M$ Bars Itself From New Industry

I had to smile when I read this article.“A Sydney library is claiming a world first: it’s going to add Apple iPads and Samsung Galaxy tablets to its lending shelves.”
see Council offers free iPads.

I hope this catches on. M$’s EULA forbids the lending of OEM-installed OS from M$… Chuckle. If libraries or other businesses get into lending/leasing small cheap computers, M$’s OS will not be there except a higher cost because M$ always likes to “get value” for every use of its OS. Another failure for the non-Free software players.

It’s not far-fetched. I can see a raft of tablets in doctors and dentists’ waiting rooms, buses and trains with the things built-in to the vehicles. Airplanes are already doing it. Why not everyone else including the family car? Small cheap computers fit everywhere and M$ does not belong.

M$’s business lock-in is about all that will be left in a few years and it is being eaten by the new trend to tablets and thin clients. It’s all good. What the world’s governments couldn’t do, the market is finally getting around to fixing, the Wintel monopoly disease.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

34 Responses to M$ Bars Itself From New Industry

  1. kozmcrae says:

    @ bw

    You don’t even know who the hell you are talking to.

    Add to that, you are a Microsoft history revisionist. Typical Microsoft troll work. Fortunately for us, you have to lie repeatedly to try to keep up a respectable front for Microsoft. It’s only going to get worse for you and the Cult of Microsoft.

    I think your days are numbered here too bw. Like most Microsoft trolls you can’t do your dirty work without stepping out of the bounds of civility.

  2. oiaohm says:

    bw so you did not read the Redhat EULA.

    Really you have to quit making stuff up the reality is you cannot rent Microsoft Windows 7+ without paying extra costs.

    bw don’t be a bad loser. I have given you one reference link and you did not dispute that instead attacked my words.

  3. bw says:

    Quit making things up. You are just putting words together with no hope of making any sense. You apparently know nothing at all about this.

  4. oiaohm says:

    bw
    –Ignoring the fact that we were discussing warranties for circular saws, I would be delighted if you could find any independent corroboration of such a strange concept.–

    Download and read the Redhat License http://www.redhat.com/licenses/ Yes its a form of Warranty license. Lists out what terms Redhat will help and repair your systems. SUSE, Oracle, IBM also provides a form of Warranty license on FOSS items.

    You were using circular saws as a analogue against software to say you were allowed todo something with software. I am allowed to give the alignment back to software licensing. Warranty does align back to particular forms of Software Licenses from Particular companies.

    bw basically a warranty form license is quite a common Licensing between FOSS software support company that supports a particular product and end user. Normally written up called EULA’s even that they are nothing like MS EULA’s.

    bw now you see why Linux people see MS EULA as so bad. Where are the offers of support and how to buy support from Microsoft.

    There is a major difference in licensing between FOSS and Closed source worlds.

  5. bw says:

    “That business about making everything up is patently false.”

    Your posts are rife with such statements. Take for example “Anti-trust started Microsoft demand” just above. Since the Microsoft “monopoly” did not exist until it grew into a universal sort of demand, it is not possible for any antitrust activity to be responsible for the demand unless you want to claim that it is an anticompetitive act to develop a high demand product.

    “So a warranty is a form of license you do find with FOSS”

    Ignoring the fact that we were discussing warranties for circular saws, I would be delighted if you could find any independent corroboration of such a strange concept. I would even accept a statement from Mr. Pogson noting agreement with your theory.

  6. oiaohm says:

    –You will find the warranty(yes form of license).–
    bw
    –So you claim that a warranty is a license and then go on to call me an idiot?–
    Yes you are the idiot.

    FOSS will have licenses at times sold with them that are in fact Warranties.

    So a warranty is a form of license you do find with FOSS software. Its not a form of license you find with closed source software that often.

    Sorry a warranty can be classed as equal to some forms of software licenses. Of course EULA and GPL would not be a warranty types software licenses.

    bw there are categories you sort software licenses into warranty is one pile.

    Sorry your english is weak bw. Form of License does not say that Warranty is a License. But that Software license can be a Warranty in some cases.

  7. kozmcrae says:

    bw wrote:

    “Just about everything that you post is made up and just a fool’s opinion.”

    That business about making everything up is patently false. You should recant that statement bw. An opinion is just an opinion.

  8. bw says:

    “In fact this is not Baloney”

    So you claim that a warranty is a license and then go on to call me an idiot? You are a true buffoon! (If your English is as weak as you show it, that would be “tree-swinger”, I’m told, in Australia.)

    Just about everything that you post is made up and just a fool’s opinion. You constantly embarrass yourself.

  9. oiaohm says:

    bw –Baloney. There is no license agreement whatsoever that goes along with buying a circular saw of any grade. I can buy it at Home Depot and rent it out to as many people as I can find who want to do it. I can pool my money with 10 friends and buy a fancy one and share it, too. No licensing at all.–

    In fact this is not Baloney. You will find the warranty(yes form of license) of particular devices is voided in case of failure doing what you descript. Also using device outside manufactures specifications(for of usage restriction) and something goes wrong no liability lands on manufacture. Renting a device against manufactures specifications gets you into major trouble when something goes wrong.

    Of course you would be a idiot and not read those things.

    bw
    –The usage of a computer containing an OS is at issue here, not the rental of the software itself. I think that the OS merely forms the apparatus and the disposition of the apparatus is not subject to copyright restrictions, since the OS is being used in its intended fashion.–
    No a computer is just a storage device for the Copyrighted OS. Sorry disposition of apparatus has to conform to the software contained.

    Intended Fashion of the OS is stated in the EULA and other license agreements.

    Computer hardware can be stripped of OS if you don’t want to obey license terms of that OS.

    bw sorry computer hardware and OS are two separate parts.

    bw console games include arcade consoles. This has legally tested if game in rom chips in the console license has to be obeyed or not. Yes the ruleing was that you could pull the rom chips and fit your own software if you don’t agree with the license even if the machine is 100 percent design only to play that game and no other software exists for that machine. Basically obey the software license or accept the machine bricked. This is many times more intrusive than removing Windows from a PC.

    bw an Operating system and MS Office are both Applications. You cannot apply different rules to both. So if MS Office is fine to have renting restriction then its fine for MS Windows to have renting restriction.

    bw just man up and accept the reality. All the legal test cases are done. There is no possibility of winning in court with your arguement.

    –I don’t think you are being fair here. Microsoft did not buy up all the access to some necessity in some region like gasoline, oil, diamonds, water, etc..–

    In effect they did this came a base of an anti-trust case. The I will pay Microsoft for every computer I sell even if it don’t contain Microsoft products to be able to sell Microsoft products they did early on.

    Anti-trust started Microsoft demand. Stopping it and returning to correct balance is hard.

  10. bw says:

    “M$’s empire is all about enriching a few while enslaving many”

    I don’t think you are being fair here. Microsoft did not buy up all the access to some necessity in some region like gasoline, oil, diamonds, water, etc.. Rather they built a product from scratch and created a strong demand that allows them to set their terms and conditions for its use by people who strongly crave it. They have similarly made others who want to sell it in distribution channels toe the line set by their rules on how it can be sold.

    They created the product and people came to them. That is not enslavement at all. If you want to be negative, it is more like “pandering” if you want to cast users as acting against their own self-interests.

    There are limits, though, and the rental rights issue is bumping up against one. If they are using the law as a threat to induce people to pay to avoid confrontation that is not acceptable to me. I do not think that the rental of a computer can be constrained although I am willing to concede on using applications such as MS Office. .

  11. bw says:

    “the rental limitation exists on your DVD, Blueray’s even VHS tapes, and console games”

    Those are copyrighted media with accompanying licenses. The discussion is about apparatus. Learn the difference.

    The usage of a computer containing an OS is at issue here, not the rental of the software itself. I think that the OS merely forms the apparatus and the disposition of the apparatus is not subject to copyright restrictions, since the OS is being used in its intended fashion.

    Loaning a computer with MS Office installed for the purpose of using MS Office might fit a EULA restriction, but I think the OS has to be considered differently.

    “You technically cannot lend them without a renters license.”

    Baloney. There is no license agreement whatsoever that goes along with buying a circular saw of any grade. I can buy it at Home Depot and rent it out to as many people as I can find who want to do it. I can pool my money with 10 friends and buy a fancy one and share it, too. No licensing at all.

  12. oiaohm says:

    bw the rental limitation exists on your DVD, Blueray’s even VHS tapes, and console games.

    http://www.ehow.com/how_6122178_start-movie_rental-business.html

    –It would be like DeWalt not allowing Abbey Rents the right to rent its circular saws or other power tools without paying an additional fee. —
    In fact that is the case for some items from other firms other than DeWalt.

    Some makers other than DeWalt make tools for home usage only not rated for commercial usage these items Abbey Rents is not allowed to rent those. Some time walk around the tool rental places and attempt to find a home only rated tool. There are none because they cannot rent those.

    Sorry bw you don’t live in the real legal world. About time you do.

    bw what Microsoft is doing is perfectly legal was tested on video media and computer game media.

    http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html Fair use does not come into it.

    –The rental rights issue tries to constrain the owner’s own right to that beneficial use by denying him the right to share it with others, either for pay or out of kindness.–
    Lot of people illegal trade genuine dvd and computer games with friends. You cannot swap those without writing up a invoice legally to transfer them. You technically cannot lend them without a renters license.

    bw copyright law is ugly.

    If you don’t like these constants use creative commons and FOSS software.

  13. bw wrote, “Someone needs to take this to court.”

    The courts are an expensive route for any small organization or start-up. It’s far easier to beg M$ to take more money to allow business to continue. The crime of the century is that governments are not shutting down M$’s scam globally. Everything M$ does is about propping up monopoly and that harms consumers, businesses, governments and whole countries, yet governments have not had the gumption to smack them down.

    Monopolies are not necessarily a bad thing when it’s about common utilities but M$’s empire is all about enriching a few while enslaving many. M$’s licensing fee, ~$50 for M$ and ~$50 for OEMs far exceeds market value considering that the cost all-in for GNU/Linux is ~$20. Then there are all the other negative impacts: re-re-reboots, slowing down, malware, less vibrant software industries and dumbing down of the world’s students.

  14. bw says:

    I am fascinated by the likely ramifications of this rental limitation. I cannot find where it has ever been really tested in court. Of course the Rental Rights licenses are fairly new, too.

    I am not a lawyer, but I think that the fair use aspect of copyright law reasonably applies here. The OS is duly licensed to a computer that is owned by someone and becomes an integral part of the system that provides some stated beneficial use. The rental rights issue tries to constrain the owner’s own right to that beneficial use by denying him the right to share it with others, either for pay or out of kindness.

    It would be like DeWalt not allowing Abbey Rents the right to rent its circular saws or other power tools without paying an additional fee.

    Someone needs to take this to court.

  15. oiaohm says:

    Lending the tablet is about the only way to lend a lot of DRM protected ebooks. This is why libraries are doing it.

    Using Microsoft PC’s for this role is not an option.

    http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/Microsoft_Introduces_Rental_Rights_Licensing.aspx

    https://mspartner.microsoft.com/en/us/Pages/Licensing/rental-rights.aspx

    There is the license you have to pay to rent out a Windows PC.

    bw when the BSA starts auditing a lot of people are up the crappier. Since windows 7 you require this extra license to run a Internet cafe.

    –There are convenience PCs scattered all over the country in hotels and business centers that do nothing but provide browser access.–
    Yes all of those when they upgrade to Windows 7 or latter are required to pay the Rental if they charge for the usage.

    bw basically yes its against the rules to rent out a Windows 7 or 8 machine to many people without a Rental license add-on.

    –The BSA or Microsoft or whoever has a dog in that race is not going to prosecute anyone ever over that issue.–
    Its BSA and yes if you do that as a company and get caught you are in trouble. bw.

    About time you catch up with Microsoft licenses.

  16. oiaohm says:

    bw you did not read link did you.

    http://www.bsadefense.com/main/about-the-business-software-alliance-bsa-faq.aspx

    Q. Does the BSA ever reject proofs of entitlement?

    I can pull other firms that handle BSA issues. Not some poor target as such.

  17. bw says:

    “M$ sell a licence for lending that has to be paid on top of a licence to use the OS.”

    I see it, but I can’t believe it. You are 100% correct in thinking that this would put an added expense to anything that a library might do in terms of lending Windows PCs to others. I am stunned.

    There are convenience PCs scattered all over the country in hotels and business centers that do nothing but provide browser access. I may look into selling with them a Linux OS and Firefox browser as a business. It looks like the unit price for the rental rights is about $35 per unit, although volume deals are much less.

  18. bw says:

    ” Maybe you have not been here long enough to read them.”

    There was a bunch of posts a while back about the Ernie Ball guy who got caught using a whole lot more licenses for stuff than he had purchased. At the end of the day he admitted that it was true but that it was some sort of honest mistake. That’s his story, but he is not a neutral observer.

    In any case that was an out and out piracy incident. What we are talking about here is whether you can lend someone your computer. The BSA or Microsoft or whoever has a dog in that race is not going to prosecute anyone ever over that issue.

    I doubt that you can find a single story where the undisputed facts show any abuse by the BSA or Microsoft over licensing issues. Everything that I have found is either undocumented and anecdotal with no details or is a case of outright piracy. You do not have a leg to stand on.

  19. bw, apologizing still for M$, wrote, “Anyway, it is crazy to think that Microsoft would sue anyone who wanted to load his/her computer to someone else or a company that let anyone use their computers under whatever circumstances they wished.

    In the history of man, there has never been any such action taken by Microsoft. That bogey man cannot frighten anyone.”

    M$ sell a licence for lending that has to be paid on top of a licence to use the OS.

    A licence is required and they will prosecute or have the BSA do it. What do you think M$ does when people violate the terms of a licence?

  20. ram wrote, “renting a tablet for the ‘weekly visit’ makes complete sense.”

    I doubt it is a good business. Remember businesses that rented VHS? Where are they now? I think rental might work at the top end but not for low/mid-range devices. Rental might work as a try-before-you-buy option. Try it for a week then buy it at a discount off the new price. That might help grow the market and reduce risks for consumers. My wife bought BB Z10 but has regrets. She keeps asking me for help but there’s no one to help me… Radical departures in hardware/software face an uphill battle to gain share. It is far better to improve performance rather than feature-set. Try-before-you-buy works to sell performance. I used it many times to convince people to switch to GNU/Linux.

  21. oiaohm wrote, “Edge of city maybe no ADSL coverage and maybe people not wanting a sat dish next door.”

    In Canada, that service is provided by niche ISPs who have radiators at the tops of high buildings in the city. A small mesh dish on the roof works as long as it has a line of site to the antenna. I used that system at the last home we had in Winnipeg. It worked well for years until a giant tree a few hundred yards away got in the way. We then switched to cable. These ISPs have a range of over 15 miles if trees are not a problem. The mesh dish was about 2 feet by 1 foot and almost invisible from the next yard.

    Similar technology can be implemented by neighbours sharing wifi if one has a good connection but it is not necessarily legal commercially. A cooperative is likely legal as long as they buy a commercial connection. There are wifi antennae that look a lot like the mesh dishes and have a range ~1km or so, about right for rural/semi-rural setups.

  22. oiaohm says:

    ram Australia we have fall back to satellite. But satellite is not without its issues.

    http://www.westnet.com.au/satellite-broadband/plans.html

    Australia has a very decent min bandwidth level everywhere the are geostationary sats above Australia providing it placed there by many companies.

    ram I do have a sat phone with wifi access point option as well. So I really do have Internet everywhere in the world.

    The problem in Australia happens in the area between down-town and the start of rural. Rural fine they are sat. Edge of city maybe no ADSL coverage and maybe people not wanting a sat dish next door.

  23. ram says:

    I can see this whole lending/renting/leasing out of Linux tablets and computers really gaining legs. Especially in ‘third world’ countries such as Australia were most of the country has very limited bandwidth (if any). Buying a machine does not make sense for most people who live outside of the downtown of a major city, but renting a tablet for the ‘weekly visit’ makes complete sense.

  24. oiaohm says:

    bw its not Microsoft who does the enforcement actions.

    –Anyway, it is crazy to think that Microsoft would sue anyone who wanted to load his/her computer to someone else or a company that let anyone use their computers under whatever circumstances they wished.–

    So I don’t dispute this as true. But this is also deceptive because you have an major omission. Microsoft has nothing todo with Enforcement of the licenses on its products.

    Microsoft gives all the enforcement work to the BSA.==So they do nothing==So they are using three wise monkeys defense==Hear no evil-See no Evil-Speak no Evil-Does not make evil magically not exist

    Microsoft claiming to be clean does not make a buckles difference to those who end up attacked by the BSA for not conforming to the Microsoft License documentation.

    bw Linux people are use the likes Redhat and Orcale Licenses. What are number of active copies. So yes we can transfer without questions to a new machine as long as we remove it from the old machine.

    The same limitations that Robert Pogson pulled out on Windows 7 Basic are in Windows 7 Home Premium and Professional other than the CPU ones that do change a little with version. In fact they exist in Windows 8 licenses as well. How many do you want me quote bw.

    bw are you willing now to attempt to claim the BSA will not hit you over it. I can dig out the BSA horror stories where they have. If you want to go down this path lets go. The links are on this site in prior posts comments. Maybe you have not been here long enough to read them.

  25. bw says:

    “Notice, it says “you”, not someone else.”

    “You” refers to whomever is reading the license terms. It may be the person who bought the system originally or the person who got it used later on eBay. What is most important is the clause:

    “The software license is permanently assigned to the computer with which the software is distributed”

    And, just for completeness’ sake:

    “You may transfer the software directly to a third party only with the licensed computer.”

    And even more importantly:

    “This agreement does not change your rights under the laws of your state or country if the laws of your state or country do not permit it to do so”

    Does anything come with Home Basic anymore? Premium seems to be the bottom of the barrel these days. Anyway, it is crazy to think that Microsoft would sue anyone who wanted to load his/her computer to someone else or a company that let anyone use their computers under whatever circumstances they wished.

    In the history of man, there has never been any such action taken by Microsoft. That bogey man cannot frighten anyone.

  26. bw wrote, “Where is there anything even remotely showing that Microsoft bans the practice or any EULA language saying that the software is only valid for the original owner?”

    OEM EULA “7”:
    “These license terms are an agreement between you and the computer manufacturer that distributes the software with the computer, or the software installer that distributes the software with the computer.

    Licensed Computer. You may use the software on up to two processors on the licensed computer at one time. Unless otherwise provided in these license terms, you may not use the software on any other computer.

    You may not

    · rent, lease or lend the software; or
    · use the software for commercial software hosting services.”

    Notice, it says “you”, not someone else.
    Read it yourself. I requested “7 Home Basic”

    On top of all the silly restrictions, I see they actively encourage me to run GNU/Linux on Beast. Beast has four processors.

  27. oiaohm says:

    bw in fact what is acceptable to court is not acceptable to BSA.

    http://www.bsadefense.com/main/our-methodology-cooperate.aspx

    Full and correct purchase information that the BSA wants has to include more details than what a court will accept.

    BSA does not recognised purchased in good faith or want to recognised purchased from liquidation. Any way you can acquire Windows cheep and legal is not recognised at all.

    –A defendant can argue inferentially or directly as to the fact that the software was legally obtained.–
    No BSA operates like patent troll. They make sure the money they ask for is less than the cost of going to court. So hopefully you will pay up instead of demanding your legal rights.

    bw BSA in the USA does not operate on Information and Belief correctly. There are sections that a court respect but BSA does not. Like the good faith purchase or machines acquired second hand with COA stickers on them.

    BSA here in Australia is forced to recognise them or be shut down by Fair-trading. But you do still have to remind them that all you have todo is pick up phone and call fair trading. Basically back off or have your complete company assets taken.

    USA and other countries are way too soft on letting the BSA get away with stuff.

    bw a lent machine without rent/lend agreement information found in a BSA audit will be classed as acquired by the business.

    Yes BSA pain in the ass paper work. At least it normally does not cause Australian businesses problem since the BSA is force to recognise COA sticker on machine as valid proof of ownership.

    Yes BSA can ask who and where you got it from and go investigate and pick on them.

    Australia BSA has to hunt the suppliers of illegal wares not the poor end users that get stuck with them and thinking they acquired them legally.

    USA BSA gets to hunt the end users.

  28. bw says:

    “BSA will attempt to kick company s for not have full and correct purchase information.”

    Not true at all. The BSA will prosecute license violators based on “information and belief” of such violations and would have to present such evidence in court. A defendant can argue inferentially or directly as to the fact that the software was legally obtained.

  29. bw says:

    “M$ sent out letters demanding new licences to businesses trying to do some of those things. The EULA conveys a licence to run the software sometimes for the current owner only and for the current hardware”

    The issue is specifically “lending a computer to someone”. Where is there anything even remotely showing that Microsoft bans the practice or any EULA language saying that the software is only valid for the original owner?

  30. oiaohm says:

    bw let me tell you something. I have used Debian for years.

    The clean install on this machine was over 10 years ago. The PC it was installed on clean is no more. Not a single part remains other than a copy of than OS that has been updated in place so there is most likely nothing even left of the OS.

    Debian does not fight you changing hardware under it. No activation failure or other issues.

    bw
    –You can destroy, sell, lend, rent out, or abandon your Windows based Dell and no one will molest you.–

    I abandoned my old system piece by piece in a fairly non disruptive way. I guess you mean no one will molest you if you abandon it by as one piece or sell it off as once piece or lend it as one piece. Product activation will molest you if you go piece by piece.

    BSA will attempt to kick company s for not have full and correct purchase information.

  31. bw wrote, “the OS is licensed for use on the original computer that it shipped with and what happens to that computer down the road is not binding on the OS itself. You can destroy, sell, lend, rent out, or abandon your Windows based Dell and no one will molest you. That is a fact.”

    No. It’s not. M$ sent out letters demanding new licences to businesses trying to do some of those things. The EULA conveys a licence to run the software sometimes for the current owner only and for the current hardware. It’s a stupid restriction on use of IT that is not present with GNU/Linux.

  32. bw says:

    I think your interpretation of whatever it is in the MS EULA that you are reading is rather bizarre, at its kindest. If anything, the OS is licensed for use on the original computer that it shipped with and what happens to that computer down the road is not binding on the OS itself. You can destroy, sell, lend, rent out, or abandon your Windows based Dell and no one will molest you. That is a fact.

  33. As the cost of small touchscreen hardware and low wattage processors continues to decline, it’s a cinch that the world should be pretty much saturated with these devices. Android/Linux everywhere!

  34. dougman says:

    Whenever I am out fixing a Windows PC, I either lend customers a Chromebook or show them how to boot to a Live CD so as to still access the web.

    M$ failings should be no reason why one cannot use the Internet.

Leave a Reply