Chip! Chip! Chipping Away At Wintel

The last obstacles to widespread offering of */Linux to consumers have been pushed aside with Android/Linux devices and Chromebooks but now Google has figured out how to push M$ aside (a bit) on business desktops. There, M$ has businesses locked in with all kinds of business-centric software that is only available on TOOS (That Other OS). Google is getting together with VMware to offer those applications on Chromebooks. Whoohoo!
“Google Chromebooks can save businesses about $5,000 per computer when compared to traditional PCs. Chromebooks are designed for the way people use computers today and are a secure, easy and cost-effective solution to help organizations embrace a new way of doing business. Through our partnership with VMware, businesses can now capitalize on these advantages with access to legacy applications, data and desktops they need to keep employees productive.”

Lest there be any confusion, this solution envisions allowing software to run on a server somewhere dealing with users out there using Chromebooks. “Lowest cost of delivery – open source based technology eliminates MS licensing fees from the cost of hosting desktops, no third party software to manage” (VMware Horizon DaaS Platform). This will hurt M$’s enterprise bottom line if businesses go this way. This will bring more FLOSS and */Linux to the desktops and servers of big businesses. It’s all good.

See News Release from VMware.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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67 Responses to Chip! Chip! Chipping Away At Wintel

  1. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang what you are failing to understand is influence is key. In the IT world without influence your cost of operations go up and price of failure goes up massively.

    Take google with chromebooks to get them on-shelf google had to pay hardware makers money. Until the influence/acceptance in the market was large enough.

    http://mrpogson.com/2014/02/24/chromebooks-blossom/

    Yes multi billion dollars in increase outlays.

    wolfgang you are saying Microsoft cannot fall quickly. This is where you are so wrong. Its about 2.5 billion per item to shelf. Failed product costs closer to 4 billion in disposal.

    The major reason mostly why Linux Desktop have not got on retail is influence. Particularly no one to pay the money to bribe into production and onto shelf when you lack influence.

    Microsoft has had a very smooth ride up until now. Yes a model where everyone pays them for licenses and they don’t have to pay out.

    The model those without major influence have todo and this has include Apple and Google. Is pay so much up front for the devices to be produced then take a percentage of the sale price to recover their input money.

    Microsoft total income for the year at max is 100 devices. This will be a major drop in Windows PC diversity.

    With Windows 8 Microsoft forced OEM to pay for lots in advance. So its the OEM left with the bill of the Windows 8 flop.

    wolfgang do you serous-ally think OEM and hardware makers will keep on being left holding the bag. No right. They will make Microsoft hold it. They will make Microsoft pay if their product is a failure.

    As yet Microsoft has not 100 percent run out of influence but they are getting down right close.

    wolfgang serous-ally how much money would Microsoft make if all OEM boycott them. This is the problem. Microsoft tide can turn very quickly. When the tide does turn cost of operations for Microsoft will go up massively. IBM has proven a company can live through this process. But the result is a lot weaker company.

    wolfgang IBM went from a position like where is Microsoft was to facing possible bankruptcy in 6 months. Mostly because IBM did not quite see the tide had turned and directly tried to fight it and saved self by working out they had to just go with it and restructure.

    When Microsoft runs out of influence it will be a serous test of Microsoft Management. Microsoft Management handle it wrong they could be a non existent company in 12 months. That is all the money Microsoft has if they decide to fight the tide.

    Sun Micro-system was a company that from the start just when with the tide. Microsoft does that they could be around for another 30 years as a minority. Maybe able to get feet back under them.

    This is why I am not predicting Microsoft death. I am only predicting Microsoft is going to have a lot harder time.

  2. wolfgang says:

    …influence…

    maybe assume for moment that you are sage analyst of business and not just clumsy schafskopf that you look like here. are you the only one who sees this? ach nein! many money people who have real skin in game know lots about how business work, too. what are they doing?
    in past year or so, stock for microsoft is up 30% or more, much better than my 401k, and they not worried about influence or what you think. more and more and better and better is what they think. you have long wait for microsoft flop.

  3. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang I am seeing that Microsoft will be forced to evolve into something else in the very short term. Like think of the surface tablet’s and acquiring Nokia and xbox items.

    This moves the liability. Hardware makers are being able to more and more push the Liability back on to the OS maker for the failures. Greed and influence make the world go round.

    Microsoft runs out of influence the only items containing Microsoft OS that will be on the shelf will be the ones Microsoft has 100 percent liability for. If they fail to sell Microsoft will have to pick up the disposal bill.

    wolfgang you keep on thinking I am predicting that Microsoft will disappear. I am not predicting that at all.

    Hardware makers will take back there roles as masters with min risk.

    wolfgang the world is changing.

    Wolfgang the amount of influence directly effects how much money someone should risk making items to support your production. Android has very good market influence at the moment so worth risking some capital on.

  4. wolfgang says:

    …very interesting…

    but mostly nonsense, I think. some day in far future, Microsoft will disappear and become part of something else. far, far future I think. you make up reasons to suit your hope that they flop sooner, but how long have you been waiting? I like nexus and windows 8.1 laptop both. wife like iPhone, too. good for me.

  5. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang there is a base rule. BIll Gates stated it a long time. A OS including driver development for hardware can only be a max of 10 percent of the retail price of the hardware. Any more and you pressure the hardware maker.

    Yes its the dropping PC price is now starting to catch up with Microsoft as well.

    The netbook 25 dollar XP license was meant to be a temp measure. wolfgang yet now Microsoft is back to the same stunt problem now there influence is now weaker. With the Netbook Microsoft was able to define screen size and memory limits and other things to change the define of the device.

    This time around weaker influence all Microsoft can do is define purchase price tag. Question is how long can Microsoft even apply this influence.

  6. wofgang wrote, “not best evidence.”

    Put up or shut up! Where is your evidence that retailers are not offering GNU/Linux in China? There’s more where that came from. and here. Check out this video on YouTube. Wolfgang is just full of negative thoughts…

  7. wolfgang’s nearly on the mark when he wrote, “margin not right measure for Microsoft”.

    That used to be true. Lately their margins have fallen precipitously because they are actually having to work to sell the licences that people used to line up to get previously.

    Consumer licensing revenue Q4 2013 was $5.384billion
    Consumer licensing operating expenses Q4 2013 was $3.178billion
    That left operating income of only $2.642billion. (That doesn’t add up but is part of the smoke M$ lays down…)

    In the good old days, say Q4 2008, operating income was $2.781billion in the client division from revenue of “only” $3.85billion. They were getting 75% of the revenue to spend. Now they are getting only about 50%. A legitimate business might be happy with 50% but of course M$ are a bunch of greedy bastards being cut down to size. M$ has been rumoured to be cutting licensing fee by 70% for small cheap computers… That will hurt the bottom line even more. Of course, M$ can give away the OS or pay people to use it as long as business remains on the hook. That is a temporary situation. You can bet all those employees used to FLOSS in the real world will be demanding to use more FLOSS at work.

  8. wolfgang says:

    …margins to fall …

    margin not right measure for Microsoft. somewhere around 100%. no real cost in shipping license. I think you mean revenues fall, but they fall slower than volume of pcs fall. I think Microsoft just trying to goose market into motion like when they did same thing for netbooks.

  9. wolfgang says:

    …have pictures …

    odd picture of store, if really store. look like lady with tight hair and glasses. also look like Ubuntu press release. not best evidence.

  10. wolfgang wrote, “if people not buy windows desktop or laptop, they will not buy linux laptop either.”

    Then why has M$ just cut prices on their low-end devices? M$ would not do that if folks weren’t buying GNU/Linux on those devices, would they? Expect margins to fall once again.

  11. wolfgang wrote, “I have never been there to look. have you?”

    I sent spies but they let me down. We do have pictures from Dell however with 1000+ stores in China.

  12. wolfgang says:

    …store with chromebook has gnu/Linux on shelf…

    they not know it, though. maybe you should go tell them. as aside, I was in big box store two days ago and saw chromebook on display. so I thought I would give a look to see what fuss was all about.
    sadly, it power on and say no network available. I poke on it and clerk come by to chat me up and he say is only good for internet, but internet pretty much good for everything. he ask if I ever use iPad and I say I have nexus instead and he say it just like almost the same thing except only apps from google and all look like web page. he said nexus probably just as good and better for Netflix and hulu and youtube.
    yesterday I was at best buy to get filter for refrigerator and decide to look at their stuff. guy there had secret wifi code to let Samsung chrome book work and he demonstrate.
    I think chromebook more or less just like tablet with bigger screen and nice keyboard. clumsy ox when compared with nexus, though.
    it is very much like tablet for apps, but not smooth to use like nexus. you have to have wifi or pay for data plan for phone separately. I think it like combo sports car and dump truck. not so hot for either job.

  13. wolfgang says:

    …Linux on shelf in China…

    you say, but I have never been there to look. have you? hard to find in downtown Detroit still.

  14. wolfgang says:

    …denying decline…

    did not deny anything, just remark that decline in pc compensated by rise in other products and overall result is overall gain. pc volume declining a little due to people like phones and tablets a lot and Microsoft not much of a factor there. interesting thing is that pc volume decline higher than windows revenue decline shows good profit business still for windows. consider that big decline in pc volume work against linux, too. lower tide strand all boats the same. if people not buy windows desktop or laptop, they will not buy linux laptop either.

  15. oiaohm wrote, “The big question is when will Linux make a push at the general Desktop not targeted segments.”

    True. This could happen any time soon because many OEMs have shipped GNU/Linux units. The last obstacle is space on all the retailers’ shelves. That’s already happened in Brazil, India, China and Malaysia. The rest of the world has seen Android/Linux and loved it. There’s no reason GNU/Linux should not be offered. M$ has been forced to drop prices to compete. They must see GNU/Linux as an imminent threat.

  16. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang Please be more exact.

    GNU/Linux if you like it or not Chromebook is a GNU/Linux. In fact switch Chromebook to developer mode and do a emerge firefox or equal. Yes find out under it skin is a standardish Gentoo Linux. Every shop with a Chromebook has a GNU/Linux on the shelf.

    I think you need to find a new term. wolfgang.

    wolfgang sorry year of the Linux Desktop could never fully happen without hardware maker support. The tide has changed recently. But for different groups there have been year of the Linux Desktop every year over the last 15 years.

    The big question is when will Linux make a push at the general Desktop not targeted segments.

  17. wolfgang wrote, “I looked at the dell website just now and they now offer 4 choices for operating system. they have windows 7, windows 7 pro, windows 8, and windows 8.1.”

    Strange, when I look at it I see Ubuntu GNU/Linux… Heck. Dell even has their own repository of Debian packages. That’s for servers, I guess, but it is interesting.

    Dell.com yields lots of search results for Linux:

    workstations and notebooks

    Dell also sells Alienware X51 with Ubuntu GNU/Linux.

  18. wolfgang wrote, of GNU/Linux on retail shelves, “where is that?”

    Brazil, India, China, Malaysia,… to name a few. A better question might be where isn’t GNU/Linux available on retail shelves? Don’t say USA, UK, France, or Germany…

  19. wolfgang wrote, “linux people been saying wait till next year for maybe 20 years now”.

    I’ve been saying it only for a few years now and it is happening. Denial is just the first stage of grieving. I like numbers. If you know what you are describing and can describe it with numbers your knowledge is real, not imaginary. How long has wolfgang and others been denying the declining volume of licences sold, revenue and profitability of M$’s client division?

  20. wolfgang says:

    …a long time ago…

    linux people been saying wait till next year for maybe 20 years now. never happen. you likely die before microsoft. time will tell.

  21. wolfgang says:

    …gnu/linux on retail shelf…

    where is that?

  22. wolfgang says:

    …my local walmart…

    you buy your pcs at walmart? I would never guess that! I always buy mine from dell. I looked at the dell website just now and they now offer 4 choices for operating system. they have windows 7, windows 7 pro, windows 8, and windows 8.1.

  23. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang reality you would not use openoffice. OpenOffice is bad at opening ooxml compared to Libreoffice.

    of course. what else would people care about? if people wanted to use open office instead of windows office, then they could do it with windows, verstehen?
    LOLOLOL HA HA HA. What have you been smoking. TCO prevents this.

    If you are hosting Libreoffice on Linux server than Windows Server is cheaper no cals. Linux provided LibreOffice supports as many users as the hardware can handle.

    wolfgang IBM white paper a long time ago 80/20 is the expected ratio. Some of the issues at Munich the issues now is Munich is 90/10.

    This is still a case that Microsoft income is going to be cut by over half from enterprise.

    That is right you can ship 4 something other than windows to every 1 windows machine. This is what IBM white paper worked out a long time ago. The techs IBM covered in that white paper are only now starting to be major-ally deployed. Yes an over 10 year old white paper.

    it is a big confusion job to try to use windows program on Linux. who wants the grief?
    Reality a lot do. Simple issue here is some of your old 9x and 3.11 in house applications only work under wine. They don’t work under 2000 or newer.

    With wine not truly supporting multi user and requiring hacks we do get a lot of direct chat to heads of departments deploying wine. Just because you don’t I can 100 percent assure you wine is enterprise deployed. Wine is way simpler to snapshot applications state than windows.

  24. wolfgang wrote, “stores still full of windows computers”.

    My local Walmart used to have multiple aisles dedicated to Wintel. Now there are a few notebooks, and, a few desktops still in the box. Now there is much more room given to small cheap computers running Android/Linux.

    wolfgang wrote, “more smartphones and tablets being produced than before because tablets and smartphones are popular with people. nothing to do with windows for or against.”

    Why aren’t stores stocking those machines with M$’s software? Why aren’t consumers buying those machines with M$’s software? Because they cost more and do less. Where retailers put GNU/Linux on retail shelves, they sell.

  25. wolfgang says:

    …legacy windows applications…

    of course. what else would people care about? if people wanted to use open office instead of windows office, then they could do it with windows, verstehen?
    influence is stupid concept you dreamed up on your own. nobody believes that kind of theory.
    it is a big confusion job to try to use windows program on Linux. who wants the grief?

  26. wolfgang says:

    …users unhappy, makers unhappy, companies unhappy…

    you say that but stores still full of windows computers. are stores stupid? makers still making windows computers and not Linux computers. are makers stupid? companies and governments still buying windows computers, even München using some windows computers.

    more smartphones and tablets being produced than before because tablets and smartphones are popular with people. nothing to do with windows for or against.

  27. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang blackberry is an example of what happens when you don’t have influence. Blackberry is trying an Android compatibility layer that is fairly much doomed as well.

    Yes supporters of the Windows Phone are also talking about the desperation option of the Android compatibility layer. The reality google play access will do this in just like it has on blackberry.

    wolfgang a flopped Item can take years to disappear off shelf. I notice you said you saw a HTC Windows Mobile phone. You are aware HTC has not produced a new one of those from a production line for 12 months. Yes its flopped that bad that retailers are stuck with inventory they cannot move. This also makes retailers unlikely to order more.

    Ubuntu is having to battle the influence of carriers. Ubuntu is not really having to battle the influence of hardware makers that much. Why Ubuntu and Android both use exactly the same hardware and drivers due to same kernel and libhybris. Without android there is no way Ubuntu would have enough influence to attempt to get off the ground without being able to pay for production completely themselves.

    wolfgang exactly where do you get the idea that Linux cannot run old software. 0install, NIX, Chroot all different ways of running old software on new Linux systems.

    If you mean legacy windows applications. Big bad news wine and windows run about the same number of applications. Yes there are cases of windows applications that will no longer run on current day windows but run fine under Windows.

    And as Robert Pogson said lots of parties are currently not happy. Microsoft happiness rate around OEM’s is at a all time low.

  28. wolfgang wrote, “makers oblige and use genuine Microsoft software and everyone happy”.

    OEMs unhappy with tiny margins.
    Consumers unhappy with PCs that slow down and pick up malware like a carpet picks up lint.
    Organizations unhappy with huge per-seat costs to acquire and operate PCs.

    That’s why way more smartphones and tablets are being produced than notebooks with that other OS. Now everyone is happy except M$ and sycophants.

  29. wolfgang says:

    …windows phone has flopped…

    I say yes, too, but floppy phone available at local stores for ATT, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile on nokia, htc, and Samsung phones. read other place here about how Ubuntu working real hard to get to same flop and have long way to go today to get there. I saw article where windows phone now ahead of Obama favorite blackberry phone. even flop making some splash.

    you kidding yourself about influence and other clap trap, too.

  30. wolfgang says:

    …people are forced…

    very interesting thesis, but not really true. you say you have better idea and so do some others, but water seek its own level and you get all tired out swimming upstream.

    one time apple and radio shack had most of business and then along come IBM with pc. people like it for business and buy lots of them and want to take them home and clone makers oblige and use genuine Microsoft software and everyone happy. people still mostly happy now and sales still huge. how many have to be happy for you to say it’s ok?

    no one forced to buy anything. just want to buy to be like everyone else. they do not want to be different. different look like geek or nerd and laughed at.

    if computer manufacturer use Linux people cannot use with old software. If people find out about cheap substitute for office like open office, they can use with windows, too. what’s the problem?

  31. oiaohm says:

    why do you care anyway? whether money and profits coming in door are licenses or services or royalty payments, who really cares? more and more keep coming, that is fact.
    You are missing it. Its all about Influence.

    Being a company making profit from a huge stack of patents does not give a company very much influence over what happens.

    licenses is about volume more than the license it self. Larger you market share the larger you influence over what happens. A closed source OS has to replace its numbers as hardware dies. So as more and more people use computers number of licenses going out door should remain increasing. Unless of course something is eating Microsoft lunch and Microsoft influence is become weaker.

    more sales with more profit not look like sign of trouble.
    This is not exactly true. Like Windows Phone it has flopped. It does not have the market control to get hardware makers to produce drivers for it.

    The question is can Microsoft keep on going if its influence drops too low. The answer is no it cannot. Play-station 4 is not using a Freebsd kernel for no reason. Sony no longer had enough influence to get video card makers to decanted time designing drivers for their custom core.

    Bill gates and Steve Ballmer remaining rich I don’t care about.

    Without influence even the xbox game solutions are in trouble.

    wolfgang this is why you are not getting anywhere with Robert or Me. We are interested in the numbers from the Microsoft blance sheets that directly link to the future influence of Microsoft.

    Please note Microsoft providing services what exact use is that if everyone is using android and google services are integrated.

    wolfgang what I am interested in is who is controlling the OS that is the gateway to everything else. We are very quickly are going to get to almost 50/50 split between Microsoft and Google.

  32. wolfgang wrote, “whether money and profits coming in door are licenses or services or royalty payments, who really cares?”

    I really care that ordinary people are forced to use software that traps them into supporting M$’s greed. That’s totally unnecessary and very inefficient. All these $billions that you care about could be spent on stuff people really need like hardware. Monopoly is just not the right thing to do in IT. FLOSS is freeing people from that racket.

  33. wolfgang says:

    …Microsoft in trouble…

    you only hope is so. why do you care anyway? whether money and profits coming in door are licenses or services or royalty payments, who really cares? more and more keep coming, that is fact. more sales with more profit not look like sign of trouble. even then bill gates and steve ballmer could lose more than half of money and still be billionaire and live like king faoruk.

  34. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang that figure you are quoting is not license revenue.
    http://www.microsoft.com/Investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/SegmentResults/S1/FY14/Q1/Performance.aspx

    http://www.microsoft.com/Investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/SegmentResults/S1/fy14/q2/Performance.aspx

    wolfgang I can pull these in going back 2 years. It all reads the same. None of Microsoft current growth is software. There are less non pro sales. Pro is the more expensive license. Less Pro licenses have to be sold to achieve the same revenue. So unit numbers are dropping a lot.

    The effects of what is going on is being felt by Microsoft.

    Worry here is also almost every quarter Microsoft has been cutting cost of revenue. on the Windows and Office products to hold them in the black. Windows 8 is most likely the last radical change Microsoft can afford todo.

    Come on Wolfgang you would laugh me out of town if I tried to claim that Solaris revune Fujitsu and Orcales total balance sheets.

    Microsoft is in trouble. If game console income and patent license income was not working Microsoft would be in real trouble.

    Basically valve with steam os knows exactly where they are punching to hurt Microsoft.

    wolfgang key words to a future stable company is diversity of income. Microsoft is losing its diversity.

  35. wolfgang says:

    …sales of refrigerators and toasters…

    I remember the flying toasters of long ago but that wasn’t from Microsoft I think. what I think is interesting is that Microsoft is keeping their revenues up in spite of lower numbers of pcs sold due to phones and tablets popular.
    If you only interested in seeing fewer copies of windows go out the door, then you will sure be happy camper. on the other side, if you interested in seeing Microsoft stock rise, you happy, too. best world there is.

  36. wolfgang wrote, “2013 sales are $77,849,000,000 and profit is $57,600,000,000 “.

    I don’t care about their sales of refrigerators or toasters. I care that consumers are no longer forced to buy M$’s crap from retail shelves. Business knows business has a choice. It’s their problem if they choose to stick with M$ for a while. Businesses that escape M$’s web will compete and thrive. Eventually many businesses will choose to use FLOSS just to maintain competitiveness. Their net income was only up $200 million in the Christmas quarter despite all that “innovation” and advertising. M$’s feeble attempts to diversify have resulted in plunging margins. M$ knows they are on borrowed time if wolfgang does not.

  37. wolfgang says:

    …two years of no increase…

    you reading real newspaper? mine says

    2013 sales are $77,849,000,000 and profit is $57,600,000,000

    2012 sales were $73,723,000,000 and profits were $56,193,000,000

    2011 sales were $69,943,000.000 and profits were $54,366,000,000

    even better in 2014 some say.
    who knows what might happen in due time, but it not happening yet. plenty of business for Microsoft still. more each year so far.

  38. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang is 8 quarters in a row so 2 years of no increases. Even that Microsoft over that time has increase license prices 4 times.

    If you like we can go and quote from Microsoft last 8 quarters of reports. Microsoft growth in revenue has not been coming from software licensing. The long term up up up broke 2 years ago. Same time items like VMWare DAAS started increasing in deployment rates.

    wolfgang VMWare claim is 5000 dollars per computer when chromebooks used in combination with VMWare DAAS. Very much possible due to the general waste rate of a normal deployment.

    Please note the 5000 dollar saving is in a large enterprise model in VMWare example. As I said wolfgang are you are large enterprise. If you are not I can fully understand not understanding how the 5000 dollar is possible.

    Yes its the 80 percent waste issue. Yes the average is only 1/5 of the computers in a business are active at any one time when you get to large enterprise.

    There is a catch of course smaller the business under 50 systems 100 percent utilisation is possible so no cost saving possible using something like VMWare DAAS in those cases. Key things here under 50 has to be reviewed on a case by case their can be cost saving.

    wolfgang if you were wise arguing against the vmware number you would be saying it does not scale down to small businesses. What it does not.

    Problem is Small businesses will be effected as Microsoft is forced to keep on lifting license prices as large enterprise need to consume less. Not that large enterprise has to reduce there number of hours of Microsoft software usage at all. Yes same number of hours of usage less money to Microsoft.

  39. wolfgang says:

    one area up other area down all the time. big whoop. long term is up, up, up. just like bank.

  40. wolfgang wrote, ” sales at Microsoft are all time high”.

    Licensing of that other OS for consumers was down from the same quarter a year ago, so wolfgang’s statement is clearly false.

    See latest 10-Q: “D&C Licensing gross margin decreased $331 million or 4%, due to decreased revenue, offset in part by a $323 million or 28% decrease in cost of revenue. D&C Licensing cost of revenue decreased, due mainly to a $223 million decline in traffic acquisition costs. “

  41. wolfgang says:

    …time has already told…

    if so, time is saying that sales at Microsoft are all time high. Linux sales still in last place, just like chromebook sales. keep hoping.

    as to rest of cabbage you serving, the claim was that chromebooks would save $5000 per computer used and that is silly claim and you have been around the barn with no way to save that idea.

  42. wolfgang wrote, ” how many people in world using windows computers? billion? two billion?”

    M$ says about 1.5 billion. Those slaves certainly don’t like M$ and its complexity, EULA, cost, malware,… Because there now is competition in OS markets from supplier, to OEM to retailer M$’s stuff doesn’t just need to be “good enough”. It has to be better than FLOSS to justify the higher price. That’s not happening. The number one application for most consumers is the web browser. Businesses are moving to web applications as fast as they can. Businesses are moving to thin clients as fast as they can. Consumers are moving to FLOSS as fast as they can. Consumers are moving incredibly fast. The number of Android/Linux clients could exceed M$’s count of slaves as early as next year. GNU/Linux is still growing but at a much slower pace. Android/Linux is already higher in the web stats than TOOS in India. It’s higher than XP in many places too.

  43. oiaohm wrote, “80 percent of a normal deployment licensing costs is normally waste when you focus on only deploying active instances”.

    Amen! On par with licensing costs is complexity. When I was an administrator at a school, it was just about impossible to do anything without CALs and authentication for licensing purposes yet nothing was in the budget for that. A FLOSS licence was much less complex giving same or better performance with no complexity. I didn’t even need to know how many active instances there were, just that we had enough RAM and CPU to run them. Since no one was going to pay us to keep XP running, we switched to GNU/Linux. Simple. $Free. Free.

  44. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang vmware, redhat and
    I think windows good enough for me and many others think so too. enough to keep Microsoft busy. maybe VMware better, but not so clear. maybe .net you call as legacy, but who really care what you say?
    Going VMWARE DAAS or Redhat virtualization of desktops solution is not giving up using Windows Applications. http://www.vmware.com/products/daas
    http://www.redhat.com/products/cloud-computing/virtualization/

    As you said wolfgang good enough for you. Are you a enterprise with 50+ staff. The reports are in repeating. I can bring in 40 + examples spread across EU governments using solutions like DAAS. If you are greater than 50+ staff Microsoft licensing of user and device don’t work well any more. At that point you are better serviced by a vmware or better solution.

    if people have real problem, they will look for fix. if you only imagine problem, no one will come looking. time will tell.
    There are many real examples of DAAS and Redhat virtualization desktops. Yes companies are having a real problem with Microsoft licensing model and are resorting to third parties or avoiding microsoft completely.

    Cisco systems was one of the first to declare all core operations have to be performable by web browser that was many years ago. Yes wolfgang you have head in sand about what enterprises are really doing.

    Time has already told. Lot of enterprises are working out how to cut licensing costs and data losses. Yes that is the other advantage of centralised. Someone loses a laptop as long as it reported and its account killed there is not much company data on it in a virtualized desktop set-up.

    Even high end 3d applications http://www.nvidia.com/object/grid-boards.html

    wolfgang its worth Nvidia time to spend the resources to build specialist hardware to handle the demand. Take Autocad for example its not cheap its 5000 dollars a seat. You don’t want this intermittently used. Microsoft cals are not cheap they are mostly expensive because they are hard to handle. Items like Autocad are expensive. Again you end up back at thin-terminal solutions.

    Problem here wolfgang you are most likely too small to understand. A person with less than 10 computers to manage does not really notice the cost differences. The Differences get larger as your number of users increase. Active instance licensing is what everyone wants that is over 50 employees.

    wolfgang Active instance licensing is not about not using Windows. Its about not being wasteful. Yes its shocking that 80 percent of a normal deployment licensing costs is normally waste when you focus on only deploying active instances.

    Basically companies don’t have to migrate to Linux to get cost savings. Huge cost savings.

    By the way studies of employment requests say .net is legacy as well. Why last 2 years there have been more jobs for people migrating .net applications to other languages than writing new .net applications or migrating other languages to .net. This is jobs behaviour around a language that is now legacy.

    wolfgang the .net legacy thing is not my point of view its what the statistical data is saying. Could this turn around yes it could. No matter what you say .net current trend is legacy. Java in the last 7 years has pulled an about face form something appearing to go legacy to something appearing to be here to stay.

    wolfgang basically your first mistake here is this has something todo with end users not using Windows. This is all about how to deliver Windows and the applications users need to them with the least waste.

    Small scale networks/enterprise and home users don’t have the same issues as the big scale network/enterprise. The big scale network/enterprise ones are what pay Microsoft a yearly fee.

    The big scale are finding savings of 5000 a seat in the TCO when you total everything up. Would that 5000 a seat work for the small scale most likely no. Everything 50+ is big scale. Now how far under 50 is the savings line is a big question.

  45. wolfgang says:

    …very interesting…

    but getting very tiresome and repetitive and time to move on. how many people in world using windows computers? billion? two billion? if 99% even love windows, then 10 million or more hate them. plenty of candidates for grumping here.

    I think windows good enough for me and many others think so too. enough to keep Microsoft busy. maybe VMware better, but not so clear. maybe .net you call as legacy, but who really care what you say?

    if people have real problem, they will look for fix. if you only imagine problem, no one will come looking. time will tell.

  46. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang problem here is the question answer 3 sides. This is about the most effective licensing deployment that is a problem with 3 sides due to Microsoft. Microsoft decided to split PC network into 2 sides being User and Device cals. Neither being a good fit.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_access_license

    The biggest problem with Microsoft cals is no electronic enforcement but has electronic tracking that reports back. So you can exceed then be audited and massively hurt.

    Nein! go with good vendor who can help you solve your problems. you make profit with solution and vendor make profit from providing service. If everyone trying to screw you then find other line of work. successful business making money with current suppliers will keep current suppliers. loser will be looking all the time. who do you want to be?

    So by this you should perfect agree don’t use Microsoft where possible because they are jerks who solve their problem but not the customers. Microsoft does not help users of there products avoid cal infringement at the software level. Microsoft just make tools to audit to hopefully find out if you are infringing and can pay before being fined. Note all microsoft audit software depends on that all the machines do get turned on and connected while it is active. This is the problem even microsoft audit software of cal usage is not complete. So you can have all the print outs of microsoft auditing software saying you are find and still be fined to hell when audited by the BSA.

    Yes you have VMWare or Orcale or Redhat or IBM audit applications of their software print outs if the report says you are fine you are. Yes these companies are dealing with the customers problem. Paying companies don’t want to break licensing.

    Like oracle database will stop taking connections when at limit. Redhat will not activate on a machine too large for it license. The list goes on of other providers where the software prevents you from ending up in being charged with infringement. Yes Oracle connection limits are active connection limits. Not max possible connections as Microsoft user and device cals are. So a network that has 7 machines 1 being a server of course with only 3 of the 6 clients on at a time with orcale only requires a connection license of 3. Microsoft Cals requires a license of 6. Inactive and active devices and users are counted in Microsoft cal licensing. This is why you have major cost blow outs with Microsoft Licensing if you don’t handle it well.

    wolfgang active connection licensing is vastly simpler. VMWare remote desktop for example you can limit each user to only being able to have X number of active connections. If user has multi devices they just have to disconnect one so they can get a connection back.

    Microsoft is not a good vendor wolfgang. Microsoft licensing is trap central. Go over limit system Microsoft Products still works. Badly thing is Windows servers do report back that they are over limit. So now enforcement turns up on your door.

    Notice the difference here a legal customer of VMWARE or Oracle or IBM…. Basically every major IT company other than Microsoft providing software you have todo something to mess with the licensing system to be in infringement or be totally incompetent. Microsoft your end users adding items can do you in.

    By the way .net desktop applications are classed as legacy. You are in enterprise examples remote desktop to handle legacy applications is fine. This is the problem for enterprise chromebooks are good enough. They are more powerful than thin clients.

  47. wolfgang says:

    … I was saying …

    not clear what you say. two sides to question, you take 3 sides at once. and chromebook not good for .net so stay at home to access facebook and tweeter.

  48. wolfgang says:

    …mean, better go with an expensive vendor trying to screw you?…
    Nein! go with good vendor who can help you solve your problems. you make profit with solution and vendor make profit from providing service. If everyone trying to screw you then find other line of work. successful business making money with current suppliers will keep current suppliers. loser will be looking all the time. who do you want to be?

  49. oiaohm says:

    not so wrong as your memory is fehlerhaft. you said multiple thousands of dollars for cals. now you say 31 dollar for cal and little more for other licenses. no one using terminal services or remote desktop anymore anyway. das ist überholt.
    Its also context. I was saying out of the vmware averaged 5000 dollars the break down can be thousands for cals. Not for the cal individual price. 31 cal per user 100 users per machine is 3100 thousand in cals for that one machine if you use user cals. Remember I said you had to choose user or device in old PC style networks. Old PC style networks are expensive. Some of your users will have multi devices so more suited to user licensing. Some users will be sharing devices with others so more suitable to device licensing. As a IT officer you have to get this right. Get it wrong as what happens more often than not and its thousands in extra licensing following the Microsoft cal lay out method for either per user or per device as if you choose the correct one.

    Fairly much the only correct way to be sure to be deploy the right way is don’t go legacy or don’t follow Microsoft model instead follow vmware or ulteo or redhat models.

    wolfgang
    best way to do business software is with data and business layer logic on server and accessed via intranet web service to employee consumers. no cals, no charges even for server. use .net on client everything in sandbox, no malware, keine hektik!

    This is what you call a non legacy solution. A non legacy solution makes Microsoft bugger all income. Servers can be completely Linux in most non legacy solutions. No .net required on client. .net refers to a program language. Javascript/java most common client side.

    wolfgang and for the non legacy solution you describe as well you don’t need full PC clients either chromebooks are good enough.

    Vmware clearly stated that the cost they were for supporting legacy windows applications. Min possible. So to migrate from legecy to modern you need a migration path.

    So web based solution avoiding cals completely or legacy applications proxyed remote desktop to clients to control cal growth rate are your two modern deployment methods.

    wolfgang as more enterprises change Microsoft income streams will keep on reducing. To hide this fact Microsoft has been increasing cal licensing and individual package pricing while at the same time attempting to cut down on packaging and disc production.

    wolfgang basically Microsoft is currently going ouch.

  50. luvr says:

    wolfgang said: “don’t deal with cheap vendor who try to screw you.”
    Hahahaha… You mean, better go with an expensive vendor trying to screw you?
    IBM, Microsoft, Oracle are just three that I’m familiar with, and that will demand that you let them do an audit whenever they feel like wasting your time. And, believe me: They will push hard when they think they discover an anomaly that might allow them to extract some extra bucks from you. You had better make sure that you have all your paperwork in order; no mercy when a stupid little document cannot be found!

  51. wolfgang says:

    …Your prices are wrong…
    not so wrong as your memory is fehlerhaft. you said multiple thousands of dollars for cals. now you say 31 dollar for cal and little more for other licenses. no one using terminal services or remote desktop anymore anyway. das ist überholt. best way to do business software is with data and business layer logic on server and accessed via intranet web service to employee consumers. no cals, no charges even for server. use .net on client everything in sandbox, no malware, keine hektik!

  52. oe says:

    Beauty of the GPL & BSD based software,…absolutely no overhead or worrying about licenses as an end-user institution, only if you hand off code and binaries to the downstream do you have to worry and put overhead into complying and then it’s really not to onerous. Haven’t even touched on the reliability, security and efficiency of OS/software stack, and protocols that benefit from crowd-sourced development (“many eyeballs)….

  53. wolfgang says:

    …ISV would not bend…

    your problem is being lousy picker of vendor. you should have asked angie. don’t deal with cheap vendor who try to screw you. how did vendor even know that you lost receipt?

  54. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang
    …multi thousand of dollars in Cals…

    you should fire stupid it manager in your place. give each worker one user cal for about 25€ then can access any server on work network. for remote desktop services, add 50€ more. done.

    Funny enough fire you. As you just stated the method to spin up thousands in idle licenses quickly. Remember ibm 80/20 this has been proven over and over again. 80 percent of the time a person in the business that is going well will not be typing letters or doing work requiring external software. So deploying software on a per user base is in fact deploying 80 percent too much. Not like Microsoft is going to complain.

    Your prices are wrong. The $5000 is USD in VMware example. Windows network access cal is 31 USD a exchange cal is 68 USD each. A terminal services cal is over 100 USD a cal. Sharepoint local lan access cal spin up 100 USD again. 300 dollars and up in complex networks.

    Microsoft software can be deployed by 3 methods User cals, device cals and third party proxied device cals are your 3 deployment methods. VMWare is selling third party proxied.

    User cals you have to have a user cal per user. There are many business cases where there are more users than devices. Take a 24 shift work crew. So you have 3 8 hours shifts. You have rotation staff as well. At a min the computer has 6 users. User cals . So 6 x 300=$1200 on a single machine.

    Device cals any number of users limited number of machines. So a user with 6 devices same problem.

    With device and user cals administrator has to be always trying to make two incompatible fit.

    Proxied device cals. any number of users. Software limited to a fix number of machines and number of current instances. But unlimited devices as well.

    Now the lethal mistake. Some people will say we will run a mix of device and user cal to get cost down. Read the fine print its either or. So a service like exchange can only be populated by either device or user cals.

    wolfgang next mistake with user cals. Counting only the human users. Third party Applications that create user accounts to perform special actions can in fact at times by way account is created register as a active users. Yes some particular brand anti-viruses do this. So use that anti-virus in a user cal network instantly increased your number of users by number of computers. Why the anti-virus uses a windows file-share to move out updates to a hidden user on every one of the machines with a independent login to all the normal users of the machine. Yes a shocking cases of 2 users logged in per machine at a time.

    wolfgang reality due to software issues the simplested to manage the licenses is device cals sitting behind a proxy to users.

    Unlimited Users and Limited active instances this kind of software is the simplest to manage.

  55. wolfgang wrote, ” vendor surely know you have license and you are good customer. no need for receipt. call salesman back. he will fix you up and buy you lunch, too.”

    ISVs love to be overpaid or paid multiple times. The particular ISV would not bend. No code. No use of the software. That package cost our little school ~$4K and it was rendered useless by the EULA, not by any technological reason.

  56. wolfgang says:

    …paperwork lost and not use the application…

    that is just as nonsense as need thousands of euros worth of cals. vendor surely know you have license and you are good customer. no need for receipt. call salesman back. he will fix you up and buy you lunch, too.

    if lawyer telling you that, fire lawyer along with stupid it manager.

  57. wofgang wrote, “you should fire stupid it manager in your place. give each worker one user cal for about 25€ then can access any server on work network. for remote desktop services, add 50€ more. done.”

    Munich and other places have hundreds of Windows-only apps each with their own site/user licensing. That is a huge headache that can’t be “done”. It’s an on-going battle everywhere to fight with each supplier and each user and each client machine to keep it all accounted/paid/budgeted etc. I was at one place where such an app had a paid-up licence but the paperwork was lost and we could not use the damned application and the supplier would give us no slack whatsoever. That was not M$ but one of M$’s “partners”. That’s all a part of the cost of the Wintel ecosystem. It’s huge, often dwarfing the cost of the hardware. Many of these are annual charges, hence the huge total. Some of these are charged “per CPU” so putting them on servers and accessing them from thin clients does reduce costs greatly. It certainly simplifies administration if there are no installations on the clients. The physical work of installing and maintaining software drops to a tiny fraction of the thick client model. Losing the dependency on M$ is an important means of undermining this barrier to efficiency in IT.

  58. wolfgang says:

    …multi thousand of dollars in Cals…

    you should fire stupid it manager in your place. give each worker one user cal for about 25€ then can access any server on work network. for remote desktop services, add 50€ more. done.

  59. lpbbear says:

    geezus oiaohm, must you bite at every troll bait that comes along?????

  60. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang anti-virus software to use in business is not free. Cal difference between a remote send and locally connected is another cost.

    Reality you start off with about 300 dollars but after you have a complex business network with exchange, sharepoint, …. and all these cals on top. The software cost of normal netbooks and laptops and pc’s does not take long to get to multi thousand of dollars in Cals. Issue is these cals usage can have pushed you over your acquired quotas so in line for BSA abuse.

    Chromebooks instant advantage is out box it contains nothing that connects to a Windows Server that will consume a CAL. wolfgang remember you use 1 cal too many Microsoft will want retail price.

    wolfgang like it or not avoiding windows in cases that all your applications are being provided server side has cost and licensing auditing advantages.

    wolfgang basically please go back and do complete TCO into a business network. Wake up this does not just include the software PC side. Its the software network side as well.

    Like 20 MS Office in thin terminal provision can have exactly 20 exchange and exactly 20 sharepoint… All firewalled from the outside world. No exceeding of allocation ever.

    Yes the biggest advantage to the vmware solution is exact license usage control. Exact licensing usage control means not having to buy as much spare space.

  61. wolfgang says:

    …very complicated reasoning…

    do you believe all that yourself? you are just guessing and hoping like everyone else. only difference between chromebook and windows computer here is cost of computer. maybe hundred euro tops. all else just quatsch

  62. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang Munich, French Police ….. List of many thousands of companies. Forms don’t require Microsoft Office or any MS Product todo forums but LibreOffice on Linux or web site.

    Please take note VMWare calls the old Windows Applications Legacy. You have migration plans away from Legacy.

    Microsoft Office is mostly only required as interface software with companies running Microsoft Office or for accountancy software in some cases. Not all employees do either.

    VMWare does not just deploy Windows in virtual application provision. VMWare deploys Linux instances as well.

    Yes 5000 Dollars saving per seat goes back over and over again to the IBM white-paper on how to conduct a migration to Linux.

    wolfgang I also said 5000 dollars includes maintenance not that the total amount was maintenance. Would help of wolfgang could read. Checking that updates have applied (yes you have to) because windows update is unstable. Dealing with Malware has a cost as well. Maintenance is a between 1 to 2 thousand when you also include.

    You are only talking 1-2 thousand in licensing. MS office full is 600+ dollars a seat. A person receiving emails may require every application of MS Office. Currently most businesses cut corners and only deploy part versions.

    So where is the other 1-2 thousand. Operation effectiveness.

    Device licensed MS Office on a server provide by Vmware or ulteo or redhat splice every seat in the network can have access to a full MS Office. Ok there might be times you run out of device cals and someone has to wait. This is mostly not a major problem. Staff are smart enough to alter tasks. Not being able to get access and having to move someone else off a physical machine todo something in fact costs a lot of time.

    wolfgang in a business using webforms and libreoffice for forms only 20 percent of the seats at max require MS Office at one time.

  63. wolfgang says:

    …$5000 per machine is maintenance…
    must burn a lot of oil and need front end alignment! I don’t believe that. also, if all troops madly typing forms and using all licenses and Kapitän cannot write message to Oberst, IT manager soon to be put in hole. not good practice, I think.

  64. oiaohm says:

    wolfgang the licensing on server usage is understood.

    There is a reason why you will find Linux and Windows servers. Linux servers running items like libreoffice. Those servers you don’t have to worry about connected users.

    By using http://www.ulteo.com you are able to restrict to a fixed number of connected devices to the Windows server. Yes device licensing of Microsoft products. Only device connecting are ulteo devices that are on proxying their interfaces.

    VMware also provides a interface proxy solution. Yes you use device license not users. With device licenses you only need as many device licenses as max active instances.

    Yes you can save money using a Windows laptop by going terminal services as well for some applications.

    The 5000 dollars per machine include maintenance.

    Chomebooks are insanely simple to reset to factory.

  65. wolfgang says:

    …raft of software licences …???

    was ist? if you can live with non-Microsoft software on server and use chromebook, you can do the same with windows notebook. article talks about running Microsoft products on server, but licensing not clear. maybe save $5000 by ignoring license terms?

  66. wolfgang wrote, ” how much saved over notebook same size as chromebook?”

    I don’t think the cost has much to do with the hardware but the raft of software licences and the constant tweaking of software on individual PCs. I know when I switched from GNU/Linux on thick clients to terminal servers and thin clients the workload dropped dramatically. All I had to do was record the squiggles on stickers and update anti-virus programmes. Imagine an organization with 400 business-applications!

  67. wolfgang says:

    …about $5,000 per computer …

    Ach die liebe! Was ist das in deutchmarks?
    traditional PC must be fat pig! how much saved over notebook same size as chromebook?

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