8 Weeks In France – GNU/Linux Triumphs On The Desktop

I’ve only been in France for a few hours on one day when I took a tour of CERN. I went on a “French” day, hoping I could hack it. I couldn’t. My French was too slow. Fortunately the tour-group was tiny and the guide recognized my confusion…

Anyway, StatCounter has toured France by web-stat and according to them, GNU/Linux on the desktop has set a new high 6 of the last 8 weeks. It’s quite a trend. I hope it continues. At this rate a year from now the share of GNU/Linux desktop page-views will be over 9%. See why I declared this The Year of the GNU/Linux Desktop? It’s happening.

France has been a hotbed of GNU/Linux adoption for years and the effort is bearing fruit. Schools, governments and business are all playing a part.

In nearby Spain, the action is a little different but there’s plenty of action.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

382 Responses to 8 Weeks In France – GNU/Linux Triumphs On The Desktop

  1. oiaohm says:

    That is correct, it is something that you learn by working with real instruments and instrumentalists, which I did in an earlier life, as opposed to being a bystander while moving equipment on a stage.
    oldfart this is because you have not done the stage hand role. As a stage hand you are in fact told quite a lot about placement and interactions. It is quite acceptable for stage hand to ask if something seams odd if their is a particular reason for X placement on the stage. It is important things don’t always go right like cable fail in a performance a stage hand may need to make call and alter the placement of something.

    Yes the fact that if things go wrong in the last 30 seconds before a performance a stage hand is require to make judgement calls and do alterations in ways not cause major Acoustic resonance problems means you do in fact have to understand it of course everything is done to avoid that event.

    Oldfart a stage hand role is not just a bystander. To those performing on stage it can seam that way because as a stage hand we place stuff on stage then get to stop and monitor what has been set up. Part of a stage hands job it taking notes if what we put on stage does not work out right or might not seam to be right. Then the stage hand reports go back to the director/producer.

    Unlike using real instruments and being around instrumentalists the stage hand gets to focus on exactly what is happening. So the stage hand experience is very different to the instrumentalist closer to that of the audience. For a composer its a really good experience.

    The reality Oldfart is the stage hand job at time is in fact harder to get right than being up there and playing the instruments.

    Yes the worst part about being a stage hand is knowing that you are going to be treated poorly in most cases by everyone bar the director/producer because they will think that stage hands are lazy because you get to stand around just looking at stuff. Yes the stage hand looking at stuff talent fail to see the importance for their own safety and performance quality reasons.

  2. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart also do me a favour give up the idea that people have to produce audio and scores using the tools you do.”

    Nobody “Has” to do anything sir. You can continue to use what works for you, and I will continue to use what works for me.

    “Acoustic resonance between instruments is not something you google for. ”

    That is correct, it is something that you learn by working with real instruments and instrumentalists, which I did in an earlier life, as opposed to being a bystander while moving equipment on a stage.

  3. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    I’ll tell you what Fifi, you continue making music your way, and i will continue making music my way. And I will continue to use the digital composing workstation that I have put together from commercial software to make music.

    Oldfart also do me a favour give up the idea that people have to produce audio and scores using the tools you do. Attend a Linux Audio conference and you will meet people doing every you are doing with different tools on Linux and more.

    Audio was an area where you had advantages being on Windows and OS X this was while Dante and other protocols like it were closed standards. Result was no drivers on Linux. This puts some of the Linux programs 10 to 15 years behind in places. The problem is this has now reversed for connecting to hardware. AVB is Linux dominate. AES67 is open standard so support on Linux will most like come.

    Something to remember Oldfart what is a de-facto standard today will at some point in the future be non existent as it replaced by a real standard this is what is happening to audio/video network transporting.

    While you, who have no provable credentials and no credibility, will continue to babble on instead of doing.
    Who says I am not doing. Just because I am not will to prove my credentials to you does not mean I am not doing. How did I know about AVB and all the mess. This is not something simple googling will assemble simply.

    Also Acoustic resonance between instruments is not something you google for. Oldfart this is a case of being in a field where I really do have experience. I am telling you now with the way things are going don’t be surprised if finale end up on Linux one day. The question is by the time Finale gets to Linux is it going to be another Nero. Remember Nero released their burning software on Linux and it basically did not sell because K3b and others was more feature complete.

  4. oldfart says:

    “The problem here I sucker punched you. ”

    Whatever…

    And that is why I find myself paying less and less attention to what you are saying. I’ll tell you what Fifi, you continue making music your way, and i will continue making music my way. And I will continue to use the digital composing workstation that I have put together from commercial software to make music. While you, who have no provable credentials and no credibility, will continue to babble on instead of doing.

  5. oiaohm says:

    oldfart SMPTE timecode last update was 2008. Issue is it not design to cope with 60 frames per second as what is required to master blueray discs. Also if you looked it up its designed to work with a real clock metrics. “hour:minute:second:frame” Notice the first 3 parts of what is sends. Yes what AES67 is using is based on SMPTE timecode when something has a clock running fast or slow heaven help you..

    MIDI Sync you would be referring to MIDI beat clock that thing drifts like hell because there is no way to create a proper global time alignment how long a beat is without extending. MIDI beat clock without extentions suffers from clock issues just as much as SMPTE. Jack Audio uses MIDI beat clock with extensions that address the clocking issue. So Jack Audio is fixed MIDI beat clock.

    As you can see by patent AVB is doing something different again. Also AVB is you second protocol problem for remaining on Windows and OS X. Jack Audio is problem 1. AVB is problem 2. and a larger problem.

    Open-AVB is the reference implementation all AVB devices have to test against. Gets worse the exact item to test against is Open-AVB running on Linux. Certification does not have to be done against Open-AVB running on Windows or OS X. The only platform will fully tested driver to all AVB devices is Linux.

    AES67 does not have a reference implementation so you are dependant on all vendors implementing it the same way. Want to lay bets on this happening.

    Then again, our self appointed expert has probably never done anything larger than a garage band – maybe. Nor did he note that I can use the built in mixer to place individual tracks across a stereo field. IN fact more often than not all I do is place the different “choirs” of instruments accordingly (Violins left, Cellos right, basses right rear, etc.) similar to what was done in the studio symphony orchestra recordings that I attended.

    Oldfart the key word is similar. Get you hands on some Andre Rieu videos watch them closely. Depending on what songs are going to be performs the layout of the orchestra different. Can seam minor these differences is why left and right is not enough.

    Oldfart why is the layout different its call Acoustic resonance between instruments. Cellos near the basses can pick up the base vibration and enhance/extend duration. Yes moving the Cello seats by 1 foot can change the complete tone of the base. The Acoustic resonance between instruments is why a real orchestra in most cases sounds different to a general synth solution you are using. This is why its not easy to lay out your seats in a emulation for it. Yes each seat in the simulation as a mic and a generator. The filter on the software mic has a filter to replicate an approx of what the instrument is going todo to sound it receives.

    Oldfart you are a normal non pro who cannot see the finer point of Acoustic resonance. Pro over time learn that orchestra layout is critical and the differences look minor. Yes the reason why all orchestras don’t have fixed seats is you need to be able to move the human player position to alter tone of the performance. The reality is the instruments are just as critical to the performance as the players because different instruments in fact react slightly differently. This is why the composer can only give the conductor a guide because conductor might need to change the order of seat of the chelos/violins… to get the right tone out because the different physical instruments are reacting.

    By the way if Acoustic resonance was not a factor in orchestra recording you would be just able to record each instrument individually and splice them. If you are writing music for rock bands with all electric instruments you don’t have to worry about this. But someone decides to take an acoustic guitar or equal on stage worry.

    The fun of having a part time job as a stage hand for while working with an orchestra with the conductor and composer. Oldfart I highly recommend this to composers before they really start composing is do some stage hand work in the field of music they wish to produce for. Stage hands are back ground people who get to see the finer details.

    Nor did he note that I can use the built in mixer to place individual tracks across a stereo field.
    Oldfart do you get it yet doing this does not emulate a real physical orchestra.

    Emulating a real physical orchestra in software is true cpu/gpu pain.

    Oldfart going forwards with AVB you are in check to take a chess term. Because if you want to have perfect AVB support you need all your software on Linux. So when is finale going to release a Linux version is a question you have to be asking. The idea you will just migrate between OS X and Windows with what is happening is valid option.

  6. dougman says:

    Seriously?

    How about you come to America and help me level and grade my building dude. I start work at 6am and end at 6pm; I have some footers that need to be hand dug and you’re the perfect person for the job.

    Grab a shovel, or perhaps your sissy hands not calloused enough?

    Eh.

  7. DrLoser says:

    Trained Professional BULLSHITTER

    Afraid I’ll take your job, Doug-nut?

    Frankly I could probably do that without either the training (which you lack) or indeed the professional qualifications (which you will never acquire).

  8. dougman says:

    Trained Professional BULLSHITTER

  9. DrLoser says:

    I went on a “French” day, hoping I could hack it. I couldn’t. My French was too slow.

    Did you try FLOSS French,, Robert?

    FLOSS French! It’s all the rage. No experience needed! Just jump in and Contribute!

    FLOSS French is a Community Project. Training people to actually speak and comprehend “legacy French” is an unnecessary imposition on GDP. It wastes tax money, wastes time, it isn’t cheap, and what’s even worse is that you just sound like an incompetent fool when you try to sound important in “legacy French!”

    The great thing about FLOSS French is that you don’t need to be up-to-date in the language, in any way! All that stuff you parroted back in the 1960s? Not only has FLOSS French faithfully ripped off 1960s French (with a few unavoidable copypasta errors). It’s new! It’s improved! It is not “legacy French!”

    Don’t be fooled by people who claim that “legacy French” is necessary to business, Robert! It isn’t! FLOSS French is what businesses really need!

    The next time you see some berk in a beret with a stripey shirt and onions round his neck, Evangelise the heck out of him!

    “You no longer need to be a Slave to Legacy French, Mein Sewer! Here, have a dab of FLOSS French behind the ears!”

    I recommend you start this crusade forthwith, Robert. I can’t see how it could possibly fail.

    (But if it does, do what the rest of us do. Just shout very very loudly and hope you get away with it.)

  10. DrLoser says:

    Well in addition to what you said, I also have to extract the individual parts using Finale’s auto parts extractor feature.

    Goodness me, does Finale have a feature like that?

    I can hardly believe it, of a mature commercial product that has been used by professional musicians world-wide over ten to twenty years, of whom I know only about five and only two of those are actual family members!

    Must be some sort of fluke. Either that, or they just copied the superior FLOSS alternatives.

  11. DrLoser says:

    Libre at last! Libre at last!
    Thank God Almighty, I don’t have to pay for it any more!

  12. DrLoser says:

    Doctor, I am insulted at having my work compared to that of FOSS programmer.

    I don’t see why you should feel insulted, oldfart. In the good old days of FOSS programming, back in the 1980s, they actually managed to get software right.

    I was comparing your work (in excelsior) against FLOSS programming.

    It’s only when people like Robert started insisting on Cheapskate, whoops, “Libre” that things started to go rapidly downhill towards the sort of sub-amateur muck that delights oiaohm so much.

  13. oldfart says:

    “(Any more than FLOSS programmers aim at writing a decent bit of software that doesn’t break all over the place.)”

    Doctor, I am insulted at having my work compared to that of FOSS programmer. I may be an amateur now, but I was a trained professional composer in a past life!

  14. oldfart says:

    “. Do you know what happens when you are tasked with having a live orchestra, all seated in the right place, play your score?”

    Well in addition to what you said, I also have to extract the individual parts using Finale’s auto parts extractor feature.

    Then again, our self appointed expert has probably never done anything larger than a garage band – maybe. Nor did he note that I can use the built in mixer to place individual tracks across a stereo field. IN fact more often than not all I do is place the different “choirs” of instruments accordingly (Violins left, Cellos right, basses right rear, etc.) similar to what was done in the studio symphony orchestra recordings that I attended.

    In fact all our self appointed expert has done is insist that jackaudio is going to be my only solution now and for the foreseeable future to a problem that I don’t have and do not forsee having for the same foreseeable future.

    And all of this mind you is so that he can then point me back to some piece of ersatz FOSS that he alleges will solve the “Problem” that he has posited. in yet another attempt to bully me into using that FOSS.

    Makes you wonder what happened to SMPTE sync and midi sync?

  15. DrLoser says:

    Why I choose to pick this particular rancid gem out of such a huge incontinent stream of the things, I’ll never know. Oh well:

    oldfart as I said if you do a great score. Something a movie or something with 3d sound wants to pick up you can find yourself over night kinda caught when they ask you to the score with a full live orchestra. Yes seating placement of orchestra can get very interesting in movie cases.

    1. oldfart doesn’t fantasise the way you do, oiaohm. I’m sure he’d be flattered if somebody picked up his score. But he’s not really aiming at that. (Any more than FLOSS programmers aim at writing a decent bit of software that doesn’t break all over the place.)
    2. Do you know what happens when you are tasked with having a live orchestra, all seated in the right place, play your score?

    You get a live orchestra, all seated in the right place, to play your score. Presumably with a professional conductor, although I’m sure the FLOSS “Conduct-U-Like” alternative featuring a stuttering Compiz hologram waving a broom and claiming that it’s a baton would do almost as well.

  16. oiaohm says:

    oldfart the current battle is AES67 vs AVB. Of course this is not going to end well.

    http://apps.linuxaudio.org/wiki/jack_latency_tests Jack audio works with end to end latency testing.

    Why do you need end to end testing you know that 20 meters of cable that 1 item has and the 5 meters the other has kinda can make a difference.

    The issue you need jackaudio for its is insane tolerance ability to latency. Even using AVB or AES67 transport protocols don’t solve the basic issue of how to dig yourself out of a case where you load is way too high and latency is happening due to processing. Jackaudio sync solution is different to both AVB and AES67 methods. Both AVB and AES67 are design all sources remaining timing synced. Jackaudio is designed to be able to deal with the evil case of sources slipping out of sync as well as being able to put in measured micro second delays and do a remeasure just by plug-in a bit of hardware in at the recording ends.

    Yes Jack audio can be used on top of AVB at this stage without problems.

    This is the issue oldfart there have been many options but very few include any method of measuring and correcting using measured latency.

    AVB and AES67 include latency correction for network transport.

    http://www.tvtechnology.com/audio/0098/for-aes-timing-is-everything/271322

    AES67 method gets insane where you have to attempt to have all devices clocks synced to put on correct time stamps. That is going to be a bitch right all it takes is one device with a broken clock to ruin your day. So why are they doing this so horible.

    http://www.google.com/patents/US20130138800
    Yep AVB group patented doing measured network latency correction. So AES67 is stuck to an older second rate method.

    AES67 vs AVB is like OOXML vs ODF. You can see what one is truly solid at core. Yes AVB is the one with the solid core design.

    See AES67 and AVB contain no latency corrections to using physical synthesis and physical devices or compute synth. Jack audio has few unique features here.

    Yes AVB and Jack audio are not dependant on computers/devices having synced clocks.

    Oldfart jackaudio makes configuration a 30 min job compared to many hours to days. Why days with something like AES67 and all the protocols its replacing if a device internal clock is broken you have to replace it and its screwed up time data can stuff many other things.

    Personally I wish device vendors had gone with AVB that is way more sane on syncing.

    oldfart as I said if you do a great score. Something a movie or something with 3d sound wants to pick up you can find yourself over night kinda caught when they ask you to the score with a full live orchestra. Yes seating placement of orchestra can get very interesting in movie cases.

    oldfart I did not google up AES67 at all. I listen about it at a Linux Audio conference. http://lac.linuxaudio.org/ Really attend one and hang out with a broader group of professionals Oldfart. But before you walk in the door remember to drop any ideas of saying commercial is best.

    The problem here I sucker punched you.

    Assuming the AES standard for audio over IP that you googled up catches on the way that you think. I suspect that by the time I am ready a few years down the road, there will be commercially supported solutions that I can trust available if I need them, as opposed to a FOSS kludge like jackaudio that I don’t, and that the solution
    AES67 due to design flaw in clock solution cannot ever replace jack audio.

    AVB standard is perfect for clock but AVB standard fault is that it contains no routing system. AVB plugs into jackaudio and jackaudio routing fills in its flaw. So there is no Jack Audio complete replacement Oldfart. So maybe in 3 to 5 years AVB might advance and add a routing standard with measured latency correction so removing jack audio. AVB might not since it already links into jack audio.

    Oldfart like it or not there is no way out of this. Yes it is absolutely insane that AES67 has as much following as it does.

    Oldfart did I say vendors going AES67 was sane. No I did not. I told you do your research on this before commenting. Why because there is a nasty huge fault in AES67 and the protocols it replaces.

  17. oldfart says:

    “Real human orchestra requires a seating guide as well as a score. ”

    Are you sure of that?

    “You current setup is not big enough or powerful enough to emulate put each instrument in a seat position or customising those seat positions to the recording area you use. Yes seat position testing requires 5.1 min 7.1 preferred.”

    Nonsense. I doubt that I will need to have that much in detailed placement for the forces of my ensembles. And since in the end I will be distributing (at most) 24/96 stereo recordings of what I create. A single workstation (such as the dell workstation that I cited) with possible outboard post processing capabilities should be more than enough for my purposes.

    “oldfart no matter how much you claim you will just use commercial the reality is there is no commercial replacement to Jack audio and there will not be any time soon.”

    Assuming the AES standard for audio over IP that you googled up catches on the way that you think. I suspect that by the time I am ready a few years down the road, there will be commercially supported solutions that I can trust available if I need them, as opposed to a FOSS kludge like jackaudio that I don’t, and that the solutions will be fully compatible with my current tools.

    Nice try Sir, but no cigar!

    At any rate none of what you have barraged me with changes the point that I made.

  18. oiaohm says:

    I also question whether you have any idea of the workflow of a composer who works on completely score format.
    Oldfart the problem is I don’t just have experience of the working with composer I have experience of the working with conductor as well.
    pseudo orchestral composition
    This is all you doing right. Problem is at this stage you are not doing what is required to take it to a real human orchestra. Real human orchestra requires a seating guide as well as a score. You current setup is not big enough or powerful enough to emulate put each instrument in a seat position or customising those seat positions to the recording area you use. Yes seat position testing requires 5.1 min 7.1 preferred.

    Oldfart if you do produce a really great score you will require the gear to take it to the next level. Using a real human orchestra has enough problems with human errors without seating of orchestra being wrong.

    Yes having 100 people + to record something is very expensive by the minute. You can afford to dump 100 000+ into simulation.

    The reality here oldfart as a pro you don’t have the tools/equipment you need yet. You only have the tools of fairly much as a person doing it for a hobby.

    So fairly much Oldfart you are only doing less than half the job. As they say the last 10 percent is the hardest and you are not anywhere close tot that. I also did not say that that I should have to get booked for real human orchestra at min in a lot of cases you have to produce 5.1/7.1 audio.

    oldfart no matter how much you claim you will just use commercial the reality is there is no commercial replacement to Jack audio and there will not be any time soon.

  19. dougman says:

    Both shills are a dying breed of old school thoughts, the outburst you see are the pangs of death.

  20. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Oh no, what will the world do with some oldfart Microsoft shill and another guy with an @outlook.com e-mail account refusing to use Linux.

  21. oldfart says:

    “Does this mean you are leaving us?”

    I will when you will… Nah you go first!

    And for the rest…

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…

  22. DrLoser says:

    At any rate, none of this has any real value to me at this time. If and when I do outgrow what will be my next machine.

    That $2000 worth of hardware is all very well and good, oldfart, but you are forgetting the exorbitant M$ Tax. Add another $50 forthwith!

    (What’s that you say? It comes included in the price? Oh, The Slavery!)

  23. dougman says:

    Re: At any rate, none of this has any real value to me at this time.

    Does this mean you are leaving us?

    The Dell machine you posted has an Ubuntu option, save yourself a $108.75!

    Look at costs for M$ Office, >$200 when Libreoffice does the very same for free!

  24. oldfart says:

    “Reality you do find you self needing a collection of tools at times.”

    Why is it so hard for you to accept the notion that I have all the tools that I need? could it be because instead of purchasing commercial tools you have had to hack together your solutions? I also question whether you have any idea of the workflow of a composer who works on completely score format.

    At any rate, none of this has any real value to me at this time. If and when I do outgrow what will be my next machine.

    http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-t7910-workstation/pd?~ck=anav

    Then I will look around and make my own assessment of what you are saying. ANd I will bet good money that when I do I wiill find a commercial solution to my needs, and not need to consider some half baked, half finished FOSS kludge.

  25. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart. the not you comment is wrong. I have done lot of different setups.”

    You have done nothing provable. So so spare me.

    “AVB protocol has just put too much pressure on the closed protocols to remain in the incomparable mess.”

    Opinion, and irrelevant.

    I will say it again, none of this is relevant to me right now, if ever. All you are doing by continuing to push this is to beat a dead horse.

  26. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    Not you. I can google too, and I also know the difference between working hardware (DanteNet) and a just ratified standard.
    Not really I did firmware updates to AES67 recently in some hardware.
    https://www.audinate.com/about/news-activity/press/audinate-announces-availability-firmware-update-support-aes67

    oldfart this is not googling. The reality is by the end of this 12 months Dante hardware will all have firmware updates to AES67. You will find the same is happening to Livewire and Q-LAN hardware as well.

    Yes where you had to run 4 different protocols to connect to every makers devices you could have laying around is being reduced to 1 Oldfart. The 4 way split was a true pain in ass remembering they were different bitwidths and speeds.

    RAVENNA that was the existing open standard for audio over network with AES67 was compatible without having todo any modifications.

    just ratified standard” Not really Oldfart. AES67 before it was called this was RAVENNA and AES67 was also ratified 2013

    AES67 is a few extensions to RAVENNA and an agreement to unify from all the ones that were doing layer 3 closed standard to update and convert over.

    Audinate the company behind Dante and the 200+ companies that licensed Dante have agreed to allow the universal protocol.

    Oldfart. the not you comment is wrong. I have done lot of different setups. When you do the setups you get to to have the nightmare of 4 different brands of audio hardware with network ports and not able to connect them.

    https://www.audinate.com/faq-catagories/aes67

    I like how audinate is attempting to keep chin up. Particular with some false claims. AVB group that is AVnu Alliance in fact with Intel backing https://github.com/AVnu/Open-AVB So AVB at this stage is standard and part open source implementation by the standard body including Linux drivers.

    AVB protocol has just put too much pressure on the closed protocols to remain in the incomparable mess.

  27. oiaohm says:

    oldfart jack audio is not a particular platform locked bit.

    Also you have never tested the FOSS software where its the best. I asked you to list faults with Rosegarden on this topic a long time ago and you could not Oldfart. That simple told me that you had not really attempted to consider the FOSS solution at all.

    But it is homework based on my requirements not yours.
    The problem here is you have been narrow minded to expandability and functionality. Of course Oldfart you are going to be too pig headed to get that.

    http://denemo.org/sibelius/

    Oldfart there is a lot of testing done into how badly different programs closed and open screw up musicxml including crashing when importing a score from another program. Yes Finale and Sibelius the two top commercial options can go belly up just as bad as the Open source tools can. Yes finale to sibelius and back again can die with the best of them. This is part of the reason why you need more than 1 toolset.

    Yes the I tried something open source and in failed to import scores fairly much told me you had not use multi different programs in Music or had to deal with multi sourced works. Reality you do find you self needing a collection of tools at times.

    Oldfart I will tell you something that is so bad about music composing formats.
    http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/input/regression/musicxml/collated-files#top
    No official test suite.

    http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/

    Oldfart the problem here is not that the task you are attempt cannot be serviced by FOSS but a case that it cannot be serviced by FOSS that people bother porting to any other platform other than Linux. I did mention a different option of the sound-fonts. There is work on a open source vocal generation solution as well.

    Lot of the arguement against GNU/Linux as a desktop runs into major trouble when you are in a case of using a lot of FOSS applications for particular reasons.

  28. oldfart says:

    ” Guess who has more experience with routing audio around in a Studio setup. ”

    Not you. I can google too, and I also know the difference between working hardware (DanteNet) and a just ratified standard.

  29. oldfart says:

    correction:

    Actually it is you who have never gotten it. It is not the using FOSS that is the issue, it is the giving up my working tool set for one that I consider both inferior and inadequate just to get some feature that you, the self appointed expert, have declared important to any composer that is the issue…

  30. oldfart says:

    “The reality is go away do your homework correct and you will find the same thing as me. As a composer you have no option bar to accept at least 1 bit of FOSS to be able to get good results without having to waste hours adjusting sync.”

    Actually it is you who have never gotten it. It is not the using FOSS that is the issue, it is the giving up my working tool set for one that I consider both inferior and inadequate just to get some feature that you, the self appointed expert, have declared important to any composer
    .
    I have already done my homework sir. But it is homework based on my requirements not yours. When the time comes and if the time comes I will redo my research based on what I require, not some notion that I MUST use a particular technology on a particular platform.

  31. oiaohm says:

    oldfart that you believe I am lier is resulting in you not doing enough homework before answering. Guess who has more experience with routing audio around in a Studio setup.

    The reality is go away do your homework correct and you will find the same thing as me. As a composer you have no option bar to accept at least 1 bit of FOSS to be able to get good results without having to waste hours adjusting sync.

  32. oiaohm says:

    Oldfart raising Dante just shows how little you know.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67
    Number 1 as a protocol Dante is a dead end it has been replaced by AES67.

    Number 2 Dante and all the others AES67 replace are not designed to handle MIDI data. The closed source competitors to netjack in jackaudio that could handle MIDI data died 8 years ago.

    We we come to going over network with audio data you have
    AES 50 and MaGIC in layer 1. All the other closed protocols that have existed at Layer 1 have agreed to switch to AES50. Issue here AES50 and MaGIC work with OS X and Linux network stacks without issues not so for Windows. Both don’t handling MIDI data and MaGIC is basically dead.

    Layer 2
    AES51 and Audio Video Bridging (AVB) again open standard protocols. All the old closed at Layer have agreed to go with 1 or the other going forwards. Again none of these are design for MIDI data.

    Layer3
    AES67 everything that was a closed protocol going forwards has agreed to use AES67. AES67 does not handle MIDI. Everything that AES67 replaces does not handle MIDI.

    Then you have open standard Audio Contribution over IP, Audio Video Bridging (AVB), RAVENNA these again don’t handle MIDI.

    Jack audio by netjack is layer 3. This is the only protocol that routes across network MIDI data and puts MIDI timings on the produced audio streams so allowing the different streams to be synced with each other even in cases of the different producing computers running at different clock speed for some reason.

    Yes the other protocols are designed to sync between real-time device. Jack audio its possible to go out of real-time. So insanely heavy effects can be achieved.

    Oldfart see out of all the protocols there is only 1 protocol still in usage that is useful to a composer. The rest are more about how to get audio from point A to point B and keep it synced.

    Oldfart do you see it now there is no options left. You need to cluster todo something complex that is pushing a system past it limit making audio you really need the means to give up on requiring real-time generation yet still keep the results nicely synced.

    There is talk that jackaudio should add AES67 for the audio channels and keep the netjack for the MIDI channels.

    The reality here is all closed protocols in Audio are disappearing. The competitors to jack audio for MIDI channel routing disappeared years ago.

  33. oldfart says:

    “Eh, no. They have a near monopoly on a certain fashion conscience market, usually “independent” graphics artists. ”

    Eh, that’s your opinion. And you know what they say about those…

  34. Deaf Spy says:

    oldfart,

    Please feel free to drop me a line on deafspy@outlook.com. I’d like to listen to some of your works.

    Thank you.

  35. Deaf Spy says:

    And what you refuse to accept is that for my uses a single desktop is more than enough.

    No one* but OldFart here has ever composed music. But the place is abundant with souls who teach him how to do it, what tools to use, what soundbanks, etc.

    Charming, isn’t it?

    * I have, but only for a limited time, and I used Cakewalk 5 back then. Yes, it was that long time ago. I also used Finale to help a friend in writing her thesis in folk music, and she couldn’t figure out how to trick Finale to accept “measureless” notations – i.e., there are no bars. And I guess my experience is wa-a-ay above Fifi’s. Still, he insists to give advice. Really charming.

  36. oldfart says:

    “This is one of the problems there is no single solution in a large number of content creation fields at the moment.”

    And what you refuse to accept is that for my uses a single desktop is more than enough. I have no need to work with Video, nor will I for the foreseeable future. And then there is also the problem of the source of this information I simply do not trust someone who has not only lied as much as you do, but who has failed to mention the other network based synchronization solutions like

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_%28networking%29

    Did you really think I hadn’t done my homework to see what was out the for multi system sync? I simply don’t need it right now.

  37. oiaohm says:

    oldfart also the reason why finale is so easy to unlicense and re-license is the makers of finale understand that you need more than 1 computer and they will be different types. Due to how platform picky audio vst and other things can be.

    The problem here is you have not understood pro audio people are working in large detail. You have not been at there home desks to see 2 to 3 computers. Like laptop might be Mac and PC on desk both with all software installed. Linux box would be there for speciality.

    This is one of the problems there is no single solution in a large number of content creation fields at the moment.

  38. oiaohm says:

    And I still say it sir, because in the end it is my applications that will keep me off linux as a desktop. At most I would contemplate a move to apple hardware running OS X, but only because all of my music applications are dual license (Windows and OS X) – All I need to do is delete and de-allocate my licenses under windows and then install them under OS X. and continue on with my composing.
    Oldfart you are not getting. Moving to Mac Pro will not solve all the problems.
    1 some VST and other audio parts are platform dependant ie only for OS X, Only for Windows and Only for Linux. Mac Pro can run OS X and Windows but Windows on Mac Pro hardware does not behave perfectly.
    2 Mac Pro hardware selection is more limited.

    This is a true Rock and Hard Place problem. You run Windows PC you cannot network to control other computers or control a lot of commercial audio hardware with network ports at the same time. Also due to Windows PC limits you number of CPU are limited. Also you cannot use OS X applications here legally.

    Mac Pro you can OS X applications you can network to as many devices as your networking supports but you lack hardware expandability runs you into trouble if you attempt running Windows in a Virtual machine with OS X running both doing Audio applications. You also run into other trouble.

    Linux you have all the hardware expandability you could ever want and all the network functionality you could ever want. But you have an application issue that can cause you to run Windows in a Virtual machine and you are still lacking the OS X parts.

    There is no single OS solution that works 100 percent for Audio.

    The setups I have seen are 1 Single motherboard Windows machine 1 OS X machine and a duel motherboard Linux machine. You know what the Linux machine is just doing the heavy processing. Linux cluster.

    Oldfart basically you brought in a No simple solution problem and then was holding it up as some reason for us excusing you using Windows alone. There are many other cases of No simple solution problem out there. Some problems the correct and only correct answer is multi OS. So there is no room at all for bias to any Particular OS. The fact you are not willing to try FOSS applications where they are the best can come back and bite you Oldfart.

    Oldfart now if you had come in here and said I have a setup for Audio using OS X and Windows in combination you would have been on the right track. You also would not have been anti using anything FOSS because you would be using jack audio to connect them by network.

    This is the problem I have Windows only in a lot of cases does not work. Windows + OS X or Windows + Linux is required to get around Windows network issues for creative work. Audio is Windows + OS X + Linux. Yes bugger all need everything. 3d rendering Windows + Linux or OS X+ Linux is workable but Windows + OS X is not (yes a huge number of pro 3d engines are not release for OS X because video cards are lacking).

    Get it yet Oldfart doing content creation you have to be willing to use 3 operating systems.

  39. oldfart says:

    “Exactly why being creative has to be a OS pissing competition. As Oldfart use to say its about the Applications.”

    And I still say it sir, because in the end it is my applications that will keep me off linux as a desktop. At most I would contemplate a move to apple hardware running OS X, but only because all of my music applications are dual license (Windows and OS X) – All I need to do is delete and de-allocate my licenses under windows and then install them under OS X. and continue on with my composing.

  40. oiaohm says:

    ram of course a Linux creative and Apple creative person could in fact be the same person.

    Exactly why being creative has to be a OS pissing competition. As Oldfart use to say its about the Applications.

    To get your hands on the most stable FOSS applications and massive clustering this is Linux. To get your hands on lots of different creative tools OS X and Windows come into play. Problem is no single OS can do everything creative.

  41. ram says:

    “Apple has a near monopoly on the high end computer market, even disregarding creatives, but Apple is known for catering to creatives especially. ”

    Eh, no. They have a near monopoly on a certain fashion conscience market, usually “independent” graphics artists.

    Linux creatives, on the other hand, routinely work with Linux clusters with many thousands of cores. They also usually work in teams for larger (and the largest) production houses. Apple can’t touch that, there are no multi-thousand core Apple clusters. As they say in Australia, the difference between Apples and Linux Clusters is “chalk and cheese” 😀

  42. oiaohm says:

    ” No standard form factor PCIe ports for expansion cards is correct”

    And that was what I was saying. Period,
    oldfart but that was not what you said. There are standard PCIe ports inside for storage shaped devices.

    P.S. Apple no longer sells PCI bus based mac pro’s

    Mac Pro are in fact extremely PCI bus based.

    http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_pro/mac-pro-cylinder-faq/how-to-upgrade-mac-pro-cylinder-ssd-storage.html

    Under the video cards are two custom apple versions of PCIe x16 slots.

    Basically tones of PCIe buses inside just no standard interfaces to use them.

    I do find it extremely evil that the new round Mac Pro two video cards inside in fact two completely different PCIe x16 slots so are not interchangeable.

    Oldfart over and over again you don’t in fact say the correct things at all.

    Yes I have things I hate about apple hardware the amount of customisation they do.

  43. oldfart says:

    ” No standard form factor PCIe ports for expansion cards is correct”

    And that was what I was saying. Period,

  44. luvr says:

    Actually, it just looks like a site for mentally-disturbed rejects. But there is charity in sharing one’s munificence amongst mentally-disturbed rejects, too.

    For a moment, I thought you were talking about TMR, there. 🙂

  45. oiaohm says:

    For someone highly committed to Linux and FOSS you sure seem to have the hots for OS-X and apple One would almost think you actually use apple products.
    Oldfart attend a Linux conference. Linux people are sitting and talking with apple product users. Yes because a large number of the laptops at a Linux conference happen to be Apple laptops. So Linux people knowing Apple products inside and out is kinda a given.

  46. oiaohm says:

    The other things is a thunderbolt port is a ×4 PCIe port. So not a x8 or x16 port. But not all the ports in non apple computer are x8 or x16.

    oldfart what a thunderbolt port is happens to be a display port merged with a x4 PCIe port.

    So saying no PCIe ports is really very wrong Oldfart. No standard form factor PCIe ports for expansion cards is correct. But its never been none.

  47. oiaohm says:

    oldfart Of course they do zippo to change the veracity of what I said. Apple no longer sells a computer with physical PCI bus slots. Period.

    Not true on the physical PCI Bus slots if you had read the spec sheet you would know this. There is a “PCIe based flash storage” Yes there are PCIe slots inside a Mac Pro but they are the slots for storage not general cards.

    Apple does sell Mac Pro devices at times with a thunderbolt expansion chassis box include. Yes when you buy complete kit include Screen keyboard and mouse one of the options is the expansion chassis . So option to install PCI Express cards come with it.

  48. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart this means you don’t know your topic.”

    Nope. I knew about thunderbolt and I had heard about the expansion chassis – thanks for the cites BTW. They are the most useful that you have ever given.

    Of course they do zippo to change the veracity of what I said. Apple no longer sells a computer with physical PCI bus slots. Period.

  49. oldfart says:

    “You are not a pragmatist, you are a Microsoft fanboy. That’s just gross, and let’s be honest, you know it. ”

    Nope. Whats going on here is you got told “thanks but no thanks” and now you are attempting to slime me. You have zero understanding of what I do but that obviously doesn’t stop you from spewing even more bullshit and now poison.

    For someone highly committed to Linux and FOSS you sure seem to have the hots for OS-X and apple One would almost think you actually use apple products.

    How about some honesty from you Mr, apple freak?

  50. LinuxGentlesir says:

    P.S. Apple no longer sells PCI bus based mac pro’s

    Apple produces something far more relevant here: MacOS X. Which actually a respected operating system for creative work. You gave yourself away when you mentioned you are a musician with a high end Windows computer. Apple has a near monopoly on the high end computer market, even disregarding creatives, but Apple is known for catering to creatives especially.

    You are not a pragmatist, you are a Microsoft fanboy. That’s just gross, and let’s be honest, you know it. Microsoft apologists used to be able to hide behind ‘pragmatism’, but it’s become difficult as the company becomes increasingly irrelevant.

  51. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you have claimed to be highly professional yet you keep on doing stupid things yourself as well.

    P.S. Apple no longer sells PCI bus based mac pro’s
    Oldfart this means you don’t know your topic.
    https://thunderbolttechnology.net/tech/how-it-works
    Notice thunderbolt is a PCI e controller.
    http://www.sonnettech.com/product/echoexpress3d.html
    The interfacing box. This is where it get really fun. You are allowed to connect up to 6 of theses boxs. So Oldfart find me a Motherboard with 18 Pci Express slots. That is what each thunderbolt port is offering. 18 ports inside a single case is not going to work either.

    Lets say we are wanting to build something better than OS X is offering. You are talking duel motherboard with each motherboard with 8 PCI Express slots and using motherboard interconnects. Few problems general desktop Windows don’t run on this due to too many CPU units. Running server version of Windows as a Desktop brings a stack of its own problems.

    The problem with the Dell Oldfart brought in is that the Thunderbolt port is an add on. 18 cards router by 1 PCI port number that should work without issue (Of course not Dell never tested that combination yes there is a reason why Thunderbolt need to be on motherboard).

    Yes something that annoys me about Thunderbolt is that it was not designed to be a motherboard interconnect. So we still have Intel and AMD unique motherboard interconnect cables.

    Apple is being their normal self being an early adopter of tech. Yes dropping PCI cards out of the case make sense. 1 power draw each thunderbolt box is own individual power supply so a malfunction in a card only takes out that box so you will get to save your work. Compared to a general/Server x86 class hardware where the card can crash the complete computer so losing your work.

    Yes there are issues to what Apple has done due to thurderbolt tech being young.

    If someone is running a business with a lot of FOSS applications on the Desktop due to lack of a Distribution for Windows they can be better off running Linux Desktops. Windows users seam to have missed this point the quality if FOSS on Windows is poor because Windows users don’t have a Distribution for their platform. This is why there are repeated attempts to start projects to allow Linux ELF binaries to run on Windows. Biggest bug bear has been X11. Wayland protocol aligns better into Windows graphical as well by the way.

  52. DrLoser wrote, “You probably “don’t get” why most corporations actually spend good money on Red Hat or SuSE, rather than going with the Free-As-In-Beer Debian.”

    I guess reality doesn’t matter to DrLoser’s arguments… Many corporations do use Debian GNU/Linux. e.g. Munich, Eaton, gazillions of Internet infrastructure outfits, and many support Debian directly.

    A survey of IT pros for small/medium businesses rated Debian above RedHat and below CentOS, so it’s competitive.

    W3Techs found Debian to be the most popular web-serving OS in 2010. I doubt it’s declined much.

  53. DrLoser says:

    Well, interest in bothering to think about the issues raised in Nitwit vs VMware appears to have died down somewhat. If indeed the concept of “thinking” was ever applied by most people here.

    Just to wrap it up, then, I’m going to head off to the original thread and fulfil my obligation to be honest and to complete my argument on the GPLv2. The “other shoe” must always be allowed to drop, should one strive for completeness in an argument.

    See y’all there?

  54. DrLoser says:

    After you sir, after all, you are the one who has the money from your lucrative business.

    Ah, yes indeed. All sensitive business owners should drop at least one Chromebook per year on the nut of some small, defenceless child in the Peruvian Jungle. It is the OLPC way! Besides, they tend to be poorly constructed, and no lasting harm is done to the child in question.

    Dougie seems to be more concerned with simply throwing things away, however — such as Windows installation disks. Hardly as ecologically sound as dropping a friable piece of cheap useless crap on the bonce of some poor defenceless Amerindian who can’t tell the difference between 3 and 4, and in fact doesn’t have the slightest interest in differentiating between the two. But open-minded largesse comes in all shapes and forms, I suppose.
    Sadly, in Dougie’s case, it no longer appears to come in the form of Doug-Brains! You think your supplier is cheap? Doug-Brains are cheaper! What is our secret? It’s not a secret, it’s a total lack of useful or relevant education! And here at Doug-Brains, we are prepared to share our total lack of useful or relevant education with you! We will beat any price, so long as you give us time to take our shoes and socks off to calculate it!

    A shame that. As business propositions in Metropolitan Maryland go, I thought that stood a chance of at least catching on with the more dim-witted Tea Party wing of the Republicans.

    You’ll be glad to know that Dougie’s “new thing” is Microsoft Sucks!

    He’s gone all charitable on us and decided to join a Foundation. (No extra cost! Simply take our Simple Test and your Brain Power will double overnight! Up to a trillion times your current earning potential, Guaranteed!)

    Actually, it just looks like a site for mentally-disturbed rejects. But there is charity in sharing one’s munificence amongst mentally-disturbed rejects, too.

  55. oldfart says:

    ” Is that even a thing? ”

    http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-desktops.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn

    P.S. Apple no longer sells PCI bus based mac pro’s

  56. oldfart says:

    ” So what is it? Are you afraid of people passionate and optimistic about the future and promise of GNU/Linux, that you need to knock everyone down? Or do you just get a kick out of being a jerk?”

    Why don’t you take that up with Robert Pogson sir. After all it is he who is the one who regularly insults the wide world beyond linux with his slave crap. And, come to think of it, you haven’t been very friendly or respectful since I said thanks but no thanks to your ideological spiel.

  57. luvr says:

    Probably not as remunerative as being your psychiatrist, though

    Correction: She’s not a psychiatrist, but a clinical phychologist instead. 🙂

  58. oldfart says:

    “$4000 for a laptop? Putting your retirement money to good use eh? Thats at least twenty-six Chromebooks, devices you could donate if you felt humanitarian enough.”

    After you sir, after all, you are the one who has the money from your lucrative business.

  59. DrLoser says:

    We can only hope for them that it’s a well-paid job.

    Ah well, that would be telling, wouldn’t? Probably not as remunerative as being your psychiatrist, though, Luvr.

  60. luvr says:

    If you truly had limited spare time you’d stop wasting so much time trolling GNU/Linux blogs.

    But, that’s just: They don’t waste their spare time here; it’s their professional time that they are spending here. We can only hope for them that it’s a well-paid job.

  61. DrLoser says:

    What gets me is he bills himself as some kind of ideology-blind pragmatist. But he can’t even use the excuse that he bought a Windows computer because he can’t afford Apple.

    I don’t think you quite understand what a pragmatist is, LinuxGentlesir.

    By no stretch of the imagination is it pragmatic to eschew a suitably powerful piece of hardware (Windows) that only costs ~50% of the alternative (Macintosh).

    I tentatively conclude that “what gets you” is your complete inability to understand how purchasing choices are made in the wider world outside Linux.

    You probably “don’t get” why most corporations actually spend good money on Red Hat or SuSE, rather than going with the Free-As-In-Beer Debian.

    What gets me is why you even bother trying to think about this stuff. It’s not really your strong point, is it?

  62. DrLoser says:

    Redhat and Debian provide versions of Musescore have on average 12 extra patches applied. Also Debian and Redhat have stayed at 1.3 Musescore until Musescore 2.0 becomes more stable.

    So, what oiaohm is saying here is that, yes, the Linux version of Musescore is about as up-to-date as it gets, and yes, oldfart can expect (according to oiaohm) to see a miraculous improvement in Musescore’s ability to import files from Finale.

    Isn’t it easier just to say, “Yes, you can expect that?”

    Not true, mind you. Just considerably less convoluted, and rather more to the point.

  63. dougman wrote, “$4000 for a laptop?”

    That’s not too unusual. After all, some people buy Macs and don’t drive a car… If I were using a computer to compose music, I’d probably use a desktop box rather than a notebook simply because a raft of speakers for the sound system is not likely to be very portable but it does give the option to compose in the park or at work in rest-periods. Whenever I’ve bought a notebook it was always to use folded up with a big monitor, keyboard and mouse installed. I can’t ever remember walking around with a notebook except to check wifi signal strength… A smartphone is easier to carry for that. Still most people buy notebooks these days. I don’t know why except that at my local Wal-mart they don’t even have a desktop on display.

  64. dougman says:

    $4000 for a laptop? Putting your retirement money to good use eh? Thats at least twenty-six Chromebooks, devices you could donate if you felt humanitarian enough.

  65. LinuxGentlesir wrote, “Even worse, a $4000+ Dell??”

    When I was a first-time computer teacher, one of the exercises we did on our GNU/Linux thin clients was to “shop” on the web for computers and parts. This was nominally to teach nomenclature but actually I was empowering students to be free of Wintel. Anyway, one of my assignments was to figure out the most expensive PC one could buy from Dell… By getting some great and powerful beast and adding their expensive hard drives, RAM and extra this and that we ramped it up to ~$80K… Makes old fart seem tame. That was about 2003, the good old days of Wintel. We also found we could create a wonderful terminal server for our lab for just over $1K and serve 30 students simultaneously far better than M$’s current offering using a nice AMD chip, 1.5gB RAM and a couple of hard drives. Compared to Lose ’98 on the lab’s machines it flew like a falcon instead of a pig.

  66. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart,

    As Adam Queen mentioned, this is a GNU/Linux blog, I’m passionate about GNU/Linux. Apparently this is some major problem, because you come here, say how you never want anything to do with it, insult everyone including the blog owner for daring to have passion for something you apparently hate, repeatedly even. So what is it? Are you afraid of people passionate and optimistic about the future and promise of GNU/Linux, that you need to knock everyone down? Or do you just get a kick out of being a jerk?

  67. Adam Queen says:

    “So why then are you trolling this blog Queef?”

    oldfart he ‘s not trolling , he just prefers open/libre/free software and has every right to defend it. DrLoser is doing morally wrong , he ‘s still commenting on this blog after getting banned 3 times. Which one sounds more wrong oldfart? DrLoser admits he will get banned , so why is he still commenting here also? What he ‘s doing is pointless and he will never be able to mute the ones who defend GNU/Linux. It ‘s already been 7 years , and still no progress from oldfart and DrLoser.

  68. oiaohm says:

    O-kay
    So then I should just be able to install the linux version on one of my Red Hat VM’s
    and repeat my tests and all should be well

    is that right eh?
    Redhat and Debian provide versions of Musescore have on average 12 extra patches applied. Also Debian and Redhat have stayed at 1.3 Musescore until Musescore 2.0 becomes more stable.

    Fedora has the 2.0 Musescore and yes it already has patches. Redhat main you will be stuck with 1.3 Musescore at this stage.

    Please note most people using Musescore on Linux have been using the development branch due to stack of broken.
    Oldfart
    http://prereleases.musescore.org/linux/nightly/
    Development branch. When ever someone rewrite and engine you can bet for a few versions it going to be bad.

    The fact that Muscore blew up out of the box in the critical operation of migrating my existing scores, was game set and match for me in the operations that count.
    You have to be very careful with the idea of existing scores you have the same problems when migrating between programs made by different makers at times.

    Oldfart you don’t have distribution patched 1.3 Musescore on Windows. So you are stuck between two broken programs.

    Yes the arguement that you wish to get applications direct from Vendor can turn into a nasty problem. People complain about Linux Distrobutions providing out of date versions of things. Distributions provide QA tested versions of the applications.

    Oldfart as you said you did not want to be a Beta tester so why in hell were you trying the Windows version?????

  69. oldfart says:

    “If you truly had limited spare time you’d stop wasting so much time trolling GNU/Linux blogs.”

    So why then are you trolling this blog Queef?

  70. oldfart says:

    “Musescore 2.0 fixed a huge number of faults.”

    And unfortunately for you that was the one the blew up. Of course as usual you miss the point that I have been making all along in one form or another,

    In order for me to change application(s), the application(s) in question have to for me be so head and heels qualitatively better than what I am using that I want to change to them. The fact that Muscore blew up out of the box in the critical operation of migrating my existing scores, was game set and match for me in the operations that count.

    “This is the big problem when people say they tried FOSS on Windows. Normally the program behaves nothing like the program Linux people use.”

    O-kay
    So then I should just be able to install the linux version on one of my Red Hat VM’s
    and repeat my tests and all should be well

    is that right eh?

  71. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oiaohm,

    What gets me is he bills himself as some kind of ideology-blind pragmatist. But he can’t even use the excuse that he bought a Windows computer because he can’t afford Apple.

  72. oiaohm says:

    LinuxGentlesir that so true. The issue is particular VST files are only for OS X. OS X does not have the Issues windows does. Top it off Oldfart rules out using FOSS that is required to work around these issues.

    Yes Windows, Linux and OS X in Audio all have their own unique tools and features. Not being willing to use 1 of them is tying one hand behind one back for no good reason.

  73. LinuxGentlesir says:

    And yes I know that what I really could have done is made a bug report to the creator and offer my services an unpaid betatester, which would require me to stop composing and give up some of my precious spare time.

    If you truly had limited spare time you’d stop wasting so much time trolling GNU/Linux blogs.

  74. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart,

    You missed the key difference, the ability to run MacOS X. Your Dell can never do that. You are actual much worse then a cheapskate, you are a spendthrift. A $4000+ computer for your use case? Those MIDIs must be something else. Even worse, a $4000+ Dell?? Is that even a thing? It’s like buying a $80,000 Kia. Anyway it’s your money to get suckered out of. I sure as hell wouldn’t trust you with a school’s IT budget.

  75. DrLoser says:

    I like it recently that company Quality control has improved so now the number of new programs with easter eggs is reducing.

    Well, that’s obviously why companies employ Quality Assurance guys/gals, isn’t it?

    The world is safer without Easter Eggs!

    Don’t let that Nasty Easter Bunny bite you in the bum!

    Tosh. Pure tosh.

  76. DrLoser says:

    The many eyes theory does hold true most of the time.

    Outside of the kernel, and possibly glibc … no, it doesn’t hold true. It’s meretricious self-serving crap.

    Exhibit one, at random? Musescore.

    Need I remind you of the defects I detected in a single small wrapper file?

  77. DrLoser says:

    The idea that you can test out FOSS on Windows and gauge FOSS is incorrect.

    Did anybody claim that, Fifi?

    I think not.

  78. oiaohm says:

    The reality is nothing like Linux Distributions exist for Windows. OS X has fink.

    The many eyes theory does hold true most of the time. There is no application without bugs. I like it recently that company Quality control has improved so now the number of new programs with easter eggs is reducing. The fact that a easter egg could be inserted is a lack of code review in most cases.

    The idea that you can test out FOSS on Windows and gauge FOSS is incorrect.

    The key advantage of FOSS is the fact you can have a third party vendor audit between you and the vendor and the third party vendor can in fact fix things.

  79. DrLoser says:

    Remember I am a rosegarden user mostly.

    How could we ever forget, Fifi? I understand that the main reason you never mentioned it in the first place is because it is tattooed in one of your “intimate places.”

    Heaven forfend that you should openly flaunt your “intimate places” online. We shall just have to take your girlish charms and your obvious lack of fraudulent incompetent lying on tick, sha’n’t we?

  80. DrLoser says:

    The first thing that I did was to feed it a midi file from, one of the last compositions that I made using the multi-track midi sequencer application (Sequencer Plus Mark III) that I composed with in the mid 80’s through the early 90’s.

    That’s a very unfair comparison, I think, isn’t it, oldfart?

    I mean, Linux was only just getting its feet wet in the early ’90s.

    Do please allow the splendid, yet somehow nascent, applications based upon a rock-solid kernel to catch up to your unreasonable demands.

    Say, 2040 or so?

  81. DrLoser says:

    But when I attempted to load this midi file onto musescore, the poor lil’ fella just sat there for a long time, then wet its metaphorical pants and crashed.

    Come now, oldfart, did you not try the FLOSS Chant of Boddhisatva?

    “I am not a cheapskate who is doing this. I am not a cheapskate who is doing this. The free and open and libre, whatever that is supposed to mean, software is not doing this.”

    What a surprise! The free and open and libre software is indeed not doing this.

    Well, that’s what Buddhism does for you, I suppose.

    Onwards and upwards, FLOSS!

  82. DrLoser says:

    Rosegarden is older so more mature at doing a lot of things.

    So are old age pensioners, Fifi.

    You’re probably more attractive under a flickering lamp-post, however.

    Just about.

  83. oiaohm says:

    oldfart so far you have not mentioned the version of Musescore. Remember I am a rosegarden user mostly. Rosegarden is older so more mature at doing a lot of things.

    Musescore 2.0 fixed a huge number of faults.
    http://musescore.org/en/whats-new-musescore-2

    Yes they redid the Musicxml and Midi import in 2.0. That was only released 8 days ago. Please note most people using Musescore on Linux have been using the development branch due to stack of broken.

    The reality here a few people did go to the effort of reporting the errors Oldfart. The result has been a few years down the track majority got fixed.

    http://muse-sequencer.org

    The problem here I was mostly thinking about Muse Sequencer that its older and again Linux only.

    Oldfart if you go back you will find that Finale did have some Midi file issues in windows 3.11 and 9x. There are some extensions that appear in Midi files that are not part of official standard.

    The reality here Oldfart OS X is down right expensive to get hardware. Linux and Windows are cheaper. Windows has a screwed up network stack due to Microsoft coding in limits to enforce software license terms.

    There is method around the Windows scaling problem without using OS X. It is number of connections. You run a Linux jack audio server. Yes finale on your Windows machine is a slave to the Jack audio server and is not doing the routing out to multi different computers instead using a netjack tunnel to the Linux Jack audio server so to windows network stack it appears to be just 1 open connection. Of course this fairly much still ruins you day if you are not willing to put foss in your system.

    So Windows + Linux more powerful hardware lower cost.

    Oldfart do you think the version of program we get from Linux Distributions is the same version the Open Source Project released on Windows. The answer is no it not. Why the distribution maintainers apply a set of fixes. Due to this being the case Oldfart do you think Linux people would have had the exactly the same experience as you.

    This is the big problem when people say they tried FOSS on Windows. Normally the program behaves nothing like the program Linux people use.

  84. DrLoser says:

    And yes I know that what I really could have done is made a bug report to the creator and offer my services an unpaid betatester, which would require me to stop composing and give up some of my precious spare time.

    There are very few occasions where we get to examine this “inspect, correct, redistribute” thing, oldfart.

    Yours is one of them.

    And, of course, Robert’s discovery of several flaws with GEBC is another one.

    Both of you are despicable in the Sight of the Toe-Gobbling One.

    Neither one of you submitted your corrections to FLOSS, did you?

    Now, as it happens, I have corrected all the GEBC flaws that Robert pointed out. I could submit them to this long-dead project. But I prefer to wait until Robert comes out with his New, Improved, Web-Happy, Pascal version.

    Which I will naturally be more than happy to code review.

  85. DrLoser says:

    After getting banned three times you should realize that there are limits to how disrespectful you can be here. You are getting obnoxiously insulting and combative and you really should start toning that down.

    Ooh, Maisie!

    It’s not up to you, Adam. It’s up to Robert.

    Bleating for protection from “the narsty man” is something that probably comes naturally to you, what with being a pathetic little wimp.

    Robert is made of stronger stuff. At some stage, he will ban me. And he will presumably have a good reason to ban me.

    But it won’t be some stupid little school-girl crush on Laurence Lessig, or whatever other childish reason you can come up with.

    It will be Robert, who owns this site, who bans me.

    Not some miserable little Johnny-come-lately like you, Adam.

  86. oldfart says:

    And yes I know that what I really could have done is made a bug report to the creator and offer my services an unpaid betatester, which would require me to stop composing and give up some of my precious spare time.

    Fortunately I am both a) unenlightened and b) in possession of licensed software tools running on windows that do what I need.

    SO guess what I am going to do Mr. L?

  87. oldfart says:

    “First of all, have you actually priced out an Apple computer versus a similarly spec’ed Windows computer in the last five years?”

    Yep , the 15 inch macbook pro come up almost to the slightly more ($4405.00) than my dell precision portable but only has 16Gb RAM. To get to the 32Gb of RAM that I have now I need to go to a 27″ iMac ($4141.95) this unit doesnt have PCI slots. However with given the speed that the thunderbolt ports are supposed to support, lack of PCI bus slots isn’t the killer that it used to be.

    Of course I’d have to give up Dual CPU’s PCI bus slots and memory upgrades above 64Gb if I went apple.

    ” Secondly, are you some kind of cheapskate?”

    What do you think?

  88. oldfart says:

    “It’s not going to be some sort of broken dreck like MuseScore on Linux.”

    On that front, I held my nose and loaded the windows version Musscore onto my system. The first thing that I did was to feed it a midi file from, one of the last compositions that I made using the multi-track midi sequencer application (Sequencer Plus Mark III) that I composed with in the mid 80’s through the early 90’s. The Midi file export of my work files for a 565 measure 23 minute long pseudo orchestral composition. Finale, even in its 25+ year old versions on windows 3.x never had problems consuming midi files this size and coming up with a notated score. Finale 2014 still has no problems loading this ancient midi file and has advanced enough that it come up with a better rendition that the original (to be expected).

    But when I attempted to load this midi file onto musescore, the poor lil’ fella just sat there for a long time, then wet its metaphorical pants and crashed.

    Then figuring that perhaps that ancient MIDI file was a tad too old, I tried something more modern, so I took another large composition (313 measure’s 43 minutes) and exported it to music xml format, and then tried to input it into musescore in this format. This time the lil’ fella didn’t choke and die, but what it presented as a score had

    a few… er… errors…

    Actually a lot of errors in notation. I tried fixing a few of the worst ones, but gave up after 10 minutes when one of the wierder misinterpretation’s refused to go away.

    Now perhaps I am being too hard on Musescore, but your little exercise of your 4 freedoms rights would seem to be corroborated by my experience

    musescore is, unfortunately as of now, broken dreck.

  89. oldfart says:

    ” Windows machines are just cheap crapware laden Facebook and video game machines.”

    Considering that my dell portable cost over $4000.00 and, unlike your typical linux distribution, came with neither crapware nor games, I would think that this statement is a pretty ignorant one sir.

    The fact remains that while OS X does indeed have the lions share of the musician composer population, it is not longer exclusive. Plenty of musicians of all stripes use the windows versions of these products – enough so the ISV’s making music related software and hardware offer versions for the wintel platform – something that they would not do if there was no money to be made.

  90. oldfart says:

    ” I have never listened to a single composition by either one of you. ”

    Hearing my music can be remedied if you can contact me with a place to drop a sample off-line from this site. Whether you opinion of me will change for the better remains to be seen.

  91. oldfart says:

    “You are getting obnoxiously insulting and combative and you really should start toning that down.”

    While you can high-mindedly crap on anyone who has the temerity to say thanks but no thanks to your ideological bullshit.

  92. LinuxGentlesir says:

    As a matter of fact, Puppykins, Robert has banned me at least three times already. (I got a bit naughty and used an assumed name and a hidden IP address.)

    After getting banned three times you should realize that there are limits to how disrespectful you can be here. You are getting obnoxiously insulting and combative and you really should start toning that down.

  93. DrLoser says:

    I’ve sort of given up on the exception thing, btw.

    None of you are up to it. Period.

  94. DrLoser says:

    Well, now. On a pure code-review basis.

    Let’s assume that rampant copypasta inside what is merely a C++ decoration class for a C interface is somehow acceptable.

    Any comments on the obvious complete lack of encapsulation?

    I mean, goodness knows. We’re all experts on object-oriented programming here.

  95. DrLoser says:

    I think eventually Mr. Pogson will tire of your trolling and ban you, and you’ll go and cry in a corner because you’ll have nowhere else people will allow you to troll.

    As a matter of fact, Puppykins, Robert has banned me at least three times already. (I got a bit naughty and used an assumed name and a hidden IP address.)

    I can’t speak for Robert, but I believe the current position is as follows:

    1. I contribute to this blog and am occasionally rude to Robert.
    2. Robert owns this blog and is occasionally rude to me.

    Both Robert and I are mature enough to accept this sort of thing. Robert is happy enough to accept and even enthuse over your dismal little contributions. Which is as it should be. Robert is the ultimate arbiter of this site. He’s the one who puts effort into it, not a bunch of blood-sucking drones like the rest of you.

    The time may come when Robert bans me yet again. And that is his privilege. And I will respect Robert’s decision.

    But it ain’t your privilege, Puppykins.

    Have you tried a coherent and relevant argument? It’s an adult sort of thing.

    You’ll get the hang of it eventually.

  96. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Dr Loser,

    I think eventually Mr. Pogson will tire of your trolling and ban you, and you’ll go and cry in a corner because you’ll have nowhere else people will allow you to troll.

  97. Dr Loser says:

    Strong Exception Guarantee, anyone?

    You’re excused, LinuxGentleSir. Apparently you’re even less qualified than Doug-nut.

    Difficult to believe, but apparently true.

  98. Dr Loser says:

    If you are doing music work, it’s either MacOS X or GNU/Linux first of all. Windows is not part of the equation, at all.

    Let’s just assume that oldfart is an ignorant, unqualified, talentless twerp like you, Puppykins.

    I think that’s a fair assumption. I have never listened to a single composition by either one of you. I happen to know oldfart on-line for several years now, but in terms of composition …

    … I have no evidence whatsoever that he is not an ignorant, unqualified, talentless twerp like you.

    Which puts the both of you on a level playing field, as it were.

    Now, let’s examine your pathetic proposition, shall we?

    Apparently, oldfart has the “choice” — restricted, but still a “choice” — between Linux and OSX. According to an ignorant, unqualified, talentless twerp.

    Fine. Run with that thought.

    Guess which platform oldfart would prefer?

    Huge Clue: It’s the one that supports the music composition apps that he works with in his spare time, DUMMY!

    Oh, and just in case you are too brain-dead to work that one out — out of the two options you just put on the table …

    … It’s not going to be some sort of broken dreck like MuseScore on Linux.

  99. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Forget just music. We are way past the point where it acceptable to promote Windows as a solution for ANYTHING. Windows the butt of every joke in the mainstream press, especially hated latest release Windows 8. Windows 10 is becoming even a bigger failure if that is even possible.

    It’s really a race between Mac OS X and GNU/Linux for serious work. People who use Windows are doing serious creative or scientific work, Windows machines are just cheap crapware laden Facebook and video game machines.

  100. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart,

    If you are doing music work, it’s either MacOS X or GNU/Linux first of all. Windows is not part of the equation, at all. If you are like nope I prefer MacOS X over GNU/Linux for music blah blah that’s far less controversial. I can understand that. You wouldn’t be laughed at the way you are now.

    But you are actually lecturing us about using Windows for music work. Really?? You were complaining about how much Apple machines cost??? First of all, have you actually priced out an Apple computer versus a similarly spec’ed Windows computer in the last five years? Secondly, are you some kind of cheapskate?

  101. Dr Loser says:

    I seriously doubt that you have anything else to say.

    Whaddya mean, “anything else?”

  102. oldfart says:

    ‘oldfart 10 you found in vst are basically not the ones that were used in classic scify Music. Bristol is 30+ in on hit. Those 10 you found oldfart are 1 each. Yes all the ones in Bristol will operate with each other without causing glitches as well. This is the problem it takes a lot of effort to use VST files with each other without ending up in hell.”

    I have zero problems with VST plugins sir. And even if down the road I should have problems, it is going to take a lot to have me changing platforms.

    And since all you can come up with so far is this esoteric use case that is irrelevant to me anyway, I seriously doubt that you have anything else to say.

  103. DrLoser says:

    Well, I say that. It’s possible that even trying to access client will cause a memory exception. (But very unlikely.) And it’s possible that a call to qDebug will cause an exception to be thrown. (But even this shoddy code has probably taken that into account.) And it’s even possible that a call to strerror will throw an exception, although I believe there’s an actual standard-based guarantee against this sort of thing.

    Let’s assume that, realistically, none of that is ever going to happen. What else could possibly go wrong?

  104. DrLoser says:

    For those of us who are still interested in a technical discussion on its own merits, rather than a Google-splatting, let’s address my intermediate contention that, in this particular case, letting an exception escape is almost certainly not a present issue. Although it might be a future issue. In the unlikely event that any of you has not Downloaded and Examined the code, here’s the destructor in question:

    JackAudio::~JackAudio()
    {
    if (client) {
    stop();
    if (jack_client_close(client)) {
    qDebug("jack_client_close() failed: %s",
    strerror(errno));
    }
    }
    }

    The things to focus on here are the calls to stop() and jacl_client_close(). It’s tolerably obvious that nothing else here is going to throw an exception, so apart from these two calls, the question is moot.

    Now. Why do neither of these two calls present a present issue?

    And perhaps more interestingly, why would either (or both) of them present a possible future issue?

    As always, I have to remind everybody that resource reclamation is not the issue.

  105. DrLoser says:

    I will post about stuff but never respond to your posts any more.

    It’ll be interesting to see how this “principled” position of yours unravels when you finally figure out what happens when a C++ destructor allows an exception to escape, Fifi.

    Sweepstakes are now open to the masses. I’m predicting that Fifi posts a marvellous new insight on the subject in about four days’ time.

    Overs and unders, anybody?

  106. oiaohm says:

    Really I have fall into going into Off topic due to pest trolls.

  107. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser I am now sick of fifi from you. I will post about stuff but never respond to your posts any more.

  108. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser Dwarf is not exactly platform neutral.

    I never said it was.

    Stop banging on about Dwarf, Fifi. Resource reclamation is not the issue.

    You really have no idea at all of how C++ implements a destructor, do you? I’ve given you two fairly substantial hints already. (Three, if you count the two books I cited which I know you are never going to read.)

    This is pitiful fare, Fifi. Pitiful. Even by your debased standards.

  109. DrLoser says:

    Gawd help us all if we ever get into a discussion about the Strong Exception Guarantee, btw. I’m 100% sure that I can find examples in MuseScore where this shoddy little non-product violates that guarantee.

    The very concept is probably beyond the Kindergarten Programmers on this site, however.

  110. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser Dwarf is not exactly platform neutral. Dwarf is not that usable under windows because its default exception system is not Dwarf.

    oldfart 10 you found in vst are basically not the ones that were used in classic scify Music. Bristol is 30+ in on hit. Those 10 you found oldfart are 1 each. Yes all the ones in Bristol will operate with each other without causing glitches as well. This is the problem it takes a lot of effort to use VST files with each other without ending up in hell.

    So what? I’ve already told you: this is not the issue. It happens to be a non-event in any case, since every exception-handling mechanism of which I am aware provides equivalent information in debug mode. But, non-event or not, this is not the issue.
    No you miss read dwarf unwind is based off debugging information the complier made so more detailed process. Windows default jump based attempts to create everything at runtime. These two beast behave very differently.

  111. DrLoser says:

    Oops, add:

    4. Total lack of encapsulation

    … to that list. The Miracle Of Dwarf is indeed a fine thing. Why, one hardly needs programmers at all, does one?

    Which, given that oiaohm is no sort of programmer whatsoever, is probably quite useful in his case.

  112. DrLoser says:

    It seems to be taking a very long time indeed to reach an understanding of how exceptions interact with destructors — something that has been widely known since Herb Sutter in 1999 and even Scott Meyers in 1997.

    I’m looking forward with keen anticipation to an explanation on how the Miracle Of Dwarf can help with

    1. Off-by-one errors
    2. Bone-headed copypasta programming
    3. World-class feeble logging

    Really, I am. I am not even worthy to read Fifi’s cites on any of that.

  113. DrLoser says:

    Yes C constructors and destructor are different beasts in gcc C and they wrap around int main(). Of course you are not talking about these C based constructors/destructor.

    Different beasts? Technically, they don’t even exist. Your miserable and pointless cite merely demonstrates that it is possible with gcc to hack into the underlying library implementation of exception-handling in order to do …

    … what? I’m struggling to find a useful motivation to perform this hack. It only operates at the global level. It can therefore only deal with global variables.

    There seems to be no point at all to this party trick. By definition, main() is already on the way out, so you really don’t have anything useful to do. And as for resource reclamation, wasn’t that what the Miracle Of Dwarf was supposed to do for you?

    Concentrate on the present issue, Fifi. Concentrate on the present issue.

  114. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser you can raise and exception inside a try catch without problems to be caught by one on the outside right?

    An appeal to authority? You don’t catch me out by your lick-spittle fawning here, oiaohm.

    Yes you can. Indeed, this is relevant to the discussion. Here’s a hint: define “outside.”

  115. DrLoser says:

    So calling it a non standard implementation is not correct. Everything not Microsoft basically uses it.

    I’m not calling Dwarf a non-standard. I’m calling the as-yet-unimplemented mechanism to facilitate exception escape a non-standard. Can’t you read?

    As always I will try to help you out with your googling. The mechanism to which I refer is an open standard proposal. I have in my figurative hands an excellent description of it by Herb Sutter, back in 2013.

    It doesn’t feature Dwarf. It is entirely platform-neutral.

    Your inability to follow a line of argument means that the rest of your post was, as so often, inconsequential gibberish.

    Now, answer me this simple question: why is it universally considered to be a bad thing to allow an exception to escape from a destructor?

    You don’t have a scooby, do you? You don’t even need to have programmed C++ to answer this. All you need is rudimentary googling skills and the ability to understand what you are reading.

    Apparently, Fifi, you lack those rudimentary skills.

    Yes there is way out. Dwarf unwind has access to debugging information for a reason. Debuging includes information about memory structures brought into existence.

    So what? I’ve already told you: this is not the issue. It happens to be a non-event in any case, since every exception-handling mechanism of which I am aware provides equivalent information in debug mode. But, non-event or not, this is not the issue.

    I suppose we can look forward to your now-standard Six Days Of Endless Gibberish before you have gleaned enough hints from those of us who actually know the subject, and finally hit Google Nirvana.

    Oh, the joy of it all.

  116. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart do you happen to own all the synths in Bristol. This is the problem there are a handful of really good Linux only stuff.”

    Have you figured out yet that duplicating the sounds of ancient analogue synthesizers is of zero relevance to me. But if I did I might look at something like what is described here

    http://www.producerspot.com/best-hardware-analog-synthesizers-emulation-vst-plugins

    And I don’t gave to throw away my entire software working set.

    Again nice try, but no cigar.

  117. oldfart says:

    “Oops, the “tiny” list seems to have cut off! Here are some more sites which also include links to other professional sites:”

    Mr R. First I want to thank you for the extensive list of URL’s. It would have been better for the point that you are trying to make if you had actually at least culled the lists for broken links ( I have found 2 so far in just the first few entries). It would also have helped if you actually looked at the software that I used (Finale) and the kinds of instruments. Had you done so you would have figured out that I dont give a tinkers f-rt about emulations of old synthesizers. Nor do I much care about DAW’s or sequencers these days. Nor have I cared about esoteric music creation languages and packages like csound/cmusic in quite some time.

    In fact ALL of what you have chosen to clog up this site with has zero to do with what I have been saying, and much more to do with a clumsy and sloppy attempt on your part to try and deluge me with “proof” that I am wrong about linux support for music creation.

    My need from you is simple.

    1) Show me the linux software combination that gives me what I have now in from the combination of

    Finale 2014
    Garritan Personal Orchestra
    Garritan Marching Band
    Garritan Harps
    Eastwest Symphonic choirs

    2) show me a combination that does it better than the above.

    Think you have the chops to do so Mr. R?

  118. oiaohm says:

    Millions? I doubt it Sir. Care to back up this nonsensical statement.
    Oldfart Its the specialist effect gear. To own everything in Bristol alone is half a million if you buy them cheep lot of the parts Bristol emulates if you can buy them over years at clearing sales problem is they are now collectable items so very expensive to just custom buy. Each one in Bristol to buy the real bit of hardware can put you back 1 million each if you want it straight away.

    Newer devices in fact don’t replicate those old device functionality. Someone asks you for some classic scify sounds redone either pay a fortune or use Linux. There is no VST emulations on OS X or Windows off any of them in Bristol. Then using real consoles to replace some of the other functionality that Linux Native programs provide. Yes your bill gets very large very quickly.

    I was comparing equal environment to equal environment. Also space becomes a huge mother problem.

    Oldfart do you happen to own all the synths in Bristol. This is the problem there are a handful of really good Linux only stuff.

  119. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser http://dwarfstd.org/
    Dwarf is a standard. In that standard does define how todo exception handling.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DWARF

    So calling it a non standard implementation is not correct. Everything not Microsoft basically uses it.

    There is a theoretical way out of the problem of allowing exceptions to escape destructors
    Now there is a question. Is there a point when raising and exception in a destructor is correct. lets say you have tried to free everything and for some reason its already free. Something has gone odd here so why not raise and exception to inform outside class that something has gone wrong. .

    Yes there is way out. Dwarf unwind has access to debugging information for a reason. Debuging includes information about memory structures brought into existence.

    http://mortoray.com/2013/09/12/the-true-cost-of-zero-cost-exceptions/

    destructor in dwarf are standard eframes in g++ yes gcc c++. So just over scaled dwarf try catch finally.

    Dwarf there is no special thing as a destructor for C++ code. Destructor are just part of normal eframes for C++ code generated on Dwarf platform. DrLoser you can raise and exception inside a try catch without problems to be caught by one on the outside right?

    DrLoser get it your own made destructor fails and the dwarf unwind that is the dwarf final code does the clean up for you. In fact this is correct in 90 percent of cases.

    http://phoxis.org/2011/04/27/c-language-constructors-and-destructors-with-gcc/

    Yes C constructors and destructor are different beasts in gcc C and they wrap around int main(). Of course you are not talking about these C based constructors/destructor. Yes raising exception on one of these is bad as they are outside the normal try catch finale setup also its technically not possible to raise exception as gcc and llvmdoes not allow try/catch in those functions. If an exception is raised on a dwarf system and there is no eframe to catch it termination will happen.

    DrLoser like it or not Dwarf supporting platforms are different.

  120. oldfart says:

    ” at least 1 Windows 1 OS X and millions of dollars of hardware.”

    Millions? I doubt it Sir. Care to back up this nonsensical statement.

  121. DrLoser says:

    Then shut the &%$# up.

    I imagine that eloquent response implies that you are unwilling to specify a MuseScore source file for me to examine, Puppykins?

    Ah well. Another opportunity missed for FLOSS.

  122. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser google does not replace knowledge in field.

    Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings …

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  123. DrLoser says:

    Note I said fine on OS X and Linux. This is because of dwarf exception handling used on elf binary platforms. Dwarf exception handling does the memory clean ups.

    “Memory clean ups” are not the issue, Fifi.

    Try again.

  124. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser basically go down load the dawarn source code and read. Yes darwin the open source OS kernel inside OS X.

    Why would I do that, oiaohm? What is it going to tell me?

    Yes sometimes DrLoser makes a mountion out of a mole hill. There are reasons why FOSS programs are more buggy on Windows than OS X and Linux.

    Well,, you seem to be keen to nail your colours to the mast here. Can you specify a single FOSS program that is more buggy on Windows than on the other platforms?

    And can you honestly guarantee that the bugginess is not simply a lousy port by incompetent programmers?

    But, hey, let’s start with a specimen FOSS program, shall we? No sense in jumping to conclusions.

    Some of it is major differences in platform like exception handling.

    There is a theoretical way out of the problem of allowing exceptions to escape destructors, oiaohm. Right now, I am unaware of anybody who has implemented it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the OS platform.

    In any case, this is something that you just do not do as a professional programmer. You do not rely on non-standard implementations. And you particularly do not rely on non-standard implementations when the very simple alternative is to get it right in the first place.

    And since, you, oiaohm, have shown no evidence at all that you understand why allowing an exception to escape a destructor is a Bad Thing, you are hardly in a position to comment on the alternatives, are you?

  125. ram says:

    Oops, the “tiny” list seems to have cut off! Here are some more sites which also include links to other professional sites:

    http://libremusicproduction.com/articles/advantages-choosing-audio-orientated-linux-distribution
    http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20080622143124178/Audio.html
    http://harrisonconsoles.com/site/mixbus.html
    http://lowcostrestaurantmusic.com/
    http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/apps/start
    http://madprof.channellinux.com/
    http://www.hydrophones.com/
    http://wowsia.com/
    http://linuxmusicvideos.com/
    http://djcj.org/audio/lam/
    http://bandcamp.com/tag/linux?artist=1485551842
    http://www.marschall-acoustics-instruments.com.au/MAI-Audio
    http://linuxmusicians.com/
    http://planet.linuxaudio.org/

    and on and on and on…! Look into Linux and video/animation/rendering and you’ll find there are even MORE! — the vast majority of the contributors from organizations that make serious money (i.e. BILLIONS of USD per YEAR) using Linux to create media content. Shills from some minor software marketing company that loses many tens of millions of dollars per year, and has done so for almost a full decade now, should stay away from this site — lest we start alerting our staff even on a holiday weekend 😉

  126. dougman says:

    Re: I have been discussing which is composing music using the enhanced playback features of one of the industry standard music notation packages. Nor will it change the fact that there is nothing available running on Linux that is even close to comparable.

    The needs of one OLD-QUEEF, does not constitute the needs of everyone else!

    If you goto https://www.facebook.com/finalemusic you find 21,217 likes which equals to a rather meager 0.00006% of the population.

    Rather VERY insignificant wouldn’t you say?

  127. oiaohm says:

    http://bristol.sourceforge.net/emulations.html
    oldfart said portable based rig. That would not be your friends base studio right.

    A base studio for audio ends up at least 1 windows 1 OS X and 1 Linux or at least 1 Windows 1 OS X and millions of dollars of hardware. Of course that millions of dollars of old hardware does not have commercial support any more either and when it breaks down costs you a true fortune to fix.

    http://non-daw.tuxfamily.org/ Its not like the Linux side its not without its unique software in Audio.

    Really Oldfart wants to play the commercial software is always best card. If you do this when doing Audio work you will end up costing yourself a fortune and miss out on features your other authors got.

  128. oldfart says:

    “That still will not change the facts on the ground. ”

    nor will you instance on talking about video processing tools and high end studio mixer rigs change the fact that your examples are irrelevant to what I have been discussing which is composing music using the enhanced playback features of one of the industry standard music notation packages. Nor will it change the fact that there is nothing available running on Linux that is even close to comparable.

  129. ram says:

    A tiny fraction of Linux audio application sites:

    *ster includes Pluckster, Hammster, Boxster, and other sample & IR generators from David Clark
    Blues Box a collection of blues and rock rhythm patterns for Hydrogen
    Bol Processor sources are now open, good news from Bernard Bel and Anthony Kozar
    Canorus a new music notation program from Reinhard Katzmann & Crew
    CLAM Music Annotator 0.3.1 visualise/check/modify music information extracted from audio, more cool software from the CLAM project
    Dino neat MIDI sequencer using the latest JACK (with MIDI capability), from Lars Luthman
    Frinika music workstation software for operating systems running Java 1.5
    Gnaural binaural-beat generator, from gnaural (who else?)
    Gsharp extensible Lisp-based music score editor from Christophe Rhodes and Robert Strandh
    HyperMammut software for processing sounds and images, something new from Paul Nasca
    Jesusonic “God’s own effects processor”, it must be good…
    Jokosher multi-track non-linear audio editor, requires Python
    Juce “cross-platform GUI + everything else library”, from Julian Storer, developer of Tracktion
    Kaiku Juhana Sadeharju’s as-yet-unfinished “GVerb + multitap” reverberator
    Khagan interface builder for OSC-based applications, from Loki Davison
    KarmaPod ultracool custom Linux audio workstation from David O’Toole
    Kontroll MIDI utility to generate controller messages from the mouse position, more software from Florian Schmidt
    LinuxMAO is “a French-speaking wiki for worldwide Linux audio users”
    LMMS it’s the Linux MultiMedia Studio, “… a free alternative to popular programs like FruityLoops, Cubase and Logic
    Modulor a “micro-utility” for the Cabel Csound instrument designer
    Mondrian music composition language from Peter Brinkmann
    Open Cubic Player popular module player now available for Linux
    Polish Linux Sound & Music excellent Web site (Polish only!)
    Rhythm Galaxy vol.1 percussion samples from sound designer Artemiy Pavlov
    Simple Sysexxer new MIDI sys-ex utility from Christoph Eckert
    Slag pattern-based audio sequencer/drum box from Alex Marandon
    Sonic Visualiser advanced waveform/spectrogram viewer and audio annotation editor, from Chris Cannam
    TwoLAME new MPEG-2 encoder from Nicholas Humfrey
    ace command-line MIDI splitter/processor, performance software from Atte André Jensen
    arcangel distortion effect, requires JACK, from James Shuttleworth
    b-tektracker MIDI step-sequencer based on TekTracker
    paulstretch high-quality time-stretching software from the industrious Paul Nasca
    rt-script finds and reorders audio process IRQs and IDs to increase priority, from Emanuel Rumpf
    sfubar-3 command-line SoundFont2/WAV/AIFF editor, from Ben Collver
    tkdnoise nice Tcl/Tk GUI for Csound’s dnoise utility, from Hudson Lacerda
    Updated:

    Aeolus version 0.6.6 is out at last
    ALSA now at release level 1.0.11
    AMB Plugins updated version available now
    APODIO updated to version 4.2.23
    Bristol version 0.9.4 now available for your listening pleasure
    Csound version 5.01 has been released !
    Ecmd version 0.82 now with JACK support
    FreeCast release 20060515 is now on-line
    Freecycle 0.6-alpha now on-line
    Freewheeling motorvates to level 0.5.2
    LASH release 0.5.1 now on-line
    MMA (Musical MIDI Accompaniment) attains release level 0.21b
    MusE climbs to version 0.8.1
    Musix GNU+Linux new release 0.39 now available
    NoteEdit beta-2.8.1 now available
    OSS/Linux upgraded to version 3.99.4a, now available for free
    QJackCtl version 0.2.20 released
    QSynth reaches release level 0.2.5
    Rivendell sails into release version 0.9.67
    Shelljam ascends to level 0.0.4
    Smack release version 0.3 is out and on-line
    Snd moves to version 8.1
    Snd-ls updated to v. 0.9.6.2 (really!)
    WONDER sprints to version 2.1.0
    aubio updated to version 0.3.0
    dssi-vst version 0.4 now available
    jackEQ updated to version 0.4.1
    kluppe version 0.5.2 now available for download
    liboggz races to release version 0.9.5
    mjoo reaches level 0.0.5
    netjack vaults to release 0.11
    realtime_lsm advances to version 0.8.6

    <!–

    –>

    Software Sound Synthesis & Music Composition Packages

    General Synthesis Packages

    *ster includes Pluckster, Hammster, Boxster, and other sample & IR generators from David Clark
    Acouphenes small program to generate sounds from neural networks
    Amber granular synthesis for Linux and MacOS
    Audiality David Olofson’s “audio engine… designed for playing music and sound effects…”
    ChucK an audio programming language for realtime synthesis, composition, and performance, from Ge Wang and Perry Cook
    CLAM is the C++ Library for Audio and Music from Xavier Serra and his talented crew at UPF (Note: This package effectively incorporates and replaces Prof. Serra’s SMS)
    Dissociated Studio takes an audio file, segments it, computes a segment similarity matrix, and plays the piece, skipping from segment to similar segment; very cool software from Aaron Lav
    Fugue is by Roger Dannenberg at CMU
    InSpect sound analysis/resynthesis/transformation from Sylvain Marchand
    JASS the Java Audio Synthesis System, from Kees van den Doel
    Loris sound modeling and morphing software from the CERL Sound Group
    MARSYAS is the MusicAl Research SYstem for Analysis and Synthesis or the Manipulation Analysis and Retrieval SYstems for Audio and Signals, either way it’s software from George Tzanetakis
    The MusicKit is being ported from NeXTStep to Linux
    OpenSoundWorld Amar Chaudhary’s “…scalable, extensible programming environment that allows sound designers and musicians to process sound in response to expressive real-time control…”
    SAOL

    SAOL is the MPEG-4 Structured Audio Orchestra Language from Eric Scheirer
    MPEG-4 Structured Audio: Developer Tools a page from John Lazzaro and John Wawrzynek, includes the indispensable sfront
    SAOLsound Paul Winkler’s project “… to provide resources for Csound users interested in exploring SAOL”
    Sounds in SA some SAOL-encoded music

    Sapphire an audio synthesis language by Jim Finnis
    Scripts: Sound for Csound, PowerPV, and TrikTraks, from Drew Krause
    SMS comes from Xavier Serra; a very cool on-line GUI is located here
    Sonic is a digital audio programming language from Don Cross
    Spectroscopic Toolkit “64-bit phase oscillators for nanotonal synthesis”, from Pieter Suurmond
    Spiral Synthesis materials from Tracy Lind Petersen
    Squeak a Smalltalk-80 environment with built-in support for realtime sound synthesis; a description of Linux sound support for Squeak can be found here
    STK Perry Cook’s excellent Synthesis ToolKit; Tim Stilson has also prepared StkLinux, a Linux port of Perry’s STK 1.0
    SuperCollider3 a Linux port of the realtime audio server and object-oriented sound synthesis language
    Tao physical modelling synthesis language and GUI, from Mark Pearson
    Theo Verelst Additive Synthesis Program an additive synthesis program, from Theo Verelst
    Varese synthesis/composition environment from Peter Hanappe
    Virtual Sound audio synthesis tools from Christos Dimitrakakis
    WONDERWave-field synthesis Of New Dimensions of Electronic music in Realtime”, software from Marije Baalman and Daniel Plewe
    gAlan the very cool graphical audio language, originally from Tony Garnock-Jones and now maintained by Torben Hohn
    rt_lpc real-time LPC analysis/synthesis/visualization from the Princeton Soundlab
    wigwamjam “… grows sounds using your decisions to drive the evolution of genetically programmed synth functions”, from Dave Griffiths

    General Music Composition/Analysis Packages

    Amuc is the Amsterdam Music Composer, from Wouter Boeke
    Common Music is maintained by Rick Taube at UIUC

    Notes From The Metalevel Rick’s excellent book on Common Music, a must-have for all students and users
    Plotter Rick’s handy tool for Common Music now available for Linux and GTK
    Scripts: Music routines for Common Music, MIDI and music scripts in Perl, by Drew Krause

    Haskore Computer Music System is a collection of Haskell modules designed for creating musical structures in a high-level style similar to functional programming languages
    The Humdrum Toolkit software tools for music analysis and research
    JFugue Dave Koelle’s Java classes for music programming
    JMSL the most excellent Java Music Specification Language, from Nick Didkovsky and Phil Burk
    LMMS it’s the Linux MultiMedia Studio, “… a free alternative to popular programs like FruityLoops, Cubase and Logic
    LMUSeJ Lindenmayer fractal music software from David Sharp, requires JDK1.3
    Metropro beat generator for “…the composition and interpretation of complex and non-linear tempo…”
    Mondrian music composition language from Peter Brinkmann
    Music Package various music-making tools (in Pascal) from Ulrich Bruchholz
    Musica “… aims at the creation of a complete Mathematica package for the exploration of the interconnection between Mathematics and Music”
    MusicScript “…an open-source music scripting language…”
    OpenMusic the famous software from IRCAM now available in a version for Linux
    ProteinMusic converts DNA sequences to music, requires Java
    Radium unique graphic music-making environment with similarities to module trackers and MIDI sequencers
    Randomposer an automatic-music composer from Stephan Beyer
    Subvert Audio Niall Moody’s “… music program designed to try and stimulate creativity in the user”
    Turtle “… a tool/toy for experimenting with graphics and sound programming… hopefully useful as a vehicle for learning the Scheme programming language”, from Michael W. Schaffer
    XEMO is a “…vision of an integrated composition environment for the analysis, notation and composition of music”
    compo is “a language allowing to describe in a natural way simple or complex musical structures”
    mjoo Leonard “paniq” Ritter’s “new kind of live composition software for the Linux operating system”
    sieve makes music (?) from the Sieve of Eratosthenes
    variations algorithmic composition system developed by Bruce Jacob
    wx12Ton utility for composing and analysing 12-tone rows, requires wxWindows

    MAX-like Environments

    Pd

    Pd Pure Data, a language from Miller Puckette
    GriPD a graphic interface builder for Pd, from Joseph A. Sarlo
    Pd for Linux a version prepared by Günter Geiger
    Pd-Page documentation, research, and patches from Thomas Grill and Marius Schebella
    PDX7 an exploration of 6-operator FM synthesis via Pd, courtesy of Frank Barknecht
    pure-data.info excellent resource site for Pd users

    jMax

    jMax MAX for Linux and Java, from François Déchelle’s team at IRCAM
    jMax-SDIF imports SDIF files into a track of matrices, exports a track to SDIF; from Diemo Schwartz
    jMax Tutorial instructive documentation from Fabrice Medio
    mamalala “…things related to electronic music and the famous jMax
    FFTease package of phase vocoder routines by Eric Lyon and Christopher Penrose, now available for jMax

    MusicV-based Languages

    Cmix is from Paul Lansky and the Princeton Sound Kitchen
    Common LISP Music comes from Bill Schottstaedt at CCRMA

    ATS Juan C. Pampin’s “library of Lisp functions for spectral Analysis, Transformation, and Synthesis”, intended for use with CLM; ATSH is a graphic display/editing/resynthesis environment for analysis files created by ATS

    Csound comes from Barry Vercoe at the MIT Media Lab
    Music4C is from James Beauchamp at UIUC
    Nyquist for Linux is a patch for the UNIX Nyquist source package by Roger Dannenberg
    RTCmix is a version of Cmix maintained by Dave Topper, Luke DuBois, Brad Garton, and John Gibson; RTmix is Ivica Ico Bukvic’s “performance tool geared towards persons interested in live and interactive electro-acoustic music”, especially suited for use with RTCmix
    cmusic is now available in Shahrokh Yadegari’s port of the CARL software to Linux

    Please see the Csound & Cmix Helpers section for related software.

    <!–

    –>

    Softsynths And Samplers

    Note: More softsynths can be found on the Audio Plugins page

    3MU a TB303 bassline emulator; tk3MU provides a useful GUI, thanks to Eric Brunel
    Aeolus Fons Adriaensen’s fabulous pipe organ synthesizer
    ALSA Modular Synth outstanding softsynth fun from Dr. Matthias Nagorni
    AUBE/Metadecks is “…a system for realtime sound generation and processing”
    BEAST/BSE music composition and audio synthesis package with Gtk interface, from Tim Janik and Olaf Hoehmann
    Beatrix excellent organ softsynth from Fredrik Kilander
    Chionic Linux sampling software from Juan Linietsky
    Cumulus real-time granular synthesis with MIDI control
    Delfin a realtime software sampler
    Didgeridoo “a voice controlled resonance instrument” from Stefan Nitschke, requires JACK and a microphone
    Elara a very cool software synth from Steve Brookes
    FluidSynth

    FluidSynth an outstanding Soundfont synthesizer (formerly known as iiwusynth) from Peter Hanappe and many others
    FluidGUI Ken Ellinwood adds a nice graphic interface to FluidSynth
    QSynth Qt GUI Interface for FluidSynth

    FMS is Daniel Gruen’s Frequency Module Synthesizer
    GENPO Stephen Merrony’s neat “generic pipe organ”
    Internet Synth Henry Lowengard’s contribution to sound on the Web (source available by request)
    Javasynth a “Java-based system for creating fully working modular audio systems, which are assembled with programmed functional components.”
    LegaSynth a new softsynth from Juan Linietsky
    LinuxSampler

    Linuxsampler it’s *the* Linux sampler project, supports sample libraries in GIG, DLS, and Akai formats
    JSampler a Java-based front-end for the Linuxsampler engine
    Rui Nuno Capela’s Qt-based GUI for LinuxSampler

    LOS – Loop Offsetting Sequencer “a music sequencer specialized in offsetting sample positions within sound files”
    Mathi’s Music Magic real-time software synthesizer and audio processor; also available here (RPM only)
    MFFM VectorBass a new software synthesizer from Matt Flax
    Mono nice monophonic real-time synthesizer from Jarno Seppanen
    MSS is Mats Olsson’s very nice Modular Software Synth
    Mx4 a new realtme software synthesizer from Jens M. Andreasen
    Octavian software synthesizer pre-beta release now on-line
    Om Dave Robillard’s “… modular synthesizer that runs under JACK and uses LADSPA and/or DSSI plugins for processing”
    PSIndustrializer neat physical modeling synth with OpenGL graphics
    RTSynth an excellent realtime synthesizer for X
    Slat “Sounds like a theremin”, neat synth software from James Shuttlesworth
    Specimen a MIDI-controllable audio sampler from Peter Bessman
    SpiralSynth

    Spiral Synth very cool realtime software synthesizer
    Spiral Synth Modular modular software synth, roll your own synthesizer with its plugins
    SpiralLoops a loop-based sampler with plugin support

    Syncotron Bathysphere Sound Suite interesting sampler/sequencer
    Ultramaster Juno-6 software emulation of the classic Roland analog synth
    Xsynth MIDI-controlled analog-style realtime synthesizer from Steve Brookes
    Zerius Synth software synthesizer with Java GUI
    ZynAddSubFX an impressive new softsynth from Paul Nasca in Romania
    amSynthe very cool analog synth modelling from Nick Dowell
    aRts “simulates a complete modular analog synthesizer” but is also the well-known sound server for KDE
    bristol synthesizer emulator new software from Nick Copeland, author of SLab
    fastbreeder Dave Griffiths’ neat “genetic progamming synth”
    gsynth “…an extensible, modular synthesizer…the interface and current codebase present a simple Roland TB-303 emulator…programmed using fasttracker-style note entry”
    horgand FM-synthesis organ, JACK-aware, with DSP effects and programmable accompaniment
    jackMiniSynth a minimal subtractive synth (with Moog filter) for JACK
    jackOrgan an ALSA sequencer/JACK client for David Bartold’s LADSPA plugin
    simsam Christian Henz’s new “simple sampleplayer”
    sloop.splitter “a realtime sound effect program…generates synthetic sounds from natural ones”
    vOICe Sonification Applet Peter Meijer’s very cool synthesizer, requires a Java-capable browser
    wcnt the “WAV Composer Not Toilet” is a non-realtime modular synthesis program
    <!–
    Ultramaster

    Ultramaster RS101 an incredibly cool “rhythm synthesizer” with on-board synth, sample player, and pattern sequencer

    freebirth excellent software bass synthesizer/step sequencer/sample player
    Sound to Graph to Sound is George Dillon’s exploration of the vOICe
    –>

    Sonic Environment Generators

    Ambient Automat automatic ambience, synthesis, and more from Double Muffled Dolphin
    Boodler Andrew Plotkin’s “programmable soundscape tool”
    Radio Hard Disk unique application from the MidiShare team
    SoundGrid an interesting Java-based music application somewhat similar to Music Mouse
    Soundweave cool looping mechanism to produce endlessly changing sound textures
    jlooch drones courtesy Brad Garton and Java, requires Phil Burk’s JSyn
    phazor creates ambient textures by a very interesting use of the FFT
    whitenoise utility to turn your computer into a random noise generator

    Waveform Generators

    COW Cow Outputs Waves, “C++ classes handling graphs for amplitude and frequency and generating wavfiles out of these graphs”
    TrikTraks/Wigout “two programs for composing waveforms”, from Arun Chandra
    makesound converts PNG graphics to WAV soundfiles
    oa GUI for synthesizing and experimenting with waveforms, from Cedric Roux
    soundmosaic “…constructs an approximation of one sound out of small pieces of other sounds”, cool software from Steven Hazel

    Manuals And Other Documentation

    CLMS Manuals useful on-line material for various SWSS languages, MIDI software and hardware, and synthesis methods
    Digital Soundshapes: Einfuehrung in die Theorie und Praxis der Klangsynthese an excellent online introduction to the theory and practice of digital sound synthesis (mostly in German but with some sections in English)
    The PLUM Page Tim Thompson’s on-line list of programming languages used for music
    Sound, Synthesis, and Audio Reproduction “an introduction to modern sound systems, human hearing, sound synthesis and processing and related topics” from Sampo Syreeni

    Soundfile Editors & Utilities

    General Audio Editors

    Audacity cross-platform soundfile editor with many nice features
    AudioCutter Cinema “audio processing for the more sophisticated demandings”
    DAP Richard Kent’s digital audio editor/processor with XForms GUI
    Eisenkraut audio editor with playback via SuperCollider3
    GLAME audio processor and sound editor
    GNoise a new soundfile editor, can handle very large files
    GNUsound sound editor with support for multiple tracks and 8, 16, or 24/32-bit samples
    JaWavedit WAV file editor written in Java
    Jokosher multi-track non-linear audio editor, requires Python
    KWave a very good soundfile editor for KDE by Martin Wilz
    Lamp the Linux Audio Mangling Project soundfile editor
    LAoE Olivier Gäumann’s “Layer-based AudiO Editor”, requires Java2
    Marlin a sample editor for GNOME
    MiXViews soundfile editor + analysis/synthesis engine
    Nightingale a simple soundfile editor, especially useful for cutting up large WAV files
    ReZound is a “… graphical audio file editor primarily for but not limited to the Linux operating system”
    Snd

    Snd one of the most powerful audio editors available for Linux
    Snd Configuration Scheme code to customize Snd
    Snd-ls a version of Snd for those of us who “don’t know Scheme very well”
    Snd-RT realtime audio extensions for Snd

    SndBite is an “audio editor designed for breaking large recordings into smaller components”
    Snuggles curses-based WAV/MP3 editor
    Studio excellent editor, requires Tcl/Tk
    Swami excellent new incarnation of the Smurf Soundfont editor
    Sweep a new soundfile editor from Conrad Parker
    TAON The Art Of Noise very nice soundfile editor
    WaveMixer easy-to-use multitrack wave editor, from Raoul Hecky & Friends
    WaveForge attempting a SoundForge clone for Linux
    WaveSurfer a new soundfile editor, requires the Snack extensions
    WaveTools a suite of small command-line programs for working with WAV-format soundfiles
    Xforge a new soundfile editor project for X11 and Motif/LessTif
    XS a soundfile editor using Tcl and the Snack extensions
    XWave good basic editor, a patch to add looping can be found at the same site
    aPcStudio soundfile editor/processor with FLTK GUI
    ecawave soundfile editor from Kai Vehmanen, author of ecasound
    mhWaveEdit soundfile editor from Magnus Hjorth
    mpgedit MPEG audio file editor, processes constant bit rate (CBR) and variable bit rate (VBR) encoded files
    quelcom command-line utilities for editing WAV/MP3 files
    sfubar-3 command-line SoundFont2/WAV/AIFF editor, from Ben Collver
    soniK soundfile editor/recorder for KDE
    wavedit old, very basic and limited editor, console-mode only

    A/V Editors

    Blender the premier open-source 3D animation renderer now supports audio tracks
    Broadcast 2000 the only free non-linear realtime audio/video editing system for Linux; NB: Adam Williams has pulled this software from the SourceForge site, but it is still available from Eric Smith’s Broadcast2000 Page
    Cinelerra the impressive successor to Broadcast2000
    Linux Audio/Video Tools a suite of programs to record/playback audio and video under Linux using the Iomega Buz
    MainActor commercial non-linear video/multimedia editing suite
    transcode very interesting audio/video stream processing utility, from Dr. Thomas Östreich

    Utilities

    Beat Monkey calculates soundfile BPM and sample frames
    Sample Calculators very useful on-line calculators for time-stretching, pitch-shifting, and transposing samples
    Wavelength repairs erroneous data length entry in WAV file header
    WavSplit a utility for (surprise!) splitting WAV files according to a list of time values
    abrowse nice utility for reading and converting AKAI S1000/3000 sample CDs
    basef utility for manipulating parameters found in AIFF soundfile header
    jWave set of packages for Java to create and process RIFF (WAV) files
    mirage-disk a utility for copying the samples from Ensoniq Mirage diskettes, from Jean Zundel
    shntool multi-purpose WAV processing and reporting utility
    wavbreaker/wavmerge GUI utilities to break or merge WAV file
    wavcut is a “…short C program for cutting parts from WAV sound files”, from Stefan Ondrejicka
    Denoising

    Gnome Wave Cleaner denoise, dehiss and amplify CD-quality WAV files
    GramoFile a program to clean gramophone recordings for transfer to CD
    GWC-lib the GNOME Wave Cleaner is now a library !
    declick Joachim Schurig’s “dynamic digital declicker for audio files”
    dnr denoising utility from Matti Koskinen
    tkdnoise nice Tcl/Tk GUI for the Csound dnoise utility, from Hudson Lacerda

    Normalizing

    Xpand nice Python/Glade GUI for dynamics compression/expansion, requires SoX and normalize
    calcamp calculates what factor a sample needs for amplification to maximum volume (requires libsndfile)
    normalize “a WAV file volume normalizer”
    wavnorm utility to normalize 16-bit stereo WAV files

    Music Notation Editors

    ABC

    ABC is “…a language designed to notate tunes in an ascii format” (This page is the main resource for abcrelated packages)
    ABC Plus Project many enhancements from Guido Gonzato, including his abcpp (abc preprocessor) and JedABC (abc file editor)
    Jef’s ABC page Jean-Fran�ois Moine’s wonderful extension software, includes abc2mps (abc files to Postscript) and tclabc (Tcl/Tk interface for abc files)
    Skink nice front-end for abc, requires Java
    abcMIDI renders abc score to MIDI file

    BoChord a chord typesetting utility
    Canorus a new music notation program from Reinhard Katzmann & Crew
    Common Music Notation creates and displays traditional Western music scores
    Gscore “a non-page-oriented notation program”, from Sebastien Tricaud
    Gsharp extensible Lisp-based music score editor from Christophe Rhodes and Robert Strandh
    GUIDO a music notation formatting system and server
    LilyPond

    LilyPond is the music typesetter for Linux, outputs TeX, PostScript, PDF, and MIDI files, with an awesome features set and beautiful notation
    Denemo GTK front-end for Lilypond
    Emacs MIDI Input an elisp mode for step-time entry from a MIDI keyboard, from Hans Lub
    LilyComp a graphic note-entry utility for LilyPond, requires Python and Tkinter
    LilyTool a plugin for jEdit, provides functions similar to Emacs modes
    Rumor Vaclav Smilauer’s Really Unintelligent Music transcriptOR, a “realtime monophonic (with chords) MIDI keyboard to Lilypond converter”
    Tutorial de Lilypond A LilyPond tutorial in Spanish, from David Asorey Álvarez
    LilyPond Guide For Beginners a set of introductory tutorials from Eugene Cormier
    lyqi an Emacs major mode for quick insert of LilyPond score code

    Mup music publication shareware from Arkkra Enterprises

    <!– An on-line review can be found here. –>
    MUP Utilities more useful software from Bob van der Poel

    MuseScore the MusE WYSIWYG music typesetter, more great software from Werner Schweer
    MusicEdit music notation software with MIDI output, from Professor Herbert Walz
    MusicXML “… a universal translator for common Western musical notation… designed as an interchange format for notation, analysis, retrieval, and performance applications”
    MusiXTeX full-featured music typesetting via TeX (This page is also the main resource for other TeX-related notation packages)
    MuX2D graphic editor for MusiXTeX files, from Lukas Grützmacher
    NoteEdit an excellent Qt-based notation editor with output in LilyPond, MIDI, and MusicXML formats
    <!– NoteEdit an excellent Qt-based notation editor with output in LilyPond, MIDI, and MusicXML formats –>
    PMW Philip’s Music Writer, an easy-to-use music typesetting program
    Rosegarden score creation from MIDI input and MIDI sequencer, also exports Csound score file
    TinyMOODS demo of a very interesting music notation medium
    XCircuit a drawing package for X which includes some very nice music typography and outputs Postscript files
    tab a lute tablature typesetting system, from Wayne Cripps

    Hardware + Linux

    If you are looking for pro-audio interfaces that will work with Linux applications your choices are limited to certain cards from RME, M-Audio, and AudioScience. Common desktop sound & MIDI needs are well-served by the Audigy and SBLive! soundcards from Creative Labs. USB audio and MIDI interfaces known to work under Linux include devices from M-Audio, Edirol/Roland, and Tascam. Linux-compatible PCMCIA digital audio interfaces are available from CoreSound (also for some PDAs) and Digigram. If you need a serial port MIDI interface the MIDIator enjoys Linux support. Please consult the ALSA Supported Soundcards page for current information regarding drivers for specific devices. Readers are also well-advised to search the archives of the Linux Audio Users mail-list for reports and evaluations from the field.

    Continuum an interesting control surface from Hakenaudio
    Hartmann Neuron fascinating synthesizer running on a Linux core, from Stephen Bernsee and his team at Hartmann Music
    Iomega Buz

    Iomega Buz making it work under Linux
    Iomega Buz driver for DC10plus/LML33/Buz video capture boards
    The Iomega Buz Under Linux information from Rainer Johanni

    KarmaPod ultracool custom Linux audio workstation from David O’Toole
    Mediastation the incredibly cool multimedia workstation from Domenico Colturato and his crew at Lionstracs
    OpenSynth eKo hardware synthesizer with Linux operating system (!)
    uCapps Thorsten Klose’s great site dedicated to DIY MIDI hardware developed under Linux


    Looping Software

    Freecycle Predrag Viceic’s cool “beat slicer”, very useful for defining and editing loops, also creates loop MIDI file
    FreeWheeling live looping instrument from JP Mercury
    SooperLooper excellent looping sampler from Jesse Chappell
    kluppe neat loop player for Linux, from d13b

    MIDI Software

    Sequencers

    Anthem advanced MIDI sequencer from Pete Goodliffe
    BINARS “an open-source sequencer for Linux, ALSA, and GNOME”, from Michael Ashton
    Brahms is “a fully-featured MIDI sequencer, notation system and music laboratory” from Jan Wuerthner
    Dino neat MIDI sequencer using the latest JACK (development version with MIDI capability), from Lars Luthman
    JAZZ++ old integrated MIDI/audio sequencer for Linux
    KMidiTracker excellent tracker-style MIDI sequencer from David Moreno Montero
    Melys MIDI sequencer for ALSA
    MusE excellent Qt-based audio/MIDI sequencer from Werner Schweer
    Rosegarden audio/MIDI sequencer, notation editor, Csound-score producer, and more…
    Shake Tracker a MIDI sequencer with a tracker interface
    SoftWerk a MIDI sequencer from Paul Davis, based on the design of the Doepfer Schaltwerk analog sequencer
    TekTracker MIDI sequencer with tracker-style interface
    TISM is the “Temporal Information Sequencing Machine”, Samuel Dufour-Kowalski’s realtime MIDI sequencer
    Tutka a new MIDI tracker/sequencer from Vesa Halttunen
    b-tektracker MIDI step-sequencer based on TekTracker
    cantor MIDI sequencer/editor project
    pystepseq a MIDI step-sequencer written in Python, from Aaron Johnson
    seq24 excellent real-time MIDI sequencer with a simple interface for editing and playing MIDI loops

    Players

    Musica MIDI player with GTK interface
    TiMidity

    TiMidity++ greatly extended and enhanced version of TiMidity from Masanao Izumo and many others
    TiMidity++ (experimental version) excellent TiMidity resource page
    <!–
    KMidi provides a very nice GUI for TiMidity
    gTiMidity has a Gtk+ interface, thanks to Glenn Trigg
    –>

    Widi MIDI player for external MIDI devices only, from Isaku Yamahata
    WildMidi MIDI player utilizing GUS-format patches
    Xpmidi nice GUI for pmidi from Bob van der Poel, requires Python 2.2 and Tkinter
    fmplay a program for playing a SoundBlaster16 with an external MIDI keyboard, from Antoine Lefebvre (It works with my PAS16 as well.)
    playmidi

    eplaymidi an enhanced version of playmidi from Satoshi Kuramochi
    fXPlayMidi an Xforms front-end for playmidi
    playmidi the original, a command-line MIDIfile player with optional X, Gtk, or ncurses interface

    pmidi a MIDIfile player for ALSA
    pymidiplay excellent command-line MIDI file player from Aaron Johnson
    sparcOmatic renders a MIDIfile to /dev/audio
    srgplay MIDI file player supporting a variety of formats, from K. Sakai

    Utilities

    Alpha Juno editor/librarian for Roland Aplha Juno 1/2 and MKS50 synthesizers, from Chris Wareham
    ALSA MIDI Kommander “a DCOP interface exposing many ALSA sequencer features for shell scripts, Kommander scripts, or KDE programs requiring MIDI sequencer services”, from Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas
    ALSA MIDI Patch Bay “a graphical patch bay for the ALSA sequencer API” (requires FLTK or GTKmm), from Bob Ham
    AutoTrack is a “…tool for creating practizing and demo tracks from chord charts”, creating MIDI files with bass and drum tracks
    Div’s MIDI Utilities for Unix excellent collection of command-line MIDI tools
    FANR free audio note recognition (WAV to MIDI) software from Gilles Degottex
    Folly a text-to-MIDI program written in Perl/Tk
    GMidiMon a simple MIDI monitor, requires GTK
    IMG is a MIDI music composition system with pre-defined “styles”
    Impro generates a random MIDI melody from a group of chords
    JSynthLib universal synth editor/librarian project, requires Java
    KCompact/K25Strip Linux utilities for the Kurzweil K2x00 samplers
    KMidimon MIDI data monitor from Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas
    Kontroll MIDI utility to generate controller messages from the mouse position, more software from Florian Schmidt
    MC303 Bulk Dump a new utility from Olivier Delhaye
    Midge is a text-to-MIDI program from David Riley
    MIDI Backup Utility Java-based system-exclusive send/receive utility
    MIDI Controller GUI to connect sliders and spinbuttons to MIDI continuous controllers (CCs), from Lars Luthman
    MIDI Plug-in for Netscape a control panel for AWE32/64 soundcards
    MIDI Splitter neat Perl script to split MIDI files into separate tracks/channels
    MidiChat send/receive MIDI in realtime over the Internet
    MidiComp reads and writes Type 0/1 MIDI files in SMF and plain text format
    MIDICreator on-line MIDIfile creation utility from Andre Muis
    MidiMutator performs various cross-mutations on a pair of MIDI files
    Midingsolo Gille Degottex’s realtime audio-to-pitch recognition software for monophonic signals, with MIDI output
    MidiShare is a “… real-time operating system for musical applications” from the great crew at GRAME
    OplEdit interactive editor for Yamaha OPL2/3 soundchips, from John Meacham
    QMidiArp very cool MIDI arpeggiator from Dr. Matthias Nagorni
    QMidiControl very useful virtual MIDI controller box
    QMidiRoute MIDI event filter/router from Matthias Nagorni

  130. oldfart says:

    “It’s not even just proprietary vs FOSS. ram is right, you are way too specific about this company’s products to not have an agenda or financial interest in them.”

    No financial interest, and my familiarity with avid is working with a friends portable computer based rig for about 1 week. Avid’s tools is probably the direction that I will go in if I find myself needing a DAW for post production. Right now I don’t have the need for one.

  131. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart,

    Avid avid avid.. did you hear about Avid? Avid’s stuff is all you need.

    Never in history of DAWs has there ever been a DAW that had a large enough marketshare to be the industry standard. On the proprietary side there is Cubase, Fruity Loops, Cakewalk, ACID, Ableton, Logic and others and they all have enjoyed some significant use in their own right. It’s not even just proprietary vs FOSS. ram is right, you are way too specific about this company’s products to not have an agenda or financial interest in them.

  132. oiaohm says:

    LinuxGentlesir note I did type some of it. There is quite a long list of issues that make FOSS on Windows a lot worse than on Linux and OS X.

  133. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oiaohm,

    There are reasons why FOSS programs are more buggy on Windows than OS X and Linux.

    Sometimes it’s because like one person two years ago worked on the Windows port and nobody actively maintaining the project cares about it. So it’s barely working. The software is technically “cross-platform” and advertised as such but works far better on GNU/Linux and OS X. When someone says, why use GNU/Linux when all this FOSS software also runs on Windows, they often conveniently leave out the part where a lot of that software is far less stable and uses 3x more memory on Windows.

  134. dougman says:

    Re: “you have been completely irrelevant ever since you got here DogBrain.”

    LOL….I’m not one talking about some BS music software.

  135. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser basically go down load the dawarn source code and read. Yes darwin the open source OS kernel inside OS X.

    Yes sometimes DrLoser makes a mountion out of a mole hill. There are reasons why FOSS programs are more buggy on Windows than OS X and Linux. Some of it is major differences in platform like exception handling.

  136. oldfart says:

    “I have to say, farter and loser has become increasingly irrelevant these days. As Android apps are available for ChromeOS and Linux, the ill worthiness of Win-Dohs will become increasingly relevant to this blog.”

    Then again you have been completely irrelevant ever since you got here DogBrain.

  137. dougman says:

    Linux is in hot demand these days!

  138. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser just because something is a rotten idea does not mean it does not exist in code and does not work without issues. Note I said fine on OS X and Linux. This is because of dwarf exception handling used on elf binary platforms. Dwarf exception handling does the memory clean ups. Windows jump based exception handling on the other hand does not. So a destructor on OS X and Linux having a exception is not a big problem as Dwarf exception handling design allows for this possibility. Of course there is a price Dwarf stack unwinding to properly free up memory in case of destructor failure makes exception calling on Linux/OS X/…. the Elf based OS slower.

    DrLoser I bet all the ones saying that exception in destructor is bad are all Windows based and yell about memory leaks.

    From a Linux / OS X/Freebsd… coder point of view main reason not to do exceptions in destructors is 1 C++11 conformance and 2 wishing to build on Windows. So exceptions in destructor is something you should be aware of existing in old Linux, Freebsd and OS X code bases. Yes even OS X object c code does exceptions in destructor.

    DrLoser google does not replace knowledge in field. Not being a coder on Linux or OS X you would not be aware of the exception handling difference that allows you todo things that must be forbin on Windows.

  139. ram says:

    “oldfart” is clearly a shill for Avid Corporation (which is losing money fiendishly due to the rise of Linux in media and audio production). Every comment about actual Linux use in professional audio is met by reams of “comment spam” that attempt to bury the actual facts. He also keeps putting in links to the above corporation to deliberately increase their search rankings as the expense of Linux audio sites.

    That still will not change the facts on the ground. The support for Linux by the world’s largest musical equipment manufacturer, Behringer. The giant audio mixers made by Universal, the overwhelming use of Linux at all of the worlds major movie studios. This is easy to check, just look them up (say from the credits of the motion pictures showing near you) and then look at their help wanted ads. You’ll see Linux, Linux, and Linux, but no call for the software marketed by his favourite company.

  140. dougman says:

    I have to say, farter and loser has become increasingly irrelevant these days. As Android apps are available for ChromeOS and Linux, the ill worthiness of Win-Dohs will become increasingly relevant to this blog.

  141. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart,

    No thanks Sir. I’ve already read Saint Richard the Toe-Jam Pickers work. The only thing that I can say is that if you live long enough you’ll outgrow this phase in your life.

    I sure hope not. A lot of Free Software advocates (including the owner of this blog) are graybeards so that brings me hope.

    Perhaps unlike you, I have a great deal of respect for the youth. They have a greater inherent hubris necessary to change the world. I’m trying very hard not to lose that youthful optimism as I get older. Of course, one of my greatest fears is that the folks making a dent in the world do so in their early 20s, and that I’ve missed my chance.

  142. oldfart says:

    “Anyways, you should read it. You should least understand why I view your behaviour as unenlightened. Lessig’s work is also great in this area.”

    Ah. Now I see…

    No thanks Sir. I’ve already read Saint Richard the Toe-Jam Pickers work. The only thing that I can say is that if you live long enough you’ll outgrow this phase in your life. In the meanwhile I will simply have to keep writing music in my limited spare times with my ebil commercial software, And I will just have to learn to live with your view of me as unenlightened.

    As hard as that may be, I think I can manage it.

  143. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Pick a single source file (300-1000 lines, as before) from that total excrescence. Ask me politely to code review it. I will code review it.

    You are then very welcome to submit the relevant bug reports and monitor the results.

    Do we have a deal here?

    We don’t, do we? Because you are a worthless putz.

    Surely the MuseScore community would be very appreciative that you are willing to bring your prodigious coding skills to bear on their hopeless project. Why would you need a worthless putz like me to be a pointless intermediary?

  144. DrLoser says:

    Oh, and off-by-one errors are also a pretty good indication that the code has been written by a clueless moron.

    And vast swathes of cut’n’paste do not exactly inspire confidence.

    And lousy and arbitrary logging facilities tend to make the customer assume that the provider in question is a clueless fool.

    But, other than that, I give MuseScore the Dr Loser Imprimatur of “Jolly Good Stuff.”

    I’m being as fair as I can, here.

  145. DrLoser says:

    Do you want me to give you a hint about that gotcha!, little Fifi? Do you?

    You won’t be able to work it out for yourself. You don’t have the tools. But I am quite prepared to explain why allowing a destructor to throw an exception is a rotten idea. It’s common knowledge. Even an incompetent like you should be able to google it.

    And after that … well, the gotcha! rather depends upon that. So let’s see how far your googling can carry you, shall we, Fifi?

    I promise to give you the gotcha! as a gift. I live to serve.

  146. LinuxGentlesir says:

    My point is not that I have a fix to make. I have not the remotest interest in that.

    Then shut the &%$# up.

  147. DrLoser says:

    Dr Loser, You can submit a proposed fix here.

    Listen, Sonny-Jim, I am well aware of how to submit a FLOSS defect report via either GitHub or Bugzilla, as appropriate.

    My point is not that I have a fix to make. I have not the remotest interest in that. Why fix some piece of eternally broken crap like MuseScore? What’s in it for me? The damn stuff costs me zero dollars and won’t even remotely justify that price.

    Now, since you seem to be a sincere spotty little teen-age dreamer… I’ll go Dutch with you.

    Pick a single source file (300-1000 lines, as before) from that total excrescence. Ask me politely to code review it. I will code review it.

    You are then very welcome to submit the relevant bug reports and monitor the results.

    Do we have a deal here?

    We don’t, do we? Because you are a worthless putz.

  148. DrLoser says:

    I’ll just mention this here. I very much empathize with the words on that page.

    Have you tried “dating?”

    Perhaps not. It’s best not to grow up, if at all possible.

  149. LinuxGentlesir says:

    And where was that ever said sir? I don’t give a tinkers f-rt what you use personally as software. I do take umbrage when I am deemed “unenlightened” for not wanting to immediately throw out working commercial software in favor of ideological pure FOSS applications

    I’m glad you view it as a ideology, because that’s exactly Free Software is. It’s ideology first and foremost. I’ll just mention this here. I very much empathize with the words on that page. Especially pertinent is: “Free Software: More Than “Advantages””.

    If you think that’s a bunch of horseshit that’s fine. One troubling criticism I’ve encountered is the criticism of the notion of ideology itself, and I always wonder what philosophy of life do these critics live under? Is it a question they’ve never considered before? What makes humanity special amongst the animals if not for the ability to reason about purpose?

    Anyways, you should read it. You should least understand why I view your behaviour as unenlightened. Lessig’s work is also great in this area.

  150. oldfart says:

    “I think the pattern is anything that proves them wrong is “irrelevant to the discussion”.

    No what is irrelevant to the discussion is irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about irrelevancies like:
    Continuing to talk up movie render software/farms in the midst of a discussion of the lack of support for my music composition software in general

    “Of course if they can’t enjoy or use GNU/Linux, nobody should.”

    And where was that ever said sir? I don’t give a tinkers f-rt what you use personally as software. I do take umbrage when I am deemed “unenlightened” for not wanting to immediately throw out working commercial software in favor of ideological pure FOSS applications

  151. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Dr Loser,

    You can submit a proposed fix here.

  152. DrLoser says:

    Me: What happens when _framePos is exactly equal to _segmentSize?
    Fifi La Belle Ténia: Never read code you don’t understand. Answers is post a debug message and change nothing. Important in fact old Jack1 does this when a output/input is closing. Yes historic bug compatibility.

    In passing, Tapeworm, what precisely do you intend by proclaiming “Never read code you don’t understand?”

    I mean, nobody here, besides oldfart and I, have so far read the code. Certainly, you haven’t. Is this a get-out clause for mindless idiots who have no intention of contributing back to the FLOSS community?

    Did youreally mean to make that dismal little confession, Fifi? Anyway, that was just in passing.

    Off-by-one errors are off-by-one errors, Fifi. This is an off-by-one error. Either you have run off the end of the buffer (quite probably) or you haven’t. Boolean operations tend to work that way, y’know.

    Look, Fifi, either a thing is out-of-bounds, or it is not.

    In the unlikely event that framePos can sensibly equal _segmentSize, which is pretty bloody obviously an “off-by-one” issue staring a code reviewer in the face, then the debug statement is unnecessary and confusing.

    In the more likely event that it cannot, then the non-existent adjustment is going to bite you in the balls.

    Either way, this is completely amateurish programming.

    But you’re right, Fifi. If you can’t understand the code you read, you shouldn’t waste your precious time reading it at all.

    Gish-Gallop on, my little rodent friend!

  153. DrLoser says:

    Whoopsie, Aunt Mamie, I jest went and broked the Sacred Covenant of the GPL, din’t I? I didn’t give a clear link to the source code.

    Well, whilst I wait for you slavering blood-sucking drones to cook up a pernicious little infringement case in the German Courts, I suppose I should at least encourage you to read the goddamn source code.

    You can find it here.

  154. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Since when do trolls follow this? LOL…. in fact, irrelevant discussion is one of Farters tactics to spread discontent.

    I think the pattern is anything that proves them wrong is “irrelevant to the discussion”. Of course if they can’t enjoy or use GNU/Linux, nobody should.

  155. DrLoser says:

    Oh, and Fifi? I misled you on that “exceptions escaping destructors” thing. As far as I am aware, JackAudio is programmed in pure C. There are no exceptions in pure C. Consequently (as you would have spotted, had you bothered to read the code) there is no possibility of an exception being thrown into the destructor in question.

    Somehow this obvious fact failed to attract you devious, rat-like, yet superhumanly intelligent, ability to spot the flaw in the arguments of other people.

    Ah, but there’s a gotcha! here, isn’t there?

    I’ll leave you to google for that gotcha, oiaohm.

  156. DrLoser says:

    Do you want me to pick another sizeable source file (say, 300-1000) lines out of this Magnificent Exemplar of FLOSS software that not a single one of you has bothered to examine, and analyse its faults?

    I can do that, you know. (Obviously not a single one of you are up to the task, which makes the Freedom to “improve” a Freedom of non-existent worth.)

    I’ll go one better. Point me at your favourite source file, matching this criterion, and I will happily do a code review of it.

    God knows, nobody yet has done this in the entire fifteen year history of the project.

  157. DrLoser says:

    Turns out GCC or LLVM not running in C++11 or better standard mode and on OS X or Linux its fine. Different matter if you do it on Windows. Yes one of the bugs you can expect in a program ported from Linux or OS X to Windows.

    That comment is so utterly stupid, and just plain thorough-going ignorant that I am just going to leave it dangling there as evidence of your inability to understand anything technical at all, Fifi.

    And no, your Gnu cite has nothing useful to offer on the subject, apart from the weird brain-fart of pointlessly relabeling C++ as “CeePlusPlus.”

  158. DrLoser says:

    Elements of the list almost certainly use pointers. QED.

    But while we’re at it, that is most certainly not quod erat demonstrandum at all. In fact, it’s exactly the same stupid and dangerous mistake that JackAudio seems to have made here.

    There is a difference between “pointers” and “pointers-to-pointers,” Robert. You wouldn’t notice this, because Pascal protects you from the concept. (Which makes me wonder why you are arguing in favour of them as a programmatic construct. Just for yucks, possibly?)

    You don’t need pointers-to-pointers to manipulate a linked list. You only need pointers-to-pointers when you are a function returning a linked list to the call-site. (I’m going to ignore the concept of a reference to a pointer here, because it would no doubt cause you severe mental anguish.)

    This is something to be avoided. Why? Well, did you notice that call to free() a little lower down? (I assume you’ve examined the code.)

    That reference to free() is the blatantly obvious reason. Do not ever do this, outside the moral equivalent of kernel programming.

    In other words, these guys are amateur useless dangerous twerps.

  159. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser wrote, “Nobody these days uses pointers-to-pointers.” when he should have written “almost everyone uses pointers-to-pointers”.

    If you’re going to indulge yourself in your favourite activity of irrelevant nit-picking, Robert, at least you could keep up-to-date with my comments.

    I did, in fact, point out that pointers-to-pointers are appropriate at the kernel level, and I think we can both agree that the boot process falls into this category.

    And obviously the concept is hardly alien to the back-end of compilers. (I didn’t mention this. I assume it is obvious.)

    But nobody in their right mind programs consumer-grade software with pointers-to-pointers any longer.

    There. We’re over that particular episode of pointless nit-picking.

    You are now, I assume, going to propound the theory that allowing an exception to escape a destructor is not such a bad thing at all?

    Or that cut’n’paste errors are the Way Of The Future in programming?

    Or that off-by-one errors are perfectly acceptable, as long as the dross, oops, software in question is FLOSS?

    Feel free to do so, Robert. Feel free.

  160. DrLoser wrote, “Nobody these days uses pointers-to-pointers.” when he should have written “almost everyone uses pointers-to-pointers”.

    Ever boot a PC? “When switched on or reset, an x86 processor begins executing the instructions it finds at address FFFF:0000 (at this stage it is operating in Real Mode). In IBM PC compatible processors, this address is mapped to a ROM chip that contains the computer’s Basic Input/Output System (BIOS) code.” It gets worse from there. Pointers are often used to access linked lists. Elements of the list almost certainly use pointers. QED

  161. dougman says:

    “relevant to this discussion”

    Since when do trolls follow this? LOL…. in fact, irrelevant discussion is one of Farters tactics to spread discontent.

  162. oiaohm says:

    oldfart introducing Jack audio does not equal leaving OS X or Windows.

    http://duc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=93414

    Avid Pro Tools users have no problem using Jack Audio Oldfart. They understand does matter if a tool is FOSS or Closed as long as it gets the job done.

    Yes I deal with serous guys who use the serous tools Oldfart none of them laugh off Jack Audio as not an option. None of them take the point of view that closed source is the only way. Ok they would not go pure FOSS but they do a Mix between FOSS and Closed all the time.

    DrLoser
    Minor correction: you do use pointers-to-pointers inside something like the kernel. But this is nothing like the kernel, is it? There is no excuse.
    Really C based object based coding does use pointers to pointers. vtable inside C++ is just a hidden pointers-to-pointers system.

    What happens when _framePos is exactly equal to _segmentSize?
    Never read code you don’t understand. Answers is post a debug message and change nothing. Important in fact old Jack1 does this when a output/input is closing. Yes historic bug compatibility.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JACK_Audio_Connection_Kit

    Yes there is Jack audio 1 and Jack Audio 2. Jack Audio 1 is pure C and has some horible APIs. Jack Audio 2 is C++ and has a compatible support for Jack Audio 1 interfaces. So some programs take the lazy way out and only support Jack1.

    There is a reason for the wrapper to be written in C++ its qDebug that is a QT part so your debugging messages get displayed graphically.

    I don’t suppose anybody here knows what happens when an exception is thrown within a destructor, either.
    The authors of MuseScore evidently do not.

    DrLoser depends on the complier and environment.
    http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BewareOfExceptionsInTheDestructor

    Turns out GCC or LLVM not running in C++11 or better standard mode and on OS X or Linux its fine. Different matter if you do it on Windows. Yes one of the bugs you can expect in a program ported from Linux or OS X to Windows.

    Welcome to the creative world of C++ differences. C++11 was the first to define what happens when you do Exceptions in the destructor up until C++11 it was up to the complier/environment to decide.

  163. DrLoser says:

    I don’t suppose anybody here knows what happens when an exception is thrown within a destructor, either.
    The authors of MuseScore evidently do not.

  164. DrLoser says:

    Minor correction: you do use pointers-to-pointers inside something like the kernel. But this is nothing like the kernel, is it? There is no excuse.

  165. DrLoser says:

    Well I downloaded and spent two hours looking at the musescore code – mostly to try and understand its structure. Even with rusty programming skills, I can see that it is a steaming pile of semi crap that would probably be a “joy” (extreme sarcasm) to attempt to work with.

    Current score (very musical pun, that):
    FLOSS Advocates who have examined the MuseScore code: None.
    Non-FLOSSies: Two.

    I must say, this “Four Freedoms” thing is a lark, isn’t it? (Presumably “ascending,” ho ho.)

    I haven’t put the amount of effort into this that you did, oldfart, and I chose simply to pick a single cpp file. What with the earlier discussion, I thought jackaudio.cpp was a reasonable choice.

    1. It’s not as bad as a lot of FLOSS I’ve seen. Really! It qualifies as “barely adequate!”
    2. There’s no obvious reason why this was written in C++. Quite honestly, it’s just C with wrappers. Perhaps these people just can’t do without the foreach construct?
    3. Nobody these days uses pointers-to-pointers. Is an STL container too much to ask? To be fair, it’s returned by JackAudio (obviously high-quality stuff), but a wrapper would have been nice.
    4. Interesting spattering of qDebug statements. Sometimes they’re controlled by an external flag; sometimes not. And there’s no differentiation at all, so anybody wanting to wade through the logs and diagnose an error is in for oodles of fun.
    5. Without looking much further into this, there seems to be no separation of concerns whatsoever. The number of times a construct such as
    int curTick = audio->seq->score()->repeatList()->utick2tick(audio->seq->getCurTick());
    turns up is frankly alarming. But hey, who needs encapsulation? (See also comment on STL)
    6. There’s the traditional “ToDo” at line 334. “Handle new_pos,” it says. Well, that sounds like a trivial omission to me.

    And all this thing does is to serve as a wrapper around the no doubt equally crappy JackAudio. I shudder to think what the rest of the code is like.

    One final peach to leave you all with:


    if (framePos >= _segmentSize) {
    qDebug("JackAudio::putEvent: time out of range %d(seg=%d)", framePos, _segmentSize);
    if (framePos > _segmentSize)
    framePos = _segmentSize - 1;
    }

    What happens when _framePos is exactly equal to _segmentSize?

    And why is this correction not applied in other such cases?

    I mean, it’s not as if the entire file isn’t loaded with obvious examples of cut’n’paste.

    Thanks, guys. No offense, but I believe I’ll be giving this particular heap of manure a very wide berth.

  166. oldfart says:

    “Do you understand the terms metaphor, analogy and simile?”

    Uh Huh…

    I understand when I smell something else Robert Pogson. DO I ask again, do you consider me a form of drug dealer, yes or no?

  167. oldfart says:

    “All music applications that serious music professionals use run natively under Linux. Just Google “Movies Linux” or “Movie Soundtracks Linux”, etc!”

    Sir you can talk about movies until the cows come home, but that doesnt make them relevant to this discussion. And there are plenty of “serious music professionals” who dont use video processing software. All you are doing with your continued iteration in the face of reality is to make yourself look even more narrow and bigoted than this sites owner.

    If you wish to see some of the tools that serious music professionals use, I suggest that you look at https://www.avid.com

    You will find plenty of very serious professional tools for audio processing, most of which run on Windows and OS X. none of which have much to do with linux

  168. oldfart wrote, “Now what about you calling me a drug dealer, Did I misconstrue that Robert Pogson?”

    Do you understand the terms metaphor, analogy and simile?

    metaphor: The transference of the relation between one set of objects to another set for the purpose of brief explanation

    simile: A word or phrase by which anything is likened, in one or more of its aspects, to something else; a similitude; a poetical or imaginative comparison.

    analogy: A resemblance of relations; an agreement or likeness between things in some circumstances or effects, when the things are otherwise entirely different. Thus, learning enlightens the mind, because it is to the mind what light is to the eye, enabling it to discover things before hidden.

  169. ram says:

    Perhaps “oldfart” didn’t investigate an earlier post, specifically:

    All music applications that serious music professionals use run natively under Linux. Just Google “Movies Linux” or “Movie Soundtracks Linux”, etc!

    No amount of paid advertising, captive magazines, yada yada, can change that.

    P.S. By “serious music professionals” I mean those people composing today (not living off of ancient royalities) making an income to support an upper middle class or higher lifestyle. The vast majority of these people work creating soundtracks for movies, commercials, and theme parks. We do other stuff as well, but those three mostly provide the bulk of reliable steady income.

    P.P.S. Serious music professionals also often work for outfits such as: Universal Studios, Pixar, Weta Digital, and other big production houses. Guess what? They ALL use Linux nearly exclusively.

    P.P.P.S. Or go to shop selling 4K TV’s and look at the demos — almost all produced using Blender under Linux 😀

  170. oldfart says:

    “Let’s ignore FOSS for a second and dig into farting oldman’s argument.”

    No lets not ignore FOSS. The point under discussion is its suitability as a replacement for the commercial software that I use. I have no need of a DAW at this time. I compose directly onto digtial score paper without keyboard and use Finale’s ability to render what has been composed. I may not be the most common user of this capability, but I am by no means unique.

    oh and BTW I believe the products from https://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software are considered the real standard in professional audio software in the DAW space. I do however understand that Pro tools is not cheap/ but then again neither is Logic pro when you throw in the cost of the Apple computer that it runs on.

  171. oldfart says:

    “Number of instruments in use, effects enabled…. All alter how much cpu your audio render will want. 2.7GHz Core I7-4800M with 32G of ram there are over 60 ways I know to configure finale to break that.”

    Perhaps, but none of those ways is going to warrant a change to FOSS programs that are inferior to what I use.

  172. oldfart says:

    “That is the best thing. 🙂 My experience is that kids seem to naturally “get it”, they aren’t as corrupted by these Machiavellian arguments on why strict licensing is necessary. And they also have a natural inquisitiveness that many adults lack.”

    Yes and isnt it a shame when some adults proselytize bullshit to their charges.

  173. oldfart says:

    “[Of course none of this stuff works on Windows!! 🙂 Nobody doing anything interesting in the hard science and technology sectors actually takes Windows seriously, ssssssssh don’t tell our resident trolls.]”

    Too late, I knew about Mesos. Interesting technology, and totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    Nice try though.

  174. oldfart says:

    “In audio there is a reality that particular problems you are forced to use jack audio to get around the problem.”

    Nope. The reality is that you are grasping at straws to win an argument. Being able to use a FOSS tool like JackAudio does not dop a damn thing for me if I have to switch applications for the kind of IMHO inferior crap that Linux offers me.

  175. oldfart says:

    “oldfart misconstruing everything wrote”

    Then you should be more careful in your choice of words.

    Now what about you calling me a drug dealer, Did I misconstrue that Robert Pogson?

  176. oldfart says:

    “Audio is not the only field where there are tools that are only FOSS and to solve particular problems you have no choice but to use the FOSS tool even that it has no commercial support.”

    Perhaps, but I use them on my terms not yours.

  177. oldfart says:

    “Really Oldfart has really never pushed the limits of what finale can do to find out how it breaks when it breaks. If Oldfart had he would have know the system specs he currently has is in fact too small to use it to max.”

    What I can and cannot do with Finale and the associated samplers I run is really beside the point, which is that in the end the few linux solutions available for composing music the way that I choose to do don’t even hold a candle to the commercial solutions.

  178. oldfart misconstruing everything wrote, “you are the one who talked about imposing your solutions on the north. You are the one who forced his own wife to use his solution for IT instead of helping her to continue to use the windows based applications that she was comfortable with.”

    1. By “imposing” I meant that I was the one source of IT-skill in the building and what I did was what got done. I never had the authority to overrule my employers. They just wanted stuff to work. That’s one of several reasons they hired me.
    2. I did not force The Little Woman to use my applications. She was already using FireFox on XP so there was little or no change in using it on GNU/Linux. Also, I gave her a choice of browser with ChromeOS and Opera. She never used any M$-specific feature of word-processing or spreadsheets so there was no need to worry about a migration to OpenOffice.org or LibreOffice. The UI were very similar between those and the old version of M$’s office suite. She never used PS as far as I know. I moved all her files for her. She never lost a one due to the migration. The one M$-specific application she used in business was supplanted by a web-interface anyway so she was not inconvenienced by that.
  179. LinuxGentlesir says:

    “oldfart the IT director”: force the school to blow 90% of their IT budget on a obscure music app he has equity in (50% discount if they promise to allow prayer in school, that theological discount). His argument to the superintendent: we can’t look like cheapskates can we?

  180. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you are a pig as well. As you say you will not take a solution unless it has commercial support. In audio there is a reality that particular problems you are forced to use jack audio to get around the problem.

    Just like FOSS people are forced to use closed source at times to get things done. In fact FOSS users are way more tolerant to it.

    Oldfart with Linux uses commercial supported Redhat. This is all about not having to take responsibility.

    Audio is not the only field where there are tools that are only FOSS and to solve particular problems you have no choice but to use the FOSS tool even that it has no commercial support.

  181. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Robert Pogson, you are the one who talked about imposing your solutions

    That’s what people in decision making roles do.

  182. oldfart says:

    “What a stubborn pig you’ve become, oldfart. You think I went north into the cold in order to mess with children’s education? ”

    In a word: Yes. Remember Robert Pogson, you are the one who talked about imposing your solutions on the north. You are the one who forced his own wife to use his solution for IT instead of helping her to continue to use the windows based applications that she was comfortable with. What other conclusion do you think one is going to come to?

    As far as being a pig, Try being called a drug dealer just because you use and recommend product that happens to require windows as its platform and see how you like it?

  183. oiaohm says:

    Basically Oldfart arguement over audio is basically to the point you don’t need that because I don’t do that yet.

    Really Oldfart has really never pushed the limits of what finale can do to find out how it breaks when it breaks. If Oldfart had he would have know the system specs he currently has is in fact too small to use it to max.

  184. oiaohm says:

    Funny I have not run out of horsepower on my 2.7GHz Core I7-4800MQ based portable with 32Gb of RAM yet. But then again that could have something to do with the reality that I have never felt the need to tweak Garritan ambiance.
    Oldfart as you already admitted you are only doing 2.1 at best. 5.1 is basically over double cpu load and 7.1 is over treble. You said you are consuming 17 percent just doing 2.1. So half your cpu power gone just switching up to 7.1.

    And not tweeking ambiance leaves the setting fairly cpu light. Mess with it that is 8x the cpu load. The reality is your cpu is in fact too small to max out your tool.

    Number of instruments in use, effects enabled…. All alter how much cpu your audio render will want. 2.7GHz Core I7-4800M with 32G of ram there are over 60 ways I know to configure finale to break that.

  185. dougman says:

    According to OLDFARTER, M$ is looking at becoming cheapskates! If one is not paying for software, you are a cheapskate.

    http://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-says-open-source-windows-is-definitely-possible/

    Also, lets not forget all the cheapskate freeloaders that will get Windows 10 for free, what is M$ doing here?

    http://www.pcgamer.com/windows-10-upgrade-free-for-owners-of-windows-7-and-81/

  186. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Mr. Pogson,

    I’m familiar with Mesos. Mesos is a really nice way these days for taking a bunch of computers and essentially turn them into one computer. Besides efficiency allocating resources in a cloud/cluster, it can do things like detect that a computer has lost power and restart (and usually “continue”) all the processes on that failed machine on a different node.

    [Of course none of this stuff works on Windows!! 🙂 Nobody doing anything interesting in the hard science and technology sectors actually takes Windows seriously, ssssssssh don’t tell our resident trolls.]

  187. LinuxGentlesir wrote, “My experience is that kids seem to naturally “get it”, they aren’t as corrupted by these Machiavellian arguments on why strict licensing is necessary. And they also have a natural inquisitiveness that many adults lack”

    Yes. At my last place I had students read GPL and EULA. They can tell when they are being jerked around by M$. Explaining “the tax” and comparing performance of XP and GNU/Linux on brand new machines and our 6 year old machines was the finisher. Many of my students could not afford PCs at home but I showed them that they could take non-working “donations” and make them quite usable with GNU/Linux. PCs are going into the trash by the millions. There’s no reason a youngster should not have a PC running GNU/Linux. The real issues remain, Internet access and money for parts and such. Canada has a nice system whereby business get rid of old machines which are refurbished with TOOS and donated to schools and libraries. Except for them not using GNU/Linux it allows every school to do what I did, increasing the number of seats in schools. Despite oldfart’s assertion that is crap IT it isn’t. It works well.

  188. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Mr. Pogson,

    That’s actually super cool. The whole thin client/multiseat arraignment seems like a fascinating way to save tons of money on a computer lab, and I’m sure if GNU/Linux was more popular we’d see more computer labs run that way, saving tons of money on hardware and power and helping the environment too.

    Further, I was legally able to teach the students how to install and maintain the software both on PCs and servers.

    That is the best thing. 🙂 My experience is that kids seem to naturally “get it”, they aren’t as corrupted by these Machiavellian arguments on why strict licensing is necessary. And they also have a natural inquisitiveness that many adults lack.

  189. LinuxGentlesir wrote, “Does it use a master/slave architecture?”

    It’s been years since the project folded and I haven’t used it lately. My recollection is that from one seat you could run processes as usual and then command them to move to other nodes. I just don’t remember the details but we were able to verify that the processes moved and used CPUtime on the other nodes and such. It was pretty smooth going from lagging Lose ’98 machines to something that could run hundreds of processes flawlessly. I think I had 30 PCs in that first lab. It worked great for CPU-bound stuff but not for I/O. I think disc I/O was bound to the initial machine but I’m not sure of that. If it is still used it may be quite different now. I figured out how to use VirtualBox and now KVM so I’ve not had any need of it for ages.

  190. oldfart, being ignorant but not letting that bother him, wrote, “I have come to the conclusion that Robert Pogson did’nt give a crap about his students. He only cared about wiping out any investment in windows based teaching tools by any means possible in the that the school that hired him.”

    What a stubborn pig you’ve become, oldfart. You think I went north into the cold in order to mess with children’s education? It was a huge sacrifice to leave my family in the south to do what I did and every school where I worked folks who knew what was going on were amazed how much more useful IT was after I arrived. My solutions have been used for many years since I left. The number one issue in education is not some particular application but just the presence of IT. You have to have computers in a lab for whole group activity but also in the classroom for small group activities. I did both and where I had the opportunity I more than doubled the number of seats available to students to use creating, searching, storing and presenting their work. Teachers too were provided powerful tools like databases that they did not have with the standard fare, too few PCs and, often, no server.

    For example, a new school, costing $28million to build had a budget of just $100K for IT when I was hired. I knew that was far too little. It should have been several times as much but there was nothing I could do about the budget so I maximized the amount of hardware available within that budget. We cheated a little in that the phone was also VOIP so the cabling went into another budget but instead of just 100 XP PCs the students got clusters in every classroom, their own area, the library, the home-ec room, the art room, the workshop, and a magnificent computer lab designed with air-conditioning because the usual solution would dump ~4KW into the air. I used thin clients and cut the power consumption five-fold so air-con was not used, saving even more money. Instead of no server they got six, redundant terminal servers and a great file/auth server. Once a couple of faulty parts were located and replaced that system ran flawlessly for years. No crap was involved except the cases for the multiseat machines. Their front doors were very fragile…

    With few exceptions, none of the schools where I worked had any specialized software. Two that did had no end of problems from that software. The one didn’t work despite paying ~$100 per student per annum for it. The students figured out how to cheat… The other didn’t work because the “key” was gone and the supplier would not issue another key so $4K went down the drain. That happened before my time and I did my best to fix that. Two others had expensive library software and had to plead with the maker to make it work on their systems. No, the software I supplied worked well and reliably and did far more than those schools were used to doing. Further, I was legally able to teach the students how to install and maintain the software both on PCs and servers.

  191. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Mr. Pogson,

    That’s super interesting. It looks a similar use case to Apache Mesos. Does it use a master/slave architecture?

  192. LinuxGentlesir wrote, “I’m happy a country as large as India is standing up in support of Free Software so publicly”.

    I’ve been watching India since I discovered the migration of shared memory processes extension of OpenMosix was developed there by a team of Indian ladies many years ago. OpenMosix was a neat little extension of Linux which allowed processes to move amongst networks of computers, turning a school’s computer lab into a crude HPC system. You could boot it from a CD and just do it. Then came virtualization which made that somewhat redundant. I still think OpenMosix is a lighter-weight solution. Less RAM is used for OS overhead. That is, you don’t need a whole OS out on the cluster, just the kernel and GNU stuff. No GUI, for instance, and you can migrate a single process rather than a whole OS.

    Anyway, Indian universities have been cranking out skilled Computer Science types, technicians for more than a decade since and they are ready to fly on their own without M$ at the controls. Their government sees that. Indian entrepreneurs see that. Indian consumers love GNU/Linux and Android/Linux. What do they need with M$ and “partners” taxing their IT?

  193. Future says:

    Let’s ignore FOSS for a second and dig into farting oldman’s argument.

    This Finale thing he keeps pimping costs $600 (it has a ‘theological’ discount though, wtf?). It doesn’t include free upgrades either. The software looks like it has a very dated UI, and it doesn’t seem to have many of the capabilities of dedicated DAWs – it’s more focused on a specialized task of music notation.

    Logic Pro a far more complicated and full featured DAW is $199. That’s more in line with what proprietary music creation software tends to cost. It also has support for music notation, but so much more. If you were arguing about Logic Pro maybe you’d have a little more merit here. Logic Pro is an actual respected piece of software in the music business.

    I don’t think anyone is cheap for not buying software with limited capability that costs more by itself then a fairly decent laptop. Basically farting oldman is a sucker, and he is justifying his idiotic purchases by insulting other people who rather use their money more intelligently. Or he works for the company that makes Finale. I’m not sure.

  194. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart,

    Its windows support is a joke (the cygwin libraries it appears) .

    Correction: Windows IS the joke!

  195. oldfart says:

    “Weirdly, that better IT might very well be Chromebooks.”

    Hmmm. I would need to consider that one. My basic issue with Google is their management tools for managing masses of chromebooks kind’a stink. But then again at lease Google has some idea of managing a product, so who knows.

  196. oldfart says:

    correction

    “Somehow Personal sovereignty is NOT what I would say would come of diving into this piece of FOSS.”

  197. oldfart says:

    “Because I have had enough of your whining defensive useless mathematically inept attempts to defend yourself. You think you’re right? Fine. I can live with that.”

    Never try to teach a pig to sing,
    it wastes time and annoys the pig!

    Did you really think your would get any other result?

  198. oldfart says:

    “This one-size-must-fit-all is a proprietary software ideal as their creators only talk about “consumers” as a people, not as individuals. No personal sovereignty!”

    So personal sovereignty is what I get if I give up the commercial music software that I compose and replace it with FOSS like MusScore.

    Well I downloaded and spent two hours looking at the musscore code – mostly to try and understand its structure. Even with rusty programming skills, I can see that it is a steaming pile of semi crap that would probably be a “joy” (extreme sarcasm) to attempt to work with. Its windows support is a joke (the cygwin libraries it appears) .

    Somehow Personal sovereignty is what I would say would come of diving into this piece of FOSS.

    And thats only one of the programs I would get to deal with…

    I’ll take windows any day. I have the personal sovereignty of knowing when I get a musical idea for a composition that I am working on, I can start up finale, enter the idea in music notation, press a button and listen to the results.

    And i didn’t have stop composing and play code slave to get it working when it fails.

  199. LinuxGentlesir says:

    GNU/Linux can ever run software for other operating systems! One of the most wonderful things when I first switched to GNU/Linux was seeing how I could run my old Windows apps alongside these new unfamiliar apps. It was so amazing, so wonderful, I spent the entire night up just exploring GNU/Linux!

  200. LinuxGentlesir says:

    You can actually run Android as a desktop if you want to!! GNU/Linux has many choices, there is no such thing as “the desktop”!! Android is one option of many! This one-size-must-fit-all is a proprietary software ideal as their creators only talk about “consumers” as a people, not as individuals. No personal sovereignty!

  201. oldfart says:

    “Oddly appropriate in the current circumstances, Queefer.”

    Thank you doctor. Are you really sure that this is one of Adam King’s sock puppets?

  202. oldfart says:

    “Obviously that’s not so or Android/Linux would not exist. ”

    Irrelevant. What is relevant is that Android is a far more polished piece of commercial software from a single vendor that is supported by both that vendor and that vendors ISV’s that actually get the job that it was designed for a mobile OS for phones and Tablets done quite well.

    It is also not the linux desktop that you are hawking nor will it ever BE the clusterf–ked mess that is the linux desktop.

    I suggest that you stop using Android as proof of the success of the linux deskop – it is nothing of the sort.

  203. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser, being mathematically challenged, wrote, “You are making that accusation up out of thin air”.

    Robert Pogson, being somebody who is constitutionally unable to admit that he made a verbal faux pas, wrote, “… the “positive feedback” M$ claimed was theirs alone.

    I’m not quite sure how you personally define “theirs alone,” Robert, but I don’t think that quibbling about any percentage much under 99.999% is going to hack it.

    You lose on this one. You have been exposed as a fraud. Get over it.

    This particular sub-topic will now be closed for further discussion, after, of course, you have exercised your right as the site owner to respond.

    Because I have had enough of your whining defensive useless mathematically inept attempts to defend yourself. You think you’re right? Fine. I can live with that.

  204. LinuxGentlesir says:

    I think that’s either old news or the folks who matter are just getting the message. India has been on a pro-FLOSS course for years but they’ve just had a big election and the new crew may have had to chew on it again. There’s just no downside to FLOSS for India and plenty of upside. They have lots of talented people who can supply any applications for GNU/Linux so M$ need not apply. They have a huge population and can support their own IT industry from top to bottom. Establishing a pro-FLOSS policy just makes great economic sense and will help bridge the Digital DIvide which is huge in India.

    I’m happy a country as large as India is standing up in support of Free Software so publicly though! Over time it seems we are seeing more and more organizations making a stand. So I have a positive outlook for the future.


    I wish Canada and USA would take such a positive step. Too many partners of M$ lobbying, I’m afraid. I think Canada should just ban M$ as a criminal gang and force migration…

    We’ve watched Microsoft slip behind Google, Apple, IBM as net worth is concerned.
    Any country that cares about its citizens will give Microsoft the boot at some point. In the not too distant future, we’ll read about Windows in the history books. It has no future! Even in the USA! Microsoft might survive for awhile as a GNU/Linux cloud provider, but they are nothing special there either.

  205. DrLoser says:

    Hopefully those schools that were left with his solutions in place have since acquired better hardware and real IT and have put Robert Pogsons collectio of crap back in the garbage from whence it came.

    Weirdly, that better IT might very well be Chromebooks.

    All that expert CLI admin crap gone to waste!

  206. DrLoser, being mathematically challenged, wrote, “You are making that accusation up out of thin air”.

    90% excludes 10% from aspiring to greater things, eh? Do you believe the “natural order” of things is that “the leader” takes 90% share of anything? In what market is that happening except in IT where the Wintel monopoly coerced the world to eat its pablum?

  207. DrLoser says:

    … the “positive feedback” M$ claimed was theirs alone.

    Just be honest, Robert.

    That never happened.

    Did it?

  208. oldfart says:

    “Not the teachers, dummy. The school children.”

    I have come to the conclusion that Robert Pogson did’nt give a crap about his students. He only cared about wiping out any investment in windows based teaching tools by any means possible in the that the school that hired him. The fact that many of these schools had IT that was ill maintained and underfunded was just grist for Robert Pogson’s mill. It must have been hard for a harried administrator in the Far North to resist the siren song of a system that actually seemed to make use of the junk that the administrator had to deal with, especially if that administrator didn’t give a crap himself about IT or(unfortunately) the students for that matter!

    And so Robert Pogson proceeded unopposed through the schools of the far north spreading the gospel of Linux…

    OF course we will never know about the cases where there was enough support for local IT based on win-tel or mac-tel based platforms where Mr. Pogson was told thanks but no thanks, and had to tough it out using the ebil Microsoft solutions that he loathed.

    Fortunately the savior of manitoba is safely retired now and can IMHO do no more damage. Hopefully those schools that were left with his solutions in place have since acquired better hardware and real IT and have put Robert Pogsons collectio of crap back in the garbage from whence it came.

  209. LinuxGentlesir wrote, “Government of India adjusts acquisition policy to prefer FOSS in all future software decisions”

    I think that’s either old news or the folks who matter are just getting the message. India has been on a pro-FLOSS course for years but they’ve just had a big election and the new crew may have had to chew on it again. There’s just no downside to FLOSS for India and plenty of upside. They have lots of talented people who can supply any applications for GNU/Linux so M$ need not apply. They have a huge population and can support their own IT industry from top to bottom. Establishing a pro-FLOSS policy just makes great economic sense and will help bridge the Digital DIvide which is huge in India.

    I wish Canada and USA would take such a positive step. Too many partners of M$ lobbying, I’m afraid. I think Canada should just ban M$ as a criminal gang and force migration…

  210. DrLoser says:

    Makes sense. Your defence of closed software does come off as a bit fascist!

    No, that would be Benito Mussolini’s

    I am making superhuman efforts to educate this people. When they have learnt to obey, they will believe what I tell them.

    Oddly appropriate in the current circumstances, Queefer.

  211. LinuxGentlesir says:

    But it’s even in space. ISS’s systems is 100% Linux based:
    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155392-international-space-station-switches-from-windows-to-linux-for-improved-reliability

    GNU/Linux is also unlocking the secrets underpinning reality itself: http://linux.web.cern.ch/linux/

    Operating in openness, subject to peer review and improvement – elements shared by FOSS and science both. It is no wonder that wherever something amazing is being discovered, GNU/Linux is not far away.

  212. DrLoser says:

    Robert Pogson says:

    April 3, 2015 at 12:42 pm

    DrLoser, having trouble reading, wrote, “ever once claimed the distinction that you imputed to them”.

    In TFA written by an executive of M$, “The historical situation is that the market share leader in systems software takes about 90% or so of the market. the runner up takes about 90% of what is left and so on.

    I’m slightly bored by hearing that bit of ancient history repeated, Robert, although I concede that it is meat and potatoes to your peanut gallery.

    However.

    I repeat.

    There is no imputation of exclusivity whatsoever.

    Ex*clu”sive (?) a. [Cf. F. exclusif.]

    1. Having the power of preventing entrance; debarring from participation or enjoyment; possessed and enjoyed to the exclusion of others; as, exclusive bars; exclusive privilege; exclusive circles of society.

    You are making that accusation up out of thin air, Mr Pogson. Nobody at Microsoft has ever said such a thing. Nathan Myrhvold certainly didn’t imply it in your quote.

    Stop doing that. Quote people accurately, for once.

  213. oldfart wrote, “many people use one or more applications that your wonderful sainted piece of broken crap of a desktop doesn’t support or doesn’t have!”

    Obviously that’s not so or Android/Linux would not exist. There were few if any applications for TOOS available on Day One yet Android/Linux flourished. It created its own ecosystem. GNU/Linux has its own as well. Folks who have done migrations find 80% of users or more are able to do their jobs with GNU/Linux. Folks may even be more productive with GNU/Linux because of less downtime, malware, sluggishness and re-re-reboots.

  214. LinuxGentlesir says:

    oldfart said:
    Eines Volk!, Eines Reich!

    Makes sense. Your defence of closed software does come off as a bit fascist!

  215. oldfart says:

    “But the future is open, democratic, and free, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness!”

    Eines Volk!, Eines Reich!

  216. oldfart says:

    “GNU/Linux is not cyanide. People resist change naturally. It takes effort. Once the effort is made there is much less incentive to change again to some other OS”

    The only problem with your little authoritarian fantasy is that many people use one or more applications that your wonderful sainted piece of broken crap of a desktop doesn’t support or doesn’t have! And I am sure when quite a few of those people will resent it when some “expert” that they come for for help wants them to throw out everything they have instead of helping them fix it.

    Then again, you have demonstrated quite well recently that you actually have no clue on how to fix anything windows related (You never owned a version of windows past the now 25 year old windows 3.x did you), and you have been more than unprofessional in your attitude towards the provisioning of IT to those that need it on their terms, not yours.

    “You think I could force The Little Woman to use GNU/Linux? No way. She uses it because that other OS was always breaking down. She got tired of needing to have it “fixed”. She could afford to go shopping and buy any PC offered on the planet but she doesn’t because GNU/Linux works for her. I did have to force her to try it. That was easy because her OS quite for the umpteenth time and GNU/Linux came to the rescue”

    Nooo Robert Pogson didn’t force his wife to change working environments. He just provided his usual non support for things windows – leaving her with one unsolved problem after another until she got so frustrated that she didn’t put up a fuss when you finally forced her to use it anyway. And, yes I can believe that it “worked” as well. Actually what worked was that she now had a system with software that her bigot of a husband actually knew how to “support”…

    All I can say is, that your wife must love you very much, Robert Pogson.

  217. LinuxGentlesir says:

    GNU/Linux is perfect for students! In this touch economy, GNU/Linux skills can land you a high paying job very easily!

    http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/blogs/browse/2015/03/linux-growth-results-high-demand-linux-talent-fourth-year-row

    School children needs to learn how the technology they use works, and GNU/Linux allows them to examine the very source code the system is built under! No other OS makes any sense in the context of education!

  218. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Recent good news Mr. Pogson!

    Government of India adjusts acquisition policy to prefer FOSS in all future software decisions:
    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-25/news/60475368_1_software-source-source-codes-new-policy

  219. DrLoser, having trouble reading, wrote, “ever once claimed the distinction that you imputed to them”.

    In TFA written by an executive of M$, “The historical situation is that the market share leader in systems software takes about 90% or so of the market. the runner up takes about 90% of what is left and so on. This maps reasonably well to the current world wide market share figures – MS Dos based computers have about 91 %, Apple Macintosh computers which run the Macintosh 08 have about 8% and the largest variant of UNIX has less than 1% [GET PUBLISHED FIGURES]. Applications software usually gets a somewhat smaller benefit from positive feedback than systems software because the effects which drive the feedback are less central to how someone uses the application. As a result the typical figures are something like 60% to 70% share for the leader, 60% to 70% of the remainder for the runner up and so forth.”

    You do realize that at the time, M$’s OS was DOS-based, right? So, he’s writing that the leader, which would have been M$ at the time, was due 90% and others get the leftovers.

  220. DrLoser says:

    I’ve found that the vast majority of people who are introduced to GNU/Linux find it quite usable. e.g. In my whole career installing GNU/Linux on hundreds of PCs in schools, only two teachers asked for that other OS back, one wanted to play some DRMed DVDs and another just wanted to, so there…

    “Nyah nyah nyah so there?” Whilst we are dealing in the language of the school playground, Robert, perhaps we should consider the real consumers of the IT you bodged together.

    Not the teachers, dummy. The school children.

    I’m sure you have kept up with a substantial proportion of the two hundred or so children you “imposed Linux upon,” to use your rather unfortunate and yet all-too-exact phraseology.

    Give us a hint, Robert. How many are still using a Linux desktop?

    1.75%? A tad higher?

  221. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Mr. Pogson,

    Of course it is. GNU/Linux is the most technologically advanced operating system in the world. This is something everyone agrees on, even if they will not admit it.

    The forces opposed to progress have given up throwing FUD against GNU/Linux on mobile, supercomputers, clouds, servers, smart TVs, and IoT devices, virtually all levels of computing – all areas where GNU/Linux is the clear winner. We’ve won all these frontiers. The desktop is the last [shrinking] frontier, and the forces of central control are trying to hold on to it with all their might. But the future is open, democratic, and free, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness!

  222. oldfart says:

    “A progressive loss of technological sovereignty!”

    Now do you figure this sir?

  223. DrLoser says:

    And what exactly would those “implications” be?

    Well, to be fair here, you have to pay to eat at McDonalds. And you are implicitly using your own hard-earned cash to provide a (regrettably very low) living wage to the “McDonalds food programmers.”

    Neither of which applies with FLOSS.

    But some implications are apparently more important than other implications, given a certain mind-set. Mostly based on inherent miserliness and a sense of entitlement and obviously a weirdo insistence that everybody else should do the same thing, with no possibility of consumer choice.

    Nevertheless, an obvious (if clearly indefensible) set of “implications.”

  224. oldfart wrote, “the rest of those who have that linux desktop forced on them will get off it as soon as they can and probably become the most vocal detractors of linux in any way shape or form.”

    GNU/Linux is not cyanide. People resist change naturally. It takes effort. Once the effort is made there is much less incentive to change again to some other OS. I’ve found that the vast majority of people who are introduced to GNU/Linux find it quite usable. e.g. In my whole career installing GNU/Linux on hundreds of PCs in schools, only two teachers asked for that other OS back, one wanted to play some DRMed DVDs and another just wanted to, so there… As far as I recall no student every refused to use GNU/Linux and many preferred it where the choice was offered. You see, I’ve offered GNU/Linux and that other OS on identical hardware several times and that other OS became lonely and neglected. Users just wouldn’t put up with that “wait…please wait” nonsense and loved to get on with the job. You think I could force The Little Woman to use GNU/Linux? No way. She uses it because that other OS was always breaking down. She got tired of needing to have it “fixed”. She could afford to go shopping and buy any PC offered on the planet but she doesn’t because GNU/Linux works for her. I did have to force her to try it. That was easy because her OS quite for the umpteenth time and GNU/Linux came to the rescue.

  225. LinuxGentlesir says:

    And what exactly would those “implications” be?

    A progressive loss of technological sovereignty!

  226. DrLoser says:

    … the “positive feedback” M$ claimed was theirs alone.

    And which part of Nathan Myhrvold’s quote (that’s his full name. He’s not a defendant in a child molestation case) supports your fatuous insistence that Microsoft, even in what is clearly an Opinion Piece, have ever once claimed the distinction that you imputed to them, and that I have just highlighted, Robert?

    No part whatsoever. That’s what.

    Stop misrepresenting anybody who disagrees with you. Join the rest of the civilised world.

    Right now, if you don’t mind.

  227. DrLoser wrote, ” the “positive feedback” M$ claimed was theirs alone.
    Microsoft have never once claimed that. Do stop trying to put words into other people’s mouths.”

    Nathan M: “The computer industry as we know it today is full of examples of positive feedback. The value of a computer to its user depends on the quality and variety of the application software available for it. The incentive to create such software for a particular computer depends on the number of users. since they are the potential customers for the application developer. This creates a similar situation to the video store – the best software is attracted to the most popular platform. making it more popular till.”

  228. oldfart says:

    “Windows is in many ways the McDonalds of operating systems. People who “just want to eat” and don’t think about the implications of what they are doing.”

    And what exactly would those “implications” be?

  229. oldfart says:

    “A good fraction of those who try it or have it forced on them or whatever…”

    Forced on them…?

    And the rest of those who have that linux desktop forced on them will get off it as soon as they can and probably become the most vocal detractors of linux in any way shape or form.

    You never cease to amaze me Robert Pogson. I thought that you were just an extreme cheapskate who was doing everything that he could to propagant his software gravy train. Now I see that you are a not only bully, but a fool as well

  230. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Windows is in many ways the McDonalds of operating systems. People who “just want to eat” and don’t think about the implications of what they are doing.

  231. DrLoser says:

    A good fraction of those who try it or have it forced on them or whatever will continue to use GNU/Linux at work/home/the bus and usage will continue to grow, the “positive feedback” M$ claimed was theirs alone.

    Microsoft have never once claimed that. Do stop trying to put words into other people’s mouths.

    You’re in grave danger of turning into a slightly better educated and more intelligent form of Fifi, you know, Robert.

  232. DrLoser says:

    Eloquent, impassioned, and completely free of any evidence whatsoever, Robert. I notice you bring up this “I believe!” nonsense every time somebody questions a particular direct set of statistics that you are currently espousing.

    Stop it. Just defend the statistics in question. Assuming there is a defence.

    If 1500 desktops are operating out there and GNU/Linux has ~2% of them, that’s 30million desktops and probably double that in users.

    There may well be 1.5 billion desktops out there, Robert. (Always good to get our magnitudes in order.) Seems a little high, but why not? It’s close enough.

    Perhaps there are three billion desktop users out there, assuming your metric of two users to each desktop. A rather strange assumption, but if you’re going to make it, then there’s no reason to deny that it applies to non-Linux desktops, is there?

    But, so what? I will happily concede the pleasures of the Linux desktop to every last Sainted Person in that 30 million of yours. Why not? It’s their Free Choice.

    The other 1,470,000,000 of us are also quite happy not using some ancient broken down worthless piece of crap. Allow us our little foibles on that account, please.

  233. DrLoser wrote, “Robert’s thesis is that the Linux desktop is a superior replacement for the Windows desktop, in the eyes of consumers world-wide. Nothing here proves that thesis.”

    That’s part of my thesis. I also believe that Wintel for many years conspired to deny consumers access to GNU/Linux and other software. Whether or not consumers believe GNU/Linux is superior in any way, they should have the choice which has been denied to them illegally.

    That GNU/Linux is growing rapidly in use on the desktop is certainly supported by these data and that’s consistent with consumers finally having a choice. That change in the market happened slowly but the adoption of the product is moving right along. We saw that with Android/Linux and there’s no reason to believe wide and deep adoption will not happen with GNU/Linux on the desktop. If 1500 million desktops are operating out there and GNU/Linux has ~2% of them, that’s 30million desktops and probably double that in users. That’s according to the same webstats trolls used to belittle GNU/Linux years ago. Suddenly they’re not relevant? [SARCASM] I think the webstats understate GNU/Linux for many reasons but this is just the tip of the iceberg upon which Wintel will wreck. Have you not noticed that all the things holding back Wintel on the desktop: the economy, war, pestilence, etc. don’t seem to be holding back GNU/Linux? Why is that? It’s because it is a superior OS according to the market. In the past two years folks got to see and feel that Android/Linux worked for them so the Wintel emperor has no clothes and folks are willing to try GNU/Linux. A good fraction of those who try it or have it forced on them or whatever will continue to use GNU/Linux at work/home/the bus and usage will continue to grow, the “positive feedback” M$ claimed was theirs alone.

  234. DrLoser says:

    I note that Behringer’s new digital mixers and control surfaces ALL have Linux drivers and a relatively open API. With over a quarter of a million of them being used presently by audio professionals, that is a good start.

    Hey, HPCs use Linux. Mixing desks use Linux. Traffic lights use Linux.

    So what?

    Robert’s thesis is that the Linux desktop is a superior replacement for the Windows desktop, in the eyes of consumers world-wide. Nothing here proves that thesis.

    oiaohm’s thesis, insofar as it can be pieced together from random cites strung together by questionable assertions, is that an amateur or even semi-pro musician/composer has no choice but to use Linux applications. Which has been proved to be absurd.

    If I want to transcribe the four-part ditties that I occasionally whistle (one part whistle, three parts harmonising in my head), then I’m going to buy a professional application like Finale, for $600. And I’m going to run it on a supported platform, like Windows or OSX.

    And I’m going to use a relatively modern piece of hardware, rather than something I’ve dumpster-dived. Apparently Finale works without coming anywhere near maximising a modern (2010+) machine. What a surprise.

    And any professional teacher, educator, or composer will do the same. Such as my Cello-playing chum Livia down the road a couple of miles, who incidentally has written several books on learning the Cello.

    Game over, chaps. Find something else to whine about.

  235. ram says:

    “High quality = high CPU usage.”

    Fortunately, with around 3000 cores in my Linux cluster, I never come close to using that up on audio, on video rendering sometimes, on audio never yet.

    I note that Behringer’s new digital mixers and control surfaces ALL have Linux drivers and a relatively open API. With over a quarter of a million of them being used presently by audio professionals, that is a good start 😉 Those numbers are expected to substantially increase as Behringer announces revised more capable devices and even lower prices. The Penguin shows up prominently on Behringer’s new marketing materials. Bwahahaha 😀

  236. Future says:

    I will not even consider using linux as a desktop

    That’s nice, but why are you even here? Clearly this is a blog about GNU/Linux.

  237. oldfart says:

    “High quality = high CPU usage. If there is too much CPU demand on your machine, try turning down the quality. You can make fun effects if you set it very low (try it).”

    A quick check of my system shown cpu utilization of finale at 14% and 734Mb of memory.

    You see sir, I don’t work with dumpster dived systems like you apparently do.

  238. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart its a case you have not read the manual carefully or accepted that when you hit these problems that there was no way around it. Of course being a stuck to use closed source/supported only you don’t have work around to these issues.”

    Funny I have not run out of horsepower on my 2.7GHz Core I7-4800MQ based portable with 32Gb of RAM yet. But then again that could have something to do with the reality that I have never felt the need to tweak Garritan ambiance.

    Care to try again?

  239. oldfart says:

    “avid media composer runs into the same problems with connections on Windows as blender does when doing movie effects.”

    And we are again talking about video, which I am not discussing because it is not relevant.

    But I would love to read your cites abut those audio only rendering farms that can only run on linux that I am just GOING to have to use!

    So where is the cite sir?

  240. DrLoser says:

    Garritan Instant Orchestra is a must-have library that offers an easy way to make super-quick orchestrations in minutes–from start to finish. This sample-based collection contains useful, pre-packaged orchestral instrument combinations and effects: bombastic brass, ultra-lush strings, low-octave rumblings, spooky wind textures, mega-hits, wild overlays, silvery choruses, spacey pianos, light glissy harps, a cathedral orchestra, delicate ensembles, ethereal textures, chaotic whirls, rises, glissandi, chord clusters, and much more. Instant Orchestra is an extremely inspiring orchestral tool for achieving the larger-than-life orchestral sounds associated with film, games, TV scoring, and music productions.

    Have you any idea how thoroughly disgusting the result of that is going to sound to a trained ear, Fifi?

    Of course not.

    You’re a tone-deaf half-trained chimp.

  241. DrLoser says:

    Personally I thought that a contemplation of Kantian Categorical Imperatives and ἀρετή would somehow re-light the fires of profound intellectual ignorance around here. Evidently I was wrong.

    Can oiaohm get any more boring? I’m minded to visit Dudley Zoo, up the road.

    The chimps are equally badly trained, but I seem to remember being entranced by the prairie dogs as a kid.

  242. oiaohm says:

    avid media composer runs into the same problems with connections on Windows as blender does when doing movie effects. The management computer just cannot be Windows. As you said blenders not related the problem with blender also applies to avid media composer and jack audio…. Anything allowing cluster spreading of any of the workloads. The management computer of a cluster windows desktop is not liked. Windows as slave machines is fine after a few tweeks.

    https://www.finalemusic.com/UserManuals/Finale2014Win/Content/Finale/Garritan_Ambience_dialog_box.htm
    The thing is the problem in the manual.
    High quality = high CPU usage. If there is too much CPU demand on your machine, try turning down the quality. You can make fun effects if you set it very low (try it).
    There are warnings like this all over the manual with Finale with no advice how to work around it same with many other closed source solutions. Yes you want High quality and you are CPU short. Jackaudio is the way out to allow you to join more machines so giving you more cpu power to play with.

    Oldfart its a case you have not read the manual carefully or accepted that when you hit these problems that there was no way around it. Of course being a stuck to use closed source/supported only you don’t have work around to these issues. Yes using jack audio Garritan instances can be in fact on multi Windows or OS X machines and even some Linux. Of course you controller you will want OS X or Linux.

    Basically jack audio removes you need to turn quality level back as long as you can get your hands on enough computers to provide enough cpu power.

    Really do really need to give real experiences when the vendors class it such a problem it has to be written in the manuals.

  243. oldfart says:

    correction again:

    I will not even consider using linux as a desktop because the applications that compose with are NOT OFFICIALLY supported by their vendors on a linux platform.

  244. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart where is the words not supported on Linux but runs.”

    And other than you and others committed to using FOSS no matter what, the lack of official vendor support doesn’t matter.

    To me it does.

  245. oldfart says:

    “Sorry that is not exactly irrelevant either you have your facts straight or you don’t ”

    SInce it is obvious that we are down to nit picking and esoterica on you behalf, let me make it easy to you.

    I will not even consider using linux as a desktop because the applications that compose with are directly supported by their vendors on a linux platform.

    Does this work better for you.

  246. oldfart says:

    “Also people run into same issues with windows when blender render farming and the like. The limited number of network connections of windows comes a problem when you are attempting todo anything big.”

    Blender is video and irrelevant to this conversation.

  247. oldfart says:

    “oldfart finale has the midi…(bla bla bla)….5.1 and 7.1 side can get you.

    It occurs to me that before we continue this conversation, I need to know what practical experience you have that indicates this “roadblock” I might run into?

    Some current cites of real experiences will do.

  248. oiaohm says:

    oldfart finale has the midi out so you can take its output to jack and spread the processing between machines if you need it. But windows will become a problem. Basically you are doing work lacking complexity to cause you to run out of CPU power in a single machine. 5.1 and 7.1 side can get you.

    Also people run into same issues with windows when blender render farming and the like. The limited number of network connections of windows comes a problem when you are attempting todo anything big.

    Oldfart you will find that you cannot stay pure closed source either. avid media composer does not allow you to spread an audio processing job. Basically there is a keystone todo a particular thing and its only FOSS.

    No doubt, but this is irrelevant to this discussion.
    8:8:8.4 is one of the tested limits of jack audio for real-time. So jack audio is tested past our current needs. Yes the blender demo is a jack audio torture test.

    Which is, whether you like it or not, on windows and OS X, not linux!
    Oldfart where is the words not supported on Linux but runs. Sorry its not what you are saying over and over again.

    Neither is yours. I said that Linux is does not SUPPORT the applications that I use. the fact that somebody has gotten a particular version or even versions to “run” under certain conditions is irrelevant.

    Sorry that is not exactly irrelevant either you have your facts straight or you don’t Oldfart. Saying not vendor supported is correct saying not on Linux is incorrect. Why some program vendors do support running on Linux under selected version numbers of Wine and still only release Windows binary.

  249. oldfart says:

    correction

    Vendor support is not there, therefore the application is NOT supported.

  250. oldfart says:

    “Mind you 5.1 on dvd is simplish. Blueray is 7.1 That adds another lot of CPU load if you are attempt to produce it properly.”

    And if I need it I will make the investment – in non linux based comemrcial tools.

    “The most evil surround sound was a Blender demo. Yes this hurts computers.
    8 top speakers, 8 middle speakers, 8 bottom speakers and 4 sub woofers. Hard bit is having the hardware to run it set-up properly.”

    No doubt, but this is irrelevant to this discussion.

  251. oldfart says:

    “oldfart basically your arguement that finale does not work on Linux is basically because you don’t. Not because others don’t. Yes arguement not based in fact again Oldfart.”

    Neither is yours. I said that Linux is does not SUPPORT the applications that I use. the fact that somebody has gotten a particular version or even versions to “run” under certain conditions is irrelevant.

    Vendor support is not there, therefore the application is supported.

  252. oiaohm says:

    Mind you 5.1 on dvd is simplish. Blueray is 7.1 That adds another lot of CPU load if you are attempt to produce it properly.

    The most evil surround sound was a Blender demo. Yes this hurts computers.
    8 top speakers, 8 middle speakers, 8 bottom speakers and 4 sub woofers. Hard bit is having the hardware to run it set-up properly.

  253. oldfart says:

    “Professional musicians working for movie industry need it. Professional and amateurs attempting to make more money from people who want surround sound need it. Basically doing only 2 channel cuts yourself out of particular markets Oldfart.”

    For the time being there is no video component to my music, if there is Finale has it covered at lease for initial workflow, for 5.1 and 7.1 I had looked at a commercial tool like avid media composer with associated hardware. That is is where I will head…

    Not to Linux, and certainly not to pure FOSS.

  254. oiaohm says:

    oldfart basically your arguement that finale does not work on Linux is basically because you don’t. Not because others don’t. Yes arguement not based in fact again Oldfart.

  255. oiaohm says:

    oldfart yet it does not change the fact that since the year 2000 many users of Wine on Linux have had finale working. Basically your not Linux is ignoring that fact.

  256. oldfart says:

    “In fact this is the same for all MakeMusic products with registration. As I say they are a cool company in a lot of regards.”

    Yes they are, and that is why I have continued to use and upgrade their product for 25+ years. IMHO it was and is money well spent and it works where it is supported…

    Which is, whether you like it or not, on windows and OS X, not linux!

  257. oiaohm says:

    So most of your attempt to play a linux card is irrelevant to me, and I suspect to most professional and amateur musicians as well.
    Oldfart I mentioned what it for. http://dts-music.net/

    DVD and Blueray movies and other things are in 5.1. Selling higher price recording for the home market also requires making 5.1 version.

    Yes DVD audio discs 5.1 recording.

    So most of your attempt to play a linux card is irrelevant to me, and I suspect to most professional and amateur musicians as well.
    No this is I don’t do this so no one else needs to. Oldfart you complian when Robert does this you cannot have it both ways.

    Professional musicians working for movie industry need it. Professional and amateurs attempting to make more money from people who want surround sound need it. Basically doing only 2 channel cuts yourself out of particular markets Oldfart.

  258. DrLoser says:

    Basically it something to remember lost a laptop with finale on it contacted them and informed them that it was lost and got new information to setup another machine and then laptop gets recovered. The recovered may not be updating any more and maybe acting up a little because the MakeMusic server is reject it. Of course fixed by putting the current registration information in by deauthorize and redoing authorisation. So simple straight forwards fix of course someone without proper registration will be a little confused by the odd things the program is doing. How I know this is running people finale under wine with a particular function broken.

    Ignorant fantasising gibberish.

  259. DrLoser says:

    So then in your expert opinion as an person with 8+ years of experience in observing the hamster in his habitat,

    does what you have seem makes him more of an amateur chimp?

    An interesting, if unlikely, cross-breed, oldfart

    Somewhere, under the Southern Cross, there is a lamp-post lowering over a trained cross-breed male mammal, trapped in a gigantic Hamster Wheel whilst unsuitably attired in a red leather miniskirt and Louboutins, beckoning on the sparse passers-by.

    “Come buy my slowly parboiled frogs! Delices von der Achtzehnhunderts hier ist für den Kauf! Kommen Sie, kommen Sie alles!
    “Can I interest you in a knock-off audio-mixer, Guv? Only fifty cents. It would be free, but my pet Candiru needs to buy some … lubricant. Don’t ask why.
    “Oh, that commercial stuff? It ain’t worth “Jack,” mate.”

    Well, maybe not expert as such. But more informed than most people around here are about Nitwit vs VMware, amongst several other things.

  260. oiaohm says:

    oldfart there is a key value for updates with finale. Change either user registration number or serial number or Authorisation code change key value.

    Basically it something to remember lost a laptop with finale on it contacted them and informed them that it was lost and got new information to setup another machine and then laptop gets recovered. The recovered may not be updating any more and maybe acting up a little because the MakeMusic server is reject it. Of course fixed by putting the current registration information in by deauthorize and redoing authorisation. So simple straight forwards fix of course someone without proper registration will be a little confused by the odd things the program is doing. How I know this is running people finale under wine with a particular function broken.

    In fact this is the same for all MakeMusic products with registration. As I say they are a cool company in a lot of regards.

  261. oldfart says:

    “I despair of you, oldfart, I really do. You’ll misrepresent anybody, won’t you?”

    I assure you it was not my intention to misrepresent someone who represents himself so assuredly for all to see.

    So then in your expert opinion as an person with 8+ years of experience in observing the hamster in his habitat,

    does what you have seem makes him more of an amateur chimp?

  262. DrLoser says:

    Turns out to be very hard todo synced generation of audio across multi machines.

    CRAP.

  263. DrLoser says:

    I bow to oiaohms ability to be a professional chimp…

    I despair of you, oldfart, I really do. You’ll misrepresent anybody, won’t you?

    I didn’t say that oiaohm has the ability to be a professional chimp. I merely remarked that the man has clearly put a lot of effort into his training.

    “Ability,” as Malcolm Gladwell has pointed out (and this is something to send the heart of every FLOSS proponent out there soaring!) is a learned thing.

    Admittedly, it appears to take ten thousand hours of practice on average, but I think we can all agree that, in the case of oiaohm, that was ten thousand hours that could not possibly have been spent in a more productive way.

  264. oldfart says:

    “Audio is not a place to go and play the closed source only card. Why its not workable.”

    I am not playing a card sir. I have the ability to score for a full symphony orchestra of up to 128 channels across up to 8 modules/software synths and place the generated result in a realistic sounding concert hall before recording to 16/44 wav. Assuming the time comes that I will need to go beyond this, I will be easy to acquire what I need to master at 24/192 by throwing money at it. The music I write does not need multiple machine synchronization and more than 2 channels.

    So most of your attempt to play a linux card is irrelevant to me, and I suspect to most professional and amateur musicians as well.

  265. oldfart says:

    “I feel it is important to encourage mutual respect around here.”

    You are absolutely correct doctor.

    I bow to oiaohms ability to be a professional chimp…

  266. oldfart says:

    “The company behind Finale is cool they are not going to be any major trouble as long as you can prove ownership. Mind you they will most likely void your old keys and give you new ones in case of physically lost device.”

    Are you sure about that key thing?

  267. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser go back 10 years and there was 3 commercial solutions vs jackaudio. The reality is they are all gone. Turns out to be very hard todo synced generation of audio across multi machines.

    Audio is not a place to go and play the closed source only card. Why its not workable.

  268. DrLoser says:

    I don’t class Pulseaudio as a good idea to use for serous music production.

    And I don’t class listening to duck quacks echoing in your head as a good idea to use for posting about subjects upon which you are entirely ignorant, Fifi.

    But to be fair, we could both be equally wrong on our respective positions.

  269. DrLoser says:

    Friday night comes early round Easter time, doesn’t it?

    oldfart the answer is not what you like. Every commercial solution for clustering up a systems to handle complex audio is dead. Only the open source solution Jackaudio is left. So its Jackaudio or nothing.

    Jackaudio?

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

  270. oiaohm says:

    http://www.winbeta.org/news/how-force-windows-8-use-100-your-bandwidth-and-prevent-bandwidth-limiting
    This is problem 1 once you start using netjack on Windows.

    https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/18667011-c034-43bc-ab2e-0e87bf811e5e/windows-7-increase-the-limit-of-concurrent-tcp-connections-not-related-to-eula-file-sharing?forum=w7itpronetworking

    This is 2 problem is number of open connections Windows supports at 1 time.

    You are running netjack on OS X or Linux no problems as you don’t have these connection limits. Midi command instructions being sent out to all the slave computers are not heavy on bandwidth but heavy on connections. Yes you could have 1000+ active tcp connections. With jackaudio using a Windows machine as a slave is workable but using a Windows machine as a master controller can be a major failure.

  271. oiaohm says:

    You do not get it. If I do create “really complex” audio setups, it will not be with unsupported FOSS – It will be with commercial off the shelf components with support.
    oldfart the answer is not what you like. Every commercial solution for clustering up a systems to handle complex audio is dead. Only the open source solution Jackaudio is left. So its Jackaudio or nothing.

    Sorry claiming you will use only commercial off the shelf components shows how little you know. This is the real world Oldfart some case FOSS is the only option because there are no commercials any more.

    http://alternativeto.net/software/jack-audio-connection-kit/
    Yep pulseaudio is the only other server option again FOSS and it lacks OS X support. I don’t class Pulseaudio as a good idea to use for serous music production.

    There are many emulations of old hardware synthesisers and the like that only run under Linux. http://bristol.sourceforge.net/

    There are some Linux only VST files out there as well.

    symphonic choirs suffers from iLok drm failures. So having your keys backed up does not mean it will be any use to you. Yes after a clean install of symphonic choirs on window you might have stuffed up audio. Also with OS X you might have it simple refuse to install because it detecting something it don’t like this could be an OS X update. Yes install before X update not after. So that backed up iLok key might be worthless as well due to someone pirating on that key and they added it to blacklist so as soon as you apply updates it fails. Basically your backup plan for symphonic choirs just check around for those who have attempted to use a back plan like yours and had it fail Oldfart. It a case you need a backup plan to the complete program.

    The company behind Finale is cool they are not going to be any major trouble as long as you can prove ownership. Mind you they will most likely void your old keys and give you new ones in case of physically lost device.

  272. DrLoser says:

    And in such cases Music composers both hobbyist and professional (and I, unlike you, am a trained composer!) they would simply have duplicate licenses in different locations.

    Somewhat of an ad hominem attack, I feel, oldfart. We all of us have different abilities. We have each acquired training in those functional specialities that carry us through life, whether in work or in leisure.

    oiaohm, for example, is quite clearly not a “trained composer.”

    But then again, oldfart, you are not a trained chimp, either, are you?

    I feel it is important to encourage mutual respect around here.

  273. DrLoser says:

    (And you’re seriously not going to want to hear the solution I came up with. In my defence, I don’t like it either.

    (But if you educate even billion dollar companies like mine to expect cheap and/or free software — and believe me, they don’t give a rat’s patootie about the “Free as in Speech” meretricious crap — then the results are inevitable.

    (Such companies will buy what even I will characterise as “Microsoft Crap.”

    (Why? Because it’s cheap, cheerful and relatively functional. Not to mention supported.)

  274. DrLoser says:

    Here’s another thing I don’t get.

    When Linux gains an extra percentage point of web page views in a week, everybody here flings their metaphorical hats into the air and shouts, “Behold! The market has spoken!”

    And yet when there’s direct evidence that FLOSS apps are being beaten like a red-headed step-child by their commercial competitors, the opposite applies. Hats firmly crammed over the ears, everybody shouts “Alas! The market is mistaken!”

    I think, for the ends to justify the means, you actually have to possess the means in the first place. And — unsurprisingly, because this is how markets work — it is not the case that FLOSS software is superior in every case.

    I found this out the other day at work. Charged with selecting a technology for an all-singing, all-dancing, presentational format for things like a “Getting Started” screen and a more up-to-date “help” system, I plumped for PDF … as you do. (HTML5 was an alternative, but I discarded it on the basis of immaturity at present. Worth a look in future.)

    Now, since I work with a bunch of Swedish freetards, I needed a FLOSS (or at least Open/Free) library suite. Unlike Robert, I can actually program in C and C++, so the choice of bindings available to my .NET program is immaterial.

    Unfortunately all the choices on offer are shoddy broken crap.

    There are several decent commercial alternatives, which oddly enough all retail at roughly $800 per individual license or $3000 for a site license. The variance in price is nugatory.

    Now, this tells me something about the Power of the Market, in re commercial vs FLOSS products.

    Sadly, it won’t tell you lot anything, because you’re still trying to work out what sort of hat to wear for the next celebration/funeral wake.

  275. DrLoser says:

    This is one of the problems I have. Many times people making a case to use Windows for a lot of things have it wrong. 3d rendering and audio rendering are two areas where OS X and Linux does rule. In fact a combination of both is the best.

    Whatever, oiaohm. No cites as usual, I see.

    Now, let’s take your word as Gospel (following a long tradition of Apocrypha) and assume that the best programs for 3d rendering and audio rendering are, in fact, FLOSS. And by a long way.

    Can you spot the obvious defect in the argument that you therefore need to use the Linux Desktop?

  276. oiaohm says:

    You do not get it. If I do create “really complex” audio setups, it will not be with unsupported FOSS – It will be with commercial off the shelf components with support.
    oldfart the answer is not what you like. Every commercial solution for clustering up a systems to handle complex audio is dead. Only the open source solution Jackaudio is left. So its Jackaudio or nothing.

    Sorry claiming you will use only commercial off the shelf components shows how little you know. This is the real world Oldfart some case FOSS is the only option because there are no commercials any more.

    http://alternativeto.net/software/jack-audio-connection-kit/
    Yep pulseaudio is the only other server option again FOSS and it lacks OS X support. I don’t class Pulseaudio as a good idea to use for serous music production.

    There are many emulations of old hardware synthesisers and the like that only run under Linux. http://bristol.sourceforge.net/

    There are some Linux only VST files out there as well.

    symphonic choirs suffers from iLok drm failures. So having your keys backed up does not mean it will be any use to you. Yes after a clean install of symphonic choirs on window you might have stuffed up audio. Also with OS X you might have it simple refuse to install because it detecting something it don’t like this could be an OS X update. Yes install before X update not after. So that backed up iLok key might be worthless as well due to someone pirating on that key and they added it to blacklist so as soon as you apply updates it fails. Basically your backup plan for symphonic choirs just check around for those who have attempted to use a back plan like yours and had it fail Oldfart. It a case you need a backup plan to the complete program.

    The company behind Finale is cool they are not going to be any major trouble as long as you can prove ownership. Mind you they will most likely void your old keys and give you new ones in case of physically lost device.

    http://www.winbeta.org/news/how-force-windows-8-use-100-your-bandwidth-and-prevent-bandwidth-limiting
    This is problem 1 once you start using netjack on Windows.

    https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/18667011-c034-43bc-ab2e-0e87bf811e5e/windows-7-increase-the-limit-of-concurrent-tcp-connections-not-related-to-eula-file-sharing?forum=w7itpronetworking

    This is 2 problem is number of open connections Windows supports at 1 time.

    You are running netjack on OS X or Linux no problems as you don’t have these connection limits. Midi command instructions being sent out to all the slave computers are not heavy on bandwidth but heavy on connections. Yes you could have 1000+ active tcp connections. With jackaudio using a Windows machine as a slave is workable but using a Windows machine as a master controller can be a major failure.

  277. oldfart says:

    “You do not get it. If I do create “really complex” audio setups, it will not be with unsupported FOSS – It will be with commercial off the shelf components with support.”

    And to give you an idea of where I will be looking for my options you may want to take a look at

    http://www.sweetwater.com/

  278. oldfart says:

    “This is one of the problems I have. Many times people making a case to use Windows for a lot of things have it wrong. 3d rendering and audio rendering are two areas where OS X and Linux does rule. In fact a combination of both is the best.”

    If it turns out that OS X as a platform is warranted, I have no problems moving my licenses to OS X – they are dual platform and acquiring mac hardware, As far as linux as a secondary is concerned, unless you come up with a relevant and current cite to back you up, you are as usual full of it.

  279. oldfart says:

    “oldfart so personal means you don’t have dead-lines for you music production. 9/11 stuff applies to parties who might be working at home and have signed contracts with dead lines to produce results. Yes Music composers do work with these things.”

    And in such cases Music composers both hobbyist and professional (and I, unlike you, am a trained composer!) they would simply have duplicate licenses in different locations. Remember Finale allows up to to installs per license, and will release a given license for reuse if you call them and explain that you have lost a computer. IN the case of symphonic choirs I have a spare iLoc Key warehoused and my licenses are bacek up a the iLok site. So I am covered without any need to resoprt to ersatz freeware.

    “Oldfart I guess hobbyist with no plans ever todo a real complex audio setup.”

    You do not get it. If I do create “really complex” audio setups, it will not be with unsupported FOSS – It will be with commercial off the shelf components with support.

  280. oiaohm says:

    oldfart so personal means you don’t have dead-lines for you music production. 9/11 stuff applies to parties who might be working at home and have signed contracts with dead lines to produce results. Yes Music composers do work with these things.

    So I guess you are just a hobbyest. Musescore is only now adding its own SFZ engine but its far from complete. But that still does not stop you using jackaudio with Musescore or rosegarden to use your existing acquired audio sound fonts.

    oldfart something to remember is understanding how to use jackaudio particular its network form allows you todo 1000 instrument+ setups. Yes 1000 instrument setup with effects can be too heavy for a single computer to handle. Windows networking limitations can also become a major pain here. OS X might have cost you a little more but if you ever do anything that needs lots of network connections at least it will.

    You might wonder why in hell would you have 1000 instruments yes there are a lot of duplicates its when dealing with 5.1 and the like sound and you are scoring in a moving instrument effects. Yes getting to 1000 instruments is not hard 20 piece band with movement can get to 1000 when each instrument has 50 placement locations. Yes movie seen.

    Oldfart I guess hobbyist with no plans ever todo a real complex audio setup.

    Basically if you don’t have OS X and you are using Windows it pays to be able to operate in Linux as well as a Audio person in case one day you decide todo something massively complex. OS X audio users don’t have to do this due to OS X not having a number of active connections limit just like Linux. But the OS X hardware cost is a killer.

    This is one of the problems I have. Many times people making a case to use Windows for a lot of things have it wrong. 3d rendering and audio rendering are two areas where OS X and Linux does rule. In fact a combination of both is the best. Yes the same linux render farm used for 3d rendering can be used for complex audio rendering if it configured that way. Most people are not aware really complex audio sometimes needs a server side as a poor single computer will be crushed to death by the processing.

  281. oldfart says:

    “Freedom preempts all other concerns, and Windows lacks the freedom to modify and share, or to even examine what it does.”

    What you seem to forget is that windows is nothing more than the supported platform that I use to run the applications that I want to run. I value these applications because they get the job done the way that I want them to be. The so called FOSS applications that are continually proposed to me I do not value because they will require to stop composing in order to make them work for me. My time to make music is limited as it is.

    “Why would a technology that is not open to public scrutiny be any less contemptuous then science not open to public scrutiny?

    “The light of the Enlightenment clearly has not pierced through fully!”

    Actually I am quite enlightened. I know for a fact that the so called “free” applications that are proposed as substitutes not only do not meet the capabilities that I have with my commercially licensed closed source applications. I know for a fact that if I used there applications, I would come to a point where I would have to stop just composing and start using the skills that I currently earn my living on far more than I do now. I am enlightened enough to know that I do not value the ability to stare at thousands of lines of C++ code ( that is what musescore is written in) I do not value the possible ability to retrofit musescores ability to handle the VST plugins that are the standard for windows based music plugins and the core of the support for my in memory samplers. I am enlightened enough to know that my time to compose is limited and precious to me and that I do not want to “play” programmer with this software, and I DEFINITELY do not wish to do so for free should I aver decide that I will devote time.

  282. oldfart says:

    “DrLoser if you don’t want me using 9/11 name me another recent case that there has been major hardware damage requiring companies to rebuild self.”

    I am not a business and this discussion is not about business, it is about my personal use. Your entire line of babble is irrelevant to me in this context.

  283. Future says:

    oldfart,

    If you put economics over freedom you might as well be a practitioner of Maoism. Freedom preempts all other concerns, and Windows lacks the freedom to modify and share, or to even examine what it does. Why would a technology that is not open to public scrutiny be any less contemptuous then science not open to public scrutiny? The light of the Enlightenment clearly has not pierced through fully!

  284. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser if you don’t want me using 9/11 name me another recent case that there has been major hardware damage requiring companies to rebuild self.

    Other examples are cyclones and massive storms. You cannot talk about disaster management failures without referring to events with massive dead in most cases. 9/11 is in fact the least dead recent example. 9/11 happened to be in a key location due to the number of cooperate head quarters involved. 9/11 took out a complete stock exchange.

    http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/new-york-stock-exchange-moves-to-linux.html Yes a few years latter they migrate to full source code control solution.

    DrLoser should I be using Hurricane Katrina of course this is not a good gauge. The storm damage is that wide spread that in some of these storm cases there was no possibility to set operations back up. So the data on USA tornadoes that have hit businesses. See the problem yet 9/11 is one of the few times we have cleanish number to see fairly min damage to a business resulting business failure. I am not picking it at random. There are 1000~s of disasters to pick from. Problem is most don’t give clear examples of limited business damage.

  285. oiaohm says:

    http://musescore.org/en/node/21159

    Something I did not mention Musescore on Linux is different to Musescore on Windows. What is the difference. Functional Jack-audio

    Yes you can use jackaudio on Windows to a point. But you are missing all the extra effects things.

    Garritan Sample Libraries are SFZ files. usable under Linux.
    https://community.ardour.org/node/4546
    And that is partly because Garritan and Linuxsampler developers talk to each other. Linuxsampler also supports Vienna Symphonic Library.

    Please note Vienna Symphonic Library comes in SF2 format that is Musescore internal engine compatible.

    This is the thing most of the libraries for Music are fairly platform neutral other than down-loaders and encryption. The few things in the Music world that are not cross platform on Linux to some extent(possible to make work in wine at min is some extent) normally contain nasty teeth that are in fact disrupting you audio work flow.

  286. DrLoser says:

    For instance, when I bought this computer new, I had purchased it from Dell sans a M$ OS. That was a conscious and very cognizant decision that would lead to many years of blissful computer use.

    If you seriously have any intention of acquiring your High School Equivalency at any point in the future, Doug, may I politely suggest that the rest of my argument is possibly worth consideration?

    You fall into Set Y, btw, although that is hardly the point.

    The point is, and I am bringing two and a half millennia of concentrated philosophical thought to bear here …

    Your choice is fine for Set Y.

    But it doesn’t work for Set X.

    If you can’t see that as an obvious conclusion, I suggest that you forget about that HSE. It’s way, way outside your pitiful intellectual reach. Just leave that sort of stuff to the eighteen year olds.

  287. dougman says:

    Nobody makes a “free choice” of a computing system…mmmmmmm, I would disagree on that.

    For instance, when I bought this computer new, I had purchased it from Dell sans a M$ OS. That was a conscious and very cognizant decision that would lead to many years of blissful computer use.

    Since I have installed Linux Mint, I have had not one hiccup, not one driver issue as Linux includes all the needed drivers to function.

  288. DrLoser says:

    oldfart you don’t want to hear this but companies that went under after 9/11 had the same problems Robert complained about. Low budget and need for operational software quickly. This is best served by FOSS. If you software selection is closed source using incompatible formats to FOSS solutions you are now in big trouble.

    And that nauseous little repetition of your 9/11 meme came out of absolutely nowhere, didn’t it, Fifi? If you think it’s worthy of discussion, you have another think coming.

    You really are a disgusting creepy little piece of cosmic dag, aren’t you?

  289. DrLoser says:

    I’m not sure I understand the point of this “music app vs OS choice” argument, anyway. Nobody makes a “free choice” of a computing system, in the purely Kantian sense of a Categorical Imperative. Nor, for that matter, in the Platonic/Aristotelian sense of ἀρετή.

    Some people (call them set X) have a particular function or set of functions in mind, let us say “music apps.” These people do not care about the platform. They want the perfect form of that app.

    Some people (call them set Y) have a particular platform in mind — perhaps because of rotten experiences with other platforms, but the reason does not matter. These people do not require the perfect form of any given app. They want the perfect platform.

    I see no reason why individuals from set X and individuals from set Y should even waste their time arguing over irreconcilable differences.

    To set X, ἀρετή (often, vaguely, translated as “virtue”) is in particular applications.

    To set Y, ἀρετή is inherent in the platform.

    Both attitudes are equally valid, as far as I can see.

  290. DrLoser says:

    Whoops, sorry, correction. That’s still a subjunctive use, not an objective one.

  291. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser wrote, “Ye is the second-person, plural, personal pronoun”

    I’ve never thought of “ye” as being plural but that’s what Webster’s says. Then they give an example, “This would cost you your life in case ye were a man.”

    I guess languages evolve.

    They do indeed, Robert, they do indeed. Ye is a fine example of such, since (I believe) it was originally spelled, and pronounced, with a thorn in place of the Y. (Which pronunciation, interestingly, lasts into the only slightly less antiquated “thee,” being in this case the second-person, plural — or “formal/polite” — objective form of the personal pronoun.)

    However, in the case you cite, there’s about as much “evolution” going on as there is in the Linux world. To put it politely, precisely none whatsoever.

    Don’t be confused by the apparent plural conjugation of the verb, “were” … this is, in fact, the subjunctive form of the singular. What you are actually seeing here is ye — the plural second person pronoun — being used in the polite/formal sense, as described above.

    If it helps, you can think in terms of German here. The principle is precisely the same, saving obviously that the subordinate verb does not appear at the end of its clause.

    So, no evolution at all, Robert.

  292. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you don’t want to hear this but companies that went under after 9/11 had the same problems Robert complained about. Low budget and need for operational software quickly. This is best served by FOSS. If you software selection is closed source using incompatible formats to FOSS solutions you are now in big trouble.

    http://musescore.org/en/about/schools-universities-using-musescore
    Musescore is quite a well used bit of software. So really half baked claim need to be put in context. From you high bias point point it might appear half baked. Be careful when you throw stones because someone might throw stones back at you

    Please note you called musescore half backed yet you did not list 1 thing it was really missing.

    Please don’t say instruments. fluidsynth doing soundfonts and linuxsampler.org doing group of others.

    EastWest Symphonic Choirs there are alternatives to this and it does pay to know them.
    http://syntheway.com/choir.htm comes to mind.

    Please note EastWest DRM maker preference can introduce disruptions to real-time audio processing under Windows (cracking in your recording with no trace to cause). EastWest Symphonic Choirs are only safe to use on OS X then due to the DRM used it will not install on every OS X machine. Yes that program is how to get very angry very quickly when you have been told to set up a lab full of machines of it due to odd issues. Don’t complain to vendor over this stuff.
    http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=408856
    Why because what happened to this guy will happen to you.

    Basically Oldfart if you don’t have alternate option to EastWest Symphonic Choirs your an idiot who has not researched what they are using. All it will take is one bug report or forum post the wrong way and them class you as attempt to crack their app and they will cut you off.

    EastWest Symphonic Choirs is one of the items we cannot get working under wine because the vendor is a true ass.

    Finale 2014 and Garritan Sample Libraries as windows user is safe and both don’t have DRM problems (ok not bad enough to block running in wine). EastWest is just a problem child.

    Oldfart this is some of the reason why you need to know if a vendor is Wine project tolerant or not. If they are not wine project tolerant look at them very carefully lot of cases you will find nasty DRM policies and more often than not crap running in background disrupting things.

    EastWest Symphonic Choirs does a huge amount of marketing.

  293. oldfart says:

    ” I would not enslave the world to please those 10-20%.”

    No you would just enslave us to Linux and its set of inferior because you have decided that Linux and FOSS is all that we need. How nice of you Robert Pogson!

    You have decided that because I have the temerity to not be willing to replace Finale 2014, the Garritan Sample Libraries and EastWest Symphonic Choirs with a motley collect of half baked software like muscore or, even funnier, Rosegarden. I am not thinking out of the box.

    As far as I am concerned, it is you who cant get past the prison of your own parsimony combined with your bad experience with long obsolete versions of windows running on ill provisioned an ill maintained desktops. You are the one who cant fathom why I would not want to take on the challenge of making FOSS software better for all.

    All I want to do is make my music without having to listen to some retired school teacher call me slave and drug dealer. You have NEVER for one minute understood that when It comes to my personal use, I am completely uninterested in geeking up my desktop. It is a tool not a toy!

  294. LinuxGentlesir says:

    On the contrary, oldfart does use a lot of GNU/Linux at work. He favours RedHat and deals with hundreds of machines. That’s not his problem… 😉 He seems to think only inside the box when it comes to personal use. Most of the world do not have those hang-ups; they just want to get on-line and do e-mail, FB, searching, reading, writing, listening, viewing, … that kind of stuff. The problems oldfart lists do not affect 99% of normal consumers and only 80-90% of office workers. Munich etc. showed that. I would not enslave the world to please those 10-20%. oldfart would.

    Even so, it’s very difficult to both apathetic and deft at the same time!

  295. oiaohm says:

    You fail to notice that your arguments are pointless and irrelevant in the face of the reality that there is no vendor support for running the applications that I want to use on linux.
    Remember Oldfart you started off on the arguement that the application did not even work under Linux. That was bogus.

    The lack of vendor support is simple that users of the product don’t show they they demand the support. Game players using steam took over 10 years to convince Valve to support Linux.

    The reason why Finale has no Linux support is part the company that makes it and part its end users like you Oldfart.

    Basically Oldfart wants everything served up on a silver plater and have to do no work at all to get it.

    Like it or not lack of vendor support more than 90 percent end users fault and less than 10 percent vendor. Some vendors love extreme digital rights management and other things that is not portable.

    Oldfart have you even bothered submitting a request for Linux to be supported by Finale. I guess not. If enough of Finale customer base was putting in the requests it would happen.

    Yes the vendor support arguement is mostly bogus as well. Reality Oldfart you are a lazy sod.

  296. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson with the advancements what was a 80-90/20-10 split is drifting in the direction of 95/5 split.

    Linux has closed the gap.

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=valve-gaben-opengl-3-years

    Remember it was only 3 years go that it was all most impossible for valve game engines to perform at all on Linux.

    Yes the move to wayland is being slow. Yes the move to newer IPC is also being slow. Also something else most people have not noticed the number new API and New functions for Windows has decreased.

    Things are not status normal any more.

  297. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart is always on about the applications and has completely failed to notice that more and more applications just happen to work in Wine. At some point there will be only pointless stuff left windows only.”

    And at some point none of it will matter because I will be going. I fail to0 notice nothing, You fail to notice that your arguments are pointless and irrelevant in the face of the reality that there is no vendor support for running the applications that I want to use on linux.

  298. LinuxGentlesir wrote, of oldfart, “he works in IT and doesn’t understand (or doesn’t want to understand) how to use GNU/Linux professionally”.

    On the contrary, oldfart does use a lot of GNU/Linux at work. He favours RedHat and deals with hundreds of machines. That’s not his problem… 😉 He seems to think only inside the box when it comes to personal use. Most of the world do not have those hang-ups; they just want to get on-line and do e-mail, FB, searching, reading, writing, listening, viewing, … that kind of stuff. The problems oldfart lists do not affect 99% of normal consumers and only 80-90% of office workers. Munich etc. showed that. I would not enslave the world to please those 10-20%. oldfart would.

  299. LinuxGentlesir says:

    So over the next 2 years we could be looking at the horible case that Windows applications end up being fastest on Linux. Between improving graphical drivers and better IPC things are going to get interesting.

    That would be interesting! What I like about Wine is that it can run Windows applications in their own sandbox, so that if the Windows software has a virus it can’t really do all that much damage to your system. To me, this is enough to say that GNU/Linux truly can run Windows applications better then Windows can itself.

  300. LinuxGentlesir says:

    I imagine there are many serious musicians who do none of these, for example, folks who keep playing until they get it right. I know that’s the hard way but some very serious folks do that.

    Mr. Pogson,

    You mean serious musicians can make music without involving computers at all???!! 🙂

    Very few people out there actually make a living from music, and the ones that do have skills and a fanbase that aren’t make or break depending on what OS their laptop runs.

    Olderfart is not a real musician, he works in IT and doesn’t understand (or doesn’t want to understand) how to use GNU/Linux professionally, and is perhaps upset that his collegues make more money then him. He has decreased opportunities as the Microsoft ecosystem continues to shrink, and he is afraid that blogs promoting GNU/Linux like yours will do further damage to his career prospects.

  301. oiaohm says:

    Really I will be nasty here.

    The old arguement is about the Applications why Linux is not used is mostly bogus today. As most application either have Linux native versions or work in Wine.

    Applications support is also questionable. Third parties sell support. So its more that you are a cheapskate.

    https://wine-staging.com/news/2015-03-22-release-1.7.39.html

    Please note here. For years wine/X11/Pulseaudio have been using posix SHM. Posix SHM for performance is crap. Note a lot of wineserver calls in wine were 10 times slower than windows. Yes why wine benched faster than windows in some cases and slower in others.

    memfd and sealing has a major advantage over posix pipe. Why application don’t have to be woken up by the scheduler to check if the pipe is empty or not. Process will be woken up when there is truly something waiting for it to process.

    This is the big thing Linux focused on being posix compliant for far too long.

    So over the next 2 years we could be looking at the horible case that Windows applications end up being fastest on Linux. Between improving graphical drivers and better IPC things are going to get interesting.

    With the changes Oldfart point of view that application is not for Linux just because it does not have support vendor on Linux could be very foolish.

  302. oiaohm says:

    Serious musicians sometimes need to do complex processing of older sound the major offerings in this space from Sadie and sonic studio are not available on linux.
    Oldfart again how many of those are chicken/egg problems.

    You have to remember OS X has had the same kind of problem as Linux. Interesting enough when applications got used enough in cross-over applications got ported to OS X.

    Please remember Wine project gets request all the time to port to Windows to allow old applications to run.

    http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=410894

    Besides Oldfart if you had been reading the finale forums you would have known that people do manage to get finale working.

    Please remember you first arguement was that a composer could not use finale on Linux. This is in correct. Ok they many not have vendor support and may have to make codeweavers fix things.

    Going to Linux 3 options
    1) you don’t need alternative to finale as long as you are willing to work to fix wine up.
    2) you don’t need alternative to finale as long as you are willing to pay someone like code-weavers to maintain it in a working state.
    3) use something else from the FOSS world todo the job.

    Oldfart this applies so much. Really its no longer that much about the Application. Its really down to just the support for the application. Some comes from vendors some comes from end users.

    Oldfart is always on about the applications and has completely failed to notice that more and more applications just happen to work in Wine. At some point there will be only pointless stuff left windows only.

  303. ram says:

    All music applications that serious music professionals use run natively under Linux. Just Google “Movies Linux” or “Movie Soundtracks Linux”, etc!

    No amount of paid advertising, captive magazines, yada yada, can change that.

    P.S. By “serious music professionals” I mean those people composing today (not living off of ancient royalities) making an income to support an upper middle class or higher lifestyle. The vast majority of these people work creating soundtracks for movies, commercials, and theme parks. We do other stuff as well, but those three mostly provide the bulk of reliable steady income.

    P.P.S. Serious music professionals also often work for outfits such as: Universal Studios, Pixar, Weta Digital, and other big production houses. Guess what? They ALL use Linux nearly exclusively.

    P.P.P.S. Or go to shop selling 4K TV’s and look at the demos — almost all produced using Blender under Linux 😀

  304. dougman says:

    The facts are, Windows is too much a headache and Linux does everything I need.

    More on the topic, Linux has succeeded on the desktop in the form of the Chromebook, as five-thousand, two hundred and fifty Chromebook are now in the hands of all Racine Unified School District students.

    http://journaltimes.com/news/local/education/olympia-brown-third-graders-say-thank-you-for-chromebooks/article_3b71e86a-5382-57fc-8184-bceeaf01c32f.html

    Then you find this: http://www.slashgear.com/asus-chromebook-flip-is-a-convertible-chrome-os-steal-31376082/

    and combined with this: http://chrome.blogspot.com/2014/09/first-set-of-android-apps-coming-to.html

    Which brings convergence to Android and ChomeOS.

  305. oldfart wrote,

    • “Serious musicians have to notate their music and generate parts for live musicians. None of the programs of this class that they would depend on are supported officially on linux.”
    • “Serious musicians have to deal with the processing, mixdown and mastering of multitrack audio. None of these are available for linux.”
    • “Serious musicians sometimes need to do complex processing of older sound the major offerings in this space from Sadie and sonic studio are not available on linux.”

    These details, apparently, define “serious”. I imagine there are many serious musicians who do none of these, for example, folks who keep playing until they get it right. I know that’s the hard way but some very serious folks do that. Rather than “mixing” recordings, they “mix” mics and then just record sessions. It works for them. That’s probably impractical for long pieces such as oldfart’s but fine for a few minutes’ of music.

    There are plenty of musicians who don’t work at all from sheet music. They play a piece until they’ve learned it and improvise on it. That’s most common for solos but small bands also do that. Rather than distributing sheet, they play the tune for the other members who embellish it one way or another and they practice together until they get it right. Don’t ask me how they do that. I can barely walk and chew gum at the same time.

    I can’t imagine there are many musicians who deliberately modify others’ work to incorporate into theirs. That sounds like copyright infringement. I suppose some might issue/sell licences to do that to their work but I doubt that’s widespread. Technically, a serious musician might record or sample his own music to butcher it some way, but he’s allowed. I think only a tiny fraction of the music I hear has anything of that.

    Further, I do know serious musicians who do use Ardour and Audacity to do wonderful work and that software does run on GNU/Linux.

  306. oldfart wrote, “Robert Pogson is a coward who allows his peanut gallery to do his dirty work”.

    That’s not it at all. I’m just tired, old and lazy. I have not the energy to do more than read the comments. I skip over the obviously silly/irrelevant ones. Gardening season approaches and my tractor is still not ready. I will be having less time than ever to intervene. BTW, the engine runs beautifully but I still have to modify the linkage to the governor to get it to work and the two major parts of the rototiller don’t match. I might have to drill some new bolt-holes. I also have to check the settings of brakes and clutch for safety to make sure the thing doesn’t run amok. With 18HP that cannot be allowed to happen. Worst case is the tractor spins in place with no way to get to the controls… 😯

  307. DrLoser wrote, “Ye is the second-person, plural, personal pronoun”

    I’ve never thought of “ye” as being plural but that’s what Webster’s says. Then they give an example, “This would cost you your life in case ye were a man.”

    I guess languages evolve.

  308. oldfart says:

    “oldfart you sound like a 6 year old. oldfart stick with yes or no name calling, no changing between them , or else you sound like a 6 year old saying “well mommy he did it first, so I should name call back! [even if he doesnt believe in it]”

    Fair enough Queenie. The question remains, do you actually have something substantial to contribute? Because thus far you make oiaohm look like a mensa student.

  309. oldfart says:

    “Because, if not, you are simply farting into the wind. Although obviously you wouldn’t be able to transcribe the transcendent notes that come out of your bottom.”

    Most likely B Flattus.

  310. Adam Queen says:

    “You are treated as you treat others. My nym is oldfart, not farting oldman. once you fix that I shall refrain from name calling.”

    oldfart you sound like a 6 year old. oldfart stick with yes or no name calling, no changing between them , or else you sound like a 6 year old saying “well mommy he did it first, so I should name call back! [even if he doesnt believe in it]”

  311. DrLoser says:

    Do you have a definitive FLOSS candidate for transcribing musical notation in such a way that actual musicians can play the damn stuff, incidentally, Dougie?

    Because, if not, you are simply farting into the wind. Although obviously you wouldn’t be able to transcribe the transcendent notes that come out of your bottom.

  312. DrLoser says:

    Ye’ old farter sayeth …

    Well, I suppose this is mildly less risible than wearing your company baseball hat on backwards and pretending to be “Down wit’ Da Hood!” But only very mildly so.

    1. Ye is the second-person, plural, personal pronoun in antiquated English (say, 17th century or before).
    2. Sayeth, on the other hand, apart from being pretty much obsolete since before the Founding Fathers did their Founding Father thing, is actually the present indicative third person singular.

    What a lovely smorgasbord of declensions you have achieved there, Doug-nut.

    An interesting mix of bizarre and unfathomable ignorance, isn’t it, Doug-nut? Possibly something to do with your complete lack of useful education.

    But I have to say, I admire your chutzpah in attempting a pathetic sort of superiority which you manifestly lack the cojones to carry off.

    Next question, Doug-nut:

    Which letter of the alphabet do you think I am suggesting via a hyphenated ellipsis there?

  313. dougman says:

    Sir Bing-a-Ling, it wasn’t quoted, otherwise I would have placed it in quotation marks to begin with.

    So, not ONLY are you blind, but you are an ignorant, inflammatory, a narcissistic liar, bordering on needing psychopathic therapy and a true sadist that enjoys offending to get a response.

    http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/trolls-just-want-to-have-fun.pdf

  314. DrLoser says:

    Then go away and shutup, before I taunt you a second timer.

    The correct quote, Doug-nut, is:

    No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

    You can’t even get that right, can you? What, exactly, is the point of you? Why are you here? I’m pretty sure that Robert could scrape just about any high-school drop-out from the bottom of his capacious barrel (many of whom he has taught in Easterville).

    You have absolutely nothing to contribute to a discussion of how a customer of software that transcribes a musical script and relates said transcription both to the individual parts and to the multi-track playback, do you?

    Seriously, Doug-nut. What is the point of you?

  315. oldfart says:

    “Then go away and shutup, before I taunt you a second timer.”

    Go right ahead DogBrain, you stink at taunting anyway.

  316. dougman says:

    Ye’ old farter sayeth “Linux does not support the applications that I wish to use”

    Then go away and shutup, before I taunt you a second timer.

  317. oldfart says:

    “You don’t get it. Robert is not going bother about a complaining person.”

    Meh.

    Robert Pogson is a coward who allows his peanut gallery to do his dirty work. Unfortunately for him his peanut gallery are not very effective.

  318. oldfart says:

    ” why do you take oiaohm’s name calling as an offense , while you call me “queenie” and “queef”? That is not fair!”

    You are treated as you treat others. My nym is oldfart, not farting oldman. once you fix that I shall refrain from name calling.

  319. oldfart says:

    “oldfart did you not notice it gets past along to the development team.”

    No but I did notice one of the techs being nice to a poster that he really could not help.

    “Also notice the volume of demand requirement to get a pure native version.”

    What volume? your bogus cite concerns smartmusic, not finale.
    Care to put up the “real” cite?

    “As I said there is currently no evidence that the product works correctly. The fact there is no evidence that the product works correctly is why Makemusic currently does not provide support either.”

    Pure irrelevant bullshit – no support by the vendor is no support by the vendor – period.

    Care to try again sir?

    “Really Oldfart you are depending on my cites as DrLoser knows they are suxer punches. ”

    Your so called sucker punches do nothing but make you look bad. They don’t bother me at all.

  320. oldfart says:

    “All music applications that serious music professionals use run natively under Linux. Just Google “Movies Linux” or “Movie Soundtracks Linux”, etc!”

    While there does exist a long history of linux based video/movie processing tools (which of course have to deal with sound tracks for the video as part of the process of editing and processing movies/videos, video processing applications only constitute a subset of the continuum of “all music applications”

    Serious musicians have to notate their music and generate parts for live musicians. None of the programs of this class that they would depend on are supported officially on linux.

    Serious musicians have to deal with the processing, mixdown and mastering of multitrack audio. None of these are available for linux.

    Serious musicians sometimes need to do complex processing of older sound the major offerings in this space from Sadie and sonic studio are not available on linux.

    Given these facts you may wish to reconsider using the word “all”

  321. ram says:

    All music applications that serious music professionals use run natively under Linux. Just Google “Movies Linux” or “Movie Soundtracks Linux”, etc!

    No amount of paid advertising, captive magazines, yada yada, can change that.

    P.S. By “serious music professionals” I mean those people composing today (not living off of ancient royalities) making an income to support an upper middle class or higher lifestyle. The vast majority of these people work creating soundtracks for movies, commercials, and theme parks. We do other stuff as well, but those three mostly provide the bulk of reliable steady income.

  322. oiaohm says:

    oldfart did you not notice it gets past along to the development team.

    Interesting enough is finale bugs on wine that are being extremely tricky to work out in fact get support from the makemusic development team. Just they don’t provide testers or maintenance staff.

    So the reason why Finale is not support on Wine is lack of end users wishing todo so oldfart. Makemusic is not hostile to having a Linux product.

    While it may be possible to run Finale on Linux via WINE, we cannot guarantee results and are unable to provide support for running Finale in an emulated environment.
    oldfart most people are miss reading this. Makemusic leaves the support side to crossover and wine project. Makemusic will not kill your license or anything else for trying wine.

    Also notice the volume of demand requirement to get a pure native version.

    Really Oldfart you are depending on my cites as DrLoser knows they are suxer punches.

    Oldfart you are part of a chicken/egg problem. If people are not trying Finale in wine there is no evidence of demand so Makemusic will not make Linux version.

    As I said there is currently no evidence that the product works correctly. The fact there is no evidence that the product works correctly is why Makemusic currently does not provide support either.

    oldfart finale is not the only application like this. People look to vendor and says hey vendor does not support Linux when in fact they are not against or for at all. The issue you miss most quality control is in fact done by end users running the product and reporting bugs.

    oldfart a lot of closed source programs on Windows are currently in the chicken/egg problem.

  323. oldfart says:

    “Avid product competitor”

    IS not a music notation package. Nice try.

  324. oldfart says:

    “The reality in most cases you don’t have the evidence to back the arguement “does not support the applications”. Really at most you can claim is “may not”.

    Nope. “Does not support” is proper wording when the vendor of the application does not support the OS. Remember:

    1) I am talking about specific applications, not substitutes.
    2) I am not interested in running under wine.

  325. oldfart says:

    Funny Oldfart that is another lie by you. They will in fact provide tech support to those using Wine. I of course intentionally did not tell you this before.

    They will will they? ;ets look at what was actually said 5 years ago by finale tech supportL

    “Welcome to the forum! SmartMusic is only developed and supported on Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Mac OSX 10.4, 10.5 and 10.6 at this time. I will pass along your request for a Linux-based version to our development folks, however.”

    Please show all:
    1) Where is finale mentioned at all by Finale tech support
    2) Where support for finale is mentioned at all by tech support.

    “Funny Oldfart that is another lie by you. They will in fact provide tech support to those using Wine. I of course intentionally did not tell you this before.”

    It would seem that YOU sir either have problems with reading comprehension or think that anyone else reading your cite is stupid.

    And you wonder why you are disrespected…

  326. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you really need to change you wording.

    It is also a fact that when used as a desktop, it does not support the applications that I wish to use.

    The reality in most cases you don’t have the evidence to back the arguement “does not support the applications”. Really at most you can claim is “may not”.

  327. oldfart says:

    “His jaded view of Linux is that it sucks, so he comes here and spews his verbal diarrhea.”

    My view of linux is that when the commercial version “licensed” by Red Hat is used, it is just fine for use as a platform for the Enterprise LOB applications that I help support. It is also a fact that when used as a desktop, it does not support the applications that I wish to use. And that is all that counts for me and many others.

    ” However, his view is blindsided as he *uses* Linux everyday, but does not realize it.”

    I know that I don’t use a linux desktop, and that’s all that counts in this case.

  328. oiaohm says:

    oldfart PS I told you about the Avid product competitor that one does no provide support if you are running under Wine. Basically your arguement has been so far baseless its not funny.

  329. oiaohm says:

    Except that the vendor Makemusic will not support running on anything other than windows and OS X. Vendor support is very important to me, and more importantly running a linux desktop is simply not that important to me that I will forego vendor support.

    http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=23&m=300494

    Funny Oldfart that is another lie by you. They will in fact provide tech support to those using Wine. I of course intentionally did not tell you this before.

    Forego vendor support arguement in this case is completely bogus.

  330. oldfart says:

    “The reality here is no evidence exists to say finale does or does not run on Linux.”

    Except that the vendor Makemusic will not support running on anything other than windows and OS X. Vendor support is very important to me, and more importantly running a linux desktop is simply not that important to me that I will forego vendor support.

  331. oiaohm says:

    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=454
    dougman this is what is so funny. Finale has worked fine under Wine with many versions. Issue is that the wine project have no audio people who know how to use the program to test it and provide feedback on the appdb if it working or not.

    The reality here is no evidence exists to say finale does or does not run on Linux.

    As Oldfart says he is not willing to work with any FOSS project to provide the required feedback. As person who has helped out with the wine project I would love to find a few people for some of these preferred applications.

    This is the reality there are a huge number of applications that either have Linux native replacement or function perfectly in emulation these days.

  332. dougman says:

    I seriously doubt if Finale was available on the Linux platform, the Ol’ Farter would switch OS’s. His jaded view of Linux is that it sucks, so he comes here and spews his verbal diarrhea. However, his view is blindsided as he *uses* Linux everyday, but does not realize it.

  333. Adam Queen says:

    Agreed with what oiaohm. TMRetards are a bunch of bullies and hypocrites. oldfart why do you take oiaohm’s name calling as an offense , while you call me “queenie” and “queef”? That is not fair!

  334. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    You still dont get it sir. I do not have to explain anything to you, ever when you insist on butting in and presuming to answer for Robert Pogson.
    You don’t get it. Robert is not going bother about a complaining person.

    I will continue to challenge him until he either bans me or admits that calling people names for not doing things his way IS WRONG!

    Yet you have supported and laughed when ever TMR guys have called people names. Sorry Oldfart you might well drop the stop calling people names bit as you have supported that in the past. So you are in this case the pot calling the kettle black. Like recently you said that drloser/deafspy calling me Fifi was acceptable. Sorry if you don’t believe is right Robert to call people names you need to apply this equally to the people you hang out with.

    Robert is not a master of Audio. That you have used the same package for 25 years kinda suggests you have never compared competing products.

    The reality here its not Robert who is the one who should be able to make the case why the other programs cannot be used. Oldfart its you who should be able to make the case.

  335. oldfart says:

    “oldfart I give yoy advice. You should shut up and stop wasting time here and use That other OS as much as you want. That does not cbange the fact that GNU/Linux is superior.”

    Superior for what Queenie?

  336. Adam Queen says:

    oldfart I give yoy advice. You should shut up and stop wasting time here and use That other OS as much as you want. That does not cbange the fact that GNU/Linux is superior.

  337. oldfart says:

    I will continue to challenge him until he either bans me or admits that calling people names for not doing things his way IS WRONG!

  338. oldfart says:

    “oldfart there is a old say send a thief to catch a thief.”

    Do tell. Who you are “catching” is beyond me.

    ” You really need to make the proper arguement why you cannot use the FOSS applications.”

    Wrong. Remember sir, I have a solution and an environment that works for me and BTW has worked for 25 years (my license for Finale was purchased in 1990 for the original windows 3.x version and is still current). Robert Pogson claims that all I need is Linux and FOSS. I have challenged that. When challenged Robert Pogson has actually recently admitted that the equivalent of what I use is not there but he hopes it will someday be there. Unfortunately at the same time he still chooses to call me and others names for the “sin” of continuing to use windows to run the software that works for us. That being the case, I will continue to challenge him until he either bans me or admits that calling people names for not doing things his way.

    “I have already stated application to do what Finale does.”

    And I believe that those were Rosegarden and Musescore. Is that the case?

    “There are some serous reason to be testing out the open source stuff because that stuff might in time let you get by with just a chromebook.”

    And why would I want to do that?

    “You are calling me a lier and fraud so I don’t answer this. The result of calling me that is now me playing the care prove you point properly to me. Of course this make your life a misery because you have to list what is missing.”

    You still dont get it sir. I do not have to explain anything to you, ever when you insist on butting in and presuming to answer for Robert Pogson.

    You are nothing to me, jack!

  339. oiaohm says:

    oldfart there is a old say send a thief to catch a thief.

    Mistranslation. The real translation is that I have a working solution, and if Robert Pogson wishes to make his case to me or anyone that he is pitching FOSS to. Robert Pogson was given URL’s to examine that give more than enough “documentation.” on what Finale does.
    I have already stated application to do what Finale does.

    Robert Pogson is not your IT Support Officer. So he does not have to make the arguement why you should be using X application. You really need to make the proper arguement why you cannot use the FOSS applications.

    But since you have once again stuck your two cents into a discussion. Are you saying that that there exists a FOSS music notation package that does what Finale does?

    You are calling me a lier and fraud so I don’t answer this. The result of calling me that is now me playing the care prove you point properly to me. Of course this make your life a misery because you have to list what is missing.

  340. oldfart says:

    “Really you should not attempt to correct some else ignorance with even more ignorance or you have some one like me rip you. Reality is that FOSS Audio has been used commercial productions.”

    Actually a professed and demonstrated liar and frud like yourself dones’t get to “rip” anyone. And talking about “FOSS audio” when a notation program with playback capabilities is under discussion is completely irrelevant.

  341. oldfart says:

    “Translation this basically means I am not willing to work with FOSS or even check out if FOSS provides the functionality I need.”

    Mistranslation. The real translation is that I have a working solution, and if Robert Pogson wishes to make his case to me or anyone that he is pitching FOSS to. Robert Pogson was given URL’s to examine that give more than enough “documentation.” on what Finale does.

    But since you have once again stuck your two cents into a discussion. Are you saying that that there exists a FOSS music notation package that does what Finale does?

  342. oiaohm says:

    oldfart but the cites you choose were pure advertisement. Nothing that proved or disproved that the product was not replaceable.

    What I know or don’t know is,., in this case, irrelevant. The cites presented were given to correct Dougie’s ignorance on the subject.

    Really you should not attempt to correct some else ignorance with even more ignorance or you have some one like me rip you. Reality is that FOSS Audio has been used commercial productions.

  343. oldfart says:

    “You are tunneled vissioned I bet you would have never known that a box office successes had used Open Source audio. ”

    What I know or don’t know is,., in this case, irrelevant. The cites presented were given to correct Dougie’s ignorance on the subject.

    And, as usual, you galumphed in with your usual barrage of irrelevance.

  344. oiaohm says:

    I don’t care what YOU are sir, you are not anything to me. Nor do I want to waste time energy and effort attempting to work with some penny ante FOSS developer in the hopes that that developer can duplicate the function and feature in the software that I am productive with now.
    Translation this basically means I am not willing to work with FOSS or even check out if FOSS provides the functionality I need.

    What I want is for Robert Pogson to acknowledge that it is possible for someone to have legitimate reasons to continue using windows based commercial software. What I want is a modicum of respect of my choices and the choices of others like me from Robert Pogson. We are not sheep or slaves – we are people with solutions that work for us.

    Oldfart so you are demanding that Robert Pogson believes you claim that the software is require when you cannot list the missing features and what cannot be duplicated in FOSS. Basically no supporting documentation so he does not have to believe you at all. Too lazy to do the supporting documentation that is your problem Oldfart.

  345. oldfart says:

    “We are not your IT support personal. Oldfart. As I have asked you many times exactly what do you want and have you submited bug reports asking for those features.”

    I don’t care what YOU are sir, you are not anything to me. Nor do I want to waste time energy and effort attempting to work with some penny ante FOSS developer in the hopes that that developer can duplicate the function and feature in the software that I am productive with now.

    What I want is for Robert Pogson to acknowledge that it is possible for someone to have legitimate reasons to continue using windows based commercial software. What I want is a modicum of respect of my choices and the choices of others like me from Robert Pogson. We are not sheep or slaves – we are people with solutions that work for us.

  346. oiaohm says:

    https://developer.chrome.com/native-client/devguide/distributing
    kurkosdr the answer is truly yes that it would be allowed as long as Qt on NACL was officially stable. Shipping unstable applications are not tolerated.

    Most people talking down chrome books as only web applications really have not done the required reading to wake up that chrome does provide a native binary option.

  347. kurkosdr says:

    http://qt-project.org/wiki/Qt_for_Google_Native_Client
    Really if the world is going Chromebook the above needs some investment. Yes its possible that items like Rosegarden and Musescore could be made work inside chrome as a NACL application.

    Yes but, are such apps allowed by Google in the Google Chrome store?

    If yes… hmmm.

  348. oiaohm says:

    http://qt-project.org/wiki/Qt_for_Google_Native_Client
    Really if the world is going Chromebook the above needs some investment. Yes its possible that items like Rosegarden and Musescore could be made work inside chrome as a NACL application.

    There are some serous reason to be testing out the open source stuff because that stuff might in time let you get by with just a chromebook.

  349. oiaohm says:

    http://alternativeto.net/software/finale/
    Also Oldfart sites like above exist. That tell you want open-source or other software could be a possible option. So really there is no valid reason to come in here say Hey I use X closed source program please tell me what I should use instead. Since you should have got that information else where.

    We are not your IT support personal. Oldfart. As I have asked you many times exactly what do you want and have you submited bug reports asking for those features.

  350. oiaohm says:

    oldfart is basically a suxer for advertising.

  351. oiaohm says:

    oldfart I see. Lets ignore the fact that many 3d movies have ended up using blender audio for final alignment.

    Problem you have here with Movie credits saying Finale was used is that does not mean someone did to use rose-garden or other tools at other points heck it does not mean Finale did the final audio render. Putting Finale in credits gets movie makers discounted versions.

    You have to remember most blender using in most Movies has been located by its unique interface between displayed in make of movie yes FOSS tools used in movie production don’t get credits.

    dougman is right. Oldfart its you who is using insulting names.

    The movie might be a 90/10 setup. 90 percent FOSS 10 percent closed source stuff but only closed source stuff will appear in credits.

    http://icewalkerz.blogspot.com.au/2008/10/linux-on-hollywood-hollywood-movies.html

    Its not a new thing. You can bet a few are open source audio. Lord of the rings second movie was done using open source audio tools.

    This is the problem Oldfart we want to hear want is wrong with rosegarden and the other tools that have been used in movies in the past to know where they have fallen behind.

    We give our reasons, but they are ignored or dismissed as the dependency of slaves on their master – This from a man who has no answer to what we should replace specific applications with!
    You are being ignored for good reason.

    You are tunneled vissioned I bet you would have never known that a box office successes had used Open Source audio. The problem open source developers have is knowing what features are wanted. Also the problem of spend money on closed source and not invest in open source and even worse not even consider open source no matter how good it has done.

  352. oldfart says:

    “oldfart remember you are only a guest here this is not a home. You cannot open up your own topics here. This is Roberts home and we are the guests.”

    I can open up any topic that is relevant to what Robert Pogson posts. But if you choose to butt in to my conversation with your own line of bullshit, and get insulting to boot, I have every right to dismiss you for the liar and fraud what you have admitted that you are.

    I have told Robert Pogson on many occasions that if he does not like what I post he can just censor me by banning me. He has not chosen thus far to do so.

    So I will continue to post as I see fit within his guidelines, not yours

  353. oldfart says:

    ” The desktop was locked out by M$ and “partners” but they are losing their grip, finally.”

    And how would that be Robert Pogson? Peoples needs for specific software don’t disappear you know.

  354. oldfart says:

    “I seriously doubt that someone like him, will ever produce anything of significance.”

    As usual DogBrain thinks that his childish insults constitute a contribution to the conversation. You can cast all the aspersions on me but I doubt that you can cast aspersions on:

    http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/spotlight-on-whiplash-composer-justin-hurwitz/

    or

    http://www.finalemusic.com/blog/finale-2015-academy-awards/

    But perhaps these people should just give it all up for a chromebook, eh?

  355. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson FOSS has to aim higher due to lower income rates on average. So Apple with there huge mark up can get by at 5 percent.

    10-15 percent is based on what a FOSS product needs. At that point there is enough resources.

  356. oldfart says:

    “You are on his blog and you telling him to go elsewhere?”

    Robert Pogson brings his IMHO warped view of what IT should be to the world in general and to his readers (me and others) in particular from his blog. Those of us who say “thanks but no thanks” to his arguments. We give our reasons, but they are ignored or dismissed as the dependency of slaves on their master – This from a man who has no answer to what we should replace specific applications with!

    This is Robert Pogsons blog, but so long as he permits those of us with another view of IT to post uncensored, we shall do so.

  357. oiaohm wrote, “To be true-full 5 percent is kinda small the golden you are aim for is between 10 to 15 percent at that point you have enough diversity to get feedback to make a quite decent product.”

    Apart from their “walled garden” modus operandi, Apple actually has a reputation for doing some things right and their share of desktop was 5-6% for ages. Lately their web-stats have increased a lot but their SEC filings still show only 16.34million for their 2013 annual filing. If legacy PCs shipped ~300million in that year, Apple’s Mac-share was only 5.4% of legacy PC units shipped. In 2014, they did even better, shipping 18million Macs (5.8% of legacy PCs), while the world shipped 308million. Even 1% is enough to live well on for a business. At their margins, Apple can afford to do what it wants as far as investing in new/improved products.

  358. oldfart wrote, “ARM, FOSS and Linux don’t get the job done for all of us Robert Pogson.”

    It certainly does the job for many millions if you include Android/Linux and web-servers. The desktop was locked out by M$ and “partners” but they are losing their grip, finally.

  359. dougman says:

    KUKU and the flash crash on Linux Mint 5?

  360. dougman says:

    Farting Oldman assumes that since he spent lots of money on composing software, it magically makes him a composer. I seriously doubt that someone like him, will ever produce anything of significance.

  361. oiaohm says:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/kurkosdr

    Mind you I would love to see kurkosdr return to its youtube page and start doing video again. Of course this is if this Kurkosdr is in fact the real one not just another TMR stolen identity.

  362. oiaohm says:

    oldfart remember you are only a guest here this is not a home. You cannot open up your own topics here. This is Roberts home and we are the guests.

    So what you have just admitted is from a online point of view you are already homeless vagrants. I do have many online homes I can return to. I just find this place fun.

  363. LinuxGentlesir says:

    You are on his blog and you telling him to go elsewhere?

  364. oldfart says:

    “We are social beings. It should make us sad that X% of humanity is enslaved by Wintel and M$’s EULA. ARM, FLOSS and GNU/Linux liberate our fellow human beings and it’s all good.”

    And its also good that I have my composing sofware as well. Funny thing is that I have it is spote of the best efforts of a certain cheapskate named Robert Pogson who thinks the world should be ready to give up working software to conform to his bullshit notion of freedom.

    ARM, FOSS and Linux don’t get the job done for all of us Robert Pogson. And unless you can provide me with a working substitute work what I have that doesn’t disrupt my work, Peddle your baloney elsewhere!

  365. oldfart says:

    “I don’t know where the TMR guys are going to find a home.”

    If Robert Pogson bans us, then in my case it will be nowhere. I’ve been actually been composing more lately using my windows based commercial software and have less time on my hands for losers like you.

  366. oldfart says:

    “farting oldman never listens to me just because I give facts.”

    And what facts are those Queenie?

  367. oiaohm says:

    I don’t know where the TMR guys are going to find a home.

    comp.os.linux.advocacy is where they started. The crew who currently there is very technically minded and rip TMR guys to bits with most of their stupid points.

    kurkosdr android has been very slow to grow but developers are seeing returns matching iOS at this stage.

    Market share does effect possible profit levels.

    If Desktop Linux does not work for you, what would change if it gets -say- a marketshare of 5%?

    Lets look back to what a 1% change has done over 2014-2015. In 2013 it look basically impossible for Mesa to catch up to the Opengl standard in under 10 years. Today it looks like it will be done in 2 years. We know at this stage this is not Android because Mesa only this year started to be fixed for Android(yes Android developers had been ignoring it)

    Improvement in Dictionary and Thesaurus including the create of new ones that did not exist before. This is the effect of country adoption.

    kurkosdr working out how to increase market share is of interest because increase market share equals quality and performance improvements for the Linux world. Libreoffice increasing market share is giving it money to pay developers todo things.

    To be true-full 5 percent is kinda small the golden you are aim for is between 10 to 15 percent at that point you have enough diversity to get feedback to make a quite decent product.

  368. Adam Queen says:

    kurkosdr TMRetards are now homeless M$ shills. They have no place to stay now. DrLoser95 always talks too much bragging about the C knowledge and the cat is just an angry M$ shill who defends it to death got exposed and farting oldman never listens to me just because I give facts. I will never ever miss them. They are mean to me at TMR , just because I support GNU/Linux!

  369. DrLoser prattled on, “You are, as always, assuming a binomial distribution.”

    No, I’m not. I assume StatCounter has filtered some logs and come up with counts like decent human beings. They don’t require any model to do that. My point is that the predominant OS has such huge counts that the daily variation relatively is insignificant. It’s probably accurately measured. The numbers of counts for GNU/Linux, being smaller will have more variation. That’s OK as long as we average it a bit. Nevertheless, on days when GNU/Linux is high, it’s probably due to more machines running GNU/Linux visiting those sites. Those machines must exist whether or not they run on other days. They don’t disappear, just go dark somehow. Thus the peaks are more significant of the number of machines that exist than the dips when machines may be off/not visiting the target sites. However you look at it, peaks, valleys or averages, GNU/Linux is ramping up nicely in France.

  370. Adam King wrote, “Statistics can be made to say whatever you want.”

    Trust, but verify…

    In the real world there are things that can be known and described pretty well by numbers. Web-stats are such things, so the filtering/counting/tabulating/graphing/interpretation are useful and necessary operations. It’s good to have multiple unbiased sources of web-stats but in principle they are useful. Monopolies could, in principle, pay to have bias injected, but discovery would really hurt the brand. I hope the web-stats we get are only biased by the things we know like language barriers, uneven sampling of sites and the like, rather than deliberately enhancing M$’s brand. If M$ is paying anyone to make M$’s numbers look good, they aren’t paying enough… [SARCASM]

  371. kurkosdr wrote, “If Desktop Linux works for you, why bother how much marketshare it has?”

    We are social beings. It should make us sad that X% of humanity is enslaved by Wintel and M$’s EULA. ARM, FLOSS and GNU/Linux liberate our fellow human beings and it’s all good. It’s like Uncle Charlie figuring out how to grow tomatoes. We are glad for him and those others who gain capability, capital, efficiency and freedom. Successfully escaping slavery makes the world a better place and web-stats are some measure of how things are going.

  372. kurkosdr says:

    BTW, where do TMRtards gather around those days?

  373. kurkosdr says:

    @Adam King

    Moreso, statistics about stuff you can’t influence and/or shouldn’t care about.

    If Desktop Linux works for you, why bother how much marketshare it has?

    If Desktop Linux does not work for you, what would change if it gets -say- a marketshare of 5%?

    Truth is, all of us involved in this thread are wasting our time. In one of the worst possible ways. But some take it seriously.

  374. LinuxGentlesir says:

    DrLoser,

    None of the statistics terms you applied incoherently are relevent to the type of statisical analysis Mr. Pogson is doing. I’ll do you a favor and post the right Wikipedia article for you, so you can come back after reading and lecture us about how much more brilliant you are then the rest of us mere mortals.

  375. Adam King says:

    Statistics can be made to say whatever you want. That’s why they are so popular with the illegal monopoly and its defenders. I prefer calculus.

  376. DrLoser says:

    A little more basic tenth-grade education on the ways of statistical analysis, Robert. I’m really sorry I couldn’t provide you with these elementary tools when they might have been of use to you in your professional, as opposed to retired, capacity, but … better late than never, eh?

    …but on some days, a lot of browsers are running GNU/Linux so the peak values are more important than the lows or averages.

    Three minor yet critical observations here.

    1) You are, as always, assuming a binomial distribution. (You can correct me and claim that it is a Poisson distribution, should you so wish.)
    2) Assuming a binomial distribution, your statement is blatantly incorrect. Given a binomial (or other symmetrical) distribution, I am afraid that “the lows” are equivalently “important” — not really a statistical concept, but I’ll let it ride — as the “peak values.”
    3) Even the “averages” are questionable. On what appears to be your tenuous current supposition, given your calculation, this average is arithmetical. In which case it would fairly clearly have the same “importance” as the “peaks” and the “lows.” Otherwise there is no point at all in calculating it.

    I do think a median would suit the case, as stated, better, though.

    Any ideas on this, Dougie? I mean, you’re still trying to catch up with those days of yore, twenty years or so ago, when you bunked off class, ignored your High School Diploma, and concentrated on Important Stuff, like Random Pointless Internet Cites.

    Care to try a bit of trivial stats and exercise your greying cells?

  377. LinuxGentlesir says:

    Android has a huge marketshare, but doesn’t have as much wealth of games as iOS

    Video games are literarly a waste of time. I was a HUGE video gamer when I was a Windows user. One of the things that find so great about discovering GNU/Linux was that it weened me off video games.

    GNU/Linux is instead biased towards scientific applications, it itself built in the spirit of open scientific collaboration. These activities are intended to push humanity forward. Groups that tend to work to the change the world or to probe into Nature seem to have an overrepresentation in Free Software or GNU/Linux communities.

  378. kurkosdr says:

    because people = because most people

  379. kurkosdr says:

    BTW, I never understood why FOSSies are so obsessed about marketshare.

    Android has a huge marketshare, but doesn’t have as much wealth of games as iOS because people who buy Android phones buy them as touchscreen phones with Facebook Messenger and Angry Birds.

    OS X has a minority marketshare and yet has a rich ecosystem.

    Why? ISVs and IHVs don’t care about how many users, they care how many of those users buy stuff. This is the reason I buy my Android apps (besides not having to run an AV on my phone): As an Android user, I want to be on that group that pays for apps and creates support for the platform. On Windows, not so much. Devs would be crazy to abandon Windows.

  380. DrLoser says:

    Define a short time period. … The share is fluctuating quite a bit, indicating some large groups are taking the day off, doing other work, whatever …

    That there is a fine definition of a “short time period,” Robert.

    A short time period is a period of time in which there are very large observable fluctuations that can only by explained by random guesswork.

    Hey, statistical analysis is easy if you put your mind to it!

  381. kurkosdr wrote, “based on a short time period”.

    Define a short time period. How many millions of browsers are running in France on a given day, tens of millions? Say a day is a “short time period”. A week is better and 8 of them consecutively is pretty long. The share is fluctuating quite a bit, indicating some large groups are taking the day off, doing other work, whatever, but on some days, a lot of browsers are running GNU/Linux so the peak values are more important than the lows or averages. It means there are Hell of a lot of PCs in France running GNU/Linux. I know governments and schools are using it a lot and some businesses. So, I will accept that the rate of growth may decline or increase and probably not remain as it is but I certainly can enjoy the stream just as I enjoy a warm shower on a cold day.

  382. kurkosdr says:

    You do realize that I am dutifully bookmarking posts like these, right? So, when your predictions based on a short time period and on statistical noise made significant by chart cropping turn out to be false, I ‘ll have a wealth of material to use for mocking purposes.

Leave a Reply