting frames(like over sized repraps that you build over tractor) and a tent you put over the complete thing. With road permits and everything else to move a large tractor its cheaper to assemble a workshop at delivery location.

    I guess Canada with snow and bears ruin the idea of a tent based workshop that can be dissembled and put on a single trailer. Also there are weight and size limits on roads in Australia as well. So over X weight or size you cannot get permit to move it along some roads. Yes no point selling a product if you cannot deliver it.

    For those that don’t know a tail wheels hold on bolts on farm gear is classed as a consumable item. Its nothing uncommon for them to have weak mountings. Even if you by a JD slasher if you break the tail wheels off they are not covered under warranty as long as it only the bolts that break(yes pure pain in but to remove) worse if you have lost a wheel someone you have to buy another one(good for their profits) yes JD sells spring loaded as optional add on. So tail wheels is a item no matter who you buy from has a habit of being absolutely trash in stock. We normally end up replace them with a spring loaded type so they give when they hit something hard and only require a kick to put them back in place but the default is bolted on with thin bolts that snap.

    Robert Pogson
    The tail wheel’s on a very slim screw too.
    I would not say so. Its designed to fail at that point to prevent damage to other areas of the machine. If you stop it from failing at that point you will cause other issues. So you need to design tail wheel that operational without exceeding the strength of those screws. Spring of some form is the common solution so the wheel takes up the impact instead of the machine.

    The seat can also require springs again it so reduced amount of force is exposed to the machine..

    The chair issue is something with Chinese items. Max user weight is presumed to be 80KG in lots of Chinese stuff unless you special order.

    Normal people (or, in your quixotic parlance, “slaves”) do not buy a product that needs wholesale re-engineering, Robert. They buy something that “just works.” Out of the box.
    DrLoser you have never worked on farms. The sad reality is almost nothing you buy for a farm is perfect out the box for all conditions. The default farm gear is normally designed for perfect conditions. Roberts ground is not what you call perfect conditions. Perfect conditions is land that has been farmed for over 100 years. People with land that is classed as perfect conditions don’t need spring loaded wheels or heavily spring loaded seats.

    Once you have a little adverse conditions you have to change some parts to deal with it. Robert is not a little adverse is very adverse conditions thinking at times it could be frozen solid.

    If case like the seat/tail wheel/blade that are not core parts failing these are fixable. Problem is if it a gearbox or engine… these are not fixable by minor alterations.

    I would say Roberts got the right machine just not the right after market parts for his conditions now.

    The tiller shreds clay without a whimper but when I turn the tail-wheel it goes sideways and bends.
    This is you need spring loaded wheel. The clay is putting too much resistance on the wheel and the wheel cannot turn (the grove in the clay) so it bends. So it fails so it does not damage the machine. This is normally not a issue on a 100 year old farm land. Spring loaded can be replacement the bit that bends with the same resistance strength in spring steel. On bigger gear we have used leaf spring. I don’t know if you would have any leaf spring light enough.

    Basically if it does not bend you risk breaking machine. The problem is it currently bends then is unable to restore self. Spring mounted is the answer to this problem. I would check if the maker provided a spring loaded tail wheel as well.

  36. DrLoser wrote, ” you have been sold a pup here”.

    Yes, it would be better if the thing were perfect, but I didn’t buy it because it was warm and fuzzy. I bought it because it was tougher and more economical than available alternatives. The seat is a “nice to have”, not an “essential”, and I can’t blame the designer for my combination of soil and weight. The tiller shreds clay without a whimper but when I turn the tail-wheel it goes sideways and bends. It’s designed for normal gardens, not this stuff which I have to convert into soil by repeated cultivation/growing. Things are going to plan, but not on the time-scale. I can live with that. I’m retired and like to do things. My life is wonderful now that I never have to “fix” that other OS.

  37. Dr Loser wrote, “Outside your price range”.

    It already has power steering, but without the tail-wheel working, it’s Boolean rather than proportional. This adds excitement, especially on a slope where controls reverse because of the weight driving the undriven wheel… What I’d like to add is some kind of tiller I could control while walking behind, rather than sitting on it. That’s just a shaft of steel perhaps with a wooden handle, something I can easily afford and manufacture. OK, it’s not suitable for anyone’s grandmother but it is manageable and it does the job. I haven’t used 20L of fuel yet and it’s done much of my yard. Compared to the $thousands, landscapers quote, I’m having fun. I’m also going to buy an alternator+inverter I can couple to the engine to power my home in case of a long power failure which we get every year or two. This thing can run 1500h before needing major repair.

  38. DrLoser says:

    As for “power steering?”
    Outside your price range, I suspect. And almost certainly outside your engineering competence.

  39. DrLoser says:

    That whole arrangement needs re-engineering.

    Normal people (or, in your quixotic parlance, “slaves”) do not buy a product that needs wholesale re-engineering, Robert. They buy something that “just works.” Out of the box.
    Not something that requires you, basically, to sit on a spike.
    Not something with a wobbly wheel.
    Not something that has a clearly insane measurement for both the tail wheel strut and the screw holding it in place. I have no idea of the quality of the steel involved (although I can guess), so I cannot speak to either the kMod or the gammaM, and obviously without a proper structural model I can hardly speak to either the shear forces or to the tension perp (actually, tension perp should be okay for SLS although not necessarily for ULS) or to the rip-out.
    What I can say is that you have been sold a pup here.
    Welcome to the engineering equivalent of the Wonderful World of FLOSS!

  40. dougman wrote, “Won’t support your weight?”

    Nope. The seat’s on a 1″ thin tube, much like a child’s tricycle. I bent it, repaired it and won’t sit on it again. The tail wheel’s on a very slim screw too. That whole arrangement needs re-engineering. The tube should be ~2″ thick and the screw should be doubled in diameter too. It doesn’t help that my soil is heavy so steering forces can be large. In nice loam it would work much better. Walking behind would work if it weren’t for the seat being in the way and the hail of stones and lumps. The skirt barely slows them down, hence the shin-protectors. It’s quite awkward but I enjoy the violence it does to weeds. It’s “the nuclear option”. The machine travels about 2km/h at full throttle and the tiller rotates at ~250 rpm.. I thought I might be in “high” range but I wasn’t. In high I have to jog to keep up… The previous tiller crept at 0.5 km/h and was half the width. This one needs power steering and better depth-control to be absolutely wonderful. A “dead man” control might be good. This thing could kill me and hunt down the neighbours, like something in a horror movie.

  41. dougman says:

    Won’t support your weight? What do you weigh a 500lbs?

  42. oiaohm wrote, “a person who says you will always buy a tractor locally for local support basically has no clue.”

    Yes, in Canada, the folks who give “local” support might be 300 miles away. You have a choice of shipping the tractor or paying a tech to spend a day travelling plus doing the work. Anyway, tractors may be huge. If they have to be disassembled, you can’t just do it in the field very easily. It requires a big shop with a high ceiling and lifting equipment. Once upon a time I welded in a tractor-factory. The engine-frame was as large as my present tractor. In the factory, everything was too heavy for humans to move. Forklifts and overhead cranes were everywhere. That’s not “local” support…

    Basically, if anything major broke on my tractor, the best choice would be to order parts direct from the factory and reassemble it myself. Imagine months of delay unless I used air-freight. Freight would likely exceed the cost of the part by a wide margin. That’s why I bought really rugged stuff.

    Been using the machine a bit this week preparing for a new lawn. Because the seat won’t support my weight, I’ve had to walk behind it with shin-guards. It’s still amazingly fast. What used to take multiple hours takes only one. What I spent on the assembly will be recovered on usage in a few years. I’m still ahead of the game. What I need is The Little Woman to step up and drive the thing… Still “no” is her answer to that suggestion… 😉 I’m working on the son but he’s still working overtime, looking for a wife and partying at other times… The world doesn’t slow down even though I do.

  43. Deaf Spy says:

    For whatever reason, there are people out there who would prefer to build an inferior product…</

    I know the reason. It is called fun. It has happened to me, too. Sometimes I would waste some hours of my time to achieve something that would come cheaper if I were working during these hours. But then I exchange fun for money. The labour supply curve kicks in.

    However, common folks are perfectly aware that by substituting productive hours for leisure hours they produce inferior products. And they do not hide it. They just enjoy the fun.

    Now, Pogson’s problem is that he tries to persuade us that the product of his leisure hours is superior. If he is truly sincere then perhaps his productivity is, hm, well, it leaves a lot to be desired of.

  44. oiaohm says:

    Really I find it funny that a idiot said just use a ox. I grew up using Oxen for particular tasks. Selective logging. It takes about 3 months to confirm that you and a team of Oxen will work with each other safely. Yes Oxen can have personality conflicts. 100 hours of investment in a kit tractor is way simpler than the pricks Oxen can be.

    DrLoser if you go back Robert did look at all the pre-built options. A kit tractor is still built to specs.

    Did you miss http://mrpogson.com/2015/09/26/price-one-measure-of-lock-in/#comment-319604 by dougman.

    Even if you buy a pre-built tractor for a farm you normal end up having to change/fix things. Now the pre-builts Robert had were too weak in gearing and other areas so failing in unrepairable ways.

    Now its not like Robert went for something like this.
    http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/LifeTrac_5
    Yes the life size meccano kit solution. LifeTrac stuff is kind going exotic.

    In Australia here we have USA, Russia, EU and Chinese tractors and some custom Australian stuff. Yes is nothing strange to required to have to pay someone to make translated copy of a manual for the Russia and Chinese stuff. Narrow and compact tractors the best built of those are Chinese. Best huge tractors USA. Best tractors will prebuilt in rollcage is Russian yes serous-ally strong that they can flip upside down and they don’t crush. Yes these are still tractors. EU do more mid sized tractors.

    The issue is volume of that type of tractor used in the area they are designed in. China with India and japan use more compact size tractors than anything else. USA due to land layout uses more large scale tractors than anything else. Russia due to snow melts causing soil stability problems and other issues the odds of flipping a tractor is a lot higher so focus on solid rollcage even if it costs you in fuel usage.

    Some China brands have Australia dealers. For what Robert got and assembled himself it was possible to order here by dealer and it funny. So you order by dealer the kit is delivered and they send out a team to assemble it for your and inspect it. By shipping compact tractors dissembled you fit at least 3 into the space of 2 assembled. Result is you end up with a kit tractor once you start wanting good quality compacts.

    The fun part is a person who says you will always buy a tractor locally for local support basically has no clue. Depending on what you are doing and where you are the local supplied tractors might be totally not suitable for task.

    Please note you don’t need todo a single weld to make a tractor. Bolt assembled beasts exist Yes the lifting frame could have been done completely bolt assembled if you did not have confidence welding. Due to per-drilled steel you don’t even have to drill a hole. This is what people don’t get.

    Kit/prebuild are both sane options for tractors.

  45. DrLoser says:

    Out of mild interest, Robert, have you ever heard of David Ricardo?
    An old mucker of mine. He had a sense of humour. He would find your “thesis” hilarious.

  46. DrLoser says:

    I wonder why don’t you get an ox? It will need no welding.

    The question … is the answer, Deaf Spy.
    For whatever reason, there are people out there who would prefer to build an inferior product, over several hundred hours, using the sweat of their own brow, rather than buy an ox. Of course, such a person could just buy a pre-built tractor with a warranty and welds in all the right places, but that wouldn’t be nearly as much fun.
    Does it matter that the non-ox amateur-weld tractor with hundreds of pointless hours invested in not quite getting it right will never be as good as the slightly more expensive professional version?
    Of course not. The slightly more professional version is slavery.

  47. DrLoser says:

    That supports my thesis, actually.

    Let me make this as plain as I can, Robert.
    You do not have a thesis.

  48. DrLoser says:

    I am a man of tolerance and I like to help my misguided friends, Robert, so I’ll give you an “out” on this fixation of yours.
    Let us stipulate that olderman is causing untold harm by supporting TOOS and helping their so-called “productivity suites” proliferate. A very reasonable position for you to take.
    Under that stipulation, it is fair to call olderman a nasty sneaky money-grubbing two-faced immoral marketroid … I may have missed the odd insult here and there, and you are free to add more.
    To call olderman a “slave driver” under that stipulation is, frankly, bonkers.

  49. DrLoser says:

    The problem with slavery is that it is invisible if you are born into it, live it and die in it.

    Actually, the “problem with slavery” is that it is invariably a system imposed by armed thugs on defenseless minorities and/or the losers in warfare. Let’s sample a few cases:

    1) Ancient Greek slavery. Better than being part of a massacre immediately after battle, but not much. (I’ll leave the Helots to one side for now.)
    2) Roman slavery. Basically the same deal.
    3) Arabian or Caliphate (pick Caliphate of choice) slavery. Basically the same deal.
    4) West African slavery. Now, this one is interestingly different. If your tribe, say in the 18th or 19th century, say somewhere up the Niger, is conquered by another tribe, you end up as a slave. Which isn’t actually so bad in an agrarian society. What makes it awful is that you are then sold on to the Portuguese, the Danish, the Dutch, the French and the British (roughly in order) and shipped to the West Indies to share-crop sugar cane and die of Yellow Fever.
    Which is not nice, not nice at all.
    Obviously there are other historical cases of slavery. I could bring up the Mayan or Aztec empires, if you wish.
    But there’s a common denominator in all of them.
    Even if you are born into it, live it and die in [the slavery system], it is not invisible
    And quite frankly, if you offered a Greek slave, a Roman slave, a Mayan or Aztec slave, a Nigerian slave, or even a Saudi Arabian slave … not, of course, that the modern day permits such a thing … the chance of buying their way out for the price of a Microsoft Office license, which is roughly $100 or so …
    … Said slave would bite your hand off at the opportunity.
    Please give up on this cretinous analogy, Robert. You evidently know nothing of slavery. Your analogy is prima facie absurd and serves only to demean you.

  50. olderman wrote, “The bigger problem problem is that we are not slaves just because you say so”.

    That supports my thesis, actually. olderman donates all kinds of $free labour to M$ annually, propping up M$’s empire, wasting his time “fixing” TOOS so the users will feel OK.

    An example… Suppose M$ introduces some “new feature” to lock in users. olderman gladly sees that it’s installed for all users. For years afterward, olderman also updates all those installations for the vulnerabilities introduced. All that work is just waste to olderman’s organization because the original feature was of little or no value, perhaps even negative, and the cost is far more than the total cost of licensing paid to M$ for the feature. In particular, I can think of M$’s file/print sharing system. How many attacks and intrusions and malware over the years have exploited that? How many critical vulnerabilities had to be “fixed”, repeatedly to deal with that? Meanwhile users of FLOSS use openSSH and NFS with few problems file-sharing and CUPS with few problems printing… So, the value of M$’s overly complex system was negative and the ongoing cost of keeping it working is infinite, if olderman keeps it going forever. That’s slavery.

    Other examples: autostart, the registry, layers and layers of software based on the registry, M$’s server software which largely is designed to prop up the desktop units which can’t do much without it thanks to the EULA,…

    olderman may feel he has M$ under his control for his organization but when you multiply the effort expended per machine/user by the more than one billion instances globally, it’s a crime against humanity, of a scale beyond belief organized by a single entity. Even Hitler was content to limit harm to millions. M$ exceeds that by several orders of magnitude.

    Clearly, the real cost of an OS per desktop in these days of global connectivity can be measured and it is ~$10. That M$ charges $hundreds and the slaves contribute $hundreds more in $free labour to M$, the cost of slavery is enormous, exceeding the GDP of most countries.

  51. olderman says:

    “The problem with slavery is that it is invisible if you are born into it, live it and die in it.”

    The bigger problem problem is that we are not slaves just because you say so, Robert Pogson.

    But keep up with the insults of the people that you would hope to convince. You do a great job of sounding like some tinfoil hat wearing kook!

  52. dougman says:

    For $2500, I can buy a brand new tiller for my JD tractor. The tiller/tractor arrangement that Robert owns is far superior then any Troy-Bilt POS.

    Check out all the bad reviews: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/troy_bilt.html

    Want a nice tiller? Get a Mantis.

    I think Oldman is just genuinely butthurt that his Windows 10 always has problems, and he does not have the capital to buy a new toy like Robert owns.

    Oldman also takes to issue about 100+ hours to assemble the machine, actually that only averages out to 12.5 days, which is not a lot. For example, I spent way more time on my JD tractor fixing things, welding, adding lights, working on the MFWD this year. She may not be pretty like all the newer machines, but it has more metal and is easy to repair and pulls decently.

    I suspect OLDman doesn’t even own a garage or knows how to use common tolls. *snicker*

    Eh.

  53. oiaohm says:

    LibreOffice for ChromeOS come on DeafSpy MS Office is only cloud provide to ChromeOS. Libreoffice on ChromeOS you have crouton and install a debian/Ubuntu/what ever Linux distribution you like to have it or cloud provide by rollapp.com. There are tones of tutorials on doing crouton on Chromeos.

    Libreoffice for Android that is trickier.

    The big thing coming in Libreoffice is Libreoffice online. What is a version of Libreoffice design to run from private servers to clients using browsers.

    AndrOpen Office what is OpenOffice based runs on Android. So there is absolutely no reason for Libreoffice project to rush port to Android.

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/LibreOffice-for-Android-Preview-Now-Lets-You-Edit-Documents-479052.shtml

    –I can only find a viewer, but nothing that even resembles a complete and fully functional office suit.–

    Did not read the specs did you. The android Libreoffice preview current does include limited editing so is not just a viewer. Correct wording would have been a complete viewer with limited editing. Of course the refactor for Libreoffice online will increase the functionality Android libreoffice will have.

    — Which still lacks an analogue of Outlook.–
    True but I am not sure you want a analogue to Outlook with its long history of security holes and solution incompatibility.

    I am not exactly sure Libreoffice needs Outlook like email client as this is most likely reinventing wheel.

    Libreoffice and kontact work extremely well with each other if someone has bothered to configure libreoffice base connection to kde-pim. Then you also have Thunderbird.

    Munich is planing to use kontact in combination with Libreoffice on Windows and Linux.

    Choice of thunderbird or kontact with Libreoffice mostly comes down to what groupware/crm server solution are you using. kolab groupware you are going to be better off with kontact as both products are developed by the same developers. Sogo you can be better of with thunderbird or outlook. Then some of the CRM its thunderbird because the outlook plugins no longer work in current versions of outlook.

    Lets say Libreoffice did decide with ship with a email client built in next thing you would be complaining it does not work with the require groupware well enough. Reality Outlook suxs with kolab and many others. Then thunderbird and kontact don’t work perfectly with everything but what one does not work with the other does most of the time.

    The lack of analogue to Outlook is another bogus bit of crap Trolls bring up. The reality is Outlook does not work with huge number of solutions. Its completely unlikely that one Email client can in fact suite all the different solutions of groupware and crm due to all the differences. Libreoffice maintaining compatibility with the 2 most compatible email solutions and let the user choose what one fits is the sane thing todo. The question I would ask is there any other email clients that Libreoffice should add compatibility with that are free.

    This is also the problem with onenote depending on company setup onenote like program can be your worst nightmare you are meant to be using the CRM note tracking functionality. There is a serous question how big a Office suite should be. Not like there are not alternatives to onenote.

    Kde basket is designed to solve a different problem to onenote.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_notetaking_software

    Go have a good read. Open-Sankoré at times can be way better than onenote. Lack of local storage of the information on OS X does becomes a problem with onenote.

    Depending on the rules and regulations MS Office products can become a nightmare.

  54. dougman wrote, “why do people put up with the nonsense?”

    M$’s version of slavery:

    1. achieve monopoly by exclusive dealing beginning in the 1980s, and
    2. put all kinds of crap about slavery being OK in the EULA…

    The problem with slavery is that it is invisible if you are born into it, live it and die in it. That’s IT in many places these days, M$ creates some nonsense to strengthen enslavement and the world demands local IT-people make it work… Just look at the EULA. If pencils, paper, electrical power, tires, or any other commodity came with such conditions the world would just buy elsewhere. It’s absolutely insane to allow a single USAian corporation to control everyone’s IT.

  55. Deaf Spy wrote, “OneNote is great for education.”

    A name doesn’t sell itself. I encountered an educational application once. The instructor said it was compulsory. I took the time to find out what it did. It simulated a web-server so students could create a website and send a datafile to the instructor who could simulate the website on her copy. Instead I set up a real web-server and gave the instructor the URI. I got an A. Another compulsory application created a graphic showing relationships amongst concepts. I used Freemind to do the same. I got an A. Heck, I used GNU/Linux when TOOS was compulsory. So, what’s essential about such applications when they run on commodity hardware doing standard things to devices like screens and keyboards? Just tell me what an application does and I can do it with FLOSS or not. Munich found they did not need most of their licensed applications. They were paying for them but not using them…

  56. Deaf Spy says:

    Ask the authour what it does.
    No, no. You claimed that with LO folks can be just as productive as with MSO, perhaps even more so. I just gave you a list of three tools that LO lacks.

    OneNote is great for education. You may not know it. It doesn’t mean it is not good. You see, before tractors people were using oxen and were perfectly satisfied with them. I wonder why don’t you get an ox? It will need no welding.

  57. olderman wrote, “A FOSSTard cheapskate.”

    Thank you for your kind words.

  58. olderman wrote, “which had a local vendor’s support behind it”.

    I don’t know any local vendor for such machines. The closest you have would be John Deere, and they start at ~14K… too much for me. This machine fits my budget and needs. I’m planting a new lawn this year and new garden every year. It’s not a postage-stamp yard. The time, “wasted” was useful work done in my off-season, the winter. The machine arrived in January and I had it working in May, when I needed it. Now that I’m more familiar with it, I will use it a lot more.

  59. olderman says:

    “Now, I admit docs for my monster were sparse and it took much longer than it should have because of weather, wrong parts and such but I have a durable machine which will outlast me. ”

    So what! you wasted 100+ hours by your own admission, and your “durable” machine still required you to spot weld it in order to make it work. All to save money. Even IF you needed to get the $5K tiller, you would have been up and running in a fraction of the time, with the value of 100 yours of your time in your pocket and a tiller that was not only as good, but which had a local vendor’s support behind it.

    In the end what I find particularly ironic is that you defend your do-it-yourself choices while refusing to accept those of others who have no problems plunking down their cash for software that gets their jobs done to their satisfaction.

    And BTW, Comparing troybuilt with modern day sears is laughable – you can do better.

  60. olderman says:

    “I introduced GNU/Linux and FLOSS to thousands. Only a very few were not amazed by the quality and quantity of software available on client and server compared to XP on thick clients.”

    Only a very few, eh. Could that be those who new better about what they were seeing?
    being a one eyed man in the land of the blind does not qualify you as anything. And
    your ancient experience in a resource starved isolated area really means nothing to the vast majorityt who do not face that situation. Actually your your ad hominem attacks on the majority of windows users and indeed anyone who does not as follow your “true” path as “slaves” do much more to mark you as who you are.

    A FOSSTard cheapskate.

  61. Deaf Spy wrote, “where is the Linux version of OneNote?”

    Ask the authour what it does. Ask the authour why he/she/they made it for a single OS. That’s cripple-ware. I’ve never heard of OneNote, let alone been locked in to it. I make notes all the time, on the web, in databases, spreadsheet and other documents and I can have them all indexed and instantly located.

  62. oldman wrote, “What you miss means nothing for anyone but you.”

    I introduced GNU/Linux and FLOSS to thousands. Only a very few were not amazed by the quality and quantity of software available on client and server compared to XP on thick clients. Many times, I helped a teacher meet some particular need in seconds: no purchase order requisition, no delays, it just worked for them.

    See TroyBilt’s biggest machine. $2500 and it’s just a toy compared to my monster.

    TroyBilt Chinese
    20″ width 24″
    305cc gasoline engine 903cc diesel
    shipping wt. 389lb 1100lb
    forward speed ? forward speed 2km/h

    I just tilled 0.2 acre for planting grass. It took longer to check the fluids than to do the deed.

    A more comparable machine is the Grillo G131 Diesel Tractor, listed at $5900, so, I was paid for my labour and my monster has a few more horsepower.

    Now, I admit docs for my monster were sparse and it took much longer than it should have because of weather, wrong parts and such but I have a durable machine which will outlast me. My Sears tiller lasted 1 year to each of two transmission failures. My land is tough. My tiller can handle it.

    A side benefit of the assembly of the tractor was a lifting frame designed for 1000lb. I’m using it to distribute boulders The Little Woman bought by the truckload. She thinks they are beautiful and I’m saving a bundle by being able to lift them onto my wagon by myself. Out of the whole pile, all but 3 or 4 I can handle. The rest, I may cut in two or leave where they are as a monument to her empire…

  63. olderman says:

    “I miss nothing and I have freedom too.”

    What you miss means nothing for anyone but you. But then as someone who has become addicted to getting something for nothing, you have a vested interest in doing all you can to trumpet its joys.

    The next time you dismiss the rest of the computing world that does not use FOSS exclusively as slaves, I suggest you look in the mirror. Only a slave to cheapness wastes 100+ hours plus trying to get its “inexpensive” Chinese tractor to work.

    The rest of us “slaves” simply go out and buy from someone like
    http://www.troybilt.com/equipment/troybilt/tillers

    Then again, its all good.

  64. Deaf Spy says:

    Those “parts” are not missing at all. With GNU/Linux and FLOSS applications, I can create, find, modify and distribute all kinds of documents, content, services… I miss nothing and I have freedom too.

    Nice chant, Pogson. But where is the Linux version of OneNote? Or a decent alternative to it? KDE’s Basket looks like OneNote’s retarded little distant cousin conceived in incest. Mind you, OneNote is free. You can download it for free.

    I am more free than you are, Pogson. I do not limit myself to a single OS. I use many, including Linux, when I need it. And I am free to choose the best tool among them all for what I need. It is you who limits yourself and enslaves yourself to our Linux fetish.

  65. Deaf Spy wrote, “the missing parts like OneNote, Outlook, and Access”.

    Many organizations have rules requiring specs list capabilities, not trademarks… There’s a reason for that. Those “parts” are not missing at all. With GNU/Linux and FLOSS applications, I can create, find, modify and distribute all kinds of documents, content, services… I miss nothing and I have freedom too. Even M$ depends on Linux these days. What are they missing?

  66. Deaf Spy wrote, ” “Android” was never, ever mentioned.”

    Oh, perhaps it’s assumed these days. I checked Samsung and they refer to “64-bit OS” and “Lollipop”, you know just like M$… The manual does mention Android several times. The file name includes “Lollipop”. So, while Android may not be prominently displayed nor explained in any detail, it’s not hidden away. You can do that when your market share is huge.

    PS… Just stumbled upon this ad for S6:“Operating System Android 5.0 Lollipop”. Advertisers may legitimately differ on what they think consumers want. They put stuff out there and see how it works for them.

  67. Deaf Spy says:

    Android/Linux is kicking butt.

    This morning, sipping at my tea, I watched CNN. An ad caught my attention. Samsung’s S6. You know what, Pogson? “Android” was never, ever mentioned. But, good few expensive seconds were dedicated to the fact that S6 run MS Office and worked with MS Office documents.

    I guess Samsung are contributing to slavery. 🙂

  68. Deaf Spy says:

    Productivity defined as (output-input)/input sure looks a lot better when input is very small as it is with FLOSS.

    Well, somehow this doesn’t seem to work for Office suits and desktop OSes. Perhaps you do wrong maths, Pogson. Again, in Economics, there is a thing called “marginal value”. Definitely worth looking up.

    Btw, you still avoid the missing parts like OneNote, Outlook, and Access. While the latter two are not necessarily useful for a teacher, OneNote definitely is. Outlook is an absolute must within a municipality. Access is great for a small business which wants fancy reports and forms to enter data, not spreadsheets.

  69. Deaf Spy wrote, “As productive? Perhaps. More so? Not until you have a proof for that.”

    Productivity defined as (output-input)/input sure looks a lot better when input is very small as it is with FLOSS. Say you’re a teacher and you pay M$ ~$100 for an OS and $200 for an office suite to do your work. Actually, that’s a tax on the hardware the teacher owns. The teacher has to work for $free for a couple of days to pay that tax. OTOH, with LibreOffice on GNU/Linux, the teacher works for $free for a fraction of an hour and gets to be productive immediately. Do that for a school, a village, a city, a region, a country, a continent, the world… and you affect the GDP of a sizable country. Of course productivity is higher with FLOSS. Do the maths.

  70. Deaf Spy says:

    It may come as a shock to some but folks don’t invest in M$’s office suite. They pay for their own enslavement.

    That is an unfortunate way to persuade people, Pogson. You can’t do that by throwing insults in their face. Insulting people only makes you look ugly.

    Folks are just as productive with LibreOffice, perhaps more so.

    As productive? Perhaps. More so? Not until you have a proof for that. Anyway, where is your list of most popular functions folks use? Where is your comparison chart for how these functions are handled in MSO / LO? Where are your use case scenarios and demonstration that they work well in both packages? For your information, MS have a huge amount of metrics how people do use their software. Do LO designers have such? But to start with: where is the LO analogue for Outlook, Access and OneNote?

  71. dougman says:

    Speaking of lock-in, read this: http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/computers/item/21586-microsoft-forces-windows-10-upgrade-even-when-users-refuse-it

    The comment made by Asok Asus and the process required just to roll-back to Windows 7 really makes M$ look like a POS.

  72. dougman says:

    “the registry was corrupted within weeks, and the system was down. After blaming the kids for infecting the machine, he took the necessary precautions by adding Malware, and replacing Outlook with Eudora email. However, the problem persisted, the registry was corrupted again. The system was reloaded again. Finally, a call to Microsoft Support was made and they demanded $69 to answer the phone. After paying the support costs, they said the problem had been reported and fixed in SP1, which would be available in 6 months or so.”

    Yep, this all sounds so similar.

    https://opensource.com/life/15/9/my-linux-story-mr-b

  73. dougman says:

    Linux offers no lock-in, so it’s a zero net cost to me and countless millions of others in the world.

    Libreoffice for ChromeOS? Sure thing: https://www.rollapp.com/apps/office

    Regarding Android, who writes documents on a smartphone or tablet? Only DeafGuy would want such a thing; I prefer my Chromebook thank you.

  74. Deaf Spy wrote, “how much people are ready to invest to improve their efficiency”.

    It may come as a shock to some but folks don’t invest in M$’s office suite. They pay for their own enslavement. Folks are just as productive with LibreOffice, perhaps more so. Why are Largo, Italian military, Munich, etc. using LibreOffice if not for productivity?

  75. Deaf Spy says:

    It might come as a great surprise for you, Pogson, but price is, among others, an indicator of the marginal value of the product. In simple words (which even our fraud Fifi and our brain-dead fellow Dougie would understand): how much people are ready to invest to improve their efficiency.

    That might explain to you why people are eager to pay money to Microsoft.

    Btw, I didn’t wish to spoil your enthusiasm, but where can I download LibreOffice for ChromeOS or Android from? I can only find a viewer, but nothing that even resembles a complete and fully functional office suit. Which still lacks an analogue of Outlook.

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