Remember Vista-incapable? Here Comes “8”-incapable.

“Microsoft’s early marketing materials aren’t exactly highlighting that differences between Windows RT and Windows 8 — and as a result, there’s a high potential for unsuspecting consumers to end up burned when they buy a Windows RT tablet expecting the complete Windows experience.”

see Windows RT vs. Windows 8 Could Burn Consumers – Slashdot.

Chuckle. Some claim confusion by consumers may have killed off GNU/Linux on netbooks. What will “8” and “not 8” do for WARM? I certainly cannot tell them apart from the “notStarting Up” and the “notStart” screens. I think */Linux on ARM is safe for now. I wonder if x86 is safe from GNU/Linux though? Consumers who will buy a PC with rectangular regions of the screen with widgets may well prefer it. If I were a retailer, I would stock up on GNU/Linux PCs just in case consumers run away from “8”.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

42 Responses to Remember Vista-incapable? Here Comes “8”-incapable.

  1. Mongrol wrote, “Oiaohm, please just contact Google, and ask them what they call their mobile phone and tablet operating system.”

    Come on! You know you want it.

    “Fix for Google breaking change to x86 paths: “i686-android-linux” -> “i686-linux-android”.”

    see http://code.google.com/p/vs-android/

    That’s for NDK stuff. Fitting. Google wants to give Linux top billing.

    Check out this ad for developers:
    “Job Title: Android / Linux Driver Engineer / Android / Linux driver engineer departments: R & D work location: Shanghai, Beijing number: 10 people. Responsibilities: 1, transplant and test Android / Linux BSP drive …”

    Chuckle. In the real world, people speak their minds unlimited by the burdens of trolls.

  2. kozmcrae says:

    Mongrol wrote:

    “NO, IT’S NOT. There is no evidence of it being used by _anyone_ apart from neckbeards and basement-dwellers who are desperate for Linux to ride Android’s coat-tails.”

    You just made yourself irrelevant. Not even you believe that “neckbeard, basement dweller” nonsense. “Desperate for Linux to ride Android’s coat-tails.”? My my Mongrol. Don’t you mean Android’s ride on Linux? If Android didn’t ride on Linux you could remove Linux totally from Android and Android would ride off into the sunset happily ever after.

    CAPS, bold ,_emphasis_, boy Mongrol, you’re pulling all the stops on this one. You really can’t stand the idea that Linux has anything to do with Android’s massive success. But Linux is part of Android’s DNA and no matter what formating tricks you use, it won’t change that fact.

    You are a perfect candidate for Monty Python’s dead parrot routine Mongrol. Why don’t you go back to techbroil, you’ll get the support you need and you won’t need to bother with any HTML tags.

    In the end, it doesn’t really matter Mongrol. Linux is not based on name recognition. People don’t choose Android because it is based on Linux. In fact, Microsoft and their Cult followers have put so much effort into demeaning Linux by calling people who use it “neckbeards and basement dwellers”, that disassociating Linux from the Android brand name may have helped it in its early adoption.

  3. Mongrol says:

    “Mongrol conventions don’t go away no matter how much hand waving you do.”

    Oiaohm, please just contact Google, and ask them what they call their mobile phone and tablet operating system.

    “No matter what you say the formal name call Android/Linux is valid.”

    NO, IT’S NOT. There is no evidence of it being used by _anyone_ apart from neckbeards and basement-dwellers who are desperate for Linux to ride Android’s coat-tails.

    You can argue about formal names, conventions, and any other far-fetched reason you want.

    They do not apply here.

    The fact remains; it’s “Android”. Use of “Android/Linux” is invalid and disingenuous.

    Your lame attempts to prove I am wrong in other areas do not make you right in this one.

    “oldman ps just because I don’t use grammar as much as I should don’t not mean I don’t know it. Really where have you been that you have not ripped into Mongrol for poor English.”

    There are more than a few grammatical errors here alone. For someone who “knows it” you NEVER USE IT.

    Feel free to roll out one of your usual lame excuses for your mangling of the language. Or do what you often do, and make up a new one.

  4. oiaohm says:

    oldman ps just because I don’t use grammar as much as I should don’t not mean I don’t know it. Really where have you been that you have not ripped into Mongrol for poor English.

  5. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol basically you forgetting basics of how formal names are formed from given names.

    Lastname, First Second…
    First Second ….. Lastname
    Title at start just follows with a space.

    Title at end of name – or / or .

    Rank or Association “of” or / if it after name.

    These are all base rules of formal name construction. Yes they are a confused mess. When you are talking about non living it also comes under designation name.

    I would hate to have you writing Formal place cards for events Mongrol. You would not know the questions to ask so you get them right and don’t insult the guests.

  6. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol conventions don’t go away no matter how much hand waving you do.

    Mongrol the | pipe mark does appear in early china and Japan.

    –Its “Android”, not “Android/Linux”. No amount of hand-waving, tortured logic or frantic Googling will make this fact go away.–

    This is hand waving. Reality GNU/Linux Ubuntu/Linux Redhat/Linux all appear as well.

    Tokugawa Ieyasu|Edo bakufu or Tokugawa Ieyasu|Tokugawa Shogunate is how his full formal name appears in documents referring to meetings. Of course in Japanese chars in some of the old records. Mongrol really you are insulting you being a smart ass and write someone name wrong.

    In Japan it is mark of association. So by Japan convention Android/Linux is fine. Because Android is associated with Linux no matter how much you try to say otherwise. Mongrol.

    Mongrol this was particularly important information to know what Shogun group a person owned to. Particularly if you were planing meetings.

    Slash something appears when the convention moves to English style chars. China and Japan both used | issue is | and the letter l look a lot a like with poor hand writing. So it changed to the / or – we know today.

    Mongrol so yes the convention starts in Japan and China using the | and – chars(yes vertical writing). It evolves the | disappears replaced with / yet the – stays around.

    As I said this is in the class of Mr MISS MS -san -chan. Its not your given name but it can be a formal name used to address you.

    This is not Googling this is because I have done years doing english language history on conventions trying to repair my english. Theory was learn all the conventions would make my english better.

    Also the / does appear at time used with police and mil. Where given name is put before rank. John Doe/Sergeant. Just in case there is a real officer with the last name Sergeant.

    Mongrol the convention is still well and truly alive and in use.

    I was nice and avoid at first dropping the historic fact of the matter on you. No matter what you say the formal name call Android/Linux is valid. Android is the Given Name by Google.

    Mongrol learn that Given Name and Formal Names are different things. I have 1 set of given names. You have a stack of different formal names. Formal names have historic precedence that allows there existence.

    You are trying to say Formal names cannot exist when talking about OS’s. This is talking so much BS its not funny Mongrol.

  7. oldman bashed everything not Wintel with “Nor will the fact that it took a commercial company to make a. Success, not the vaunted community.

    Android is a commercial os serving a new market segment.”

    Last I checked GNU/Linux is a commercial OS serving every market segment and it has a thriving community. So, what’s oldman’s point?

  8. oldman says:

    Nor will the fact that it took a commercial company to make a. Success, not the vaunted community.

    Android is a commercial os serving a new market segment.

  9. Mongrol says:

    Lots of electrons, it seems.

    So far, we’ve had;

    Some kind of weird grass roots naming convention.
    User Agent Strings in a browser.
    Source tree folder names
    Kernel version naming
    A formal or ceremonial name.
    Naming conventions from ancient Japan and China.

    (You claim this “something SLASH something” convention and piping were used in names then? “Nurhaci/Manchu” or “Tokugawa|Ieyasu|Shogun”?)

    What’s next? Increasingly horrified minds wish to know.

    But here’s the thing;

    Its “Android”, not “Android/Linux”. No amount of hand-waving, tortured logic or frantic Googling will make this fact go away.

  10. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol the two order of OS designations come from the global culture differences over where you place the items like Mr and -san before or after.

    So the complete designation starts with how humans name each other altered to the computer world. Even the | appears used by some cultures before computers existed yes the | evolves into / in computer usage.

    So the base idea for why Android/Linux is valid is over 3000 years old. Early china/Japan.

  11. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol I have never said that Android the name is wrong.

    So you are not MR/MISS/MS Mongrol. That is a formal name I could use for you I could use the right one if I knew if you were male or female. Its not on your birth certificate you parents did you really call you that you did not choose that.

    OS designations is a form of formal name. Mongrol what the creator decided to call there OS must remain in some form in a designation/formal name.

    Android/Linux is a formal name. This is like Dainal -san from karate kid its another formal name. Or -chan for female.

    The /Linux falls into MR, MISS, MS, San, Chan and other cultures formal names. Global you have over 200 known formal name patterns for your name Mongrol. You parents basically gave you none of them.

    Google might be the parent. But parents have only a minor role in the creation of formal names. Formal names tell you extra things about the person. Like something that can be important like what sex they are.

    Mongrol what would you define as the sex/breed of a operating system. Yes what it OS kernel is.

    Its wishful thinking you own name is not black and white. Nothing in this world is black or white. Truly nothing.

  12. Mongrol says:

    How many more electrons will you waste trying to argue that black is white, and water is not wet?

    It is called “Android”.
    Google (its creator) call it “Android”.
    Its name is “Android”.

    No amount of word twisting, wishful thinking or crazed delusion will change this irrefutable, indisputable fact.

    And yet you still try. Are you somehow incapable of admitting you are wrong?

  13. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol the designation changed to reflect the changing conditions about compatibility between Linux kernel fork android did use to when they started using a mainline compatible kernel.

    Mongrol since you don’t watch designations you had no clue that the early day of incompatible kernel to Linux Mainline had ended.

    Mongrol designations tell you more about the OS than just the OS name. Windows 8/Windows NT Yes that is Windows 8 formal designation. Both in fact have version numbers. You normally don’t see the Windows NT version number printed on the box.

    Windows NT version number is the kernel version number. Windows 8 version number is the user-space version number.

    Yes windows developers do have a proper / designation name as well. Yes can be important when application that depends on driver is working on one machine and not another it can show a missing patch.

    Mongrol you don’t see like SP 1 on android device boxes. Hardware makers have to be able to represent when they have changed the kernel. This is where the /Linux comes in. Also using full designation with versions internally prevent problems.

  14. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol
    –To Windows developers, it’s Win32, DirectX, WPF, etc. Guess what name is on the box, though?–
    Here is your big bug.

    Mongrol the name on the device box of a android machine might be Android version number/Linux version number. Android/Linux might be printed on box does happen.

    So you are asking the exactly right question what appears on the box containing an android device. The answer is all of the following appear on the boxes.
    Android
    Android –version number–
    Android/Linux
    Android –version number –/Linux
    Android –version number –/Linux –version number–
    Then all the mirror forms as well. Yes pre using close to mainline Linux this was confusing
    Because you would see like Android –three digit version number–/Android –three digit version number– One three digit being a Linux kernel number and one being android version on some boxes. Yes good for confused end consumer. Particularly that there is no order number.

    Reason why that /Linux would appear on the box is if the Android in the machine is not the same Linux kernel as what shipped with that version of android. Sometimes newer sometimes older. This depends on hardware compatibility.

    The fact only party on your side. The reality is the Android/Linux slash form exists and is used. The order of it is not locked in.

    Its not because I have decided to call it that. There is a operational requirements for the / form to exist. Android 4.0 may not be sitting on 1 linux kernel version same with Android 4.1.

    https://android.googlesource.com/platform/prebuilts/gcc/darwin-x86/x86/i686-android-linux-4.4.3/

    Complier designation that is used by Google. Yes Android again is in the distribution/userspace location.

    https://android.googlesource.com/platform/prebuilts/gcc/linux-x86/x86/i686-linux-android-4.6/

    And sometimes google decide on reverse order as well.

    Mongrol so do you want him to write android-linux. Then find out that the reason why gcc uses – not / is not to conflict with file system.

    I have not said that the Name Android is not right.

    You are trying to say valid designations or full title names are not valid.

    Mongrol when getting a complier you need a designation.

    Lets put it this way I was so glad when the mainline Linux kernel got close enough that android was reduced to just a patch to mainline. Instead of being a item needing differently made drivers so unable to use the Linux designation and forced to use android as a designation on its kernel.

    Mongrol android designation has changed over time.

  15. Mongrol says:

    @Pogson

    “Sure, it is, but it is also called Android/Linux by me and many others. ”

    Who gives a toss what YOU call it? I care more about what GOOGLE calls it.

    No “Android/Linux” in that user string, and Linaro call it “Android” too. Don’t say they can be cherry-picked out and concatenated together like “GNU/Linux”. There’s no mention of GNU in user agent strings (not in Konqueror’s, anyway), so it wouldn’t be valid.

    And “Linux” is now “Linsux”. Because a lot of people call it that. Or “Ralph” because that’s what I’ve decided that it’s called. (This is satire as a counterpoint to your position on Android’s naming. You and Oiaohm need sarcasm and satire pointing out to you – the witless cannot discern wit, it seems.)

    @Oiaohm

    “Mongrol you can scream all you like.”

    Scream? No need, the fact is on my side. http://www.android.com not http://www.androidslashralph.com
    “Android” not “Android/Ralph”

    “User-agent strings of Android are Linux first distribution title second Android. Like every other Linux Distribution.”

    Google could change that whenever they want. Most users would probably change it to Windows and IE too, so you and Pog can explain away the 1% marketshare. (This is humour again.)

    And Android is still called “Android”

    “To hardware developers Android is Linux.”

    To Windows developers, it’s Win32, DirectX, WPF, etc. Guess what name is on the box, though?

    And Android is still called “Android”

    Why can’t you ever back down, even in the face of irrefutable facts? The name of the operating system should not be disputable – it’s “ANDROID”. You just carry on trying to find another far-fetched reason why you’re right. And you’re _still_ wrong.

    “This is backwards and you said a lie.”

    YOU call someone a liar??

  16. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol yes the basement dwellers comment is more right that you know.

    The classifications are more useful to Administrators and Hardware designers than general public.

    –My rebuttal still stands, though – it’s external or usersubmitted content, not Google copy.–

    Your rebuttal does not stand. The classification of android has change over time. From at the start being android/android to current day versions being android/linux.

    This classification change is important. Who does these classifications not google. Hardware makers. You don’t find chips label Android any more. They are Linux with Android and other distribution provided images.

    Basement dwellers is correct. They guys making the hardware you use these classifications are important. Due to this Mongrol the classification hardware makers use will always bleed up at times. You will see like –bla–/bsd for some routers as well. This designated custom user-space sitting on a bsd designed kernel.

    Mongrol so the used term is not incorrect. Motorola from time to time does use Android/Linux.

    http://schaumburg.olx.com/software-architect-android-linux-motorola-solutions-schaumburg-iid-304005311

    Mongrol remember Google owns Motorola and that is a Motorola job advertisement looking for someone to work on Android.

    Motorola uses the Android/Linux. Google parent does not. The difference one is a hardware maker one is not. So nothing wrong about Android/Linux being used.

    Mongrol so to the basement dwellers Android is always either Linux/Android or Android/Linux if it a current version of Android. Old android will have the title android/android

  17. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol you can scream all you like. User-agent strings of Android are Linux first distribution title second Android. Like every other Linux Distribution.

    To hardware developers Android is Linux.

    Mongrol
    –That Android is based on the Linux kernel (The Android version no longer compatible with the main Linux line now, I believe) is not what I dispute.–

    This is backwards and you said a lie. Mainline release kernel build from kernel.org will run android today you do have to enable some staging drivers to build so it fully works. Has for the last few versions.

    The android kernel started as a forked Linux kernel as time as gone on its being merged back mainline. Early versions of android runtime cannot be run on mainline Linux kernels. The Android 4.0.x series on can. Even the last in the Android 2.3 can.

    There was a time when the formal title name of android was android/android. That applies to android 1.0 and 1.1 basically all versions before the change over point in 2.3. So you see the formal title change when Android can use a mainline Linux kernel.

    Mongrol
    –I am disputing your (and others) erroneous use of “Android/Linux” as the operating system’s NAME.–

    Yes you are correct Android/Linux is not Android’s name. Android/Linux is Android designation or classification or name including formal title. The classification can get more complex. Android/Linux/Arm Android/Linux/x86 Are the to full classifications that exist.

    Its perfectly fine to use a classification.

    Yes Samsung calls Android a Linux Distribution.

    Mongrol yes the / bit is just like everyone does not address you with Mister/Doctor/… Name Because that is formal title. Linux/Android and Android/Linux are two formal titles for Android. Also Android Linux is another formal title.

    When using Android name in casual usage yes Android is correct.

    Microsoft troll people don’t want to have to deal with the formal title of Linux because they don’t want to have to accept the development on Android is fuelling mainline Linux kernel development.

  18. Mongrol wrote, “It’s _called_ “ANDROID”.”

    Sure, it is, but it is also called Android/Linux by me and many others.

    Ask Samsung:

    • They put it in the User-Agent string:“Mozilla / 5.0 (Linux; U; Android 4.0.4; en-gb; GT-N8000 Build / IMM76D) AppleWebKit / 534.30 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version / 4.0 Safari / 534.30”
    • Samsung is a member of the Linux Foundation and Linaro. Linaro: ” Linaro’s output is used by its members, and by distributions including Android, Ubuntu and OEM/ODM customized versions of Linux.

      Distributions such as Android, Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE, Tizen and Ubuntu provide the full user experience whereas Linaro enhances the upstream projects directly and provides useful components to any downstream distributions that wish to leverage the work done by Linaro.”
  19. Mongrol says:

    “Yes, it does, but not as text. It’s in the image in the lower-right corner. Here, I’ll circle it for you:”

    I stand corrected. It’s a pity you and Oiaohm can’t do the same every once in a while.

    My rebuttal still stands, though – it’s external or usersubmitted content, not Google copy.

    “No, not a fact. We’ve seen the source code. It’s Linux”

    That Android is based on the Linux kernel (The Android version no longer compatible with the main Linux line now, I believe) is not what I dispute.

    I am disputing your (and others) erroneous use of “Android/Linux” as the operating system’s NAME.

    It’s _called_ “ANDROID”.

  20. Mongrol wrote, “still a fact is that it’s “Android”, not “Android/Linux””

    No, not a fact. We’ve seen the source code. It’s Linux.

  21. Mongrol wrote, “that page you link to does not actually feature the phrase “Android/Linux” on it, by the way.”

    Yes, it does, but not as text. It’s in the image in the lower-right corner. Here, I’ll circle it for you:

  22. Mongrol says:

    @Dougman.

    “Imagine remotely supporting someone, “Ok, click on the blue tile, ….no not the Weather, Click the BLUE tile, not your Mail, …Click…the….BLUE TILE, no thats Skydrive, no thats USA TODAY, no not the dark blue one, its the sky blue tile, its the sky blue one in the center!”

    All tiles have TEXT saying what they are. This is clearly visible on the image _you_ link to. If you’re going to fabricate scenarios to bash something, at least be convincing.

    @Oiaohm

    “Android” “Ubuntu”

    These are the names of products. You will not find “Android/Linux” or “Ubuntu/Linux” on either of their sites. What the product’s creators call their product overrules the “conventions” (read wishful thinking) of a bunch of basement dwellers.

    @Pogson

    A _Google_ site. Not a Google site referencing external or user-submitted content. And that page you link to does not actually feature the phrase “Android/Linux” on it, by the way.

    “He had the opportunity to call it Android in those days but Linus’ Unix or some variation took hold. ”

    He wanted to call it and did in fact call it “Freax” after dismissing “Linux” as egotistical. However, someone who hosted a mirror of “Freax” and disliked the name changed it to “Linux”, other mirrors picked it up, and “Linux” stuck. No source I can find says “Android” was ever in the running.

    @lpbbear

    “The other fact is Windows 8 will be a HUGE bomb for M$FT. Its about the most butt ugly GUI I have ever seen.”

    Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. Take the GUI-formerly-known-as-Metro away, and it’s just Windows 7 sans Start button. Which aesthetically beats the pants off most Linux DEs. If Windows was that butt-ugly, there wouldn’t be so much effort expended to ape it in themes for XFCE and the rest.

    And still a fact is that it’s “Android”, not “Android/Linux”

  23. Fewt says:

    Netbook Linux failure wasn’t confusion, though that was a small part of the problem.

    It was a failure because vendors created their own customized distribution variants for these devices and didn’t understand the maintenance requirement that went with it. Not to mention how small their onboard storage was. It just wasn’t a good design. YES, they started the market – and they get lots of credit for it, but it wasn’t sustainable.

    I mean, those Eee PC 700 series laptops with ASUS Xandros ports – we constantly saw problems with them running out of disk space or with things broken and what happened to patching? It was non-existent.

    Ultimately the problem wasn’t a “Linux” problem at all, it was an integration and O&M problem.

  24. Yes, the “/” was not invented yesterday. There were a lot of them in the 1960s long before GNU or Linux. I wasted years of my life as a young man waiting for IBM mainframes to do something. “/” was probably the most used character in IT at the time, right after numerals and “a”, “e”, and “i”. There were software/hardware terms, software/software terms and it was all about how much money IBM was to be paid. IBM was not the only company “/”ing. DEC “/”ed about as much. Then there was CDC and others. They all wanted to be paid more for modifiers. “/” was the division symbol in several programming languages and was key in IBM’s Job Control Language (JCL).

    GNU clearly did antedate Linux by many years and a lot were using some form of UNIX OS with it. Linus was using Minix for instance as a development plaform for his early work on Linux. Linus did not want to rewrite everything so it was natural for him to adopt GNU and run Linux with it. He had the opportunity to call it Android in those days but Linus’ Unix or some variation took hold. That’s all water under the bridge. GNU is still very useful all these years after it was conceived.

  25. oiaohm says:

    ssorbom history of alternative shells on windows is littered with failures.

    API/ABI changes in Microsoft side can cause applications to fail.

    Like .net applications can change the abi’s they use for stuff so mess up a replacement shell.

    Time will tell if the latest can hold or will be another failure.

  26. ssorbom wrote, “Why have metro at all?”

    I think there’s no question that is a better interface for tablets. The real question is why force that upon “loyal” desktop users? That makes no sense at all except its a really good way to annoy people while advertising the software for tablets…

    There is a long article on Ars about the software. I don’t pretend to understand it but it looks to me as though M$ has one foot on the dock and one on the boat and the lines have been cast off. Such situations usually don’t have a happy ending although I might enjoy it.

    Turning to the past to power Windows’ future: An in-depth look at WinRT

    People have scolded me for describing M$’s code as spaghetti. I defy anyone to read that article and not see a steaming pile… It claims concepts from the early 1990s still abound in an OS supposedly written this century and I’m not talking about loops and data-structures but really unsound/fragile/vulnerable concepts for an OS. It’s as if they still don’t get multi-tasking. You could not multi-task very well on DOS.

  27. ssorbom says:

    I saw a mention of metro, so I thought I would jump in.
    I installed Windows 8 a few days ago…Yes I think the comparison to children’s software is very apt. I was reminded of a DOS Program called KidDesk that used to serve the purpose of keeping my brothers and I out of trouble on the computer.

    Mr. Pogson, there is something else to note about Metro. If anyone here has used it, please comment on the following observation:
    Most metro apps I have seen are strictly media consumption oriented (sports, news, gaming etc). It seems like any serious work gets done in classic mode, but you have to switch back and forth to access new programs.

    There is a program that adds the start menu back in to the classic mode (and skips past metro at start up), but it is a third party piece of software on sourceforge, and probably not endorsed by Microsoft.
    Classic Shell

    So my quesion is, Why have metro at all? It is possible Microsoft is waiting for 3rd party developers to release their apps (an MS rep at school was REALLY pushing metro), whereupon they will ditch classic in the next upgrade. But why abandon a tried and battle tested interface? To make smartphone cross platform development easier? Who cares?! They are different platforms with different uses. I dont care what analysts say, the PC isn’t going anywhere for the immediate future. Why is Micrsoft being so bullheaded about this? Maybe google and the Android success just have them running scared that they are about to be outdistanced.

  28. “Find me a _Google_ site where Android is called “Android/Linux””

    see https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.galoula.LinuxInstall

    Click on “What’s New”.

  29. lpbear wrote, of “8”, “the most butt ugly GUI I have ever seen”.

    It has been reported that we have seen it before, but I had forgotten that as well. Actually, I don’t think I ever used AOL:
    Amanda Blain’s recollection

  30. lpbbear says:

    “And here you get something right, but for the wrong reason. The “something/something” naming nonsense came about from Stallman’s jealousy over Linus stealing GNU’s thunder.”

    It has nothing to do with Stallman’s so called “jealousy”. The fact is Android runs on top of Linux hence someone calling it “Android/Linux” or “Linux/Android”. No ulterior motive about that, just a fact.

    http://developer.android.com/guide/components/fundamentals.html

    The other fact is Windows 8 will be a HUGE bomb for M$FT. Its about the most butt ugly GUI I have ever seen.

  31. dougman says:

    Mongrel says, “But enough do use these features to justify them being there.”

    The REAL number is 2-3%, no one uses M$ Office to it’s full potential. Thats why I convey to SMB’s if you want to save money, use Libreoffice.

    The one M$ innovation that every Windows users does use is malware, this is the one feature that inexplicably arrives with EVERY Windows device.

    Mongrel says, “Even MS will not waste time working on a feature no-one will ever use.”

    MS is known for creating products and dumping them and on the same notion, the features that you do use they remove. (Eg. START menu)

    Imagine remotely supporting someone, “Ok, click on the blue tile, ….no not the Weather, Click the BLUE tile, not your Mail, …Click…the….BLUE TILE, no thats Skydrive, no thats USA TODAY, no not the dark blue one, its the sky blue tile, its the sky blue one in the center!

    METROFAIL and its glorious mess:
    http://venturebeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/win-8-start1.jpg

  32. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol to be perfectly correct the first convention would have it as Android|linux Over the year due to confusing with l at times it lent over.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol
    –Find me a _Google_ site where Android is called “Android/Linux”. It’s called “Android”.–
    The convention does not require google to use it. By convention you don’t expect them to.

    Mongrol
    –And here you get something right, but for the wrong reason. The “something/something” naming nonsense came about from Stallman’s jealousy over Linus stealing GNU’s thunder.–
    The convention pre-dates GNU/Linux. This claim is bogus. Stallman used a pre existing convention he did not create it.

    Also you see the / used in the windows side.
    Win 3.11 / DOS Dos is kernel Win 3.11 is the user-space. Win 2.0/Dos another example. This appear pre the existence of Linux and pre Stallmans comments. Yet MS packaging and documentation of Windows and dos never used the /.

    It is not something something there are two fixed orders. One has kernel last one has kernel first. Most common is lower level last.
    –userspace(distribution…)–/–kernel(low level)–

    Low level first you would write Linux/Android/–program– You do see people doing Android/program. What is following the low level first convention.
    So you have three valid ways to write it.
    Android
    Android/Linux
    Linux/Android.
    Last one is the rarity. Why would you write a list program low level first.

    So you have a program Linux/Ubuntu/something. Since its Linux there is a way to make it run on Android. Same with Linux/Android/something. There is a way to make that run on other Linux distributions. Might be painful. Low level first is a neat way for writing out to get install order correct and to be able to see what has been tested. Get some idea how much trouble you will be in changing it.

    Mongrol the conventions have a reason and usages. Its related to software management to make it simple to know what is possible at first look.

    Yes it was more important on older systems were you did not have install management.

    Mongrol
    –And you choose a very bad example – Ubuntu is just “Ubuntu”. There are minimal mentions of Linux on their site too.–

    All Linux distributions have a habit of on there site just using there name. No / about kernel. This is exactly in alignment with how Microsoft used early Windows and Dos. Along with other closed source OS makers before the existence of Linux.

    Mongrol this is a old well established convention. Third parties have historically used to. Main reason is to make blood relations between items simple to see.

    Ubuntu might be a well known Linux Distribution. What is CRUX, DD-WRT…… Mongrol the convention is also clarity.

  34. Mongrol says:

    “Mongrol really sorry Android/Linux is valid.”

    Find me a _Google_ site where Android is called “Android/Linux”. It’s called “Android”.

    Or go to http://www.android.com and find ANY mention of Linux.

    And you choose a very bad example – Ubuntu is just “Ubuntu”. There are minimal mentions of Linux on their site too.

    “Mongrol also the convention exists for a reason.”

    And here you get something right, but for the wrong reason. The “something/something” naming nonsense came about from Stallman’s jealousy over Linus stealing GNU’s thunder.

  35. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol
    –But enough do use these features to justify them being there. Even MS will not waste time working on a feature no-one will ever use.–
    Interesting enough I would not be too sure.

    There was a proper study done for one Linux conference looking at some command line tools. The result was shocking. About half the features were truly used by nobody. Worse some were not even documented as existing.

    So some went out and claimed this was foss. Latter studies shows that this is kinda everywhere.

    Reality once a feature is implemented if it is used or not it has a habit of hanging around in the just in case some does use that.

    Yes Microsoft like every other company will be maintaining a percentage of features no one uses today and possibly nobody ever has.

    X11 server method to find out what was used ABI. Break it and see if anyone notices. Result less than 50 percent of the ABI was really used. Yet it had been maintained for years. Some of the dead ABI’s of X11 there has not been found a single production application in the complete history of the dead ABI.

    There are some ABI’s in windows that fall into this camp. Yes the if we make this they will come and use it and no one turns up.

  36. oiaohm says:

    Mongrol really sorry Android/Linux is valid. Its the same a Ubuntu/Linux Instead of just Ubuntu.

    Android is just a different form of Linux Distribution. This will become more clear as time goes on. Causes will be like the graphical layers in GNU based and Android based aligning.

    /Linux comes from embedded. Android is a embed user-space so its is very valid to use it.

    Mongrol also the convention exists for a reason. Debian/Linux Debian/kfreebsd Debian/Hurd

    Really someone could gets nuts one day and do an Android without a Linux kernel.

  37. Mongrol says:

    “A lot of M$’s bloat is bloat in the number of features. Humans rarely use anywhere near the features M$ puts out. ”

    But enough do use these features to justify them being there. Even MS will not waste time working on a feature no-one will ever use.

    “Further, a user of Android/Linux ”

    There’s still no such thing. It’s just “Android”. That it uses a kernel based on the Linux kernel does not get Linux shared top billing.

  38. dougman wrote, “Windows RT install 12,000MB
    Android install 340MB

    Thats a 35:1 ratio, and they both do the very same thing! If thats not bloated, I don’t know what is. Imagine trying to tow a trailer, one at 340lbs. vs 12,000lbs. which one would you prefer?”

    Good point but bloat does not always equate to poor performance. A lot of M$’s bloat is bloat in the number of features. Humans rarely use anywhere near the features M$ puts out. That’s waste and it certainly increases the bug-count and opportunities for malware. It’s just the wrong way to do IT. Further, a user of Android/Linux can add the features of his/her choice from an app store/market/play… and because they use them they will find them when needed. That’s much more efficient and makes the OS more personal. Users love that, even the non-techies who get their kids to add the app. My “little woman” uses her smart phone almost as much as she uses her several PCs. She even has carpal tunnel syndrome…

    I was at a wonderful party last night that lasted until the wee hours. Every few minutes, someone in the room was using a smart phone and it wasn’t to make/receive phone calls but to take pictures, to find information, to record contact information. I felt so old. I had to have an e-mail address written on paper in order to send some suggestions for landscaping… The party lasted hours and no one asked, “May I use your PC?”. There was no need.

  39. Finalzone says:

    Ask Microsoft and Apple to show the code and see them turning around.

  40. dougman says:

    I say bring on the trolls! Trolls hate being exposed to the light of day and truth. They always try to skew (hijack) the topic away and go off on some tangent that was completely irrelevant to the topic discussed.

    Trolls poke their head out, get whacked then eventually banned.

    Ok, kids let’s put these in real numbers:

    Windows RT install 12,000MB
    Android install 340MB

    Thats a 35:1 ratio, and they both do the very same thing! If thats not bloated, I don’t know what is. Imagine trying to tow a trailer, one at 340lbs. vs 12,000lbs. which one would you prefer?

    Why should anyone have to deal with that much weight?? Makes you wonder why Apple and M$ are trying to vehemently sue Android in court, which will eventually backfire on them, thereby doing away with all software patents!

  41. Lutz D. Meier wrote, “great blog. But it’s infested with trolls”

    Thanks. They sure don’t appreciate me. I suggested they leave, rather forcefully today. One of them spoke German. With your credentials, perhaps you could fill the void from time to time with better translations than Google provides.

  42. Lutz D. Meier says:

    I found this yesterday while browsing the net:

    http://www.osnews.com/story/26483/Windows_RT_Office_RT_takes_up_12GB_disk_space

    That sounds insane. Even if some apps are included, you have no more than 20 GB left on a 32 GB device. What were they thinking? Not too much, I believe:

    There’s some good reasons why it’s larger, though. First of all, Microsoft’s Office team was unable to create a Metro Office in time, and as such, even the RT version includes the entire old desktop stack – just to run Office (you can’t install anything else on the desktop). This most likely takes up a considerable amount of space.

    The complete desktop stack on a mobile device? Oh my.

    By the way: great blog. But it’s infested with trolls. Seems you’re doing something right. 🙂

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