The 50th Reason To Hate That Other OS

We all have reasons to hate that other OS, whether it’s the price, the re-re-reboots, the performance, the EULA…. but this is a game-changer.“Superfish is more than inconvenient; it’s downright dangerous. The certificate it uses to intercept your browsing has been thoroughly compromised and can be used for signing software your PC would trust, as well as telling you that your online banking site is secure when it’s intercepting your traffic- just to give attackers a couple of ideas. It also stops smartcards from working. Even worse, Lenovo’s initial instructions for removing it would leave vulnerable certificate on your PC.
And this isn’t the first time OEM software has caused problems. One notebook I looked at a few years ago had an amazing 79 running processes when you started Windows (not including the processes for Windows itself) all of them pre-installed software. One of them was a cloud storage service that hooked every single file write and redirected it via the network stack, making saving a file very like swimming through treacle.”
Many people consider that other OS as the must-have/GoTo operating system of business/consuming/gaming.

Now, it’s known that Lenovo, one of M$’s “best” OEMs, has embedded third-party software that snoops on HTTPS encrypted web-traffic to place ads… This is where we are. People love small cheap computers. To hide the price of that other OS, OEMs need other revenue from third-party software/hardware makers, you know, folks who are willing to pay to get stuff onto the ubiquitous legacy PC.

So, this is yet another reason that the EULA from Hell is a crime against humanity on a global scale. That an OEM as big as Lenovo would even be able to consider such a compromise of the security of users is the tip of the iceberg of corruption that surrounds M$ and its OS. Just like there are 50 ways to “leave your lover”, this is the best: M$ and its “partners” are openly abusive of consumers.

I recommend everyone switch to GNU/Linux. It’s easy. Demand your local retailers sell them. Shop online for a GNU/Linux PC. Heck, install it yourself. Heck, you can even get that other OS to start the process. I recommend Debian GNU/Linux, software that works for you, not some corporation with the morality of a snake. The beauty of it is that the licence you get with the downloads includes the right to examine, modify and distribute the software, so you can cut out all that third-party crapware, if there were any. Debian doesn’t bother attaching crapware to PCs it doesn’t sell…

Another option: Rather than buying a PC with GNU/Linux or that other OS, you can buy a PC with FreeDOS or no OS and installing GNU/Linux. This saves you M$’s licensing fee. I’m sure you have a better use for your money. 😉

See Lenovo's Superfish blunder makes it harder for you to love Windows.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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222 Responses to The 50th Reason To Hate That Other OS

  1. oiaohm says:

    The result here is you don’t bat 100 percent with bug reports.

    https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=35376
    You will notice this one is resolved fixed. push and pop did not exist in that section when I opened that bug report. If you check out the mailing list you will find the developer who implemented push and pop talked to me about it we both agreed that push and pop would be the way forwards. Then we both forgot to close the bug. Then the triage team cleans it up. I call that bug a half fail. Its not just bug reporters who forget to close bugs but also developers who fix bugs.

    If you follow my rollcage bugs with winehq again it only half the story I was undoing particular patches I though were causing the fault. Due to the complexity I was not right and lead developer was not right. We end up having a blasing arguement in IRC then he started running rollcage demo and he was just as confused as what I was .

    DrLoser to be correct you have only picked out my worse bug reports. With wine by bug over rollcage lead to discovery that Microsoft software implementation and documentation was wrong. No hardware had implemented a particular flag ever. Rollcage went nuts when ever it saw that invalid flag and run completely strange and nuts code paths some of them worked if the wine code happened to react a particular way.

    The reality here is most of my bugreports start with a bug report end with a IRC or mailing list discussion my problem ends up fixed different to what I wanted but who cares it works and a huge stack of other problems disappear.

    Hard to judge, really. All I have as evidence is what is before me on an Internet trawl, involving the Austin Group. Which is probably unfair.

    What is unfair because there was no possibly when I first did those doing request to post to the mailing list for clarification was not possible. Majority of my fault issues with FOSS don’t get to bug reports its normally mailing list or irc question why is this odd/what have I missed.

    DrLoser the reality is I admit the bug system suxs but its the best we have. As I have found reporting does improve things.

    http://sourceforge.net/p/docfetcher/bugs/762/
    This one of my newer bugs. I have got better at doing bug reports with time. My newer bugs are fairly much fixed how I expect them to be.

    Professionals, and this includes FLOSS professionals, do not want your garbage bug reports. Even genuine bug reports take significant effort to process.
    DrLoser the problem here is if a person goes the the effort of doing report something is normally wrong. Ok they might not be able to express it correctly but something is wrong. The problem here is the tools to express it are very limited. Like me all bug reporters get better at expressing the fault the more experience they have at doing bug reports.

    So lets say you don’t take garbage bugreports the results is you don’t get experience bug reporters who give you quality reports.

    I have worked with the wine project for a long time. They knew I was horible at bug reports. So wine project has a system. There are the developer and the bug triage team. Basically a developer asking me what is the worst I am going todo in a bug report. A triage person does not need to be a developer. They simplely read the bug report if it readable and seams sane(ie all key information) pass this on to the developer. If stuff it missing post questions to bug if questions are not answered close/delete bug. This system from the wine project is being taken up by most of the major open source projects.

    It turns out a good person at triage can process 100 bugs per hour. Yes a lot of their replies are macroed. Yes just over 30 seconds a bug. A developer cannot process that fast because they are thinking about how the bug relates to code. Triage person is just checking read ability and all critical information included.

    Please note to triage there need to be policies on reporting. This is why I said setting up a trac or a bugzilla allown in a path to millions of bugs with no way to process.

    DrLoser bugreporting is a chicken and egg problem. You cannot get good bug reporters and testers without having people starting off being worthless at it getting better at it with time.

    A good bug reporting person is trained to be a good bug reporting person. No one is a good bug reporting person straight off the bat.

    I would say 1 in 10 of my bugs have been fixed as I wished. About 8/10 have been fixed by other ways solving my problem. 1/10 rejected. These averages of mine don’t make me one of the top great bug reporters. Top of middle

    This is the problem I have a person does 1 bug report it fails they then say see my problem will never be fixed. Of course they never think that the problem is them and their bug report being poor quality.

    DrLoser basically I have experience in being at the ground floor setting up a bug processing system that works. Something else to notice with the wine project is bug numbers in the changelog. This turns out to be highly a great idea. The triage people of wine go over the changelog of wine and find bugs still open that developers have claimed to have fixes is surprisingly common.

    So bugzilla/trac grow out of control due to two problems. Developers and Reporters. Yes you need a triage team in the middle to keep both under control.

  2. DrLoser wrote, “Professionals, and this includes FLOSS professionals, do not want your garbage bug reports. Even genuine bug reports take significant effort to process.”

    Hmmm… That’s not supported by any evidence. I’ve seen a few grumble that fixing bugs takes away from their fun times but…

    Linus Torvalds: “Linux 4.0-rc1 out..Go test it out.”

    Greg Kroah-Hartman: “3.19.1-stable review…This is the start of the stable review cycle for the 3.19.1 release. There are 175 patches in this series, all will be posted as a response to this one. If anyone has any issues with these being applied, please let me know.”

    Of course, those calls are on LKML so it’s mostly developers who respond but bug-tracking systems do exist for a reason and they are not exclusive to developers for a reason, developers cannot test software everywhere in every way as users can. “Debian has a bug tracking system (BTS) in which we file details of bugs reported by users and developers. Each bug is given a number, and is kept on file until it is marked as having been dealt with.” see Bugs.Debian.org. Apparently Debian’s FLOSS professionals do not share DrLoser’s morbid views.

  3. DrLoser says:

    Bugzilla or a trac or any other bugtracking system alone seams to be a path to millions of bugs and no way to process them.

    I don’t suppose for a moment, Fifi La Ténia, that you actually stopped to think and consequently realised that this is my entire point?

    Professionals, and this includes FLOSS professionals, do not want your garbage bug reports. Even genuine bug reports take significant effort to process.

    DrLoser not all my bug reports have been bad. As you say there are others out there worse than me.

    Hard to judge, really. All I have as evidence is what is before me on an Internet trawl, involving the Austin Group. Which is probably unfair.

    So, oiaohm: one representative “bad” bug report and one representative “good” bug report. I wouldn’t criticise you on either one. It would be an interesting bit of evidence when discussing Bug Triage, that’s all.

    And bear in mind that you, oiaohm, are probably in the top 10% of bug reporters, as regards people who have a clue what they’re doing.

  4. DrLoser says:

    Seriously you argument here is no different to the slave dealers of old saying they did not have to care for slaves.

    It is Friday night. These things are traditional.

    BWAHAHAHAHA!

  5. DrLoser says:

    Remember I said examples of disasters

    Some of us remember, Fifi. Evidently not you.

    Some of us remember that you were comparing 9/11 to something like seven or eight equivalent “disasters.” This is not one of them.

    Some of us asked you to provide even a single equivalent instance to 9/11. This is not one of them.

    Some of us therefore suspect that your deficient sense of morality, let alone common human decency, would compare very badly indeed to that of a parasite on the human body, such as, say, a tapeworm.

    You’ve so far shown no evidence to the contrary, Fifi La Ténia.

    One single solitary relevant 9/11 equivalent, please. Otherwise you are condemned out of your own mouth of being a hideous human parasite.

  6. oldfart says:

    “oldfart”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  7. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    And those who create are entitled to dispose of their creations as they see fit, and not be subject to emotional blackmail from to give it away for free.
    This is a lie. Take someone who invents a drug and patents it. May poor countries don’t pay the patent costs. They cannot afford it.
    Remember I said examples of disasters.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2013/04/08/indias-solution-to-drug-costs-ignore-patents-and-control-prices-except-for-home-grown-drugs/

    The reality here if you can charge money for something is in the power of the government.

    oldfart the reality is unless you take someones financial means to pay and profit into account you risk waking up one day to find that government has ruled you can no longer profit that way.

    Seriously you arguement here is no different to the slave dealers of old saying they did not have to care for slaves.

    The reality oldfart people are entitled to fair compensation for their work in ways that are not detrimental to others. The key bit is not detrimental to others if the actions are detrimental you risk some point in the future the law taking away that way of making profit.

  8. oldfart says:

    “What have you got against driving down hardware costs that low?”

    What have you got against my and others using our computer hardware as we see fit, cheapskate?

    The world does not have to conform to Robert Pogsons cheapskate notions of what computing is. The world does not just always “Point, click and gawk”. Some of the world actually create the goods that people “point, click and gawk” at. And those who create are entitled to dispose of their creations as they see fit, and not be subject to emotional blackmail from to give it away for free. Especially from someone who seems determined to promote at all costs the free ride that the writer is currently enjoying.

    You think I’m being fair, Robert Pogson? Then think about how unfair your continual denigration (“Sheeple”, “slave”, Drug Pusher”) of those who say “thanks but no thanks” to your continual exhortations to use Desktop Linux.

    eh?

  9. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart lets really look at Robert Pogson case.”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  10. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart you know your cheepscate attack plan you talked about on TMR forget it now its also killed by the 9/11 and other disaster examples.”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  11. oiaohm says:

    Oldfart you know your cheepscate attack plan you talked about on TMR forget it now its also killed by the 9/11 and other disaster examples.

  12. oiaohm says:

    Oldfart lets really look at Robert Pogson case.

    His history he comes from a system completely in Disaster. Given over machines with invalid licensing combined with lack of funds. Yes from your eyes he might be having a free ride now. But the environment he use to work is like the environment many business faced after 9/11.

    If we look at what is being done with game engines those are becoming free unless you make a profit from them. Stuff like this in a Disaster does not destroy your operations. The reality is software really should be a TAX. If you make profit from it you pay if the software cannot make you profit you don’t pay.

    If I need a server class OS for whatever reason, I will license and PAY for a server class OS and run it on server class hardware and abide by the terms of the license – that is IMHO the correct way to do things.
    This is Oldfart being a moron. Lets say I do go and by Windows Terminal service or Windows Multi-point. I then attempt to install applications. I will find to extreme annoyance many programs will not work.

    The break of the EULA on Windows desktop OS’s that have happened over the years including 7 and 8.1. Yes the hacking

    Basically there is a problem with Microsoft products. Having a server and desktop product independent to each other for providing desktop applications equals issue after issue. Developers don’t bother testing on everything. Linux X11 or Wayland is being nicely lazy same solution single or multi less problems from developers because they have less to test.

  13. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser I can speak from expedience with bugzillas as well. Something that allows winehq developers to be savage is the appdb part next to it.

    https://wiki.debian.org/reportbug

    Notice debian reportbug tool this also gets bug numbers down. Lot of the problem is people reporting the same problem different ways and not being aware its already reported. This also reduces you bad english problems.

    Bugzilla or a trac or any other bugtracking system alone seams to be a path to millions of bugs and no way to process them.

    DrLoser not all my bug reports have been bad. As you say there are others out there worse than me.

  14. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser you are not a Austin Group member are you. 553 is to remain open.

    There was a very interest coverage in the meeting in the middle of 2012. Universal agreement was shell scripting would be removed from init process and many other areas. 553 remain open in case a new suitable shell becomes dominate if it does not the long term process will be removal from critical areas.

    http://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=251
    Please note 553 starts from 251. Its been a on going process to attempt to solve these problems.

    Please note when I posted into austingroup bugs there was a set of conditions to use the mailing list that conflicted with my employment contract. Those nasty requirements have since been removed.

    Posix standard body never leads. Shells we have end up in the nightmare where the shells demard to be posix conforming and then don’t do new features and then Posix demands the new features implement in shells before they get included.

    Sorry DrLoser my input as bad as it was has changed things. Some things still the same.

    oldfart there are commercial Linux distributions for music production. They do include a lot of Linux only closed source.

    From memory, Fifi has also contributed a “bug report” which proposed replacing the entire *nix file system with Base64 encoding
    Really your memory is horible bad DrLoser. It was not the entire filesystem. It again about the same problem how to handle horible file names. The annoying part is they do exist and worse used by particular closed source programs for license files and the like.

  15. oldfart wrote, “Where did you get the notion that Microsoft or any vendor is going to subsidize your cheapness!”

    The facts are that a typical PC can run many users simultaneously and restricting it not to do that via EULA from Hell is a waste of valuable resources. You clearly see that when it comes to servers and you use virtualization. Why is the desktop so special? Largo, FL, gets up to 400 sessions on a server. I got up to ~40 even on my cheapies, about $40 of server per user. What have you got against driving down hardware costs that low? It works for people. That other OS does not.

  16. DrLoser says:

    (Incidentally, that’s one of the bugs I fixed properly, Robert. Not via some botch-job like yours. But, hey, don’t pay any attention to people who actually fix things! Blather on, great-uncle!)

  17. DrLoser says:

    Now, I hate to be unfair. Some bug reports are conspicuously useful. The following one even got five stars out of five, via some incomprehensible mechanism:

    pogson
    On my system, the column heading “Wind Drift” is cut at both ends to “Vind Drif” in the Range Table. I edited the file RangeWindow.cpp to change “Wind Drift” to “Windage” in this (123) line: tbl->add(“@b@cRange\t@b@cDrop\t@b@cDrop\t@b@cVelocity\t@b@cEnergy\t@b@cWindage \t@b@cWindage\t@b@cTime”,0); There still appear to be a couple of pixels shaved off the “W” but it is more readable this way. The programme gives me accurate results. I would like to see it improved with resizable windows, fonts, etc. It is very usable as is but my eyes are old…

    I say “a bug report.” There’s a pleasingly short list of GEBC bug reports that somehow fail to feature a Mr Robert Pogson.

    Basically as far as I can see it was just a whinge. But then again, FLOSS welcomes payment via whinges!

    In fact, it’s the most common currency out there!

  18. DrLoser says:

    No, the little rascally users are the ones who find the difficult bugs and sometimes the most important ones.

    I’m up for that challenge, Robert.

    Name a single instance of that “sometimes.” Just one.

    And, once you’re done with that tiny little chore, imagine the joy of wading through the other 999,999 bits of crap bug reporting before you got to that Single Golden Instance.

    Not that I imagine you will be able to come up with a Single Golden Instance. It’s all total make-believe with you, Robert? You’ve never had to deal with this even once in your life, have you?

    But it’s fine if the rest of us poor sods do it for you. Particularly for free.

    And even more particularly whilst we listen to your whiny and worthless and distracting “bug reports.”

    Just stop sending the damn things, already.

  19. DrLoser says:

    Bottom line, Robert.

    You have never had to deal with triaging bug reports. I have.

    You have no clue how much garbage you have to deal with in the age of the Internet, when anybody can blather about anything. I have.

    You are, basically, completely unqualified to make any pertinent observation in this area whatsoever. Which you have amply proven by quoting the cost in electricity and other sundry irrelevancies per “bug report.”

    Dealing with this stuff takes time, Robert. Valuable time. Valuable time that might otherwise be spent fixing the sodding bugs.

  20. DrLoser says:

    Authours are not required at all to waste time on trivial or wrong information. They can filter out “Peter Dolding” or any report for length or language or whatever.

    Except that they didn’t.

    From memory, Fifi has also contributed a “bug report” which proposed replacing the entire *nix file system with Base64 encoding and another “bug report” — maybe several: my eyes glazed over — on his favourite subject of cgroups security.

    Every last one of them was laughed out of town. And quite rightly too: every last one of them was preposterous.

    Now, imagine dozens of determined bug-reporting idiots with less felicitous ability to express themselves than Fifi. Yes, I know that’s difficult. But it’s the sad reality.

    You genuinely do not want to wade through this garbage.

    There are better ways of systematising bug reporting out there. They are applicable equally to commercial software and to FLOSS software. In regards to the latter, I actually suspect that FreeBSD does it far, far better.

    You don’t have to be a complete buffoon to deluge your favourite Distro with bogus and time-consuming “bug reports,” Robert.

    But it couldn’t hoit.

  21. DrLoser says:

    Although, to be absolutely fair on this issue, it is quite possible that Debian packagers and other Linux distro maintainers have absolutely no better way to handle bugs than to thrash through tens of thousands of Bugzilla reports contributed by the community at large, no matter how little that particular individual might understand what a proper bug report looks like. (As one of many possible contributions here, may I point out that a valuable description is “it used to work in version A, but no longer works in version B?” And even that stands a good chance of being binned via triage.)

    In which case, God Help the poor inadequate fools.

    A thought strikes me. Has Dougie ever earned his keep as a FLOSS beneficiary, either by one of the Six Measures delineated by Robert Who Does None Of Them, or even, shudder, bug reports via Bugzilla?

    This is all very entertaining. But not really in a good way, as far as the regulars here go.

  22. oldfart says:

    “. So, you insult me when you say I am a freeloader. I worked to get FLOSS going in every school where I taught and I worked hard. It was worthwhile even if you call the result crap. You’re a lying bastard.”

    My, My,My – Robert Pogson actually feels insulted. Perhaps now you get a bit of insight into how I feel every time you decide to call me names because you don’t like the vendor who sells the software platform that supports my choice of software.

    eh?

  23. DrLoser says:

    First off, Bugzilla runs on a server and takes very little maintenance. The visitors contribute for $0. That makes Bugzilla a very efficient tool.

    No, you don’t get to evade the question, Robert. You have to pick one of the four options, or else describe another procedure.

    Bugzilla might be a “very efficient tool” in terms of software, hardware and comms cost. (We’ll leave aside the question of workflow cost, because it’s bloody awful at workflow.)

    Distributed Denial of Service attacks are also “very efficient tools” in the self-same terms. I don’t think you’re getting my point, Robert. As a programmer, with admitted bugs in my code, I do not want your worthless bug reports. Never even once.

    It’s not that I don’t want to get Problem A, with Details B, applied to subsystem C and resulting in Resolution D. Of course I do!

    It’s that, as a programmer, I am tasked with wallowing through a potentially endless mess of Bugzilla garbage on B which may or may not apply to a combination of A and C but will almost certainly never reach D. And I have to do this a thousand times! (Thus, triage.)

    It’s an incredibly inefficient process in terms of cost, Robert, although you don’t care because you’re not paying for it. You’re not even paying for the minimal cost of a Bugzilla installation or the hardware to run it on.

    You think I’m joking? You think I’m off my meds? Well then, here’s a very simple experiment you can try in your copious spare time as a FLOSS “giftie.”

    Sign up to Debian as somebody who will triage the bug reports on some part of their Bugzilla site.

    That would actually be a useful contribution to FLOSS. Sitting back and talking yourself out of doing any of the six other things you claimed were “typical” and “no hassle” …

    Not really very useful at all. On a cost-benefit analysis, Robert, your present value to FLOSS is essentially nil.

  24. oldfart says:

    “I pity them both.”

    Saith the loser and snake oil salesman…

  25. oldfart says:

    “Of course, those people don’t exist outside of M$. Read the EULA from Hell. You don’t have that right unless you give up your freedom to use the hardware you own.”

    What EULA from hell Robert Pogson? Do you mean that one that says that you can’t use the single user multitasking operating system for multiple users? Where did you get the notion that Microsoft or any vendor is going to subsidize your cheapness!

    If I need a server class OS for whatever reason, I will license and PAY for a server class OS and run it on server class hardware and abide by the terms of the license – that is IMHO the correct way to do things.

  26. DrLoser says:

    This was a huge distraction and harmed my students, the ones I’d sworn to teach diligently. The only course of action I had available was to replace the damned OS with something that worked and Caldera GNU/Linux did.

    Not precisely relevant to the topic of slavery in the modern (post 2000) world, Robert, but like a beloved old great-uncle sitting by the fireside in a care home and reminiscing about his war experiences, it’s always lovely to hear exactly the same words, in precisely the same order, over and over again. The fact that the question was about something entirely different, in this case “how can you describe me … oldfart … as a “slave” when I have very obviously chosen to transact my hard-earned cash (in a non “slave” job) to save myself incalculable amounts of spare time (in a non “slave” domestic environment) creating some form of art (blessedly free of “slave” corporate sponsorship) using tools which I have freely chosen (as opposed to “slave” dictation through emotional blackmail) as a side-project in my spare time of which (what with not being a “slave” by any single one of the definitions offered up by Robert Pogson and gleaned from a century-old version of Websters Dictionary) I have a perfectly satisfactory amount. Despite still having to work for a living, which is a problem no longer faced by Robert Pogson.”

    Well, something like that. But the main point is, Robert, I am getting accustomed to this enchanting little drone that you come out with every time. I am personally prepared to visit you in that care home and listen to it endlessly, whilst feeding you choice bits of slowly parboiled frogs (it’s an experiment. You won’t even suspect I’m doing it if I take your dentures out first, shred the frogs, and feed them to you slowly enough).

    Or then again, you could print the t-shirt out and market it via Kickstarter. It’s all the rage amongst the younger elements of FLOSS these days, you know.

  27. DrLoser, scorning FLOSS, wrote, “Opening up Bugzilla to any raving nutter who walks in off the street.” as an example of what not to do to find bugs.

    First off, Bugzilla runs on a server and takes very little maintenance. The visitors contribute for $0. That makes Bugzilla a very efficient tool. Typically, authours/maintainers ask users how a fault may be triggered. If it’s something the authour has not tried, it takes a few minutes at best to give it a go and voila, the authour has very useful information. There’s even more useful information if the user runs hardware to which the authour has not access (most of it because it’s not affordable to own everything in IT). So Bugzilla is not only the best way but it’s the least costly. Authours are not required at all to waste time on trivial or wrong information. They can filter out “Peter Dolding” or any report for length or language or whatever. OTOH, M$’s use of reports is a big bit-bucket with a multi-year time-delay, unless you are a big user and pay M$ to respond. That’s just not useful for most users and M$ keeps shipping crapware users don’t choose now that they have a choice.

  28. dougman says:

    Both Loser and Farter have no life to speak of. One is over-worked and lacks a suitable pension to retire with, the other likes to toss their pompous self-worth around.

    I pity them both.

  29. oldfart mentioned, “anyone who insists that they have a right to use commercial software running on Microsoft OS”.

    Of course, those people don’t exist outside of M$. Read the EULA from Hell. You don’t have that right unless you give up your freedom to use the hardware you own.

  30. DrLoser says:

    That’s the fundamental commandment of a mad man wanting to keep pushing out reams of buggy code in blissful ignorance.

    No, Robert, it isn’t. First of all, it isn’t a commandment. It’s an observation. And secondly there is no suggestion that “blissful ignorance” is the goal. Far from it. Read the detail of what I said again.

    All kinds of well-tested software has been found to be buggy despite the best efforts of the authors.

    This is true.

    Leaving aside the question of what “well-tested” means in this context — it’s an assumption — let us proceed. Which of the four following possibilities would you prefer, as an author of software intended for general use?

    1. A peer review by a select group of Nobel Laureates.
    2. A process-based system whereby a carefully-selected small group of respondents make bug reports. That would be, say, downstream packagers to upstream maintainers. Or (this does not happen in FLOSS, but I think it should) a group of ~100 folk with various areas of expertise who play around with a beta before it is released to the general public.
    3. Some sort of “hallway testing.” This works remarkably well in many cases. For Microsoft, it’s called “eating your own dog-food,” or simply “dog-fooding.” Let’s say there are (again) ~100 active Debian packagers at any given time. Let them install the beta in question for their family, and collect the responses.
    4. Opening up Bugzilla to any raving nutter who walks in off the street.

    You, Robert, are doing nothing but loosely alluding to the problem. Your argument presumably goes as follows:

    a. There is a problem.
    b. We must do something about it.
    c. This is something.
    d. We must do this.

    Your argument is self-evidently specious. I’m not only proposing a far better set of possible solutions. I’m clarifying, for your benefit, precisely why your “solution” is actually far more expensive than the problem.

    (Which, by the way, not only is it not guaranteed to solve … it almost certainly won’t solve.)

  31. oldfart, having little to say about the message, attacked the messenger, “you are first and foremost a cheapskate who has stumbled on a free ride”.

    The first time I ever tried FLOSS and GNU/Linux was simply because that other OS would not run for a day without crashing per PC. I had five in the classroom and there was a crash every class. This was a huge distraction and harmed my students, the ones I’d sworn to teach diligently. The only course of action I had available was to replace the damned OS with something that worked and Caldera GNU/Linux did. It was not a trivial task, either. I had to download a CD image over dial-up, 10 days of nights and weekends using a lousy Mac in the lab. It was an effort just to learn how to do things on the Mac, like downloading on one machine and transferring the file to another with a CD-burner which I had never used before. Then I had to configure five xf1186config files to suit the monitors. I did all this on my own time. So, you insult me when you say I am a freeloader. I worked to get FLOSS going in every school where I taught and I worked hard. It was worthwhile even if you call the result crap. You’re a lying bastard.

  32. DrLoser says:

    The reality is Oldfart does not want to consider software acquisition from the point of view of disaster management. So he wants to force my hand to remove the 9/11 case off the table.

    The reality is that “software acquisition” (I was minded to make a helpful correction) had bog-all to do with the topic at hand. oldfart was recalling the emotional trauma of watching people plunge to their death, at close range. You were recalling the emotional trauma of losing your penny-ante job with an incompetent company in the Australian Outback.

    The two experiences do not compare, and you are showing what I shall choose to describe very very politely as complete emotional immaturity even to consider comparing the two. (I am restraining the actual degree of my personal revulsion on this point very heavily indeed, for the sake of civilised discourse.)

    The reality is, you can’t even name one equivalent to 9/11, can you, Fifi?

    Hey, even I have one — a fun little story featuring a raccoon. Raccoons are furry and cute and are rarely to be found scratching out a disreputable living in a red leather miniskirt under a lamp-post whilst pretending to expertise that they wouldn’t even recognise if they had even once been exposed to it, which they have not.

    I’ll swap you my raccoon story for your “obviously not on the scale of 9/11, but instructive anyway” story, Fifi.

    Fire away.

  33. DrLoser wrote, of bug-reports, “This is probably the single worst type of support you could possibly offer a software organisation.”

    That’s the fundamental commandment of a mad man wanting to keep pushing out reams of buggy code in blissful ignorance. All kinds of well-tested software has been found to be buggy despite the best efforts of the authours. The authours are the last ones who should be testing their own code before release. They can easily find algorithmic errors and blatant bugs in alpha and pre-alpha testing but their own biases and egos are a huge barrier to QA. No, the little rascally users are the ones who find the difficult bugs and sometimes the most important ones.

  34. DrLoser says:

    Bug reports are an interesting offering, though. I’m sure you know how useful full-time programmers, designers, architects, packagers, etc find bug reports submitted by random members of the public. But just in case you don’t, I’ll enlighten you:

    This is probably the single worst type of support you could possibly offer a software organisation. Even triaging the welter of random complaints, misinformation, occasional nuggets buried in a passel of irrelevant details concerning the video card, the point version of the kernel, and general badly-phrased gibberish … is a loathesome burden to those who attempt it.

    It’s even worse in the FLOSS community, because one is honour-bound to treat the “donor” as some sort of co-equal. To see how wretched this experience can be, I encourage you to look up oiaohm’s “bug reports” to the Austin Group, under the pseudonym of “Peter Dolding.” (I mean, how rude. He didn’t even use his “street name” of Fifi.) The poor sods actually felt the need to respond, in great technical details, to this garbage.

    No, Robert. You would do the great and good of the FLOSS Community the best possible service by not submitting “bug reports.” As it stands, you are basically wasting their valuable and limited time.

  35. DrLoser says:

    Typically, in the world of FLOSS, people give back by contributing code, money, hardware, services, training, information services, etc. It’s not a hassle but a perfectly normal thing.

    Typically? Not a hassle? You’re fairly prominent in the FLOSS world, Robert, so let’s examine what you have given back:

    code: Precious little of that to show for, what, fifteen years?
    money: I think we’ll draw a discreet veil over that implausible scenario.
    hardware: That’s more of a Helios thing than a Pogson thing, I think. Or, to put it another way, you’ve never done this, either, have you?
    services: Nope, not a recognisable Pogson Community Gift. And I’m afraid that being paid to be a teacher doesn’t count. Even slaves do that.
    training: Well, obviously not in the more recherché yet up-to-date areas such as systemd. I assume that, had you offered free training to any other purpose, you would have mentioned it by now.
    information services: Misinformation, possibly. On rare occasions, your signal-to-noise ratio rises about 10% (but never on five days out of seven, which means the effect is presumably random).
    etc: I think we’ve found the Great Pogson Gift To The Community here.

    You certainly excel at “etcetera.” As long as it’s not a hassle, of course.

  36. oldfart says:

    “Liberating schools from that other OS.”

    And thereby making sure that your free ride continues and has a future.

  37. oldfart says:

    My “hangup” as you put it being branded to my face a “slave” for wanting to use the best software that I can afford to compose my music, and being described as a “drug pusher” for defending the quality of the software.

    I believe sir that you might be familiar with the phase

    “Whats sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander…”

    If you insist on characterizing me and the large number of others like me a “slaves” I see no reason that I can’t continue to point out when the opportunity rises that observable fact that your commitment to FOSS seems to be based mostly on your being a cheapskate who has happened on a way to avoid payment for the software that he uses.

    “Typically, in the world of FLOSS, people give back by contributing code, money, hardware, services, training, information services, etc. It’s not a hassle but a perfectly normal thing.”

    What do I care about your justifications, RObert Pogson? What you are doing STILL comes down to the observable fact that you are first and foremost a cheapskate who has stumbled on a free ride, and who not only wishes continue to partake of that free ride so but who also spends most of his time denigrating those who for whatever reason not interested in joining him in his endeavor..

    “While economic relations may be a part of society, they certainly are not the whole of it. ”

    Fair Enough, yet you Robert Pogson, have persisted in insulting and even demonizing anyone who insists that they have a right to use commercial software running on Microsoft OS.

    Something to consider eh?

  38. oldfart, exhibiting some hang-up, wrote, “all without the hassles of having to depend on the generosity of strangers to run my computer”.

    The whole idea of a civil society is that it is a good thing to depend on the generosity of strangers as we offer generosity in return.

    society:
    “The persons, collectively considered, who live in any region or at any period; any community of individuals who are united together by a common bond of nearness or intercourse; those who recognize each other as associates, friends, and acquaintances. [1913 Webster]”

    While economic relations may be a part of society, they certainly are not the whole of it. Nothing at all prevents anyone who feels indebted by using FLOSS from donating to a number of organizations as a way of “giving back”. Typically, in the world of FLOSS, people give back by contributing code, money, hardware, services, training, information services, etc. It’s not a hassle but a perfectly normal thing.

  39. oldfart says:

    “Too bad for Oldfart…”

    Well that IS a contribution,. though how useful code written in Pascal will be to the commkunity os debatable. Interestingly enough I spent last night working on the cleanup and re-orchestration of one of my orchestral score. When it is done I will generate a PDF of the score, a master WAV file of its rendition, and MIDI and MusicXML dumps of my scores contents.

    You see Robert Pogson, OldFart can and does successfully use the commercial software that OldFart paid for that happens to run on the Voldemort OS to make music – all without the hassles of having to depend on the generosity of strangers to run my computer.

  40. Deaf Spy wrote, “While there is not a single real contribution by you, I will have no other choice but to agree with Oldfart.”

    Too bad for Oldfart…

  41. Deaf Spy says:

    We are trying to have everyone produce Free Software
    Cool. When are you gonna get started with producing Free Software? I’d like to see your contribution to the world.

    While there is not a single real contribution by you, I will have no other choice but to agree with Oldfart.

  42. oldfart says:

    “We are trying to have everyone produce Free Software, quite different things. ”

    Correction, Robert Pogson, the cheapskate who is addicted to free software, is working to ensure his continued free ride.

  43. oldfart says:

    “The reality is Oldfart does not want to consider software acquirement from the point of view of disaster management. So he wants to force my hand to remove the 9/11 case off the table….”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  44. oldfart says:

    “I see I catch oldfart being incompetent using a valid reference ”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  45. Deaf Spy wrote, “If you have everyone give one’s resources for free, one will have nothing. Eventually, everyone will become poor and unable to sustain oneself. Exactly what happened with all communist countries.”

    Of course, that is irrelevant. We are not trying to have everyone produce everything for $free. We are trying to have everyone produce Free Software, quite different things. Free Software does not have to be produced for $free either. It’s just hard to sell multiple copies when the first can be freely copied and distributed, so $free is a side-effect.

    People can and do produce Free Software because they need software that works and they can use libraries and other Free Software to create and to use Free Software. It works. The Linux kernel is the supreme example. It is Free Software and available for $free from kernel.org yet it is mostly produced by paid programmers, not poor people. The developers are highly in demand. Many thousands of developers around the globe contribute to the project either because they want to help, need some particular hardware to work with Linux or because their employers do. It’s nothing to do with Communism. Most other FLOSS projects are not as vibrant but the good ones are quite popular and have many contributors, like VideoLan and LibreOffice.

  46. Deaf Spy says:

    Certainly. That would make the world a better place by sharing the joy of composition.
    Give away for the others to benefit? This is the communist ideology – all people work as per their abilities, and all receive as per their needs.

    Sadly, communism never worked. It didn’t work in USSR, didn’t work in Eastern Europe, didn’t work in Africa, still doesn’t work in North Korea and Venezuela. I can’t understand why one would expect to work it.

    The world needs software and can and does make its own.
    But this is exactly how it works now. Professional software developers create software for the people to use. Just like farmers produce food for the people to eat. Of course, for the exchange of some other resource. To simplify and improve the efficiency of the exchange, resources are usually exchanged for money.

    If you have everyone give one’s resources for free, one will have nothing. Eventually, everyone will become poor and unable to sustain oneself. Exactly what happened with all communist countries.

  47. oiaohm says:

    The reality is Oldfart does not want to consider software acquirement from the point of view of disaster management. So he wants to force my hand to remove the 9/11 case off the table.

    Item like Redhat is not a major problem in disaster. Yes you might not be able to pay the license but until you can you can use Centos or Scientific Linux.

    So oldfart would not compose a song if all he had was a Android tablet or a Linux computer because he its way too picky. Being ready for disaster means being willing to work in non optimal if you have to.

    The majority of the arguments for Windows or OS X fail when put under the true test of survivability.

    How to pay developers is a on going problem. Current commercial software licensing really is not suitable for a disaster event. The FOSS models are not perfect either. So part of understanding these disasters is we still need to create a better system for software development that does not result in tying businesses up in red tape and sending them bankrupt.

  48. oiaohm says:

    I see I catch oldfart being incompetent using a valid reference and I am meant to say sorry. Of course oldfart has not admitted that his complete arguement was wrong. Funny that how was it correct usage when you were incorrect. 9/11 would have never entered the debate if you had not been incorrect in the first place oldfart.

  49. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart this is not really true. ”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  50. oiaohm says:

    Please note even that Rosegarden from a API point of view is a single platform due to the OS to run it not having a license cost and a virtual machine can be got for many platforms for free still not a nasty vendor lock-in problem.

    Linux only programs can be run under windows/OS X badly with no extra cost using virtual machines. Yet the reverse is not true.

    As I said there are some rare exceptions to the mono platform problem. Linux BSD… Almost all Open sources OS are the exceptions.

  51. oiaohm says:

    If you choose to live with the world that chooses to live with commercial software, who knows readers of your blog may actually take you more seriously.

    Oldfart this is not really true. The choice to run commercial software was in fact forced on us. Sneaky yes. Look at the list of operating systems some time. The number of open source operating systems that can work has reduced. Linux Foundation and other are fighting to have specification opened back. x86 PC would not existed without open specifications.

    The claim we choose closed source software is like saying people choose to smoke. Lot of closed source has built their model around creating vendor locking.

    Oldfart the reality is forced and manipulated. Its funny when FOSS people start using some of the same tattics Microsoft used to get thier market share is some how a fowl. Remember Microsoft claiming that GPL was a virus that would take all the IP out a business. Never happened Never could.

  52. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser you inconsiderate ass. If I do less the other 8 times that Oldfart should have learnt his leason. I will be forced to destroy him.

    Oldfart is asking me to say sorry for something I don’t ever need to. I have been extermally kind I could have come after Oldfart straight out with the 9 points. I was wanting to leave his 30 years experence in-tacked and make it a recent over-site that he could write up as minor oversite caused by old age.

    If Oldfart wants the list he ask as it his ability to claim experience that goes poof if I am forced to give them.

  53. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser
    What proportion of Saudi doctors, teachers and bankers is female?
    Turns out good question.

    Saudi doctors, teachers and bankers about 50 percent. Why female teachers female and female treats female and yes female bankers deal with female customers. It gets really complex because the banks hospitals and schools have married staff to act as message brokers between the two sides. Pay rates are truly identical. These numbers are in the Saudi censes documents.

    Banking was only recently fixed in 2007. With the introduction of the mandatory requirement to provide female banking staff.

    Islamic law is a pain in the but. 2 men or 2 women from different families can be in a private room alone but a 1 man and 1 women from different families cannot be in the 1 room. This effects even legal proceedings.

    Saudi’s are major-ally Segregated. The result is very even job market for men and women. Before 2007 banking was a major problem for Women.

    I don’t know if the Saudis are getting better or worse for Women rights. Yes they have better job prospects. Please remember men and women are both open to prosecution for breaking the segregation rules.

  54. DrLoser says:

    Do feel free to examine the concept of “Mahram” whilst you’re at that, Robert. You may find your latent anti-Wahhabi soul invigorated by what you learn.

    Or, possibly, not. You have total freedom to learn; or otherwise.

  55. DrLoser says:

    I know a little about that. Females in Saudi Arabia get a decent education and can become medical doctors, teachers, bankers etc. They may not legally be on par with Western counterparts but they are far from being slaves. During the first Gulf War, they were allowed to drive cars because many men were on active military duty. That will return, sooner or later.

    Well, obviously Saudi women have never stumped up the $50 or litigated against the EULA. I’m not the one calling perfectly ordinary citizens “slaves,” Robert: you are. I am merely pointing out that there are certain aspects of every day life that indicate freedom of action, such as being able to drive a car without the Religious Police coming down on you like a ton of bricks. These small quotidian benefits, allotted to roughly 50% of a given population and denied to the other 50% except under grave duress, seem to me to be ever so slightly more important to that 50% than your wilful obscurantism.

    But I admit that your direct experience trumps mine in the case of female Saudi doctors, teachers, bankers, and so on. A couple of statistical requests (you may guesstimate; I have no idea what figures are available):

    1) What proportion of Saudi doctors, teachers and bankers is female?

    And since we’re talking about repressed minorities (“slaves”)

    2) What proportion of Shia women are allotted professional jobs in Saudi?

    Frankly, you could lose the “female” bit for number two.

    Oh, and a lovely bit of sidestepping on West African cocoa farms, immigrant prostitution rings, Myanmar, and the rest.

    You know? Actual slavery?

    You’re truly a piece of work, Mr Pogson.

  56. DrLoser says:

    It isn’t quite a “9/11,” but I have an anecdote to tell about an American IT Monopolist and a raccoon. Trust me, you’ll love it. It’s boffo. (Sadly no frogs were parboiled in the production of this anecdote, Robert.)

    But I’m not going to show Fifi mine until he shows me his.

  57. DrLoser says:

    Speaking of darling little Fifi, of whose IT experience we know sadly little — save that he once worked for some penny-ante outback company put together with baling wire and blue tack, that failed to survive its over-optimistic backup strategy at the end of 2001 — there’s another little item I would like to interrogate the lad about:

    You claim 30 years of experience over the 30 year there were 8 9/11 like events to teach you the lesson you failed to catch even one of them.

    I think we can safely ignore the “30 years” bit, which is just harmless gibberish. And we can safely ignore the “teach you a lesson” bit, because very few of us out here get paid — possibly very remuneratively — for wearing a red leather miniskirt and fishnet stockings and being spanked.

    I’m quite interested by this fascinating concept of 8 9/11 like events, though. Giving Fifi the benefit of the doubt, we can presumably subtract the actual 9/11 event, which I have to admit is exactly like a 9/11 event. What with it obviously being the 9/11 event.

    That leaves seven, Fifi. Do please enumerate all seven.

    No cites necessary. A simple list will suffice.

  58. DrLoser says:

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    The words oiaohm and apology do not logically belong in the same sentence, oldfart. Unless that sentence suggests that oiaohm is an apology for an IT expert.

    He’s not all that impressive on underwater radar, either, as Robert has demonstrated very well.

  59. DrLoser says:

    If you choose to live with the world that chooses to live with commercial software, who knows readers of your blog may actually take you more seriously.

    Wrong yet again, oldfart. To commit myself to such an egregious position would entirely ruin the immense enjoyment I get out of Mr Pogson’s excellent articles.

  60. DrLoser says:

    I worked for many years as a programmer on a dozen platforms and languages. I was a professional, holding multiple degrees and professional memberships.

    And yet now you’re stuck with simply hacking Pascal on Debian. (Apparently not a single one of those languages was either C or C++: otherwise you’d have just adapted GEBC to your needs and “given back to the community.”)

    Your ancient skill-set is of no relevance today, Robert. You wouldn’t last five minutes in any organisation I have ever worked in, and that includes Linux platforms, Solaris platforms, embedded platforms, and of course Slave Platforms.

    Heck, once upon a time I was quite fluent in Ancient Greek. I still look back on those days with fondness, but I’m not about to use the damn thing to order a cheese sandwich.

  61. oldfart says:

    Correction:
    “That being said I will indeed live with it… once you stop with your bullshit about tagging myself and others as “slaves”. We are entitled to pay my money as we see fit for the software that meets our needs as you are to partake of your freebies from the community. If we look at linux and find it inadequate for our needs that is our determination and our choice, as is your to use linux. That is something that you need to live with as well. “

  62. oldfart says:

    “So, I am entitled, by a licence. Live with it.”

    Which changes nothing about the state of affairs, that you choose to save money on
    computer software at someone else s generosity., and that you stand by your own words branded as a cheapskate.

    That being said I will indeed live with it… once you stop with your bullshit about tagging myself and others as “slaves”. We are entitled to pay my money as I see fit for the software that meets my needs as you are to partake of your freebies from the community. If we look at linux and find it inadequate for our needs that is our determination and our choice, as is your to use linux. That is something that you need to live with as well.

    If you choose to live with the world that chooses to live with commercial software, who knows readers of your blog may actually take you more seriously.

  63. oldfart says:

    “I worked for many years as a programmer on a dozen platforms and languages. I was a professional, holding multiple degrees and professional memberships.”

    And I worked as Programmed, systems integrator, hardware hacker in C, fortran and several assemblers(x86/87, 68000, system360, Vax-11, pdp-11) , My system 370 based utility was used to drive the IBM 3505/25 Print Punch station that were used to register over 30,000 students a year. the difference is that I know that those skills are a thing of the past and there is more to calling myself a programmer than hacking home projects.

    You should be careful describing your projects in your blog robart pogson, they are the source of much merriment to those who actually know how to program.

  64. oldfart wrote, “there is also zero probability of your becoming a professional programmer”.

    I worked for many years as a programmer on a dozen platforms and languages. I was a professional, holding multiple degrees and professional memberships.

  65. oldfart wrote, “The world in general and Robert Pogson in particular is not entitled to anyone’s work for free”.

    The GPL allows authours to charge money for their works but most don’t, relying on other means of income. So, I am entitled, by a licence. Live with it.

  66. oldfart says:

    “The world needs software and can and does make its own.”

    The world in general and Robert Pogson in particular is not entitled to anyone’s work for free. BE thankful that you can bask in that warm glow if your freebie, and keep your hands out of my pocket!

  67. oldfart says:

    “Does it annoy oldfart that I can breathe clean air here without payment?”
    We are not talking about air here, we are talking about computer software that some idealist have decided to provide a zero cost, that you Mr. Cheapskate bathe in the warm glow of.

    I could care less what you personally use. I care very much when you call me and other like me names for daring to want to use software that allows me just do what I want. I am especially irked when cost is continually brought up as the major plus of “breaking my chains” as if the fact that it also breaks my ability to compose is somehow irrelevant.

    Am I to be blamed Robert Pogson, for just wanting to compose on the lease expensive platform that meets my needs/software requirements?

    “There is zero probability of me taking up musical composition.”

    Considering what I have seen you demonstrate as your skill set, there is also zero probability of your becoming a professional programmer either.

  68. oldfart says:

    “…Old important thing. If you don’t learn history you are doomed to repeat it.”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  69. oldfart says:

    “See debates in USA’s Congress. ”

    This is between me and another. You have no part of it.

  70. oldfart says:

    “oldfart reality me using 9/11 was just using the most recent point you should have learnt the leason. The reality is just by pushing me you will completely undermine your right to claim 30 years of competent experience.”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  71. oiaohm says:

    Any IT personal who had not learnt from 9/11 that a single platform application that was not replaceable was a hazard deserves to have ass kicked. Heck if they did not know it before 9/11 they could blame incompetent teachers. You claim 30 years of experience over the 30 year there were 8 9/11 like events to teach you the lesson you failed to catch even one of them. So oldfart don’t bother claiming your 30 years of goofing off to me again.

    I hate when I get angry and start scrambling words a little. I added a not. Yes there a 8 events before 9/11 of big companies dieing in disasters due to not being able to replace software because of vendor issues.

    Old important thing. If you don’t learn history you are doomed to repeat it.

  72. oiaohm says:

    oldfart reality me using 9/11 was just using the most recent point you should have learnt the leason. The reality is just by pushing me you will completely undermine your right to claim 30 years of competent experience.

  73. oldfart wrote, “an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate”.

    See debates in USA’s Congress. Don’t expect an apology soon. Thousands have died and $billions were spent on multiple wars all based on 9/11 arguments. Some figure they get a lot of points for “supporting the troops” and making people pay for “9/11”. Heck, they even justify NSA’s tactics using 9/11.

  74. oiaohm says:

    oldfart reality you will never get a sorry over the 9/11 stuff as you proved you had not learnt anything by your comments from it.

    Any IT personal who had not learnt from 9/11 that a single platform application that was not replaceable was not a hazard deserves to have ass kicked. Heck if they did not know it before 9/11 they could blame incompetent teachers. You claim 30 years of experience over the 30 year there were 8 9/11 like events to teach you the lesson you failed to catch even one of them. So oldfart don’t bother claiming your 30 years of goofing off to me again.

  75. oldfart wrote, “it will keep Robert Pogson cheapskate well supplied with software he does not have to pay for”.

    Does it annoy oldfart that I can breathe clean air here without payment? There is zero probability of me taking up musical composition.

  76. oldfart says:

    “Basically the area Oldfart choose as a hold up point turns out to be one of the areas where a person should be running a duel OS setup. Reality not everything can be done from 1 OS its the way the cookie crumbles.

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  77. oldfart says:

    “It’s oldfart who states he has no freedom of action. He must use that other OS to compose music…”

    Oh I have choice, I could spend more money on an apple computer running OS X and use the OS X versions of my software. Of course I would get far less for my money hardware wise. I figure that I would be looking at at least $1000.00 US additional cost.

    Care to help pay for the apple gear, eh?

  78. oiaohm says:

    Are developers of the open source product so stupid they can’t analyze the features of the commercial successful ones and just implement them properly?
    Not understanding the problem.

    Deaf Spy the problem here is not every feature a closed source program implements does the user in fact want or they may not want it implemented the same way.

    Take linuxsampler for example if you scroll down to the bottom of this page
    https://www.linuxsampler.org/sfz/
    You will find a list of sfz opcodes that are Linuxsampler unique. These were not copied from other closed source programs because the reality other closed source programs don’t have them or anything equal. This does lead to issue that some sfz sources don’t work properly in closed source play back solutions.

    The reality is open source is not attempting to copy closed source programs. Open source attempts for compatibility with closed source programs but that is where it ends. Every music production program has unique features.

    And why should Oldfart spend his time to help open source by designing features and doing testing, when he can use this time to compose music?
    Reality Oldfart might also find by using different applications that his solution is missing a feature or two as well. So its give and take.

    Some things are really annoying as well.
    http://www.hydrogen-music.org that is cross platform does not produce musicxml straight up. But you can go by Rosegarden under Linux and keep your comments and the like intact or you can do a MIDI covert to musicxml and lose your comments. Please note Rosegarden is mostly single platform application being Linux.

    Yes every year or 2 someone gets desperate enough and makes and attempts to make a Windows version of Rosegarden that never gets out of Alpha then give up. Problem Rosegarden internals are heavily connected to jackaudio that only works perfectly on Linux.

    Rosegarden is one of many programs on Linux that disprove the theory that if an Open Source application was popular enough it would be ported to Windows. The reality the technical differences on some are too huge to port to other platforms.

    Deaf Spy there are also some closed source music creation programs that perform better on Linux due to lower overheads of the Linux kernel in particular areas. So its not just FOSS software for a Music producing person to have a Linux machine. The reality is Windows, OS X and Linux kernels perform differently.

    Basically the area Oldfart choose as a hold up point turns out to be one of the areas where a person should be running a duel OS setup. Reality not everything can be done from 1 OS its the way the cookie crumbles.

  79. oldfart says:

    “Certainly. That would make the world a better place by sharing the joy of composition. ”

    And of course it will keep Robert Pogson cheapskate well supplied with software he does not have to pay for. Hypopcrite.

  80. oldfart says:

    “Personal software is not excuse…”

    You still owe me an apology for using 9/11 to make brownie points in a debate.

    I’m waiting…

  81. DrLoser wrote, “One who has no freedom of action? What, no freedom of action at all?”

    It’s oldfart who states he has no freedom of action. He must use that other OS to compose music… QED. That’s what lock-in is, no freedom of action. It’s still alive with some organizations stating publicly that they want to leave M$’s fold but find it too difficult to “interoperate” when what’s really happening is that they are enslaved by M$ and “partners”, deliberately.

  82. DrLoser wrote, “just about any female in Saudi or some of the more repressive Gulf states”.

    I know a little about that. Females in Saudi Arabia get a decent education and can become medical doctors, teachers, bankers etc. They may not legally be on par with Western counterparts but they are far from being slaves. During the first Gulf War, they were allowed to drive cars because many men were on active military duty. That will return sooner or later. The Saudis did have proper slaves in the 1960s. USA had slaves in the 1860s and still haven’t gotten over it. Saudi Arabia is progressing at a much greater rate despite all kinds of “conservative” resistance. Those old guys are dying off.

  83. Deaf Spy wrote, “why should Oldfart spend his time to help open source by designing features and doing testing, when he can use this time to compose music?”

    Certainly. That would make the world a better place by sharing the joy of composition. Consider the converse. Should Linus Torvalds and thousands of others not design features and test them for Linux? That’s just silly. The world needs software and can and does make its own.

  84. Deaf Spy says:

    If Oldfart had used the open source applications he may be able to list a list of issues. Yes these can be submitted as feature requests/bug reports. So open improves from the feed back over time.

    Are developers of the open source product so stupid they can’t analyze the features of the commercial successful ones and just implement them properly?

    And why should Oldfart spend his time to help open source by designing features and doing testing, when he can use this time to compose music?

  85. oiaohm says:

    Really Oldfart arguement is no better than a kid who will not eat broccoli who has never tasted it.

    If Oldfart had used the open source applications he may be able to list a list of issues. Yes these can be submitted as feature requests/bug reports. So open improves from the feed back over time.

    The reality the movement to open standard that has been worked on since the year 2000 really is starting to undermine all these arguments.

    Remember Oldfart first started off with the arguement that the Program was Windows Only. Turns out this is not true at all. As I fully well expected to be the case.

    Now its a industry that is heavily ruled by a single open standard. This now comes down to a person being overly picky. Its also like saying I will not put in a nail because the hammer has the wrong brand on it.

  86. oiaohm says:

    Oldfart
    No, This is bullshit. Its my personal software remember.
    No what you are doing is Bullshit. You were most likely not aware Sibelius. Sibelius is in fact the number 1 application for do what you are talking about.

    Personal software is not excuse for failing to notice if you have don’t have export capability. Midi files nice don’t include a lot of extra information. MusicXML was made for a very important set of reasons.

    http://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/dolet-6-plugin-for-finale/
    Now I bet you did not know this third party was available. Current Sibelius you don’t need an extra plugin to write the standard. Finale you have to add the plugin.

    The fact is you should have bit my head off over that point if you really knew Finale to use in a production environment.

    Now Oldfart all the good tools now basically use 1 universal standard.

    Garritan sounds available Windows, OS X straight up. Linux with some hacking.

    The reality here is you can use more software to get the results you want if you use Windows and Linux or OS X and Linux you can access the most music tools.

    Just because the application you like does not work under Linux this is not always the end of story. Your data works as long as you are using your tools in standard conforming ways.

    Reality is in more and more of these industries it does matter what you use many more. This case you are writing music the fileformat you want musicxml. You can use rosegarden or any other musicxml tool you can choose to finish in what ever tool gets the results.

    What to say finale is producing the best result every time. Oldfart you don’t have its competition.

    The story here do your job properly and you will not be platform locked to windows. If you had to operate in Linux alone you might suffer a little. Worse is you use Linux alone and you find out for some reason its better. If you have not use the Linux side how would you know.

  87. oldfart says:

    “This is disaster prevention.”

    No, This is bullshit. Its my personal software remember.

  88. oiaohm says:

    Sibelius has a history of working under wine but sometimes being a pain to get installed and working correctly.

    Standard file format Sibelius saves in means worse case don’t have OS X or Windows you can at least get your work open with rosegarden or one of the many other Open source programs that read MusicXML.

    This is disaster prevention.

  89. oiaohm says:

    oldfart IT Officer is military term not commercial sector. This should kinda tell you what sector I come from.

    oldfart I am not going to say sorry over my 9/11 comments at all. What is the point of theirs deaths if we don’t learn from it. Many lessons.
    1) 9/11 happens because of CIA stupidly appointing abusive dictators in many countries.
    2) 9/11 comes because the CIA was not very selecting in who they trained.
    3) USA people care more about revenge than facts and respecting the lose to make sure it never happens again.

    I have never seen the USA say sorry for the Million odd people the dictator the CIA put into power in Iran killed. 3000 deaths is nothing compared to the number of deaths that caused people to be enraged bad enough todo the attack. In fact its 8000 deaths total when you add in the damage that happened around the world because of it. Of course USA people only care about USA people not the other people in other countries killed because of it. Yes a case that I should respect your dead but you don’t respect mine. Double standards is a huge problem.

    finale is an Windows/OS X program.
    http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/resources/system-requirements/
    Oldfart did not read the system requirements. This is the reality a majority of programs are cross platform. Maybe not to Linux. When someone says Windows only is extremely rare for that to be the case.
    https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=454

    Just to top things off what version of Finale do you have. Its not 100 percent not Linux supported.

    All the http://www.garritan.com is duel platform. Windows/OS X again.
    Symphonic-Choirs is also Duel platform.

    All of them have part support under Wine on Linux.

    Nothing Oldfart listed in fact says he has to run Windows.
    Here he even admits it.
    I use the windows platform version instead of the OS X versions because it is cheaper. I have as much a right to my choices as you do yours.

    Oldfart Widnows only is extremely rare. But Linux only is not that rare. Rosegarden is Linux alternative to Finale problem its it only for Linux.

    I would 100 percent bet that Oldfart has never used Rosegarden. Its quite a interesting bit of software.

    The big problem with Finale is it name says it. It is designed as a dead end program. Most Open source programs have at least 1 export format to allow you to take what you have worked on to another program and add something.

    Work done under Rosegarden in musicxml can be taken to Finale.

    The annoy part here is if you want access to everything as a music creator you have install Sibelius and Finale? Sibelius gives you access to Avid library and Finale give you access to the Garritan library. Interesting enough no open source gets around this problem.

    https://www.linuxsampler.org/ this can in fact use the Garritan libraries. This does run windows and OS X. You install Sibelius with Linuxsampler and you can have Avid and Garritan under 1 application.

    Sibelius is also not a dead end application it takes MusicXML in and MusicXML out. So Sibelius can multi tool. This is one of the funny cases Finale is not exactly as good as its hype. Rosegarden and Sibelius work very good with each other.

    Reality here oldfart does not even know how to choose the right software.

  90. DrLoser says:

    Does Winnipeg have an “elite,” out of interest, or did you plough them all under using a borrowed PRC tractor, Robert?
    Maybe that’s a topic for a future column. Let’s all pray that the welding holds out.

  91. DrLoser says:

    Anyway. About that fiftieth reason? It appears to have disappeared, doesn’t it?

    Only forty-nine more episodes of ancient futility to go. Still, it keeps the completely slavery-free middle-aged Russian ladies on the right-hand side of your site gainfully occupied, no doubt in some profitable way that will God forbid never enrich the “elite” of Redmond.

    “Elite?”

  92. DrLoser says:

    If you had to pick between child slaves on a West African cocoa farm, female slaves in European prostitution rings, just about any female in Saudi or some of the more repressive Gulf states, various co-opted minorities in Myanmar, gang-master immigrant slaves in (say) Morecambe Bay (the Western World!), or that seriously worrying one or two billion people who pay Microsoft $50 to use their software and then forget about it, Robert …

    … Which one would you pick as the first subject of a United Nations commission on the subject of slavery?

    No, wait. Forget I even bothered to ask that question. It’s slowly parboiled frogs. Your answer is always going to be slowly parboiled frogs, isn’t it?

  93. DrLoser says:

    And as demonstrated by the good doctor, it’s also a load of self serving bullshit.

    Incorrect, oldfart. I never claimed that it is a load of self serving bullshit.

    I merely hoped to demonstrate that it is complete bullshit.

    Whether or not it is “self serving” is of no possible consequence, outside the tiny little world inhabited by most proponents of the Four Freedoms, who have never even once “examined and modified the code.”

    Even though, for some unaccountable reason, they seem to find this an incredibly important part of the Credo.

    I wonder why. If it’s that important, why doesn’t everybody do it?

    Slavery by inadequacy, I suspect.

  94. DrLoser says:

    Although, when dealing with a small-town snake-oil salesman, it’s hard to beat the following advice:

    Unter allem Diebesgesindel sind die Narren die schlimmsten. Sie rauben euch beides, Zeit und Stimmung.

    Very wise, that. I believe I shall follow the good Wolfgang Johan von G and bid you a pleasant crepuscular farewell, young Dougster.

  95. DrLoser says:

    In addition to that, I find the following observation by a privileged late Eighteenth Century German quite compelling and even relevant today:

    Wer nicht vorwärts geht, der kommt zurücke.

    systemd, anybody?

  96. DrLoser says:

    “None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsely believe they are free.”

    Ah, you old late Eighteenth-Century German Romantic you, Dougie! I suppose it helps, though, if you are ennobled by the Duke of Saxe-Coburg at the age of 25.

    Bit difficult to be “enslaved” when you’re a German nobleman, isn’t it? At a very wild guess indeed, you can probably afford the $50 for a proper operating system. Why, with a good enough education (evidently remiss in Easterville), you might even learn how to dual-boot!

    Me, I prefer the following:

    Was glänzt, ist für den Augenblick geboren,
    Das Echte bleibt der Nachwelt unverloren.

    But that’s because I’m far more intelligent than you are, Dougie. And what’s more, unlike you, I have the certificates to prove it.

    Not to mention the ability to understand what I read in more than zero languages.

  97. oldfart says:

    “That’s the ultimate slavery, when the slave-master doesn’t have to keep the slaves in cages.”

    And as demonstrated by the good doctor, it’s also a load of self serving bullshit.

  98. oldfart says:

    “None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsely believe they are free.”

    FOSS does that to you , you know.

  99. dougman says:

    “None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsely believe they are free.”

  100. DrLoser says:

    Slave: “A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.”

    1. Bondage? What bondage? QED for the opposition, Robert.
    2. Wholly subject to the will of another? Wholly subject in what way? QED for the opposition, Robert.
    3. Held as a chattel? Held as a what? QED for the opposition, Robert.
    4. One who has no freedom of action? What, no freedom of action at all? QED for the opposition, Robert.
    5. One whose person is wholly under the control of another? Tin-foil hat time.. QED for the opposition, Robert.
    6. One whose actions are wholly under the control of another? Double-strength tin-foil.. QED for the opposition, Robert.

    I must say, that’s quite an impressive display of completely failing to justify your assertion, Robert. And it’s still astonishing that you don’t seem to care about anybody who actually falls under any one of those six headings.

    You’re not Humpty Dumpty, Robert: words have a meaning independent of whatever echo you hear inside your head when you read them. As, amply, demonstrated by your Websters quote in this instance.

  101. oldfart wrote, “Get over your “slave” Bullshit!”

    See How to Get Your Platform Accepted as a Standard – Microsoft Style: “ISVs are just pawns in the struggle but have you ever tried to win a chess game without any pawns?”

    Those are M$’s terms, not mine. Pawn, synonym, slave…. QED.

    Folks can deny history, but it’s out there. M$ deliberately chose to enslave people and largely succeeded. Slave: “A person who is held in bondage to another; one who is wholly subject to the will of another; one who is held as a chattel; one who has no freedom of action, but whose person and services are wholly under the control of another.
    [1913 Webster]”

    Isn’t a person who feels they must pay M$ to use the hardware they own a slave? Isn’t the person who feels they have no choice but to use M$’s software a slave? Isn’t the person who feels that malware, re-re-reboots, forced obsolescence in IT, lock-in etc. are normal a slave? I think so. They are owned by M$ and have no freedom of action not through force applied to them but the utter destruction of their free will. That’s the ultimate slavery, when the slave-master doesn’t have to keep the slaves in cages.

  102. oldfart says:

    “I’m retired. I have the time. It’s fun. Get over it.”

    And I’m an Amateur Composer who doesn’t have a lot of time to compose. Its important to me. I use commercial software based on that gets the job done. I use the windows platform version instead of the OS X versions because it is cheaper. I have as much a right to my choices as you do yours.

    Get over your “slave” Bullshit!

    Because in the end that’s all it is… Bullshit.

  103. DrLoser wrote, “you need to have a better argument on slavery than that if you’re going to be even remotely credible on the subject”

    Well, thanks to SEC, we can quantify M$’s slavery. Revenue for the client division is ~few $billion per quarter. The worst slave-masters of history killed slaves to keep them in line but M$ has slaves so dedicated to survival that they pay M$ not to beat them. Some of the greatest slave-masters of history accounted carefully for all their slaves to document their grandeur. Surely M$ is an outlier.

  104. DrLoser wrote, “an inexplicable desire to get high by spinning up a new point release of the Linux kernel every two weeks”.

    It’s a good way to keep up with the latest features and bug-fixes. Are you suggesting one should not update software that folks know has bugs? I pay particular attention to certain features: some particular drivers on which my system depends, KVM, suspend/resume which I use occasionally, ext* file-systems, jfs (rather mature…), EDAC, and other devices found on Beast. I like to follow the evolution of Linux re new features and tweaks to old ones. I could get some of that by reading ChangeLogs but I like to actually use the stuff too. Currently, Linux 3.18+ has a bug that affects my gigabit/s NIC. I’ve seen the error message just a couple of times but guys with busy systems see it a lot. By building a long-term-support kernel, I will be sure to get the fix ASAP. I’m retired. I have the time. It’s fun. Get over it.

  105. DrLoser wrote, “people in northern Manitoba will start demanding teachers who actually have a professional qualification in the field”.

    It has been a requirement to have a valid teaching certificate as long as I have been in the game. I was first issued a teaching certificate in 1978 after studies at University of Manitoba.

  106. DrLoser wrote, “you genuinely cannot get those results any other way”.

    That is absolute nonsense. “Toy Story” was created without any of that software. Pixar did not let the absence of shrink-wrapped software stop them from creating. They used GNU/Linux since 2003 but ran a UNIX operating system in 1995. They had no need of that other OS.

  107. DrLoser says:

    On an uncontroversial side note, apparently Webster’s 1913 has no definition for “elite.”

    I imagine that might come as some surprise to those of the era who had to deal with various Robber Barons and so on. Isn’t it nice that Robert has provided us with a modern, functional, definition of “elite?”

    I speak proleptically, of course.

  108. DrLoser says:

    Not only are none of them twelve-foot tall baby-eating lizards who adhere fanatically to certain “protocols”…

    To be truthful, one of them was.

    But I’m bound by the Official Secrets Act. I can’t tell you which one.

    (Watch out for the blue frills just below the neck, though.)

  109. DrLoser says:

    Not only are none of them twelve-foot tall baby-eating lizards who adhere fanatically to certain “protocols” we need not name here and are whisked from place to place via Black Helicopters …

    To be scrupulously fair, I never visited any of my work mates at home.

    Now you’ve got me thinking. That was rather remiss of me, wasn’t it? I mean, a helicopter pad in South Croydon would pretty much give the game away, wouldn’t it?

  110. DrLoser says:

    “Software made by some elite?”

    I’ve worked with these guys, Robert. Not only are none of them twelve-foot tall baby-eating lizards who adhere fanatically to certain “protocols” we need not name here and are whisked from place to place via Black Helicopters …

    … I’m not even sure I’d describe them as “elite” anything. Just better-than-average programmers in an environment that is conducive to building, testing and delivering software products that are used by hundreds of millions of people around the world on a daily basis.

    There are, of course, other ways to do this. Take Google, for example. The entire corporation is rotten from head to foot with pond-scum — you won’t find a single “elite” programmer there. But they still seem to churn out professional product.

    “Elite?” As in “Privileged?” As in Secretively in control of the world?

    Sounds just the teeniest bit nutty, doesn’t it, Robert?

  111. DrLoser says:

    All that totally misses the whole point of Free Software. The world can and does make its own software at the lowest cost and the greatest performance. There is no need to use software made by some elite and offered at outrageous prices and with outrageous restrictions on usage.

    Are you absolutely certain that this is going to fit on a t-shirt, Robert?

    The Four Freedoms do not specify either “lowest cost” or “greatest performance.” In fact, they don’t mention “performance” even once.

    One can either accept the Four Freedoms, as you do, Robert, on the basis that you implicitly get a cost of zero. Or one can reject them, on the grounds that you are prepared to pay more than zero.

    Performance, I am afraid, doesn’t enter into the equation. Neither does this much-touted “ability to examine and modify the code,” because (as I pointed out earlier) practically none of the touts actually do this. Not you, not Dougie, not oiaohm, not oe, not lpbear.

    Of course, it’s always super-friendly if some other kind soul can be cajoled into doing it for you … but TBH I don’t really see the difference between a Debian maintainer doing that and a Microsoftie doing it.

    Except that the Microsoftie is a highly-skilled professional doing it in a thoroughly professional environment with all the professional testing tools available for a professional company that sells and supports a professional product to corporate and other customers who demand a professional result.

    (Which sometimes, as with oldfart’s example of composition software, involves incomparably greater performance. As in, you genuinely cannot get those results any other way.)

    What an awful concept. Paying people to do their job. Next thing you know, people in northern Manitoba will start demanding teachers who actually have a professional qualification in the field!

  112. DrLoser says:

    It just occurred to me that this is the same term drug-addicts and smokers use, “give it up”… Those folks feel they can’t live without it even though it’s killing them. Perhaps software is not so lethal but it sure is addictive.

    As in, an inexplicable desire to get high by spinning up a new point release of the Linux kernel every two weeks, Robert?

    There are many forms of software addiction. I don’t begrudge you yours, pointless and time-consuming as yours is. Please don’t begrudge me mine, money-earning and time-saving as mine is.

    Incidentally, if you’re going to make a Bold Powerful Statement to the effect that “Software Addiction Kills!” … it’s best not to follow that statement immediately with “but perhaps not.”

    Because that just makes the entire comparison sound like what it is. A feeble waste of space.

  113. DrLoser says:

    There’s nothing wrong with being able to compose music your way but there is something wrong with doing it M$’s way.

    I take it you never listen to Mozart then. (Sponsored by Emperor Josef II amongst others — the slave!)

    Or to Beethoven. (Toadied up to Napoleon Buonaparte — the slave!)
    I’d advise against listening to anything involving the Vienna Philharmonic, who have a very dubious record on equal opportunities. (Amongst certain other historical curiosities from the period 1938-1945, which lingered on well into the ’60s and ’70s.)

    Your definition of “slavery” is quite remarkably constrained, isn’t it? Eating chocolate? I’m not going to concern myself with documented slavery on cocoa farms in West Africa. Wearing cotton? I’m not going to concern myself with documented slavery in Khazakhstan, amongst other places. I don’t suppose you’ve even troubled yourself to research the employment conditions of Chinese workers who produce your favourite “thin clients,” not that you actually ever buy a thin client because you’d rather “repurpose” a Pentium III.

    Actual slavery doesn’t bother you a bit, does it? It only really matters when coughing up $50 to a specific corporation.

    And it’s not even you who are coughing up the $50!

    Well, gee, many thanks, O Calvin of The Frozen North, but you need to have a better argument on slavery than that if you’re going to be even remotely credible on the subject.

  114. oldfart wrote, “you who likes to bask in the warm glow will in the end have three choices”.

    All that totally misses the whole point of Free Software. The world can and does make its own software at the lowest cost and the greatest performance. There is no need to use software made by some elite and offered at outrageous prices and with outrageous restrictions on usage. Every year more people are choosing Free Software, at first to run on that other OS but now more are seeing that other OS as unnecessary complexity and cost of IT. Android/Linux showed that. GNU/Linux is making its move now too. It’s all good.

  115. oldfart says:

    Robert Pogson expelled electronically out a lot of verbal diarrhea that ended as follows:

    “You’ve invited the drug dealer of IT into the parking lots of schools. You’ve invited authours of software you like to be complicit. You’ve belaboured M$’s victims with epithets of inferiority. You’ve persuaded others to become M$’s slaves. Shame.”

    Are you for real? You are a cheapskate who thinks that because a group of idealists gave you what appears to be an out from ever having to pay for software that you use that you are somehow morally superior. What a load! All you have ever cared about is squeezing the eagle off the quarter – the rest is IMHO window dressing!

    I look forward to the day when the business people who actually pay for the continued maintenance of key pieces of FOSS software encourage the transformation of linux from a half baked system into a full enterprise product, centrally managed and maintainable, all in spite of the likes of moochers like you who whining about improvements like systemd. systemd is the tip of the iceberg Robert Pogson, and you who likes to bask in the warm glow will in the end have three choices

    1) Accept what you are given and adapt top it, because beggars can’t be choosers.
    2) Tie yourself to one of the inevitable fork of Linux that will follow, and put up with being in an increasing backwater as the inevitable drift between commercial and hobbyist leads developers to choose between environments – two guesses as to what they will choose.
    3) maintain your own copies of source code for all the applications that you use. You like you 4 freedoms, exercise them! Go to it!

    As someone who basks in that warm glow, you really have no other choice.

    Because remember…

    Beggars can’t be choosers.

    As it turns out all of the software that I care about personally

  116. oldfart wrote, “Your concept is of freedom from having to pay for your software. My concept is the freedom of being able to compose my music.”

    There’s nothing wrong with being able to compose music your way but there is something wrong with doing it M$’s way. M$ intends you to be a slave and you are complying, aiding and abetting the slave-master. Taking the system as a whole: M$, the authours of your favourite musical software, the manufacturer of your hardware, and you, who is without merit in the process? M$. They decided to enslave the world when they saw that IT with personal computers was the way forward. They didn’t decide to produce the best product at the lowest price. Instead they decided to drive all competition from the market by fair means and foul and you, who know better, fell for it. You’ve invited the drug dealer of IT into the parking lots of schools. You’ve invited authours of software you like to be complicit. You’ve belaboured M$’s victims with epithets of inferiority. You’ve persuaded others to become M$’s slaves. Shame.

  117. oldfart says:

    “I’ve met a lot of people who felt they had not given up anything but malware, re-re-reboots, slowing down, etc. when they switched to GNU/Linux.”

    Again with the insulting imagery. Do you actually believe that someone is going listen to you when you continue to insist on insulting them.

    More importantly, Did you actually even bother to look at finale, and notice what it does? Had you done so, you would have noticed that it is professional grade music notation software that also has the ability of using external memory based synthesizers to render a (IMHO) very realistic playback of the music that is entered.
    Even someone as musically illiterate as you seem to be would have figured out that to recommend something like Musescore (http://musescore.org) would have been more appropriate than Ardour.

    But more importantly, you do not seem to have figured out the most important reason why your suggestion is not only a non starter for me, but in general for most other people who use any software on a computer beyond web browsers, email packages and various content consumption tools – that you are telling someone that the price of freedom is to go from a state of simply using a piece of software that simply and directly allows them to do what they bought the computer for in the first place to quite literally having to stop doing what they want to do while they figure out how to integrate a jumbled set of half solutions and work-a rounds together so that they can then get on with the task at hand.

    There was a time when the software that I had now did not exist, when I actually did take up compiler and even assembler in an attempt to patch together out of what existed at the time software wise a solution for composing and playing back music that I dreamed of. But once that software became available commercially I very happily put away my compiler and got on with the task of composing, for in the end, I am a composer not a programmer when it comes to music making.

    It would appear that you and I have very different concepts of freedom. Your concept is of freedom from having to pay for your software. My concept is the freedom of being able to compose my music. In my case, I am willing to pay for the cost to be able to use and continue to use that software as I have over the past 25+ years – the cost always been to me reasonable and the terms of lease acceptable. You on the other hand would be willing to expend your time and effort cobbling together the software you use to avoid what you call “slavery”

    Were you honest about your answer, you would have continued to talk of the so called “freedom” that I would have by replacing doing with tinkering. Instead you did gave a to put it bluntly half-assed response that showed more contempt than concern.

    For what it is worth, this answer than more than anything has cost you whatever respect that I still had for what you have described as having done providing IT underfunded native schools in the far north of Canada. But I know as a person who likes to think for himself, you could care less about that fact.

    So if running windows OS my desktop computer so that I can be able use the software that I have no trouble paying for and maintaining, makes me a slave, so be it.

    Better to be a productive slave than to be a cheapskate enslaved by his own attitude towards money, for that, in the end in spite all of the baloney that you spew, is what comes through loud and clear.

  118. oldfart says:

    correction:
    In fact, asshole, I do NOT owe you, a both proven and admitted liar and fraud, an answer for anything.

  119. oldfart wrote, “I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?”

    It just occurred to me that this is the same term drug-addicts and smokers use, “give it up”… Those folks feel they can’t live without it even though it’s killing them. Perhaps software is not so lethal but it sure is addictive. I’ve met a lot of people who felt they had not given up anything but malware, re-re-reboots, slowing down, etc. when they switched to GNU/Linux. It’s perception v reality. The reality is that folks can live with GNU/Linux and it’s good for them, unlike that other OS. Software designed to work rather than software designed to enrich the pushers is better software and the right way to do IT. That’s why I recommend Debian GNU/Linux.

  120. oldfart says:

    “oldfart the first problem here is you say Windows Only. Now if you said Windows and OS X only I would not be arguing as much. In a disaster you will most likely be able to get you hands on one or the other. Not as vendor locked in supply.”

    Where did I say windows only? Did you notice the word “happens” in what I said sir. Did you notice the context of the question to Robert Pogson, which had nothing to do with what you were going on about? The question has NOTHING to do with my professional choices of software, nor does it have anything to do with the business continuity capabilities of software set that I use and support!

    “Oldfart you put yourself off as a IT officer running networks.”

    No, it is YOU who keep referring to me by the strange label of “IT officer “, a label I might add that I have NEVER heard used by ANYONE in a professional context. Had you actually paid attention to what I have said You would know that I am a senior IT person in a team in an IT department that supports enterprise LOB applications.

    “So first presume is enterprise usage unless you say other wise. You never set contexts then when things go wrong you then say o that was a enterprise question or o that was a personal usage question. I am sick of that stunt Oldfart.”

    And I am sick you your butting in to conversations that you are not a party to with huge streams of bullshit that may only be tangentially relevant to what is discussed. It is not my problem that you decide to make assumptions that turn out wrong, and the start whining when it turns out that you are barking up the wrong tree. It is not my responsibility to help you figure out what I am talking about when I am not talking to you in the first place.

    In fact, asshole, I owe you, a both proven and admitted liar and fraud, an answer for anything.

    ““belittling the experience.” I am not belittling the experience the problem here is being too close. The shock and pain of the experence means you don’t want to relive it so you have not spent the resources or the time studying the cold hard facts of why companies died at 9/11.”

    I guess that this constitutes as close as you can get to an apology for having overstepped in your zeal for making brownie points in a debate. A debate, I might add that means NOTHING in the bigger context that the tragedy that I lived through is.
    The real problem here is that you still haven’t figured out that you need to before continuing to make any further comments is to make a simple direct apology for your inappropriate use of the 9/11 tragedy.

    And I expect a simple direct apology from you is we are to continue any part of the conversation that you were not a part of in the first place.

  121. oiaohm says:

    “If an application that has proven to save me time and effort Happens to only be available on windows, And I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?”

    oldfart the first problem here is you say Windows Only. Now if you said Windows and OS X only I would not be arguing as much. In a disaster you will most likely be able to get you hands on one or the other. Not as vendor locked in supply.

    A single platform bit of software the question is should you even be using it in the first place. Forget the move to Linux bit. Lot of cases it turns other there is equal software that is multi platform. Lot of cases the a different bit of software will provide the same benefit in performance and at least be duel platform.

    MS Office that is for OS X, Windows and Android these days. Ok the android and OS X versions are not perfect but you would be able to get by.

    What I read is a legitimate question about personal software use.
    This is not what I read. I read a question about software usage. Oldfart you put yourself off as a IT officer running networks. So first presume is enterprise usage unless you say other wise. You never set contexts then when things go wrong you then say o that was a enterprise question or o that was a personal usage question. I am sick of that stunt Oldfart.

    Even personal usage being stuck to 1 platform is a risk. This is a personal usage example you have a backup your computer crashes you go over to a friends place and find they only have OS X now what are you going todo.

    Mono platform no matter how you attempt to dig you way out Oldfart is almost always wrong. Ok multi platform not including Linux desktop is at least workable in a disaster event.

    “belittling the experience.” I am not belittling the experience the problem here is being too close. The shock and pain of the experence means you don’t want to relive it so you have not spent the resources or the time studying the cold hard facts of why companies died at 9/11.

    Having an experience and learning from it are two different things. I have experience of the long reaching effects of 9/11 you had experience of the close up effects. Between us we experience it all.

  122. oldfart says:

    “oldfart how would you feel if next time it the company where you are that gets destroyed and it fails causing hundreds of deaths. Software selection turns out to be a life or death mater.”

    The way that I feel now – that an asshole who is a proven liar and fraud is STILL trying to get brownie points in a debate by using a tragedy that I was a part of, an asshole who then added insult to injury by belittling the experience.

    “If this was true you would not have been suggesting Windows only software or if you did you would have said for a non important role. Remember 5 to 10 percent of you staffs computers are most likely going to be OS X. Or in the case of google 30+ percent. ”

    Lets take a look at the comment that you picked on…

    “If an application that has proven to save me time and effort Happens to only be available on windows, And I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?”

    What I read is a legitimate question about personal software use. Show me where it actually says anything like what you are going on about? You can’t, can you asshole!

    As far as all of your other verbal diarrhea is concerned, I have no intention of responding to it – you are in no position to deserve the respect of an answer, asshole!

  123. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser here is some bad numbers. Aprox 3000 people died at the towers but the over all global death count from 9/11 is aprox 8000 people. Out of the extra 5000 85% of those deaths would have been prevented by companies in the towers having better disaster planning include tighter conditions on software acquirement and usage.

    In the towers their was a health insurance company they were under where the aircraft hit. 100 percent of their staff got out. They were obeyed HIPAA/HITECH. They where one of the ones to fail due to not being able to get access to their data. This cost lives. Sorry Oldfart saying that you are covered under those two does not mean I will trust you. Real world examples say I should not particularly if you are saying particular things.

    Suicides and people not having money for medial make up the other 5000 effected.

    As far as disaster recovery/business continuity is concerned, asshole, we are fully prepared, both hardware wise and software wise.
    If this was true you would not have been suggesting Windows only software or if you did you would have said for a non important role. Remember 5 to 10 percent of you staffs computers are most likely going to be OS X. Or in the case of google 30+ percent.

    Oldfart you might want to call me a asshole the problem here is you are being an asshole without the backing of facts. Many disaster recovery plans failed for companies after 9/11 even companies that had lost zero staff.

    There are very few real world tests of disaster recovery plans to the scale of 9/11. So when one of these happen you should study what caused the failures.

    Mono platform applications is one of the major hazards 9/11 shows. Also licensing limitations was another.

    oldfart how would you feel if next time it the company where you are that gets destroyed and it fails causing hundreds of deaths. Software selection turns out to be a life or death mater.

  124. DrLoser says:

    On mature reflection, I’m going for “despicable.”

  125. DrLoser says:

    No, wait, Fifi. “Utterly contemptible?”

    With the invaluable assistance of Robert’s favourite Edwardian-era dictionary, I can expand that accusation to what I feel is a close approximation to your sordid and disgusting bleats of self-interest. Here we go with the Thesaurus stuff for contemptible:

    Syn. — Despicable; abject; vile; mean; base; paltry; worthless; sorry; pitiful; scurrile. See Contemptuous. — Contemptible, Despicable, Pitiful, Paltry. Despicable is stronger than contemptible, as despise is stronger than contemn. It implies keen disapprobation, with a mixture of anger. A man is despicable chiefly for low actions which mark his life, such as servility, baseness, or mean adulation. A man is contemptible for mean qualities which distinguish his character, especially those which show him to be weak, foolish, or worthless. Treachery is despicable, egotism is contemptible. Pitiful and paltry are applied to cases which are beneath anger, and are simply contemptible in a high degree.

    That about sums it up, I think, Fifi.

  126. DrLoser says:

    oldfart you might have been there. But I was working for one of the companies in the twin towers itself. I lost that contract because they went under due to the fact they could not restore their operations soon enough. Main reason they went under yes they had backups but they did not have the software to access the data.

    And roughly three thousand people died.

    But that’s not nearly as important as the putative fact that a not-very-well organised outfit in northern NSW lost a contract because their data was buried in the rubble, is it, Fifi?

    You are utterly contemptible, Fifi.

  127. oldfart says:

    “oldfart you might have been there. But I was working for one of the companies in the twin towers itself. I lost that contract because they went under due to the fact they could not restore their operations soon enough. Main reason they went under yes they had backups but they did not have the software to access the data.”

    No only are you an admitted liar and fraud, but you are a blazing asshole. The comment that you have been going on about was referring to my personal desktop software choice. It had NOTHING to do with the software that I use at work.

    I am also not in the medical field, nor am I in a position to effect anyone’s lives. And even if I was, I would not recommending willy-nilly changing software and platforms just because you say so. As to how I can be covered under HIPAA/HITECH and not be in the medical field, Go do some googling to find out how because I have no intention of telling you how, asshole.

    As far as disaster recovery/business continuity is concerned, asshole, we are fully prepared, both hardware wise and software wise.

    “DrLoser when its case that Oldfart actions today and be endangering future peoples lives I have no reason to be nice at all.”

    You are a disgusting little man sir, who will say anything to win brownie points in a debate. The irony is that as a proven and admitted liar and fraud, no-one has any reason to believe anything that you have said or take anything that you have said seriously.

  128. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you might have been there. But I was working for one of the companies in the twin towers itself. I lost that contract because they went under due to the fact they could not restore their operations soon enough. Main reason they went under yes they had backups but they did not have the software to access the data.

    oldfart or DrLoser how would you like to trade places with me who knows 9 people who could not take the loss of job because of who took their own life. They did not die at 9/11 they are the after effect. None of them saw 9/11 directly. Yet I know staff that own to other business who core businesses were in the towers who are alive and well. Why the businesses they depend on did not fail.

    Most people who were in the city who were in business who were not in fact in the towers learnt bugger all.

    Just because you see a disaster does not mean you learn from it.

    There was a big IT lesson in 9/11 oldfart never learnt it.

    Surely even YOU are not capable of being so completely obnoxious and disgusting as that statement implies?
    DrLoser when its case that Oldfart actions today and be endangering future peoples lives I have no reason to be nice at all.

  129. DrLoser wrote, “how is that two year old project on rewriting GEBC (a largely unused bit of FLOSS ballistic software) into an Internet-friendly Pascal based equivalent going?”

    Right on schedule. I’ve re-examined the code and will commence another rewrite this week, I expect. It should be totally revised in a couple of weeks. The only difficulties I foresee are writing some of the internal comments/analyzing the semantics of the existing code. I will concentrate on the internal data-structure and numerical algorithms. They are far from optimal and not well documented. The result will be much more efficient and compact and amenable to using to create a web-app, the final phase. At some later point, I will merge this code with a reloading database so the connection between rifle, load and ballistics will be complete. I don’t plan on making a career of this project and I expect that will be the last work I do on it but it should be generally useful to others whether or not they code in PASCAL.

  130. DrLoser says:

    If you have already paid to support and download Ardour, jump to the download page now…

    Or, if you’re the sort of cheapskate who just wants to record the sound of slowly parboiled frogs? No need to worry yourself about financially supporting a bit of half-baked software!

    That’s so gonna work, Robert.

  131. DrLoser says:

    I’m sure a creative person could figure out how to use that with Ardour, for example.

    I’m equally sure that you couldn’t, Robert.

    By the way, how is that two year old project on rewriting GEBC (a largely unused bit of FLOSS ballistic software) into an Internet-friendly Pascal based equivalent going?

    I don’t wish to discourage you on that excellent venture, Robert, but we have to be honest. It’s taken you two whole years so far, and no results are evident so far.

    Why, should you be so inclined, and had you stumped up the fee for professional compositional software, you could probably have written at least four symphonies for the ages by now. I mean, that’s what Robert Schumann managed.

    But, given that your professional musical experience appears to be translating the screams of slowly parboiled frogs via a Fourier Transform … I’d imagine that your potential audience is, in this respect if no other, very limited indeed.

  132. DrLoser says:

    Actually the one thing that I learned from 9/11 as I passed the smoking hole that was the twin towers each day on my way to work for several weeks afterwas that people like the writer are simply not worth the effort it would take to teach them the error of their ways…

    Quoted for truth. And for empathy.

    Now, Mr Oiaohm. I’m going to ask you politely. Can you please stop hoisting other peoples’ catastrophic and personally devastating experiences into your own claims?

    It doesn’t have to be a Hitler/Godwin, you know. It doesn’t even have to be, say, the Peterloo massacre.

    The Holocaust (Jewish or Armenian or whatever) or 9/11 are emphatically not a field you want to mess with.

    I ask you again, humbly. Please make yourself a better person by not drawing invidious comparisons.

  133. DrLoser says:

    btw: “Excuses.”

    Those of us who know what we are talking about, or even know what language we are using, or even occasionally have recourse to a spell-checker, know the distinction, Fifi.

    But, no matter. “Excesses” is a pretty good description of every last one of your rather silly and pointless posts on every site I can think of over the last seven or so years.

  134. DrLoser says:

    I personally believe that some of this problem is people like oldfart being in positions who straight up come up with excesses not to trust open source then blindly trust closed source.

    What, you mean a man who openly admits that he uses a massive amount of Red Hat stuff in his everyday job, Fifi?

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

  135. oldfart says:

    “Surely even YOU are not capable of being so completely obnoxious and disgusting as that statement implies?”

    I fear that the writer of the line that you quote did not have the benefit of the front row seat that I had that day, Complete with people visible jumping off the building to their death. and of course not to be missed was watching the second tower crumble from less than 1 mile away.

    Actually the one thing that I learned from 9/11 as I passed the smoking hole that was the twin towers each day on my way to work for several weeks afterwas that people like the writer are simply not worth the effort it would take to teach them the error of their ways…

  136. DrLoser says:

    It’s interesting that in my later years I met students who had used GNU/Linux before they met me. I’m not alone.

    You’re certainly not alone, Robert. Why, you haven’t even reached your dotage yet, and long may that state of affairs last!

    The only slight problem with this argument of yours, since circa 1992, is that you have, as you say, met a whole bunch of people who have used Linux, GNU or otherwise.

    I’m one of them. I’ve used it for several years in a professional capacity.

    And it sucks.

  137. DrLoser says:

    This really says oldfart has got nothing from 9/11.

    I am going to wipe the vomit off my table top and ask you, kindly, to explain that particular brain-fart, oiaohm.

    Surely even YOU are not capable of being so completely obnoxious and disgusting as that statement implies?

  138. DrLoser says:

    Once you have done so I would like for you to tell me why I am a slave for wanting to continue use this software, which allows me to compose for instrumental ensembles I no longer have access to as an amateur composer. If you wish you can to point out to me the FOSS equivalents to these and I will consider them, if I do not know of them.

    Nice try, oldfart, but Robert has no time for aspirations of professionalism. Quite the reverse, in fact. He is a True Amateur (Websters 1913):

    Am`a*teur” (#), n. [F., fr. L. amator lover, fr. amare to love.] A person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science as to music or painting; esp. one who cultivates any study or art, from taste or attachment, without pursuing it professionally.

    Actually, for all I know, Robert is tone deaf, but that isn’t important here.

    What is important is for Robert to impose his amateur beliefs on your (or anybody else’s) professional aspirations.

    The vital thing here is, you are not entitled to produce something for the enjoyment of the rest of the world, unless (naturally) you use only “found” items like bits of bark, dustbin lids, FLOSS software … that sort of stuff.

    And it doesn’t matter that you, personally, are never going to charge your audience for the privilege of listening to music that isn’t built on top of bits of bark, dustbin lids, FLOSS software …

    Because, if you entice your audience into second-hand slavery by introducing them to an otherwise enjoyable experience that is polluted by not being constructed on top of bits of bark, dustbin lids, and FLOSS software …

    You are forcing Poor Innocent People into the path of Second-Hand Slavery!

    It strikes me that Pog, on the evidence given via other columns here, has forced the underprivileged young citizens of the Frozen Canadian North into total misguided mathematical ineptitude, but, you know, one thing at a time.

    No More Musical Slavery!

  139. oldfart wrote his personal anecdote followed by, “If you wish you can to point out to me the FOSS equivalents to these and I will consider them, if I do not know of them.”

    Oh, I’m sure you can hack anything together with a little code and SOX. Sound is sound, a Fourier synthesis. There are also FLOSS samples available. I’m sure a creative person could figure out how to use that with Ardour, for example. Here’s a guy who wrote a programme to generate music. Good fun.

  140. oiaohm says:

    Basically oldfart your counter arguement against the Linux desktop should be dot points over security. Listing features that are truly missing.

    The non working screen lockers is 1. There are about 3 others. This is before you even get to software. Server does not have to run graphical so the nightmares of X11 don’t apply.

  141. oiaohm says:

    oldfart wrote, “If an application that has proven to save me time and effort Happens to only be available on windows, And I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?”

    This really says oldfart has got nothing from 9/11.

    There are a list of questions that come from businesses that lived and failed when 9/11 happened.

    1) Can company operate if this piece of software does not exist? If yes we can stop now. If no next question.
    2) Does the license allow installing on employee computers at no cost? (Reason after a 9/11 like event you may only have your employees computers and you may have no bank account access. )
    If no question 2.1 if yes question 3
    2.1) Is it reasonable to expect employee computers will have this software. If yes on to question 3. If no you are in trouble with a 9/11 event.
    3) Does this windows only software depend on Windows only services requiring Windows server license?
    ( Note its unlikely that employee computers will have enough server licenses and nothing says you will be able to access your volume licenses either.)
    If yes here you are in trouble in a 9/11 event. If no question 4.
    4) Have you tested software with cross-over/wine.
    (This question is more a formality for practical planning. If it runs under Wine and it kinda Windows only there is a good chance without extra licenses you could run it on a Linux or OS X machine if you had to.)

    Oldfart said accept the cost and lease what about the risks in case of disaster.

    This is all part of proper formal planning for disaster. Understanding how limited your computer supplies might be. Ok 9/11 was complete building dropping to ground but it equally could be a bio-hazard in a building that bad that you cannot enter it and electricity has had to be shutdown.

    IN many LOB applications either source code is available for customization or full API’s are provided.
    Do you know what the difference here is oldfart. Its a big one. The one that provides full source code you can run proper static program analysis the one that does not you are praying that the API to the closed program does not have hidden flaws in it that miss lead the static program analysis that something is safe when its not. Source code provides from security is way ahead since tools for finding code faults work better.

    Most of the source code provided has saner licenses in case of disaster. Like number of active copies instead of per machine licensing.

    Something to remember oldfart 2014 was a low year for Windows security flaws. A good year for windows is worse than a bad year for Linux.

    Now number of flaw arguments against Linux does not work. Lack of screen lockers that work to meet security requirements is a valid arguement against Linux Desktop at this stage. Mind you a lot of enterprises are going Android as it does have a working screen locker so meets their security requirements.

    Come on oldfart is such a simple yet correct counter arguement.

    Oldfart is a normally mixed up commercial guy. They hear we cannot use Linux due to security risks. Straight up think Linux has to have more flaws than Windows. The answer is no Linux does not have more flaws than Windows they just happen to be in nasty critical locations that make using Linux as a desktop impossible for a lot of businesses. Now if Oldfart knew the topic properly and argue it properly there would be no problem.

    Black and white arguement it is not. Security and software selection is many shades of grey. Risk to operations has to be assessed properly.

  142. DrLoser wrote, “What proportion of Windoze desktop/laptop purchasers will, at some point in the (say) five to seven years of EULA/hardware life, require simultaneous network connections into that desktop/laptop?”

    If you look at the typical school with no IT-person besides the Computer Teacher, likely they will have 30-100 PCs and NO SERVER. They will do file-sharing as a kind of database for the community of the school, teachers and students. They will share files, house images, video, etc. on the distributed resources of the school’s computers, index them all, and share an index of some kind all without paying a huge sum for a server and a server-licence from M$. That’s what the PCs are capable of doing, and what the software supports but the EULA from Hell does not.
    “You may permit a maximum of five (5) computers or other electronic devices (each a “Device”) to connect to the Workstation Computer to utilize one or more of the following services of the Software: File Services, Print Services, Internet Information Services, and remote access (including connection sharing and telephony services). The five connection maximum includes any indirect connections made through “multiplexing” or other software or hardware which pools or aggregates connections. This five connection maximum does not apply to any other uses of the Software. ”

    That’s from some early version of the EULA for XP. It rose to 15 or 20 later on, the slave-master beating the slaves less making them feel so good about being slaves. Well, many small schools cannot even understand the EULA and just go ahead and use it as they will until one of M$’s salesmen comes knocking to extort a server-licence. Many schools may not even have a server-room so the server might just sit idle in the building somewhere.

    GNU/Linux and the GPL just work for schools. They are the right way to do IT in education so schools can get on with the business of educating students instead of enriching rich people.

  143. DrLoser wrote, “Robert has shown literally dozens of entitlement-impaired students the way.”

    A lot of dozens. They typical high school in the North has about 150 students. My largest was 500 students K-12. I showed GNU/Linux to those 500 and they’re still running it today, 7 years later, so that’s nearly 1000, 83 dozen, just at one school. I really don’t know how many I’ve introduced but it must be several thousand all tolled. I have no idea what “entitlement-impaired” means. My students deserved the best and that was GNU/Linux. A few students resented that because they were used to that other OS but most liked that GNU/Linux made computers old or young snappy. We did many side–by-side tests of GNU/Linux v that other OS on identical hardware. We even unboxed that other OS and one student who was not particularly passionate about computers observed “It’s so slow!” with the appropriate facial expression of pain. They learned how to install GNU/Linux a bunch of ways and solved that problem. It’s interesting that in my later years I met students who had used GNU/Linux before they met me. I’m not alone.

  144. oldfart says:

    “You could avoid all that just by changing how you do things. That takes some effort but once that’s done, you are free again.”

    There is not much more to say Robert Pogson. But I would like you to consider
    something more. I am listing below URL’s to the software that I currently use personally to create music.

    http://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/
    http://www.garritan.com/products/personal-orchestra-4/
    http://www.garritan.com/products/concert-marching-band-2/
    http://www.garritan.com/products/harps/
    http://www.soundsonline.com/Symphonic-Choirs

    I would ask you to take the time to take a look at the specifications for this software, listen to examples of what other musicians professional and amateur create with this software. Once you have done so I would like for you to tell me why I am a slave for wanting to continue use this software, which allows me to compose for instrumental ensembles I no longer have access to as an amateur composer. If you wish you can to point out to me the FOSS equivalents to these and I will consider them, if I do not know of them.

    I await your response.

  145. DrLoser says:

    If an application that has proven to save me time and effort Happens to only be available on windows, And I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?

    Why do you persist in polluting the Friendly Community, oldfart? What is wrong with you?

    To FLOSS is Divine. To merely brush your teeth is Human. Although I personally recommend Crest.

    You and your Human Frailties, oldfart! Just because you need something, it doesn’t mean that you deserve it!

    I’ve never heard such a bunch of cheapskate “entitlement” crap. Go out there and suffer for the Cause! Robert can show you the way. Robert has shown literally dozens of entitlement-impaired students the way.

    Be a goatle, not a sheeple!

    Obviously, that would require God to be left-handed in terms of Ultimate Heavenly Entitlement, but there’s around a 10% chance of that. Which, you have to admit, is a better percentage than the Linux desktop is currently showing.

    One thing I wouldn’t recommend is to be a slowly parboiled frog. I have no idea what God thinks of such creatures, but I can assure you that Robert is very dangerous on the subject.

  146. DrLoser says:

    In the case of this site’s resident Gish Galloper (oioahm), Robert, I think it’s reasonable to pick a single point and reply to it. You, on the other hand, have a long and reasoned argument. I apologise for this, and I’m prepared to get back to every other part of it, but I think it’s worth considering your first statement on its own. Here we go then.

    If you think the cost of that other is $50, you are fooling yourself. What does it cost to limit your network connections to 10 or 20?

    That’s a very interesting question. I have absolutely no idea. Well, I do, sorta, but it’s not in the spirit of the question. My not very relevant answer is, nothing at all.

    Now, here’s the interesting question. And it’s a question that I have no answer for. And it’s a question that, quite possibly, Robert, you can shed light upon:

    What proportion of Windoze desktop/laptop purchasers will, at some point in the (say) five to seven years of EULA/hardware life, require simultaneous network connections into that desktop/laptop?

    I’m going to go out on a limb, just to offer a reference point for this argument.

    Bugger all.

    I might be wrong on that assumption.

    But, given the unusual circumstance that I am right, the actual cost of the license is still $50, network connections be damned.

    What was your point on this first sentence of yours, again?

  147. oldfart wrote, “just to save what amounts to $50.00 a year for an operating system” and “We also understand that if sometimes if you want to get certain functions you have to pay for that function and agree to the terms of sale, and we deem that cost as money well spent.”

    If you think the cost of that other is $50, you are fooling yourself. What does it cost to limit your network connections to 10 or 20? Even in a school, that is prohibitive. To “escape” that limitation, a school has to spend $thousands on a server running that other OS. That just makes no sense at all. What’s the cost of a re-re-reboot? I’ve only had to reboot for kernel upgrades for ages. With kernel modules, I can build a new module and upgrade a driver with no reboot. I can have yesterday’s kernel and yesterday’s driver for it instead of last year’s versions. That’s valuable. What does it cost to limit access to one user at a time? Perhaps nothing for you, but I’ve had the legal permission to have 20-50 users run desktop software on the same machine at the same time for a decade. That’s valuable. You are giving up a lot when you accept the EULA from Hell.

    The “functions” you get from a PC running that other OS are no different from the functions you get from a PC running GNU/Linux. It’s the hardware that does the work, the same hardware with either system. There may indeed be devices with no Linux driver but the vast majority are handled beautifully by Linux. Only a slave would pay twice to use the hardware he owns. Of course, some people buy homes and hire people to run them or buy tools and pay employees to use them, but most of us appreciate the freedom to be able to maximize the value of things we buy by using FREE $free software. M$ admits that. That’s why M$ is finally giving away its OS for $0 just to stay competitive. You should admit it too. You should consider why M$ gives software to some people but makes you pay… Is it because M$ knows you will pay even in your captivity and be a loyal slave? I think that’s so. We had a saying back on the farm, “You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.”. I think that applies to slaves too. Some slaves just will not accept freedom even when it’s easily available. They just can’t escape the mental bindings.

  148. oldfart wrote, “If an application that has proven to save me time and effort Happens to only be available on windows, And I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?”

    You can choose to be M$’s slave if you wish. I don’t. Many others don’t. The question is “How high a price are you willing to pay to use that application?”. Are you willing to “accept the EULA” which limits what you can do with your PC unrelated to M$’s copyright? Are you willing to accept today’s thousand new malwares for M$’s OS? Are you willing to re-re-reboot because M$ made some mistake again? Are you willing to pay whatever they demand? Are you willing to subscribe to M$’s cloud services because that’s how M$ wants to be paid? etc… You know that’s coming, oldfart. It’s just a matter of time before M$ tightens the screws on you because you agreed to slavery and they want to “get value” from their shrinking pie of IT. You could avoid all that just by changing how you do things. That takes some effort but once that’s done, you are free again.

  149. oldfart says:

    “One of the ways Wintel enslaves people…”

    You really do not listen, do you Robert Pogson. You continue to denigrate peoples intelligence because their choices are not yours.

    Let me ask you something…

    If an application that has proven to save me time and effort Happens to only be available on windows, And I accept its cost and terms of lease, why should I move to Linux and have to give it up?

  150. oldfart says:

    ” Any individual or organization can use GNU/Linux and be better off for using it”

    You seem to ignore the fact that many organizations can and do use Linux and Linux based applications in their server rooms. It is here where Linux has proven itself as a capable platform for business oriented applications. But whether you like it or not Windows has proven itself to the point where even your beloved FOSS has been ported to windows.

    “I and millions more prefer GNU/Linux. I like it because it costs less among many reasons and that’s not being cheap. I just have better uses for my money like buying diesel tractors.”

    And I and 100’s of million people continue to use windows. We are not sheeple or slaves. We are just not interested in twisting our personal computing environment into what we consider a pretzel and have to make do with FOSS or the small smattering of commercial desktop linux applications, just to save what amounts to $50.00 a year for an operating system. Using a Linux desktop is simply not worth the hassles!

    We also understand that if sometimes if you want to get certain functions you have to pay for that function and agree to the terms of sale, and we deem that cost as money well spent. That is not refusing to let go of the past, that is refusing to let our computing requirements be limited by cheapness.

  151. oldfart says:

    “but who are you to deny folks who choose GNU/Linux for many good reasons that they are doing the right thing?”

    Who are you to denigrate other peoples choices the opposite way?

  152. oldfart wrote, “I refuse to accept the judgement of a self admitted cheapskate whose reasons for using linux boil down to the fact that he can mooch off other peoples handouts.”

    Don’t accept my judgment, but who are you to deny folks who choose GNU/Linux for many good reasons that they are doing the right thing? Many millions use GNU/Linux, individuals to global corporations and many large organizations prefer GNU/Linux for all new applications. It’s only folks who try to hold onto the past who stick with M$ no matter what. Munich, for instance, clearly documented its previous IT-system and M$ forced them to change. They had a choice and took it, GNU/Linux. Many other large organizations have done that and millions of individuals. GNU/Linux works for people.

    One of the ways Wintel enslaves people is “divide and conquer”. M$ deliberately enlisted “Independent Software Vendors” to foist the idea that folks needing to get X done needed M$’s software. X can always be done on GNU/Linux. There’s no need for a particular application to do that. Munich found they had only ~10% of applications were difficult to replace on GNU/Linux. They will fix those up at their leisure. The others had a one-time cost of migration which broke “even” in a few years. The rest is gravy. Saving money was not their prime motivator. The end of NT4 was. In schools that I’ve migrated only one or two applications were any problem and they were small problems, not show-stoppers. Any individual or organization can use GNU/Linux and be better off for using it. The proof of that is easy. All of us at one time had no IT except paper. Paper can be replaced with M$’s stuff or GNU/Linux. I and millions more prefer GNU/Linux. I like it because it costs less among many reasons and that’s not being cheap. I just have better uses for my money like buying diesel tractors.

  153. oldfart says:

    Robert Pogson

    “Of course it works that way. There are a dozen reasons why folks migrate to GNU/Linux, each of them sufficient but not necessarily key to the decision.”

    Oh, there are a dozen reasons why Robert Pogson and the linux foundation wish that folks migrate to linux from windows, but that does not mean that they will happen. Lets take the linux foundations now 10 year old cite (you do seem to love old cites as much as you love using your limited experience with obsolete versions of windows to make your points!):

    ” Employees requesting Linux (user demand)”

    Users want applications not operating systems. In fact many of the Enterprise windows applications were chosen because management chose an application because it worked for them, and it happened to be implemented on windows. If it passed a security audit and it fit into the master plan for IT, then the application would be implemented.

    ” My competitors have successfully deployed Linux”

    So have we, but we also have Line of business applications that are based on applications running on windows as well.

    ” TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)”

    Of course the Linux foundation has TCO calculations in its favor. – So does Microsoft and so do the vendors of the applications that we use for their applications! Everyone can “prove” their product saves money.

    SO much for TCO!

    ” Reduce license costs”

    licensing costs for commercially supported Linux applications equal and sometimes exceed licensing for windows based applications.

    ” Security”
    The focus of security is the application,. not the OS. We can secure the OS (be it windows or linux, and if an application, been audited by our security team and has been passed for production, that application and its OS will be run.

    ” Source code availability (ability to customize)”

    IN many LOB applications either source code is available for customization or full API’s are provided.

    ” M$’s minnows have cut holes in the cage with all these reasons and are escaping at a great rate.”

    I am beginning to get a little tired of your insulting characterizations of the choices of Mine and others choice to continue to use windows. We are not stupid Robert Pogson, nor are we slaves, minnows, sheeple or any of the derogatory terms you choose to throw around because we choose to continue to use windows applications.

    Personally, I refuse to accept the judgement of a self admitted cheapskate whose reasons for using linux boil down to the fact that he can mooch off other peoples handouts.

    The world will use what it uses.

  154. oldfart expressed confidence that it’s not the case that, “just because you can “prove” “greater security” of linux a an OS, people are just going to dump their existing solutions and move to linux. It does not work that way, it never has, and it never will, especially when it can be demonstrated that your blessed platform has had its own share of breaches and faults.”

    Of course it works that way. There are a dozen reasons why folks migrate to GNU/Linux, each of them sufficient but not necessarily key to the decision. Security has always been high in the list. In 2005, the Desktop Linux group at the Linux Foundation found, “The top reasons for deploying Linux on the desktop (listed in order):

    • Employees requesting Linux (user demand)
    • My competitors have successfully deployed Linux
    • TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)
    • Reduce license costs
    • Security
    • Source code availability (ability to customize)
    • Corporate direction
    • Unhappy with existing desktop operating system

    In 2012, Zemlin reported that “Our latest survey of the world’s largest enterprise Linux users found that Total Cost of Ownership, technical superiority and security were the top three drivers for Linux adoption. These points support Linux’s maturity and recent success. Everyone is running their data centers with Linux. Stock exchanges, supercomputers, transportation systems and much more are using Linux for mission-critical workloads.”

    Since the early days, costs, interoperability, and independence from M$ have been thrown into the mix and the order has changed but there are a lot of reasons given. I like cost and security and flexibility. Others may like that it’s anything but M$. Munich’s main motivator was M$ itself. The French national police like the costs and ease of maintenance of GNU/Linux. Extremadura liked cost and flexibility. Stock exchanges like speed. CME emphasized price/performance and flexibility as its prime reasons to move from UNIX to GNU/Linux even though they recognized security was a benefit. Ever seen a “minnow trap”? It’s a cage one puts in the water with a funnel-shaped opening. Minnows get steered to enter and once in have to be heading in a specific direction to escape. M$’s minnows have cut holes in the cage with all these reasons and are escaping at a great rate.

    Security may be the only reason one migrates to GNU/Linux but there are plenty of other reasons to migrate with or without considerations of security.

  155. oldfart says:

    “I think its funny that you guys have not guess for 1 min why your kinds of personal attacks have been completely pointless. Particular when I go and give a briefing on religion and war.”

    And I think it is funny that you think that this load of crap is going to be accepted as anything other than a load of crap.

    But far be it from me to disabuse you of your fantasies.

    To come back to my point, you seem to think that just because you can “prove” “greater security” of linux a an OS, people are just going to dump their existing solutions and move to linux. It does not work that way, it never has, and it never will, especially when it can be demonstrated that your blessed platform has had its own share of breaches and faults. What will happen is that risks will be assessed, mitigated when possible and supplemented by a layered approach to security that will adapt over time to the changing threats.

    And all will go on as before.

  156. oiaohm says:

    oldfart you wanted the truth did you. I don’t think you guys were really ready for it.

    It does not change the point of view that you have been arguing stack of things that have been proven as false by the data losses over the last 18 months.

    I think its funny that you guys have not guess for 1 min why your kinds of personal attacks have been completely pointless. Particular when I go and give a briefing on religion and war.

  157. oldfart says:

    “DrLoser really attacking me is adding to my resume. I can prove that I can trick people that I am not a IT officer. Thank you for the great resume.”

    save your babbling for someone else.

  158. oiaohm says:

    US HIPPA/HITECH laws has resulted in a lot of hospitals buying closed unverified solutions that labeled to meet the requirements. The result has been a lot of successful internal and external cyberattacks.

    I personally believe that some of this problem is people like oldfart being in positions who straight up come up with excesses not to trust open source then blindly trust closed source.

  159. oiaohm says:

    US HIPPA/HITECH laws so you are medical oldfart those have been broken by simple means.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/08/18/cyber-attack-nets-4-5-million-records-from-large-hospital-system/

    Funny oldfart you are super over confident. The records of breaches say you should not be. You oldfart part of my job description is be a lier and fraud. I am one of ones who job at times is to test security.

    DrLoser really attacking me is adding to my resume. I can prove that I can trick people that I am not a IT officer. Thank you for the great resume.

  160. dougman says:

    52nd reason

    Windows 10 = Windows 365

    http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-trademarks-windows-365

    Enjoy your subscription to malware.

  161. DrLoser says:

    Not that Fifi is making any sense at all on this thread, although his latent microwave-driven paranoia seems to be in fine form. However, I’d like to congratulate oiaohm for what is possibly the only useful contribution he has made so far:

    oldfart who cleans your building(yes the most common overlooked). All this network isolation theory does not stand up against a determined spy.

    To be serious here, this is indeed the cause of many historical failures in security practice. From personal experience, I can identify the three biggies:

    1) Letting oiaohm anywhere near a computer.
    2) Failing to monitor the cleaning staff.
    3) Inventing a spurious reason to site a “man in the middle” data acquisition device within the data center and between the corp machines and the outward-facing network. (Don’t worry — not FTP in this case.)

    In one of my more worrying moments at work (during my time at Visa), I was actually grilled by US Treasury Officials — and yes, they do wear shades, but no, ram, they do not arrive in Black Helicopters — on account of the third of these.

    I’ve since worked out the best way to stop this. Shoot the management maniac who had sufficient authority to demand it. I don’t suppose it helped that the key to the “secure casing” in the data center was actually left on top of the secure casing.

    But I signed off on the requirements and the design, so, hey ho.

    Point (2) is generally less disturbing, although Visa managed that too. Basically the cleaning staff throw laptops into the wheelie bins and collect them at a later point. This method may have become more sophisticated in the last fifteen years, but I’m not sure that “sophistication” is a necessary part of the process.

    The cure to point (2) is, well, it’s fairly obvious, and it isn’t remotely an IT cure.

    The cure to point (1)?

    Well, I suppose I could regard Fifi as an equivalent menace to my boss at Visa, and take the necessary actions as specified above.

    I’m pretty sure that the US Treasury guys would be on my side on that one.

  162. DrLoser says:

    When you go purchase a pair of pants, do you buy the one with a bunch of holes covered over in patches? I think not!

    Waft your big ole magic pink fairy wand, Dougie!

    Waft it with pride (not necessarily pink) and with tremulous excitement!

  163. DrLoser says:

    If nothing can be secure, you should pull the plug to protect your organization.

    Well, let’s just imagine that my particular organisation is Berkshire Hathaway.

    Oh look, it is.

    And let’s just imagine that my particular organisation uses Windows desktops and Windows servers extensively.

    Oh look, they do.

    And let’s further stretch this scenario and make the obviously preposterous claim that Berkshire Hathaway is robust and profitable.

    Oh look, they are — both.

    And let us Think the Unimaginable Thought for All True Gnu/Manitobans, Robert: my organisation doesn’t give a toss whether some random application runs on Windows, Linux, Solaris, or indeed an abacus in North Vietnam.

    Oh look, they don’t.

    And your solution to my organisation’s non-existent problems? Apparently, it’s to start again, from scratch.

    Has it ever occurred to you that your attitude here might well be a contributory factor to the sad fact that you are not, contrary to your obvious talents, presently a Billionaire like Warren Buffett? Because I’m guessing that you have all the other pre-requisites.

    Shame you failed at the last hurdle, really.

  164. DrLoser says:

    If I am part of a team that sees a system that does not pass security audits, then I will make my recommendation for remediation.

    Not nearly good enough, oldfart. Just buy a Big Magic Pink Fairy Wand from DougsterInc(TM) — you’ll be astonished! (Not necessarily in a good way, but whatever.)

    It takes a serious and intractable problem with a particular system or the software running on it to get the plug pulled, and even then a recommendation such as this can get overridden by management.

    Buy an Even Bigger and Pinker Magic Fairy Wand!

    What’s that you say, oldfart? You can’t sell some pitiful bunch of managers in charge of tens of millions of dollars, and responsible for hundreds of applications delivered to thousands of clients, that what they really need is a Big Ole Magic Pinkest Possible Fairy Wand?

    I have trust in Dougie — if only in Dougie’s venality.

    He will presumably supply you with his astonishingly impressive “collateral,” which will undoubtedly convince your bosses that what they really need is:

    The biggest, pinkest, Magic Fairy Wand you have ever seen!

  165. dougman says:

    Windows troll speaks of the endeavors of Linux, “one application that has issues”, but farting OLDman refuses to speak about this fact.

    In December 2014, roughly a quarter of all the patches this month generated problems for MicroSh1t.

    http://www.infoworld.com/article/2865819/operating-systems/microsofts-december-patch-hangover-kb-3008923-2553154-2726958-3004394.html

    When you go purchase a pair of pants, do you buy the one with a bunch of holes covered over in patches? I think not!

  166. oldfart says:

    ” If nothing can be secure, you should pull the plug to protect your organization.”

    It doesn’t work that way Robert Pogson. I am just one person, albeit a senior one. If I am part of a team that sees a system that does not pass security audits, then I will make my recommendation for remediation. It takes a serious and intractable problem with a particular system or the software running on it to get the plug pulled, and even then a recommendation such as this can get overridden by management. If that happens my job is to go on record detailing the problem and the risks, after which the system is put into production.

    And I BTW, the last time this happened it was with an application running on linux.

  167. oldfart says:

    “That may be true but it’s an important factor.

    “Nothing can be secure if the underlying OS is full of holes.”

    Unfortunately for your argument, the spate of major long undetected security issues found in linux this year sure makes it seem as if it has its holes as well. And given the fact that you have never worked with Server 2012 R2, and indeed with nothing newer than server 2003, your estimation of what is “full of holes” is, to put it mildly, less than authoritative.

    ” If nothing can be secure, you should pull the plug to protect your organization.”

  168. oldfart wrote, “While Robert Pogson may think that the so called greater security of linux over windows is a major factor in its favor, the reality of a world in which no server can be counted secure renders his opinion at best only one factor among many.”

    That may be true but it’s an important factor. Nothing can be secure if the underlying OS is full of holes. If nothing can be secure, you should pull the plug to protect your organization.

  169. oldfart says:

    “oldfart who cleans your building(yes the most common overlooked). All this network isolation theory does not stand up against a determined spy. Do your controllers get vendor updates. Are you sure vendor does not get breached.”

    Look, given the fact that you are an admitted liar and fraud, I hope you will understand that I really can not take any of what you are saying seriously. Suffice it to say that we have far more of these possibilities covered than you can imagine.

    Beyond this save your babbling for someone else.

    And, once again, none of this changes the point that I have been making. While Robert Pogson may think that the so called greater security of linux over windows is a major factor in its favor, the reality of a world in which no server can be counted secure renders his opinion at best only one factor among many.

  170. oldfart says:

    “So, I’m not ignorant and my conclusions make sense. oldfart’s on the other hand, are pulled out of his…”

    In this case your personal conclusions are irrelevant. My conclusions on security are not my own – the stance that no server is secure is policy where I work, and as in a member of IT who is part of a covered entity under the US HIPPA/HITECH laws, I take security personally.

    And I can assure you that were you to be working here under the same circumstances that I am you would also be taking the same stance, no matter what your beliefs might be. Because you would not be permitted otherwise.

  171. oiaohm says:

    oldfart who cleans your building(yes the most common overlooked). All this network isolation theory does not stand up against a determined spy. Do your controllers get vendor updates. Are you sure vendor does not get breached.

    No matter how much a person say “isolated private networks unreachable” the reality is there are so many attack methods to breach to get data in that its not funny. The issue is getting the data out not getting data in.

    oldfart not every example is set up perfectly. Even your system if I spent time studying your operations I would find a flaw or two. Most common one is so funny. Protect everything then forget to protect the fire alarm system result firefighter who is not company staff has to inspect the area where the fire was.

    Basically what you are saying to me oldfart is you believe your defenses are solid so you don’t perform validation. Its like someone building a wall and not checking to make sure that no one makes a tunnel under it.

    Sorry this is not Google fueled. This is simple security common sense.

    Validation of security is key. No matter how good you think your system is holes can be so simple. Without validation you will not know if someone has in fact been able to sneak past all those so called walls.

    Sorry oldfart you want to call me Google fueled the reality hard-drive disposal in remote locations is something I have done. There is an extremely fun method called Thermite volume required to destroy 100 drives is not much. Scarry method is a cyanide pit used for gold processing. They will in fact pay you for the hard drives. I was sticking to city slicker methods oldfart.

  172. oldfart wrote, “Robert Pogson’s attempting to make it sound that Linux is “more secure” than others is not only nonsense, but ignorant nonsense.”

    I am a very rational person. Do the maths. Security is a function of many things. For instance, code-size. Any code can have defects, some of which relate to security. That other OS is huge compared to GNU/Linux and has a higher rate of defects, hence, it is quite logical to state that GNU/Linux is more secure.

    2004
    “December 14, 2004 Coverity, a software engineering company
    focused on developing a better way to build software, today announced results on Linux security compiled over four years of source code analysis of the Linux kernel. The recent 2.6 Linux production kernel now shipping in operating system products from Novell and other major Linux software companies contains 985 bugs in 5.7 million lines of code, well below the industry average for commercial enterprise software.
    Commercial software typically has 20 to 30 bugs for every thousand lines of code, according to Carnegie Mellon University’s CyLab Sustainable Computing Consortium. This is equivalent to 114,000 to 171,000 bugs in 5.7 million lines of code.”

    2013“”
    2014 – Linux “3.16 0.53” defects/KLOC.

    I can also factor in how much #%!@@ is thrown at an OS. That other OS has more than 1K times as much malware thrown at it, so it falls down a lot more.

    So, I’m not ignorant and my conclusions make sense. oldfart’s on the other hand, are pulled out of his…

  173. oldfart says:

    correction:

    Robert Pogson’s attempting to make it sound that Linux is “more secure” than others is not only nonsense, but ignorant nonsense.

  174. oldfart says:

    “Oldfart you are again going just because where you are is using nice Industrial grade shredders most government standards don’t say you have to.”

    “Oldfart those controllers still have firmware. Unvalidated they could be breached. ”

    IN the google fueled paranoid fantasy world that you inhabit, no doubt they can. IN reality these are standalone controllers on arrays attached to by SAN or LAN. Their management points are on isolated private networks unreachable by anyone save the specialized administrative servers which are also on private networks. so many layers have to be breached and not noticed that your quip is meaningless..

    None of your verbal diarrhea changes the point that I was making. IN the context of a standard security posture that no system is truly secure, Robert Pogson’s attempting to make it sound that Linux is “more secure” than others is just nonsense, but ignorant nonsense.

  175. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser I have mentioned in the past I have done rural IT.

    DrLoser and Oldfart. I have had IT jobs with onsite disposal. This not a truck that turns up.
    DrLoser that method I mentioned is in the Kaspersky Labs report . Oldfart another one is a mobile shredding machine that does not shred.

    http://www.datadev.com/mx2.html
    Its about 6000 dollars for one of these. Not 100 percent effective. Yet more secure while waiting for the shredder. But these are not fully destroyed. This horible but not 100 percent effective passes NSA and DOD standards. Yes run a Mx2 over a drive send it to land fill passes DOD and NSA and a lot of other countries.

    Oldfart what you are using is above government standards.

    This is the different oldfart. I have handled the broad range of things. From the best to the worst that passes NSA and DOD standards.

    Industrial grade shredders are fun. They eat a laptop whole just as simple as a hard-drive or 500 Pages of a4 in one hit. http://www.ssiworld.com/watch/hard_drives.htm these puppies. They don’t care if its harddrive a laptop a screen what ever. Its being turned into fragments.

    Oldfart you are again going just because where you are is using nice Industrial grade shredders most government standards don’t say you have to.

    The annoying part here is once you bend drives most auto recording of destruction systems no longer correctly record drives.

    Dealing with rural means I don’t always have the means to call a truck for on-site destruction.

    Industrial grade shredders lot of them will eat paper perfectly. So quite a few places I go have 1 that is for shredding everything. Harddrives, paper, full laptops and computers. Madish have feed chairs and desk threw them(yes passwords had been written on desk/chair so obeying password protection policy item has to be destroyed).

    oldfart USA government standards you can even get away with not shredding paper on-site but instead filling a bin and shipping it off site to disposal.

    Kaspersky Labs report covers the worse case. Oldfart not every company does it correctly.

    Most companies are still using encryption hardware installed at the controllers for stand alone storage arrays. for these people your spy is stuck with a brick. these same companies may have also opted to pay to keep their hard drives and then have them shredded on site

    Oldfart those controllers still have firmware. Unvalidated they could be breached. So the drive might not be a brick. Presuming the drive is a brick means when someone offers to do the destruction off site cheaper the power that be might jump at it or a offer for a dead drive to be replaced under warranty might be incorrectly jumped at due to the incorrect belief that the data is protected.

    You would not have said this if you had read the Kaspersky Labs report. Yes a breached controller between drives and machines had been found.

    As you state you company does a destroy on site with witnesses this is obey the policy Kaspersky recommends.

    Oldfart remember how you said “Its a lot easier and safer when you take the security posture that no system is secure” on different post.

    Don’t believe the encryption is secure without validation. As soon as you believe it secure without validation you are setting up to have your ass handed to you. Know your flaw points. Firmware in a lot of these things are you flaw points.

  176. DrLoser says:

    Then again I wouldn’t expect you to know of this because you haven’t done it, have you?

    To be scrupulously fair, oldfart, oiaohm has never been employed in an IT job of any consequence whatsoever. Otherwise he would have hinted at such a thing. You well know what a tease he can be.

    Why pick on him for this, of so many other, ignorant fantasies? I mean, for some reason, it seems to keeps him happy.

  177. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser if you are in control of the hard drive firmware you can make it report failed or failing no problems. Person just thinks they have replaced a drive under warranty and the spying group walks off with the data.

    Just one single solitary lonely instance of this ever happening even once to anybody whatsoever across the entire wide world would be a peachy sort of cite, Fifi.

    Failing that single solitary lonely instance: you’re completely full of it as always, aren’t you?

  178. oldfart says:

    “This is simpler than you think. Have the drive fail inside warranty. The drive has to be sent back for replacement to be send out right.”

    Wrong. Most companies are still using encryption hardware installed at the controllers for stand alone storage arrays. for these people your spy is stuck with a brick. these same companies may have also opted to pay to keep their hard drives and then have them shredded on site ( The company that does our shredding sends what looks like a big garbage truck with what looks like a large and very nasty looking paper shredder attached to its side. one simply records the serial number tosses the drive in and the drive is shredded (a very nasty sounding noise BTW) at the end one gets a certificate of disposal.

    Then again I wouldn’t expect you to know of this because you haven’t done it, have you?
    How does your spy

  179. oiaohm says:

    oldfart the fact we cannot trust the drive firmware is a fairly annoying issue.

    DrLoser
    This expertise on hard drive firmware and the nasty tendency of National Security Organisations to remove said hard drives from people’s homes without them noticing
    This is simpler than you think. Have the drive fail inside warranty. The drive has to be sent back for replacement to be send out right.

    DrLoser if you are in control of the hard drive firmware you can make it report failed or failing no problems. Person just thinks they have replaced a drive under warranty and the spying group walks off with the data.

    On very, very, very rare occasions, you may need to flash the firmware or reinstall your OS’s file system or even the entire OS. And when I say very, very rare, I mean so extraordinarily rate that I am tolerably certain you have never once found the need to do so.
    DrLoser you really need to read the report. It was malware that flashed the drives then disappeared. So number of drives to sort threw are massively reduced. Trying to network send data out can generate more attention then fairly new drive failing.

    DrLoser you are rewrite stuff you are idiot on this topic you are not worth answering. Even Oldfart agrees you cannot trust desktop harddrive drives to be secure.

    I don’t trust the drive based encryption anyway right now on desktops. On large systems the data is stored in standalone arrays whose microcode are inaccessible and we have those disks either wiped to government standards and/or sent for shredding.
    oldfart. Please note hard drives don’t have microcode. Harddrives have firmware. Microcode is unique to programmable microprocessors like Intel x86 processors. So this is another case of you getting basics wrong.

    Oldfart USA Government still supports software wiping. Wiped to government standards may not be wiped if you supplies harddrives contain infected firmware and you choose the software wiping option.

    Oldfart what government are you under. I think you better check. Kaspersky find fairly much under mines many countries Government Standards on hard-drive disposal.

    Sent for shredding with a preference for on site shredding an answer. High level degaussing field on site is another answer. Both result in the drive being completely non functional. Both are physical destruction options. Both don’t require a computer. Reason why I did not recommend the degaussing field option is it does not work against all solid state drives. This include some of the Hybrid drives.

    Oldfart there is only 1 method that works in the current environment that does not require operator to sort the drives.

  180. DrLoser says:

    They usually take forever to test the consequences of their patches on their pile of “Pick-UP-Sticks” that is their OS.

    You have no cite for “usually,” no cite for “forever,” no cite for “testing,” no cite for “consequences,” and all you can come up with is a monumentally feeble Wikipedia article on a children’s game, Robert?

    Here. A Filipino recipe for fried farm frog, just for you. I couldn’t find one for slowly parboiled frog — it’s a concept that even Filipinos seem to have gone off, since the 19th century.

    So sue me. You’re comparing a modern Windows OS (ten years at least since you’ve been allowed to get your mitts anywhere near one) to a children’s game.

    I’m comparing the Gnu/Debian/Linux desktop to a deep-fried frog.

    Can we both please get back to reality? You first, Robert.

  181. DrLoser says:

    One hates to press for tiny little possibly unimportant details, Fifi, but:

    But at least you’re on topic. Now, was it Ubuntu or Dell that “inserted this malware?”

    And what was the name of the malware? (See? I’m helping you out in your Puritan refusal to give me cites. No cite required. Just a name.)

    An answer, please. At your leisure, my liege.

  182. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser repsonding in 24 hours for something that should have been done over 3 years ago is nothing to be proud of.

    The reality is if Microsoft anti-malware had been upto date there was no way Lenovo could have done this.

    I see. Fairly coherent, by your usual standards, oiaohm. You’re obviously on top of the subject.

    So, tell us all: how, exactly, would you go about detecting a pre-installed Winsock shim?

    This is going to be fascinating.

  183. DrLoser says:

    This expertise on hard drive firmware and the nasty tendency of National Security Organisations to remove said hard drives from people’s homes without them noticing … whoops, to dumpster-dive for them in the hope that trawling through tens of thousands of hard drives will yield useful National Security information — perhaps it will, perhaps it will …
    May I be so bold as to ask for even the vaguest possible personal details on how you came to be personally acquainted with such things, Fifi?
    That there is an extraordinarily important lamp-post you strut your night-time wares under, isn’t it?
    Because I’m pretty sure you don’t get that knowledge by repairing electric fences and collecting prize bull semen.

  184. DrLoser says:

    DrLoser when a Harddrive firmware is infected you can run full drive erase tools and full drive check tools and have the harddrive reporting that is blank. Replace the firmware with uninfected and magically the drive was never cleared at all. This is great for spys when they have got control of the hardware disposal company.

    Or, to put it another way:

    The only way to “detect that a hard drive is not in fact deleting files” — a rather obscure and distinctly uncommon requirement, if you ask me — is to read the damn files back again.

    On very, very, very rare occasions, you may need to flash the firmware or reinstall your OS’s file system or even the entire OS. And when I say very, very rare, I mean so extraordinarily rate that I am tolerably certain you have never once found the need to do so.

    But let’s admit of that possibility. Once you have gone through those various chores, Fifi, you are still going to need to read those files back again, in order to prove that they are still on the hard drive.

    You’re a bit dim, aren’t you?

  185. oldfart says:

    “oldfart come on switch you brain on I know its in there. ”

    I will not accept such from an admitted liar and fraud. I can google too if I choose to Sir, you are not anyone whose “advice” I respect.

    Have a nice day…

  186. oldfart says:

    “Basically harddrive hardware encryption without confirm-able firmware is worlds biggest fail. Its a conman trap. If you trust the drive to encrypt and its firmware has been replaced and it not doing the encryption or recording the keys where do you stand yep right in the river from hell.”

    I don’t trust the drive based encryption anyway right now on desktops. On large systems the data is stored in standalone arrays whose microcode are inaccessible and we have those disks either wiped to government standards and/or sent for shredding.

    All this event will do is delay the use of drives with encrypting hardware on desktops.

    Next case…

  187. oiaohm says:

    oldfart
    I am talking about external encryption but taken care of by the drive hardware.
    So the drive controller hardware gets the plain text data right. Rogue firmware does not have to encrypt or can record the key in hidden sectors oldfart. So depending on anything drive hardware near plain text in a rogue harddrive firmware event is fail.

    Basically harddrive hardware encryption without confirm-able firmware is worlds biggest fail. Its a conman trap. If you trust the drive to encrypt and its firmware has been replaced and it not doing the encryption or recording the keys where do you stand yep right in the river from hell.

    Oldfart there are mid stream encryption devices like some raid controllers have hardware accelerated encryption. Again same problem if attacker gets this controller firmware you are screwed. Yes you need conformable firmware in these.

    Depending on something like bitlocker locally is depend on that the boot process is not beaten by what ever the firmware of the boot drive has if it hostile.

    oldfart come on switch you brain on I know its in there. Does the hard drive hardware work without its firmware. Answer is no it does not. Depending on drive hardware means you are depending on the exact part the spys who have been caught swapping hard-drive firmwares have been depending on.

  188. oldfart says:

    “Not only did the firmware lie if it was a boot drive would modify the boot data to make the encryption keys be sent to the drive to be written in so spy could decode the drive. ”

    I am talking about external encryption but taken care of by the drive hardware.

  189. oiaohm says:

    ” This is great for spys when they have got control of the hardware disposal company.”

    and useless when the data arrives on the disk encrypted.
    oldfart you need to go read the Kaspersky Labs report on this. Not only did the firmware lie if it was a boot drive would modify the boot data to make the encryption keys be sent to the drive to be written in so spy could decode the drive. It was the infection of the OS that caused Kaspersky to go investaging trying to find where this infection was keeping on coming from particularly when the drive appeared clean.

    Disk encrypted is only good if the attacker has not been given the keys on the drive as well and the encrypted data.

    oldfart this is highly not friendly. Its very good reason for on-site physical destruction before disposal.

  190. oldfart says:

    ” This is great for spys when they have got control of the hardware disposal company.”

    and useless when the data arrives on the disk encrypted.

  191. oiaohm says:

    The only way to “detect that a hard drive is not in fact deleting files” — a rather obscure and distinctly uncommon requirement, if you ask me — is to read the damn files back again.

    Every last one of them.
    DrLoser when a Harddrive firmware is infected you can run full drive erase tools and full drive check tools and have the harddrive reporting that is blank. Replace the firmware with uninfected and magically the drive was never cleared at all. This is great for spys when they have got control of the hardware disposal company.

    Harddrive firmware controls what you can see about hard-drive reality.

    DrLoser if your harddrive does not have the correct firmware you are screwed. Worse is the fact due to no standard for read/writing harddrive firmware the software in the harddrive can control if you can write a new firmware and the firmware it displays it is using. So infected firmware can display and appear to update firmware on a harddrive yet never change the firmware from the infected one. Yes JTAG can be required to access the flash chip on the harddrive. Guess where the access pins for that are. On the under side of the controller board. So you have to unscrew the harddrive controller to confirm if it clean or not.

  192. oiaohm says:

    http://malwaretips.com/blogs/superfish-window-shopper-adware/
    Notice the date January 21, 2013 DrLoser I gave you a hint. Superfish was removed by Microsoft anti-malware competitors 2 years ago.

    So Microsoft required a PR disaster to add the removeal code. Then the removal is buggy as unlike Microsoft anti-malware tools competitors Microsoft solution did not clean up chrome or firefox.

    So Microsoft tool for dealing with malware is over 2 years out of date on removal defines.

    DrLoser repsonding in 24 hours for something that should have been done over 3 years ago is nothing to be proud of.

    The reality is if Microsoft anti-malware had been upto date there was no way Lenovo could have done this.

    The reality is Microsoft is 100 percent responsible that this was possible. Big questions how much other malware that cause equal problems does the Microsoft default tool miss.

  193. DrLoser quoth, “Roughly 24 hours after news emerged that an unknown number of Lenovo PCs were infected with potentially dangerous software, Microsoft released a tool that automatically removes the offending code.”

    That’s admirable. They could do that because there was no possibility of negative consequence for any of their software. They usually take forever to test the consequences of their patches on their pile of “Pick-UP-Sticks” that is their OS.

  194. DrLoser says:

    “And the fairly swift response by Microsoft”
    What response only after it become a PR nightmare.

    I’m beginning to suspect that (amongst many, many other topics) you don’t quite grasp the nature of an “OEM,” oiaohm. Perhaps there should have been a disclaimer on the bottom of that bubble-gum packet you bought a “Microsoft VAR” certificate off … you know, along the lines of “Caution: Purchase of this Product will not Cure Utter Ignorance.”

    An Original Equipment Manufacturer, oiaohm, has since the Dawn of Time taken other people’s components and bundled them together. In this case, the OEM is Lenovo and the component in question is Microsoft Windows.

    How fast is fast enough, Fifi?

    That was fast. Roughly 24 hours after news emerged that an unknown number of Lenovo PCs were infected with potentially dangerous software, Microsoft released a tool that automatically removes the offending code.

  195. DrLoser says:

    Trojan in Lenovo U400 driver
    Microsoft signed that as a certified driver package. The key on that package is not revoked and it was over 2 years ago.

    Need I point out to you, oiaohm, that your cite (which as usual I tidied up for you. I pride myself on being kind to small furry animals and mental defectives) has nothing at all to do with Superfish, ie the topic of this discussion?

    To be brutally honest, your cite doesn’t really seem to prove that there was an issue in the first place. I mean, presumably somebody else would have mentioned it.

  196. DrLoser says:

    Change company name to Dell and the Distro is Ubuntu. The event has already happened and community response is known. You have to be a fairly stupid vendor to try it. Yet this has not stopped a particular class of vendors trying it.

    As usual you didn’t bother with a cite, oiaohm. Or indeed an explanation.

    But at least you’re on topic. Now, was it Ubuntu or Dell that “inserted this malware?”

    And what was the name of the malware? (See? I’m helping you out in your Puritan refusal to give me cites. No cite required. Just a name.)

  197. DrLoser says:

    Robert Pogson detecting that a harddrive is not in fact deleting files requires the means to inspect its firmware in the first place.

    That’s just pushing the problem one layer of hardware down, oiaohm.

    The only way to “detect that a hard drive is not in fact deleting files” — a rather obscure and distinctly uncommon requirement, if you ask me — is to read the damn files back again.

    Every last one of them.

    And the point of this exercise is supposed to be?

  198. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson detecting that a harddrive is not in fact deleting files requires the means to inspect its firmware in the first place.

    There is a very big case for all the firmware being open source. The firmware turns out to be open source to the NSA and other nasty parties who can steal or force companies to hand over their signing keys so lets put all governments on equal footing. Signing can prevent unapproved firmware from loading so makers still have software control. But having the source to the firmware and the tools used to build it can be used to confirm that the fireware is true and correct and if it not correct detect that a hardware maker has been breach or having arm twisted.

    And possibly other related topics, such as, “would there be a commercially viable reason for Lenovo to insert similarly nasty little bits of malware into a Linux Distro?”
    Change company name to Dell and the Distro is Ubuntu. The event has already happened and community response is known. You have to be a fairly stupid vendor to try it. Yet this has not stopped a particular class of vendors trying it.

    There is a lot of hell over Android as well due to carrier installed software. Google is trying to get all carrier addon software installed by google play so it can be audited for anything like this and removed if anything is found.

    And “would the Linux Distro in question react quite as fast as Microsoft did?”
    http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-U-and-S-Series-Notebooks/Trojan-in-Lenovo-U400-driver/td-p/902219
    Microsoft signed that as a certified driver package. The key on that package is not revoked and it was over 2 years ago.

    “And the fairly swift response by Microsoft”
    What response only after it become a PR nightmare.

    Dell was extending Ubuntu with add on software this end up with the Ubuntu world universally recommending nuke it and worse recommended avoiding the Dell Products effected.
    https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/sjs/how-the-nokia-browser-decrypts-ssl-traffic-a-man-in-the-client/

    Man in the middle attacking ssl traffic is not new. Microsoft issue is they could not drop the hammers hard when they are in fact doing the same thing.

    DrLoser basically Microsoft need todo an announcement about changing browsers on mobile devices to get there own house in order.

  199. DrLoser says:

    Geezus! Do those two blather on.

    Wot, me and Pog? I think you’ll find we’ve monopolised the discussion, at least in word count, so far. Everybody else is trailing pitifully, although I’m sure we all appreciate constructive input from the peanut gallery such as yourself.

    The topic? The onerous requirement upon Chinese OEMs to insert nasty little bits of malware into what, for the sake of argument, we can call a “Windows Distro.”

    And the fairly swift response by Microsoft.

    And possibly other related topics, such as, “would there be a commercially viable reason for Lenovo to insert similarly nasty little bits of malware into a Linux Distro?”

    And “would the Linux Distro in question react quite as fast as Microsoft did?”

    And maybe others.

    I have no wish to shatter your pitiful little dreams, lpbear, but if you think that either oldfart or I are capable of promoting the Evil Monopoly (Q2 2015: Devices and Consumers Division, up 8% to $12.9 billion), then you need to seek better medication.

    If all you want to do is to justify your inability to answer our points by mumbling “Mommy! Please make the nasty guys stop! They’re using too many words!,” then that is also fine.

    For most people this would count as a complete intellectual cop-out, but then again, lpbear, you are above the level of “most people,” aren’t you?

  200. lpbbear says:

    Geezus! Do those two blather on.

    In my mind I picture the two of them looking something like a Yin/Yang symbol with each ones head up the others rearend both parroting the same moronic crap day in and day out.

    Defenders of the faith both of them. Amazing how much time they spend here! I had no idea you were such a threat to their corporate lord and master Pog?

  201. DrLoser says:

    Nonsense. Most of the web uses GNU/Linux as does several percent of legacy client PCs.

    And every single last one of the “sheeple” who run Windows use professionally-generated software, featuring that “1%” of people you claim are off the radar, Robert.

    I, personally, do not regard Linux as “off the radar.” Neither do I regard software professionals as being “off the radar” (what with being one).

    It should be fairly clear that I am not arguing that “the other 98%” should ignore Linux, roll tanks over the lawn, etc etc.

    I am merely pointing out that this is the logical corollary to your assertion that “the other 99%” should ignore the rights of software professionals. Which is actually what you said in the first place:

    That’s not even on the radar for the 99% of us who don’t produce code at all…

    I have no objection, should you care to retract that statement. It’s easy to get a little too enthusiastic when trying to make a point. No reason to hold it against you.

  202. DrLoser says:

    I couldn’t care less if certain software is available for that other OS. The problem is that other OS, not its applications.

    Oh, really?

    In principle, FLOSS supplies tools to detect such things, e.g. WireShark.

    So there was no actual point to bringing WireShark up in the first place? And it doesn’t actually help detect problems (on whichever of the three Big OSes it is deployed upon) at all?

    Or maybe it’s just deficient on Windows, for some unspecified reason that you, as a confirmed non-Windows user would be unable to confirm?

    Or, just maybe, you have no idea what WireShark does, and have in fact never once used it?

  203. DrLoser wrote, “You appear to be very slightly less familiar with the platforms that it runs on”.

    I couldn’t care less if certain software is available for that other OS. The problem is that other OS, not its applications.

  204. DrLoser wrote, “Gnu/Linux is not even on the radar for the 98% of us who don’t use it. Many businesses too don’t use Gnu/Linux, so why mention it?”

    Nonsense. Most of the web uses GNU/Linux as does several percent of legacy client PCs. We won’t even mention the billion users of Android/Linux. Businesses thrive on GNU/Linux btw, haven’t you heard? Largest Linux User Trends 2014

    Other nonsense about stealing software is just that, nonsense. If software is stolen, people would be taken to court over that. The facts are that copying is not theft, and copying with permission to run, examine, modify and distribute, is not a crime.

  205. DrLoser says:

    “I hate Microsoft because they found out what Lenovo were doing and updated their in-house malware product>http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-updates-windows-defender-to-remove-superfish-infection/ to put a stop to it.”

    Yes, I can quite see how that would irk you, Robert.

    Me? I have this silly little tendency to bitch about Linux Distros blindly packaging dangerous security holes without so much as a cursory test and then whining that it should really have been fixed by Upstream in the first place.

    I’m very unusual in that way. I belong to the fantastically tiny proportion of computer users who consider that part of our contract (EULA, GPL, whatever) with the supplier of our OS is that they bloody well test the thing thoroughly before lumping their “customers” with the problem.

    Feel free to moan about M$ security issues, patch Tuesday, etc etc etc. But while you’re doing that, please give us a straight answer to the following question:

    How many professional man-hours of security testing does Debian put in, per release? Presumably this shows up in a budget somewhere.

    And of course there will be test suites freely available. (Don’t whinge about M$ — there are test suites for Perl and Python and pretty much all languages deployed on FLOSS, with the possible exception of HTML.)

    Do test suites not fall under the otherwise all-encompassing purview of the Fabulous Furry Four Freedoms?

  206. DrLoser says:

    That’s not even on the radar for the 99% of us who don’t produce code at all, like consumers, most kids, and old people. Many businesses too don’t produce code, so why mention it? Desperation?

    By the same token, Gnu/Linux is not even on the radar for the 98% of us who don’t use it. Many businesses too don’t use Gnu/Linux, so why mention it? Desperation?

    So, let me get this wonderful argument straight. You are advocating what amounts to “theft by licence,” but only if the number of people involved is sufficiently small.

    Software professionals clearly qualify, and in fact those of us who produce saleable code that might be hoicked away by the GPL are even fewer.

    In fact, there’s so few of us out here that I recommend you extend your proposal to include ransacking our houses, “re-purposing” our computers, and carrying off our spouses to the White Slave Trade.

    And once we’re forced into a ghetto of maybe 5,000 productive software professionals, we qualify for the software equivalent of Green Shield Stamps on this theory. That’s a tiny and insignificant number — it need not impinge on your generous conscience any more than, say, the number of civilian deaths caused by Putin’s adventurism in the Ukraine.

    Just stealing our livelihood is small beer, Robert. Why not roll over all of us with a tank?

  207. DrLoser says:

    In principle, FLOSS supplies tools to detect such things, e.g. WireShark.

    I imagine you are thoroughly familiar with the analysis of network packets via WireShark, Robert — being the consummate professional that you are.

    You appear to be very slightly less familiar with the platforms that it runs on.

  208. oldfart wrote, “Tell that to those who were foolish enough to build on top of GPL’d code only to lose their work because they were compelled to release the source.”

    That’s not even on the radar for the 99% of us who don’t produce code at all, like consumers, most kids, and old people. Many businesses too don’t produce code, so why mention it? Desperation? Technical people who do take a shortcut of using FLOSS to get a product sooner rather than later should be able to read the GPL and figure that out. If they don’t they are still OK as long as they don’t distribute and use the software internally. It’s also rather easy to replace FLOSS libraries and other dependencies should anyone be foolish enough to think that’s a better way. It’s FLOSS, after all. You are allowed to include the software or to delete it.

  209. oldfart says:

    “I think it will be a great day when the OEMs remove that other OS from their list of installable operating systems.”

    So much for others choice to use the software they want. But then again, you cant have it for free on your cheapskate terms, eh.

  210. oldfart says:

    “The GPL is not a licensing agreement. It is a simple licence giving rights to the recipient”

    Tell that to those who were foolish enough to build on top of GPL’d code only to lose their work because they were compelled to release the source. That is far worse IMHO than a commercial license agreement like Microsofts.

  211. oldfart quoted, “”the EULA (none is better)”

    then wrote, “So when do we revoke the GPL?”

    The GPL is not a licensing agreement. It is a simple licence giving rights to the recipient. M$’s EULA gives only a restricted right to run software, and takes away a bunch of others like the right to connect any number of PCs together on a network. The rights M$ steals are valuable. They have no right under copyright law to do that so they shove it into the EULA from HELL. There is nothing like that in the GPL.

  212. lpbbear wrote, “Microsoft is ultimately responsible for the issue.”

    Amen. M$ controlled the rules of the game, the deck and even what was printed on the cards… They made up new rules every few years for decades.

    M$ has promptly cleaned up Lenovo’s act. It’s interesting that M$ is naming software provided by one of its “partners” as malware… I think it will be a great day when the OEMs remove that other OS from their list of installable operating systems.

  213. oldfart failed to disprove my claims at all and wrote, “Paranoid crap without proof of any kind, care to provide some beyond the same tired factoids from a long settled case.”

    It’s not paranoia if they are out to get us.

    • M$ has been found guilty of illegal anti-competitive acts many times,
    • Documents produced in US DOJ v M$ clearly show the machinations, and
    • M$’s CEO repeatedly claimed GNU/Linux was evil. Proper businesses don’t go around doing that about legitimate competition do they? Just ask Nadella.
  214. oldfart says:

    “I can measure the superiority of GNU/Linux by the malware ”

    The usual subjective baloney, but lets go through your measure:

    “malware (less is better)” No system is secure, and linux has its own exploits that we have had to deal with over the years.

    price (less is better)

    In the case of the so called “free” distribution Linux you get untested amateur hour products that you get to support. If you want something professional you get to pay Red Hat for the support as we do.

    ” the EULA (none is better)”

    So when do we revoke the GPL?

    ” the GPL (4 freedoms accompany the software including use, examination,
    modification and distribution – It doesn’t get any better than that)

    Meaningless garbage that nobody but you give a crap about, and then its only because you can avoid having to pay for what you use, cheapskate!

    “the speed (faster is better)”

    I’ll bench my windows desktop against yours anyday!

    ” the re-re-reboots (fewer is better),”

    My reboots as are most windows users these days are basically once a month and take place in the wee hours. The system comes back up in 20 seconds. (I boot from SSD’s)

    ” the machinations to take over the world (less is far better).”

    Paranoid crap without proof of any kind, care to provide some beyond the same tired factoids from a long settled case.

    As I said, fantasy.

  215. lpbbear says:

    Enough attention was drawn to this issue that the company in question, Lenovo, was forced to clean up their act. If you have an interest in computers you might want to consider why this happened.

    If you have been using computers for more than a few years you may remember a time when your new computer purchase included a set of system discs one of which was a copy of the Microsoft Windows you legally purchased along with the new computer. With that disc and the drivers for the various hardware devices in your computer you always had the ability to install a “clean” fresh copy of your operating system without any chance of malware, adware, viruses, spyware or whatever being forced upon you.

    A few years back Microsoft started urging computer manufacturers to not include a Windows disc with your new system and instead the software you paid for was placed in a hidden partition on the hard drive that supposedly provided you with all your legally purchased software including the copy of Windows.

    Microsoft’s reasons for this were pure greed. Obviously given the number of potential issues that could affect a hard drive there’s always the chance you will be unable to retrieve your legally purchased software. This increases the odds that you will have to purchase another copy of Windows to get your computer functioning again. In essence some percentage of computer owners will be paying Microsoft twice for copy’s of Windows.

    So, its no stretch of the imagination to think that this method of providing the owners software leaves a huge opening for unscrupulous computer manufacturers who realize they can interject malicious or profit making software into your new computer. Software you have no way of getting rid of. Even with this new solution coming from Lenovo, without a set of clean system discs, owners will still be stuck with “Superfish” anytime they have a need to restore their computer.

    While Lenovo bears a huge amount of blame for exploiting this Microsoft is ultimately responsible for the issue.

  216. luvr wrote, “Perhaps oldfart means that the “fantasy” is that Linux is “not perfect”?”

    That’s like a double negative, but I’ll take it… 😉

  217. luvr says:

    Perhaps oldfart means that the “fantasy” is that Linux is “not perfect”? 🙂

  218. oldfart quoth, “GNU/Linux may not be perfect but it’s obviously superior.”

    Then, he wrote, “Fantasy…”

    Fantasy can’t be measured. I can measure the superiority of GNU/Linux by the malware (less is better), price (less is better), the EULA (none is better), the GPL (4 freedoms accompany the software including use, examination, modification and distribution – It doesn’t get any better than that), the speed (faster is better), the re-re-reboots (fewer is better), and the machinations to take over the world (less is far better). The only thing that other OS has in superior quantity is salesmen/goons.

  219. oldfart says:

    “GNU/Linux may not be perfect but it’s obviously superior.”

    Fantasy…

  220. oiaohm wrote, “Just because you buy a computer without Windows does not mean that the computer is clean.”

    In principle, FLOSS supplies tools to detect such things, e.g. WireShark. You’re still far better off to run GNU/Linux on your PCs instead of that other OS. GNU/Linux may not be perfect but it’s obviously superior.

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