Money Wasted

I came upon disclosures of contracts over $10K on the government of Canada’s website and found these sad entries:

  • Canada Revenue Agency 2010-06-01 to 2013-05-31, $50,084,947.14
  • Environment Canada 2008-04-01 to 2012-03-31, $8,986,204.42
  • National Defence 22-5-2009, $895,282.00

There were a few entries ~$100K as well. The good news is that not every agency seems to be reporting huge cash-flows to M$ (I hope they are all reporting as they should…) but the bad news is that considering that these reports span a few years, there is probably a huge outlay queuing up on the horizon.

I consider money paid to M$ for permission to run the computers owned by the government a huge waste since GNU/Linux is available to manage resources on computers for $0 + the cost of installation. Really, the default software should be GNU/Linux just for the savings. $millions is a lot of money to waste. I expect if I had a complete picture the total would be closer to many hundreds of millions annually and then there are licences for the non-free applications on top of that. It’s all a waste considering the government could hire a few developers to keep all computers up to date using GNU/Linux for a fraction of the cost.

Want to have nightmares? Consider that Canada, on several occasions, paid M$ to be a consultant… Isn’t that a little like paying M$’s salesmen to sell licences to Canada? That contract was “competitively sourced”. I’m sure M$ wouldn’t charge too much for being allowed to put its foot in the door… Sigh.

Clearly, the government of Canada does not see M$ as its enemy despite public disclosures that M$ will do anything to make a sale.

Based on nothing more than a rumour that AOL and SUN were going to acquire Netscape, M$ set this assault in motion:
“This deal confirms Microsoft’s argument that companies in the software industry work together all the time to advance their technology or their business interests. .The government appears to have an unfair double standard – when you look at these kinds of deals among other companies. its ridiculous that the government is attacking Microsoft for simply meeting with other companies to discuss potential areas of cooperation.

1) We will have either John Warden or Bill Neukom speak to the pool camera and the wires on the Courthouse steps at 9:40 as we enter the Courthouse. in addition. Neukom or Warden will conduct the noon briefing, since the government will undoubtedly be trying to spin that the deal doesn’t affect the government’s case in any way.
(Mark Murray will own)

2) Marcy Simon will assemble a b-roll package and radio sound bite package of the Courthouse steps comments and disseminate to all media. (Marcy)

3) We will go all-out to get a WSJ editorial saying how crazy the governments case is in light of these events – “free market has shown its way ahead of government intervention. government should butt out.” (Greg Shaw)

4) Our Government Affairs DC Team should call sympathetic conservative columnists, to push immediate columns on the same message. (Jack/Vivek)

5) Rick Rule should be available for media interviews all day Monday & Tuesday — both in court and outside of court hours. Rick has already talked to AP, WSJ, Washington Post and USA Today to get our messages into the advance stories. (RickIEdelman) _

6) Rick should call the top 10-12 antitrust “experts” who get quoted on our case. try to sell them on the idea that this fundamentally undermines the government’s case. (Rick/Edelman)

7) Bill Baxter —- we should pursue a couple of very high level interviews for Baxter — WA Post. NYT? We should also try to place an immediate Baxter op-ed saying “government ought to read the wnting on the wall and drop this case… This is just like the old IBM case he had to pull the plug on – the industry reinvents itself far faster than govemment could ever hope to intervene.” (Rick/Vivek)

8) Leverage Milton Friedman statement in the Valley on Saturday – Friedman‘s comments are exactly on point –
(a) Valley support for the Government’s lawsuit is suicidal; (b) govemment intervention will be bad for innovation and bad for consumers; (c) the industry will be totally changed before the govemment gets around to acting —- (as this deal shows). (Govt Aff)

9) Government affairs outreach to Congressional. state/local officials and our core supporters who have been following the case. (Jackk/John Kellylvivekv) “

M$ sold the world garbage for decades…
“current PC technology is totally sufficient for most office tasks and consumer desires and that any performance bottleneck is not in today’s PCs but in today’s COM pipes. This in itself might slow down replacement cycles and life time shortening until we find true MIPS eating appIications”

see Exhibit 365

Why should the government of Canada do business with such a bully? Canada is much bigger and stronger than M$ and can make its own software or use FLOSS for everything.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

31 Responses to Money Wasted

  1. oiaohm says:

    bw you are nothing more than a desperate troll. Person who stops you has to be nuts. They cannot be sane.

    Bad news. I don’t post non-stop. Schizophrenia is also a no. Master debater has a nasty habit of changing sides to what ever side has the winning information.

    You could call me a underhanded Debater.

    Come on you were the one I have confirmed living in a fantasy world were you can rent anything with no legal restricts and reading what you want from text not what was really written.

    There is a point here something important from psychosocially study. Normally the insane features you see in other people are the exact features you have.

    So bw you are most like the one with OCD and schizophrenia.

    I require so much writing a day to control dyslexia. So non stop is kinda required. Now when there is no one fun to attack debates I go do tech support. Also since you guys are trolls a bit to hard to read english because my dyslexia wins and swaps a few words or a few letters does not hurt someone really productive.

    So mine is not OCD why I am doing it. Never was.

    Now that you point to OCD I would be very suspect due to physiological normal rule. You are more likely to see in others what you suffer from and cannot see in yourself.

    Yes bw since you are seeing OCD and schizophrenia a person without it.

    There is something else that commonly goes along with dyslexia that causes a person to see many levels deeper into a problem than normal. Yes it has a text book name.

    Also you need to look up OCD OCD contains no fantasy world.

    There is something else schizophrenia there arguments can have holes punched in them simply they are not ever logical arguments.

    The contract bind I just detailed that Microsoft will find them-self in other companies have found them-self there as well.

    Now pulling out what goes along with dyslexia you will find what I am makes sense. Its also not mentally ill.

    Reality even you latest posts shows lack of knowledge. bw writing/typing is a treatment to some conditions. In fact when I have skipped anyone who knows me notices a drop in quality of my english.

    In fact if you look back over these recent arguments by number of direct flaws has been reducing. My early posts are english worse than my current ones.

    I had been light for a few weeks before you bw. And it shows.

  2. bw says:

    You confuse your fantasy world with knowledge and post about it non-stop. That is OCD certainly with perhaps a little schizophrenia tossed in. These things are seldom purely one or the other, you know.

  3. oiaohm says:

    bw sorry OCD is not this. The problem is I have seen this for a long time.

    The problem you have to say it OCD because your really don’t have the information to argue.

    I could say yours is OCD bw. You have to attack yet you don’t have the knowledge to even make a valid position.

  4. bw says:

    Like I said, OCD.

  5. oiaohm says:

    bw the problem is that agreement becomes in breach of the On2 agreement over VP7 with Microsoft as soon as Nokia attempts t attack.

    –Nokia and Microsoft are fully cross-licensed by agreement–
    There are normally escape clause. The On2 agreement with Microsoft could trigger such a clause.

    bw fully crossed licensed sometimes causes a Pandora box.

    bw problem is Microsoft is pinned. Either Microsoft accepts it going to have to pay Google big time over VP7. Or two Microsoft deals with Nokia some how de-fang Nokia.

    How do you de-fang a company without using patents. When in the case of Microsoft vs Nokia. Buy Nokia out.

    Second is work out some creatively so that Nokia cross license deal that Microsoft can be applied to VPx so being in conformance with the On2 license requirement to Patent license the upstream. Result Nokia has no patent to use they already licensed them away to Microsoft.

    Problem here this leaves VPx codec’s charge free for everyone bar Nokia who cannot license the patents due to using patents to attack.

    One way to make Microsoft cross license deal apply to VPx is for Microsoft to get Google to enter joint development with them over it. So now VPx is a MS product so protected by the Nokia-Microsoft deal.

    What bw are you that stupid to think Microsoft had to use patents to destroy Nokia.

    In effect Nokia threat to go after VPx is attack Microsoft by Proxy. The Proxy being Google.

    bw the thing you are not allowing for I have factored in Nokia Microsoft cross license deal. This is what in fact builds the Pandora box problem why Nokia cannot really attack without also bringing Microsoft into the battle.

    On2 protected itself from patent attack by using viral patent deals.

    bw problem is this complex relation ship of deals is too much for your poor little brain to handle bw.

    You are only looking 1 level deep the problem is multi levels deep. Lets just patent deals are a very risky deal. Its very easy to have two patent deals with two different parties that are in conflict that you cannot get out of simply.

  6. bw says:

    “Nokia feel like attacking Microsoft”

    Nokia and Microsoft are fully cross-licensed by agreement, silly. Keep whistling past the graveyard, maybe you will get home safe!

  7. oiaohm says:

    Its not just Me who does not think very much about Florian Muller.

    Also the problem is we have also seen lots of stuff Floriam Muller as made a big deal about fade into a nothing problem.

  8. oiaohm says:

    bw if could read english properly you would not have made one arguement. You did not understand “form of”.

    bw I don’t have OCD. I have todo some much writing to control dyslexia. Just hate how I decide to control it. The idea that I am mentally ill is wrong.

    Yes I do have a evil side I do love using advanced english methods to see how big of idiots trolls. You are quite a big idiot bw. I do this for fun. OCD is not doing it for fun.

    Those Nokia patents also get a little more interesting.

    Notice that all the Nokia patents are prior to VP7 Microsoft Acquired Skype. VP7 is under the same Patent License as VP8.

    So Nokia feel like attacking Microsoft. Wait did you not enter into agreement with Microsoft not to use your patents against them.

    bw really the nokia case threatens to turn into a complete disaster. Because Nokia cannot enforce its patents against VP8 without also enforcing against VP7.

    Welcome to the term viral. On2 was very good at viral patent licenses. So the complete nokia vs google idea threatens to go completely sideways. Where either Nokia or Microsoft is screwed over.

    On2 patent license forbid entering into patent deals that did not cover the parent company of the codec.

    So Nokia takes case forwards on Google. And the patent agreement between Microsoft and Nokia breaches the On2 license. So now Google can sue Microsoft for using VP7. This is not a good outcome.

    Now Microsoft could choose to defend Google from Nokia so meaning Microsoft does not breach On2 license. This would be a complete disaster for Nokia.

    Basically no matter what Nokia does with it patents over VP8 other than sit on them and do nothing Google wins.

  9. bw says:

    You are a real piece of work, but you are way past the point of being at all interesting. Look up OCD it may help you to understand.

  10. oiaohm says:

    –You said that it was illegal to rent power tools without the manufacturer’s permission and also that a warranty was a license and that they denied the right to rent. You clearly know nothing at all about patents, licenses, or even warranties. Quit being such a fool.–

    That is getting closer to correct. Losing Warranty off item is not a healthy thing in case of defect.

    I never said Warranty denied the right to rent. Breaking the Redhat License does not block you from using FOSS software clone of Redhat. Just blocks you from receiving any more support from Redhat.

    I never said a Warranty was a License. I said form of License. I did clear this point up in fact.

    You are swapping my words and taking meaning that is not there.

    You are the one bw who is saying “Warranty was a License”.

    –Also using device outside manufactures specifications(for of usage restriction) and something goes wrong no liability lands on manufacture. Renting a device against manufactures specifications gets you into major trouble when something goes wrong.–

    –You said that it was illegal to rent power tools without the manufacturer’s permission–
    Read again very carefully. Where do I exactly say that.

    I say you rent it without the manufacturer’s permissions you end up with all the legal liability if anything goes wrong. This could run into multi-millions. You are not allowed in most countries to put people at risk with possibly hazardous gear.

    Tool makers use Occupational Health and Safety Laws to restrict what you can and cannot rent. Software uses Copyright Laws. The result is the same. Without Manufactures permission you cannot rent. If you do rent a Circle Saw that does not have Manufactures permission and even if no one gets hurt the fines can run into Millions.

    bw by going to circle saw you go into completely different set of laws with there own complexities.

    bw you have as a idiot presume there are not laws that forbid you from renting particular items. Like you are not allowed to rent or give or sell bed mattresses you are always meant to buy those new. Hotels/Motels…. require particular model mattresses and to replace them inside a particular time frame to conform to OHS.

    Bw basically OHS is your copyright law of physical objects when it comes to renting. Some physical items are fully forbid from being rented at all.

    Anything that is a physical object that is rented as a tool really does require Manufacturer to state its quality level and that quality level be suitable to OHS. Yes it is legal for Manufacturer to understate quality level. Its not legal for Manufacturer to over state quality level.

    bw I most likely have not stated this as clearly before. You need to get your head around OHS really quickly because what you have been stating is in breach of it in many countries include the USA.

    The are laws we have to work inside those laws.

    bw you clearly know nothing about OHS laws and it shows. You complete arguement only stands up in countries without OHS laws those laws effect what you can rent in the form of physical objects.

    This is also true of copyright preventing renting of software this only holds in countries where law supports this.

    USA laws and Australian laws support both cases.

    bw try using direct quotes of what I said. Not your incorrect interpretations. Form of X is not a strange notion. Maybe its too advanced of english for you to understand. A car is a form of Vehicle most people think in this form where is mirrored.

    Advanced english right to left no mirror. Also the fact I placed in () is another warning that is not a mirror. You are getting into trouble because you are reading form of in a basic form. Form of covers overlapping sets. So a blue rabbit is a form of blue. A blue rabbit is also a form of rabbit. And since there is a blue rabbit, blue is a form of rabbit in this sets. But this does not make all rabbits the colour blue.

    Warranty License hybrid does exist this is what I was stating by form of License. So you have Warranties, You have Licenses and you have Warranty Licenses were the two sets overlap. So Warranty and License sets are not 100 percent independent.

    Advanced usage of “form of” can be confusing to those who are not use to it.

    bw most of the issue I have is people failing to read my style of english. Sections of my english are advanced english. Other sections are crappy. I understand some miss reading.

  11. bw says:

    You said that it was illegal to rent power tools without the manufacturer’s permission and also that a warranty was a license and that they denied the right to rent. You clearly know nothing at all about patents, licenses, or even warranties. Quit being such a fool.

  12. oiaohm says:

    –12 still seems like a lot to me. In any case I believe that it only takes 1 to block production of an infringing device.–
    Yes might sound like a lot until you wake up Microsoft vs Google started with over 20 each side independant.

    12 is low enough that there might not be a single valid one there once they get into the nitty gritty.

    Bw USA duplicate titles on patents can be just renewals. So that 12 in the USA could once the nitty gritty start reduce to 6-7 from the get go.

    Basically its not a massive number of patents.

    USA patent system is a mess that when you renew a patent you get a new patent number. Most countries around the world are sane when you renew a patent the end date of the same number patent gets updated. Of course USA could not be this sane.

    In a life of a software patent it can be renewed 4 times. Yes once every 5 years for its 20 year life in the USA. Welcome to mess.

    This is also why usa has such a big evergreening problem with patents. I renew. New patent number at some point someone loses track and a patent gets renewed a few too many times.

  13. oiaohm says:

    bw the people behind groklaw are not annoymous these days. Do you know what ~pj stands for in the title. Pamela Jones (PJ).

    Pamela Jones is a little warped the Anonymous account on Groklaw is hers.
    This is knowing your sources.

    Just because someone uses the name Anonymous does not mean they are.

    bw the problem is not what quoted from FOSSPatents it what is missing what should be in that post.
    –We are pleased with the Administrative Law Judge’s finding that Microsoft did not violate Motorola’s patent and are confident that this determination will be affirmed by the Commission. The ITC has already terminated its investigation on the other four patents originally asserted by Motorola against Microsoft.–
    This is Microsoft over 6,246,862. zdnet has reported correctly. Its not a loss yet.

    Notice Microsoft is not calling it a win yet. They are only confident not sure. FOSSPatents is making out is a slam dunk when its still a ball spinning around the ring. The patent is not lost yet the Commission is still free to flip the ruling over 6,246,862 back the other way. Now once the Commission rubber stamps it then Google has lost that patent. Only possibly lost. The bias is straight up in FOSSPatents title. The title is incorrect. You cannot see the title is incorrect because the bias reporting that Florian Müller has left out key items like the Commission can decide to change the ruling completely. A single ITC judge cannot give a final and complete ruling.

    –dropped its WiFi (WLAN) patents– withdrew its two H.264 video codec SEPs — These are dropped until Google/Motorola case to find out about frand. In fact if Microsoft keeps on refusing to pay the Frand these patents might be back. The prior cases were written up as non frand cases so had to be dropped under order of the FTC.

    bw the problem with FOSSPatents you have some facts but some are incomplete facts. Then titles of posts making you read the incomplete facts the wrong way.

    Basically stay well clear of FOSSPatents site its a trap. If something is mentioned in FOSSPatents be sure to google up other media coverage. You will always find critical data missing.

    Also you need to learn to read bw.
    “Lot of people illegal trade genuine dvd and computer games with friends. You cannot swap those without writing up a invoice legally to transfer them. You technically cannot lend them without a renters license.”

    That is where I mention renters license. Paragraph is clearly about dvd and computer games and copyright protected works.

    –Do you even remember saying that it was illegal to rent power tools without a rental “license” by posting:–
    I never said power tools required a rental License. So how can I remember saying it.

    You were the buffoon that took a line from my comment about dvd and other copyright protected works and attempted to apply it to a saw.

    “There are none because they cannot rent those. Sorry bw you don’t live in the real legal world. About time you do.”

    This refers to another set of restrictions. You cannot rent an item that is a risk to OHS. Item not rated for commercial usage/Professional usage cannot be rented in most cases. In fact a manufacture can box the same tool in two different boxes one labelled Commercial/Professional with that Warranty and paperwork and one labelled Home/consumer with that Warranty and paperwork.

    Even that the two items are identical you can only rent the Commercial/Professional one without risking OHS landing on you if something breaks. Commercial/Professional was meant to have high QA at factory.

    bw basically go back and read the posts again this time way more carefully making sure you are not putting your own idiot option on my words.

  14. bw says:

    “We are talking about a max of about 12 individual patents. That could drop down a lot in the validation process.”

    12 still seems like a lot to me. In any case I believe that it only takes 1 to block production of an infringing device.

  15. bw says:

    “If you want a true non bias go read and others like it. There are written by legal experts. They have no affiliation with any party they are talking about. They are very careful to avoid conflict of interest”

    I don’t see where “anonymous” can be asserted as a legal expert, but perhaps your definition of expert is as bizarre as your definition of license or warranty. In any case, I don’t see where anything there conflicts with what the other guy posted. I pointed to the article that said:

    “An Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) at the United States International Trade Commission (USITC, or just ITC) has given notice of a preliminary ruling that Microsoft’s Xbox gaming console does not infringe Google’s (Motorola’s) U.S. Patent No. 6,246,862 on a “sensor controlled user interface for portable communication device”. ”

    I assumed that this was factual and nothing that you posted about the author’s alleged bias seems to contradict that. Is the statement a fact or not? It should be pretty clear one way or the other and not subject to opinion.

  16. bw says:

    Do you even remember saying that it was illegal to rent power tools without a rental “license” by posting:

    “There are none because they cannot rent those. Sorry bw you don’t live in the real legal world. About time you do.”

    A load of baloney, of course, but you seem to be unable to tell the difference between fact and your warped opinion.

    You also might remember how you presented the odd notion that a warranty was a license:

    “You will find the warranty(yes form of license)”

    As some polite child might put it, you are full of beans. I might add that long-windedness does not help your lost cause.

  17. oiaohm says:
    bw look at the nokia VP8 done by Groklaw. Nokia position now does not look as strong. We are talking about a max of about 12 individual patents. That could drop down a lot in the validation process.

    Yes is mostly fear making.

    Groklaw and other true legal reporters always put the problem to scale.

  18. oiaohm says:

    bw the true pro-Linux side never quotes and others yes.

    When you see a person quoting they are either idiot or a MS/some other non Foss company troll.

    Yes your claim about pro-Linux people quoting fosspatents is bogus.

  19. oiaohm says:


    –When challenged on that nonsensical notion, you came up with a lame claim that it would perhaps void any manufacturer’s warrant, although you could not even substantiate that notion.–

    To be correct go read ryobi warranty along with other cheep brands warranties they have common clauses.
    Point 1 in fact. Forbid commercial usage this includes renting since all ryobi stuff is for consumer and private use only. Rent a ryobi you have voided warranty instantly use it for a paid job you have also voided warranty instantly.

    Technically lending a ryobi to your friends has voided warranty. This is common tool warranty knowledge. There are lots of tool makers like this.

    Please you never asked me to substantiate this. I told you other makers had it in warranties. Really you making the point should have known this before you made it bw.

    bw you are the one that is a buffoon. A ryobi power saw you cannot rent without voiding Warranty. I can pick many other tool brands that are the same. They are the poorer grade crap. Yes it fully legal on a power tool to forbid renting. All I had to do is change brand in your arguement and your arguement completely falls apart. Ryobi is basically Microsoft equal in tools. The brand you choose is basically FOSS something yes the company you quoted does publish all hardware specifications enough that you could remake the tool.

    There are safety reasons as well. Some devices require a service every so many hours of operation. Any tool with this requirement less than the time frame of rental cannot be rented either. You must count that the machine as if the it has run for every hour its not been in your presence. Renting a tool that does not pass this and it malfunctions you can be in very big trouble as a person renting it. So rent the wrong tool lands you having to answer to what ever your countries laws are over workplace health and safety. Most countries very big fines. So there are tools that even if the warranty is voided its not an option to rent them because the manufactures maintenance instructions don’t allow it.

    bw please note I did not say void any manufactures Warranty on a circle saw. I said if you had choose some of the other brands. As you can see a ryobi is one of those brands.

    You example has no legs. Never had any legs bw. So you are the buffoon. You just have been dead pushy to make me prove it to you.

    bw there are some brands of tools where you can pay extra warranty to cover them for professional or commercial use that includes renting. Same way MS is doing the rental license on software. They are a closer match to Microsoft than Ryobi.

    –Some fairly famous blogger, I assume since the pro-Linux side chose to cite him as to factual information, states that Google is losing some patent claims issues and has previously lost others.–
    bw Florian Müller is famous for being non FOSS and running a site called FOSSPatents that gets predictions of outcomes wrong all the time.

    If you want a true non bias go read and others like it. There are written by legal experts. They have no affiliation with any party they are talking about. They are very careful to avoid conflict of interest.

    Also you will find the proper sites avoid predicting the outcomes. They understand it will come down to the judge/jury hearing the case if it goes to court and not all those ruling are sane or predictable.

    Florian Müller goes straight into conflict of interest the complete time.

    That nano sim arguement was a fairly big one and the last major time Nokia started threatening in a standard body over patents.

    bw what I am talking about is part of the general legal press with ethics. No some know diabolical blogger who is basically month piece for who ever pays enough money that Florian Muller is.

    Please use quality references in future and anything FOSSPatents is not quality. You need to find the same stuff talked about on quality sites.

    First rule when a company does something is see if they have done similar before. Its the best prediction of what they are upto. Nokia case the last time they acted like this is the Nano sim debark-le. Yet Florian Muller makes no reference to that at all and attempt to predict the outcome based on wild guesses not company history. Yes big sign of very poor reporting.

    bw its another case you have brought something you don’t have a leg to stand on with.

  20. bw says:

    Quit hemming and hawing. I had likened prohibition of renting a computer to renting a power saw. Rather than simply discounting the analogy, you decided to leap in with the totally absurd notion that you could not rent a power saw without a rental rights license. When challenged on that nonsensical notion, you came up with a lame claim that it would perhaps void any manufacturer’s warrant, although you could not even substantiate that notion.

    Then you got off with some vague link to Red Hat’s terms and conditions pages, saying that it vindicated your position.

    You are just a buffoon and have no direct knowledge of anything. You are just embarrassing yourself with each attempt to wriggle out from your previous gaffe.

    Some fairly famous blogger, I assume since the pro-Linux side chose to cite him as to factual information, states that Google is losing some patent claims issues and has previously lost others. You chime in with some specious opinion that has no basis in terms of references as if your authority is superior. I don’t know who he even is, but he at least has a web site and a following and all you have are odd ideas.

    Think about how silly you look.

  21. oiaohm says:

    bw in fact I did not say a Warranty was a license. But a License can contain a Warranty. Or what I call a Warranty License. Since the item does not appear to come with a Warranty documentation at all.

    Sorry bw you are now picking on the person not the facts. Your English was that poor and you lack of understanding that bad that you believed I thought a Warranty was a License what is not the case.

    If you cannot understand that form of statements you should stay well clear of anything legal bw.

    1) Google has settled with MPEG LA.
    2) Most of Nokia patents are restricted by MPEG LA.

    The fact that nokia has gone to Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) instead of patent enforcement route suggest a huge bluff. This is not the first time Nokia has bluffed either. Nano sim Nokia vs apple look it up bw. In the end after a flat out no statement for Nokia, Apple gets a Frand license from Nokia the same Frand license they were asking for in the beginning.

    If the patents are valid why not sue Google bw.

    Fosspatents never did a history of Nokia. We only know when Nokia is serous when they take parties to court properly. They throw a hot of hot air around in places like the IETF to try to get better settlements.

    bw people who follow decent patent case sites know Nokia. Yes this over inflating of patents is also common when Nokia is bluffing. When Nokia is serous they normally right it a Max of so many patents per country. Because then they are planning on following threw.

    bw Nokia behaviour currently is still bluff so ignore them until they get serous and when they get serous is when you will find if anything will come out of this. Of course for people like Florian Müller this does not bring web clicks.

    Different companies have different modes of operation with Patents. Nokia is bluff first then get serous.

  22. bw says:

    I have to laugh at your sage pronouncements about patents. You who think a warranty is the same as a license! lol

  23. oiaohm says:

    bw does not pay to read FOSSPATENTS its highly Microsoft Bias. In fact if you read all the Fosspatent blogs he admits being paid by Microsoft so not a non bias reporter. He has been wrong that many times it not funny. He said SCO would beat the Linux world never happened. Did Oracle beat Google over java like he predicted no.

    If you want a pity universal constant from his blogs you can fairly much say what ever side he is backing is screwed. I have not seen once yet where its prediction has turned out correct. yes what he is is public knowledge.

    Google removal of 2 Patents from the FTC is not that they are not legally enforceable its that there status of legally enforceable is not known. Microsoft has breached Motorola FRAND over H264. Now its not worth spending time investigating until what FRAND enforcement is allowed todo. So there is no reason why the H264 patents cannot end back up at the FTC in future.

    Bw basically you want credibility don’t quote Fosspatents.

    I was expecting Nokia to be upset. Nokia does not cross license free of charge normal.

    bw there is a very big problem

    That Google has settled with MPEG LA. Nokia may not be in there legal right to be using those patents at all. If Nokia keeps down this path Nokia might find that they cannot use anything cross licensed by MPEG LA. This includes h.264.

    Nokia vs Google is no slam dunk. This can go very south. What Nokia particular hates about VP8 and WEBM is that Google Patent grant say anyone with a patent claim against it has to come to Google or not use the patent. So Nokia actions with the ITC now means Nokia does not have a license to use VP8 or VP9.

    This is why MPEG LA backed off. Google is playing hard ball. If Google wins and You lose you really do lose the right to use VPx tech going forward forever. If you win and Google loses you still lose the right to use VPx tech going forwards forever even if Google does license the patents from you.

    The only way to win against the VPx patent grant there is not one.

    George Wilson its not 86 independent patents. Nokia has registered patents in 5 different countries the same patent. So the correct number of patents that google has to defeat is about 20 independent patents.

  24. Aieee a Ballhogg says:

    oiaohm, thanks for the pointer to quagga and the others. That kind of makes the point that a lot more could be done to publicize the existence of these tools and their capabilities.

  25. bw says:

    “Microsoft back to their old tricks. Well, “back” is really the wrong word, as they never have stopped playing foul.”

    I have to admit that I have next to no understanding of the issues here, or even what VP8 is, but a reading of the blog fails to show where Microsoft has anything to do with the thing. I guess if you postulate that Nokia is a Microsoft division or possession or subsidiary or otherwise directed and controlled by Microsoft, you could blame it on them, but that is hardly the case at all. Plus, the article goes on to suggest that other vendors, for example ATT and even Motorola itself are in the same position.

    The link was interesting in another regard, where it led to:

    This erudite blogger comes to the conclusion:

    “I believe Google will soon realize, or may already have realized, that it needs to pay Android patent royalties to Microsoft, and that Motorola’s patent portfolio doesn’t give it enough leverage for a “freebie” cross-license”

    It may very well be that the string of victories in the phone business for Android are also victories for Microsoft. Isn’t that a heck of a note?

  26. George Wilson says:

    Apropos money wasted, I can see lots of money being needlessly wasted in the future, as Nokia don’t want to play nice. They have just pulled out of their hat 86 patents which allegedly are violated by VP8. If that wasn’t enough, Nokia don’t want to license said patents under any circumstances.

    If that doesn’t reek of the foul breath of Nokia’s master pulling the strings in the background then I don’t know what does. Apparently that’s how Microsoft want to survive. What a pathetic showing.

    Florian Müller has a report up on his blog. There you can read this gem, sent to him by a Nokia spokesman:

    Nokia believes that open and collaborative efforts for standardization are in the best interests of consumers, innovators and the industry as a whole. We are now witnessing one company attempting to force the adoption of its proprietary technology, which offers no advantages over existing, widely deployed standards such as H.264 and infringes Nokia’s intellectual property. As a result, we have taken the unusual step of declaring to the Internet Engineering Task Force that we are not prepared to license any Nokia patents which may be needed to implement its RFC6386 specification for VP8, or for derivative codecs.

    You gotta love the audacity. Nokia call VP8 “proprietary technology” when it’s anything but. Instead H.264 is praised, without a doubt a very capable codec, but one for which you have to pay cold, hard cash — every time you buy an H.264-enabled device, every time you buy an H.264-enabled software and so on.

    Microsoft back to their old tricks. Well, “back” is really the wrong word, as they never have stopped playing foul.

  27. bw says:

    “•They were going to manipulate the editors of the WSJ based on a rumour”

    That is not what the mail said. It said they were going to get the WSJ to publish an article if and when the rumor was found to be true.

    “•They were going to manipulate public opinion for what purpose?”

    They were being accused of harming competition. This incident, if true, would serve to show that competition was in good health. Netscape was worth a considerable amount of money, some 4.2B as it turned out, in spite of the “harm” wrecked by Microsoft.

    The rumor was true, was it not?

    “What good citizen tries to manipulate the course of justice outside the courtroom?”

    In the case of the Microsoft trial, it is hard to blame them. As the case unfolded, virtually all of the major charges were dismissed and the judge in the case was censured for appearing biased and giving media information prior to the verdict that he rendered. Nothing about that mess was very above board.

  28. bw wrote, “There is nothing illegal being proposed here, merely that Microsoft will take steps to show such a merger as a healthy sign of competitive viability and an indication that the government lawsuit being conducted at the time was without any merit. I don’t see how you could fault them for taking that position.”

    Let’s see.

    • They were going to manipulate the editors of the WSJ based on a rumour. What would they have done for a fact? Ask them to commit murder? What about the right of free speech and the duty of those editors to provide a free press?
    • They were going to manipulate public opinion for what purpose? Derailing the trial in progress? What good citizen tries to manipulate the course of justice outside the courtroom?
  29. bw says:

    “M$ will do anything to make a sale.”

    I certainly agree with you that such is the case with Microsoft. I don’t see it as such a bad thing, though, and I believe that it is the natural thing to do for any company. There is nothing illegal being proposed here, merely that Microsoft will take steps to show such a merger as a healthy sign of competitive viability and an indication that the government lawsuit being conducted at the time was without any merit. I don’t see how you could fault them for taking that position.

    As to your charge that this was precipitous, being “based on nothing more than a rumor”, it is clear from the email that this sort of action would only follow “only if there is actually a deal in the works”. It was just a contingency plan, something that most people would applaud as being prudently prepared for likely eventualities.

    Rather than complaining about Microsoft’s taking action, you should take a lesson from them that might help to correct your concerns that the Canadian government is wasting money by purchasing commercial software products rather than growing their own. The FOSS lobby should be taking steps to influence Ottowa’s decisions just as Microsoft has done.

    Being competitive doesn’t mean you can just sit on your hands.

  30. oiaohm says:

    In fact no. is openbgpd replacement on everything other than OpenBSD, Windows and OS X.

    Now for more coverage. This includes Linux OpenBSD, Windows, OS X, FreeBSD….. then there is bird.

    openbgpd is basically another BSD world we will not use GPL code bases.

    –it gives you more options and great capabilities with better security.–

    OpenBSD has less hardware support than Linux. Less capabilities than Linux. The better security record you can claim.

    In fact to reduce number of strange bugs inside your network using the same routing software on everything can be a good thing. xorp and Quagga are popular for that reason. openbgpd is not that popular because it only works well on one platform.

    Quagga due to include Babel is closer to what is inside closed source cisco routers than what openbdgd is.

    Sorry Aieee a Ballhogg BSD stuff is not the be all and end all. Babel is a MIT licensed protocol that Opendbgd has not implemented yet.

    Best openbsd machine is achieved mixing some GPL project in due to the fact lot of BSD only project are not up with the latest features.

  31. Aieee a Ballhogg says:

    Cisco is another way agencies throw money away. Simple comparison shopping for other brands of off-the-shelf hardware with the same specs will save 70% or so. If one wants to take it further, one can build a better network on OpenBSD. That choice is not only FOSS, it gives you more options and great capabilities with better security.

Leave a Reply