PhotoShop Ported to Linux, more or less

For those who list lack of PhotoShopTM as a negative for GNU/Linux, look at this: “Edit and share photos virtually anywhere. Access them all on Photoshop.com Edit and share photos virtually anywhere. Touch to crop, rotate, adjust color, and add artis…”
see photoshop touch – Google Play.

Since one can run Android on GNU/Linux and the application or parts of it now run on Android/Linux, the great day is at hand where lovers of PS can use GNU/Linux to get the job done. I’ve never liked PS much. I’m happy with ImageMagick and Gimp but whatever works to get people free of M$’s monopoly is fine by me. By now everyone knows M$ is excess baggage everywhere in IT. They just need an easy path to the exit. Here it is. With tablets expected to overtake notebooks sooner or later, Wintel should fade rapidly.

“Tablet PCs will be the fastest-growing category, with a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 35%, followed by smart phones at a CAGR of 18%. Shipments of other phones will decline; during 2013 smart phones will overtake feature phones for the first time. Notebook PCs will also experience a decline (a CAGR of -6%) as tablet PCs continue taking a greater share of consumer spending. Tablet shipments are expected to exceed those of notebooks in 2014. “
see Canalys – Mobile device market to reach 2.6 billion units by 2016

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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49 Responses to PhotoShop Ported to Linux, more or less

  1. ram says:

    A software release being delayed does not mean the a project is dead. Releases are often delayed, hardly a big deal.

    As to where CinePaint and GIMP are used, just look up the developers (published) and where they work (sometimes published) or used to work (usually published). Intersect with major motion picture credits. I rest my case.

  2. Der Balrog says:

    People, do you even read the sites you post!?

    Linux Movies has only generic Linux articles like “Installing FluxBB on Linux” — yes, Hollywood has waited for that a long time.

    Cinepaint — is dead! Despite a shiny new website it’s dead. There was a release planned for Januar. But you have undoubtedly noticed that January has come and gone.

    Hey, ram, how about this: tell us where and how GIMP is used at “major motion pictures house[s]”. Can’t answer this simple question, even though you have GIMP-using friends in the industry? Well, you gave the impression of being a little liar from the start.

  3. DrLoser says:

    Any independent cites, ram?

    Or are you just shit out of luck on this one?

  4. ram says:

    More about Linux, Blender, GIMP, and their derivatives in the movie industry:

    http://www.linuxmovies.org/

    http://www.cinepaint.org/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CinePaint

  5. DrLoser says:

    Dr Loser don’t have a good arguement so have to write stories.

    At least mine are funny, Hamster.

    Yours are just pitiful tedious fact-free phantasies.

  6. oiaohm says:

    –And about your “alien data”: it still makes no sense. You import superfluous data into Blender. Nonetheless, you attach it to some data structure in Blender. But you actually don’t do anything with it.–
    Export uses the data space. Third party addon can use the data space.

    Der Balrog blender is one of the few tools that can handle Alembic properly. Even so Alembic is another attempt to build an item like Verse.

    Alembic implementation in blender at moment is just an addon python script that exploits the alien data storage to store any extra information in Alembic.

    Yes trying to implement Verse, Alembic and even Cordex as plugin to most of the mainline 3d tools you have named results in a nightmare from hell. Basically have to maintain the information twice. Once in the program what it knows. Once in your own mirror data struct.

    I am expecting Alembic to fall in the heap the same way all the priors did. The priors hey we are closed source we will support this universal format and anything we cannot store we will just junk.

    http://code.google.com/p/alembic/ Yes it has blender support.

    –At the highest, most simplistic level, Alembic is “merely” a hierarchical sampled data storage format. It is intended to be used to store a baked representation of scene data, in the same vein as GTO or OBJ. It was designed to facilitate handoff of data between disciplines, vendors, and applications.–

    Notice 2 prior format exist for the same job. Failure both of the 2 prior formats fail the same reasons. Closed source products will have a habit of dropping stuff out a universal format they don’t understand.

    Alembic does include support for alien information.
    http://docs.alembic.io/python/examples.html#write-non-standard-data-for-a-polymesh
    At least they got that party right.

    Also look up the universe/verse format sometime. Der Balrog you will find that Alembic is reinventing wheel and is not the only one.

    http://graphicall.org/est77/

    Of course just to be fun.
    http://www.disneyanimation.com/technology/partio.html

    Lucasfilm and Sony Pictures Imageworks and other users using software like them do one thing. Alembic

    Disney rolls there own being partio that is used in the Maya line of tools. Yes houses using Maya use partio. Guess what talks both Blender.

    They are both open source and they are both incompatible with each other and doing the same thing.

    Der Balrog so yes blender translating from partio to Alembic and back has todo some nice storage transformation. At least blender can store all the data from partio and Alembic in one format.

    It would be great if you could take all the 3d software makers lock them in 1 building and get them to implement a common format and agree not to destroy each others data with some nasty punishment like death if they do.

    Universal thing about 3d once you think some group has decided on a transport format.
    Some random party out there will do the follow. Note different parties can do each 1.
    1) Implement another format doing the same thing incompatible. Yes the reinvent the wheel problem.
    2) Implement a broken implementation of the transport by dropping data they don’t understand. So any new additions to the format magically disappear at that point.
    3) Implement a broken implementation that converts the universal format like the common float to like a 64/128 bit int on load and the reverse on save for every value in the universal format because there engine only has storage for that format internally. Result is maths errors eating the data form Lunch some where in your workflow.
    4) Implement will get the magic idea a library will solve all these sins but then implements 2 defect in library and many program use it. Lacks design to say hey we have to add a new struct how without breaking backwards compatibility. Not all programs will be using the current version you can be sure of this. SDNA in blender is an insanely good idea. You want a future safe and past safe format the only way is really document what is stored inside in the file.
    5) Implement somewhere will extend format without approval if they cannot extend format they will place a wrapper around it making a new format.

    Der Balrog welcome to a industry that desperately needs a standard body with a huge stack of test cases. So people making crap tools can be balled out.

    Until that day we will keep on needing something like blender that export and import is writing in a scripting language and can be bent to fix up what ever stuff ups cross it path and it own internal file format can store anything.

    Yes I can add Alembic or partio without rebuilding blender and have them work right. What ever someone dreams up next as a transport format blender will be able to support without having to be a new version because it has that alien data storage.

    Blender project in the past tried doing a standards body. Lot of movie houses support the idea. Problem is closed source software did not.

    Der Balrog there is at least 1 improvement from the last time. At least the formats are openly documented and not dependant on some magic closed source binary. Of course I am wrong on this there are a few other implementations like the Adobe one that depend on a closed source library to access the universal format for transferring between rendering engines.

  7. Der Balrog says:

    And about your “alien data”: it still makes no sense. You import superfluous data into Blender. Data which Blender doesn’t need. Nonetheless, you attach it to some data structure in Blender. But you actually don’t do anything with it. Now you claim that at export time you can just write out this superfluous data to the export file. Why would you want to do that? There is not a single real-world use case for that.

    Do you know Alembic? Let me quote from their website:

    Alembic…

    …Is a data representation scheme for storing computer graphics scenes
    …Distills the results of artist disciplines for handoff to other artists in other disciplines
    …Is focused on the greatest common divisor between applications, the ‘periodic table of cg primitives’
    …Is extensible to support new workflows and new tools

    So they fully well know that a meaningful interchange format can’t concern itself with application-specific data. But you want to tell us that importing superfluous data into Blender makes sense. Again, how so?

  8. Der Balrog says:

    DrLoser and Der Balrog I am going to have to be blunt.

    Please, don’t hold back.

    Chris Huf who makes and maintains http://www.lwplugindb.com/plugin/blender-liquid-import/ is from Pixar. Chris Huf is one of Pixar coders.

    I don’t think so. (Proof, please?)

    Yes Pixar uses Blender we know. We also know how as an addon to lightwave.

    No, we don’t know. (Proof, please?)

    Just because Colin has gone to Pixar does not mean he stopped using blender.

    And that nobody claimed, that he has stopped using it personally. Does he use it at Pixar? I somehow doubt that they have integrated it in their pipeline for him. But perhaps he will tell something about that once his internship is over. Or not (those pesky NDAs).

    Sorry major role at Pixar blender is most likely no. Minor roles like good fluids is yes.

    Ah, wrong again: Simulating Whitewater Rapids in Ratatouille. Quote:

    Because of the roughness of the water surface and its violent motion, most shots required a foamy white water surface, with flying spray and floating clouds of mist. These effects were generated by fluid and particle simulations in Maya, driven by the results of the water surface simulations. Custom plugins and mel code were added to Maya to efficiently access the huge splasht particle sets and water surface meshes.

    But I’ll give you that: Blender’s fluid simulation system is on principle rather good, as it was written by someone who has a clue and is in the industry by now.

    Anyone who has checked out what lightwave plugin exist and who makes them knows Pixar is using blender. Just in minor roles.

    Proof, please?

  9. oiaohm says:

    God every time I want to type lightwave I am typing lightworks.

  10. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser and Der Balrog I am going to have to be blunt.

    Chris Huf who makes and maintains http://www.lwplugindb.com/plugin/blender-liquid-import/ is from Pixar. Chris Huf is one of Pixar coders. Yes Pixar uses Blender we know. We also know how as an addon to lightwave.

    Just because Colin has gone to Pixar does not mean he stopped using blender.

    Sorry major role at Pixar blender is most likely no. Minor roles like good fluids is yes.

    Anyone who has checked out what lightwave plugin exist and who makes them knows Pixar is using blender. Just in minor roles.

    Dr Loser. You can do it in maya by import and export without editing many formats. Ie import save as maya close open file export back to same non native format. The model is not identical. It has been damaged. If that happens a few times in a work flow you can get quite a bit of drift.

    Why is it a disaster. A final render might take days to complete DrLoser this is quite a investment in cost if that fails part way through due to a file not being openable due to program incompatibles. Or model being damaged. Not all sections of the movie will be done with the same rendering engine.

    The disaster can result in the movie being out of budget so never sees the light of day.

    Basically Dr Loser you are trying to stick head in sand. Maya and lightwave and most other 3d tools can be quite problematic when you are using external renderers that don’t use there native format.

    Blender due to having such a crap internal renderer for a long time. Has all the stuff in place to use external renders properly with the least destruction.

    Like blender imports something from maya or lightwave if the render engine blender is passing to has the same struct at lightwave or maya but different to blenders you can pass straight threw. If you do a translation the blender file can keep a record of what was changed.

    Alien data does not help you when you are in disaster. Alien data prevent you from getting into the disaster in the first place of doing too many transforms. You want a max of 1 transform of data values from modeling program to renderer to keep math errors to a min. You don’t want to do anything that cause any more transformation to be done.

    Loading and saving from non native formates in maya and lightworks is problematic.

    Dr Loser don’t have a good arguement so have to write stories.

  11. DrLoser says:

    Der Balrog you are not alone with your logic. Makers of commercial 3d tools suffer from the same logic. This is where the import/export disasters with them start.

    And the next inanity I am going to ask you to justify.

    “Makers of commercial 3d tools” are apparently commercially viable.

    I’m not entirely sure that you are respitorially viable.

    Wherefrom come these “disasters” of which you prate?

    Nicole Kidman, in Revenge of the 3-D Tools: Shucks, Honey, we have a full-blown import-export disaster on our hands! And only thirty minutes to mitigate that disaster before the end of the movie!!!

    Tom Cruise: No problem, I’ll just fall off this tall building.

    … No, wait, that didn’t work. I know, I’ll use Blender!

    … No, wait, that didn’t work either. Honey, I’m afraid we’re just going to have to live with a full-blown disaster.

    But at least we both have Alien Data.

    Sigourney Weaver: You bastards! You’re stealing my child!

    Brent Spiner: Alien Data is my child, bitch!

    Note that I haven’t even mentioned Richard Gere yet, Hamster.

    But nevertheless, you know where you can stuff yourself.

  12. DrLoser says:

    Your arguments about Colin Levy are basically bogus and you did not take notice carefully. Der Balrog.

    I’m going to pick you off, one sentence at a time, Hamster. You write massive chunks of granite gibberish, so it’s the only way, I’m afraid.

    Der Balrog did not “argue” about Colin Levy. Neither did I.

    Colin Levy was quoted at us, and we both replied with the obvious:

    That means that he has to work with standard industry tools and Pixar’s own tools now, not that Blender is used at Pixar.

    Explain how that is bogus, you nincompoop. Explain where we are not “taking notice carefully,” you fool.

    And this time, do it in less than a thousand words of disconnected gibberish … wait, what am I asking for … just do it, Hamster. Even if you need to link to irrelevant bits of Wikipedia.

    You’re the most thorough-going intellectual fraud I have ever come across, but do it anyway.

  13. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser I had already Named a small house. http://www.blendernation.com/2012/06/21/ovnivfx-demoreel-2012/

    Der Balrog lightwave did not not notice this one.
    http://www.lwplugindb.com/plugin/blender-liquid-import/

    If you check out lightwave it has lots and lots of blender import plugins. Der Balrog Lightwave sux at particular animation things. So yes Colin Levy still uses blender. But it a case that Lightwave and blender work with each other.

    Your arguments about Colin Levy are basically bogus and you did not take notice carefully. Der Balrog.

    Lightwave + Blender is better than Blender or Lightwave alone.

    Der Balrog your case 2 you almost got it.
    The file format of the file you want to import contains data which is specific to the software package which uses said file format natively. But this data is actually not necessary for using whatever’s contained in the file in Blender. And Blender’s internal data structures have no place for this superfluous data. So why would you want to import superfluous data?
    Then you took left turn.
    What is then the point of “alien data” when importing foreign file formats? There is none.
    Programs don’t just import they export as well.

    This is what you are getting wrong. Importing is half the problem. Exporting is the other problem.

    You want to use external renderer. This can contain settings blender does not have. Most external renders to blender contain options blender does not have. Some renderers even use a different way of storing X,Y,Z system to blender. Some you want to store that the external render applies X effect.

    One example of external render is blender export to aftereffects you can place information about every effect aftereffects is going todo in blender. Export will see them done. Result is looking at the blender file everything blender is exporting out to settings are present. So its not like other workflows. Like you don’t have to start aftereffects when in blender to find out what is planned to be done.

    You have imported something you have to translate like from integer 3d coordinates to float 3d coordinates and back. Every time you do this you add an mirror error. Its like jpeg compression this is destructive. You want non destructive opening and saving right. So you require somewhere to save data you had to translate so blender can display it. So when you export that translate can be undone. Resulting in less damage to models.

    The idea that superfluous data does not have a place in 3d formats causes some fun issues. Just because the data is superfluous to the blender engine. It does not mean that data is superfluous to where blender is exporting to. Blender is only 1 program of many from a production line.

    The lack of superfluous data storage is why you see such a degrade transferring stuff between commercial 3d tools. Think this way if each tool keeps on deleting want it don’t know the result is it delete deleting something another program needs to work. If you have two tools you can nicely end up with files that open in 1 or the other only. Now if half you movie opens in 1 and half your movie opens in other. You are kinda screwed if you cannot repair this.

    Maya and Lightwave are classic for doing this to each other. It is a reason why a movie will be made by one or the other in most cases.

    Der Balrog Superfluous data/alien data. Makes production workflow simpler and safer. Its like the old saying you cannot have too many backups. If you have a import translation error for some reason in blender its fairly simple to see. Since what it started from is recorded.

    Forms of usage of it
    1)The extra data is a form of backup in case of any translation error. Like something might be a whisker out because something rounded up instead of down. Bit hard to see if the data is not there to confirm it. Importers are not perfect we know this.
    2)Means to stored extenal application settings so you don’t need to open up like 10 to 20 programs to find out what is planned.
    3) Stabilisation of import/export. Yes when you will be performing both. You don’t want import performing 1 translation and export performing another translation just because you opened changed 1 thing and exported this can result in model damage. Export can look at the prior value if that value in ID_Property the same as what the importer produced use the value the import saw in export. You only want to change what you really changed. Its a little hard to pull that out without storing extra data.
    4) Export control. Its also possible for the user of blender to assign ID_Property so exporter will round the direction they want. Now remember a model might be going to many different rendering engines or programs outside blender. Edit model producing another copy of that model to fix bug for 1 export source is not exactly that sane.

    Der Balrog the ID_Property stuff is highly useful. So was hacking the SDNA before it. Its a little hard todo non destructive editing on formats that are imported from external format and then exported back to that format properly without storing extra data that is Superfluous to everything other than import and export.

    Der Balrog you are not alone with your logic. Makers of commercial 3d tools suffer from the same logic. This is where the import/export disasters with them start.

  14. Der Balrog says:

    http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Source/Data_System/ID_Property

    That’s nice. But now you’ve got to explain why the hell this is meaningful in the context of this discussion? You were talking about file format conversion, remember?

    So, okay, you’ve now got the ability to save “alien data” when importing a file in a non-native format. Why would you need it?

    Case 1:

    Blender’s importer for file format X is not able to interpret a file in said format completely. We can skip any further theoretizing and come to the point right here: the concept of “alien data” is complete bull in this context. If the importer is lacking the complete description of the file format then you’re simply unable to tell what’s “alien data” in the file you want to import.

    Case 2:

    The file format of the file you want to import contains data which is specific to the software package which uses said file format natively. But this data is actually not necessary for using whatever’s contained in the file in Blender. And Blender’s internal data structures have no place for this superfluous data. So why would you want to import superfluous data?

    What is then the point of “alien data” when importing foreign file formats? There is none.

    Let me help you by means of an analogy. You’re writing a paper titled “A Comparison of the Teleological Arguments of Descartes and Spinoza”. Suppose you were to include in your paper a section on what Heinrich Heine wrote about Descartes and Spinoza in his essay On the History of Religion and Philosophy in Germany. Alien Data. Interesting? Probably. Superfluous? Absolutely.

  15. Der Balrog says:

    see Colin Levy Joins Pixar

    That means that he has to work with standard industry tools and Pixar’s own tools now, not that Blender is used at Pixar.

    It was used in Spiderman-2 (non-PIXAR) by a guy who has done work for Disney see Use in the media industry

    This story never dies. Yes, he used it for animatics for Spider-Man 2, then he switched to Lightwave because everyone else in his department was using it.

    Also PIXAR uses all kinds of software in-house, not just their own developments, so Blender is likely in there considering that hundreds of thousands of aspiring animators use it.

    And you know that how? What is known about Pixar is that they’re using the custom-developed Marionette for animation and Renderman for rendering. They also use Houdini for procedural effects animation. They used 3DS Max at least for one film. They likely use Maya in some capacity, because everyone uses Maya.

    Pixar — like every other big animation studio/VFX house — will use whatever tools necessary to get the job done. And herein lies the problem: what does Blender better than all those proprietary and custom-developed software packages? Nothing! When you’re Pixar, ILM etc. you don’t need to use Blender.

    And there’s one major thing you always overlook: the Blender Foundation’s mission isn’t to “sell” Blender to VFX houses.

    And therefore the question needs to be asked why you are so hellbent on proving that Blender is used at Pixar etc.? My guess: an inferiority complex on the part of FLOSS. You have no commercial motives, but you’re just like everyone else. You want your precious software to be used and praised, because FLOSS must be better in your minds (even if it is not).

  16. DrLoser says:

    BTW, Hamster, have you ever written anything in Python?

    What with it being a computer language and all, it takes actual skill to get it right.

    Robert might be able to manage it. But you are obviously deficient.

  17. DrLoser says:

    I spoke too soon.

    Yes adding new structs to the SDNA blender version you are using does not know and still being able to access it. Reason librna for python that makes everything in the resulting SDNA of the file merged with the SDNA reference blender has. So yes create a SDNA with a struct not known to blender place it in a blank blend file load with blender get a new SDNA that is your new SDNA + that version blender SDNA merged into a new SDNA description you can work with.

    That is the single stupidest paragraph you have ever written, Hamster. And your various theses on B-Trees and the JVN and audio latency and MAC take some beating, let me tell you. By the way, how’s that redefining the Posix file interface to use URL encoding going?

    Programming does not involve magic pixie dust. Get this through your thick, yet RF-receptive, head.

    If a given application does not understand the input data, then the only thing it can do (and why Blender should wish to do this is another question) is to pass it on.

    All your other wild theories about what happens in between are just, I am afraid, the consequence of embarrassing uninformed amateurish ignorance.

    Now, having said that: can we please have a single instance quoted of a “major Hollywood studio” (or even a mainstream VFX house) that uses Blender in their pipeline?

    Not too much to ask if you want to prove a point.

  18. DrLoser says:

    There are smaller houses that use nothing but blender. So its not disaster bad.

    Are there any, Hamster? Name one. I know proof is difficult for you, but really, in this case, it would be very, very, simple.

    Name one.

    And once we’re past that minor hurdle of presenting facts, let’s consider your idiot proposition on its own merits.

    No, using Blender would not be “disaster bad.” It wouldn’t even be “purple monkey dishwasher bad.”

    But it would be suboptimal and it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face (ie not spending a couple of thousand on the industry standard stuff) and it would put the talented professionals (I assume you theoretically want to attract talented professionals) in the field from working in your two-man, one-dog POC company.

    It doesn’t have to be a disaster. But only somebody with their head in the clouds would dispute that it is bad.

    But let’s assume we can live with bad. We can live with bad if there’s an upside here.

    Where, precisely, would one begin looking for the upside?

    Clue: pink unicorns and the Four Freedoms don’t mean diddly-squat when you’re running a commercial enterprise.

  19. Der Balrog wrote, “show us finally evidence that Blender is used to any substantial degree at “major motion picture house[s]“”

    see Colin Levy Joins Pixar

    It was used in Spiderman-2 (non-PIXAR) by a guy who has done work for Disney see Use in the media industry

    Also PIXAR uses all kinds of software in-house, not just their own developments, so Blender is likely in there considering that hundreds of thousands of aspiring animators use it.

    PIXAR does not even require expertise in their own stuff…
    “Qualifications

    • Degree or certificate in classical animation, film, or related field, or equivalent production animation experience
    • Must have a demo reel that demonstrates application of the principles of animation to tell a story with meaning through movement
    • Ability to work collaboratively
    • Must be open to direction and able to embrace change
    • Proven storytelling skills
    • Ability to use acting skills, which bring characters to life, as well as clearly communicate simple ideas with which an audience can empathize
    • Strong understanding of traditional animation principles
    • An art background, which shows a thorough, understanding of physical motion, weight, balance, texture, and form
    • Computer animation experience preferred but not required

  20. oiaohm says:

    Blender SDNA 2.48 is too old. 2.50 adds support for using alien SDNA. Yes adding new structs to the SDNA blender version you are using does not know and still being able to access it. Reason librna for python that makes everything in the resulting SDNA of the file merged with the SDNA reference blender has. So yes create a SDNA with a struct not known to blender place it in a blank blend file load with blender get a new SDNA that is your new SDNA + that version blender SDNA merged into a new SDNA description you can work with.

    Blender 2.50+ is also using a library called libdna and librna. Yes its not a direct memory map dumped to disk in 2.50+.

    Librna is important it uses the current working SDNA to allow you to access the complete struct from python.

    Of course as 2.50-2.60 developed it was very quickly worked out alien SDNA done this way has some nasty downsides. Particularly the fact you could not add new ones to an already existing file without having a custom tool to hack the SDNA.

    Yes 2.50+ alien SDNA style is not recommend. Yes it will work with current versions of blender just like it did with 2.50 blender.

    2.60 adds are more sane addition to make structs to store alien data blender does not process.
    http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Source/Data_System/ID_Property

    ID_Property on the fly you can define a new struct. Far more flexable. But it still storing alien information to blender that blender engine itself is never going to understand. In fact blender engine does not read anything in ID_Property. Only importers and exporter scripts are going to be messing with what is stored in it.

    Importer scripts and exporter scripts added to blender 2.60+ are free to store any data they don’t trust to convert properly many times in the ID_Property storage method. This can even be binary blobs.

    Yes two options. One is recommended. Notice ID_Property IDPropertyTemplate part where you create a group then tell blender what will be stored in that group.

    ID_Property is basically done SDNA without having to place the information in the SDNA.

    Yes the existence of IDPropertyTemplate does bring one ugly fact. Not all the structs inside a blend file are defined in the SDNA anymore. The custom struts are define in IDPropertyTemplate items.

    Alien modification to the SDNA does have advantage at times due to being simpler to alter the SDNA to store binary blob parts.

  21. Der Balrog says:

    What is it with you going off on a tangent which has nothing to do with what was previously discussed?

    Ovni VFX is not a “major motion picture house”. It’s a boutique VFX shop serving the advertising market, and that’s also how they describe themselves.

    The burden of proof is on you. Please show us finally evidence that Blender is used to any substantial degree at “major motion picture house[s]”.

    Also, it would be really nice of you to address my objections regarding your use of alien data in Blender.

  22. DrLoser says:

    Boss of Third World VFX House: Ah, I see you have Blender on your resume. Excellent!

    Animator: Actually it’s a mipsrint. It ahould raed “Python.”

    Boss of Third World VFX House: But the job advert spefically states that you must have Blender. Furthermore you must understand Alien.

    Animator: I udnersand Alien. I spork Alien. Menny of my beast freinds are Alien. Besides:

    Also due to blender python engine it simple to do translation.

    Boss of Third World VFX House: Do you have any idea how stupid that statement makes you look?

    The door is that way, Hamster. Don’t try to translate it into a teleport on your way out.

  23. oiaohm says:

    http://www.blendernation.com/2012/06/21/ovnivfx-demoreel-2012/
    “major motion picture house” define.

    http://www.lwplugindb.com/plugin/blender-liquid-import/
    Items like Lightwave do have issues Der Balrog. Liquids break most 3d tools and they have to reach out to external solutions. You can fairly much better any CG movie you see with good looking liquid flowing over stuff its blender or realflow doing the water maths. Now you want a fluid to burn off and disappear correctly. Only one tool can do that blender. Yes you do see companies claiming Lightwave usage showing this effect. Lightwave cannot do it.

    Der Balrog there are areas where blender plugs in to the VFX work flows. Problem is the tool that does the rendering normally gets the credits. So since Lightwave processed the final models it gets the credit even if blender was used in the generation of those models of liquid flowing. Same applies to 3d Max and Maya.

    http://vimeo.com/29819231
    Yes Lightwave and Maya want todo good fluids don’t have realflow reach over to Blender do the fluid and export back to Lightwave and Maya.

    The sad part is Lightwave and Maya fluids has nice maths errors. Blender can do smoke and fluid very well. Maya can do a passable fluid it self. Lightwave cannot do smoke from fluids well.

    Yes claiming Blender is not doing full length work at studios would be correct for a lot of studios. Reality is a lot of studies are using blender because it does something better than there tools can do alone. Yes Maya and Lightwave used with blender not just for conversion but because blender is better at a few things.

    Gimp I know of zero specialist reason to be using it over any other image editor. Blender does have some specialist areas it beats the rest.

    Der Balrog Most CG movies use more than 1 rendering engine and more than one program for doing the physics. Kinda have to. Every program out there for CG suxs somewhere and is good somewhere. The trick is managing to jigsaw it so the sux stuff never sees the screen.

    Der Balrog do you see blender interface appear in making of from time to time. Blender is a item that does miss out on credits a lot. Part because its not yet doing large enough section of work-flow. Part because there are no software discounts for having it in credits.

    There are smaller houses that use nothing but blender. So its not disaster bad.

  24. Der Balrog says:

    Oh my! Peter droning on and on about things he has dreamt while out in the bush.

    Blender can store alien information in it file format. So you can tag this data in this file is only for X export. Also due to blender python engine it simple to do translation.

    A Blender file is merely a dump of its internal memory tree structure. So there can be per definitionem nothing alien in there, especially since every Blender file is self-descriptive due to the embedded SDNA which describes in completion the data blocks used in the file.

    If you take a look at any single Blender importer, then you will undoubtedly immediately see that a Blender importer merely does what its name says: it recreates the contents of a foreign file format in terms of Blender’s own internal data structures.

    What then is in this context alien data? It can only designate data which the importer doesn’t understand. But if the importer doesn’t understand it why would you want to import it in the first place? More to the point: in which SDNA structure do you save this alien data? Is there actually an Alien SDNA? Well, I sure don’t see one in the semi-official documentation of Blender’s SDNA. Perhaps you can point us to the current source code where this Alien SDNA is described.

  25. Der Balrog says:

    I said GIMP is used by every major motion picture house. So is Blender. Those are not their only tools. They all have proprietary tools that they have mostly developed in-house.

    Irrelevant with a capital “i”. Where is your proof? Can you just stop claiming things? I repeatedly asked you where GIMP is used in a VFX pipeline. You claim to have friends in the industry, so you should be able to answer that. Likewise for Blender.

    Can you do that? Or is GIMP merely installed on the receptionist’s computer at “every major motion picture house”?

    However, Open Source or proprietary, they almost exclusively use Linux. Certainly every singe box my company has supplied to that industry has been a Linux box.

    It wasn’t denied anywhere here that VFX houses use Linux. So why are you repeating it ad nauseam? That’s right, because you fail to come up with even one “major motion picture house” which uses GIMP and/or Blender in its pipeline.

  26. ram says:

    For some of you guys, denial (De Nile) is not just a river in Egypt!

    I said GIMP is used by every major motion picture house. So is Blender. Those are not their only tools. They all have proprietary tools that they have mostly developed in-house.

    However, Open Source or proprietary, they almost exclusively use Linux. Certainly every singe box my company has supplied to that industry has been a Linux box.

  27. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser pass-through on some data is exactly what you want. Transformation on some data is exactly what you want as well. Transformation of all the data or pass-through of all of the data is exactly what you don’t want in most cases. Since this normally results in bad things. Like objects changing color/shape as it passing down the VFX line when there was no reason for it to change.

    Item like blender were the importers and exporters are script for everything other than the .blend file. Allows you to take exact control over what data is pass through and what is transformed. So you don’t have things being transformed that you don’t wish transformed.

    DrLoser its the same reason why you don’t jpg compress repeatedly. You don’t change colour space repeatedly. You don’t change vector information repeatedly either. yYou only want to change these if you are really applying transformation not just because you are format converting.

    Think of it this way. You want to do some model shape alterations. Does this mean you should change the colour descriptions of the lighting? Answers is no. This is were blender is good. Selective transformation and selective pass through. Why it conversion tool of choice a lot.

    Blender on the fly can add new GUI display elements from scripts to allow alien data to be displayed that the blender engine is not using.

    Dr Loser yes the important question is alien to what.

    Dr Loser alien data is alien to blender core engine. Its not alien data to importer or exporter scripts.

    The alien data is not storing pointless unusable metadata. Alien data is usable. This is why its not metadata.

  28. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser

    –If Blender actually makes use of this metadata, then bully for Blender. If it’s just a pass-through, then one has to question the value of Blender in the first place.–
    The answer is yes and no. The python scripting in blender can read any data stored in the dna structs.

    –I spent a week putting a complicated transition into the VFX pipeline. It didn’t come out the other end. What the hell happened to it?–

    This problem is where blender comes in. Inside blender file it can store what blender engine itself uses. What came in on the import and what went out on the export.

    The point is its alien data. That extra data blenders own engines don’t use. Blender Exporters and importers have generated it into blenders DNA format.

    Its debuging best friend.

    Please note metadata does not describe it.

    I used alien information for a reason Dr Loser. It could be metadata but it also can be like colour from this was X before being placed in blender.

    Lets say something has a way different colour space to blender. So it translated to blender colour space so it can be displayed by blender. Yet in the alien information the imported source colour information remains. You can have exporter look up that colour information so avoiding translation errors.

    Result going threw blender to get to many different rendering engines can be 1 color and location information conversion step.

    Do the same thing with Maya you are looking at 2. 1 from a non native source format. 1 to export format. Reason Maya only stores the information in native to its internal engine. Blender is different due to its openness to store extra information in the blend files. Not as meta data. The alien data is functional data. Scripts in blender are free to react to it if that is wished.

    So yes Dr Loser blender does take advantage to being able to store alien information.

    Yes the blender core engine does not understand what the alien data is. The scripting engine on the other hand of blender can process it it. All exporters in blender are written in it.

    This is the advantage of blender. Sections of the data can pass straight threw blender without out alterations.

    So Animator goes down the road does not use blender uses like 4 different items and ends up with a red hat on a guy char being girly pink because the colour transformations of moving between different tool have eaten the chars colour for lunch.

  29. DrLoser says:

    Blender can store alien information in it file format.

    Well, it can’t very well make use of it, can it?

    I mean, it’s alien.

    “Alien”, Hamster, is what those of us who are actually professional workers in the IT sphere, rather than bloviating roving ranch-hands like yourself, would describe more accurately as “metadata.”

    If Blender actually makes use of this metadata, then bully for Blender. If it’s just a pass-through, then one has to question the value of Blender in the first place.

    Animator: I spent a week putting a complicated transition into the VFX pipeline. It didn’t come out the other end. What the hell happened to it?

    Incompetent boss: You did remember to save it as “Alien,” didn’t you?

    Animator: Well, of course. Do you think I’m stupid? It’s the only option that Blender gives me. Now, how come it didn’t get to the next stage of the pipeline?

    Incompetent boss: Because you told Blender that it was “Alien,” of course. Don’t you understand simple English? “Alien” means that Blender doesn’t have a clue what it means, or what to do with it. But, just in case, Blender saves it anyway.

    Animator: Yes, well, I understand all … wait a minute, there’s a job going down the road that doesn’t involve Blender, doesn’t muck around storing pointless unusable metadata, and furthermore they just won an Academy Award.

    See ya!

  30. oiaohm says:

    It is the reality. If you go back ffmpeg going back a 6 years most of them did not use them.

    Physic engines have merged to improve odds of successful conversion. Format support is an issue.

    Maya don’t open lightwave fileformats very well and lightwave don’t open Maya fileformats very well. So even that they should be able to render each others work quite well it basically fails in a heap.

    So Maya to blender so it become a .blend file. And lightwave to .blend file everything ends up very good since you can now do a .blend data merge.

    The trick is a key difference in blender. http://www.blender.org/development/architecture/blender-file-format/

    Blender can store alien information in it file format. So you can tag this data in this file is only for X export. Also due to blender python engine it simple to do translation.

    Der Balrog basically there is a few things blender is really good at. Twisting from one source to another quickly is something it really good at. Like if you want to go out to Luxrender or Indigo Renderer for some reason. Ok you might look at Indigo then you notice no lightwave support. It has maya ok that is good. Until you do the same workflow in modern blender and notice all the Indigo controls appear inside blender where they don’t in maya. Worse is Indigo don’t have scripting. So maya workflow is a bitch with Indigo. Do work in maya export to Indigo fix up in Indigo manually then render and hope you don’t screw it up.

    Or Maya to blender where you can run a python script to apply the Indigo alterations then to Indigo. Safer work flow. Lightwave there is no direct path to a lot of commercial rendering engines.

    Sorry I typed lightworks instead of lightwave. Had lightworks on mind because I had done some integration mucking around recently.

    Der Balrog blender is mostly called the freelancers tool because if you produce something in blender it might not be perfect but you can export it to what the customer wants. Then use other tools on top of that that the customer owns.

    There is a job for something that is a bridging tool.

    ffmpeg ,bullet, python and the list goes on of where commercial solo parts are disapearing out the commercial tools. Like having a unique scripting language does not really help workflow that much. Having a unique format converters also don’t help that much.

    Open Source is replacing from the base up in the VFX stacks Der Balrog. You might say so what if Nuke uses ffmpeg. Did it always the answer is no it did not.

    –Lightwave and Maya and Nuke are still proprietary tools–

    True to one point. As they use more Open Source backend parts integration gets simpler.

    You have to remember there was other proprietary companies were providing the makers of Lightwave, Maya and Nuke with parts that are no more because they have lost to Open Source.

    Its like a iceberg the bit above the water does not tell the full story of what is going on Der Balrog.

    So groups of proprietary companies are gone and you have not even noticed it Der Balrog.

  31. Der Balrog says:

    Now if you have a Lightworks and Maya in the same project you have blender as the interlink.

    I’m sure you can back that statement up. Perhaps with links?

    http://baltazaar.wordpress.com/tag/blender-vs-lightwave/

    You link to a hobbyist’s website as “proof”. Desperate much?

    Of course you are not in the industry.

    I’m waiting for your IMDb credits, Peter.

    Lightwave and Maya no longer have there own physics engines. They now use Bullet engine that is open source.

    Pulling something random out of your behind again? My comments were not about physics engines. Oh, look, Nuke uses the FFmpeg libraries! Is there a point to your rambling? Lightwave and Maya and Nuke are still proprietary tools. So don’t make it sound like I’ve claimed that proprietary tools contain no (liberally licensed) open source code.

    Der Balrog the reality is the closed source in VFX stacks is disappearing piece by piece.

    No, that’s not the reality.

  32. DrLoser says:

    I think you mean “cold start” or “dead heat,” McRae. There is no such thing as a “dead start,” although it’s the sort of phrase that sounds curiously appropriate for Linux.

    No specifics as to where GIMP is used in the “major motion picture industry”, I see; just more hot air. It isn’t, is it?

    There’s no dispute as to whether VFX houses use Linux as an operating system (I would assume their predominant operating system by far): we’re not the sort of fanatics who ignore inconvenient facts.

    The only question is, would any reputable VFX house in the western world use one of the various tatty half-baked Linux editing packages in their pipeline? Judging by the defeaning silence on this question, I would assume not.

    Incidentally, in computing terms, twenty years is one heck of a long time for a “dead start.”

  33. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog problem here is Lightwave and Blender do get used with each other. Same with Blender and Maya.

    Now if you have a Lightworks and Maya in the same project you have blender as the interlink.

    In fact blender is mostly the 3d universal translator.

    http://baltazaar.wordpress.com/tag/blender-vs-lightwave/

    Of course you are not in the industry. Lightwave and Maya no longer have there own physics engines. They now use Bullet engine that is open source.

    Der Balrog the reality is the closed source in VFX stacks is disappearing piece by piece.

  34. kozmcrae says:

    You haven’t repudiated any of my statements Trollrog. You just detailed where proprietary software is a part of the process. That’s exactly what I said you’d do. Take Linux and open source out of the process and it falls apart. The proprietary elements are secondary.

    The fact that we are even talking about it proves that the proprietary software industry has lost its grip on essential industries. Linux and open source has progressed far more beyond just a beach head. Linux and open source has come up from basically a dead start to be a major contender in some markets and the a leader in others.

    Proprietary software will always be a presence in the movie industry. There will be specialty software that only proprietary software houses will produce. But they will not be running the show. That will be the case for everything else. It’s not a boast, it’s the natural order. Once you take out the monopoly, that’s how it goes.

  35. Der Balrog says:

    Kotz, good to have you back. I didn’t “attack” Linux. I repudiated the claim that GIMP is used in the movie industry to any substantial degree. Refer to ram’s post #5. I asked him to provide proof since he claims to have friends in the industry. He didn’t come through.

    Perhaps you’re up to the task? (Remember: he who claims needs to deliver the proof.)

    The movie industry produce their wares on Linux and open source software.

    Linux? Yes. But most VFX houses use proprietary off-the-shelf software. And any custom extensions and/or scripts they write for said off-the-shelf software are proprietary. The days where ILM used a custom-written compositing software are gone. It’s just cheaper to buy commodity software.

    Any use of proprietary software is secondary in nature.

    Really? Then what will the VFX houses use without Maya, Nuke, Renderman etc.? Blender and POV-Ray?

    Remove Linux and open source from their work benches and the entire system will collapse.

    Not really. Because the cost advantage was never the primary factor for VFX houses to move towards Linux. And licensing costs are very much a negligible expense to a VFX house.

    Perhaps you’re now thinking of render farms. Hey, it’s Linux, so they’re like super-cheap. Well, it’s just that a Renderman license for one computer starts at $2000 and goes as low as $1000 if you buy in volumes.

    So that’s that. Saving on software? Hell, no.

    But perhaps you’ve been too much out of the loop to notice that there has been a veritable war going on between VFX houses for the longest time now, with the goal being to not go out of business. Which can be pretty hard if you have to chase subsidies and producers want to pay less and less for VFX work. Heard of Rhythm & Hues?

    But perhaps the Blenderheads could come to the rescue. They can work for free for Hollywood. Free work, free software. Seems like a good match.

  36. kozmcrae says:

    These attacks are typical of the anti-Linux trolls. They attack Linux and open source in detail. The constraints they need to add become tighter and tighter. Linux and open source is mainstream in the movie industry. Period. In order to find some kind of saving grace the proprietary trolls try to pick it apart by pointing out that there are particular applications in use.

    The movie industry produce their wares on Linux and open source software. Any use of proprietary software is secondary in nature. Remove Linux and open source from their work benches and the entire system will collapse. The trolls want their software to be as important as Linux and open source is, but in this case, it’s not.

  37. Der Balrog says:

    Give it a rest, Peter.

    I asked ram to provide information as to where GIMP is used in the “major motion picture industry” (his words, not mine). The “major motion picture industry” doesn’t post job ads on Blender boards.

    Remember — just as an aside — how it turned out for this guy who used Blender for Spider-Man 2 animatics? He moved on to Lightwave, to keep his job.

    I have never claimed and do not claim that you can’t make very nice things with Blender, GIMP, Inkscape etc. But I will claim that these packages are not used to any substantial degree in the “major motion picture industry”.

    If you want to enter the Industry you learn the standard tools. Because with these you will work. Do you expect a VFX shop to alter his pipeline because you prefer Blender etc.? You’ll be out the door in an instant.

  38. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog big thing about blender is you normally will not find job advertisements in normal job boards.

    http://blenderartists.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?52-Paid-Work

    Blender has it own decanted job boards that most blender people know their way to. Also these job boards keep a track history of how well each artist/coder/what ever has done.

    Maya and 3d Max don’t provide there own job boards like this. So yes they appear in general job boards.

    Der Balrog yes blender world is basically vertically integrated. In fact employing blender staff is way cheaper than most other due to most of the blender decanted job boards being free to register jobs also freely accepted to run competitions to test quality of work in like speed modelling and rendering.

    Decanted job boards for 3d modellers can really offer something to the employer to make sure the staff they get is skilled enough todo job.

    Der Balrog
    –Both decidedly *not* jobs where working with a Photoshop-like tool makes up the bulk of one’s work.–
    This is very correct there are a lot of jobs in VFX where using a Photoshop like tool is not important.

    Yes there is a good chance that jobs using gimp will not list it. Since they most likely will not care if you use gimp, krita, mypaint or basically any other image editor under Linux.

    Der Balrog from what I have seen VFX gimp fits into the camp of I can mask and produce a mask file that is good enough.

    Der Balrog yes you are not going to put on a job requirement on Windows MS Paint or better right.

    Lack of gimp appearing on VFX advertisements a lot tell you one thing. Its not in what they class as high skill usage tools. Not that they don’t use it for the crap roles that almost any image editor can fill.
    http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?282275-Malaysia-3D-Character-amp-Props-Modeling-amp-Animation

    Yes there are the odd jobs from Malaysia that turn up for blender.

    Der Balrog you could say that finding blender jobs takes knowing blender. If you know blender (ie want blender staff) You know were to place jobs.

    Since you don’t use blender Der Balrog you don’t know where to find blender jobs so don’t see any.

  39. Der Balrog says:

    Of course, GIMP is not the only Linux media program to be used by the major motion picture industry.

    Stop flailing, Hans. We didn’t need you for that insight that Linux is used in VFX.

    But I asked you a simple question. This question was not: “Is Linux used in the industry?” It was: “Where is GIMP used in the industry?” So stop with your anecdotal excuses and tell us where GIMP is used in a pipeline by the “major motion picture industry”. You supposedly have friends there, you should know.

    Just look at their job ads! That will list what they use. (Hint, Photoshop is not among them)

    That’s funny. Because on, for example, VFX Jobs there are exactly *two* ads with GIMP in it. Let’s see:

    Senior Layout TD @ MPC Vancouver:

    “Bonus Skills: An understanding of Gimp/Photoshop”

    Assistant 3D Pipeline and Tools Developer @ CBS Digital

    “Photoshop / GIMP – required”

    Both decidedly *not* jobs where working with a Photoshop-like tool makes up the bulk of one’s work.

    But let’s see what they’re looking for in, say, a Texture Artist @ Cinesite:

    “Excellent Maya, Photoshop and Mari skills”

    Ah, that’s too bad. Blender and Gimp are not on the menu, Hans.

    If you want GIMP and/or Blender, look towards VFX shops where there’s presumably not much cash going around:

    VFX Generalists, Compositors, 3D and 2D artists wanted (in Sunny Malaysia!)

    But even there, there seems to be a need for Photoshop, Maya, Nuke etc. (I wonder if their stuff’s pirated.)

  40. ram says:

    Of course, GIMP is not the only Linux media program to be used by the major motion picture industry. Just look at their job ads! That will list what they use. (Hint, Photoshop is not among them 😉

    Robert Pogson, you are right what you can do with even a modest cluster on Linux. You probably have more computing power than Weta Digital had when they did the first Lord of the Rings Movie, “The Fellowship of the Ring”. It was all done on Linux, of course:-)

  41. oiaohm wrote, “Imagemagick that is on the cluster would be doing the final images.”

    ImageMagick, SSH and Bash can do just about anything in imaging. Even I can do things with ~10K images with the hardware I have. In my home I have five hard drives and 14 cores available… 10K frames at 5s per frame per core is only a few minutes. Anyone can set up a gigabit network and a stack of servers for the price of an automobile these days.

  42. oiaohm says:

    http://wiki.gimp.org/index.php?title=Hacking:GSoC/2013/Ideas

    Der Balrog to be correct even 2.10 gimp does not play that well. You do see gimp used in model skinning. But there are issues with that. Ok integration between Photoshop and 3d tools also sux.

    Blender is really wanting gimp to get to the point of being able to share a opengl object with it.

    http://www.cinepaint.org/ cinepaint is not dead yet. But I would say it survival prospects are getting slim.

    Most of the VFX shops that don’t ask for Photoshop ask for Imagemagick or Graphicmagick experience and skill. If you check the job adds you will find that Der Balrog. Yes there are some fully open source VFX shops out there. But you also find some Linux platform ones what are mix of open and closed.

    silhouettefx and nuke by thefoundary. Yes they are closed yes the run on Linux. Due to Linux better memory management they complete faster on Linux than on Windows or OS X.

    When time is money Linux is winning on the VFX world a lot.

    Gimp might appear in the prototyping stages.

    There is a reason silhouette can do basic image alteration. With Imagemagick you can do most of the advanced batch processing of photoshop and spread the load over a cluster to complete the video quickly.

    There is a reason why I say Adobe need todo a server side of Photoshop. Because they are really starting to get ass handed to them in the VFX world.

    Think about it this way Der Balrog. 60 frames a second(that is a 3d movie so 30 frames left 30 frame right). 60×60 to give mins. 3600 Most movies are about 90 mins long. 324000 individual images to handle. Most likely quite a few times as directors don’t like X or Y or Z.

    Just to be really nasty to get the clearest result editing has to be done non destructively. So you remove something you have to reprocess from that point up again. Batch processing becomes heavily used for very straight in face reasons. Yes ok back to master alter X processing option and produce a new film section.

    Speed is important and Photoshop for sections of VFX work really don’t have it.

    2d editing and VFX work-flows are very different.

    Animation chars on the other hand. Have a 2d skin that you can spend ages on and hopefully only have to do a few times. This is really in the CGI camp not the VFX camp.

    Lot working in VFX do both CGI and VFX.

    Preping operation masks for Imagemagick you don’t need anything more advanced than gimp todo it.

    If ram did not look at the full thing they were doing he might have missed the final result were not being processed by gimp. Imagemagick batch processing with masks made in gimp is not completely strange. Yes high bit range not required for creating masks.

    Yes this would be a VFX thing. CGI skinning you see 2d editor output results (yes photoshop mostly at this stage).

    VFX with focus on Video streams is a different beast where the 2d editor is guiding the back end that is doing the lifting. Truly for this work you could almost get away with MS Paint to make the masks.

    Different sections in a VFX house will be using different tools VFX using gimp does not mean they think its good. It can be complete crap because it not producing the final images. Imagemagick that is on the cluster would be doing the final images.

  43. Der Balrog says:

    LOLWUT!?

    Potential buyers have either learned to use Wine or buy A Mac/Windows-PC.

    Your friends in the movie industry — by which you mean the VFX industry? — love it? That’s interesting. Because, you know …

    Seeing how GIMP will get official support for high bit-depths only with 2.10;

    seeing how Cinepaint is dead (BTW, Rhythm & Hues, where Cinepaint was used early on went bankrupt);

    seeing how in VFX job ads of today there is still demanded knowledge of Photoshop, not GIMP;

    seeing that no real VFX shop (the no-budget Blender-using ones aside), however small, has GIMP in its pipeline;

    seeing all that I’d say that the VFX industry didn’t get the memo that GIMP is now used instead of Photoshop.

    So, please, can we drop the anecdotes? I’d like to know which VFX shops (where your friends work at) have GIMP integrated into their pipeline. But I don’t expect you will provide answers.

  44. ram says:

    Potential buyers of Photoshop on Linux have long ago learned how to use GIMP and add in any extensions they needed. Personally, I much prefer GIMP. I note that it is also very popular with my friends in the movie industry (which almost exclusively uses Linux).

  45. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog. What you are saying the professionals at google don’t exist using Photoshop on Wine. Sorry they do exist. The difference is Linux better memory and process management compared to Windows and OS X.

    So running photoshop under wine using the feature that work increase odds of hitting dead lines because photoshop is finished sooner with the images.

    –So the overall user base won’t grow sufficiently by offering a Linux version. At best there’d be some switchers. Hardly a big enticement.–
    The switches would mostly be from Wine to Linux Native with Photoshop in it current form. This is because the run is that late.

    No reward is waiting not because the Users have Windows or OS X. Its because Linux users already have the Windows version of Photoshop. Only way to make new sales now is offer new feature.

    So the only way to port Photoshop to Linux and make a profit now. Is work out how to give some of the Linux advantages to OS X and Windows Users. This is make a server product.

    Der Balrog
    –But seeing that most Linux users are pretty comfortable with only using free software, I’d say that not even a 10% market share would suffice.–

    This shows the problem. You are so focused on Linux users you are failing to look at the problem like with big data. Even if someone is using Excel on Windows if they are processing big data it still processed on Linux boxes. Speed Linux has it.

    Yes provide Linux version make sure it include a server part so Windows and OS X users can offload complex and cpu consuming image alterations to the Linux box and go on and do other things.

    Yes there is a way for Photoshop on Linux to be viable. Yes it is targeting all current Photo-shop users.

    Big data can have like 1024+ core servers with Nvidia GPU’s for acceleration of processing. Problem is these are not desktops. These are mother huge servers. That adobe current does not provide anything in the Photoshop line to exploit. Yes there are a lot of Windows Desktop and OS X desktop users around those machines.

    Der Balrog I will give Linux Desktop targeting Photoshop is most likely no profit now. Mostly because the Linux Desktop users who want Photoshop bought the Windows version. Not because they own a copy of Windows or OS X.

    Due to being so late Adobe to be on Linux has to target the server options.

  46. Der Balrog says:

    In fact there is one fairly large known customer. Google. Google is the most common party to pay Codeweaver to fix up bugs in photoshop.

    And what’s the point behind this? That’s exactly what Adobe’s Chris Cox is talking about: the professionals who use Photoshop already own either a Mac or a PC with Windows, therefore they can use Photoshop. So the overall user base won’t grow sufficiently by offering a Linux version. At best there’d be some switchers. Hardly a big enticement. No great rewards are waiting. Even so, Adobe hasn’t ruled out porting Photoshop. It’s just that the Linux platform has to become commercially viable. But seeing that most Linux users are pretty comfortable with only using free software, I’d say that not even a 10% market share would suffice.

  47. oiaohm says:

    Der Balrog when will you learn todo homework.

    http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=17

    Photoshop in wine is up and down quality quality.

    http://appdb.winehq.org/help/?sTopic=maintainer_ratings

    Please note most photoshop versions best rating the achieve is silver. Works but something is broken status. So native port is not useless.

    In fact there is one fairly large known customer. Google. Google is the most common party to pay Codeweaver to fix up bugs in photoshop.

    –Adobe engineer Chris Cox puts it bluntly enough: Linux is not a viable market, which in the case of Photoshop means that a Linux port will not generate enough NEW revenue (meaning: NEW users buying Photoshop for Linux).–

    This is not exactly the issue. The problem adobe knows they have left release photoshop for Linux that late that most of the Linux base is using Photoshop in wine. So result of releasing Photoshop on Linux will be reduced Windows sales. They would have been new users to adobe if Adobe had release early enough.

    There are enough documented end users to pay for the port. Photoshop has been a great money spinner to code-weavers.

    Der Balrog so I am kinda torn. Wine project I work around a lot will lose a lot of income to the commercial side if Adobe does release Photoshop for Linux.

    Also remember Wine also runs on OS X. Adobe does not talk about cancelling the OS X version because the windows version works in wine.

    Der Balrog here is the shocking bit. Are you aware that photoshop under Wine for a large number of what photoshop does out benchmarks Windows running Photoshop.

    This is why anyone like Google needing a lot of photoshop batch processing ends up paying code-weavers to make it work.

    The difference is why today anyone processing large data normally uses Linux. Windows memory management and task management suxs.

    In fact if adobe does want a new Linux product that could possible bring in some new money for Linux and existing users. Just provide a Photoshop based batch processor.

    Der Balrog yes Chris Cox has missed an option.

  48. Der Balrog says:

    “More or less”? Yes, it’s the “less” part that speaks the truth!

    Not only are you late to the game (Photoshop Express for Android has been out for more than a year), no, in your brain a smartphone Photoshop suddenly becomes the real thing!

    Not only has one been able to run Photoshop on Linux via Wine for the longest time now, thereby making a native port useless, no, you’re also ignoring the most basic underlying fact:

    Porting the real Photoshop to Linux is the lesser of two issues. It’s a technical hurdle that can be overcome. The greater of two issues is: money! Over at Adobe’s own forums there is a thread in which Adobe engineer Chris Cox puts it bluntly enough: Linux is not a viable market, which in the case of Photoshop means that a Linux port will not generate enough NEW revenue (meaning: NEW users buying Photoshop for Linux).

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