WINDOWS 8 SUSPENDED IN CHINA

There are more details on the rationale for banning “8” in the Chinese government.
“Microsoft would no longer open its Windows 8 source code to the Chinese government, however the security scheme of the Windows 8 operating system is designed to provide better access for Microsoft to users’ database. For China it’s a big challenge for our cybersecurity”

  • M$ won’t open the code to the Chinese
  • The Chinese have determined the OS allows M$ good access to users’ information, a security threat to the Chinese government
  • The Chinese are aware that M$ is required to cooperate on spying with the USAian government

The big takeaway is that China is serious about having it’s own OS, probably a GNU/Linux OS they can trust. Goodbye XP. Hello GNU/Linux.

“7”? The cost of migrating to GNU/Linux will be less for the Chinese than migrating to “7” because M$ will want to be paid…

See prime time TV coverage from China: WINDOWS 8 SUSPENSION IN CHINA.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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28 Responses to WINDOWS 8 SUSPENDED IN CHINA

  1. ram says:

    oiaohm’s remarks on China’s “consumer” market are consistent with my observations. Most Chinese workers have their housing and most of their consumer needs met by the organisation they work for.

    Some companies and organisations in China are fairly open about how they operate. See the Behringer website for how that large private company treats their Chinese employees. Look at some major Chinese university websites to see how those state supported organisations provide for their staff. “Salaries” may be relatively low, but the benefits packages tend to be pretty good. It also is an efficient way of operating.

  2. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson the piracy is funny. Microsoft backing piracy in China was more trying to break way into the closed larger section of the market.

    Robert Pogson the way the china market works at first does sound unbelievable. The fact people have company provided PC’s and TV’s what ever is in retail has to be better than what was provided by the companies those people own to in China. The fact to those people the PC and TV are free they are also not justified in spending a lot.

    China has something bit like Australian salary sacrifice that can be used to buy items and avoid some tax in the process.

    The market forces in China are different. Retail figures only get you so far.

  3. oiaohm wrote, “Robert the reason why you don’t see linux retail in China is most Computers in China are not acquired retail.”

    That’s not believable. There are some retail GNU/Linux PCs sold and PRC is not going around supplying XP-machines yet XP is all over. That was rampant illegal copying sponsored by M$…, not Big Brother. The lifetime of those PCs is around ten years, and they will expire soon. GNU/Linux will see a huge XP-replacement in China not because the government wants it or that all kinds of consumers will install GNU/Linux but because OEMs and retailers will supply anything that sells. XP no longer sells. “8” no longer sells. It’s legal “7” or GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux is price-competitive now that M$ demands to be paid. There’s word that M$ accepts $15 for low-end PCs. That’s the only thing that will keep them in Chinese desktop market.

  4. oiaohm says:

    Robert the reason why you don’t see linux retail in China is most Computers in China are not acquired retail. Person works for a communist company in china there house and all its internals including tvs and computers are provided by that company and supported by the company technical staff. Of course the Internet connection for those houses is also free but filtered. Yes china get even more warped that the company you work for can be arranging up your dates and paying for the marriages to breed the next generation of workers.

    There are major differences in how china works internally. Yes Mobile phone ownership in china is basically 100 percent. Yet this is not reflected in webstats.

    China has one of the highest PC ownerships in the world yet the collected numbers of visitors to web stats also don’t reflect this.

    Comparing web stat collected data vs the known data from countries national stats bodies is another thing that shows their numbers as buggy.

  5. oiaohm wrote, “As you can see by the copyright you are not allowed to republish”

    Facts are not copyright-protected. You can have a copyright on a collection but not on individual items. It’s like a phonebook. Even though my number might be in it and the phonebook is copyrighted everyone can use my number any way they want unless banned by legislation like robo-calling.

  6. ram wrote, ” As my customer pointed out, China (then already) had more Linux users than the USA had people. I’m sure that is still true.”

    That would be huge. I don’t see any sign of it in retail sales or web stats. Perhaps that’s only use in business. Consumers/workers/farmers don’t seem to slurp up GNU/Linux there.

  7. Thanks for the link, oiaohm. It’s pretty weird in FireFox. I have to “view source” to find the links inside. Anyway, I find the stats are pretty basic like
    Ownership of Major Durable Consumer Goods
    Per 100 Urban Households at Year-end

    Item 1990 1995 2000 2005 2010 2011
    Computer (set) 9.70 41.52 71.16 81.88

    That shows urban households now own personal computers of one kind or another largely but they are only a fraction of the population. There is ample room for growth in the rural areas. There ownership of computers ranges from 8% in the west to 32% in the East. I don’t see any information about operating systems except that the stats people actually use some GNU/Linux.

    More recent data shows the rural areas are catching up rapidly with 21% ownership of computers and 200%+ mobile phones… This is an extreme example of the smartphone being the new PC. Taking mobile phones+desktops, StatCounter shows 11% of page-views are from Android/Linux smartphones.

  8. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser sorry 5 to 10 percent is kinda wrong. Majority of PC owned in China in fact own to Government or to China Government wholly owned companies. So could be as high as 60 to 70 percent. Why so high. The employees basically own to the companies. Everything they need is provided by those companies.

    Sorry the 5 to 10 percent is a joke of idea.

    DrLoser China is still a communist country for the majority of the population.

    5 to 10 percent is the number you expect for a non communist country of PC controlled by government ideals and selections.

    Sorry 5-10 percent is a incorrect guess. Ownership information on PC does exist for china. DrLoser keep on pushing I will bring the China statistics collection body on top of you.

    Yes China does have a body that does ground surveys to collect data on ownership.

    http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/ndsj/2012/indexeh.htm
    The exact answer to how many PC in china running what OS is in this. As you can see by the copyright you are not allowed to republish. Yes my 60 to 70 percent is not a guess. China is one of the few places you can get very good data.

  9. ram says:

    When I was in China (PRC) I didn’t see any Microsoft machines in use except for some test gaming platforms at some computer exporters. Linux was already then huge in China. As my customer pointed out, China (then already) had more Linux users than the USA had people. I’m sure that is still true.

  10. wolfgang says:

    …wolfgang guess…

    not really needed to guess, just pay attention to obvious. wolfgang use phone, tablet, laptop, and desktop. sometimes use what is at hand, but mostly do certain things with certain devices. use phone to call people mostly. many times use for photos from facebook, now and then tweet. on road use to get restaurant opinion. always quick stuff.

    Use desktop for real heavy duty stuff like programming for own amusement or handling medicare cases for volunteer work. use laptop in field locations for same things.

    use tablet for amusement. wifi only but can see hulu or Netflix or prime movie or tv show. also news show from local stations with app.

    statcounter not catch very much of any of this, I think. statcounter only catch people who put statcounter on own website and not google or twitter or facbook or anything else big. maybe pogson use statcounter on this site and warp answer towards linux use.

  11. wolfgang wrote, ” funny chart show that android only .4% used in china when maybe 1000 billion phones sold each year with android”

    Look at desktop+mobile phones OS in China.
    9% Android/Linux. That’s probably 20 million phones. We know there are a lot more than that. Somehow StatCounter doesn’t count the share correctly or indeed folks view fewer pages with smartphones… Your guess is as good as mine in that.

  12. wolfgang says:

    …Chinese negotiations…

    furor all due to politics. yanks claim chinamen stealing good stuff by hacking and china just snorting in bier. funny chart show that android only .4% used in china when maybe 1000 billion phones sold each year with android and 999 billion made somewhere in china. surprised that chinamen not much bigger factor. maybe cannot afford data plan!

    it seems like everyone have to run around robin hood barn to explain why statistics not show favorite theory and yet keep using statistic. why not just watch how much money Microsoft make and how much money google make and how much money Samsung make and how much money apple make? that pretty much account for all money being made from computers, phones, and tablets.

  13. Yonah wrote, “Typical Chinese negotiation style.”

    That assumes the Chinese want to have insecure IT. Why would any country accept insecure IT? Why would any country negotiate a lower price for insecure IT? That’s just crazy and the Chinese are not crazy. What is curious is that they still allow M$ to do business in China. I believe M$ should be treated as a criminal organization, not a normal business.

  14. Yonah says:

    Typical Chinese negotiation style. They’ll tell you, “Forget it, no sale, we’re buying something else.” Yet whether or not a counteroffer is made you can eventually expect them to return minutes, days, weeks, or months later with new terms and absolutely no acknowledgement of the previous impasse. If you expect negations with Chinese to be straightforward, you’re going to have a bad time.

  15. DrLoser says:

    I’m going to help you, oiaohm, by completely ignoring the rest of the gibberish in your latest post.

    Did the tin-foil hat slip?

    So, let’s get on with your daily insanity:

    I would never attempt to guess a countries usage without some usable data. Loser only Trolls guess numbers without some backing data.

    Do you have “usable data,” oiaohm? I think not. I might be wrong. Perhaps you flit from Venezuelan government offices to PRC government offices as the Magic Counting Fairy takes you?

    Obviously, the Magic Counting Fairy only operates at weekends (cf your comments on Venezuela, although I wouldn’t be surprised to see you come up with that idiocy re. China)

    Look. This is very simple. I was prepared to get slammed for pointing out that the graph at the top of this page is not exactly a poster child for domestic Linux usage in mainland China. That’s fine. Slam me for it.

    But, and this is a big but, I was the first person on this thread to point out that PRC government support could easily amount to between 5% and 10% Linux desktop usage in China.

    If I’m a troll, I’m not supposed to say that. But it’s a distinct possibility.

    And I offered, oiaohm, I offered you the chance to pick a different percentage as a basis. I offered you the chance to link to whatever guesstimate source you can find on PRC government desktop usage.

    Did you do that? No.

    Why? Because you’re an ignorant canting fool who can’t even tell when somebody else is broadly agreeing with your figures.

    Go away, oiaohm. Go away.

  16. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson filtering out tracking/stats sites does not block site access in most cases. It is a insanely rare site you have to make exception for so it displays.

    There’s truth to that but some government PCs do have a job of surfing the net for surveillance of social sites, police investigation, and just plain old communication with citizens.
    Problem here you can do 99 percent+ of this with stats/tracking collection sites blocked. Its a very rare site that fails to work because statscounter or netapplications or any other stats/tracking site is blocked. So small that you can special condition white-list. The end user sees nothing different if they are blocked. Yes you can filter the tracking bit.

    Lot of sites find over 50 percent of their users are using advertisement blocking that also includes tracking site blocking. So even in the home market there is a black hole.

    Loser read what you said again.
    But obviously the PRC government departmental use of Linux isn’t going to show up very heavily on StatsCounter, because the day-to-day usage is completely different.
    Loser this suggest is going to show. The reality is never going to show. Home usage of government officials maybe. Work usage of the same government official its zero. Due to the fact as I just stated to Robert with stats sites block it does not hinder web access. Hinders those attempting data collection and web site runners who don’t run there own on site stat collection to know their visitors. End user wanting to view the page since its normally substitution the site renders perfectly.

    Your 5 to 10 percent usage is another wild guess from you Loser your history of wild guesses means we should not trust it at all. Come on your guess from model computer a collage was using that they did not have a Linux Computer lab when it is documented as the case.

    I would never attempt to guess a countries usage without some usable data. Loser only Trolls guess numbers without some backing data.

  17. DrLoser says:

    Do you actually ever bother reading a single word anybody else says, oiaohm? It’s a worrying trend. Robert explains basic physics to you: you ignore him. Dougman explains whatever Dougman is capable of explaining to you: you … well, I guess you do what everybody else does, and ignore him too.
    Bad example. Here’s a better one:

    Loser PRC Government usage is zero on all stats collection sites.

    Did I say otherwise? What I actually said was:

    But obviously the PRC government departmental use of Linux isn’t going to show up very heavily on StatsCounter, because the day-to-day usage is completely different.

    That was the very basis of my guesstimate at a government-based floor of at least 5%, possibly 10% Linux usage.
    We can differ on the percentage, but isn’t it quite obvious that you’re repeating the same thought I had, whilst not having the basic honesty to accept that I said it first?

    Webstats from china you can fairly much say is the home user market only.

    Which is almost word-for-word what I did, in fact, say. You really don’t read very well, do you?

    Again you are talking out your hat Loser without understanding the ground conditions.

    As clearly demonstrated by the above, oiaohm, my understanding of the “ground conditions” is virtually identical with yours. At least my hat is white, rather than made out of tin foil.

    Oh, and Robert: my point wasn’t to “flog a dead horse.” It was to high-light that your graph purports to show this dead horse in mid-flogging, which seems inappropriate to your argument.
    As for this “A fluctuation of a fraction of a percent is many millions of PCs?” True.
    But your graph shows fluctuations both up and down. They’re quite wild fluctuations.
    Are we to presume that, once every two weeks, the Chinese masses install Linux on their XP machine? And that a week later, they throw the machine in the tip (or reimage it with XP)? And that a further week later, they dig the machine back out of the tip (or XP-ness) and reimage it with Linux?
    I’m having a hard time connecting this hypothesis with reality.
    A couple of other things about that graph. You don’t mention it, but I assume */Linux is an additive representation of Gnu/Linux and Android/Linux. You didn’t mention it, and I will attribute that to a momentary lack of clarity.
    Now, on that assumption, we see two roughly comparable lines: one for desktops(etc) and one for phones, specifically Android phones.
    Even if I accept your up-tick down-tick hypothesis for millions, tens of millions, of Chinese switching their preferences in a mere matter of days, I find it even more unlikely that there are (tens of) millions of Chinese Android phone users who do that.
    It’s a bit of a rubbish graph all round, isn’t it?

  18. dougman says:

    Re: Linux sites were blocked.

    People would scoff when I said that M$ was trying to implement a drivers license of sort for the internet, and of course they would never use it to their benefit. *Rolls-eyes*

    The thing that bothers me this scheme ‘license’ is that it purports to convert a previously so-called ‘illegal’ activity, such as browsing on the web, into a ‘legal’ measure.

    http://business.time.com/2010/01/30/drivers-licenses-for-the-internet/

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/pilot-testing-drivers-licenses-internet-rolls-two-us-states/
    Eh.

  19. DrLoser, beating a dead horse, wrote, “around 1% to 2%.
    As your ill-chosen graph demonstrates rather forcefully.”

    We’ve seen repeatedly that web-stats don’t show anything like the “truth”. The graph does show dramatic changes in a short period of time. That can’t happen without a breakdown by StatCounter or a larger installed-base peaking out through the filters. China has as many legacy PCs as USA. A fluctuation of a fraction of percent is many millions of PCs. They are out there but not being counted usually. A similar thing happened in Canada recently. We were up to 5% briefly but now we are back to “status quo”. What’s with that? I know there are hundreds of PCs not being counted in the schools where I’ve worked. It’s easy to see many more. How does StatCounter see a hundred thin clients behind one IP address? What do they make of a few pages loading frequently, like the start page of the browser? Not on their list? It doesn’t exist.

  20. oiaohm wrote, “Really everyone has to ask why any government computers world wide show up on web stats. Are their IT Officers Lax”.

    There’s truth to that but some government PCs do have a job of surfing the net for surveillance of social sites, police investigation, and just plain old communication with citizens. A government that blocks the web is not really serving its citizens. Suppose a citizen wants to complain about some commercial site. Should the government be unable to check it out or insist on everything being filed as paper? That would be silly. The web is like air these days. It’s everywhere, even in government. I did work in a government that had a “whitelist”. You could hardly surf anywhere without having to emit a request to whitelist a site. You could tell the site existed via Google but you couldn’t surf to it without permission. Most */Linux sites, for instance, were blocked but all of M$’s crap was OK by them… It’s a silly concept that a government will know all the good sites but it happens all the time that bureaucrats create a list of something and to them nothing exists that’s not on that list. I’ve had jobs that didn’t exist according to classification by Canadian government “jobs bank”… Oh, welders and plumbers exist but specialists in this that or the other go into some formless “other” category, making the classification useless for millions.

  21. oiaohm says:

    Loser PRC Government usage is zero on all stats collection sites. Mandatory proxies with filters to prevent it for Government confidentiality. Places like statscounter record every page with their tracker bit on you have visited. So 100 percent migration to Windows or 100 percent migration to OS X or 100 percent migration Linux by PRC Government will do nothing to the numbers because those computers are never counted.

    Again you are talking out your hat Loser without understanding the ground conditions. By the way some ISP’s inside china apply those filters to all their client base.

    So we only see a subset of the population in China in webstats. Gets worse companies with close contracts with China are required to install the same filtering to prevent collection by webstats. So in china all of eductation and all of governement and a good block of business are all missing from webstats about China. If you wanted to list all the markets Linux would most likely dominate first you have taken out most of them.

    Webstats from china you can fairly much say is the home user market only.

    Really everyone has to ask why any government computers world wide show up on web stats. Are their IT Officers Lax???

  22. DrLoser says:

    Er, what, was that you, Dougie?
    I was actually touched by the fact that you came out with something other than a knee-jerk reaction.
    This could be the start of a beautiful friendship …

  23. dougman says:

    “Why won’t M$ allow them to examine “8″?”

    Because the Chinese government used the source code in its attacks against M$, Google and other companies worldwide. Only two Chinese companies were licensed to access the source code and in turn they turned it over to the government for nefarious purposes.

  24. DrLoser says:

    And a nice attempt to divert from my argument, but I’m afraid it still stands.
    PRC Government use of Linux: a potential 5-10%. Probably won’t show up on the stats, but it will still be there.
    The rest of the Chinese population? As usual for the average man in any street anywhere, around 1% to 2%.
    As your ill-chosen graph demonstrates rather forcefully.

  25. DrLoser says:

    So should “7″ but the Chinese have examined the code. Why won’t M$ allow them to examine “8″?

    Possibly because of the PRC military government organisation alluded to here? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-21502088

    Who knows, Robert? Perhaps M$ gave it their best shot and were warned off by people who actually care about war via internet insecurity? I mean, seriously, I don’t know and you don’t know. But of the two of us, I suspect I am the less biased.

  26. pogson says:

    This not just about government. The whole world is aware that NSA/M$ is an enemy of free people. The government of China is interested in protecting all Chinese users of IT. This about economics, privacy, security, espionage and cyber-warfare. “8” should be banned as dangerous/defective/insecure for consumers, professionals, businesses, governments, everyone. So should “7” but the Chinese have examined the code. Why won’t M$ allow them to examine “8”?

  27. DrLoser says:

    At first I was inclined to believe that you included that graph as a joke, Robert. It’s completely divorced from your argument, isn’t it? I mean, the combined trough for All/Linux over the last year or so is roughly 1.65%, and the combined peak is roughly 2.2%, on a quick squiz.

    And then I realised: this is a “teaser” lead into the next article, isn’t it? The one where you point out that StatsCounter is unreliable in a number of markets, and particularly in a government-dominated market like China.

    I’d agree with that argument (and I’m sort of apologetic that I pre-empted it). From your reporting recently, it seems that the PRC government is concerned for security, and the PRC government is the intended consumer of one or more Official PRC Linuxen.

    Now, that would presumably be quite a large number, say from 5% to 10% of installed PCs. Nothing to sniff at … small security joke there … but irrelevant to the rest of the Chinese market.

    Which might also be moving towards Linux, for all I know. But obviously the PRC government departmental use of Linux isn’t going to show up very heavily on StatsCounter, because the day-to-day usage is completely different.

    I’d suggest we look at this market, in particular, as (say) a 7.5% flat base (government usage) and whatever else shows up on StatsCounter. I suspect this will still be an impressive number: it will almost certainly beat the Chinese market for Windows 8, for example.

    Your thoughts?

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