Do The Maths, M$. $20 Is Not A Large Enough Discount To Matter

Faced with languishing sales of legacy PCs with “8” because the price is too high, M$ offers future discounts, according to Digitimes.
“For below 10.8-inch notebooks, tablets and hybrids, Microsoft will offer the US$20 discount plus free Office 2013 software, the sources indicated. OEM licensing rates for Windows 8 Pro stand at US$80-90 currently, the sources noted.”
see Microsoft to offer discount on Windows 8 OEM prices.

Get over it, M$. The days when you could dictate to OEMs are over. If they cannot sell your product on a $500 (or $300) PC, they cannot sell it on a $480 (or $280) PC either. People don’t want your OS and all its limitations, malware, re-re-reboots and genuine disAdvantages. They want FLOSS. It works for them and not against them.

M$ are at the edge of a cliff. They raised prices to milk the usual cash-flow from the truly locked-in and now even they aren’t buying it. There is either going to be a dramatic fall in prices or a dramatic fall in share of the market. Even at $0, I think the price/performance of that other OS is poor so expect prices M$ charges OEMs to fall to $10-$20 over the next year. This will affect “7” as well because they can’t sell “7” at too much higher a price than “8”.

Of course, the right choice is to think long-term and migrate sooner rather than later to FLOSS. M$ will have to do that eventually. They just want to put it off to the last possible year. That could be in two or three years. Even then cash-flow will drop to a fraction of present values and layoffs are inevitable. I hope they start with Ballmer and Gates.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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44 Responses to Do The Maths, M$. $20 Is Not A Large Enough Discount To Matter

  1. oiaohm says:

    bw this is why I call you sheep and idiot.

    http://www.classicshell.net/ is free does basically the same thing.

    http://www.startisback.com/license.txt
    –7. Use the SOFTWARE on the computers configured as multi-user Remote Desktop servers.
    8. Use the SOFTWARE on the computers intended for public access, such as kiosks and terminals.–

    Not exactly a good license.

    Classicshell is what you should recommend at least this way you can have 100 percent cross company consistency. Same level of warranty on classic shell no possibility of using it incorrectly and is cost effective.

    Also with Classicshell you can find out the real names of the people behind it.

    Problem here I am very suspect that startisback might be paying the very people who removed the feature in the first place. Its a bit strange they are not willing to list who they are.

    bw I don’t like software built by anonymous. Yes good foss software has repositories that track who did what so is not built by anonymous.

  2. DrLoser says:

    Let me try to understand you, Kevin.

    The traditional way restart on Windows is to click blah-di-blah-di-blah.

    The Win8 way is to click di-blah-di-bah-di.

    Awful, isn’t it?

  3. bw says:

    “No one could figure out how to restart the computer either”

    That was a bit of a mystery to me, too. I had to type “How to restart Windows 8” into the Bing thing and I found out almost immediately, though. Then I found an app in the Windows store called StartIsBack which put the good old start button back on the command bar in desktop mode and even boots to that mode if you set a check box. If you do that, everything works just like Windows 7 except that you still have the Start panel on the bottom if you want to go to Metro mode and the right swipe as well.

    I have to admit that I use the Win7 mode mostly, but I have been using the Metro stuff more and more. I do like the instant on feature for these programs and the status tiles. Also, the full screen windowing without the “chrome” around it starts to grow on you with time. It’s like a phone, sort of.

  4. Kevin Lynch says:

    “No one could figure out how to restart the computer either. (You have to swipe from the right and access the Settings menu, then select power, then restart.)”

    I think this really says it all. When you’ve run out of ideas to the point where you have to mess around with something as simple as restarting the PC. It’s time to pack up and close up shop.

  5. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog
    –It does? I sure didn’t see it. Not with 2000, not with XP, not with Vista, not with 7. So what exactly did I walk into? Are your delusions flaring up again?–
    Really —

    Did you miss like the extra include bookmarks or extra like Internet service providers custom linking packages. Preinstalled flash yes that is out of date by the time you get windows appears in XP.
    http://articles.cnn.com/2001-09-12/tech/microsoft.flash.xp.idg_1_macromedia-s-flash-windows-xp-microsoft-s-internet-explorer?_s=PM:TECH
    Better its not updated by Windows update.

    Clean install and you left running what I call crapware. I should call it security hole ware. Der Balrog products MS paid a one time contract or so to bundle that they don’t have the source code to so don’t have the means to repair the security flaws in them. Yes Microsoft is guilty of poor quality bundling themselves. Just look at the parts inside windows they don’t make.

    Yes 2000 was in fact fairly clean. XP on MS goes a little bit off the rails.

    –We were just talking about a clean install. OEM junk is OEM junk. And encouraging someone is not the same as ordering someone to do something. And Microsoft hasn’t been ordering OEMs to pre-install junk.–
    When I say encouraging the default templates for OPK from Windows 7 and Vista include installing MS Office trial. To avoid this you have to go out of way. Even latter Windows XP OPK are setup this way.

    This is basically as close as you can get to ordering it without ordering it. Remember OEM are meant to use the OPK install method. This is direct encouragement to bundle like mad.

    Basically Microsoft made all the tools to make it dead simple for OEM’s to bundle applications like mad. What did Microsoft think would happen.

    Linux distribution you take it bundle like mad attempt to ship that under the Linux Distribution trademark get your ass sued off. You have to use a different trademark.

    Linux world can stop crapware installs quite effectively. So user walks up sees some strange distribution on something. Hey that full of crap moves along to the next machine.

    Microsoft has a trademark. They have the laws over corporate dress abuse. If Microsoft slapped a few OEM over the wrist as they legally could do crapware free computers would appear really quickly.

  6. Der Balrog says:

    Der Balrog you walked into that one. Clean install Windows does install so much crap by default.

    It does? I sure didn’t see it. Not with 2000, not with XP, not with Vista, not with 7. So what exactly did I walk into? Are your delusions flaring up again?

    And what junk are you talking about?

    In fact Microsoft directly encouraged the OEM to install trial of MS Office. So the crapware on windows is partly Microsoft fault.

    We were just talking about a clean install. OEM junk is OEM junk. And encouraging someone is not the same as ordering someone to do something. And Microsoft hasn’t been ordering OEMs to pre-install junk.

  7. eug says:

    “The most obvious explanation for why hundreds of millions of people continue to buy Windows computers instead of rooting around for a bargain Linux computer or jumping through hoops to roll their own system is that they, too, can afford whatever price difference there may be and value their convenience more than their treasure.”

    This is not the only reason.
    Culture (20 years of MS dominance) e inertia
    are valid reasons too.

    Today linux is more userfriendly than windows.

  8. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog you walked into that one. Clean install Windows does install so much crap by default.

    With XP Microsoft included a stack of sponsored links. Guess what Australia gets USA Windows install discs. So we had a stack of useless USA junk.

    To be truefull so does ubuntu install so much junk by default.

    In fact Microsoft directly encouraged the OEM to install trial of MS Office. So the crapware on windows is partly Microsoft fault. You cannot have do as I say not do as I do. Microsoft is basically saying to OEM since you want us to bundle your trial ware on your OS is fine to bundle other trialware.

    –So we can safely agree that this is not Microsoft’s fault.–
    So exactly why does MS allow OEM’s to produce installation discs that bundle the crapware in so users can not simply do a clean reinstall with what they were provided with.

    Der Balrog there are a lot of places in the crapware problem where MS is to blame. Just they don’t take the problem serous-ally to fix it.

  9. Der Balrog says:

    Of course he avoids the fact that it’s there in the first place. Why should the user have to deal with crapware in the first place? They shouldn’t.

    I’ll make this short: there are TWO ways how crapware gets onto a computer. It is pre-installed by the OEM. Or the user installs it. So we can safely agree that this is not Microsoft’s fault.

  10. kozmcrae says:

    Trollrog wrote:

    “Why don’t they just remove the crapware and other superfluous stuff?”

    Of course he avoids the fact that it’s there in the first place. Why should the user have to deal with crapware in the first place? They shouldn’t. Nor should they have to pay good money to deal with malware or pay extra for office software. You’re a buffoon Trollrog. You bluff and boast your way through comments. You are a typical Microsoft troll. No substance. Just FUD and fluff. You are repeating the same old junk we’ve been hearing from the Linux Haters blog for years now. You are a retread.

  11. oiaohm says:

    bw sorry I did not call everyone a sheep.

    I called you a sheep. You never did check out what the true competition to bottle water was. This is a sheep action not an action of a thinker.

    I am not saying that all Windows users are sheep. Some are.

    –But the truth is that you are still missing the point and do not seem to recognize why things are the way they are and continue to be.–
    No last bit is wrong. I am a person who knows history. If you have not noticed that bad luck. Rule of history is stuff does not continue to be unless it remain beneficial.

    Next rule from of history is change can be slow but there is change always change.

    Change over the last 10 years has moved a lot in FOSS favour. Things like getting governments to release more data in more platform neutral formats.

    You only see change if you look for it bw. The changes required for Linux desktop to get somewhere have been happening. Of course the problem is it like having a bolder on a hill. Taking away 1 stone stopping it rolling at a time. The bolder does not appear to change. But one day the last stone stopping it moving is removed. Then things get interesting. An observe person would notice the change.

    At another clue you are a sheep bw is lack of observance of changes.

  12. Der Balrog says:

    Those that have seen GNU/Linux run side by side with that other OS certainly have seen M$ as a problem. […] They like the fact that they can spend their day using IT instead of being used by it. I knew one lady who tolerated 5 minutes per click of time wasted until she saw GNU/Linux.

    Blatant lies again, Pogson, blatant lies. And you accuse US of spreading “FUD”.

    Why don’t they just remove the crapware and other superfluous stuff? Don’t tell me it’s too hard for them. Doesn’t really count when you yourself are administrating your “little woman’s” computer(s).

    And this “lady who tolerated 5 minutes per click” … well, what can you say about such a person? That she lacks brain? Instead of getting rid of the problem she treated the symptom. Way to go! But maybe she, too, is just a figment of your imagination.

  13. bw wrote, “Millions upon millions of ordinary people have been using personal computers for 20 or 30 years and have not seen the Microsoft OS as a problem at all.”

    Those that have seen GNU/Linux run side by side with that other OS certainly have seen M$ as a problem. I’ve heard many ordinary folk say

    • “It’s so slow!”
    • “I hate “7”

    and the like. They like the fact that they can spend their day using IT instead of being used by it. I knew one lady who tolerated 5 minutes per click of time wasted until she saw GNU/Linux.

    There are OEMs selling GNU/Linux all over the world:

    • see LinuxPreloaded
    • 2006, Positivo in Brazil and Argentina stated: “by October 2005, 3% of its production was from Linux machines, and in December last year, thanks to the Computer for All, this figure jumped to 20%. Currently, 18% of the production of computer Positive for retail is equipment with free software.”
    • 2012, Positivo, on educational notebooks: “Positivo computers support Windows operating systems and Linux.”
    • Walmart.com.br lists 542 models of Linux PCs

    There’s a reason for that. Wintel is just too expensive and does not compete on price/performance.

  14. bw says:

    “No I have not. I have also not missed that you are the minority”

    Do you find yourself being asked to fewer and fewer proms each year? Think about it.

    I can see where you feel that your position is superior and how you can take pride in continually asserting that Linux is the choice of technical sophisticates. I don’t even disagree that your step by step reasoning is correct. But the truth is that you are still missing the point and do not seem to recognize why things are the way they are and continue to be.

    You use “sheep” as a derogatory term and smirk while causing yourself to miss the reality. Millions upon millions of ordinary people have been using personal computers for 20 or 30 years and have not seen the Microsoft OS as a problem at all. They see it as a thing that defines the essence of what is a personal computer versus what is something else, which could be a Mac, an iPhone, a Droid, or an iPad.

    You miss this important fact in your haste to denigrate anyone else’s opinion. Better to be a sheep than a fool.

  15. oiaohm says:

    bw
    –I think you must have some form of mental illness to persist in being so obtuse.–
    Are you still saying that city water is not competition to bottled?

    bw
    –Certainly it is more costly than many alternatives, but I have the means to indulge in such luxury and freely choose to do so. That was the point of the story, which you seem to have missed.–
    No I have not. I have also not missed that you are the minority. The majority either by soft drinks or juices or fill there own water bottles. In fact I left out soft drinks you were not smart enough to work that out. Bottle water is not the most costly in the provide water game.

    So since that statement is bogus of the majority this statement of your has to be called into question.
    –The most obvious explanation for why hundreds of millions of people continue to buy Windows computers instead of rooting around for a bargain Linux computer or jumping through hoops to roll their own system is that they, too, can afford whatever price difference there may be and value their convenience more than their treasure.–
    As what as been proven in cities that provide water bottle fill points the consumption of bottle water reduces. Like really why carry a bottles filled with water when you can care empty ones and fill them closer to where you will need it. Also the water can have better olds of being cold when you want to drink it.

    Convenience is the word. Bottle water teaches you this. Convenience also explains why at google the majority of desktops are Linux followed by OS X. At google staff can have what ever machine they want configured by the internal admins.

    bw what is stainless steel and holds water. For me its a stainless steel thermos. I have paid to make the water chilly I am going to have the best odds of drinking it that way. I spend more money in setup save more in the long run and get better results all the time. Of course not everyone is smart enough to think the problem through to get what they want.

    bw have you really sat down and thought about what you want and how to achieve it. The answer in my eyes is most likely no. You have just followed like a sheep what everyone else is doing. Filling into steel thermos means your water stays chilly for longer.

    This same lack of means to think threw means you cannot see where Linux will be used.

    bw you are a sheep idiot calling everyone who questions your sheep nature into question. You don’t want to face the fact your are a sheep bw.

  16. oiaohm says:

    bw of course you have just stated what I wanted you to.
    –The most obvious explanation for why hundreds of millions of people continue to buy Windows computers instead of rooting around for a bargain Linux computer or jumping through hoops to roll their own system is that they, too, can afford whatever price difference there may be and value their convenience more than their treasure.

    They get their satisfaction from simplified use of their computers and need not spend long periods of time trying to understand the intricacies that may lie under the covers. I have enough familiarity with these things to at least recognize that dweebs like yourself exist in spite of any opportunity for more reasonable alternative life styles, but most people just don’t care and you need to recognize that fact of life.–

    If you cannot work out everything you just said also applies to Chromebooks and Android.

    Here is a problem. The majority don’t pay for bottled water.

    bw you started this obtuse line. You had the mental illness to think it was a valid example that something that was free was not competition to something that was not.

    Basic core idea of yours was completely wrong.

    The important thing to wake up and take as reality is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

    Different parties will take different solutions. You take bottled water bought in bottles. I take water in volume I pack down into bottles. Both have the same market human drinking water.

    There are different level of complexity. Now if you are in a third world country getting clean water can be completely problematic.

    bw
    –Certainly it is more costly than many alternatives, but I have the means to indulge in such luxury and freely choose to do so.–

    Notice something. You were very straight up that the alternatives were not competition to bottle water. Same way you try to say Linux or related is not an alternative to windows.

    A lot of people still buy Linux computer and use them. Inside google about 50 percent of desktop/laptop computers are Linux. Next biggest is Apple. With Microsoft dead last.

    bw google pays for what every computer there staff wants.

    Maybe the issue is unlike for Google Staff Linux machines are not sitting on the shelf ready to go. If that is the only reason Microsoft has Market share it is not good.

  17. bw says:

    “There is more than 1 way to skin a cat”

    I think you must have some form of mental illness to persist in being so obtuse. I am willing to pay extra for the convenience of being able to reach into the refrigerator and take a bottle of chilled water with me when I drive somewhere or even to drink with a snack. Certainly it is more costly than many alternatives, but I have the means to indulge in such luxury and freely choose to do so. That was the point of the story, which you seem to have missed.

    The most obvious explanation for why hundreds of millions of people continue to buy Windows computers instead of rooting around for a bargain Linux computer or jumping through hoops to roll their own system is that they, too, can afford whatever price difference there may be and value their convenience more than their treasure.

    They get their satisfaction from simplified use of their computers and need not spend long periods of time trying to understand the intricacies that may lie under the covers. I have enough familiarity with these things to at least recognize that dweebs like yourself exist in spite of any opportunity for more reasonable alternative life styles, but most people just don’t care and you need to recognize that fact of life.

  18. oiaohm says:

    bw One. That is obvious. Did you really mean “at any one time”?

    A more pertinent question would be how many were needed to keep a stock at hand based on consumption. That would depend on what was a desired service interval.
    If you have a refilling station??
    A shelf in the fridge is dedicated to that and it holds a case of half liter bottles.
    You don’t need that many bottles. You only need that many if you are using pre-bottled water.

    There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Buying pre-Bottle water in small bottles is only 1 way. Filling stations that fill with chilled and filtered is another using city provided. Difference is those don’t need to take a full shelf in fridge.

    Final way is large bottles of spring or equal water linked to a filling station at house to break down into smaller bottles.

    Consumption is the problem solved by Filling stations. Filling stations you can work out the number of bottles you need by the number of bottles people will leave with and bring back. If using spring water quite a min number of bottles.

    Really sometime really check the volume of shelf space you are using. Then work out how many Litres you could really fit in there. Pre-bottled water is very much a space waster.

    In fact most places cheaper to buy a filler and large tanks of water compared to buying the 500 ml bottles you are buying now. Same water different delivery method. One of the most expensive items about bottled water is the transport followed second by the bottle. Both are reduced if how you get your water takes up less volume.

    bw reality here is you want to be lazy. So are paying a little tax for being lazy per bottle. But over a year that tax is quite large.

    Of course I am more aware of toxins than you most likely bw. The water in my cars and travels with me is in stainless steal and in house in glass bottles for drinking. Storage stainless steal. It fun when you test bottle water for toxins. Yes lots of places it safer to drink out tap than that plastic bottle of water you allowed to warm up in car. Stainless steal does not shatter does not put toxins into water if it does get hot.

    I hope you are not drinking pre-bottled water thinking its more healthy. In fact the larger the plastic bottle you use the lower the toxin risk. Yes its surface area to water.

    bw you are are almost buying the worst size for toxin. There is smaller bottle in some countries ie 250-300 ml water those are the worst.

    Yes save money do a minor amount of effort be healthier.

  19. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser –When I speak of “guff” I clearly mean the temporary mania of a few months back whereby Android was supposed to be the saviour of the Linux desktop.–

    You are not aware of course that Ubuntu for Phones plans include using Android video card drivers. Same with the other Open Source OS’s. Same with Ubuntu tablets. Same with other makers tablets.

    –Which it is unlikely to be. But, if it was, then surely this would conflict with the idea that Ubuntu is the saviour of the Linux desktop. The two ecosystems are radically different.–

    Dr Loser really so radically different. Funny enough its exactly what China wants. They don’t want a mono culture of phone OS’s at the moment.

    Sorry you are just a little too short of time frame. I did not say that was going to be quickly did I. Dr Loser.

    Dr Loser there is no grammar checker that integrates effectively with web browsers.

    Dr Loser
    –Ministry of Culture or the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs?–

    Both not it exactly. Ministry of Culture is close. Bureau of Culture is its old name of a department inside the Ministry of Culture before it got split in 2 and is simpler to type than the Current day names. Current day names is Department of Cultural Market and Department of Policies and Regulations (yes this is under the Ministry of Culture). Yes china internal restructures.

    Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs is another completely independent mess.

    Just to be trouble-sum. It is due to distributions at times containing art works like wallpapers. Dr Loser basically its bureaucracy gone mad.

  20. bw wrote, “They had a recognized brand and an open field and were giving it away, so “success” is not totally accurate since it has cost them a lot of money so far”

    A browsing system friendly to Google’s search and advertising is totally successful for them and most of the money invested in Android/Linux is in the Linux part so Google has a huge return on investment. What’s their share of the ARMed world? 60%? Wintel with Bing is what, 2%? How is that not success? Google has “only” 54K employees and gets to beat M$ with 94K at the OS game. That’s the power of FLOSS (and servers). In the computer-technology field growth is probably worth more than revenue too. What is Google’s projected income from all that Android/Linux installed base? Astronomical.

    M$ is stagnant in units shipped and Google is looking at expanding further in a few years than M$ did in decades… The mind boggles at the temerity of bw to call that failure. In addition, Google did it without anti-competitive machinations, no sweet deal from God (IBM) and no monopoly. They did it with hard work and imagination.

    The beauty of the future is that Google is not alone at growing despite M$’s schemes. There’s also Red Hat, Suse, many new OEMs of computing thingies like Samsung and Positivo (They ship a lot of GNU/Linux boxes_… The future is bright for those not licking M$’s boots.

  21. bw says:

    “And Canonical is failing.”

    http://www.internetnews.com/blog/skerner/canonical-ubuntu-linux-is-still-not-profitable.html

    One is sort of reminded of DeLorean’s stainless steel automobile. Trying to get into a well established business with an odd duck sort of product is not the conventional road to success.

    Google has run up a much better score by putting a product into a much newer market that essentially mimics the leader. They had a recognized brand and an open field and were giving it away, so “success” is not totally accurate since it has cost them a lot of money so far, but it is a better strategy than Canonical’s.

  22. bw says:

    “serous-ally how many bottles to hold water do you need at any one time.”

    One. That is obvious. Did you really mean “at any one time”?

    A more pertinent question would be how many were needed to keep a stock at hand based on consumption. That would depend on what was a desired service interval. If you had paid any attention to what I said, a week’s worth is what I usually have as a high limit. A shelf in the fridge is dedicated to that and it holds a case of half liter bottles. When the quantity lowers to a few remaining, I re-fill the shelf and they are sure to be chilled by the time they are accessed.

  23. Dr Loser says:

    Also Dr Loser I did provide that link back then that tracks the Android Linux mainlining progress so why the guff claim. That right you cannot do homework correctly.

    Have you ever done homework in “use of a grammar checker,” Hamster? Have you ever done homework in “ability to follow somebody else’s argument?”

    I think not. Neither is evident in your post.

    I don’t care about your link. I rarely care about your links, since they almost invariably prove nothing, or else the obverse of what you claim they prove. I follow them up almost religiously, though, when they have a bearing on the matter at hand.

    In this case, your link has no such bearing. When I speak of “guff” I am not disputing the evidence that some or all of Android’s kernel modifications have been integrated into the mainline. Why would I do that? It’s common knowledge. I don’t need a charlatan from the northern NSW bush to point it out to me.

    When I speak of “guff” I clearly mean the temporary mania of a few months back whereby Android was supposed to be the saviour of the Linux desktop. Which it is unlikely to be. But, if it was, then surely this would conflict with the idea that Ubuntu is the saviour of the Linux desktop. The two ecosystems are radically different.

    There, Hamster, is your “guff.” I’m not asking for much (in your case, I have given up asking for practically anything). Just try to stay consistent in your claims, that’s all.

  24. Dr Loser says:

    Ubuntu is not approved by Bureau of Culture in china. Asking if they run redflag linux or Asianux or Redhat you could get a positive answer.

    I don’t know if you noticed, Hamster, but the original assertion was that Ubuntu has 5% of the marke (taking Canonical’s entirely unbiased claims at face value).

    You are not exactly helping this line of argument, are you?

    Incidentally, do you mean the Ministry of Culture or the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs? What with you being the resident Sinophile expert on this site, I’m sure you can explain the confusion you have pointlessly injected by conflating the two.

  25. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog a new display server one reeks of stupidity. Not desperation.
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec?action=diff&rev2=4&rev1=3
    Yes go criticising competition without truly looking at how the competition works.

    This stupidity has another name. It is called not invented here syndrome.

    Not Invented Here Syndrome is what Ubuntu had from day one. Also they had it before they were Ubuntu it shows in the flaming wars of who would become lead Ubuntu developers in the Debian mailing lists. Short form of the debian mailing list was basically Future ubuntu maintainer accept these patched it make desktop better.
    Debian maintainer has upstream seen these patches.
    Future ubuntu maintainer no and some accuses and since they invented this fix it has to be good.
    Debian maintainer way in hell are we accepting that.

    Few months of this they storm off and make Ubuntu.

    Old saying absolute power corrupts absolutely. They had minor case of not invented here syndrome inside debian but once they got the power of being full maintainers this grew.

    Der Balrog the simple reason you don’t know enough to make judgement on Ubuntu. You were not aware there leads suffer from not invented here syndrome.

    Asking a person in china if they are running Ubuntu is likely to get the answer no even if they were as well Der Balrog.

    Ubuntu is not approved by Bureau of Culture in china. Asking if they run redflag linux or Asianux or Redhat you could get a positive answer.

    It would have been better to ask do they run a Linux based desktop computer. Saying yes to that is fine.

    This is the problem about asking questions about some countries how you ask it is critical so you don’t get them into trouble.

    Der Balrog ubuntu issues can basically been summed up in “not invented here syndrome”. This does include not listening to there end users.

  26. Der Balrog says:

    Well, clearly that’s not as solid as an SEC filing but Canonical has no reason to lie. They could have said “doing really well” or something but a number is more information.

    Well, being still in the red, they’re clearly not doing well. Building up ever more distance to the common Linux software infrastructure by building own versions of everything (most recent example: a new display server) reeks of desperation.

    What on Earth do you think those thousand Dell stores in India and China are selling? They could be selling a few thousand daily of GNU/Linux boxes.

    And yet there are people from China and India who tell a different story, like this Chinese, for example.

    michel memeteau
    Is it common to find Ubuntu preinstalled laptops at users homes in china ?

    Cedric Fung
    No.

    Priceless!

    […] Canonical is everywhere doing the same thing, so 5% is quite reasonable.

    Canonical is nowhere. Canonical is trying to get OEMs and users behind Ubuntu on the desktop, behind Ubuntu TV, behind Ubuntu Touch for phones and tablets, behind Ubuntu One, behind Ubuntu Music Store. Canonical is trying to enter crowded markets. And Canonical is failing.

    It’s the same level of effort as Apple makes but Apple concentrates on rich folk. Canonical and Dell deliver to all.

    Canonical can’t even afford the same level of effort.

    Then there’s the governments of India and France pushing Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Governments are huge purchasers of PCs. If they want GNU/Linux from OEMs it likely will be Ubuntu.

    Why would they buy PCs? Isn’t the Linux appeal that it supposedly runs on age-old hardware?

    More ludicrous armchair theorizing omitted.

  27. oiaohm says:

    bw your example is flawed.
    ==Is the city water a competitor for the bottled water company? I would not say so myself.==

    Some cities offer bottle filling taps. With a charge. Those city water are a direct competitor to bottle water. What is the charge for the filter to clean up the city water to be more drinkable.

    Some bottle water competitor is done FOSS style.
    http://www.blogto.com/environment/2012/08/quench_wants_you_to_re-fill_your_water_bottle/

    Yes there are some FOSS water out there. That you come into the business door to refill you water bottle you might buy something else while you are in there.

    This refilling does reduce bottle water sales. Is a direct competitor just like FOSS there is no record how much the service is being used.

    bw the shocking part is a lot of bottle water when you track it back a lot of it is just city water filtered.

    bw your city water might not be a competitor to bottled water. Other cities are.

    bw serous-ally how many bottles to hold water do you need at any one time.
    You might be better off investing in one of these for home style and just use your city provided water http://www.plumbingsupply.com/bottle-filling-stations.html

    Yes these filling stations are designed for being deployed inside a city. Does you city have points for refilling water bottles?

    bw you are most likely wondering why a city would bother competing against bottled water even if they don’t charge for the water. Simple who has to dispose of all the left over empty bottles that bottle water came in? The city. Yes its more costly to dispose of the bottles than what it is to give the water away free that you are paying to electricity to chill so that people refill there bottles.

    This is a really good example of the FOSS model.

    bw I don’t think you were thinking by picking bottled water vs city water you were picking perfect example of Closed Source vs FOSS. You have totally by mistake picked a perfect example.

  28. bw says:

    “Not good for a monopoly”

    Who says that they have a monopoly? I can buy a Windows computer or a Mac just about anywhere and I can even order one of those Linux things you occasionally link to at Wal-Mart or Amazon. I have a free choice and that is not a monopoly. Maybe there was less of a choice 20 years ago when the SEC and antitrust people were chasing after Microsoft, but that is not the case today.

    As far as I am concerned, though, 95% is close enough to 100% for any practical purpose and what some other company or group gives away only matters to the extent that it dilutes the available market. People buying a new PC will get a Mac or a Windows PC almost all the time.

    Do you use bottled water? I do, but maybe you don’t. I have a connection to the county water and sewer utility, too, but I buy a case or so of water each week and keep some cold all the time in the garage refrigerator. Is the city water a competitor for the bottled water company? I would not say so myself. People who do not buy bottled water are not in the market for it. People who build their own computers and install Linux are not in the PC market either.

    I suppose you might have a rain barrel connected to a downspout from your roof to get “FLOSS” water.

  29. Dr Loser wrote, “only a fool would believe a Canonical salesman’s boast of 5%”

    Well, clearly that’s not as solid as an SEC filing but Canonical has no reason to lie. They could have said “doing really well” or something but a number is more information.

    What on Earth do you think those thousand Dell stores in India and China are selling? They could be selling a few thousand daily of GNU/Linux boxes. That’s just 2/7 of the world’s population. Canonical is everywhere doing the same thing, so 5% is quite reasonable. It’s the same level of effort as Apple makes but Apple concentrates on rich folk. Canonical and Dell deliver to all.

    Then there’s the governments of India and France pushing Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Governments are huge purchasers of PCs. If they want GNU/Linux from OEMs it likely will be Ubuntu.

    Wikimedia reports Ubuntu GNU/Linux gets 0.69% of hits. That’s installed base. If the lifetime of a PC is about 6 years, 5% share of PC production ramped up from a few percent last year is consistent. A year earlier they were at 0.41%. The difference, 0.28%, of an installed base of 1500million PCs is 4 million PCs about 1% of annual production but Wikimedia gets few hits from India or China and not everyone uses Wikipedia so the share will be much larger.

    There’s a reason Canonical has salesmen visiting OEMs. It works. OEMs are finding a market for Ubuntu and it gives them a way out from under M$’s thumb and higher margins.

  30. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/inside_ms.aspx#RevenueHeadcount

    Show the exact stall I was talking about.
    June 30, 2012** 94,290 $74.30B 6% $23.60B 5%
    June 30, 2011 90,412 $69.94B 13% $23.15B 23%
    June 30, 2010 88,596 $62.48B 7% $18.76B 29%
    June 30, 2009 92,736 $58.44B -3% $14.57B -18%
    June 30, 2008 91,259 $60.42B 18% $17.68B 26%

    So from 2009 to 2012 Microsoft did not really grow. Now another collapse now. Redhat staff numbers over the same time frame just increase same with many others. If you like it or not 2009 shows a weakness in Microsoft.

    Dr Loser costing in 2009 is less than costing in 2012 for setting up a Microsoft network. So yes Microsoft has raised prices to recover. Problem is you cannot repeat this forever.

    If I was you with all the reduced sales numbers of Windows 8 that the fact Windows 8 is selling slower than Vista that trigger the 2009 drop. January 30, 2007 release of Vista. Crash sales turn up 2009.

    There is a 1-2 year lag in Microsoft between cause an effect. So I would be putting job applications out to other companies right now Dr Loser.

    http://elinux.org/Android_Mainlining_Project more has mainlined since I talked. Also Dr Loser I did provide that link back then that tracks the Android Linux mainlining progress so why the guff claim. That right you cannot do homework correctly.

    Binder is still a problem how todo it. There is also an issue that automotive Linux needs an equal thing. kdbus underway might be able to address both groups issues.

    About the only key thing not to make it mainline is network security of android. But android network secuirty is a hack from hell and it works without it. Selinux based androids don’t is the feature anyhow they do it by policy. There is a bit of talk if it should be done by cgroups.

    Basically download kernel source from kernel.org build with all the Android parts in the staging tree run a standard android no problems other than 1 missing feature that is fairly much broken.

    3.8 Linux kernel and the next Google android release the google developers might have decided on a replacement to the network security that does work properly. Basically the android network secuirty bit is universally agreed as screwed up. Problem is how to replace it. Selinux based androids replace it by policy. The problem is how do non Selinux androids replace it.

    bw Linux is insane hard count. –what can one say about Linux with maybe 0% of the money involved?–

    We know Linux support companies are doing well. We can see that valve is seeing over 2 percent users of Linux.

  31. Dr Loser says:

    I didn’t mean the feeble boasts of kernel integration, Robert: I can look those up for myself.

    In context I clearly meant: why are you boasting about Canonical’s obvious lies (only a fool would believe a Canonical salesman’s boast of 5%), when your previous position (I think) was that Android will Save The World?

    In which case Ubuntu is irrelevant. It’s not like either one of us likes it.

    Once again, you’d be better off with a consistent message. Try it for a change. It might be refreshing.

    Or you could flip-flop from day to day, which strikes me as somewhat contrary to the scientific method.

  32. Dr Loser wrote, “Whatever happened to that “Android is now in the mainstream Linux kernel” guff that oiaohm, amongst others, was promoting not two months ago?”

    “At the 2011 Kernel Summit in Prague, the kernel developers initiated the Android Mainlining Project. While many thought that this would take years to accomplish, the patches started appearing in Linux kernel version 3.3. Linux kernel versions 3.4, 3.5, and 3.6 included more patches. While there are a still a few patches that are still not part of the vanilla kernel, the bulk of the code is now mainlined. The fork in the river is now around the big island, with just a small stream following on its own path. In this sense, Android is no longer any different than any other distribution of Linux.”

    see http://www.all-things-android.com/content/android-kernel-versus-linux-kernel

    There is a lot of stuff in the linux kernel, e.g.
    “linux-3.8.2/arch/arm$ ls plat-samsung
    adc.c devs.c init.c pm.c s5p-clock.c s5p-irq-gpioint.c setup-camif.c clock.c dev-uart.c irq-vic-timer.c pm-check.c s5p-dev-mfc.c s5p-irq-pm.c setup-mipiphy.c clock-clksrc.c dma.c Kconfig pm-gpio.c s5p-dev-uart.c s5p-pm.c time.c cpu.c dma-ops.c Makefile pwm-clock.c s5p-irq.c s5p-sleep.S wakeup-mask.c dev-backlight.c include platformdata.c s3c-dma-ops.c s5p-irq-eint.c s5p-time.c

    linux-3.8.2/drivers/staging/android$ ls
    alarm-dev.c ashmem.h binder_trace.h logger.h ram_console.h timed_output.c android_alarm.h binder.c Kconfig lowmemorykiller.c timed_gpio.c timed_output.h ashmem.c binder.h logger.c Makefile timed_gpio.h TODO

    cat TODO
    TODO:
    – checkpatch.pl cleanups
    – sparse fixes
    – rename files to be not so “generic”
    – make sure things build as modules properly
    – add proper arch dependencies as needed
    – audit userspace interfaces to make sure they are sane

    Please send patches to Greg Kroah-Hartman and Cc:
    Brian Swetland

  33. eug says:

    “When “7″ runs out, what will the retailers move? GNU/Linux to the rescue.”

    A bit of wishful thinking.

  34. ram says:

    The OEMs that went with Microsoft and UEFI are really screwed. The Microsoft machines are not selling and with UEFI they are only good for scrap.

  35. Dr Loser says:

    Claims is claims, Robert.

    Validation is validation.

    And Ubuntu is not exactly the flavor du jour of operating systems, even around here. Whatever happened to that “Android is now in the mainstream Linux kernel” guff that oiaohm, amongst others, was promoting not two months ago?

  36. bw wrote, “Windows 8 has just about 100% of the market for PCs that are not Macs. “

    Clearly, that’s not the case. Canonical alone claims to have 5% of PCs this year, Fedora has tens of millions and then there’s Linpus doing well in Asia and others in Brazil and Germany etc. That leaves much less than 100% for that other OS and “7” is still selling where I look. If “8” had a huge share of PC shipments it’s not getting a huge share of sales. That’s why M$ is cutting prices again. Even NetApplications only gives “8” 2.3% after a whole quarter of sales, about 90 million units. If there are 1500 million legacy PCs on Earth, 2.3% is ~35million units, about 40% of units shipped. Not good for a monopoly. “7” is selling. When “7” runs out, what will the retailers move? GNU/Linux to the rescue.

  37. bw says:

    I don’t think that Windows 8 is a failure at all. Windows 8 has just about 100% of the market for PCs that are not Macs. PCs have been around for over 30 years now and are old hat. The boom markets are in tablets and phones now and the OS is not very important compared to the big question of iPad/Phone vs not.

    Microsoft sold hundreds of billions of dollars worth of Windows over the years and is still piling up the cash even today. If Windows 8 is a laggard, what can one say about Linux with maybe 0% of the money involved?

  38. Dr Loser says:

    Robert, have you figured out whether “raising prices” (not a long-term plan that works, according to your immediately previous post) or “cutting prices” (not a long-term plan that works, according to your present post) is the way to go?

    I guess Microsoft could always just keep prices where they are. Not a long-term plan that works, I assume.

    It’s one thing to hope against hope that Microsoft will miraculously disappear: follow your dreams, by all means.

    But do try to maintain a modicum of consistency between posts.

  39. Dr Loser says:

    Why is it a joke, Hamster? Microsoft will fine-tune (or fiddle, as you would prefer) the numbers in a way that makes it work for them. You must be particularly easy to amuse.

    I have to apologise and add a few concrete numbers to shatter your dreams here. (Don’t worry, you can “do the Maths” on these numbers, too. Maths depends upon axioms. Skew your axioms far enough, and you can skew the results.)

    Here’s a handy summary of head-count — I believe it doesn’t include vendors, so I would be the first to go, not Ballmer — revenue, income, and growth over the last ten years.

    Don’t even think about clicking on that link unless you do not suffer from high blood pressure or else are prepared to accept the awful reality that what you believe is, in fact, abject nonsense.

  40. oiaohm says:

    Really this is a joke.

    Robert Pogson number 1 Microsoft says they don’t support netbooks. Below 10.8-inch notebooks. Is a netbook by MS define without the ram limitations.

    Next I wonder how long before someone makes a tablet that docks into a bigger laptop case so they can have free MS Office 2013. Hey tablet is only 5 inchs across its entitled to the free MS Office. It docks into a 21 inch laptop so what the hell basically.

    This size splitting is not that wise for MS long term bottem line.

  41. dougman says:

    Vista > Windows 8

    http://www.inc.com/john-brandon/windows-8-epic-fail-of-the-decade.html

    Salient point:

    The problem: Users don’t get it. In my own tests with several family members over the last two weeks, handing a Surface RT tablet to someone unfamiliar with how it works is like asking them to run a nuclear power plant: They can pull a few levers and twist knobs, but no one is sure how anything works.

    One example: Not a single person could figure out how to close an app. This is not a power user function, either. Closing apps is a necessary step for conserving RAM and cleaning up your desktop. In some ways, it’s simple: You drag down from the top of the screen to the bottom. Yet, a simple gesture is not always intuitive to grasp at first. No one could figure out how to restart the computer either. (You have to swipe from the right and access the Settings menu, then select power, then restart.)

  42. bw says:

    “I hope they start with Ballmer and Gates.”

    You are such a sour-puss to be wishing such ill on the poor souls who slave away in Redmond! Fortunately, layoffs on any grand scale do not seem to be in the offing. If they were, it is hard to imagine billionaires like Ballmer and Gates feeling any personal pain from such an event.

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