Finally! The Sad Comedy Of Errors In Ukraine Gets On Stage

I wrote months ago that there would be war and we all needed to get involved with smacking down Putin and his goons.“NATO members meeting this week in Wales are expected to create "a very high-readiness force" to deal with Russian aggression in Ukraine and other international conflicts, NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Monday.” After no end of dithering, NATO seems ready to move.

I recommend setting up air/armour/artillery/infantry bases in Ukraine handy to the fighting and take target-practice on those Russian tanks that Putin says are not there. The SAMs need to be knocked out and Warthogs left to roam unhindered over Ukraine. If Putin suddenly realizes there are Russian tanks involved he should be told to pull them out within 8 hours or shut up. Enough dithering.

See Ukraine crisis: NATO to create 'high-readiness force'.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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24 Responses to Finally! The Sad Comedy Of Errors In Ukraine Gets On Stage

  1. ram provided a link with this text: “These shells go through targets, leaving traces of perfectly circular shape.”

    Yes, so how did explosions within the cockpit create inward-opening ragged holes? That’s absolute nonsense published for an uncritical Russian public. All evidence points to shrapnel ripping things apart on a large scale, not armor-piercing rounds from a fighter. The fuselage which this landing intact because a fighter pilot aimed at the cockpit neglects the obvious fact that there were shrapnel holes as far back as the tail and that the area around the fuselage and the wings is the strongest part of the plane. If it breaks, it is always in large chunks. Again, no rational argument, just a conclusion foisted as fact. Here’s a picture of the port wing tip showing shrapnel ripping it up. There was a large explosion near the front of the plane, not a few small holes.

  2. A Pesky Interloper wrote, “Your “link” just makes the number 2010 turn blue, there is no hyper-link”

    Fixed that, sort of… A change of theme has changed the behaviour so I guess we know where the problem lay. Of course there are other problems… The visitor’s UI is a bit crude but then I’m comparing it to the admin’s… Still it works better.

  3. A Pesky Interloper says:

    “2010 was just yesterday for these two.”

    Your “link” just makes the number 2010 turn blue, there is no hyper-link, nothing to be clicked on; you have been told about the dreadful state your website is in and you still refuse to acknowledge it and spell the links out in plain text so we could at least copy and paste them…

    Such as it is, nobody can respond to your statement, since, without the link, nobody can tell what are you talking about.

    “Then there was last year when NK threatened to nuke the Whitehouse. If USA had preemptively attacked many thousands could have died.”

    The “threat” was obviously just hollow posturing, North Korea has no weaponised nuclear devices, nothing that could be flown with a bomber and certainly nothing that could be launched with a missile. In theory they could put a device on a boat and do a kamikaze assault on a port, but who would let their ship close?

    Regarding the preemptive attack, if it would trigger NK-SK war, then millions could die; if it would trigger a war with China, then SK, Taiwan and Japan could fall to their campaign with dozens of millions of casualties, or, alternatively, global nuclear war would kill everyone if US would engage the PLA.

    Any other US-supremacist military fantasies you would care to share with us?

    Also, what has North Korea have to do with the situation in Ukraine?

  4. oiaohm wrote, “quite a few years NK or Sk does not shell each or take hostages.”

    2010 was just yesterday for these two.

    Then there was last year when NK threatened to nuke the Whitehouse. If USA had preemptively attacked many thousands could have died.

  5. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson quite a few years NK or Sk does not shell each or take hostages. The last case of shelling turned out to be a error. Fireworks on the SK side were thought to be weapon fine on the NK side. Hello opps.

    Ok a war zone is not 100 percent deathless. Both a NK or SK have more risk of death crossing the road than being actively mixed up in war.

    Sincerity between Russia and Ukraine is on the same level as NK to SK. NK and SK are only establish because of China and USA working with each other to be the middle.

    Robert Pogson Russia does not need to use nukes to take Ukraine off the face of the map. You need to look up “Father of All Bombs” this is a explosive type bomb.

    You have to remember the Ukraine mess starts with the Ukraine governement ordering the their police/mil to kill protesters and that happening. That was a few thousand deaths in under 1 hour.

    The Ukraine Rebel or possible Russia Mill intentionally killed are in fact inside the Geneva Convention because the people being killed are mil or police so not civilian.

    The aircraft shot down by the Ukraine Rebels was in fact cause by the way Ukraine government assigns transponder ids. You have a fighter jet taking off and you have a civilian aircraft entering airspace. The first one to enter the air gets the first ID and the next one entering the air gets the Next ID. Most sane countries Mil and Civilian aircraft have a different starting number on the transponder ID. So avoiding mistaken identity. Geneva Convention in fact demands that civilian and mil vehicles do display different IDs. So so far Ukraine Government has broken the Geneva convention twice.

    Robert Pogson to be correct NATO mil assistant as a active fighting force really should only come to the Ukraine if the current Ukraine government agrees to go straight to elections.

    Reality here Ukraine has major problems.

    Easterners tried peaceful protesting and got shot in the street for it. Russia could argue its messing in Ukraine to kill off Geneva convention breaking forces. Geneva Convention breaking forces can be killed without trial. Why the classification for Geneva Convention breaking forces are rogue. Due to the fact there order cannot be valid they are killable. This is the big problem Russia may be doing nothing wrong by International law. You are allowed preventive strikes against Rogue forces.

  6. A Pesky Interloper says:

    I recommend setting up air/armour/artillery/infantry bases in Ukraine handy to the fighting and take target-practice on those Russian tanks that Putin says are not there.
    The “target practice” would go both ways, what happens if/when Russian forces cross over into Poland (or Latvia, or Romania)?
    Use nukes in a tactical engagement, thus opening the door for a nuclear exchange that would surely escalate?
    Or simply accept defeat and loss of Polish territory? What amount of lost land would be acceptable? Would the hawks and population frenzied by the war propaganda (people like you, Robert) accept the losses? Or would they demand a “strong response” in a state of total hysteria?
    Questions, questions…

  7. A Pesky Interloper says:

    I wrote months ago that there would be war and we all needed to get involved with smacking down Putin and his goons

    As others said, you are cheering for W.W.3, no-one would survive.

    Consider the following:
    Even a small percentage of existing nuclear arsenal could, if used, cause a “Nuclear Autumn” that would lower worldwide average temperatures enough to severely curtail the global production of food – mass starvation would follow.
    A full scale war would trigger an ice age coupled with an extinction event not seen (well) since the end of the dinosaur era.
    This is due to the burning of cities and industrial objects releasing wast amounts of fine smoke particles into the atmosphere, these particles would persist for years or even decades, blocking out most of the sunlight.
    Nuclear weapons are NOT dangerous due to the explosions or radioactivity (directly, as blast consequence, the US and USSR at the peak of their arsenals could not kill the entire population of each other), rather, they are a form of an ecological catastrophe that would harm everyone even if, say, Americans detonated their bombs on their own soil.

  8. ram wrote, “if World War III breaks out we are all just as dead”.

    As bad as WW III could be (nuclear option), I don’t think Russia will go that route unless NATO actually invades the motherland. I don’t think Russia will go nuclear if NATO moves into Ukraine. The Russians may be crazy but they are not stupid. They are trying for a replay of WW II or the Cold War, not Armageddon.

  9. ram says:

    Right or wrong, if World War III breaks out we are all just as dead! As Tom Lehrer wrote in a song “We all go together when we go”.

  10. oiaohm wrote, ” North and South Korea are officially at war number of deaths per year due to that war is Zero.”

    Nope. Hardly a year goes by that NK doesn’t shell SK and kill a bunch. Then there are boats sunk and hostages taken…

    oiaohm wrote, ” The war crime killing protesters broke the trust in the Ukraine government.”

    Nope. Most Ukrainians try their best to ignore politicians. Russia sent in agent-provocateurs to stir up unrest into rebellion. All the easterners had to do was make their point and wait for the result of the next election. Shooting down planes and arresting hundreds was not the right way to make any point. That’s what the Russians wanted to provoke some outrage by Ukraine’s government in Kiev. A Russian brigade is now in Ukraine and they are killing Ukrainians by the hundreds. This is war, an invasion by Russia. All the rest is just window-dressing. The latest escalation came within hours of Ukraine and Russia agreeing to talks. There is no sincerity on the Russian side.

  11. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson history of the Pacific islands battles teaches you that picking sides is more often than not the worse mistake you can make. If the armies on both sides will obey proper rules of engagement there are more chances for stalemates and more time for diplomacy .

    Robert Pogson people don’t always get killed in war even if a war is still going on. North and South Korea are officially at war number of deaths per year due to that war is Zero. A stalemate where neither side moves and all sides are talking is quite a satisfactory outcome. Gives time for diplomacy. This is why Australia is willing to do both side fairly, You can stop the deaths quicker creating a environment for a willing stalemate. The key word here is fairly those who have committed crimes on either side Australian forces will want them to face the music. Australian commanders would not be taking orders from either government instead just enforcing the rules of war like making sure agreed lines to cease fire at are followed. Lot of case its invalid orders and lack of trust that cause these messes to grow and not allow stalemates to form.

    The lack of trust is why the rebels will not disarm. So first problem in Ukraine is how to get the rebel forces to trust the Ukraine mil and police again. The war crime killing protesters broke the trust in the Ukraine government.

    Robert Pogson this why I am talking about the experience Australia has from the Pacific islands. There are a lot of tribal issues on those island. Lot of cases where trust in an island government has been broken. Rebuilding the trust requires assisting both sides evenly.

    Trust can be rebuilt while forces are not intentionally targeting civilians. If you have a issue of civilians intentionally targeted then you have to pick what ever side will protect the civilians. This is experience.

  12. ram wrote, “I have no idea why so many people in the US, UK, Canada, and Australia want to start World War III.”

    There are multiple reasons. It’s not about WW III. It’s about freedom and escaping Russian imperialism. In Canada, for instance, a lot of Ukrainians fled Stalin’s starving millions of Ukrainians and came to Canada. They know the enemy. It is not maddness to keep Russia in check. United, the world can easily do that without much fighting. Russia is huge but has not enough forces in Ukraine to resist a concerted effort by EU/NATO air-power and Ukrainian boots. If Russia escalates they will cause the war, not EU/NATO. Putin even muttered about going nuclear. He is the mad one and we can’t negotiate with a madman.

  13. oiaohm wrote, “Basically the Ukraine mess is a rental dispute gone really badly south with big powerful weapons at play”.

    Nonsense. The issue is Putin’s ego and restoring Russian empire. Putin doesn’t need huge chunks of Ukraine to use those bases. Look at a map.

    The idea of Australia running both sides of a war is silly. It’s not a game. People get killed in war. In urban warfare, a lot of civilians get killed. The violation of the rules of war/humanity is important but the big issue is does Russia get to undo an agreement it signed to take back the nukes and to keep the port/base in Crimea by force of arms, calling it a rebellion. Putin got away with this before in other places. If he is not stopped now eventually he will want Czechoslovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Poland etc. War is inevitable. It’s the only way Putin will be stopped. Better now than later when there is some hope the present war will be a smaller affair. Arm the Ukrainians and give them air-support. Problem solved. Putin will stop when the body bags pile high in Moscow. He thinks the “West” is soft and won’t fight. He forgets that Russians too have grown soft and civilized. His people want power/territory but not at high cost. Make the cost high enough and Putin will get out.

  14. oiaohm says:

    ram that article over looks a few key points. Russia from a tactical point of view does not want the complete Ukraine. Its the ports in the in the Crimea that are of value to Russia. The rent agreement on the Crimea ports is up and Ukraine was wanting to negotiate a higher pay rate for usage.

    Basically the Ukraine mess is a rental dispute gone really badly south with big powerful weapons at play. The people around the Crimea are use to income and investment from Russia. Yes the protesters killed in the Crimea side of the Ukraine were protesting against the main government kicking the Russia forces out so disrupting their businesses.

    Ukraine police and Mil need some education in the rules of war. More you look at this mess the more UN peace keepers are required with a group to train in the rules of war. Some Ukraine forces need to be prosecuted for criminal acts. Some of the rebels also need to be prosecuted. In fact some of the Ukraine government need to be pulled before the international court for ordering the attack on protesters with live rounds. Maybe then the Ukraine effected would have closure.

    ram you have to remember that Australia is use to dealing with these kinds of messes in the Pacific Islands. Its not that Australia wants to start World War III.

    Australia would be totally against setting up new bases. What want todo is embedding. This is where an Australian Commanders is put in charge of Ukraine forces rebel and government. With the complete objective of teaching each side the formal rules of war. If you can get both sides to play be the rules the death rate drops. Part of the formal rules of war is negotiations and public-ally declaring where the no mans land is so civilians can move out way of the battle. No mans land is where both sides expect to be firing at each other.

    The fact Russia has taken control of the Crimea and is not paying rent on it is a problem. Yes its stealing with weapons. When you have a country stealing with weapons you get worried will the use this again to setting other disputes.

    So we might not have World war III yet but the actions of Russia need to be stopped the actions of the Ukraine government need to be corrected. Finally the rebels need to be carmed. How to pull all this off really talk to Australia. Since Australia has dealt with these kinds of messes successfully. Yes this will require a mixed response.

    1) Order Russia while they are using the Crimea to pay the rent.
    2) Demand UN monitor personal staff embedding Russia and Ukraine forces to monitor and prevent future war crimes.
    3) Start international court actions against those who killed civilian protesters.
    4) allow that for the area to fully peaceful again will take 3 to 4 years.
    5) Avoid invasion force.

    Russia and Ukraine have reasonably functional governments. The rebels not so much. Open up negations with rebels to bring them into some form of formal group with monitors.

  15. ram says:

    I have no idea why so many people in the US, UK, Canada, and Australia want to start World War III. Their “political leadership” is stark raving mad!

  16. Mats Hagglund wrote, “This is a defeated army, that much is clear.”

    The Ukrainian army has some depth. Most troops fail under artillery. Without air-support they don’t have much protection. That’s where NATO can really help, by putting up air-support, taking out the SAMs and hammering those tanks and artillery with rockets and bombs and anti-tank rounds. The Russians should not complain about non-existant tanks being taken out. They have deniability.

  17. Mats Hagglund says:

    Have you ever heard of a commanding officer asking his men whether they want to fight or not? It’s ludicrous. This is a defeated army, that much is clear. And it’s easy to understand how the average grunt feels, too. The average working guy doesn’t have the stomach for killing his own people. That’s not something he’s going to feel good about. He just wants to see the war end and go home, which is why they’re getting whooped so bad. It’s because their hearts aren’t in it. In contrast, the farmers, shopkeepers and miners who make up the militia are highly-motivated, after all, this isn’t some geopolitical game for them. Most of these people have lived in these cities their entire lives. Now they’re watching neighbors get gunned down in the streets or pulling friends out of the wreckage of bombed out buildings. For these people, the war is real and it’s personal. They’re defending their towns, their families, and their way of life. That tends to build resolve and focus the mind.

  18. Mats Hagglund says:

    Their moral is bad, their equipment old, ammunition is low and the entire aim of their campaign is dubious. Now even a few weak counterattacks, the “counteroffensive”, have them on the run.”

    The only thing he could’ve added to the litany is the fact that they are led by the biggest moron to ever hold high office, Petro Poroshenko, the overstuffed buffoon who thinks he’s Heinz Guderian deploying his Panzers through the Ardennes and on to Paris. What a joke!

    The Times even admits that the Ukrainian army is badly demoralized. Take a look at this:

    “Some of the Ukrainian soldiers appeared unwilling to fight. The commander of their unit, part of the Ninth Brigade from Vinnytsia, in western Ukraine, barked at the men to turn around, to no effect. “All right,” the commander said. “Anybody who refuses to fight, sit apart from the others.” Eleven men did, while the others returned to the city.

    Some troops were in full retreat: A city busload of them careened past on the highway headed west, and purple curtains flapped through windows shot out by gunfire.” (New York Times)

  19. kurkosdr wrote, “The whole thing has “CIA” written all over it. A “temporary” unelected regime enstablished and without a parliamentary election date having been set (despite the fact it’s been months since the “revolution” happened).”

    You do remember a little thing like the traitor deciding against EU and causing rebellion, and the little matter of Russia invading Crimea and later a large part of Ukraine. It’s hard to hold an election when passenger planes are being shot down by the Russians over Ukraine, eh? Russia has a good part of a whole army in there.

  20. kurkosdr says:

    “we all needed to get involved with smacking down Putin and his goons”

    The whole thing has “CIA” written all over it. A “temporary” unelected regime enstablished and without a parliamentary election date having been set (despite the fact it’s been months since the “revolution” happened). Said unelected regime is being kept in power for as long as it takes to get the job done (that is, get the Ukraine into the the NATO, without bothering to ask the majority of the population of Ukraine if they want to join the NATO, or even if they want a pro-NATO government). Then, said regime tries to get Ukraine to the EU.

    Then, the CIA plan is to “restore democracy”, which of course will have to honor all kinds of binding agreements with the NATO.

    Here is a thought experiment: Imagine an unelected regime was enstablished in your country, without you being able to verify whether the “revolution” that helped bring it to power was an authentic one or staged. Then said regime doesn’t announce an election date and signs all kind of treaties to break up with NATO and join the BRICS, without bothering to ask the majority if they want that. Would you let it happen? Would you call any NATO forces invading “goons”?

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