IoT, Revolution In Personal Computing, or FLOSS Taking Over the World of IT

The “Perfect Storm” I predicted 7 years ago was just a gentle breeze compared to the current rate of change of IT in the world.

  • “Chen is also optimistic about the Chromebook business as the device’s share in overall notebook shipments already rose from around 10% in 2013 to over 30% currently and will continue to grow in the future.” 30% of notebooks are shipping with GNU/Linux. 30%! That’s not a typo! That’s the new reality. Thin clients and GNU/Linux have arrived. This is GNU/Linux on many millions of desktop devices cranked out by OEMs and sold by retailers all over the world in bulk, not some dipping of toes in the water. That other OS need not apply…
    See Acer looks to stable smartphone business, says CEO.
  • “In the third quarter of 2014, smartphones accounted for 66 percent of the total mobile phone market, and Gartner estimates that by 2018, nine out of 10 phones will be smartphones.” Yes! Android/Linux is shipping on almost 4 times as many personal computers as legacy PCs burdened with that other OS.

    See Gartner Says Sales of Smartphones Grew 20 Percent in Third Quarter of 2014.

  • “China-based Huawei targets to ramp up its smartphone shipments to over 100 million units in 2015, increasing 33.3% from 75 million units shipped a year earlier, according to the company.”

    See Huawei aims to ship 100 million smartphones in 2015.

What can you say? In a few short years, that other OS has gone from mainstream to niche and Android/Linux and GNU/Linux are stepping up to displace it as the goto OS of the world. It’s all good. This is the right way to do IT with the world making its own software throughout the whole stack: OS on client and server and a ton of applications too. There is no need for a monopoly in IT. The world wants a revolution not lock-in.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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36 Responses to IoT, Revolution In Personal Computing, or FLOSS Taking Over the World of IT

  1. DrLoser writing out of ignorance wrote, “It beggars belief that a home computer wouldn’t have backup distribution media for XP, let alone an entire school. And you don’t wipe a machine without having some sort of way back — that’s just common sense.”

    The machines were ~6 years old. No one currently employed had the information about their origins, licences, installation media. I made backups at first to get them back to work but later we just installed GNU/Linux for good. It worked much better.

    Don’t second guess history. You weren’t there. I did everything I could to keep XP running and only went to GNU/Linux when it was obvious XP wouldn’t work for us. I was working extra hours daily keeping XP running. It took only minutes per day for GNU/Linux.

    The meantime before failure of those XP machines was just weeks when restored from the backup. They always got malware or became unbootable. We upgraded them from SP1 to SP3 current updated. We changed the FS from FAT to NTFS. We added a state of the art anti-malware. We installed a firewall to the Internet. It wasn’t enough and I could not waste any more time on them. It took 10 minutes per machine to image with GNU/Linux so eventually we just re-imaged with GNU/Linux when they came in for repair and finally hunted down a few that continued to run. It took a week or two to phase in GNU/Linux and it ran flawlessly for many months before I left. All but two teachers loved it. It was fast and reliable in comparison. One teacher kept one XP machine for playing DVDs in Grade 1. Another teacher wanted a new machine put back to that other OS and after hours of work she could no longer access our file-shares nor her laser printer.

    So shut up. I knew what I was doing and had the approval of authorities. The principal even asked me to install GNU/Linux on his notebook. I did that, a dual-boot with “7”. The office had one M$-only application, acutally a MySQL database that used a Java front end. How that was M$-only? “C:\\” all over the place… I later installed that database on GNU/Linux using phpMyAdmin for the front end. It worked perfectly.

  2. Drloser wrote, “Did you ever once ask Easterville what had happened to all the backup XP installation media?”

    I never touched an XP machine at Easterville. I installed all new equipment. The last place I worked was supplied mostly with Computers for Schools machines which were installed of XP before delivery. They came with a certificate which I stored. There were no installation media. I created backups and then eventually installed GNU/Linux instead. Older machines which were not Computers for Schools were completely undocumented as far as I knew and the files and the principal had no idea about installation media or even any proof that the machines were purchased or donated. Several stickers were gone or illegible. I converted them to GNU/Linux right away and used Clonezilla for backups and Debian GNU/Linux as a terminal server and file-server.

  3. DrLoser says:

    OK, I’ll bite, Robert.

    Did you ever once ask Easterville what had happened to all the backup XP installation media?

    And if so, what was their response?

  4. DrLoser says:

    We wiped XP and had no distribution media off which to pull it.

    That’s two problems that you caused yourself. It beggars belief that a home computer wouldn’t have backup distribution media for XP, let alone an entire school. And you don’t wipe a machine without having some sort of way back — that’s just common sense. And in the very unlikely contingency that you want to wipe a machine, with no backup — you prepare for this by phoning a friend (even Microsoft! Did you try that?) and arranging for backup installation media before you wipe the machine.

    Sysadmins all over the world do this, Robert. But you just had to do it differently, didn’t you?

    That’s why we installed “7”. You do know that you need a licence for XP if you’re going to use that software eh?

    Forgive me for assuming that, if you hadn’t wiped XP, or if you had been in possession of backup media, you would have been in possession of a licence. There seems to be some sort of unbridgeable chasm between this state of affairs and “that’s why we installed 7.”

    We had no licence that I could find.

    Again. Did you look before you wiped? Because you should have. It’s an elementary precaution for a sysadmin.

    All we had was a CD to “upgrade” to “7”. We never intended to run XP on those machines.

    Let me try and untangle this mess.

    1) There were several machines, very possibly all totally borked, originally running XP.
    2) You had no installation media and no XP licences to hand.
    3) I’ll leave aside the assumption that you didn’t bother trying to run a deep-clean anti-virus scan on any of the machines, just to get a clean image. That might have helped, but is inconsequential to this slow-moving train-wreck of yours.
    4) You didn’t bother to take elementary precautions, like phoning around for a licence (a temporary 30 day one would do) or for backup media.
    5) You wiped … was it just one, or was it all XP machines simultaneously? It’s not clear. Assuming that I was in your position, and felt like a bit of dangerous experimentation, I’d have picked the most borked machine in terms of software, yet the machine with hardware specs matching the requirements for Windows 7. I assume you, adventurously (and ill-advisedly) did the same.
    6) You never intended to run XP on the machines in the first place. Wait, wait, what? There’s a complete difference between “never intending to” and “refusing to anticipate a perfectly reasonable fall-back position.” Apparently you missed this distinction by a country mile or two.
    7) Having comprehensively botched a simple system administration procedure, you’re complaining that a Windows 7 upgrade disk, which somehow runs on an XP machine that you have totally wiped, doesn’t meet your needs regarding some printer driver or other.

    Well, well, well. There’s just the tiniest possibility that we are both sick and tired of each other’s BS on this one, Robert.

    But one of us has an absorbing tale of total inadequate futility to tell, and the other of us is prepared to analyse what might have gone wrong. Guess it depends which flavour of BS one prefers.

  5. DrLoser quoted, “I figured out how to make my HP1020 LaserJet Printer work in Vista Ultimate Edition. Xp software&drivers will work in Vista after a little tweaking in printer properties.”

    Yes. There was no problem with XP. “7” of course did not ship with the driver and could not locate it because there was none. We wiped XP and had no distribution media off which to pull it. That’s why we installed “7”. You do know that you need a licence for XP if you’re going to use that software eh? We had no licence that I could find. All we had was a CD to “upgrade” to “7”. We never intended to run XP on those machines. We also did not have enough disc storage to back up every OS in the place. Hence we used Debian GNU/Linux with a local repository. It worked for us.

    I’m tired of your BS, DrLoser. You can’t download the driver for “7” from anywhere. You can’t use the XP stuff except on XP with a licence for XP. Read the damned EULA. M$ does not licence their part of the driver, the USB subsystem, for anything but XP. It’s one of these host-based things. The printer can’t do anything without it and “7” can’t supply it. GNU/Linux did, just fine.

  6. DrLoser says:

    One more thing, Robert. That “Perfect Storm” of yours?

    You may define “perfection” in whatever way you choose. My definition would not include a 90% failure rate.

  7. DrLoser says:

    Note: it’s funny that the resident trolls say that this blog and the pro-Linux advocates are full of crap, so I ask, why do you even bother coming here?

    Simple answer for you, Dougie. It’s because you, personally, are hysterically yet unintentionally amusing. I could go to the movies and spend $8 on popcorn. Modern society no longer allows me to visit lunatic asylums and lower myself to watching the bizarre antics on display.

    The great thing about this, Dougie, is that you’re Free! Free as in Beer, obviously.

    I have no desire to tinker with your insides. And even less desire to distribute them.

  8. DrLoser says:

    See, also, the comments?

    Well, yes, Robert. Why not? You first.

  9. DrLoser says:

    In one case, “7” brought in a new file/print sharing protocol about which XP knew nothing, and in another case it was a missing driver. M$ would not license the USB-part of a driver for an HP Laserjet printer which worked fine in GNU/Linux. See also, the comments.

    I did indeed “see the comments,” Robert. And you’ll be astonished to find that I learned the following:

    Thanks to FishPoo, a really good job. Once again for dudes with Vista 64:
    1) download this file …

    URL now broken, but we’re talking Vista Time here. Not too surprising. Or:

    Seems the new Microsoft Driver for the HP LaserJet 1020 is working. However when something is done printing it says in the printer log spooling and does not go away. Hopefully Microsoft can fix this little bug. It goes away when you reboot though.

    Here, I would agree with you. I have been personally frustrated by the M$ printer spooler for ten years or more.

    But, apparently, not a problem with HP 1020 Vista drivers. Just with the Spooler.

    Hi, I just installed printer from original HP LJ 1020 driver CD and it works.

    Oops, there goes your credibility, Robert. Or:

    I figured out how to make my HP1020 LaserJet Printer work in Vista Ultimate Edition. Xp software&drivers will work in Vista after a little tweaking in printer properties.

    1)Install the CD-Rom HP Software/Drivers that came with your Printer at the time you purchased it. These Xp software&drivers are Vista Compatible after tweaking the Printer Properties. Reboot after installing.

    2)Goto Start/Printers. Right click HPLaserJet1020 then Left click Properties. An HPLaserJet Properties window should have popped up.

    3)Click the Advanced Tab. Click the Print Processor button located at bottom of window.

    4)Select print processor as>>>IMFPrint. Then Select Default Data Type as>>>RAW. Click OK.

    5)Now return to the Main HPLaserJet Properties window and click the General Tab. On the Bottom of that window; Click the Print Test Page Button. Finished! A test page should be printing out if you adjusted the printer properties correctly. Enjoy!

    Who would have thought that so much useful support information for an HP printer, interfacing to the latest Microsoft OS, would be available on-line?

    I don’t know about you, Robert, but I am seriously impressed by the Million Voldemort Eyes.

    Now, tell us again. In what way was this a devastating problem at the time? It wasn’t, was it?

    Do us a favour. Read your cites more carefully in future.

  10. DrLoser says:

    How am I locked in to the universe of FLOSS? That’s a strange concept, freedom = lock-in.

    I believe the assertion was “FLOSS and Debian,” Robert. Somehow, you elided “Debian.”

    Well, that’s one thing. And yet it raises an interesting question.

    Have you spent any serious amount of time evaluating the alternatives to Debian?

  11. oldfart coins a term, “locked in to FOSS and Debian linux”.

    How am I locked in to the universe of FLOSS? That’s a strange concept, freedom = lock-in. There are a million ways I am more free with FLOSS than with M$’s crapware riding underneath even if I put FLOSS on top.

    1. terms of the EULA v GPL: connections, remoting, sharing etc.
    2. $price: I have better things to do with $100+
    3. re-re-reboots: I only reboot when I install a new kernel and the Little Woman is away from her desk…
    4. 40K packages updating from the Debian repository, including OS and applications
    5. nothing prevents me running that other OS except the price and disgust with M$’s history of illegal/monpolistic practices
  12. oldfart says:

    “Is that as in “desires and enjoys freedom”?”

    Do you?

  13. ram says:

    “locked in to FOSS” ?

    Is that as in “desires and enjoys freedom”?

  14. oldfart says:

    “The world wants a revolution not lock-in.”

    For someone who is locked in to FOSS and Debian linux, I find that a particularly funny statement.

  15. oldfart says:

    “I mean, if what we say is such baloney then the average consumer and public in general would just ignore us like a loon. ”

    If people can go to the local zoo for entertainment, Dougie, some can come here for the same.

  16. ram says:

    I for one look forward to treating Microsoft users like idiots! Payback time!

  17. oe says:

    “I got off at XP. There were huge problems with each release since then, like lots of printers being cut off by “7” which worked with XP”….stepped off the treadmill at the same time, was thrilled how printers, scanners, pretty much all peripherals, save one USB webcam, worked finally as true plug and play…no more hunt-the-driver-down games…..

  18. dougman says:

    Note: it’s funny that the resident trolls say that this blog and the pro-Linux advocates are full of crap, so I ask, why do you even bother coming here? I mean, if what we say is such baloney then the average consumer and public in general would just ignore us like a loon. However, since the trolls continue, then it just confirms what we say to be true in respect that Linux is the superior way to go in the long-term and the trolls are just defending their “astroturf” and sole source of income, namely being Microsoft.

  19. dougman says:

    http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Printer-All-in-One-Install-Setup/There-s-no-driver-for-my-printer-Now-what/td-p/2257611

    It is well known the M$ works in collusion in cutting off software, so new hardware would be required to be purchased. Imagine an older printer not working, solely from the standpoint as there is no .inf file built for it on the newer OS. However, when used in the latest Linux OS it works just fine, go figure.

    M$ Vista was notorious for doing this which had consumers fuming!

  20. DrLoser wrote, “like lots of printers being cut off by “7” which worked with XP.
    No, there weren’t.”

    I’ve seen them. I’ve dealt with the disappointed users. In one case, “7” brought in a new file/print sharing protocol about which XP knew nothing, and in another case it was a missing driver. M$ would not license the USB-part of a driver for an HP Laserjet printer which worked fine in GNU/Linux. See also, the comments.

  21. DrLoser says:

    Do I hear the word “astroturf” bubbling up in your skinny little throat, Dougie?

    Swallow hard, my man. Swallow hard.

  22. DrLoser says:

    There were huge problems with each release since then, like lots of printers being cut off by “7” which worked with XP.

    No, there weren’t.

  23. DrLoser says:

    Dear Doctor, I (you know who I am, you said so) already offered you a drink. Please make it double.

    A Birmingham pub crawl (plus a Michelin restaurant in Harborne) would do, I think, Deaf Spy. I’m not a cheapskate. We can go Dutch.

    In twenty years of using Microsoft software, I figure I’ve earned enough money off the back of it to splurge £1000 over an evening and not even notice the hole in my finances.

  24. matchrocket wrote, “With each release it gets more convoluted, not less.”

    Oh yes. Each time they added more bloat and complexity and protection for their “IP”, the slaves were thrown into a deeper well. I got off at XP. There were huge problems with each release since then, like lots of printers being cut off by “7” which worked with XP. Ordinary citizens, not already “corrupted” by pogson, told me how much they hated “7” which was supposed to be their salvation. The last installation I ever did of that other OS was supposed to be a “restore” from CD and it took hours and gave less functionality (one of those get XP with right to upgrade to “7” machines). A bog standard inkjet printer had no driver for “7”. HP supplied a driver but M$ would not supply the USB-driver it needed. Damned nuisance, that other OS.

  25. DrLoser says:

    LOL…. well lets see, first there were computer labs with Win-Dohs, then these migrated to labs with laptops, and now of which are classrooms with Chromebooks.

    I am not sure how you can not see that, unless you are being ignorant on purpose.

    If, by “ignorant,” you mean that I haven’t seen it between 2007 and 2014, then yes, Dougie, it was on purpose.

    I avail myself of the finest and most accurate statistics available, to whit: the various graphs of page views (and other measures) on Mr Pogson’s site.

    Generally, and allowing for the occasional confusion between Android and, say, a genuine Linux distro, these tend to show an increase from 2007 to 2014 from ~1% to ~1.5%, desktop-wise. Occasionally, and in remote places like Reunion or countries with a central government IT diktat like Venezuela, they can range from 5% to 10%.

    But, worldwide, Dougie? Still mired in the pits of cheapskates and hobbyists.

    You just aren’t very good at selling this crap, are you?

  26. oldfart, revising history, wrote, “Um don’t you mean that for one vendor(Acer) chromebook sales are up from 10% to 30% from 2013 to 2014?”

    Nope. That’s not what the CEO said. Digitimes reports, “Chen is also optimistic about the Chromebook business as the device’s share in overall notebook shipments already rose from around 10% in 2013 to over 30% currently and will continue to grow in the future.” There’s no indication he was discussing only Acer’s share, but the whole market.

    Want a second source? Gartner wrote back in August, “Sales of Chromebooks* will reach 5.2 million units in 2014, a 79 percent increase from 2013, according to Gartner, Inc. By 2017, sales of Chromebooks are set to nearly triple to reach 14.4 million units.” I think that was before Google started pushing them worldwide and adding performance/features.

    Intellasia reported, “Acer launched its first Chromebook in 2011 and dominated the global Chromebook market in the third quarter of 2014, with about 40 percent market share worldwide, according to tech research firm Gartner. – See more at: http://www.intellasia.net/acer-bids-for-chromebook-projects-in-taiwans-schools-419972#sthash.6xPFidTA.dpuf

    So, it seems Acer was talking about their market share of Chromebooks and Digitimes wrote notebooks. Who knows what was lost in the translation? Still ChromeBooks are growing like Topsy, in education in USA and in business in Asia.

  27. dougman says:

    DrLoser wrote, “you can’t argue that Linux made any inroads into the desktop monopoly worth noting between 2007 and 2014.”

    LOL…. well lets see, first there were computer labs with Win-Dohs, then these migrated to labs with laptops, and now of which are classrooms with Chromebooks.

    I am not sure how you can not see that, unless you are being ignorant on purpose.

  28. dougman says:

    I like to think the Desktop as a has-been, but the space of “things” and “autos” to be the next space that Linux controls.

    http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/workspace/google-introduces-android-auto-platform-makes-cars-smart-148116

    http://www.fastcompany.com/3041104/app-economy/samsungs-100-million-internet-of-things-bet-is-even-crazier-than-you-think

    People use Linux everyday without even knowing it.

  29. DrLoser wrote, “you can’t argue that Linux made any inroads into the desktop monopoly worth noting between 2007 and 2014.”

    Sure, I can. Just check with the desktop on StatCounter:
    You can argue that the share is still small but the rate of growth is phenomenal. The share won’t be small for long. Clearly, FLOSS has left the domain of the computer geeks and is now into the general population of USA, the home of Wintel. That’s weekly data. What do you think those huge spikes mean? Check out the daily data for the last month. ChromeOS in USA has caught up with regular GNU/Linux pretty well. That’s a huge rate of growth, millions of units are shipping globally, cancer for Wintel. Notice that they both have a heartbeat. GNU/Linux is higher on weekends and ChromeOS is higher on weekdays. Wintel is losing at home/school/business/whatever.

  30. Deaf Spy says:

    Dear Doctor, I (you know who I am, you said so) already offered you a drink. Please make it double.

  31. DrLoser says:

    Um don’t you mean that for one vendor(Acer) chromebook sales are up from 10% to 30% from 2013 to 2014?

    Axioms, my dear oldfart. Axioms. Robert, like Euclid before him, is engaged in a purely Scientific study that will Revolutionise the World. Naturally, it is a study well-grounded on Axioms.

    Axiom #1: Skilled graph-drawing demonstrates that ChromeBooks will take 100% of the desktop market by — I don’t have the skill to draw the graph, but something like 2018.
    Axiom #2: The winner in the Chromebook market will be the OEM that churns out the most.
    Lemma A: What? I didn’t mention lemmas? Lemmas are based upon axioms. Let us proceed. From Axiom #1 and Axiom #2, we can clearly see that 100% of the desktop market (date not precisely specified through my own personal graph-drawing incompetence, but 2018 +/- 1 year) will be taken up by Acer ChromeBooks.
    Axiom #3: Once the Sacred Graph is drawn up, no further evidence is necessary. In particular, all consumer choices are pre-ordained. So saith the graph.
    Lemma B: (I did warn you about lemmas) Given lemma A, there is no sensible reason why Acer should offer any other desktop product whatsoever. Therefore, if they do so, it is nothing but a snare and a delusion. Probably intended to confuse and dispirit Microsoft.

    There’s no reason for Robert to declare his axioms and lemmas, of course. Looked at with sufficient care, they fall naturally out of some fundament or other, doesn’t matter which.

    Good. I believe I’ve sorted out that little confusion.

    I’m off to boil some frogs.

  32. DrLoser says:

    The “Perfect Storm” I predicted 7 years ago was just a gentle breeze compared to the current rate of change of IT in the world.

    Others might describe it more accurately as a hopeless list of failed predictions, Robert.

    Major time, energy and money is being invested in making GNU/Linux a choice in selecting an operating system for an OEM product.

    A pure guess, and the results were nothing to write home about.

    The larger market are businesses and consumers. That is where the OEMs will create new markets and break the monopoly on the desktop

    A hopeless failure as a prediction. You can argue that the mobile phone is replacing the desktop wholesale (it isn’t), but you can’t argue that Linux made any inroads into the desktop monopoly worth noting between 2007 and 2014.

    These moves by OEMs are not the whole story. M$ has failed miserably to produce a major release of that other OS since 2001. The Vista is clouded …

    You even outdid SJVN with the hilarious mistiming of this prediction. Let’s see … what happened shortly after August 7th, 2007? Perhaps you were not then as diligent at reading the Tech Press as you are now.

    A bit embarrassing, this one. Not to mention that the 2001 release, disparaged by you as far back as 2007, kept on rolling. Tell us all: how long did Debian Potato last?

    Of course, the world has reason to look for alternatives.

    You keep banging on about this, but there’s precious little evidence that people are listening. They certainly didn’t spend much time listening to you between 2007 and 2014, did they? If only you’d stated your case a little more clearly.

    The SCOG saga is winding down.

    You finally got that one right. Unfortunately for The Cause, it made no difference whatsoever.

    The patent FUD is obviously hollow.

    Still a robust issue to this day. To such an extent that Google paid $12.5 billion for Motorola Mobility, a division that was mostly composed of patents, with a nice little side-line in connecting Dixie cups via lengths of twine.

    There is nothing left to hold back LInux on the desktop now that millions of ordinary folks will have an opportunity to use Linux at work and to choose Linux in the market.

    Nothing left, except that “millions of ordinary folks” (I realise you despise “ordinary folks” and their “ordinary choices” and their “ordinary wage packets” that allow the “ordinary ability” to pay $50 every three years or so for an “ordinary folk desktop experience”) didn’t end up using the Linux desktop, either at work or at home.

    Basically, Robert, in 2007 you were roughly 90% utterly incorrect.

    Any particular reason for us to assume that you are anything better than a Millenarian Preacher who keeps repeating the same old tune in the comforting hope that, by some cosmic accident, he will eventually be right?

  33. Eli Cummings says:

    It is questionable whether Microsoft will ever be able to recover from the damage that Steve Ballmer did to that company.

  34. dougman says:

    You may have missed this Rovert, rather significant:

    Today I was reviewing a Dell laptop, the Precision M3800 Mobile Workstation and I noticed they include a Linux option; what caught me off guard was the Windows option is an extra $100!

    Forgot to mention, that with the extra $100 one could double the RAM in the laptop. See, thats the cost savings of Linux in action.

    http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m3800-workstation/pd.aspx

    Screenshot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qe60gcci9yk83t0/Screenshot%20from%202015-01-27%2018%3A17%3A50.png?dl=0

  35. oldfart says:

    “30% of notebooks are shipping with GNU/Linux. ”

    Um don’t you mean that for one vendor(Acer) chromebook sales are up from 10% to 30% from 2013 to 2014?

    You also failed to mention this:

    “Acer is planning to launch Windows-based smartphones and will showcase the products at Mobile World Congress (MWC) 2015, pairing with its Build Your Own Cloud (BYOC) platform, said Chen during the company’s supply chain conference on January 22.”

    You dont do your cause much good with this bad a misrepresentation of a news report, Robert Pogson.

  36. matchrocket says:

    Windows is just becoming too difficult to maintain. With each release it gets more convoluted, not less. It’s patches more likely to break something rather than fix something. The other factor is in the enterprise. Microsoft has also made the pricing structure in that more convoluted and difficult to maintain. Microsoft is cutting itself to pieces. All their competitors are doing is giving Microsoft’s former customers what they want and need. Simple. No brain buster. But Microsoft doesn’t get it. Their arrogance is digging their grave and they are proving themselves more than willing to jump in.

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