GNU/Linux In The British Commonwealth

No, StatCounter does not have that category, but I did download data for every country in the list of 54 countries which are members. The results are mixed. The mean share by country is 1.16%. However, if you weight shares by population, the mean share is 1.54%, mostly thanks to India with 1.95% share and a huge population…
Country
India
Bangladesh
Nigeria
United Kingdom
Pakistan
Kenya
Canada
Uganda
South Africa
Tanzania
Pop. (M)
1269
158
183
64
189
46
35.7
34.9
54
47.4
GNU/Linux(%)
1.95
1.08
0.66
1.47
0.47
1.9
2.29
2.18
1.18
1.31
weighted_share
24.7
1.7
1.2
.94
.89
.89
.82
.76
.64
.62


The total population amounts to 2.317billion people. The population-weighted share comes to 35.6million people. To be fair, countries like India have very low rates of connection to the Internet but that is changing rapidly and many millions are using GNU/Linux and Android/Linux today. The Commonwealth, being connected with English may be sampled with less bias than countries with other languages and suggests that a good part of the world has left ~1% behind. In March 2010, India was at 1.15%.
Kenya was very high then and has declined but is still doing well. Also, Android/Linux has taken a lot of traffic in Kenya.

According to StatCounter, their data should not be used this way but the approach is reasonable. It suggests that globally, we are near ~100million people using GNU/Linux assuming other countries follow these trends. If the number of users doubles in the next five years the world will be a very different place. The high rates of growth in India and Europe suggest this is very likely sooner rather than later. It’s all good. Freedom is coming to the ordinary person using IT.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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253 Responses to GNU/Linux In The British Commonwealth

  1. oldfart says:

    “I’m not “Adam King”. But what does it matter?”

    Not much. It just means that there is more than one whining twerp wasting digital ink on the internet.

  2. DrLoser says:

    I’ still waiting for the Childrens’ Crusade against the Ubuntu Tax, by the way.
    Obviously it is going to take a while to produce the scarlet banners and the marching song. And possibly even longer to get the likes of Jim Zemlin on board.
    But just give us a hint, Robert.
    When are you going to start complaining about the Ubuntu Tax?

  3. DrLoser says:

    Sigh. Such ignorance for a troll…
    “GDP is the standard measure of the value of final goods and services produced by a country during a period minus the value of imports.”

    Measured as a monetary quantity, Robert. In dollars. Or a convertible version thereof. One of us is ignorant of basic economics, but that one is not I.

    Ask the Saudis what GDP means with them pumping 10million barrels a day for less money. Their production has been about the same for the last several years while the price of oil plunged.

    Leaving aside your bizarre characterisation of the oil market over the last ten years or so, Robert, this is a complete irrelevancy.

    Nobody cares what “GDP” means to the Saudis, any more or any less than anybody cares what the electron voltage of the Higgs Boson means to the Saudis.

    Both are measurements, Robert. Both are extrinsic to whatever the Saudis choose to believe.

    What on earth is your point?

  4. DrLoser says:

    Whilst on the topic of acting like a flibbertigibbet, Robert:

    If Red Hat are now “officially naughty in the Eyes of the Lord,” what about Novell? Are they officially naughty too?

    Given the fact that Novell (SLED SuSE) are responsible for about 75% of the enterprise Linux servers that are not run on Naughty Reprehensible Red Hat Linux, you might want to consider your response very carefully indeed.

  5. DrLoser says:

    Not so. It’s sad those who have eyes but fail to see. Check out these stats. They show folks are more likely to use GNU/Linux at work than at play in some places.

    Oh, I’m bowled over by a blocky little chart showing 2% Linux coverage in India, Robert.

    That obviously makes your point about commercial uptake of Debian or Ubuntu.

    Have you taken your mid-day nap yet? You’ll feel invigorated if you do. A big mug of cocoa wouldn’t go remiss, either.

  6. LinuxGentlesir says:

    I’m talking about IT that requires a whole bunch of external organizations to sing in unison before IT can be upgraded. M$, Oracle, RedHat, ISVs are all part of that.

    I agree. Imagine if Google’s technology was dependent on the whims of Oracle. The difference between a technological leader and a technological follower is how much sovereignty you have over your own organization’s technology stack.

  7. DrLoser says:

    If there’s a profit per unit to be made, Robert, then a commercial organisation will make that profit. Which is my point.

    I bet you can’t even remember the “point” you’re mistakenly trying to defend, can you?

    Clue: it was an attempted argument made by one of your more dim-witted commentators.

  8. LinuxGentlesir says:

    ANd once again you didn’t answer my question – Are you Adam King?

    I’m not “Adam King”. But what does it matter? Posing such a question reveals that you posses a certain sense of naivete of the nebulous nature of identity in cyberspace.

  9. DrLoser says:

    [DrLoser] Name me a single business, anywhere, that is prepared to churn out (say) ten times as many goods, for some value of “goods,” without making money off that additional production?
    [Robert]Intel charges about the same prices today for fairly common processors that they did in $ since 2000.

    That’s hardly an example, is it, Robert? I mean, most of the time you bleat about Wintel ripoffs, not Wintel generosity.

    Remind me again. In which particular month in the year of our Lord 2000 did Intel offer a quad-core chip at 3 GHz for $40?

    I’m going to give you a little while to consider that proposition, Robert.

    The two cases are not remotely comparable, are they? As evidenced by the fact that Intel continues to make money on every single chip they sell.

  10. DrLoser says:

    M$, Oracle, RedHat, ISVs are all part of that.

    A remarkably silly and completely unsubstantiated theory, Robert. Interesting, nonetheless.

    Are we now admitting that Red Hat are completely beyond the pale and should be cast into the outer darkness?

    If so, is this a temporary flag of convenience? Or are you going to stick with your principles the next time that Red Hat comes up as a subject?

  11. DrLoser says:

    What slave master, Red Hat?

    To be fair, the slave masters at Red Hat know where the whips and chains are. Canonical is still trying to fashion lock-in via silly putty.

  12. oldfart wrote, “Can you read? I am talking about Linux.”

    I’m talking about IT that requires a whole bunch of external organizations to sing in unison before IT can be upgraded. M$, Oracle, RedHat, ISVs are all part of that.

  13. oldfart says:

    “Believing the slave master knows best is a terrible mistake.”

    What slave master, Red Hat?

  14. oldfart says:

    “So, you let M$ and “partners” call the tune, eh? This is one of the reasons Munich left M$, to have control over their own IT. They can do that with FLOSS but not with non-Free software.”

    Robert Pogson, Can you read? I am talking about Linux.

  15. oldfart wrote, ” we don’t just go around changing versions of the OS just because the new one was released. For example we are in the process of starting the vetting of RHEL 7, It will probably be a minimum of 6months to 1 year before our senior sysadmins and engineering team will OK this version for limited production. And even then, it will not go any further until it the vendor whose applications we run announces official support for the new version.”

    So, you let M$ and “partners” call the tune, eh? This is one of the reasons Munich left M$, to have control over their own IT. They can do that with FLOSS but not with non-Free software.

    Suppose a big business has many applications. By oldfart’s analysis it’s just about impossible to upgrade the system since nothing can be done until the vast majority of those applications are supported on the new system. This is paralysis. In proper IT, each application and operating system should be rather independent. If you can run the application you should be able to run it anywhere. But, no, all those pesky restrictions and artificial complexities of licensing prevent that unless more money is thrown away. Wake up! That’s not how IT should be done. Businesses that realize they should control their own IT run FLOSS. e.g. Google, FaceBook, Peugeot, NYSE,…. They know how to do IT the right way. Believing the slave master knows best is a terrible mistake.

  16. DrLoser wrote, “GDP is quoted in money because GDP is always, and without exception, measured in money”.

    Sigh. Such ignorance for a troll…
    “GDP is the standard measure of the value of final goods and services produced by a country during a period minus the value of imports.” See Domestic product

    Value: “Worth estimated by any standard of purchasing power, especially by the market price, or the amount of money agreed upon as an equivalent to the utility and cost of anything. [1913 Webster]”

    Believe me, cattle and turnips have purchasing power. Folks often trade in their old vehicle for new, for instance. “an equivalent”, eh? Ask the Saudis what GDP means with them pumping 10million barrels a day for less money. Their production has been about the same for the last several years while the price of oil plunged.

  17. oldfart says:

    “So what? I thought you said you don’t take him seriously.”

    ANd once again you didn’t answer my question – Are you Adam King?

  18. DrLoser wrote, “Name me a single business, anywhere, that is prepared to churn out (say) ten times as many goods, for some value of “goods,” without making money off that additional production?”

    Intel charges about the same prices today for fairly common processors that they did in $ since 2000. Meanwhile Moore’s Law has allowed them to ship many times more transistors in each chip and the clockspeed has risen and the throughput has grown rapidly. Of course Intel doesn’t do that as charity but to maintain the monopoly they and M$ developed ages ago. If Intel didn’t increase production, someone else would, like ARM, for instance. M$ has done the same but not to the same magnitude. At their peak they expected to take up to $150 for a consumer to be permitted to use their PC. Now they are lucky to take $10 because consumers have alternatives and are taking those choices. M$ has laid off some staff but their expenses have grown enormously for the same performance on the bottom line of the client division.

  19. DrLoser wrote, “judging by current statistics alone, there’s a far larger proportion of businesses that haven’t done so, totally ignoring Robert Pogson’s wishful thinking.”

    Not so. It’s sad those who have eyes but fail to see. Check out these stats. They show folks are more likely to use GNU/Linux at work than at play in some places.

  20. oldfart wrote, “He would have no compunction of shoving his choices down my throat the way the did his own wife.”

    No shoving was required. TOOS would not work for her. It was always breaking down. As well, that would be very dangerous…

  21. LinuxGentlesir says:

    But you see Robert Pogson doesnt just dislike windows, he actively dislikes and disrespects anyone who uses it.

    So what? I thought you said you don’t take him seriously.

    He would have no compunction of shoving his choices down my throat the way the did his own wife.

    Don’t you think being concerned about his martial relationships is a bit creepy? Did he marry your woman or something?

  22. oldfart says:

    “Don’t you think there is better things to do with your spare time then attack someone who likes an operating system that you don’t?”

    But you see Robert Pogson doesnt just dislike windows, he actively dislikes and disrespects anyone who uses it. He would have no compunction of shoving his choices down my throat the way the did his own wife.

    What about answering my question?

  23. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Nope. I am here because I have spare time on my hands and I don’t like the bullshit that Robert Pogson is spewing in his blog. I like even less his propensity to call people who do not agree with him names to their face.

    Don’t you think there is better things to do with your spare time then attack someone who likes an operating system that you don’t?

  24. oldfart says:

    “Except, his opinions obviously are taken seriously. That’s why you are here, right?”

    Nope. I am here because I have spare time on my hands and I don’t like the bullshit that Robert Pogson is spewing in his blog. I like even less his propensity to call people who do not agree with him names to their face.

    I can be particularly unenlightened that way…

    I am curious sir. The good Doctor seems to think that you are a sock-puppet for a whining little twerp who named himself Adam King who used to post and spam the old TMR.

    Is this true?

  25. DrLoser says:

    Except, his opinions obviously are taken seriously. That’s why you are here, right?

    Nope, both of us are just visiting. Sharing a cup of sugar with Robert, as you would.

    Remind me again how long you have been wasting everybody else’s time here with your incessant pointless natter?

    Or, alternatively, and here’s an idea: explain why letting an exception escape from a C++ destructor is a really bad idea?

    Fifi vs Gnat: a cat-fight I would dearly love to see.

  26. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Your theories are irrelevant to what the good Doctor was saying.

    Sorry I don’t believe in TimeCube.

    I do however doubt that your theories of software maintenance would be given much credence in the context of supporting critical applications be they running on Linux or Windows.

    Except, his opinions obviously are taken seriously. That’s why you are here, right?

  27. DrLoser says:

    (Actually, it’s the beauty of *nix. But it’s all good!)
    🙂

  28. DrLoser says:

    Oh, and speaking of basic programming on a Linux system.

    Comments are still open on how to turn a bog-standard C program into a Linux daemon.

    No systemd knowledge at all required, honest. Once you’ve overcome the hurdle of turning your program into a daemon, I promise you that systemd kicks in pretty much automatically.

    It’s the beauty of Linux! Chuckle.

  29. DrLoser says:

    We’ve read of many businesses that have made the move to GNU/Linux for good and sufficient reasons totally ignoring DrLoser’s wishful thinking.

    And judging by current statistics alone, there’s a far larger proportion of businesses that haven’t done so, totally ignoring Robert Pogson’s wishful thinking.

    The weird thing here, Robert, is that I just don’t care. Businesses could go 50/50 on Linux/Microsoft — or any large move, either way. I do not care.

    This stuff is just not that important to me, as long as I can live and work more or less as I please. (And, as I have noted earlier, I am far better qualified to earn money programming on Linux than you, Robert, ever were.)

    Is there some really important reason why you insist on everybody else prostrating themselves before your genius, Robert?

    I can’t really see one, except that you are still smarting from that little moment in the 1990s when the scales dropped from your eyes, and you suddenly realised that about a billion other people were better at running a Windows desktop than you were.

  30. DrLoser says:

    I do however doubt that your theories of software maintenance would be given much credence in the context of supporting critical applications be they running on Linux or Windows.

    Who says the context has to be “critical,” oldfart?

    Robert can’t even manage forty free Windows machines in a small school in northern Manitoba, for goodness’ sake.

    Letting the man, even in the full flower of his youth, near anything that might be considered to be “critical” would be a gross dereliction of public duty, as far as I can tell.

  31. DrLoser says:

    The purpose of a business is to make money or goods or services

    Let me get this weirdo theory straight, Robert. You are proposing, are you not, that “a business” has three, basically equivalent, purposes?

    Well, there are other “purposes.” Some businesses, eg Canonical, exist for little reason other than to aggrandise the monstrous ego of the Man.

    But, leaving the degenerate cases to one side, we’re essentially left with a single purpose. That purpose being to make money.

    Goods and services? Those are not purposes, Robert. They are facilitators.

    Name me a single business, anywhere, that is prepared to churn out (say) ten times as many goods, for some value of “goods,” without making money off that additional production?

  32. oldfart says:

    “The purpose of a business is to make money or goods or services, not to prop up Wintel and “partners”…(more blathering follows)…”

    Your theories are irrelevant to what the good Doctor was saying. Of course you would be free to espouse on your theories at length. I do however doubt that your theories of software maintenance would be given much credence in the context of supporting critical applications be they running on Linux or Windows.

  33. DrLoser says:

    See, even GDP which is usually quoted in money, is a measure of value, not the amounts of money that changed hands.

    Nope, GDP is quoted in money because GDP is always, and without exception, measured in money. That is what GDP is. That is how it is measured. You can disagree with its value as a measure, but you cannot deny that it is measured in money (fiat money, as it happens — go run with that one, if you wish).

    Because GDP is measured in money. I hate to burst your bubble here. That’s just the way it is.

    One could calculate GDP in turnips or tons of wheat equivalents, for instance.

    One could, indeed. I am not from a farming background, and therefore I do not follow the futures market in either turnips or wheat. But I am given to understand that these markets are measured in money.

    Do you have any preferred medium of exchange in mind, Robert?

  34. DrLoser says:

    Economies existed before money was invented, slavery was economic activity for which only a few saw benefit…

    Most of that few ended up with a spectacularly large amount of money in their pocket, Robert.

    Your pathetic so-called point being?

  35. thr says:

    “A major reason businesses stay with M$ is not because they are so wonderfully productive with M$ but that it takes effort to get off the treadmill.”

    The same kind of effort that any reasonably complex migration requires. Typical Pogson null argument.

  36. oldfart says:

    “The purpose of a business is to make money or goods or services, not to prop up Wintel and “partners”. ”

    This has nothing to do with wintel. We are talking about proper maintenance and support in an IT environment running critical application. Contrary to your blathering about the agility of FOSS, we don’t just go around changing versions of the OS just because the new one was released. For example we are in the process of starting the vetting of RHEL 7, It will probably be a minimum of 6months to 1 year before our senior sysadmins and engineering team will OK this version for limited production. And even then, it will not go any further until it the vendor whose applications we run announces official support for the new version.

    That is the way that it works in the real world of business.

    A

  37. DrLoser wrote, “if you want to convince a business to “buy into” your IT plans, you have to play by their rules.”

    The purpose of a business is to make money or goods or services, not to prop up Wintel and “partners”. DrLoser assumes businesses want to play by M$’s rules because so many of them do. What happens is businesses scoot out the door as soon as they find it.

    A major reason businesses stay with M$ is not because they are so wonderfully productive with M$ but that it takes effort to get off the treadmill. We’ve read of many businesses that have made the move to GNU/Linux for good and sufficient reasons totally ignoring DrLoser’s wishful thinking.

    e.g. Ernie Ball’s Guitar Strings, NYSE, Google, IBM, Facebook, Peugeot, various banks, insurance companies, educational institutions and health facilities. They made the effort because it was a one-time cost instead of the infinite sum of Wintel, as well as leading to the many benefits of FLOSS and GNU/Linux..

  38. DrLoser blathered on about “economic activity”.

    Economic activity is not about money. It’s about doing things. Money is just a common unit of measure. Activities happen whether or not money changes hands. e.g Economies existed before money was invented, slavery was economic activity for which only a few saw benefit, and my Mom used to darn my socks to make them last longer.

    economic: ” of or pertaining to the national or regional economy; relating to political economy; relating to the means of living, or the resources and wealth of a country; relating to the production or consumption of goods and services of a nation or region; as, economic growth; economic purposes; economical truths; an economic downturn. [1913 Webster]”

    See? No mention of money.

    GDP: “the total market values of goods and services produced by workers and capital within a nation’s borders during a given period”

    See, even GDP which is usually quoted in money, is a measure of value, not the amounts of money that changed hands. One could calculate GDP in turnips or tons of wheat equivalents, for instance. Paying for goods/services with money is obviously convenient but not essential. Between nations even, barter works. e.g. One country may trade so much corn for so many tons of ore. This happens all the time. Young folks, retired folks, neighbours, family-members often do unpaid work. It is part of the economy. This year, I’ve helped clean up the local shooting range, cleared the driveway of the widow next door of snow, cooked, fetched, welded, cultivated, mowed and carried for The Little Woman, etc. with lots of economic value but zero transfer of funds. Measuring unpaid economic activity is an art done by combining all known inputs and outputs. For example, a lot of the stuff I do consumes electricity so the GDP will include the cost of production of that energy and some estimate of the value produced by using it. Another example is taxation. If lumber is produced and labour expended to build a house, those things can be tallied up but the resulting house will have a value exceeding all that and a capital gain may be achieved by selling it but the government may tax the transfer by inheritance with no money changing hands except for the tax, not the value of the goods. Does GDP include the value of houses sold or houses built? Both are economic activities. Building houses is an economic activity as is investing in housing. The activity is occuring whether or not money changes hands in the transactions.

  39. DrLoser says:

    What you don’t seem to get (perhaps unfortunately because you’ve been a slave to the private sector your whole life?) is there are organizations (like, maybe you’ve heard of one called NASA) that exist for the sole purpose of advancing human progress.

    Are you entirely sure that referencing a major part of the Military-Industrial Complex advances your argument here?

    That’s one weirdo “not for profit” you picked on as an example there. And no, sorry. Economic activity is economic activity. The word “economic” might give it away. It involves the generation of money.

    No ifs, no buts, next solecism please.

  40. LinuxGentlesir says:

    What you don’t seem to get (perhaps unfortunately because you’ve been a slave to the private sector your whole life?) is there are organizations (like, maybe you’ve heard of one called NASA) that exist for the sole purpose of advancing human progress. Places where we can and do make decisions on how they will advance humanity, in either an abstract sense or a concrete sense. Mr. Pogson also worked for such an organization. It’s really not that uncommon.

  41. DrLoser says:

    Economic activity is not limited to producing profit for shareholders.

    But it is limited to “making money,” contrary to your original claim.

    This is the same solecism, restated. Can we have a new one please?

  42. DrLoser says:

    This is where the agility of FLOSS comes to play.

    No it doesn’t. That sort of “agility” is not what any sane business wants or needs.

    It takes almost no effort to upgrade to the next release of Debian GNU/Linux and you’re good to go.

    No you are not “good to go.” I have yet to hear of a commercial enterprise that will roll out a comprehensive new system without weeks, almost certainly months, of planning and testing and possibly even education.

    But let’s suppose you are right, Robert, and this is the way things should universally be.

    Fact is, they’re not. And if you want to convince a business to “buy into” your IT plans, you have to play by their rules.

    Not yours.

  43. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Economic activity is not limited to producing profit for shareholders.

  44. DrLoser says:

    If you put your mouse over the link, you will see that I did mention the title of TFA in the title= attribute of the link.

    What is this, some sort of Hansel & Gretel Bread-Crumb Game?

    You did not mention the title, nor its basic message, in your post, Robert. That suggests to me that you did not want to face the reality of “TFA” (and wash your M out with S).

    But, having coaxed that basic message out into the open, whether through inspired mouse-waving or actually quoting it, don’t you think it’s worth discussing.

    My original proposition was that Canonical is not a paying proposition, nor is it likely ever to be. Your refutation depended upon a cite which, whatever you may say, backs my proposition up.

    Do you have a suggestion as to how Mr Shuttleworth can transform a $20 million annual loss into, at the very least, a break-even enterprise?

  45. DrLoser says:

    There is even a great and growing level of economic activity in organizations where making money is not even a goal.

    There might be a great and growing level of activity [where making money is not even a goal], but one thing it sure ain’t is “economic activity.”

    Next solecism please.

  46. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Now we have your tunnel vision at work, The world that uses Red Hat is more often than not using Red Hat as the platform to run pre compiled commercial applications from commercial vendors that support red hat linux either primarily or specifically. These types of business are not interested in joining geek communes to save a few bucks when millions are in play.

    Name some. People use buzzwords “enterprise” as a place of perfectly organized pointy haired suits lecturing about synergy and dollar signs. But the real world does not work in stereotypes. There is even a great and growing level of economic activity in organizations where making money is not even a goal.

  47. DrLoser, being a crashing bore, wrote, “Funny you didn’t mention that, isn’t it?”

    If you put your mouse over the link, you will see that I did mention the title of TFA in the title= attribute of the link.

  48. DrLoser wrote, “it takes about 18 months to get a Linux distribution approved for use in the corporate world. “

    This is where the agility of FLOSS comes to play. It takes almost no effort to upgrade to the next release of Debian GNU/Linux and you’re good to go. There are few budgetary implications and it’s a quick process. APT does work for businesses. The can dist-upgrade, check it out and roll with it for less effort than patching TOOS and its malware for even a few months.

  49. DrLoser says:

    Nobody mentions the Ubuntu Tax, by the way. An iniquitous thing, is the Ubuntu Tax. Why, consumers aren’t even aware that they are paying it!

    Slavery, I tell you! Outright slavery!

    I call upon you, Robert, as the Champion of the Free World, to expose this madness!

  50. DrLoser says:

    From oldfart’s cite, btw:

    The popular OpenSUSE distribution, for instance, has an 18-month lifecycle, meaning that a security issue that occurs 24 months after the initial release date will go un-patched. And it takes about 18 months to get a Linux distribution approved for use in the corporate world. Distributions with such a short life cycle aren’t even worth considering.

    It’s unlikely that Debian or Ubuntu would fare any better on this basis. apt-get just doesn’t cut it in the Corporate World.

  51. DrLoser says:

    See The Report

    What, the one headlined Ubuntu maker boosted revenue in 2013 but doubled loss to $21 million, Robert? Funny you didn’t mention that, isn’t it? An annual loss of $21 million isn’t “pocket-change” to anybody, Robert — your concept of “pocket-change” varies according to the particular item you fervently wish for other people (not you) to throw their money at, but at least it’s consistently inaccurate.

    Who knows what your basis is for claiming that “Shuttleworth is having the last laugh?” It certainly isn’t justified by the financials. Taking Red Hat’s R&D budgetalone (and, remember, Red Hat is yer actual profitable company, not a millionaire’s plaything), it’s six times the annual revenue of Canonical.

    It’s also worth nothing that Red Hat has the institutional backing of Fidelity Growth, T Rowe, Harbor Capital Appreciation, Vanguard and others. Canonical has … er, let me just check my facts here …

    … nobody other than Mark Shuttleworth.

    Not the stuff of an investor’s wet dreams, I surmise.

  52. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart there is problems here. Debian is the most deployed Linux OS in enterprise by surveys second is Ubuntu third is Centos then Finally Redhat.”

    But that’s not what is said here:

    http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/feature/Compare-popular-Linux-distributions-for-servers

    Ubuntu in enterprises? how many?, please cite?

    “This is your tunnelled visson at work. No one is going to put up having to manually build applications over and over again for Redhat when they can go to Debian and have it done in the HP provided build farm. The community nature of Debian means your staff can join Debian and use the Debian acquired hardware and have the package released in the normal Debian update stream.”

    Now we have your tunnel vision at work, The world that uses Red Hat is more often than not using Red Hat as the platform to run pre compiled commercial applications from commercial vendors that support red hat linux either primarily or specifically. These types of business are not interested in joining geek communes to save a few bucks when millions are in play.

  53. DrLoser wrote, “What a fine commercial opportunity that suggests that FLOSS is, Robert.”

    If it were a publicly traded company it would have rather high P/E for sure but just as people invest in RedHat not because of present earning but future earnings, Shuttleworth is having the last laugh. He has the ear of all major OEMs, many governments and schools. Canonical could be the M$ of the next decade. While Canonical is not making a lot of money at the moment, it’s not losing a lot either. It’s very near break-even.

    e.g. “The report says that $50.6 million of the reported $65.7 million in revenue came from sales outside the UK, including $48.2 million from outside Europe. The numbers include the operations of subsidiaries in the US, Canada, and China. China alone covers “the majority of global units shipped.”(Canonical reported its numbers in US dollars because it is the “functional currency of the company.”)
    Canonical’s website says the company has “more than 500 employees in over 39 countries.” The annual report covers the financial impact of 348 employees in the UK base of operations and subsidiaries. $47.7 million of Canonical’s expenses were for paying salaries and benefits in fiscal 2013, up from $39.9 million the previous year.”

    See The Report

    That loss is pocket-change for Shuttleworth and Unbuntu GNU/Linux has grown greatly in popularity since then.

  54. oiaohm says:

    That is your opinion as is your estimation of the value of third party consultancies(Debian) over direct from distributor(Red Hat). ANd REd Hats position as the major go to vendor for an enterprise grade Linux server class distribution server to demonstrate which of our opinion has more value.
    Oldfart there is problems here. Debian is the most deployed Linux OS in enterprise by surveys second is Ubuntu third is Centos then Finally Redhat.

    Oldfart also Redhat has also run surveys on what Redhat Versions are in usage. Over 95 percent of users will be current or a version behind and that is Redhat own surveys.

    http://www.informationweek.com/cloud/infrastructure-as-a-service/googles-cloud-drops-custom-linux-for-debian/d/d-id/1109911

    Robert is wrong about Google. In lot of Google servers these days are pure Debian. 5 years LTS is all Google and a lot of other hosting companies wants.

    Google has migrated from Redhat to Debian. Debian supports more architectures and has biggest repository of applications of any Linux Distribution.

    10 years Lifetime support is starting to look more and more like 3+ blade razor blade shavers when the OS provides free upgrades. Remember Redhat back-ported security patches to a release version 10 years ago can cause you applications to fail anyhow. 5 years from all surveys seam to the the Max LTS Linux Distributions need anything more is advertising/tits on bull because over 95 percent of cases users will not be using it. Since its less than a 5 percent market share the question comes should those people just be forced to migrated based on the idea of Security its a hell of a lot of resources saved cutting the Lifespan in half and those resources can be focused into other things like supporting more applications.

    Oldfart is really easy to get drawn into marketing guy stuff.

    Basically debian you have traded away half the Lifespan for more applications and more hardware support.

    But you were not being talked to and were not in consideration. And you of all people who is always admitting the shortcomings of Linux as a desktop or this or that Linux application should know that Robert Pogsons glossing over of the real problems using Linux as a desktop is downright deceptive.
    Oldfart read my posts. I don’t recommend 100 percent Linux. I accept the short comings. And I do argue with Robert over them.

    Even if that is true, linux distributions are not officially supported by the applications that I am using. So any supposed “functional superiority” is meaningless to me.
    Oldfart if you have not worked out yet. Enterprises choose Debian over Redhat for the same kind of reason. The extra 5 years lifespan is worth nothing if the Applications they want are not provided on Redhat.

    Enterprise using Linux comes down to 5 Linux choices.

    Debian the home to the most packaged applications was 3 years lifespan changed to 5 year lifespan.
    Ubuntu fork of debian with a support company. Still more applications than the ones following with only 5 years lifespan.
    Suse yes this is still around 10 years lifespan packages some different application to what Redhat does.
    Redhat
    CentOS 10 years lifespan least applications and limited commercial support.

    Oldfart none of these are junk. These are all targeting slightly different markets.

    Oldfart you are tunnelled vissoned. When something does not exactly suit your operational requirements you call it junk. You need to step back a bit and you will be able to make a better arguments. You ask lot of photoshop users why they don’t use gimp they can list few features that are missing. I have asked the same as you Oldfart. Now that would be useful to attempt to make Robert understand the problem. But you are completely not cooperative.

    No business and no person who has to get work done is going to put up with this crap. That is why RedHat is in the position that it is in.
    This is your tunnelled visson at work. No one is going to put up having to manually build applications over and over again for Redhat when they can go to Debian and have it done in the HP provided build farm. The community nature of Debian means your staff can join Debian and use the Debian acquired hardware and have the package released in the normal Debian update stream.

    Redhat only Redhat company approved packages get into redhat main update stream.

    DrLoser bending the truth all out of shape, wrote, “three-year-old piece of unpatched garbage from Debian has caused half my development staff to leave in disgust and join a company that uses a proper distro, like Red Hat!”
    Has not happened at Google or Rackspace or many other places that use Debian.

  55. DrLoser says:

    Uh, Canonical, which is definitely a business growing and thriving, depends on Debian GNU/Linux.

    How definite are you on that one, Robert?

    Ubuntu is a privately-held company whose accounts are dealt with offshore, on the Isle of Man. (The Isle of Man is famed throughout the world for an astonishing plethora of Linux developers, btw. It’s something to do with the invigorating sea breeze.)

    Pop quiz: Do you think that Mark Shuttleworth earned any money at all on his share of Canonical in, say, 2014?

    Naturally we can take everything before 2014 as a sunk cost. Albeit, rather a large one. I believe it’s presently in the eight-figure region, dollar wise?

    What a fine commercial opportunity that suggests that FLOSS is, Robert.

  56. oldfart wrote, “No business and no person who has to get work done is going to put up with this crap.”

    Uh, Canonical, which is definitely a business growing and thriving, depends on Debian GNU/Linux. Why do you think they didn’t use Red Hat as their base? Google uses Ubuntu GNU/Linux… Another business that depends on Debian GNU/Linux.

  57. DrLoser says:

    Debian’s stuff is patched as needed for security.

    As long as you’re willing to wait five years for the patch.

    Good lord, this is like shooting particularly ignorant fish in a barrel.

  58. DrLoser says:

    [DrLoser]“roughly fifteen years since the DoJ case have been in any way severely hobbled when it comes to developing competitive applications.”
    [Robert]”That is not true at all. “

    I accept your nit-picking correction, Robert. Eleven years, not fifteen years. And we can even stipulate a non-existent Crime Against Humanity, should you so wish.

    Once again, then. It’s been (according to your revised numbers) eleven years since the playing field was levelled.

    Any other good reason to argue against my basic proposition that programmers of any ilk (commercial, FLOSS, whatever) are seriously unlikely to build quality software unless somebody (obviously not a freeloader like you) pays for it?

    Any other good reason at all?

  59. DrLoser says:

    RedHat distributes much of the same software as everyone else.

    Except for the bits they don’t, Robert. And those are the bits they charge big bucks for.

    Tell me again … why pick Debian over, say, Ubuntu?

  60. DrLoser bending the truth all out of shape, wrote, “three-year-old piece of unpatched garbage from Debian has caused half my development staff to leave in disgust and join a company that uses a proper distro, like Red Hat!”

    RedHat distributes much of the same software as everyone else. If any of their stuff was modified to be superior, it could be copied by others because it’s FLOSS. CentOS and Oracle do that but not many others because RHT has no magical superiority. Debian’s stuff is patched as needed for security. You can always install a later version from their testing branch or from the original authour. I do that for a few packages because I want some of the latest features. RedHat OTH rarely has the latest stuff out because it’s all about long term support, not bleeding edge. Bleeding edge is unlikely to be of any interest to businesses who mostly just want things to work. Debian GNU/Linux works. I’ve used both and could not distinguish any particular difference in performance/security/reliability.

    I have patched a lot of Debian GNU/Linux. It gets patches.
    e.g.
    RHEL 7.1
    Linux 3.10
    LibreOffice 4.2.6
    openSSH 6.6p1
    php 5.4.16
    Debian GNU/Linux 8
    Linux 3.16
    LibreOffice 4.3.3
    openSSH 6.7p1
    php 5.6.7

  61. DrLoser wrote, “roughly fifteen years since the DoJ case have been in any way severely hobbled when it comes to developing competitive applications.”

    That is not true at all. The case was only settled ~2004 and agreeing to be good from then on had nothing to do about fixing the harm to the economy. At that time M$’s monopoly was at its peak and anyone wanted to sell software licences or services had to use M$’s platform. The illegal creation of that monopoly went back as far as the late 1980s, not 200*. M$ was forcing OEMs to install their OS if they wanted to sell PCs by illegal tying etc. The government/courts/police did nothing to prevent that nor to roll it back in any way.

  62. DrLoser says:

    There is an obvious non-sequitur in my prior “four act” playlet featuring businesses, not-for-profits, governments and individuals vis-à-vis Debian, by the way.
    You are all educated and intelligent people. I leave this small challenge for you to find and gloat about.
    (Clue: you will fail, miserably. And if Fifi has switched Grease-monkey off — even more miserably.)

  63. DrLoser says:

    [oldfart]“the applications that I use are not there”.
    [Robert Pogson]”That’s not the fault of GNU/Linux.”

    In what way, Robert?

    Only a Fifi-esque moron would claim that the combined forces of several tens of thousands of FLOSS programmers over roughly fifteen years since the DoJ case have been in any way severely hobbled when it comes to developing competitive applications.

    They have not been so hobbled, Robert. They’re just completely disinterested in the task. (Note: I am not saying “useless.” I’m just pointing out that they are not paid and are therefore completely disinterested.)

    There’s nothing in Gnu/Linux that actively prevents somebody developing a superior roof-building system or whatever.

    But it never happens, does it? And the reasons why it never happens are nothing to do with a fifteen year old lawsuit. And more to do with the motivation of the programmers involved.

    Sadly, Robert, professional programmers are not motivated to give you professional-standard stuff for free. You may accidentally acquire such things, but only because some other generous soul has paid for the development first.

  64. DrLoser says:

    That’s perfect for business, non-profit organizations, governments and individuals.

    Businessman: This three-year-old piece of unpatched garbage from Debian has caused half my development staff to leave in disgust and join a company that uses a proper distro, like Red Hat!
    Pogson: Did you read the Debian Social Contract? It’s perfect!
    Businessman: Perfectly useless to me. What on earth are you babbling on about, Pogson?

    Not-for-profit: This three-year-old piece of unpatched garbage from Debian has caused my entire revenue stream to dry up, because people don’t want to risk their credit cards on OpenSSL vulnerabilities!
    Pogson: Did you read the Debian Social Contract? It’s perfect!
    Not-for-profit: Perfectly useless to me. What on earth are you babbling on about, Pogson?

    Government: This three-year-old piece of unpatched garbage from Debian has brought down the entire online tax site for this year! I don’t need this crap!
    Pogson: Did you read the Debian Social Contract? It’s perfect!
    Businessman: Perfectly useless to me. What on earth are you babbling on about, Pogson?

    Individual: I would love to try Debian out. I understand it’s a bit limited, and all. But I keep hearing the most vocal supporters of Debian calling me a “sheeple” and a “slave.” And Dougie claims that the only reason I can’t use Linux is because “it’s too difficult to understand.” Help me, Robert Pogson!
    Pogson: Did you read the Debian Social Contract, sheeple? It’s perfect!

    What on earth are you babbling on about, Robert? This is pie-in-the-sky nominalism at it’s finest.

    Not to mention that the “Debian Social Contract” was a major beef in the systemd wars.

    What larks!

  65. oldfart says:

    “That’s not the fault of GNU/Linux. That’s the result of illegal monopoly of the desktop by M$ and permitted by US courts.”

    Whose fault it is is irrelevant to me. The fact remains that the applications are not there. You have admitted that they are not there. It is also a fact that what is there is not up to my requirements.

    Period.

  66. oldfart says:

    “That’s perfect for business, non-profit organizations, governments and individuals.”

    Nope. Look at your own cite…

    “We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities….”

    No business and no person who has to get work done is going to put up with this crap. That is why RedHat is in the position that it is in.

  67. oldfart wrote, “debian developers don’t give a tinkers fart about business concerns”.

    Debian Social Contract:“We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing environments. We will not object to non-free works that are intended to be used on Debian systems, or attempt to charge a fee to people who create or use such works. We will allow others to create distributions containing both the Debian system and other works, without any fee from us. In furtherance of these goals, we will provide an integrated system of high-quality materials with no legal restrictions that would prevent such uses of the system.”

    That’s perfect for business, non-profit organizations, governments and individuals.

  68. oldfart wrote, “the applications that I use are not there”.

    That’s not the fault of GNU/Linux. That’s the result of illegal monopoly of the desktop by M$ and permitted by US courts.

  69. oldfart says:

    “In fact in a lot of ways I do agree with Roberts assessment that you are a drug pusher Oldfart. Drug pushers say this will make you feel good then don’t mention any of the down sides.”

    You have a pair sir!

    So when Robert Pogson glosses over of problems with linux that you have brought up and continues talking up the $0 cost of linux as a major thing – thats not drug pushing! And when you excuse away those same problems with “it is getting better” or “that is changing” and continue to “push” linux – thats not drug pushing!

    eh…

  70. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart remember I am a Debian user myself. So attacking Debian was attacking me. You should have considered that before you did. You brought me in very heavy in the debate when you did.”

    But you were not being talked to and were not in consideration. And you of all people who is always admitting the shortcomings of Linux as a desktop or this or that Linux application should know that Robert Pogsons glossing over of the real problems using Linux as a desktop is downright deceptive.

    You should also know that if a program does not work to specifications when it is needed, all the exclamations to the effect that “it is getting better” or “that is changing” is not going to cut it, especially when you are talking to someone who already a solution that world for them!

    “The reality like it or not Oldfart Linux distributions are better at a few things than Windows. ”

    Even if that is true, linux distributions are not officially supported by the applications that I am using. So any supposed “functional superiority” is meaningless to me.

    And that sir, you need to respect yourself.

  71. oldfart says:

    “You can in fact sign up for 10 year support contracts with consultancy companies around Debian and get a Distribution maintained for 10+ years.”

    But it is third party support Whereas RHEL is the distributor.

    “You could say 10 years life cycle support on a Linux is almost like third party extended wartaries. Items you pay for and effectively never use.”

    That is your opinion as is your estimation of the value of third party consultancies(Debian) over direct from distributor(Red Hat). ANd REd Hats position as the major go to vendor for an enterprise grade Linux server class distribution server to demonstrate which of our opinion has more value.

  72. oiaohm says:

    Think Again. Nor does Robert Pogson respect mine or anyone’s choice, but instead keeps calling us slaves and drug pushers.

    It is you who should stay out of my debate with Robert Pogson sir.
    Oldfart remember I am a Debian user myself. So attacking Debian was attacking me. You should have considered that before you did. You brought me in very heavy in the debate when you did.

    In fact in a lot of ways I do agree with Roberts assessment that you are a drug pusher Oldfart. Drug pushers say this will make you feel good then don’t mention any of the down sides.

    All studies of support costs and time have put Linux as requiring less hours to get to a operationally secure set-up. Yet as a drug pusher you attempt to claim Windows is better to support cost out comes Oldfart.

    The reality like it or not Oldfart Linux distributions are better at a few things than Windows. Secure updating and Configuration deployment is something Linux Distributions has and does not result in leaving back door issues open to attempt to-do it. OS X has secure updating and Configuration deployment. The state of Microsoft configuration and updating in this modern age would be just funny if the results were not such a disaster for people maintaining Windows networks.

  73. oiaohm says:

    oldfart lets see how much you can get wrong in one post.
    Debian “support” is from consultancies and external business. they may know how to make it work, but they do not make their own distribution that they keep up to date.
    Error 1.
    https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
    This is a group of consultancies forming a group to maintain their own branch of Debian at Debian.

    THere is the little problem that debian developers don’t give a tinkers fart about business concerns.
    Error 2 Not true at all. Just Debian developers business concerns are a little more complex because the core project cannot harm the consultants.

    In contrast RedHat takes responsibility for maintaining and keeping up to date their distribution, and will even back patch a particular version. I can get a version of RHEL that is guaranteed to be supported for 10 years. I doubt that I can say the same for Debian.
    You can in fact sign up for 10 year support contracts with consultancy companies around Debian and get a Distribution maintained for 10+ years.

    That you don’t get 10 years out a particular version of Debian is nothing more than not being willing to spend the money and mostly that its pointless Oldfart.

    Debian is currently moving to a 5 year cycle instead of a 3. The interesting point is that even a 3 year cycle due to the fact debian handles it as a rolling in place upgrade has not be that disruptive to businesses. The machine I am sitting at was clean installed back prior to the year 2000. This is highly common with Debian systems.

    oldfart serous-ally is not hard to patch old applications to use old libraries.
    http://bitwagon.com/rtldi/rtldi.html
    The dirty little secret the dynamic loader in Linux is userspace and changable. So what would you pay your support company todo. Keep systems alive running all old programs. Or patch the old programs you need to use the LSB dynamic loader and use new programs everywhere else.

    oldfart there are two different methods to do long term support. Redhat goes for keeping Distributions alive with lots of old applications for a long time Consultancies around Debian go for patch old applications to run on new so using the least number of old libraries and parts so reducing security risks. Neither method is without draw backs.

    Oldfart OS supported for 10 years is questionable. Problem is the layers and layers of back-ported patches each with their own possibility of bring more problems. Most Redhat users only keep a OS in operation for 5 years.

    Really Oldfart have you really done the numbers. How much Redhat do you in fact use the 10 year life cycle or are you really like the Redhat common of 4 to 5 years. You could say 10 years life cycle support on a Linux is almost like third party extended wartaries. Items you pay for and effectively never use.

  74. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart does not respect Roberts choice at all. I did not say anything about you FIFI so keep you head out of this.”

    Think Again. Nor does Robert Pogson respect mine or anyone’s choice, but instead keeps calling us slaves and drug pushers.

    It is you who should stay out of my debate with Robert Pogson sir.

  75. oldfart says:

    “We certainly can recommend GNU/Linux and other FLOSS with utter confidence that it will work for you.”

    And you have the balls to say this having admitted that the applications that I use are not there, but you hope that someday they will be! You are a corker Robert Pogson.

  76. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart. Really insulting Debian because you are such a idiot that you don’t know that Debian is heavily commercial supported.”

    Debian “support” is from consultancies and external business. they may know how to make it work, but they do not make their own distribution that they keep up to date. THere is the little problem that debian developers don’t give a tinkers fart about business concerns. In contrast RedHat takes responsibility for maintaining and keeping up to date their distribution, and will even back patch a particular version. I can get a version of RHEL that is guaranteed to be supported for 10 years. I doubt that I can say the same for Debian.

  77. oiaohm says:

    FIFI keep you head out of this. Oldfart called Debian Junk in fact that is not true. Oldfart step across a line here he should not have. Redhat and Debian quality of delivery has been fairly indentical.

    Oldfart does not respect Roberts choice at all. I did not say anything about you FIFI so keep you head out of this.

  78. Deaf Spy wrote, “we absolutely laugh at your claims that you can tell us what is better for us.”

    Isn’t lower cost IT better for everyone that uses it? Yes.

    Isn’t more diversified IT supported by the world better than the single point of failure that is M$? Yes.

    Isn’t encouraging developers of OS software all over the world better than maintaining a monopoly? You bet.

    Isn’t freedom from malware the right way to do IT? Oh yes!

    We certainly can recommend GNU/Linux and other FLOSS with utter confidence that it will work for you. If one thing is certain in IT it’s that M$ and “partners” are not your friends. They are out to get you and their margins show they have succeeded in enslaving much of the world. 2015 marks the opening of the gates of the slave-camps of IT.

  79. Deaf Spy says:

    Really Oldfart why should we respect your will to use Windows when you don’t respect our choice to use a well maintained and enterprise acceptable solution
    On the contrary, we sure do, Ohio. We absolutely respect what you and Pogson use. It is your choice, you are entitled to it.

    But we absolutely laugh at your claims that you can tell us what is better for us.

    Simple as that.

  80. oiaohm says:

    Really Oldfart why should we respect your will to use Windows when you don’t respect our choice to use a well maintained and enterprise acceptable solution.

  81. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    Linux is only crapware as a desktop. It is quite good enough where I support it, as a server running specific Enterprise LOB applications. Of course, we license and run the commercial fully supported Red Hat Enterprise Linux, unlike the Debian junk that you like.

    https://www.debian.org/users/
    Really oldfart your being idiot. Debian is not junk its used by many large companies who don’t use Redhat. You can buy formal support for Debian.

    Its like Centos users who pay nothing for the OS then buy support from Redhat.

    https://www.debian.org/partners/

    You want to know who big companys behind Debian is. None other than HP Oldfart. Debian project needs servers/workstations all they need to do is pick up phone ring HP and they will have them in 7 days for free.

    You want commercial supported Debian pay the dollars and you will have it Oldfart. Really insulting Debian because you are such a idiot that you don’t know that Debian is heavily commercial supported.

  82. oiaohm says:

    What about the bits of software that are in GNU/Linux but not in TOOS? Like OpenSSH.
    Robert I never recommend a pure solution. Going pure Windows Pure Linux or Pure OS X you are missing out on something.

    Robert Pogson really things like APT comes interesting when you look at what Microsoft provides instead.

    wsus and group policy you use to replace APT under windows. Problem here they are not designed properly. Neither of the Microsoft products use proper signing if you add third party parts.

    Like wsus for example https://wsuspackagepublisher.codeplex.com/ Yep Microsoft does not ship a well made management tool for it. Oldfart says he will not use unsupported FOSS. So I bet Oldfart is not using WSUS servers effectively. Also remember due to APT using standard transport protocols there is absolutely no issue with hosting a local Linux update server on a Windows Server other than costs.

    Really you here a Windows Admin being anti-FOSS fire them and employ one who does not exactly care. Why because some of the best tools to reduce the hours of work they have to perform are FOSS because Microsoft default tools sux.

    ie. Debian GNU/Linux gave us the default installation, a good and useful selection of desktop applications, databases, servers, web-applications, all for one low price, $0 and some downloading which was automated. There’s no comparison of the richness of Debian GNU/Linux to XP Home as issued by an OEM.
    This is prepackaged applications for network deployment advantage of Linux. Windows so need a proper distribution system.

    Really due to how important updates are to security requiring special servers to host time is one of Microsoft biggest problems.

    https://github.com/wdas/reposado
    Apple design is based around a normal http transport. Everyone bar Windows update solution is based around normal http and https.

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg258047.aspx
    Yep Microsoft though it was a good idea to go soap with own invent protocol.

    Microsoft repeatability suffers NIH syndrome. So they go invent there own odd ball way of doing stuff end up in cases of no competition or diversity. Lack of diversity also makes exploiting more effective as well..

  83. oldfart says:

    “How do you sleep at night knowing you’re supporting crapware for your employer? ”

    Linux is only crapware as a desktop. It is quite good enough where I support it, as a server running specific Enterprise LOB applications. Of course, we license and run the commercial fully supported Red Hat Enterprise Linux, unlike the Debian junk that you like.

  84. oiaohm wrote about, “features include when you have to use particular bits of software that are not on Linux.”

    What about the bits of software that are in GNU/Linux but not in TOOS? Like OpenSSH. One has to actually install it in TOOS to make it useful. APT can manage all those apps and more with a single operation. With TOOS, one has to update the OS, the drivers, the applications, re-re-reboot and start all over again… It’s called the Wintel treadmill for a reason. People are so busy running it that they forget they are providing free/wasted labour to M$ in the process.

    In schools where I worked we had far more software with GNU/Linux than TOOS except in one case and that was a Mac lab with a wall full of “educatonal” games on CD…

    ie. Debian GNU/Linux gave us the default installation, a good and useful selection of desktop applications, databases, servers, web-applications, all for one low price, $0 and some downloading which was automated. There’s no comparison of the richness of Debian GNU/Linux to XP Home as issued by an OEM.

    e.g. Consider 100 thick clients and a server on the LAN. With TOOS, you have to pay for a server-licence to get much done and CALs. That’s a tax on the network which M$ doesn’t own and didn’t pay for… So you’re talking $5000+$1000+$2500 just to get started. Meanwhile, a school using GNU/Linux does not need to pay for any other software and can spend $8500 on more PCs, printers, network, servers,…. That’s just the beginning. Then you get to spend 1/3 to 1/2 as much time on maintenance. If a school uses LTSP, the number is more like 1/10. Schools that use TOOS are either crippled in IT or broke. They mostly all get the same funding, so much per student. The school using GNU/Linux is far ahead in budgetary flexibility.

  85. oldfart wrote, “As far as you allegations of there being “good alternative”, as far as I am concerned, your contention is more often than not downright laughable.”.

    How do you sleep at night knowing you’re supporting crapware for your employer? Shouldn’t you do the right thing and advise them to stop using GNU/Linux if it’s not a good alternative? [SARCASM]

  86. DrLoser wrote about, “fanatical devotion to IBM”.

    Who? Me? I was impressed by S/360/370 but not so by their monopolistic exploitation back then. e.g. They sold multiple models of printers, fast and faster, that sort of thing. When you paid for “faster”, a tech came by and changed a clock… It was the hardware equivalent of M$’s XP and XP Pro nonsense… I’ve never forgiven them for not insisting on a second source for software for PCs. They were right to insist on second sources for chips but they really messed up Earth with the monopoly they granted M$. All the businesses going from mainframe to PC followed IBM’s lead and M$ had the inside track causing a Dark Age of PCs. By 2015, I think we’ve mostly left that behind.

    Then DrLoser really went off the rails, pulling conclusions based on false premises out of his rear.

  87. DrLoser wrote, “I believe your earlier assertion was that you were personally responsible for ordering forty of the things, Robert.”

    The Home systems of which I wrote existed on Day One of my tenure. They were HP, Acer, and something else that escapes me at the moment. The forty CFSL machines I obtained for the school over two years had XP Pro, I think when they arrived but they were all immediately paved with GNU/Linux as that was what we as a community of education decided to do with them so we would have a single OS everywhere at the same level, much easier to maintain than several images of XP that were required. In the last year we obtained 12 NIB machines which I paved with Debian after letting students see the nonsense involved in commissioning an XP machine. They were dual-core, AMD64 machines with 2gB RAM and 512MB hard drives and they sucked with XP compared to our ancient CFSL machines which has 256/512MB and 40gB hard drives. One of those was later reverted to “7” at the demand of a teacher and about 7h of my personal time, upon which she was no longer able to use the network shares and the printer on her desktop for lack of a driver. At report time she ended up using a GNU/Linux machine.

    DrLoser also wrote, “forty Windows 98 machines” at Easterville.

    I never saw a Lose ’98 machine at Easterville. Their old lab used XP. DrLoser seems confused by the fast pace of my career in education. I was in Easterville about 2007. I worked in two more schools after Easterville. I retired in 2011. Think of me as the Johnny Appleseed of GNU/Linux in education… I went wherever I was needed, fixed things and moved on. I did teach, BTW, besides making IT useful in education. Often, schools had about 10 students per PC when I arrived (one lab) and about 3 students per PC when I left thanks to administrators and teachers who knew a good thing when they saw it, unlike DrLoser.

  88. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson features include when you have to use particular bits of software that are not on Linux. Yes your case you might have been able to go 100 percent FOSS. Its remembering its 90/10 split so its not really giving up too much to say stuff the 10 percent of features you cannot have. Schools were you should be teaching problem solving being a few features missing is really not deal breaker.

    Yes I agree the authentication issue can be a major problem at times.

  89. oiaohm says:

    Cheap? Are we having a Memory lapse, sir? You know full well that I have no problem paiying for licenses for all of my commercial software. I also have no problem investing time (up to a point) in the commercial software that I use.

    What I have a problem in is putting dime one in a system that moochers like you and Robert Pogson benefit from.
    So Oldfart stop buying Microsoft Windows. Why a percentage of a purchase of MS Windows goes into funding FOSS development. So you don’t want to give a single Dime you are screwed Oldfart.

    Sorry Oldfart you are cheap and stupid. Either you fund FOSS directly and get to request the features you want or pay commercial company and percentage of the money goes to shareholders a percentage goes into closed source and a percentage goes into FOSS.

    I also have no problem investing time (up to a point) in the commercial software that I use.
    This is a line of a bias bigot. Really you should have no problem investing time in software that you use or may use in future as part of R&D for feature development.

    Claiming because some people will benefit without paying is so much a joke. Like students get MS Office 365 on line for free so due to this being the case will you agree now to stop using MS Office Oldfart. Does not matter a percentage of users in every commercial product does not pay. FOSS is just more open about it. If you start having problems with people using what you paid for for free and you remove all that software from the computer you will have nothing to use Oldfart.

    Oldfart basically your cheap arguement is that of a Idiot. Of course Oldfart wants to think just because he pays licenses he is not a Cheap person.

  90. oiaohm wrote, ” Issue with the Linux deployment is not cost but lack of functionality in particular areas.”

    I have no lack of functionality in my GNU/Linux systems. They hum. They get the job done. They don’t slow down, require endless re-re-reboots or collect malware. TOOS has terrible lack of functionality from the EULA on down. e.g. A family up North bought a good PC on a round-trip flight to Winnipeg. It was Vista. After 30days it refused to work for them. No authentication, you see. No Internet and no telephone. That’s criminal, selling defective by design goods on a global scale. I gave them GNU/Linux and they had their machine working perfectly with no such crappy restrictions.

  91. oiaohm wrote, “it takes way more than 1 to 2 days to learn how to get Windows Terminal services running correctly. Yes to you that seamed like a massive amount of time.”

    I’ve used that to control servers and a few PCs. It’s not that difficult. The hard part is trying to do it without a licence for a server. Read the EULA. M$ wants to be paid extra for the privilege of using TOOS in any way similar to what a UNIX-like system behaves naturally. GPL provides the right to run the software, with no ands, ifs or buts. That’s the right way to do IT without a raft of bean counters and lawyers getting in the way. If M$ were selling cars they would charge extra for the fourth wheel.

  92. oldfart says:

    “Reality this proves to me that its you Oldfart who is the cheap one. As you are not willing to invest in product R&D to possibly get improved product in future.”

    Cheap? Are we having a Memory lapse, sir? You know full well that I have no problem paiying for licenses for all of my commercial software. I also have no problem investing time (up to a point) in the commercial software that I use.

    What I have a problem in is putting dime one in a system that moochers like you and Robert Pogson benefit from.

  93. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson something to remember it takes way more than 1 to 2 days to learn how to get Windows Terminal services running correctly. Yes to you that seamed like a massive amount of time.

    The simple reality here from a management side to get results that work and are dependable Linux in fact takes less time. This the big thing against someone learning to manage Windows systems on the job.

    Like it or not Oldfart is a cheapskate in R&D. When you get too cheapskates in different ways arguing over costs its pointless.

  94. oiaohm says:

    Why should I exclusively use software solely because it is cheap. I am not Robert Pogson cheapskate who will use the technological equivalent of instant potatoes in order to avoid spending money. Microsoft is the most cost effective platform for the software that I and a lot of others used and continue to use.
    oldfart the most cost effective and functional OS Platform for business/schools is 90/10 split. 90 percent Linux and 10 percent Windows.

    Oldfart Microsoft is not cost effective in large deployments. The maintenance cost against Malware/Viruses …… coming from key things screwed up is not funny.

    Oldfart yes Rorbert might be cheep but there is absolutely no way to win him over saying hey Microsoft is more cost effective when every neutral study in large deployments says every otherwise. Really saying Microsoft products is cost effective is in fact being stupid as there is no documentation from valid sources backing you case at all.

    Linux pure deployment is more cost effective than Windows pure deployment. Issue with the Linux deployment is not cost but lack of functionality in particular areas.

    And there is not anything silly about that.
    Oldfart there is something silly about it because there is no evidence to say you are right. Cost is the complete wrong thing to argue against Linux on.

    Security Linux wins in management fails in some point blank features like screen locking. Really who in their right mind can think that its find that group policies under Windows are still unsigned and WinRM defaults to unencrypted these are all basic things wrong.

    ssh is encrypted yes improvement over the old telnet that Unix systems use to use. Most distributions don’t ship with telnet any more. Puppet and cfgengine all policy equal files are signed and client computer will reject any file that is not signed.

    And why should I have to supply free labor assisting in assisting in the implementation of missing features that I have now in the FOSS alternatives that you would have me use.
    Reality this proves to me that its you Oldfart who is the cheap one. As you are not willing to invest in product R&D to possibly get improved product in future.

  95. DrLoser says:

    That last school had about 50% Home systems. Don’t blame me. I didn’t buy them.

    I believe your earlier assertion was that you were personally responsible for ordering forty of the things, Robert.

    I can remember my step-daughter’s school in Atherton in the 1990s. Now, Atherton is no Easterville, because its inhabitants tend to spend on their house about 500x what they spend on educational IT. But since the average price of a house there is $5 million, I think it’s a fair comparison.

    My step-daughter’s school had a lab of about twenty, maybe thirty, Windows PCs, Robert. All humming along quite adequately, as I remember.

    What an interesting head-to-head that would have been! A school run by a run-of-the-mill IT drone with 30 Windows 98 PCs. A school in the Bastion of Silicon Valley Privilege, where every second parent was a High Price Lawyer who would not hesitate to Sue Your Educational Butt Off if you screwed up.

    And, in Easterville, a very remote school with underprivileged First Nation/Meti kids, and forty Windows 98 machines. Ten more than Atherton! And a man of Huge Experience and Unimpeachable Wizardry to run the things!

    Alas, two hours after they were delivered, you’d paved every single one over, hadn’t you, Robert? Therefore this otherwise very interesting little experiment never happened, did it?

    It’s almost as though you took a perverse pleasure in forcing the poor kids into even further deprivation and lack of job opportunities.

  96. DrLoser says:

    Why do you embrace monopoly? It’s a crime what M$ did combined with grievous mistakes IBM later regretted.

    The first half of this argument boils down to “I really miss the monopoly that IBM had. IT was so much more affordable when you had a choice of whatever computer you wanted, as long as it was a S/370.”

    And the second half of this argument boils down to “Well, me, I would have preferred an IBM monopoly. But I was prepared to compromise and take OS/2! Yes, it cost about twice as much as the M$ equivalent, and printer drivers were extortionate if indeed available at all! But it’s the principle of the thing! Even a duopoly is preferable, as long as IBM is one of the slave-drivers!”

    Either one of these is an interesting position to take, Robert. The obvious conclusions here are that

    1. You were very much in your comfort zone in the 1960s and 1970s, when you were elite and one of the very few Wizards with software skills. Naturally, that meant a fanatical devotion to IBM.
    2. You were very much out of your comfort zone in the 1990s, when you were no longer elite and — when administering Windows machines — not even marginally competent.

    I understand that it must be a bit galling to watch something like a billion members of the Great Unwashed sweep past you and relegate your dilapidated skill-set to history, but even so, Robert.

    IBM? Not the first name than springs to mind in terms of Corporate Libre Open Source activities in the 20th century.

  97. oldfart says:

    “Why should I supply free labour for M$, spreading their technology? ”

    And why should I have to supply free labor assisting in assisting in the implementation of missing features that I have now in the FOSS alternatives that you would have me use.

  98. oldfart says:

    “oldfart exactly when everything starts going the wrong way for you then you play the extraneous card. Sorry this case its not extraneous its the real problem.”

    It its real all right for all systems, it is just not germaine to the point under discussion.

  99. oldfart says:

    “So, instead of griping about what I did as if it were a crime you should be complaining that M$ was allowed to stay on the market with their crapware despite a good alternative being available at much lower cost and better performance”

    Why should I. I do not currently have problems with current generation of windows OS, And I am satisfied with my current applications, and I do not consider current microsoft products as crapware. As far as you allegations of there being “good alternative”, as far as I am concerned, your contention is more often than not downright laughable.

    “Why do you embrace monopoly? It’s a crime what M$ did combined with grievous mistakes IBM later regretted. ”

    Why should I exclusively use software solely because it is cheap. I am not Robert Pogson cheapskate who will use the technological equivalent of instant potatoes in order to avoid spending money. Microsoft is the most cost effective platform for the software that I and a lot of others used and continue to use. And there is not anything silly about that.

    We have heard over and over again from you about Microsoft “crimes”. The simple fact of the matter is that most of those “crimes” weren’t criminal. they were part of a long ago civil suit that resulted in a settlement along with some monitoring that has now ended and is over. But because Robert Pogson, judge, jury and executioner, does not like what happened in the U.S. courts we get to listen to his opinion of microsoft criminality stated as fact, when it is not.

    “Why should the world pay double for IT just because M$ exists? That’s silly.” If the software suits a need, and the terms of lease are acceptable, why shouldn’t I or anyone be able to plunk down my cash and get to work? The world can and does pay what it can afford for software it requires.

    Note everyone is content to shamelessly bask in the glow of other peoples work.

  100. oldfart wrote, “if you had the chops to acquire the knowledge to do it for a room full of linux machines, you should have been able to acquire if for a room full of windows XP systems.”

    1. Why should I supply free labour for M$, spreading their technology? It didn’t work and there was no way to make it work legally or under budget.
    2. The EULA for Home basically prohibits a lot of the ordinary things admins need to do for a raft of PCs. That last school had about 50% Home systems. Don’t blame me. I didn’t buy them. I didn’t lose the stickers nor the documentation. I did the best I could with what I had. GNU/Linux was far easier than making XP work by far. It was more work to keep track of the stickers than to install GNU/Linux and every machine came with a licence riding with the software. Problem solved. No EULA meant no EULA problems.
    3. Lose ’98 had pitiful networking. We got 10X the bandwidth by switching to GNU/Linux in that first school lab.
    4. In those days, the EULA forbade more than 10machines networked. I had 30 or more. There was no way to use our hardware properly and to comply with the EULA. I could have spent $thousands to get new licences I suppose but it was much less costly to switch to GNU/Linux.
    5. The main GoTo applications in those early days were the office suite and browser. I used Netscape and StarOffice with complete satisfaction. No user complained that I wasn’t using M$’s stuff early on. Only later did I encounter a few whimpers. I even had people who did not even realize they weren’t using some new version of TOOS because the applications were so similar in appearance. There was essentially no lock-in for students and compatibility was good enough for teachers.

    So, instead of griping about what I did as if it were a crime you should be complaining that M$ was allowed to stay on the market with their crapware despite a good alternative being available at much lower cost and better performance. Why do you embrace monopoly? It’s a crime what M$ did combined with grievous mistakes IBM later regretted. Why should the world pay double for IT just because M$ exists? That’s silly. Let IT be competitive and let the best OS win. By introducing students to FLOSS I made that possible in part. The rest of the world is leaving USA behind in many fields thanks to this inefficient IT USA accepts.

  101. oiaohm wrote, “since Robert could learn to manage Linux he should have been able to Manage Windows is over looking the core basic in complexity.”

    This issue has many facets. My first experience after installation was basically as a user. I rarely had to be root except to add software. I did not figure out the networking except connecting to the Internet that first school year. That was all I needed. Later, when I became a computer teacher, I discovered LTSP and openSSH and my life changed forever. That was one or two days to get everything working, not a great investment in time. I recall I had arrived in community when there came a knock on the door late at night asking me whether I wanted to change from maths to computers. We tried Lose ’98 for a few days but I could crash it reliably in a few minutes casually or in a few seconds deliberately so when 30 students showed up it was guaranteed one student or more would lose their work each class. I put up LTSP shortly and when I found how easy it was (K12KTSP supported by RedHat) and how it performed (30 students on my 32-bit Beast simultaneously and with great joy), we immediately began a project where the students designed and built a real dedicated terminal server. The principal had some cash on hand and it took a month or so to get parts, build them in class, install software and run it. I think it took a day to configure LTSP the first time and it worked the next day except that I had two DHCP servers on the LAN. I fixed that promptly and it worked trouble-free all year. Students were overjoyed that they had the performance of a new PC on the same old junk that annoyed them daily with TOOS. So, the flexibility of GNU/Linux to do that with limited resources is far superior to TOOS. There are several features which lends GNU/Linux to education. It was not hard to implement and it just kept working so we got to teach instead of fiddling with M$’s crapware.

    I’m not kidding. To kill Lose ’98 all I had to do was open 3/4 web pages or even less with the wordprocessor also open. It just could not manage memory. I was aghast watching GNU/Linux put all the RAM to use and how little the total required on the server (1.5gB) compared to 64MB on 30 machines being hopeless. I’ve stood in labs running XP with 512MB per student (12gB in the room) that were still sluggish, taking 2m to boot for instance. LTSP is much better use of resources. So it can’t do some things. It does many other things better/cheaper/faster.

    At the same time I am accused of being incompetent I was able to learn to do all this on GNU/Linux with very little effort. I find GNU/Linux rational, modular and efficient, very suitable for schools who need a lot of seats at lowest cost.

  102. oldfart wrote, “security was not an issue that he was concerned at in his environment. SO talking about it is extraneous to this discussion.”

    The number one concern was getting things to work. For security, I was happy with a Dansguardian/Clamdscan solution at the connection to the Internet. We went from hundreds/thousands of malwares running unchecked on our system to nothing at all. I think the record malwares on a single PC was ~1000 on XP and many machines slowed to unusability. I rarely saw anything on GNU/Linux except test-malwares to check that the filter was working. The worst security issue we had was students using proxy-servers out on the web to bypass our filters. I described the situation to administration of a 500-student school and the decision was made to ignore the problem unless serious issues resulted. We never heard of any problems that way. ISTR it was only 7 students doing that. Most of the seats in that school were XP.

    To the extent that malware affects IT in schools it matters here. I have rarely seen a school that didn’t have malware problems with that other OS. The only exceptions I can recall ran DeepFreeze or a whitelist. Both of those systems greatly reduced the flexibility of the system. e.g. When HQ pointed students to the wrong printer, there was no way for the user or teacher to fix the problem for good. It was GroundHog Day on each boot.

  103. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    Robert Pogson has made it very clear that security was not an issue that he was concerned at in his environment. SO talking about it is extraneous to this discussion.
    Really Robert has complained about malware and other issues.

    That damned EULA made as much work for me as all the malware did and it was impossible for me to comply with the letter of it with the limited storage I had and no installation media.
    This is Robert comment Oldfart.

    Pull you head in the major problem Robert was in fact having with Windows was malware out breaks. Cause some of the reason why the malware outbreaks historically have been so bad has been the man in middle attacks performable against group policy, WinRM and the other prior Microsoft control solutions.

    Linux being simpler and mostly properly designed for management makes the risks of a large scale malware out break a lot lower.

    oldfart exactly when everything starts going the wrong way for you then you play the extraneous card. Sorry this case its not extraneous its the real problem.

  104. oldfart says:

    “oldfart lets not forget due to stuff working correctly Linux personal have to learn less to achieve operationally secure state. So claiming since Robert could learn to manage Linux he should have been able to Manage Windows is over looking the core basic in complexity.”

    Robert Pogson has made it very clear that security was not an issue that he was concerned at in his environment. SO talking about it is extraneous to this discussion.

  105. oiaohm says:

    http://www.grouppolicy.biz/2015/02/vulnerability-group-policy-fixed-ms15-011-ms15-015/

    oldfart Microsoft is starting to attempt to clean up a huge stack of cases where Windows would get man in middle attacked.

    Yes the magical group policy stuff was some of the reason why worms could own windows networks so quickly because it done so incorrectly.

  106. oiaohm says:

    oldfart lets not forget due to stuff working correctly Linux personal have to learn less to achieve operationally secure state. So claiming since Robert could learn to manage Linux he should have been able to Manage Windows is over looking the core basic in complexity.

    SSH that is fairly secure and base level works as intended.

    http://www.olindata.com/blog/2015/02/eyaml-hiera-data-encryption

    When you got up to using puppet or cfgengine fully you have per client target encryption. This is not like wimpy windows group policy.

    oldfart with WinRM I did not mention the best flaw about it if you get man in middle and disrupt the encrypted hand shake most cases it will switch back to unencrypted. Oldfart you like claiming 30 years experience yet you just suggested using a solution that is completely security flawed.

  107. oldfart says:

    ” TOOS is supposed to be a consumer-friendly, plug-and-play OS, and it’s not.”

    Sez the man who had refused to go the extra mile for windows the way that he did for his beloved freebie. Also, name me a consumer who has to maintain a lab of 100 machines. No Robert Pogson you or anyone else either had to acquire the knowledge to do lab maintenance on a shoestring. And as far as I am concerned, if you had the chops to acquire the knowledge to do it for a room full of linux machines, you should have been able to acquire if for a room full of windows XP systems.

    And don’t assume that I don’t have experience – remember I work for a university IT and we have to maintain multiple labs.

  108. oiaohm wrote, “if you dig around you will find it is between 40 to 50 percent time difference. So every 2 hours you have to spend to maintain windows you only need to spend 1 on Linux.”

    That may be close for thick clients but LTSP versus TOOS thick clients is not on the same page at all. My biggest system required a minute or two to check status of a few servers and 100+ thin clients were cool. M$ now is OK with thin clients but of course requires a bunch of extra licences to Balmer could “get value” for his wonderful OS. GNU/Linux gives full value at no extra cost. Really, maintaining a GNU/Linux terminal server is only slightly more work than maintaining one GNU/Linux thick client yet dozens of users can be made happy. Thin clients are as reliable as telephones. Largo, FL has big servers with hundreds of simultaneous users. That’s a powerful force-multiplier. One school in Saskatchewan switched to thin clients, increasing the number of users/clients three-fold, and the workload of the techs decreased to the point where they had plenty of time to plan ahead easily. There are numbers kicking around about how many techs are needed for so many users and GNU/Linux thin clients are superstars. RedHat claims 10K users for one admin and it doesn’t require any special knowledge with Debian GNU/Linux. The tools to manage one machine are the same tools to manage any number.
    “Red Hat Network allows a system administrator to remotely update, group, deploy, and provision desktop systems. Whether it’s 10 or 10,000 desktop systems, the system administration effort is the same. This frees up some of your desktop personnel to be redeployed on other projects.”

    see http://ha.redhat.com/rhel/desktop/

  109. oldfart, losing all self-respect, wrote, “we dont include windows but you are going to need it anyway, so its available for $8 for the machine option.”

    Check “No” and you can order machines without an OS. QED.

  110. oldfart wrote, “The only burden was to robert pogson cheapskate and refusnik, who never bothered to properly learn how to properly maintain and manage windows desktops to the extent that he had already learned to maintain and manage linux desktops.”

    That’s crap. TOOS is supposed to be a consumer-friendly, plug-and-play OS, and it’s not. It doesn’t work in schools without tech-support. It simply was not possible to keep TOOS running in my schools often without a major expenditure. Using GNU/Linux cost nothing but a little of my time. GNU/Linux ran just fine without any other tech support.

    e.g. I just read that Netcraft finds 70million web-servers using TOOS are vulnerable… Schools are not in the business of keeping M$ going. If M$ can’t produce a product that works for schools schools will move on.

    I’ve been in schools that had a lot of tech support and they could keep TOOS running more or less reliably. Even then, we didn’t have enough IT. It was all they could do to afford a computer lab. With GNU/Linux I was able to have more and better IT in every classroom and open space as well as the lab for less time/money. M$ just is not competitive in this space. Having a monopoly is not the same as being competitive.

    oldfart wrote, “Windows 7 can be managed on a shoestring via a combination of windows freeware and judicious use of powershell scripts once WinRM is set up on the desktops being managed.”

    And Debian GNU/Linux comes with that capability from a standard installation (SSH+desktop task). Now, about M$’s EULA…
    “f. Device Connections. You may allow up to 20 other devices to access software installed on the licensed computer to use only File Services, Print Services, Internet Information Services and Internet Connection Sharing and Telephony Services.” So, you have 100 devices… SOL! There is a provision about remote assistance but that doesn’t apply to scripted management. “b. Licensed Computer. You may use the software on up to two processors on the licensed computer at one time. Unless otherwise provided in these license terms, you may not use the software on any other computer.
    c. Number of Users. Unless otherwise provided in these license terms, only one user may use the software at a time.”
    Got 3+ processors in your computer? SOL! “7” Pro does allow re-imaging from a common file. Not so “Home”. SOL!

    Get it? TOOS doesn’t work for schools.

  111. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    The only burden was to robert pogson cheapskate and refusnik, who never bothered to properly learn how to properly maintain and manage windows desktops to the extent that he had already learned to maintain and manage linux desktops. The complaint that it was not your job is bogus – if you could spend the time learning how to manage linux hosts via cli commands amdf tinkering off hours, you could have done the same with windows!

    There is something you are missing intentionally oldfart.
    http://members.apex-internet.com/sa/windowslinux/03-06-troubleshooting.html

    Over and over its showing that Linux machines need less hours of tinkering to keep them working.

    Oldfart if you dig around you will find it is between 40 to 50 percent time difference. So every 2 hours you have to spend to maintain windows you only need to spend 1 on Linux. These reports have existent since the year 2000. So spend the same number of hours on staff you can have your staff doing some software development.

    Windows 7 can be managed on a shoestring via a combination of windows freeware and judicious use of powershell scripts once WinRM is set up on the desktops being managed. Applications under windows 7 can be locked down set up to run from unprivileged accounts.
    Oldfart Linux users can manage quite large systems without requiring

    WinRM really have you not used this have you Oldfart.
    http://powershell.com/cs/forums/p/5504/8893.aspx
    WinRM and IIS have a very bad habit of playing I want port games resulting in 1 or the other not working.

    Oldfart you are in fact better off installing one of the ssh servers on Windows.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_SSH_servers
    Yes ssh own protocol with its own port none of the conflict issues.

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/2019527
    Worse WinRM in default settings is not encrypted so its wide open to man in the middle attacks. This base line issues brings big problems.

    This is the problem Microsoft talks big on simple management but as soon as you start checking security and conflicts of using what Microsoft suggests you find yourself running into hell.

  112. Deaf Spy says:

    They are diversifying as rapidly as they can because that cash cow is drying up.
    Exactly! And the growing revenue means they are very successful in doing so. They didn’t even experience a temporary loss of revenue, which is so common in any diversification and restructuring.

    I have little personal inclination towards MS, and quite some grudge as a developer. But, I cannot argue with the financial figures. They are simply doing great.

  113. oldfart says:

    “Free machines burdened with “7”

    The only burden was to robert pogson cheapskate and refusnik, who never bothered to properly learn how to properly maintain and manage windows desktops to the extent that he had already learned to maintain and manage linux desktops. The complaint that it was not your job is bogus – if you could spend the time learning how to manage linux hosts via cli commands amdf tinkering off hours, you could have done the same with windows!

    Windows 7 can be managed on a shoestring via a combination of windows freeware and judicious use of powershell scripts once WinRM is set up on the desktops being managed. Applications under windows 7 can be locked down set up to run from unprivileged accounts.

  114. oldfart says:

    “No, it doesn’t. ”

    INteresting. When I see text followed by a * I look for a qualifier – That qualifier follows

    So then relevant portion reads

    = Free* (Win 7 NOT included) * Windows 7 Required

    Which I interpret as: we dont include windows but you are going to need it anyway, so its available for $8 for the machine option.

    And of course you interpret it differently.

  115. oldfart wrote, “it clearly says windows 7 is required”.

    No, it doesn’t. That’s if the school requires “7”, ie. their choice. It’s on a form with a radio button. See? I’ve checked “No” for you:

    Here’s the HTML for it:
    “<tr><td bgcolor=#eeeeee class=ef1table23 valign=top>*Windows 7 Required</td><td bgcolor=#eeeeee class=ef1table23><input class=’ef1field23′ onclick=’return udRO23(29);’ onchange=’return udRO23(29);’ onkeyup=’return udRO23(29);’ type=radio name=’efm23_29′ value=’Yes = $8′>  Yes = $8<br/><input class=’ef1field23′ onclick=’return udRO23(29);’ onchange=’return udRO23(29);’ onkeyup=’return udRO23(29);’ type=radio name=’efm23_29′ value=’ No = N/C’>  No = N/C<br/></td>”

    It clearly says “7” is not included unless you click “required” on the following radio button. I would have set up the form differently with “No” set by default using the “checked” attribute or eliminated any confusion by having two lines in the form one for Free machines with no OS and one for Free machines burdened with “7”.

  116. oiaohm wrote, “Yes 6 dollars every time a kid destroys a sticker and that is if you notice not including all the hours you waste checking.”

    Maintaining lists of stickers is just one of dozens of ways M$ keeps people in slavery. At my last place, I was the first person ever to maintain a database of the machines and their stickers, yet the trolls here call me incompetent. Many of the stickers were near the floor so I had to crawl around reading them and copying the numbers. I think about 20% of the stickers were worn/illegible/gone. I immediately converted those machines to GNU/Linux for infrastructure: servers, Clonezilla backups/images, and thin clients. All the other keys did work, though. That damned EULA made as much work for me as all the malware did and it was impossible for me to comply with the letter of it with the limited storage I had and no installation media.

  117. oiaohm wrote, “Securable is only true because Linux is still using X11.”

    There are simple things that can be done to secure X like X over SSH and keeping X off the terminal server. Misusing X makes it insecure. Using it wisely is no problem otherwise all kinds of folks would not be using GNU/Linux like Google, IBM, Munich, … None of them are complaining of losing control of millions of PCs as people do with TOOS.

  118. Deaf Spy wrote, “How does continuously growing revenues and profits translate into “getting out of business”?”

    Their profits are growing everywhere but in the client division. They are diversifying as rapidly as they can because that cash cow is drying up.

  119. luvr says:

    “Low-End Desktop (Duo Core 1.6 – 2.4GHz) = Free* (Win 7 NOT included)”

    followed by

    “*Windows 7 Required”

    Would you care to explain?

    That’s easy: Reading comprehension issues.
    Nowhere does it say that “Windows 7 [is] required.”

    If you had sufficient reading skills, you wouldn’t have needed me go explain that it gives you a choice: “Windows 7 required – Yes =$8; No = N/C.”
    I expected that even you would have understood, but that’s what those radio buttons are there for, you know…

  120. Deaf Spy says:

    Ops, sorry, I gave him quite a hint. Anyone with more than one operational brain cell would get it and feel strong to come back to the point, but…

    Let’s focus on the sealed keyword for now, shall we, Fifi? Robert?

  121. Deaf Spy says:

    After the pathetic debacle round here on exceptions that escape C++ destructors
    Please be fair, dear Doctor. He couldn’t put a finger on branch-prediction with so many hints. How can you expect poor Fifi to grasp the concept of stack unwinding in general, automatic destructor calls on stack unwinding, and stack unwinding on exception? Such a mess of stack unwindings!

  122. Deaf Spy says:

    Yes, they’re getting out of the client OS business
    How does continuously growing revenues and profits translate into “getting out of business”? No book on microeconomics and capital budgeting describes such a phenomenon.

  123. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    Windows 7 is also orders more securable and manageable.
    Please provide Cite on manageable There has not be a single case of this.

    Linux biggest advantage is how well you can clonezilla it. Securable is only true because Linux is still using X11.

    There are Windows admins who like to claim that Windows is better on management. There is just study after study not performed by Microsoft proving the exact other way.

    Ask Windows admins todo simple things.

    Ok oldfart I want you to perform 50 different operations on 50 different computers and monitor success or failure.
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/clusterssh/
    Linux its simple.

    Yes is funny to laugh at Linux for being console driven but its the cli driven that makes your life maintaining a large network of them nicer.

  124. oiaohm says:

    oldfart here is something nasty. People always want to make out Linux people as dump-ester diving for computer parts. The reality I have this very much in common with most Linux people that I have away acquired my computers new. Ok I might run my computer for 10 years +.

    Schools are the largest dumpester divers I know. If a computer in a most public schools in under 6 years old you are lucky or you are in administration.

    oldfart really Robert link was a simple read. For someone who claims to have been in the industry not to know about.
    http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/licensing/sblicensing/Pages/refurbisher_programs.aspx

    Basically the machines required information to transfer existing Windows license is lost. So the second hand machine normally requires a new license by the re-furbisher program. But still that is a case sticker. I really wish Microsoft would get around that COA sticker was not required if product key was placed in BIOS by OEM.

    The new sticker under the re-furbisher program costs 6 dollars so they are charging 2 dollars for fitting.

    Yes 6 dollars every time a kid destroys a sticker and that is if you notice not including all the hours you waste checking. A few of the schools here are registered refurbisher companies.

  125. oldfart says:

    “If a school doesn’t want TOOS, the PC is $0. If they want TOOS, the PC is $8…
    (bla bla bla, etc.)”

    Yet it clearly says windows 7 is required. the amount of which is hardly a tragedy. Windows 7 is also orders more securable and manageable. Even without active directory. and if if had Done their done their job, then these machines will function as a perfectly acceptable platform for anyone willing to expend the amount of effort understanding windows desktop management that you put into teaching y0urself Linux desktop management.

    But then again I know you don’t want to hear that.

    To be perfectly blunt your ability to impartially assess anything after windows xp is IMHO non-existent.

  126. oldfart wrote, “Would you care to explain?”

    If a school doesn’t want TOOS, the PC is $0. If they want TOOS, the PC is $8.

    These are low-end PCs being pretty solid but cast off by businesses after about 6 years. CFS refurbishes them and installs an OS or not. When I dealt with them there was no option. It was XP on everything. I think M$ donates the licences. The paperwork we had was from CFS, not M$. It wasn’t a licence, just documentation of the source. There was no documentation on any of the PCs before I arrived, just most had a sticker for Home or Pro.

  127. oldfart says:

    ” I’d bet it’s because a lot of teachers want GNU/Linux so it’s just a waste of time to install TOOS… I like that.”

    Robert Pogson you neglect to tell the whole story. I include below thr relevant exerpy from your cite:

    “Low-End Desktop (Duo Core 1.6 – 2.4GHz) = Free* (Win 7 NOT included)”

    followed by

    “*Windows 7 Required”

    Would you care to explain?

  128. DrLoser wrote, “the slightest problem in making them work, out of the box, with no licensing issues and no need to pave them over, isn’t it?”.

    The only reason I ever tried GNU/Linux was because Lose ’95 on decent HP machines was crashing hourly in my classroom. I had zero problems with IT after installing GNU/Linux on identical hardware except that I couldn’t get NFS to work… I used e-mail to share files… It worked a damned sight better than Lose ’95. I’ve had a lot of problems with 2K, ME, XP, Vista and “7”. Very few problems with GNU/Linux on hundreds of machines. Others have had similar experiences. Why do you think teachers all over the world have taken the trouble to migrate? Then there are all the businesses, governments and ordinary folk who did the same.

    e.g.

    Interestingly,… I just visited CFS Manitoba and find they no longer provide TOOS for $0. They supply NoOS or “7” for $8. Competition is coming to CFS. Now why do you think they did that? I’d bet it’s because a lot of teachers want GNU/Linux so it’s just a waste of time to install TOOS… I like that.

  129. DrLoser wrote, “You never once talked to Microsoft about an educational package, did you?”

    Nope. No telephone in my labs except one place. M$ was part of the problem, not the solution. Even Bill Gates could not keep TOOS running, don’t you know? What was I, an amateur, by your account, to do about stuff I could not change?

    Let’s spell it out. In some schools I was working five days a week with no “spares” and the office was closed when I wasn’t required to be in my classroom. There was not time to play phone-tag with anyone out there. I had to deal with issues at hand the best way I could as did everyone else there. You weren’t there.

  130. oiaohm says:

    FIFI please find a cite showing Android using the word keyword Sealed.

    http://developer.android.com/reference/javax/crypto/SealedObject.html

    Yes sealed in Android is in fact something very different.

    C# sealed and Java is Final. Teachers incorrect use the C# term for Java based include Android all the time. There is in fact a difference in meaning.

    By the way it is possible to override a function or class marked Final inside Java or inside Android runtime. Its just horible you have to create 2 full wrapper classes. Java and Android both support class load order over ride.

    Class file contains a new class name directly calling all the functions of the class you have a final block in basically a proxy. The next class to load has a class named identical to the first one but accesses all it features by the proxy class. Yes Java magical deleting of final flags.

    FIFI I ignored the sealed point because it pointless. Final flag in java is inconvenience. Sealed in something like C# were you cannot have 2 classes the same name inside the 1 application is more of a problem. So those writing API for java normally using Final flag heavily because they know if someone is desperate enough they can over ride the Final flag. Yes Java include the idea of normal Unix loaders preloader override.

  131. DrLoser, having no clue, wrote, “On $1,000 per annum?”

    CFS provided any school in Manitoba 20 used PCs with XP for $0. CFS runs on government grants and volunteer labour, mostly retirees. Up north, we did need to pay the freight from Winnipeg but the cost of freight on 1000 lb on a truck carrying 20000lb wasn’t much. I think some of those communites have dozens of trucks deliver freight and fuel over the winter from Jan to Mar and 1000lb is just a small part of it. No administrator ever told me they could not afford the freight. Many told me they could not afford any other spending on IT except toner for the printers. I could usually bring in $100 worth of PSUs, cable or connectors under “petty cash”. One or two places would donate other stuff like hard drives or mice once a year but we had to take what they offered instead of what we needed. I actually took in a bunch of SATA drives when all we had were PATA motherboards but I did that knowing future machines could use them. There was more than $1K spent on IT but it was hidden in other local budgets and in higher levels in the food chain with no local input. For instance, the ISP gave us 100mbits/s switches when I informed them all we had was 10mbits/s “collectors”. They were feeding the whole community through our racks so it’s the least they could do. That, of course, was from federal government funding for connecting remote communities, nothing to do with the school’s budget but it wouldn’t have happened if I had not pushed for it. Similarly, our print-server came from the tech maintaining the photocopier. He got paid by the page printed so he loved a network-connected printer. I supplied a cable over the wall to our rack. He climbed the ladder…

    So, the North is not about some budget based rationally on needs but ad hoc measures to deal with 7 levels of bureaucracy sometimes in competition with other branches. The extreme case of that was putting 7 servers in a closet with no ventilation. Of course they overheated. I wanted to knock a hole through the wall or door but was forbidden because the building was owned by a different government department and such requests take about two years. I was on a one-year contract. The door was left open giving students access to the servers and the official installation media paid for by $40K… I kept my door open often so I could see any student entering that closet. I caught more than one but there could have been a dozen that I didn’t catch because I actually had a day job and taught diligently enriching the curriculum the way FLOSS empowered me to do. My students could strip/reassemble/clean/repair PCs and install software right down to the OS thanks to Debian GNU/Linux.

  132. oldfart wrote, “what you did with linux others with windows experience equivalent to you linux experience and who didnt treat acquiring tech knowledge as the equivalent of taking castor oil could have done the same thing with your experiences.”

    That’s wrong on so many fronts. One, the EULA. It forbids making copies except possibly a backup. I had XP Home and XP Pro on four different models of PC. I had only room for three or four backups (40gB hard drive on a single machine). What would a “pro” do? Two, lack of installation media. Without a proper licence there was no legal way to obtain these and we needed IT to work at the time, not weeks/months/years later. What would a “pro” do with no money to throw at M$? Sophos could not keep malware off the machines. I routinely found machines with hundreds of infections despite running checksummed executables. That was a product recommended by the ISP and provided at great expense by taxpayers. What’s a “pro” to do when machines keep getting messed up? I was spending many hours unpaid on that crap week after week. I arrived in September and I struggled to keep XP going until about November. With GNU/Linux there were zero serious problems for two years while we increased the number of machines several-fold. The users were ecstatic to actually have IT that worked and it was almost effortless to keep it running. I basically had nothing more than a few requests to add certain applications for the whole rest of the years, stuff like vocabulary-building games for the youngsters and a system for automating attendance and report-cards for seniors. The hardware all worked. There was no malware scanning and no malware. Heck. I didn’t even have firewalls on the clients. The machines flew. The only real problems after the switch were networking. I put in new switches in place of hubs and a loop was discovered. A couple of cables were found dead. I had not enough cable and connectors to fix them so we went wireless. These were problems that had no effect on people with not a single working PC in their classrooms. When I arrived the lab had not been used for more than a year. It worked immediately that I started using GNU/Linux on a pile of “dead” PCs.

    You idiots may claim I was amateurish/unprofessional but even remote northern schools have consultants visit on all matter educational from time to time and their mouths dropped open when they saw and used the IT that school had. All over the North there were schools with ~24PCs in the lab and nothing more. My school had three times as many PCs working day in and day out, and a powerful server supplying infrastructure and databases to the school. Our network was productive rather than connective. The more services I added the less we needed to rely on the Internet connection which was shared with the whole community glued to FaceBook. My students learned a lot about IT and software that worked for them instead of exploiting them. They got to read and think about the EULA and the GPL. They saw firsthand how good GNU/Linux is. They already knew what a pain TOOS was. That’s why absolutely no one objected to paving over that other OS. It didn’t work for them. NIB. At home. At school.

    The biggest factor in effective use of IT in schools is to have enough seats to do the job. With XP we could not have effective IT. It just wasn’t possible even with many hours of work expended. I worked in many different schools and only two had XP working half decently. One used a whitelist on the ISP. Another used Ghost to fix whatever went wrong and never updated… That school also pulled the plug when the waves of malware were at their peak. Another did pretty well with Deep Freeze but IT-support was closely held and unresponsive to local needs. I left because students could not print despite many tickets files. It turned out those tickets were transcribed twice before reaching the techs… They had no idea students could not print despite visiting the school monthly. I was not allowed to tweak the server to fix that so I left. It was three months that my classes in the lab were interrupted every five minutes by a student/teacher unable to print in the lab and I had to go through a ballet of clicks that were reset by Deep Freeze at the next reboot. I set up the lab with my own server so students did not need to print for my classes. They sent me files over the network, but everyone else in that huge school who wanted to print in the lab had to interrupt me. Those were MSCEs running that division-wide IT organization. How professional was that?

    I left a lot of schools because they did not meet the needs of students and I could not do it all. I was always able to get a job with a reference from the principal I had left because everyone who knew me knew I could teach and do magic with IT. You twits have no clue.

  133. oiaohm says:

    Thats nice, but Linux only apps that one “must” have are not really as crucial or dominant in a world where there are far more applications that are available cross platform (Linux, Mac OS, Windows).
    Arcad is kind critical in Germany as it the one the government over there uses. So building plans must work with it.

    Oldfart dominant is fine. Crucial depends where you live. Some Linux only desktop applications are critical to use in particular countries.

    Oldfart the cost platform defence is very weak you because Linux/Mac OS/Windows applications turns out the most cases stable and fastest version is on Linux. Also some get interesting NX cad has cluster management when installed on OS X and Linux yet you install the Windows version no cluster management only operational as a slave unit. So Windows versions of a lot of these cross platform programs have features stripped.

    oldfart Robert has mentioned this before. The biggest problem with Windows in schools is you COA stickers. Bored kids remove them from machines. So a machine ordered with Windows 7 may not stay legal to use with Windows 7 in a school environment. Basically just because you can buy something does not mean you can keep on using it.

    Schools really need volume licenses that are full licenses.

    For instance it is trivial to issue a reboot or shutdown of an entire lab of machines from one powershell script. In fact you might even be able to find a free powershell script these days on the web pre-written for you.
    You have never tried that on mass have you oldfart. 1 to 2 windows computer every now and again will not shut down this way. Cause will be network stack screw up. Also most old labs built for the age of dos have 1 master switch that cuts power to the complete room add brats you know what is going to happen.

  134. DrLoser wrote, “along the lines of paying for twenty Windows licences at”.

    I could not find any evidence that we had any licences for TOOS in the school. No PO, nothing but the stickers. As far as I know the software licences were a donation and no one had bothered to make backups or re-installation media. I was teaching. I had no time to put M$ back together. The EULA was so restrictive that it may not even have been legal to use Clonezilla as I did. Some machines were XP Home. All were XP SP1. No one had updated them for years. I updated to SP3+, FAT to NTFS, and kept a backup per model of PC. It was all useless waste of time as the malware infections kept piling up. I installed Sophos to no effect but more difficult updates. I first converted the stickerless machines to create infrastructure and when the re-imaging failed to keep them running for more than a few weeks, the decision was made by the principal to convert to GNU/Linux. Nothing else made sense. The principal had a new PC with “7” and I did dual-boot that one. The boss ran GNU/Linux. It worked for him. All your theoretical arguments are worthless. We needed IT then not next year after wedging something into the budget. With GNU/Linux we could afford proper IT and it worked very well with resources all over the LAN that were not there before. The lab ran on a Xeon X-series server that also was file-server to the school. Later we got some new machines with XP. We paved them over right out of the box. I taught the students how to do that in class. They were cool with that. None of them liked XP. GNU/Linux on our old machines was faster than XP on those new dual-core AMD64 machines with 512 MB hard drives thanks to GNU/Linux being a proper multi-user/multitasking/networked OS.

  135. DrLoser says:

    It’s absolutely astonishing that everybody else who ordered 20 computers from CFS didn’t have the slightest problem in making them work, out of the box, with no licensing issues and no need to pave them over, isn’t it?
    Must be something to do with the Aurora Borealis.

  136. DrLoser says:

    As you well know doctor, these machines came supplied with a standardized image of TOOS.

    True, oldfart; I’ve just looked it up.

    The current image of choice appears to be Windows 7.

    A little too complicated for Robert, I think. Let alone a little too rock-solid.

  137. DrLoser says:

    Your heart-warming little tale of when the School Principal walked in and saw you Educating your Deprived Youngsters on how to clean out the fluff from dismantled computers with the aid of nothing but Q-Tips and Their Own Beautiful Imagination, Robert?
    Did this happen before or after you took shipment of 20 computers apparently full of fluff?
    Now, think carefully. It might have been a beginner’s mistake. We can all sympathise with ordering 20 computers and inadvertently having to use underage slave labour to clean the fluff out.
    Once, yes, once is regrettable, but obviously the upside is that it is a learning experience for the next time you’re on the dog and bone asking for twenty fresh new desktops.
    Twice? As Oscar Wilde might put it, twice looks like carelessness.

  138. DrLoser says:

    But then again, what with bean-counters being bean-counters, you can’t really rely on being able to pass a license audit, can you?
    What with … and remind me, Robert, you made a big deal out of this … a ridiculous lack of Microsoft Certified Windows Installation media hanging around.
    And no storage space for same. Huge waste of storage space, is twenty copies of three CDs with a shiny license number attached.
    And the usual bills of lading etc, which Robert, as the purchasing officer for those 20 desktops, would presumably receive and file away.

    Well, you know …

    The dog ate my homework.

  139. oldfart says:

    “I twice ordered the limit of 20 machines per annum from Computers for schools and it took an hour or two to re-image those when they arrived.”

    Interestingly enough this same group noe has the option of shipping Windows 7 installed for those who wish it.

    http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cfs-ope.nsf/frm-eng/NGRR-8H2K7M

    ANd as anyone who actually cares to know can tell you, Windows 7 is orders of magnitude more manageable on a shoestring that even Windows XP – The tech is both easy to come on the internet.

    For instance it is trivial to issue a reboot or shutdown of an entire lab of machines from one powershell script. In fact you might even be able to find a free powershell script these days on the web pre-written for you.

    And note that there is no linux on desktops needed.

    As far as servers and file storage are concerned, I’ve been partial to creating appliances with Openfiler for the one school that I volunteered in. ANd that was only because they couldnt get funding right away for the $200.00 Networked NAS box that I showed then, but the had a spare machine with storage to burn.

  140. DrLoser says:

    Robert, being unwilling to put even one minute of effort into machines so configured, simply paved them over…

    Well, I’m not much of a one for the awkward things that bean-counters do. You know, along the lines of paying for twenty Windows licences at … Robert has a better idea of this, I’m sure, but let’s just guess at $50 each … and then wantonly throwing that asset away.

    Let me see, what does 20 x $50 come to? Ooh, I know!

    An entire year of Easterville’s IT budget, according to Robert. All gone up in a puff of smoke in a very efficient FLOSS two hours flat.

    Naturally the option of dual-booting or (say) XCygwin was entirely out of the question for these twenty fine, out-of-the-box, freshly-delivered, perfectly acceptable Intel desktops?

  141. oldfart says:

    “Did you consider changing your supplier?”

    As you well know doctor, these machines came supplied with a standardized image of TOOS. Robert, being unwilling to put even one minute of effort into machines so configured, simply paved them over with the environment that he felt A) made his job/life easier and B) allowed him to remain underthe impression that windows tech stopped with the last version of windows (I believe Windows 3.x) that he actually put in any time with outside of work.

  142. oldfart says:

    ” We got to use IT instead of fixing it.”

    And I hare to inform you of this Robert Pogson, what you did with linux others with windows experience equivalent to you linux experience and who didnt treat acquiring tech knowledge as the equivalent of taking castor oil could have done the same thing with your experiences.

    And by the time you retired that tech knowledge was available to any who were willing to look for it and was not harder to work out that what you did with linux cli based tech.

  143. DrLoser says:

    Off on a tangent, and I apologise in a way, but it’s one of your pedagogical interests, Robert.

    Did you have any success teaching your students Pascal?

  144. DrLoser says:

    This “re-imaging” thing, Robert.

    Do you know of any sane purchasing department, anywhere in the world, that would spend “the maximum,” let us stipulate the cost of 20 computers, on hardware that arrives on the doorstep in dire need of a re-image?

    Did you consider changing your supplier?

    Or even suing them?

  145. DrLoser says:

    I twice ordered the limit of 20 machines per annum from Computers for schools and it took an hour or two to re-image those when they arrived.

    On $1,000 per annum?

    How perfectly extraordinary, Robert!

    I will leave Dougie to work out what 1000/20/2 comes to.

    Never mind. I’m pretty sure each and every student got their $25 worth. Apart from the questionable IT teaching, of course.

  146. DrLoser says:

    My entire budget for IT was often less than $1K for an entire school.

    And as has been pointed out many, many, times, Robert …

    You never once talked to Microsoft about an educational package, did you?

  147. DrLoser, desperately trying to win any point, wrote, “Not pratting around as a snake-oil salesman with duct tape for half their paid time.”

    After putting in GNU/Linux at my last place, I barely spent any time at all on IT. I would check every system in the place and it was running. I carried on teaching. I did teach maths and information processing at the last position before I retired. I don’t think I had any Duct Tape there except in my apartment for packing boxes for the move out. I used a local mirror to reduce bandwidth to the outside, openSSH to manage all the PCs, and APT to install/update software. How long do you think that took? I had it all scripted. The biggest task of the installation was re-imaging. I was doing that already to support XP and I did not do it over the network but by moving boxes to/from the lab. That was a couple of days work on weekends/evenings and it was done. The GNU/Linux machines just kept humming. Students and teachers were quite satisfied with the performance compared to no IT at all and XP slowing down all the time. I twice ordered the limit of 20 machines per annum from Computers for schools and it took an hour or two to re-image those when they arrived. They were “desktop” models that could be stacked 10-20 high and I only had to move cables and boot them to get the job done with Clonezilla. I think it was ~10minutes per machine, during which time I could do other things. The mirror was automated. Apt-get was run on schedule. It was boring. It was good. We got to use IT instead of fixing it.

  148. DrLoser says:

    I’m testing your 4 day theory.

    It was a six day theory, old fart, albeit on a different subject. Which particular stupefying bit of ignorance was Fifi displaying at the time?

    Thinks, thinks … there are so many. Wait, it was Deaf Spy’s challenge on the paradox of parallelism, wasn’t it?

    The two cases are not comparable. Fifi was given at least five huge hints for that one. I remember Deaf Spy getting quite aggrieved on my fifth hint …

    … three days before Fifi finally twigged.

    Hmmm.

    Come to think of it, oldfart, your guess is well-informed as Fifi goes.

    I’m still sticking by mine, though.

  149. DrLoser says:

    And to make this perfectly clear, Robert. I am talking about the situation in 2015.

    Not the situation in 1995 or whenever. Times have moved on.

    Unlike your dreary personal reminiscences of Tough Times In T’North.

  150. DrLoser says:

    That’s preposterous. The typical small school in the North has 150 students with most having around 300. $30 per student is $thousands more than those schools spend on IT annually.

    On one bucket of the budget, perhaps, Robert. But, as I have pointed out, probably less than 50% of what they spend on a manual labourer like you.

    Isn’t automation a fine thing?

    Don’t you feel that you would have been better employed teaching your students physics, maths, engineering, welding, and other knowledge gleaned from your lifetime experience?

    Because, to me, that is what a graduate from a good quality University should be doing as a teacher.

    Not pratting around as a snake-oil salesman with duct tape for half their paid time.

  151. oldfart says:

    “My workload dropped significantly using GNU/Linux…”

    This is all fine and good, but it is irrelevant to the wider point being made, which is that is is beginning to look like Microsoft , far from going under as you hoped, actually appears to be adapting in ways that should guarantee that their existing base stays put and may even allow them to attract sow of those who either stayed away from or couldn’t afford the platforms that run commercial desktop applications.

    Its all good 😉

  152. oldfart wrote, “$30 per year per student is well within the budgets of many poorer schools, who would now have a real choice between a polished supported solution and the hacked up pile of crap that you are pushing.”

    That’s preposterous. The typical small school in the North has 150 students with most having around 300. $30 per student is $thousands more than those schools spend on IT annually. I’ll bet M$’s salesmen will be beating the bushes getting governments/funding agencies to foot the bill but there’s no way that’s in the budget for most these days.

    Further, many millions are using GNU/Linux desktops with satisfaction. The crap is all in your head.

  153. DrLoser wrote, “$50 per student per year.”

    You jest. My entire budget for IT was often less than $1K for an entire school. We could get legacy PCs for $0+freight and by putting GNU/Linux on them had all the software we needed. Cloud? Our bandwidth started around dial-up speed around 2000 and increased to ~300KB/s where I last worked. There’s no way you could run ~100 thin clients over that connection. Nope. GNU/Linux was the way to go. Download and cache stuff in the off-hours and serve it locally.

    Being in the North rather limits one to satellite. It’s typically 50 miles or more to the next community so some towers could give point to point relays but there are jurisdictional issues. The northern communities are mostly funded by the federal government and the land between is property of the provincial government. You’d have to negotiate a deal between all the players to get anything done. Think the next decade… Satellite has unique issues like solar noise, snow/ice/wind. Then there’s satellite “footprint”. In the North we were near the edge of coverage so extra large dishes were needed, with more problems with snow/ice/wind… Believe me GNU/Linux and Debian was the best solution we could have. Air transportation ranged from $400 to $4K per round-trip. Air freight was often over $1/lb. Trucking stuff in the winter was the way to go. Free PCs delivered that way were our salvations. Putting in a network was another matter. Fortunately the federal government provide most schools a “decent” copper LAN, with one or two RJ-45 jacks per classroom.

    DrLoser, needing a reality check, also wrote, “Half of Robert’s time, as a teacher who should have been teaching rather than grubbing around with broken IT, comes out as $20,000 per year, and I am under-estimating.”

    Nope. IT was usually, “other duties as assigned” in the contract and only once or twice was I compensated with extra pay or down-time from teaching. The last place I worked gave me one class off per cycle, which was welcome. With XP it wasn’t nearly enough. With GNU/Linux it was about right. My workload dropped significantly using GNU/Linux. Before my arrival, “dead” PCs (=TOOS wouldn’t boot) accumulated at the rate of a few a year. The number of slooowwwwinnnng downs was 1 or 2 per week. When I left, they had several times as many PCs as when I arrived and they all worked. I don’t think I ever had to reimage a GNU/Linux PC there although I did once or twice with the server with major reconfigurations as new hardware was available.

    DrLoser also wrote, “$20,000 per year”.

    Double that would not even pay a novice. I was paid >$100K per annum in the Arctic, >$60K in the provinces. The major costs to schools in the North are salaries, energy and freight/transportation. IT only makes it to the budget if there is actually a school in operation. Bad weather, equipment failure, vandalism etc. can wreck a budget. e.g. I was at one place where the winter ice would not support the trucks one year so every drop of fuel had to be flown in: heating, diesel-generation, motive fuel…. You can’t imagine the cost of all that mileage, overtime, danger-pay, and insurance did to the budget. Despite the possibility of geothermal heating, most schools still burn oil up there and until this year it was a critical component of the cost. I was paid to teach.

    IT was a fringe benefit to my employer and a great asset to me and other teachers in getting the job done. When no one else would/could do it, I had to do it. I believe one of the reasons I was hired at my last position was that half the school’s PCs weren’t working and flying in repaired or new ones would have cost ~$10K. I was a bargain. I got all but one working. It had a dead PSU. The others were all TOOS being messed up and there were no installation media anywhere in the school to properly re-install it. I did my best to re-image from the best copy I could find but it didn’t work even with iron-clad anti-malware. Hence GNU/Linux was the only viable option. It worked beautifully.

  154. oldfart says:

    “I’m guessing … 12:00 GMT Friday? A dollar say it’s after that. Evens.”

    I’m thinking its closer to about 1 day later 12:00 GMT Saturday –

    I’m testing your 4 day theory.

  155. DrLoser says:

    And the whole point of “Java sealed classes/functions” was that the concept is easily googled.

    After the pathetic debacle round here on exceptions that escape C++ destructors — Fifi covered himself with particular shame on that one — I thought I’d start at the easy end and work our way up.

    After all, everybody here wants to learn how to examine FLOSS code properly, don’t they?

    (Apart from Dougie, who seems to believe that Android runs on prune juice or something.)

  156. DrLoser says:

    Any chance we can get a gentleman’s bet on how long it takes our resident Australian (you should excuse the term) “expert” to find it?

    It’s been a day so far, but Fifi is claiming the Queef “get out of jail free” SpiderMonkey thing.

    He will no doubt choose some arbitrary non-monkeyed post to make an arbitrary comment filled with arbitrary pointless google-blats, however. So, no change there at all, really.

    I’m guessing … 12:00 GMT Friday? A dollar say it’s after that. Evens.

  157. DrLoser says:

    Of course, the added benefit to the student — every student, each and every one of the 200 students in this scenario — is that they would have access to said software outside schoolat no extra cost!.

    And outside the clutches of their maniac IT supervisor. (Whilst still having the choice to use Debian, should they so wish.)

    Choice at no cost is a good thing, isn’t it?

  158. oldfart says:

    “Anybody here got any explanation of why Android class libraries use the keyword sealed, incidentally?
    Thought not.”

    Surprising, its easily googled. Any chance we can get a gentleman’s bet on how long it takes our resident Australian (you should excuse the term) “expert” to find it?

  159. DrLoser says:

    while $30.00 per year may still be outside the budget of some of the poorest, $30 per year per student is well within the budgets of many poorer schools, who would now have a real choice between a polished supported solution and the hacked up pile of crap that you are pushing.

    And there’s another very interesting observation, oldfart. 2015 isn’t 1995, no matter how Robert chooses to pretend it is.

    The Microsoft Cloud wasn’t around back then. Now it is. Let’s cost out the educational software for, say, 200 students in a remote area of northern Manitoba, shall we?

    I think, if you can manage a decent connection to the Internet (possibly satellite-based, possibly something else), you could have the Perfect Thin-Client Solution here.

    All you need in 2015 in Easterville is that Internet connection, that Cloud Solution, and (say) $50 per student per year.

    The software comes out as $10,000 per year, and I am over-estimating.

    Half of Robert’s time, as a teacher who should have been teaching rather than grubbing around with broken IT, comes out as $20,000 per year, and I am under-estimating.

    It looks like the automated professional commercial solution (Microsoft) beats the manual labour amateur handyman-with-duct-tape solution (Robert) like a red-headed step-child on this one, doesn’t it?

  160. DrLoser says:

    Anybody here got any explanation of why Android class libraries use the keyword sealed, incidentally?
    Thought not.

  161. oldfart says:

    “And microwaved mac-cheese is delicious!”

    But its really bad at handling documents… Pity.

  162. DrLoser says:

    Oops, did I let my plutocratic bias show?

    Five dollars a month, Doug-nut.

    That’s thirty days’ more mac-cheese for you, until you have to resort to the Salvation Army!

    It’s all good! (Chuckle!)

  163. oldfart says:

    “It’s just not necessary nor desirable to be locked in to M$ and “partners”. That’s real.”

    Actually Robert Pogson, you don’t know anything more than there is an uptick in web site hits. And that most of them are from devices that run what you refer to as Android/Linux but which the rest of us know as simply Android a commercial OS whose user space has zero to do with you beloved freebie that you would love in your heart of hearts to shove down all of our throats.

    What appears to be a bigotry driven by you cheapness is preventing you from taking delivery on the fact that beyond all of your posted “successes”, there is an even larger number of existing users that will now have the ability to keep using the tools that work for them from their tablets and smart phones. Those users will also be surfing the web and using web based applications, but will now not just be limited to the meager offerings of FOSS.

    Worse for you are offerings like this:

    https://products.office.com/en-us/academic/compare-office-365-education-plans

    while $30.00 per year may still be outside the budget of some of the poorest, $30 per year per student is well within the budgets of many poorer schools, who would now have a real choice between a polished supported solution and the hacked up pile of crap that you are pushing.

    Lifes a bitch isn’t it….

  164. DrLoser says:

    I can already do all that on my desktop, smartphone and chromebook and THEN, check this out as its the the best feature, I can spend that $5 on lunch! Imagine that, I can spend $5 on lunch!

    Then again, Dougie, with your clearly limited skill-set, $5 per day is the difference between a microwaved mac-cheese and whatever the Salvation Army has left over at the end of the day.

    I think you’re making the right choice there. Needs must.

    And microwaved mac-cheese is delicious!

  165. oldfart wrote, “The client business of those who actually want to or have to use commercial desktop applications will remain where it is for a long time to come.”

    Nope. Everyone is using web applications as much as possible to become platform-independent. e.g. Munich, French police, governments in Italy, Spain, and India. It’s just not necessary nor desirable to be locked in to M$ and “partners”. That’s real. That’s happening. Yesterday, for instance, worldwide, StatCounter only reports 56.5% share of page-views for all forms of That Other OS, phones, tablets, games, legacy PCs…
    Android/Linux, alone, got 20.87%, iOS, 10.11%, GNU/Linux, 1.26%, ChromeOS 0.24%. People have many choices and they are choosing other than M$.

  166. oldfart says:

    “Sorry dude, I am not paying rental fees for software.”

    ANd that is your choice and perfectly OK. No doubt there will be people who don’t really need an office suite enough to be put off by googles clones and are attracted by the fact that it costs them $0. My comment isn’t meant for them or for you Dougie.

    My comment is however to point out that there are a lot of us who will jump at the ability to continue to be able to use Microsoft applications cross platform as appropriate, even if the cost is minimal. MIcrosoft Adaptations of components of its office suite to Android and iOS is probably the smartest thing that they have done in a long time. Now I don’t have to struggle with Googles IMHO half a$$ed inadequate clones of the microsoft office suite, which I hate using because of its myriad inadequacies, even if it IS free!

    So I would contend anyone (i.e. Robert Pogson) who is counting on “linux” (as in android) capturing mindshare from the existing base is kidding themselves.

    Microsoft is going nowhere, and I suspect neither is the rest of the commercial software ecosystem.

  167. dougman says:

    Re: I got offered office 365 (word and excel) on my tablet plus one of my home stations for $5 a month. Thats less than one days round trip subway fare! I get to use word and excel on my tablet and desktop, get some cloud storage and lost some headaches.

    I can already do all that on my desktop, smartphone and chromebook and THEN, check this out as its the the best feature, I can spend that $5 on lunch! Imagine that, I can spend $5 on lunch!

    Sorry dude, I am not paying rental fees for software.

  168. oldfart says:

    “Please note commercial desktop applications are not a Windows only thing either. http://www.arcad.de/site/index.php for example is a Linux commercial desktop application.”

    Thats nice, but Linux only apps that one “must” have are not really as crucial or dominant in a world where there are far more applications that are available cross platform (Linux, Mac OS, Windows).

  169. oldfart says:

    ” So there is no exact reason why using Windows commercial desktop applications equals long term having to use Microsoft product.”

    But that transition applications themselves did not change or only changed after the new OS was in use long enough for people to get used to it. SO there is no reason to assume changing applications in this case.

    “oldfart now remember if you android tablet has larger than 10.1 screen Office 365 solution does not want to work. Yes this includes plugin your tablet into a TV/computer monitor. MS Office has a lot of stupid limitations.”

    As someonw who actually uses a Samsung tablet with Office 365 I can tell you that it works just fine for what it is most useful for – a compatible mobile adjunct to a full desktop.

  170. oiaohm says:

    The client business of those who actually want to or have to use commercial desktop applications will remain where it is for a long time to come.
    oldfart Please remember people migrated from 9x to XP this was a OS core change. So there is no exact reason why using Windows commercial desktop applications equals long term having to use Microsoft product.

    Please note commercial desktop applications are not a Windows only thing either. http://www.arcad.de/site/index.php for example is a Linux commercial desktop application.

    oldfart now remember if you android tablet has larger than 10.1 screen Office 365 solution does not want to work. Yes this includes plugin your tablet into a TV/computer monitor. MS Office has a lot of stupid limitations.

  171. oldfart says:

    “Why sell software, when they can have you lease it forever? Office 365 and Windows 365 would cost someone a few hundred dollars a year.”

    So what if they do transition dougie? I got offered office 365 (word and excel) on my tablet plus one of my home stations for $5 a month. Thats less than one days round trip subway fare! I get to use word and excel on my tablet and desktop, get some cloud storage and lost some headaches. Sounds like a bargain to me.

    And sounds like a winner for them.

  172. oldfart says:

    “Yes, they’re getting out of the client OS business… Their client revenue continues to decline. If it weren’t for the Android “contributions” the client divisions results would be shocking. I’m not shocked. I’m ecstatic.”

    Why?

    The client business of those who actually want to or have to use commercial desktop applications will remain where it is for a long time to come. As the owner and maintainer of the primary platform for those applications, microsoft will continue to be there. The world knows what applications it needs and can afford, and that world that you arrogantly refer to as slaves will continue to purchase and maintain those applications for the foreseeable future, while you continue to celebrate minro perturbations in dubious statistics.

  173. dougman says:

    Re: Pogson, the fact that their revenue grows every year, while Windows is becoming cheaper should be telling you something.

    It states that M$ must compete due to competition. Also, its easy to grow revenue when M$ does not pay taxes

    Robert is correct: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/microsoft-backs-further-away-from-selling-software/

    Why sell software, when they can have you lease it forever? Office 365 and Windows 365 would cost someone a few hundred dollars a year.

  174. Deaf Spy wrote, “the fact that their revenue grows every year, while Windows is becoming cheaper should be telling you something.”

    Yes, they’re getting out of the client OS business… Their client revenue continues to decline. If it weren’t for the Android “contributions” the client divisions results would be shocking. I’m not shocked. I’m ecstatic.

  175. Deaf Spy says:

    Fifi, you never disappoint. Please try to stay focused on the sealed keyword in Java and spare us the usual non-sense about topics which you can’t even understand.

  176. Deaf Spy says:

    Pogson, the fact that their revenue grows every year, while Windows is becoming cheaper should be telling you something.

  177. Deaf Spy, apologizing for M$’s poor showing in mobility, wrote, “Their strategy, shabby and obscure as it comes, it long-term, and they build now a foundation for the next 20-30 years.”

    Regardless of their strategy, they have cut their prices from $100-150 just a few years ago to what, ~$10$ ($2B/200M). That’s competition doing that, not M$’s strategists. In their “good old days” they could name their price and get it. No longer. The monopoly is on its last legs. Even in North America where GNU/Linux is rarely found on retail shelves, it has exceeded 3% of page-views (installed base). That share is growing over 3 percentage points per annum, more than 6million (3% of 200 million PCs) legacy PCs going to GNU/Linux each year. The dam may not have burst but it’s leaking at a great rate. Positive feedback will do the rest. How long will retailers keep GNU/Linux off their shelves in USA/Canada? Not for another Christmas.

  178. oiaohm says:

    So I see FIFI trying to be a distraction. Android can be build using KMS so there is a question if Android will remain an independent graphic stack. There is in fact work to bring unify Android back into a standard DRI/KMS/Mesa stack.

    Really Linux World in convergence is going threw many of the same things Microsoft did merging CE, 9x and NT into 1 OS. Really anyone raising the API differences between Android and General GNU/Linux is over looking the fact both are over time getting closer to each other.

    Universal Windows Apps also has to be taken with a serous grain of salt. Please remember Microsoft is porting .net engines to Linux and OS X. Wait they are not porting it at all.
    http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2015-April/084459.html
    Yes the reality is they are dropping there old .net runtime engine off the cliff because they no longer can keep up with complier improvements with their own teams.

    The result we don’t know if Universal Windows Apps will in time just turn into Universal Apps.

  179. dougman says:

    Deaf Idiot, we are discussing Linux dissing Windows.

    Java is not in the discussion topic.

    So bringing the subject up is a tactic by trolls, such as yourself to bait.

    Eh.

  180. Deaf Spy says:

    Who cares about Java!.

    Perhaps all those who develop for Android, Dogue. Of course, with the little exception of the handful of Xamarin developers, and the PhoneGap crowd that goes for light, sub-optimal little games and apps with limited access to the hardware.

    Fifi, come and help Dougie with the sealed keyword. Your friend needs help here.

  181. Deaf Spy says:

    Think yourself lucky. Because, if there was such a market, then Microsoft phones would have a far larger share of the mobile market than they do.

    Because people like to run Windows applications on desktop computers. and would therefore have a strong compulsion to buy Windows mobile phones.

    This is a very interesting point, which Pogson and the rest here simply fail to grasp.

    Universal Windows Apps. One application runs on Windows desktop, Windows Phone, Windows tablets, Xbox.

    It may be surprising to you Pogson, but MS don’t quite care that WP has about 10% in Europe and about 5% in USA today. Their strategy, shabby and obscure as it comes, it long-term, and they build now a foundation for the next 20-30 years.

    Windows 10 will be one OS for both desktop, tablets and phones. One. Not an OS built on top of Linux kernel with a drastically different GUI, graphics engine, runtime, and API than any Linux distro. It is the same OS: same kernel, same API (WinRT).

    Just food for thought.

  182. oiaohm says:

    Maybe. But only if the potential market for extending a smart phones functionality to be a partial desktop computer replacement is deemed to be greater than the cost to support the expanded function. So far geeks want this kind of function in a phone.
    Oldfart making stuff up again based on history that has change.

    Before wireless docking what Oldfart is saying is true. After wireless docking tech not so much.
    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2473515,00.asp
    The reality is the cost of doing it is insanely light because android turns out to be desktop design.

    There is reason read that the first article carefully.
    http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/secure/2013-02-25-dell-wireless-docking-station
    Then read this one of 2 years earlier. 60Ghz wifi support that can be used for docking or other things.

    The result is your wireless docking stations will support smartphones, tablets and laptops. Only 1 station required to support them all. So this is the change from custom per device docks to 1 dock to rule them all.

    HD content can in fact be done by enhancing the GPU does not require enhancing the CPU. Oldfart its HD content displayed in a 5 inch screen can you really see it. This is why you have chromecast for android but really this is too slow. Hello 60 Ghz wifi required with GPU output redirection. So screen feature of docking station required. Really it snot very much more to implement the protocols for ether-net transport usb and keyboard and mouse functionality as well.

    USB OTG kinda fails. Runs into the same trouble as docking laptops. Yes the ports bugger up. This is also why wireless changing and docking is being looked into. Yes the same wireless charger that charges you phone in time will charge you laptops and tablets.

    Until the invent of the wireless docking it was in fact almost a per device cost to dock and use like a PC.

    The issue is 60Ghz wifi tech is still fairly young but as it becomes more common so will docking smartphones and tablets. This is why there is so much talk about convergence. Phones will eat into the fixed PC market but only after wireless docking becomes more common in them. The writing of is on the wall. Working prototypes exist and the convergence between phone tablet and pc docking stations take away the cost arguement.

  183. dougman says:

    Who cares about Java!

    Windows, Flash and Java are the main culprits for malware. Its funny that since my venture into Linux, not one device has been the scorn of some nefarious piece of software.

    Loser, playing one of his troll tactics, distraction and deflect from the subject.

  184. DrLoser says:

    And I have to accept that all of you, even Dougie, are fast learners and Dedicated Followers of FLOSS.
    Which means, as advocates of Examining and Modifying Gnu/Linux/Android free libre open source code (it’s a limited subset of Android, but well worth the effort of delving into), you will all be able to answer the following question for me.

    Basically, it’s Java. Now, when would you recommend adding the keyword sealed to a class, and why?

  185. DrLoser says:

    No. There is a market. Millions use and buy docks or they would not be produced.

    I see you finally grasp the essential feature of a market, Robert. In a market, people buy things. Not you, obviously … but you are extrinsic to most markets per definitionem.

    There are cheap simple ones that charge the battery and give USB access.

    And boom box functionality, Robert. I see, once again, you are as fast as lightning and have grasped my comment that 90% of mobile phone docking stations are used for charging the battery and the other 10% for boom box equivalents.

    I must say, you’re a fast learner, aren’t you?

    There are massive expensive ones that do convert the thing into a desktop.

    Indeed there are, Robert. Massive and expensive, yet. I’d cavil against “converting the thing into a desktop,” not merely because “the thing” seems to be needlessly insulting to a poor little mobile phone, but also because the end result is a pretty borked desktop, really.

    I’ll accept that my no market thesis was exaggerated for rhetorical purposes. Obviously not very exaggerated, though, otherwise you wouldn’t retort with massive and expensive as a counterpoint.

    Describe to me, please, Robert, the sort of market that you see this massive and expensive mobile phone docking station segment developing into.

    Will it appeal to the Man in the Manitoban Street? I think not.
    Will it appeal to anybody in the Western World who already owns a desktop? I think not.
    Will it appeal to the unwashed masses in the Third World who wish to leverage the no doubt intricate Linux knowledge that they have gleaned through painstaking examination of their Android phones?

    I think not.

  186. dougman says:

    HAH…

    Android is NOT Linux, or it is not THE Linux you are using… wow, what other nonsensical diatribes will M$ trolls think of next?

    Gosh, ChromeOS uses Gentoo Linux as it’s base; which I routinely use as a laptop and a desktop.

    OLD FARTER, wishes Linux would just go away…but alas, its not to be.

  187. DrLoser wrote, “Have you considered using this Awesome Computational Device as … um … a phone, Robert?”

    Nope. I spend 99% of my time at home and the cordless land-line phone works well. I rarely take the gadget out to the bush for GPS or photography. If I broke a leg or fell in a hole, I might try the 911 call… I don’t have any real need of carrying a phone in my pocket as large as my pockets are. I have other things that ride there like a wallet or ear-plugs or some nuts/bolts, you know, stuff I use daily.

  188. DrLoser, trying to claim victory, wrote, “There is no market whatsoever for docking stations that turn a mobile phone into a desktop.”

    No. There is a market. Millions use and buy docks or they would not be produced.

    There are cheap simple ones that charge the battery and give USB access.

    There are massive expensive ones that do convert the thing into a desktop.

  189. DrLoser says:

    Personally, I never talk on my smartphone except to use the voice recorder.

    Have you considered using this Awesome Computational Device as … um … a phone, Robert?

    Quite a lot of us out here like to make phone calls on our mobile phones. Sometimes we talk, sometimes we just listen.

    But it seems awfully sad to forgo the simple pleasure of following the lead of Alexander Graham Bell and, you, know, just talking.

    Try it! It’s quite the sociable activity!

  190. DrLoser says:

    It is Linux. That’s why the USB stuff works out of the box. That’s why networking works out of the box.

    Prance, Prance, The Magic Pink Unicorn!

    Funny how absolutely every other OS in current usage can do exactly as well, isn’t it, Robert?

    Prove me wrong. Borrow a neighbour’s Windows 7 machine, say, for a day, and explain in copious detail how none of this works “out of the box.”

    That’s why the video is so wonderful.

    Video over X is not one of Linux’ finest hours, Robert.

  191. DrLoser says:

    There is but they are luxury items and very expensive. Most of us get along just fine plugging in USB and using Wifi. e.g. We had an Easter party here recently.

    I’m assuming that you had not previously splashed out on these “very expensive luxury items,” Robert.

    Consequently your delighted guests were basically using mobile phones as mobile phones.

    It is not unreasonable to make an educated guess, and assert that not a single one of them used a docking station to convert their mobile phone to a desktop.

    Or, to put it another way, I was right, wasn’t I?

    There is no market whatsoever for docking stations that turn a mobile phone into a desktop.

    Therefore your entire argument about “equivalence” is absolute rubbish.

    And oldfart’s argument, which is basically that manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, and customers see a product differentiation between mobile phones and desktops, is completely vindicated, even on your own evidence.

    Well, that was a fun discussion. Any other Flawless Victory you wish to bring up, Robert?

  192. oldfart, propping up the dead horse he has beaten to death, wrote, “Android uses a Linux kernel but its not and never will be the Linux that you keep pushing.”

    It is Linux. That’s why the USB stuff works out of the box. That’s why networking works out of the box. That’s why the video is so wonderful. The whole world is producing stuff that works with Linux.

  193. oldfart, beating a dead horse, wrote, “The fact that it may have lots of compute power does not mean that it will ever be sold as anything else but a phone first and foremost.”

    Uh, no. Check out recent ads for smartphones. 90% of the ad is about computerized functionality and 10% may be about the phone. That’s hardly a notable feature anymore.

    Here’s an example. A local service provider distributes smartphones. This is what they write about the smartphone. The rest of the ad is about the terms/advantages of their connectivity.
    “The Samsung Galaxy S6 edge redefines design and power. The dual edge screen enhances the user experience by offering fluid access to information and notifications. Inside the dual edge screen is the fastest, most powerful processor ever to be put in a Samsung smartphone. A newly conceived HD display provides brilliant colours and dramatically increased contrast. The dynamic, ultra-responsive camera captures moments faster and more clearly. And whats more, wireless charging offers users the ultimate convenience.Samsung has rethought the way a smartphone can look, feel and perform, and created the Galaxy S6 edge. Next Is Now.”

    The word, “phone” occurs exactly twice as part of “smartphone”. The rest is all about the power of the computer that it is. Talking is just one of a dozen capabilities this thing brings to consumers. That’s why they are willing to pay $hundreds for a chocolate-bar-sized piece of electronics. The “Specifications” page is cluttered but only this tiny bit is related to “phones”:
    “GSM/EDGE Bands:
    850/900/1800/1900MHz
    HSPA+/HSPA Bands:
    850/AWS/1900/2100MHz
    LTE Bands:
    Band 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 12, 17
    Hearing Aid Compatible:Yes
    Talk Time: Up to 17 hours”

    Personally, I never talk on my smartphone except to use the voice recorder. It’s all about being a really portable computer. Apparently Rogers will allow emergency calls even though I don’t have a SIM card. I hope I never have to try that…

  194. oldfart says:

    “It’s Linux underneath. You can do anything with */Linux and a network.”

    Android uses a Linux kernel but its not and never will be the Linux that you keep pushing. For one thing it actually works very well, so long as you don’t attempt to make it what it is not – A general purpose computer.

  195. DrLoser asked a good question, “Why isn’t there a thriving market for mobile phone docking stations, Robert?”

    There is but they are luxury items and very expensive. Most of us get along just fine plugging in USB and using Wifi. e.g. We had an Easter party here recently. The house was full of people. So many asked for the password for Wifi that we produced a sign and stuck it up. There must have been 20 smartphones in use and no docks. Still people browsed the web, answered the phone, e-mailed, took pix/vids and even edited those files. I felt like I was in a convention for robots. Android is appropriately named. While I think a dock is a good way to connect keyboard/mouse/monitor to a smartphone it is not the only way. Bluetooth, USB, and Wifi can all do the job. It’s Linux underneath. You can do anything with */Linux and a network.

  196. oldfart says:

    “Here’s a guy connecting a USB drive to an Android/Linux phone.”

    Which is still 13 years after USB OTG’s implementation it remains as rare a hens teeth. The protocol has to be supported in the phone to work and to this day that support is not universal.

  197. DrLoser says:

    Let’s try again then. If a mobile phone is, in all but name, a desktop computer … and if there is a market out there for people who want to use their mobile phone as a desktop computer …
    … Why isn’t there a thriving market for mobile phone docking stations, Robert?

    Actually, there is. As far as I can see, 90% of mobile phone docking stations are used for little more than recharging the things. And the other 10% are used in order to turn your mobile phone into a boom box (there’s an interesting range of sub-woofers and so on if you search hard enough).

    That remaining 0%? Docking stations to turn your mobile phone into a desktop computer.

  198. oldfart says:

    correction

    The fact that it may have lots of compute power does not mean that it will ever be sold as anything else but a phone first and foremost.

  199. oldfart wrote, “none of the vendors will allow you to lash up an external hard drive”

    Uh, those are just USB drives of immense size. Just plug them in on many phones. Here’s a guy browsing his LAN from Android/Linux and accessing NAS.

    Here’s a guy connecting a USB drive to an Android/Linux phone.

    oldfart wrote, “Manufacturers are not going to cannibalize one product line at the expense of another, nor are they going to just add to support headaches for a product line because they are thinking out of the box.”

    That’s not true at all. These OEMs have recognized that the market is diverse, not monolithic, and they have to ship a bunch of models to cover the market. They produce multiple sizes, multiple shapes/forms, and high, medium and low range devices. The only problem is not being able to sell enough of a product. If they sell enough, they profit. With such stiff competition, margins are slim but they all make money. Android/Linux costs so littla and ARM costs so little that OEMs can quickly generate a new model and bring it to market in a very short time. This market is strong because of the efficiency of FLOSS and open standards and ARM. There is no monopoly and everyone is happy. Live with it.

  200. oldfart says:

    “So, yes, a good smartphone does quite well as a general-purpose PC.”

    Nope. Look at the content of that App store. It is filled with single/limited function apps, many created as loss leaders for the companies whose services that they boost Then you have semi-cripple ware which withholds features until you pay or subscribe. Finally you have some very scaled down app which tries to offer some small subset of a classical App along with good Data export, on the premise that it will be used as the mobile adjunct for a full function desktop app running on a classic desktop computer.

    All of these are mobile oriented applications, because a phone is a mobile device. The fact that it may have what appears does not mean that it will ever be inything else but a phone first and foremost.

  201. antifanboy says:

    “So, yes, a good smartphone does quite well as a general-purpose PC.”
    A phone is
    NOT a PC! Get over it!

  202. oldfart wrote of a smartphone, ” Its compute capabilities are dedicated to specialized streaming content consumption.”

    Uh, ever heard of an “app” store? Google’s Play has hundreds of thousands of apps of all kinds from content-generation to conspicuous consumption. I’ve used a bunch on my old phone: camera, GPS, compass, range-finder, ballistics, sound-recorder, networking cliens and yes, even Google Docs. So, yes, a good smartphone does quite well as a general-purpose PC.

  203. oldfart says:

    “Hence the 8-cored 2.5gHz CPUs with 3gB RAM. That’s not a phone. That’s a computer with an app for telephony.”

    No Robert Pogson, Its a phone with the ability to play back HD content. Its compute capabilities are dedicated to specialized streaming content consumption. IT will never be a general purpose computer for vast majority of its owners.

  204. oldfart says:

    “USB and HDMI take care of most of those “deficiencies”.” Yes they do, but only a very small number high end smartphones have HDMI adaptable USB ports. Few of the smartphones have USB3 and none of the vendors will allow you to lash up an external hard drive. Micro-SD slot is the only way to go right now, and up to 128Gb storage is not shabby.

    But one again Robert Pogson. Your biggest problem is that of product differentiation. Manufacturers are not going to cannibalize one product line at the expense of another, nor are they going to just add to support headaches for a product lin ebecause they are thinking out of the box. Phones will remain primarily phones because it is simpler for them to remain phones.

  205. oldfart wrote, “Most people will not bother because the manufacturers will not push the function. Smartphones are for most people phones with content consumption capabilities.”

    Let’s see. Last year, a billion Android/Linux smartphones sold and only 280million legacy PCs… I’ve seen a lot of people who can barely type text at amazing speeds. They even have gestures/shortcuts on those damned tiny things… You and I may feel we’ve shifted into reverse on a smartphone but a lot of young people with sharp eyes and nimble fingers just accelerate. They also have thinner skin which appears to be an advantage. I’ve seen touch devices that don’t register my touch at all sing and dance for young people.

    Manufacturers are in a very competitive market. They are checking every corner in the hope of finding some means to distinguish their products in the market. They do that not only with software but also hardware. Hence the 8-cored 2.5gHz CPUs with 3gB RAM. That’s not a phone. That’s a computer with an app for telephony.

  206. DrLoser, not thinking out of the box and being blind-folded, wrote, “they lack a realistic screen (1920×1080 at full 32 bit colour is pretty much de rigueur and also dirt cheap), a keyboard, a 100GB Ethernet port, a graphics card (or onboard chip) to run that monster screen …
    … and a docking station.”

    USB and HDMI take care of most of those “deficiencies”. Regular PCs need them too… I don’t know anyone who needs 100gbit/s networking on a client PC these days. It would be nice though. Gigabit/s roughly matches the performance of a 500MB hard drive in transfer rate and beats those in “seeking” if stuff is cached somewhere on the LAN. Smartphones have up to USB3 and 802.11n these days, which is certainly good enough for most. Tablets can hold an RJ-45 jack with no problem of thickness. So, I’ll grant that smartphones can’t beat a state-of-the-art legacy PC all tricked out, but they can make many millions of ordinary folks quite happy. I have multiple members of my family who have smartphones and rarely if ever use a legacy PC. They just don’t have any need. I think much of the world can afford smartphones but not the burden of legacy PCs (space, weight, power, complexity, malware,…). Besides, they like mobility. Docking may be one of the few roles left to many legacy PCs. USB thingies need a place to plug in.

  207. DrLoser says:

    Moore’s Law makes it a certainty, not a distant dream, that smartphones will have all the capabilities of a desktop PC sooner or later.

    You actually have no clue how Moore’s Law worked (back when it worked), do you, Robert? For the purposes of your current argument, Moore’s Law is now dead. Without applications specifically built for parallel computing, mobile phones aren’t going anywhere in the competition. And since the mobile phone market has very nearly no need at all for parallel computing, you’re basically SOOL.

    As far as I can tell they only lack RAM, 1-2gB v 4gb+, and storage, few gB v few TB.

    And as far as anybody who stops to think about it can tell, they lack a realistic screen (1920×1080 at full 32 bit colour is pretty much de rigueur and also dirt cheap), a keyboard, a 100GB Ethernet port, a graphics card (or onboard chip) to run that monster screen …
    … and a docking station.

    Between Deaf Spy and I, we have come up with a fair range of $300 desktops (even laptops) that do what you claim people need. All of that extra, and more, is built in.

    A mobile phone, as oldfart points out, is not and will never be an all-purpose computing device, Robert. There is no market for such a thing. There never will be.

    Think yourself lucky. Because, if there was such a market, then Microsoft phones would have a far larger share of the mobile market than they do.

    Because people like to run Windows applications on desktop computers. and would therefore have a strong compulsion to buy Windows mobile phones.

    Now you might (it is unlikely, but you might) be able to persuade this theoretical market to move to Gnu/Linux, but for a goodly number of the first few years of the market, a very much larger number of “sheeple” would be using Microsoft software on Microsoft hardware.

    I imagine this is not a future that would appeal to you.

  208. oldfart says:

    “As soon as most figure out that a large screen and a keyboard work with the smartphone, there will be a much bigger dent in M$’s “attach” rate. ”

    Wishful thinking. Most people will not bother because the manufacturers will not push the function. Smartphones are for most people phones with content consumption capabilities.

  209. oldfart says:

    “Well, as I have stated previously, 80% of the noted 20% that currently use M$ products, could get by with using 0%”

    Thats very nicr of you to say that. Unfortunately while you are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to make decisions for anyone else but you.

  210. oldfart says:

    “Oldman, so important creating faux symphonies and running a make believe IT team, sure has plenty time to respond and spew bullshit.”

    As do you, and come to think of it you are probably better at spewing bullshit than I am.

  211. dougman says:

    Well, as I have stated previously, 80% of the noted 20% that currently use M$ products, could get by with using 0%.

    So thus, (80/20)/80 gives you something like 5% which is a realistic number.

  212. dougman wrote, “People nowadays do not have phones in their houses, nor do they have a “computer” in the traditional sense, most people get my with tablets and smartphones these days.”

    I feel so old-fashioned; we have multiples of each kind. I think they all have uses but obviously ~a billion or so are fine with smartphones. As soon as most figure out that a large screen and a keyboard work with the smartphone, there will be a much bigger dent in M$’s “attach” rate. As a teacher I can state that many adults are semi-illiterate/enumerate and will not likely ever have a use for an office suite locally or in the cloud. web-based e-mail/social networks have them covered. It’s probably like the 80/20 rule being 80% consumers and 20% producers. M$ may still have a market but it will shrink for the client OS.

  213. dougman says:

    Oldman, so important creating faux symphonies and running a make believe IT team, sure has plenty time to respond and spew bullshit.

    http://www.techworm.net/2015/04/though-microsoft-ended-its-support-a-year-ago-windows-xp-is-still-in-demand-as-compared-to-windows-8.html

    http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

    See, WinXP and 7 control 75% of M$ marketshare.

    A phone does not have the Apps….please.

    A phone is a phone and a computer is a computer…you surely are old.

    People nowadays do not have phones in their houses, nor do they have a “computer” in the traditional sense, most people get my with tablets and smartphones these days.

  214. oldfart says:

    “Further, I haven’t seen any cost of supporting smartphones on my LAN and dozens have been on-line here.”

    So what, your little hacked together home network is not the world.

  215. oldfart says:

    “A modern smartphone blows away a desktop PC of just a few years ago. ” So what. A smart phone does not have the software of a desktop PC available, and probably never will, because of product differentiation. A phone is a phone and a computer is a computer. Each has a primary function and a market for that function. The fact that you can root a smart phone and add a desktop OS to it is ultimately irrelevant. The mythical average customer is not going to play computer geek. And I can see no vendor will sell let alone support that use case.

  216. oldfart wrote, “if the potential market for extending a smart phones functionality to be a partial desktop computer replacement is deemed to be greater than the cost to support the expanded function.”

    Moore’s Law makes it a certainty, not a distant dream, that smartphones will have all the capabilities of a desktop PC sooner or later. As far as I can tell they only lack RAM, 1-2gB v 4gb+, and storage, few gB v few TB. RAM will come soon because they have plenty of cores in the CPU now at a couple of gHz, and networked storage is rather common these days. I think this year or next no one but oldfart and buddies will repeat this nonsense. A modern smartphone blows away a desktop PC of just a few years ago. Smartphones are catching up really quickly.

    Further, I haven’t seen any cost of supporting smartphones on my LAN and dozens have been on-line here. The password was a hot property just a couple of weeks ago when the house was overflowing with people. People would like charging stations everywhere and the password but that’s about it for support. Legacy PCs cost much more to support, like multiple connections to the mains, gazillions of cables, space, … all of which cost time/money, stuff that matters.

  217. dougman wrote, “NO ONE uses BING”.

    That’s probably sarcasm but it’s close to being true…

    Recently, in USA, M$’s Bing got ~20% and Google 65%.

    Globally, Google still has ~62% while Bing slips to 8%.

    Again, where there is proper competition, M$ has nowhere near monopoly. Even on client OS, M$ is sinking rather quickly. There are some holdouts clinging to the wreckage but they will sink or swim in the new environment sooner or later.

  218. oldfart says:

    “NO ONE..and to top it off…NO ONE uses BING.

    Says no one in particular.

  219. oldfart says:

    “So yes a wireless docking smart phone is a question of when not if.”

    Maybe. But only if the potential market for extending a smart phones functionality to be a partial desktop computer replacement is deemed to be greater than the cost to support the expanded function. So far geeks want this kind of function in a phone.

  220. dougman says:

    Geee, I wonder…

    Who actually wants Windows 8?

    NO ONE..and to top it off…NO ONE uses BING.

  221. Deaf Spy says:

    A docking smart phone instead PC in fact makes sense for people living in a shared environment.

    No, it doesn’t, for a very simple reason. Applications.

    Gee, I wonder for how long Robert and you will keep pretending that devices like this do not exist:
    http://www.banggood.com/Vensmile-W10-Quad-Core-2GB-RAM-32GB-ROM-Windows-8_1-Smart-TV-Box-PC-p-970662.html

    That’s cheaper than a smartphone, and way more powerful functionally-wise. It can run AutoCAD. It can run Photoshop. It can run Finale. The best smartphone? Not quite so.

  222. oiaohm says:

    oldfart ” Product Differentiation” is something that smartphones that this is different. Think about it a Smartphone is a FM radio, GPS, Camera…. with a phone tacked on. So part of a smart-phones form of Product Differentiation is the means to absorb as many features as possible. So this nature of smart phones a wireless docking smart phone to provide the same interface as a PC is kinda to be expected. So yes a wireless docking smart phone is a question of when not if.

    A docking smart phone instead PC in fact makes sense for people living in a shared environment.

    Oldfart get the problem yet. 50 percent don’t need higher advanced PCs. That 50 percent will also have phones. If we get to the point that the phone wireless dock is also its charging station also the screen is the TV.

    Oldfart everything goes in circles. Remember old C64 they did not come with a screen they used your normal TV. We have not had PC class machines for a while that are TV based.

    And if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. Can means can not will sir.
    Oldfart no need to be smart on this. I understand exactly this. That can does not mean will. But the high can factor means the vendor lock-in is getting quite weak.

    And all those long standing widely published exploits for linux were a figment of everyone’s imagination, eh? Bugs exist. Hey get patched or mitigated, and we move on.
    Oldfart this is kinda you imagination gone wild with miss understanding.

    Yes long standing exploits for Linux don’t exactly exist. Linux bugs developer trace back to when the coding flaw was added. So you hear reports bug has been in Linux for 10 years+… The reality here is yes the code fault has been then for 10 years but the first detection is like 6 months ago. The fault gets added to the test suite then after updating we never see it again.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/smb-security-flaw-affects-every-version-of-windows/
    This recent one of Microsoft that happen a quite a bit and the problem is very different. The fault was in fact reported 1997 by all things the samba project. Get more interesting Windows 98 and Windows Me are patched for it. Every thing in the NT line was never patched for it because the bug was submitted against Windows 95 not NT at the time the coding teams of both OS’s inside Microsoft were independent. We know at least until 2004 Microsoft was not taking security serous-ally even public-ally said so. Result is most fault prior to 2004 Microsoft does not have a test suite to make sure those security fixes are not removed. So this is just as stack of known faults that keep on being unfixed because Microsoft Developers lack the required set-up to detect they have by mistake unfixed them. So Microsoft has some serous problems yet every time someone points out the serous problem the arguement hey Linux or OS X has equally old faults happen. The problem here the Linux or OS X faults age is also to first introduction not the result of opps it was patched and we unpatched or opps we forgot to patch it in the first place even that it had been reported.

  223. oldfart says:

    “So a phone might not be able to replace your usage of PC Oldfart. But the important fact you miss is it does replace a percentage of users need for a PC. As means to provide keyboard and mouse the PC usage requirement will drop again.”

    to this nonsense I reply with the following words: Product Differentiation.

  224. oldfart says:

    “We know from stats at least 50 percent can go.”

    And if my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. Can means can not will sir.

  225. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart things are not consistent globally.”

    And…?

  226. oldfart says:

    “Yep. M$ keeps copying bugs from the last century.”

    And all those long standing widely published exploits for linux were a figment of everyone’s imagination, eh? Bugs exist. Hey get patched or mitigated, and we move on.

  227. Chuckle… oldfart wrote, “Your experience with windows is obsolete.”

    Some things never change…
    “The new vulnerability, discovered by security firm Cylance, affects every version of Windows, including the latest Windows 10 preview, which has yet to be formally released.
    The “Redirect to SMB” vulnerability builds on a flaw first discovered in 1997 by exploiting the Windows Server Message Block (SMB). Researchers say a user can be tricked into clicking a specially crafted link, which can attempt to authenticate with a malicious server. The encrypted username and password combinations used to access the server could be logged, and later cracked by a brute-force attack.”

    Yep. M$ keeps copying bugs from the last century.

  228. oiaohm says:

    oldfart the cheapest smart phone from china is the same price as the cheapest feature phone from china this is 25 USD a unit. Only thing cheaper in phones is a pure dumb phone with absolutely no features that is 20 USD a unit. Note these include free shipping anywhere on earth but min order is 1000.

    Of course don’t expect blasing performance out of any of these.

    The phone plan in any country to use those phones is going to cost you more than the phone in 6 months. So carriers in all countries do order these phones. Yes some countries carry smart phones 1 as a status simple second to act as equal to a credit card yet never used as a phone as they don’t have a plan to call anyone. Yes SMS messages for bank transfers in those countries is free as it cheaper to give everyone phones then setup ATMs and card system.

    Oldfart things are not consistent globally.

  229. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you have a rose coloured glasses problem.

    In stead, thank God, we CAN simply make our choices in hardware and software plunking down our cash for hardware and software, loading up if we wish on the Windows based freeware that exists, and getting on with actually using our computers to do stuff.

    http://www.howtogeek.com/198622/heres-what-happens-when-you-install-the-top-10-download.com-apps/
    I know this is a very rough example. This is why the idea that freeware can fill in Windows flaws is not a workable idea for many users. People either hear horror stories or suffer horrors stories from installing third party applications under Windows. Oldfart this is a big reason why about 50 percent of the market is browser dominated instead of Application dominated. In fact its part of why Internet explorers numbers are so high as well.

    Linux Distribution system is not perfect but the reality is Ubuntu users in fact install more applications. This also applies to Android users using Google play. The reality is on average Ubuntu and Android users in fact get more out their hardware because they are willing to install the software to use the hardware.

    Oldfart remember I have Linux only closed source. If I move to Windows or OS X I will lose those 6 applications. I understand they are Pro-Consumer class applications. Oldfart you have been highly anti to anyone who is using Linux as well.

    I have had some experience with cheap crappy smartphones. They will never be a usable as desktops no matter what you may believe.
    Oldfart you need to drop the never from here or add the word current.

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2473515,00.asp

    Remember what is a cheap crappy smart phone today was an expensive smart phone 10 years ago.

    The other thing to remember Oldfart is Japan and the flip feature phone. Yes for a lot of thing we would use a desktop for they use a phone worse a feature phone. Why would they. It turns out it simpler to type Japanese on a feature phone keypad than what it is on a PC keyboard. So yes there are full published Novels and screen plays in japan that were written on feature phones. Of course you are not going to find this in any English country where it simpler to type on the PC keyboard than using a phone keyboard.

    So a phone might not be able to replace your usage of PC Oldfart. But the important fact you miss is it does replace a percentage of users need for a PC. As means to provide keyboard and mouse the PC usage requirement will drop again.

    Something else to remember up until now chomebooks could not connect to Android phones to transfer files either. Developer image for chromebooks has just got this feature. So for an news reporter for example combination of chromebook + android phone + sat link device would be an operational combination in 12 months time but 12 months ago it would not have been. So things are changing.

    So the question is how big of percentage will a docking smart phone remove from the PC market and how big of a percentage will chromebooks end up removing from the PC market.

    We know from stats at least 50 percent can go. If a large number of current Linux users turn out to be Pro-consumers this would effectively double the current Linux market share percentage.

    dougman here
    Win-Doh’s is used by idiots, those that are too stupid to learn how to use Linux.
    Its right and wrong. Over 70 of users don’t want to learn how to use a computer at all let alone if it runs OS X, Windows or Linux. Its not that they are stupid they are simply not interested. They want to buy a phone/computer like calculator and use it when they want to and don’t worry about it at all. Yes chromebooks and android do carter to this market.

    Of course some of this 70 percent are jumping ship to OS X and some is jumping ship to chromebooks.

    Bill Gates pushed for software patents because the idea is this would restrict open source. What we have seen happen is new items not be rolled out until patents are free. We are now also since in cases like AVB were some new feature is developed in the FOSS world and IBM or Intel patents then this is using to destroy closed source environments vendor lock-in. Yes patents are a double sided sword. There is not a unlimited number of cases to deal with in the pro-conusmer market.

  230. DrLoser says:

    As are modern windows desktops. Your experience with windows is obsolete.

    Not absolutely correct, oldfart.

    Robert’s baffled experience with windows was never really l33t in the first place.

  231. DrLoser says:

    If web-browsing is what people need doing, many have gone to MacOS,

    I’ll have some of what you’re smoking, Robert.

  232. DrLoser says:

    I have yet to have a patch I need to back Off – Of course I could be lucky, but I’m not being disingenuous.

    Well, now.

    Since I’ve been using Windows 7 on my tatty bottom-of-the-range HP Intel desktop, I believe I’ve backed off an update to a restore point precisely once.

    I say that, because I have used the ability to back off to a restore point once. I actually forget why. It might have been a completely different issue.

    And, this will delight everybody here, today I advised my work colleague to back off to the latest restore point on his £2,000 Dell laptop, because the networking stack was evidently trashed. No Wi-Fi. No 100GB. Nothing. Not even ping seemed to be working!.

    This is a job for Robert Pogson! Robert can Leap Small Network Stacks in a Single Bound! Robert is a Sage of the Ancients! Robert Knows How To Fix Network Problems!

    Sadly, lacking a Pogson, we had to resort to the man with a mug of tea who occasionally gets a call-out on hardware issue.

    “Your DHCP credentials are fucked, mate.”

    And there, but for the grace of a half-educated monkey with a spanner, went the chance of experiencing the Full Glory of being Paved Over with Debian Jessie (note, note Wheezy, it’s still contaminated with systemd).

    What a shame. Dudley could have become the next Northern Manitoba.

    BTW, Robert, how’s the page views going in Northern Manitoba? Up to 5% yet?

  233. oldfart wrote, ” Existing users of windows have stayed on windows 7. That is easy to do because it really did what was needed”

    I’m sure there are many, however a lot of young/new users of IT have made better choices. M$’s share of IT is plunging for clients. Cloud is growing for them but not a monopoly for sure.

    If web-browsing is what people need doing, many have gone to MacOS, GNU/Linux and Android/Linux, judging by the stats. “7” has dropped 1.2% since January and GNU/Linux has risen 0.5% global desktop. Even with “8.1” on retail shelves, M$’s total share keeps declining.

  234. dougman says:

    Re: We have better things to do with our time Dougie.

    Oh yes, dealing with M$ bullshit is always the better hand, eh?

    LOL…..

  235. oldfart says:

    correction:

    In stead, thank God, we CAN simply make our choices in hardware and software plunking down our cash for hardware and software, loading up if we wish on the Windows based freeware that exists, and getting on with actually using our computers to do stuff.

    (damn non fixable posts!)

  236. oldfart says:

    “Win-Doh’s is used by idiots, those that are too stupid to learn how to use Linux.”

    We have better things to do with our time Dougie.

  237. oldfart says:

    “I guess that’s why consumers hate 8.* and malware still exists and re-re-reboots still exist… Your patter of TOOS is disingenuous.”

    Nope. Your patter of hate is obsolete, Robert Pogson. Here is an update for you.

    1) The version of windows shipping is now 8.1 For most consumers buying new machines had enough reverted to windows 7 as to be a non issue.
    2) Existing users of windows have stayed on windows 7. That is easy to do because it really did what was needed, except of course for people like your self who are inured to cheap ancient white box junk. since most of those people are still within the useable life of their desktops. and we all have until 2020 before 7 goes end of life. Of course windows 10 will be with us in a matter of a few months and from what I can see of my applications running on it in a VM, its looking good.
    3) Malware is a non issue for most of us. We can use either windows defender or we can use our favorite antivirus. There is no reason to move to a semi junk desktop OS with ersatz software.
    4) Your re re reboot mantra is getting a little bit old. updates take place automatically in the wee hours for those (like Mr. K. )who do not monkey with the process. I have yet to have a patch I need to back Off – Of course I could be lucky, but I’m not being disingenuous.

    The real problem that you have with Microsoft is that you have laid at their doorstep the commercialization of desktop computing. Were it up to you we would all still be making our own software and hacking our systems together out of parts, as I did untill the mid 90’s. In stead, thank God, we can not simply make our choices in hardware and software plunking down our cash for hardware and software, loading up if we wish on the Windows based freeware that exists, and getting on with actually using our computers to do stuff.

    As opposed to running a canned compile and then checking out the the latest Linux kernel.

  238. oldfart wrote of TOOS, “As are modern windows desktops.”

    I guess that’s why consumers hate 8.* and malware still exists and re-re-reboots still exist… Your patter of TOOS is disingenuous.

  239. dougman says:

    Win-Doh’s is used by idiots, those that are too stupid to learn how to use Linux.

  240. oldfart says:

    “Probably food/shelter/clothing would have higher priorities especially if there were no merchants selling PCs at all.”

    Which is why as far as I know, most of the world at this level has to make due with non-smart feature phones, because I suspect that even a cheap smartphone is out of reach.

  241. oldfart says:

    “If you were going to walk into town to buy a computer 10 miles or more, it would more likely be a smartphone.”

    Unfortunately for your theory the kind of smartphone that your third workd can afford is going to be slow and limited. I have had some experience with cheap crappy smartphones. They will never be a usable as desktops no matter what you may believe.

  242. oldfart says:

    “In the North we usually did have have at least one or two machines for students in each classroom. We could do that because we used GNU/Linux and it was so easy to manage.”

    As are modern windows desktops. Your experience with windows is obsolete.

  243. oldfart wrote, “Large portions of it do have enough money to afford some desktop provisioned with the commercial OS that you hate.”

    Depending on whom you ask, about half the world lives on less than $7K per capita. There is even a bunch less than $2K. Would you invest $hundreds on a PC if you lived there? Probably food/shelter/clothing would have higher priorities especially if there were no merchants selling PCs at all. At the low end GNU/Linux does reduce the cost of IT significantly. If you were going to walk into town to buy a computer 10 miles or more, it would more likely be a smartphone. Where I worked, we had more PCs per student than most schools using that other OS in the North or the South. I did apply for some positions where there were no computers in classrooms at all in the South. In the North we usually did have have at least one or two machines for students in each classroom. We could do that because we used GNU/Linux and it was so easy to manage.

  244. oldfart says:

    “Only if money is no object. For most of the world it’s a very large object. ”
    The world is not necessarily what you encountered in the far north. Large portions of it do have enough money to afford some desktop provisioned with the commercial OS that you hate. From there they can simply fill it with the same FOSS that you love.

    The world is not entirely made up of beggars who can’t be choosers, and there are plenty of lower cost commercial software solutions that people can buy without having to figure out which semi broken freebie they are going to wrestle with.

    “It’s just silly to assume a single product from a single manufacturer is the one true OS for the world. Nothing else in the world’s economy works that way. ”

    And its even sillier to think that the majority of IT using people are going to ignore working solutions and re-invent the wheel, or even put up with some home brew knockoff of commercial software.

    The world does not share your cheapness driven hatreds, Robert Pogson.

    “Classrooms, teachers, PCs… have to exist before you can get the benefit of them.”
    As does all of the infrastructure for supporting computer tech of any complexity.

  245. oldfart wrote, “The world uses whatever software that it can afford that is fit for the job.”

    Only if money is no object. For most of the world it’s a very large object. In schools where I worked we could afford 2-3 times as many PCs thanks to GNU/Linux. Classrooms, teachers, PCs… have to exist before you can get the benefit of them. If one has to pay for permission to use hardware you own there’s just less money for more hardware. This is definitely an issue for schools whose product is educated students rather than SKUs. It’s also true for most of the developing world. USA, France, Spain and Germany etc. are adopting GNU/Linux because it’s also easier to use, maintain and it works well. It’s just silly to assume a single product from a single manufacturer is the one true OS for the world. Nothing else in the world’s economy works that way. GNU/Linux is finally reaching consumers and businesses widely and M$’s share is shrinking.

  246. oldfart says:

    ” The world can and does make its own software that works for the vast majority of people.”

    Nope. The world uses whatever software that it can afford that is fit for the job. If using that software comes at the price of a license, then as long as the terms of the license are acceptable and affordable to the user of the software, then the world will buy what it needs and can afford.

    The world is not slaves to money the way Robert Pogson cheapskate is!

  247. oiaohm wrote a list of “problems” of GNU/Linux keeping people from using GNU/Linux, “The biggest hindrances to Linux take up is not in fact the applications that much…”

    Take-up is a product of factors. The technical issues listed are almost irrelevant to the issue of not being allowed on retail shelves for decades. People have to actually use GNU/Linux to have any possibility of encountering any of these. The fact that the world has produced hundreds of distros to do many of the things people do with PCs and servers is proof that the issues oiaohm lists are tangential at most. e.g. I was many times in schools where people had not even heard of GNU/Linux except possibly on the network news. After experiencing the price/performance of GNU/Linux it was heartily endorsed by users in the real world who had increased access to IT for the lowest possible cost. These factors overpower those of oiaohm for many millions of real people. It’s only computer-geeks and possibly ISVs who would even notice them. The world can and does make its own software that works for the vast majority of people.

    USA, the country that produced M$ is rapidly adopting GNU/Linux, on the desktop. That would not be true if oiaohm’s list mattered. On Saturday, GNU/Linux had 3.51% of the desktop in USA. A year earlier, on the second Saturday in April that share was 1.71%, so share has doubled in one year, not too shabby for a “defective”/”problem-ridden” OS. At the same time another UNIX-based OS has taken huge share from M$, MacOS. It’s up to 20% in USA. Figure out how That Other OS, supposedly so perfect, is losing in the market against “inferior” competition. The answer is that the market for new PCs or refurbished PCs wants anything but that other OS. The world has seen Android/Linux thrive and knows that the old myths are false. GNU/Linux is not just for geeks and fools. In India, GNU/Linux is much higher in usage on weekdays (2%) than weekends (1.5%) because people who know they have a choice are choosing GNU/Linux and business and government are slurping it up. Problems? No, GNU/Linux has opportunities.

  248. oiaohm says:

    I do have a minor correction games section is not pro consumer. But games + pro consumer only get to you 1/4 at best. Of course you have to subtract those who only have steam games that are already ported and those using solution that it does not mater from the list of must .

    The biggest hindrances to Linux take up is not in fact the applications that much.
    1) the 10-25 percent that are loud and get the other rest to follow them on the extreme outside chance they might need some feature the 10-25 use. Reality they will never use a application of the 10-25 percent so why are they selecting OS based on this. In fact most cases there computer hardware is unable to run the software of the 10-25 percent because that software demands either high GPU or CPU that cheep machines don’t have. Yes insane for the 75-90 to use the software the 10-25 use it is buy a new computer anyhow.
    2) Linux GUI design and management issues.
    Items under this
    a) X11 design not allowing screen locking.
    b) Lack of ability to update firmware
    https://github.com/hughsie/fwupd
    Being dealt with.
    https://github.com/hughsie/fwupd
    3) Incorrect information.
    http://bitwagon.com/rtldi/rtldi.html
    Like this is 2004 how to package up an application with its own instance of glibc.
    Wayland will allow applications to be packages up with own supports opengl libraries as long as you are able to operate with open source intel and mesa and AMD after they do their combined closed source/open source driver. Of course Nvidia is still a problem child.

    Library issue on Linux have mostly be incorrect packaging and opengl.

    4) Lack of Restore points. Windows in fact will auto roll back to a restore point if straight after a upgrade system fails to boot.
    https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SystemRollbackWithBtrfs
    Yes this is another work in progress.

    Anyone watching sees this list getting shorter and shorter.

  249. kurkosdr wrote, “In order for your OS to matter, at least one of the following needs to support it”.

    In some alternate universe. The monopoly is over in this one.

  250. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr you can fairly drop AutoDesk. Bricscad is the all rounder under Linux.

    Something here AutoCad to Soildworks you can end up pulling you hair out as the file completely fails.
    http://www.opendesign.com/
    The issue is this. All members of the Open Design Alliance are compatible with each other tested by compatibility testing they all take part in. This does not include AutoDesk or any any of their products(ie Autocad). Anything that is Open Design Alliance compatible will open perfectly in Autocad. Just the reverse direction is not true.

    Bricscad is part of opendesign so using it you are 100 percent compatible with everything you send out to. Yes and from Bricscad you can go to Siemens NX that is expensive and makes autocad look like a toy. Cads open source on Linux a problem. Cads closed source on Linux are more than powerful enough. If autocad is stopping you moving you really do have to look at your workflow.

    Cakewalk is also becoming questionable. Particularly when you put it head to head with LMMS with someone who knows how to use Jackaudio. That combination has all features of Cakewalk bar 1(yes the bar 1 the Cakewalk fileformat) and a whole ton of extras. Finale is harder to replace. Cakewalk is exactly that to replace.

    Sony Vegas (or Pinnacle Studio) that is Lightworks and a few open source alterantives. Mind you with AVB protocol to control studio devices Lightworks comes into its own because its on Linux and has proper AVB drivers that work with everything because it is on Linux. More complex setups you will be Lightworks due to Sony Vegas and Pinnacle Studio lack of Linux support and crappy drivers on OS X and Windows.

    Gaming industry that is fairly much being done by Valve.
    http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/dri-devel/2015-April/081045.html
    Yes first they release games to Debian developers now the give access to Mesa developers. Yes this allows a lot bigger test suites.

    kurkosdr And keep dreaming of “average users” who only need Internet access.
    This is not exactly dreaming studies put this at about 50 percent of the market. So yes the average only needs the Internet. Pro-consumers are about 10 to 15 percent. kurkosdr everything you listed is Pro-consumer so only found on 10-15 percent of all computers on there. Of course there are Pro-consumers operating items like Lightworks and Cads on Linux only systems.

    Adobe is about the only problem child that does not have a replacement of some form for everything they make.

  251. kurkosdr says:

    Who the fuch cares? In order for your OS to matter, at least one of the following needs to support it:

    -Gaming industry
    -Adobe
    -Sony Vegas (or Pinnacle Studio)
    -AutoDesk
    -Cakewalk

    Desktop Linux doesn’t matter. Keep squinting at graphs.

    And keep dreaming of “average users” who only need internet access.

  252. DrLoser says:

    So, in other words, and without India’s fairly pathetic 1.94%, it’s basically far below the average for Linux world-wide?
    Insofar as you can be far below something that is marginal at best.
    Good work there, Robert. Rah rah!

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