Romanian Government Department – 7 Years Using GNU/Linux And Loving It

“We chose Linux and other open source solutions because we wanted trouble-free workstations.”

see Romanian animal monitoring program proves open source's reliability | Joinup.

They use Linux Mint on client machines and they also have a rugged database server with PostgreSQL, 24 CPU-cores and tons of RAM to coordinate everything.

Imagine what their annual costs would be for non-FREE software on those systems…

  • ~$250K for Oracle database
  • ~$10K for that other OS
  • ~$15K for M$’s office suite

Seven years of saving would be ~$2million or more. You bet FLOSS saves money and it gives rock-solid performance.

I have been getting that kind of performance for more than a decade with GNU/Linux and I have been loving Debian GNU/Linux for five years.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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131 Responses to Romanian Government Department – 7 Years Using GNU/Linux And Loving It

  1. kozmcrae says:

    Mongrol wrote:

    “However well your opponent plays, you just knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and then say you won.”

    It doesn’t matter what rules of engagement you use with the Cult of Microsoft or how you interact with them. They are the lowest common denominator of any discussion regarding the freedom of software choice and FLOSS.

    I must be doing something right, you’re the second person to declare victory for me in recent times.

  2. Mongrol says:

    Koz, arguing with you is like playing chess against a pigeon.

    However well your opponent plays, you just knock all the pieces over, crap on the board, and then say you won.

  3. kozmcrae says:

    That Exploit Guy wrote:

    “You are welcome to voice your complaint to the chief editor of ComputerWorld.”

    Not his error, it’s your lie. That “External Audit” never existed and you created a phony link.

    That’s the real story TEG. Yes, everyone needs a good laugh and right now I’m laughing at you. You can’t even win a debate with phony links, outright lies and a mouth full of BS.

    See you later when you reincarnate.

  4. That Exploit Guy says:

    @kozmcrae

    ‘You created that phony link.’

    You are welcome to voice your complaint to the chief editor of ComputerWorld. As I always say, everyone needs a good laugh every now and again.

  5. kozmcrae says:

    @ That Exploit Guy

    You created that phony link. Then you just make stuff up and throw it at Robert. What’s this “can’t get it to work”? Go ahead, throw that crap at me.

  6. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘FLOSS works well in both.’

    I can also say that Windows works well in both as well. The problem that you, as the stand-in technician, can’t get it to work is in every way irrelevant to the operating system itself.

  7. TEG wrote, “you are not recociling that story with your previous statement on “no plan for acquiring new machines, no budget to do so and not even enough electrical outlets for more”. Remember – you are the one here using your past exploits with schools’ ICT facilities to justify your choice of software”

    You are the one mixing exploits in old buildings with exploits in new buildings. FLOSS works well in both.

  8. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘Easterville was a brand new school with a capital budget for IT and cable-trays built in for a network.’

    Again, you are not recociling that story with your previous statement on “no plan for acquiring new machines, no budget to do so and not even enough electrical outlets for more”. Remember – you are the one here using your past exploits with schools’ ICT facilities to justify your choice of software, not me, and I have no obligation to unravel your convoluted reasoning for you.

    ‘MTBF is a measure of the average of statistical events.’

    I am sorry, but as someone who don’t even know how to apply the maths correctly, you don’t get to lecture me about MTBF. Take what the article says and just shut up about it already.

    ‘I studied nuclear physics and know how it works.’

    You studied nuclear physics, so stick to nuclear physics. You aren’t qualified as an expert of IT and will never be considered as such with your current background in the industry.

    Learn your place.

  9. TEG wrote, “you in fact went and outfitted the Easterville school with at least dozens of spanking new thin clients. How do you reconcile a statement like this and what you have done in actuality?”

    Easterville is a real place, not imaginary:

    Easterville was a brand new school with a capital budget for IT and cable-trays built in for a network. The typical school where I worked predated twisted-pair LANs being popular in schools and in some cases Lose ’95. I have worked in classrooms with 2 to 4 electrical outlets in rooms because all they imagined was the odd television or projector in use and those on carts to be shared amongst classrooms. The idea of a cluster of PCs in each classroom is fairly recent. The cost of rewiring schools is prohibitive. They tend to wait until the building is falling down before doing that. In Easterville the student population overflowed to other communities so they eventually built a new school. They did have conduits in the design but cable-trays had to be added and storage rooms converted to racks before we could move in. Each classroom had multiple Cat-6 cable connections but we had only a few gigabit/s ports on switches. That kind of infrastructure is extremely rare in education. The high schools I attended are still standing and being used. The oldest is my age…

    MTBF is a measure of the average of statistical events. To the extent that there are a large number of variables the lifetime can be approximated by a normal distribution and the way to combine the standard deviations of multiple normal distributions is to add the standard deviations in quadrature. I studied nuclear physics and know how it works. If you model a PC as a cluster of radioactive atoms the probability that an explosion will take out any atom in the system is the sum of the probabilities that any atom in the cluster will explode. The standard deviation of the resulting distribution of events will be the square root of the sum of the squares of the individual standard deviations. As the MTBF is related to the standard deviation linearly this works for MTBF’s too only as reciprocals because the probability we want has units of per unit time. So, it’s the laws of combining probabilities and the idea of rates, not rocket science. A system of parts is less reliable than any of its parts unless there is redundancy something COTS does not endorse currently. There are effects of infant mortality and defects of manufacture which take out systems much sooner but the systems under consideration are old and well-tested.

  10. oldman wrote, “I am also aware that it is just as possible for someone with your apparent level of technical expertise to put together and maintain such an assemblage of old systems without resorting to a total conversion to linux.”

    How are you going to “FOSS and Linux based appliances (e.g. OpenFiler, Clonezilla) along with windows freeware (e.g. sparklexp, Powershell, amiword) to give a technically minded teacher a lab that they could not only maintain but could get help on from the widest number of sources after I left and if something breaks.”

    I left them Clonezilla and used it to keep XP running but I was having to re-image two or three XPs per week and none with GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux is just the right way to do IT in schools. XP was picking up malware even with the latest and greatest anti-malware running on each client. No teacher has the time to do that with no budget.

  11. oldman says:

    So, get off your high horse, you condescending old fart.

    Not until you get off yours Get of your you old bigot!

    I am well aware of situations like the one you have been in. I am also aware that it is just as possible for someone with your apparent level of technical expertise to put together and maintain such an assemblage of old systems without resorting to a total conversion to linux. Of course that person has to be willing to look past the end of his/her nose and do things that they might not want to do.

    I have used FOSS and Linux based appliances (e.g. OpenFiler, Clonezilla) along with windows freeware (e.g. sparklexp, Powershell, amiword) to give a technically minded teacher a lab that they could not only maintain but could get help on from the widest number of sources after I left and if something breaks.

    Because unlike you Pog, I don’t just assume that a system will never break or be broken, especially a system pasted together from castoff worn out technology that is powered by a hackers distribution like Debian Linux.

  12. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘There was no plan for acquiring new machines, no budget to do so and not even enough electrical outlets for more.’

    Yet, if I remember correctly you in fact went and outfitted the Easterville school with at least dozens of spanking new thin clients. How do you reconcile a statement like this and what you have done in actuality?

    Also, no, that’s not how you calculate MTBF. Read the article I have cited.

  13. oldman wrote, “until the new machines come in”.

    There was no plan for acquiring new machines, no budget to do so and not even enough electrical outlets for more. I maxed out their infrastructure right down to the last power-bar. You know little of the places I have been. There is no planning for IT in many of the schools where I worked. I gave them a plan and it worked and they were thankful. You have no basis to pontificate on the subject. That other OS was not working for them. They could not afford to ship out PCs and had accumulated a pile of unbootable machines and were running machines with malware because there was nothing else to do. I did my best to keep XP running but it was impossible. I was working extra hours per week to do that. With GNU/Linux it only took me minutes per week to manage the machines. The system I set up was solid and performed well on the hardware they had. They didn’t need and could not afford newer hardware mostly. I gave them control over their IT and maximized the use of it.

    The situation I describe with IT is just the tip of an iceberg. Many of these places had not increased teachers’ pay for a decade thanks to governmental mismanagement. Government had been “studying” the situation for 8 years when I retired. I gave the schools where I worked a viable means of supporting IT in such a meagre situation. Government gave them almost no room to move and I made it work. So, get off your high horse, you condescending old fart.

  14. oldman says:

    Maybe it is possible to teach an oldman a new trick.

    I could teach You a few Mr. K.

  15. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “Perhaps you just want to declare victory and move on, it’s OK by me…”

    Maybe it is possible to teach an oldman a new trick.

  16. oldman says:

    Triple the number of PCs working. I fixed 20 they had not working, and installed 40 more for just the cost of freight riding along on trucks coming North.

    You saddled them with junk hardware and locked them into FOSS on linux. You removed any choice that they had. Nice Work.

    Extremely little down-time

    irrelevant – the same can be done with windows if you know how.

    <No slowing down.

    Not an issue with modern systems.

    Far more applications than they had.

    Most of which were also available on windows for free as well.

    Web applications and databases.

    Which could have run on one system max.

    Centralized management of PCs and OS and applications.

    Which can also be done with windows for free using similar techniques – can you say powershell with windows remoting?

    It was faster than new PCs that arrived later on.

    Irrelevant. All of the FOSS that you gave them could have been installed on the new systems with windows and the junk that was really only a stopgap could have been returned to the scrap heap where it belonged.

    Pog you are not talking to someone who does not know what is going on. Spare me your excuses. The fact is that at best you may have given them a stopgap until the new machines come in. After that point you saddled them with junk that was pasted back together – Worse, you may have left management with the notion that what they have will never need to be upgraded, which is hogwash. Even FOSS running on linux can benefit from more modern hardware. Which thanks to you they may never get.

    Good going Pog!

  17. oldman wrote, “What they got Pog was your notion of “Good IT” Just how good it is is open to debate.”

    Let’s see:

    1. Triple the number of PCs working. I fixed 20 they had not working, and installed 40 more for just the cost of freight riding along on trucks coming North.
    2. Extremely little down-time
    3. No slowing down.
    4. Far more applications than they had.
    5. Web applications and databases.
    6. Centralized management of PCs and OS and applications.

    all for no extra cost. Wouldn’t you agree that was better IT than just the teachers having IT? The students did not even have a lab nor hardly any machines running in classrooms before I arrived. There was no way to give them that with XP. “7” was out of the question. Further the students’ lab used thin clients and they all got to run on a Xeon that was pretty sharp. It was faster than new PCs that arrived later on.

  18. oldman says:

    Cherry picking from among my comments eh Pog? Not unexpected when your been caught out and have nothing to say in response.

    I worked for my employer and did what was best for the employer. They got good IT with no hit to the budget.

    What they got Pog was your notion of “Good IT” Just how good it is is open to debate.

    But whatever…

  19. oldman wrote, “that would have involved an honest effort to work with microsoft, which you will never do.”

    Why should I work for M$ for $0? I worked for my employer and did what was best for the employer. They got good IT with no hit to the budget.

  20. oldman says:

    Yeah, right, as if my time is worth nothing.

    Oh Really? Then that makes you a hypocrite Robert Pogson. You have taken positions consistently that you have been told will waste Others time by saddling them with tools that were less fit for purpose for their needs.

    This is how friendly M$ is to schools, threatening audits.

    SO what you are is that you didnt even try. That dishonesty is par for the course for you.

    M$’s EULA is obscence for schools. My whole purpose in compliance with the curriculum was to maximize the use of IT in education. The EULA prevented that.

    How did the EULA prevent you Pog? you didnt have cleear licenses? A call to Microsoft or to the entity that donated the machines should have gotten the ball rolling. And a NAS box like Openfiler would get around the EULA limitations of peer to peer networking.

    but then again that would have involved an honest effort to work with microsoft, which you will never do.

    And please dont tell me you had no time, you have made it clear that you found spare time to install linux.

    No your purpose as expressed over time in you blog has clearly been to move microsoft out of every school that you can at all costs, this is nothing more than an excuse and a transparent one at that, so spare me the bullshit.

    I would never do anything to invite M$ to visit or phone a school. They don’t need the hassles.

    What were you afraid of Pog, that they might actually HELP the school and as a result your crusade would be derailed?

  21. oldman says:

    Did we lose the topic or did you suddenly realize the danger I was warning you about?

    Its OK Mr. K. Hang in there the men in the white code they will be along with your meds any day now.

    Perhaps you just want to declare victory and move on, it’s OK by me…

  22. oldman wrote, “All of this is at zero cost Robert Pogson. THe problem with it is, of course it keeps Microsoft around,”

    Yeah, right, as if my time is worth nothing. Do you know what it would take for me to make a call to M$? I was fully scheduled with no spares at the time and could not leave a classroom full of teenagers. After hours the office was locked. I had a narrow window of opportunity to use a phone at the start and end of the day when other duties were pressing like keeping kids alive at the bus stop. Nope. It was easier to install GNU/Linux at my leisure doing everything properly and getting better performance to boot. In the second semester I did have a spare but by then the deed was done and I saw no need to reverse the process. No one missed the malware, re-re-reboots, and slowing down and M$’s newest software would not run on our machines with 256MB and 512MB RAM. M$ was no help to us at all except they supposedly gave us free licences of which I had no documentation, just the damned stickers which the BSA says are not enough.

    This is how friendly M$ is to schools, threatening audits.

    M$’s EULA is obscence for schools. My whole purpose in compliance with the curriculum was to maximize the use of IT in education. The EULA prevented that. I would never do anything to invite M$ to visit or phone a school. They don’t need the hassles.

  23. kozmcrae says:

    @ That Exploit Guy

    Ah, if you don’t have that link now, you never did have it. It doesn’t exist if you can’t produce it in your next post. And your BS isn’t a substitute.

  24. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote comment 101:

    What are you talking about?

    Google keyword search: Microsoft crime against humanity.

    Did we lose the topic or did you suddenly realize the danger I was warning you about? Nobody seems interested in defending Microsoft’s “good name” against being tagged with a crime against humanity.

    Don’t worry, I’m be sure to bring it up from time to time in other unrelated threads.

    Google keyword search: Microsoft crime against humanity.

    Google keyword search: Microsoft crime against humanity.

    Google keyword search: Microsoft crime against humanity.

    Google keyword search: Microsoft crime against humanity.

  25. oldman says:

    Give me a break.You weren’t there. What would you have done, run home to your mummy because there was no budget to give to M$?

    NO I would have contacted my local education rep for Microsoft Canada, explained the situation and gone from there.

    Microsoft is not stupid Robert Pogson, they will work with educational institutions if asked.

    OF course I am sure that you would have rather have cut your arm off rather than ask microsoft for any help – too easy to declare an impass and impose your solution.

    As far as sharing is concerned, taking one of your stations and installing OpenFiler appliance software would have taken care of network sharing at zero cost in a way that could be maintained. I’ve done it with several small schools and it works, AND it doesn’t violate any Microsoft EULAS – the windows desktops connect to Openfiler appliance.

    INternet isolation could be taken care of with cheap Home NAT firewall. If there was no budget even for something that cheap one could take a Desktop, stick a second nic in it and install a software router appliance Vyatta core router appliance software (www.vyatta.org). Configuring it would take come learning, but the documentation and examples are good and configuring the the router to function as a simple nat firewall is easily documented in a page of text.

    And the windows systems could still be filled with the FOSS of your choice, would could be installed under a User account. And If I really wanted to I could use local policies applied on SAMBA login to lock down the systems.

    Install Windows Management framework to enable powershell and remoting and I would have all those desktops standing up and whistling dixie.

    All of this is at zero cost Robert Pogson. THe problem with it is, of course it keeps Microsoft around, and it also requires you to truly learn how to maintain windows systems, not just hack away at them and then dump them because “they are crap” when the real problem is that you a) do not know what you are doing and b) do not want to know anything that would interfere with your mission to replace microsoft with linux by hook or by crook.

  26. oldman wrote, “DOn’t you mean that, never having acquired any appreciable skills in maintaining a windows based environment because of your biases, you windows maintenance skills consisted of manually reloading each and every windows machine manually…

    You could even have turned to FOSS like Clonezilla to get the job done, and the results would have been have been maintainable with commodity skills.”

    I did use CloneZilla and I added a commercial anti-malware package. Nothing worked for long. MTBF was just a few months and I had a day job, teaching. I had no installation media, no backups and no way even to prove we had a licence. Further we were definitely violating EULA by the networking setup, everyone sharing and networking was insane when I arrived everyone on the Internet with no firewall. Give me a break.You weren’t there. What would you have done, run home to your mummy because there was no budget to give to M$?

  27. oldman says:

    I had no time to babysit that other OS.

    DOn’t you mean that, never having acquired any appreciable skills in maintaining a windows based environment because of your biases, you windows maintenance skills consisted of manually reloading each and every windows machine manually…

    You could even have turned to FOSS like Clonezilla to get the job done, and the results would have been have been maintainable with commodity skills.

    All he should have to do for years is keep them turned on.

    Assuming that something will just run is great when you are no longer there. As you know things break and “nincompoops” exist. The law of averages says that your lash-up will last only until the first windows oriented administrator comes in and attempts to fix it. Or something craps out and it turns out that they have lost your manual.

  28. oldman wrote, ” course you did your usual IMHO dishonest song and dance about how much better off they would be, and being that they now had old machines “working again” they probably didn’t mind at all.”

    That’s not what happened at all. I took the best machines I could find to use as images and re-imaged the unbootable machines. That got them running but I had no way to re-install or to keep them running. GNU/Linux was a viable solution eventually and it worked. I had no time to babysit that other OS. I did leave a manual but I doubt anyone would read it of the staff that was there. I was told to leave the root password with a nincompoop. I have no idea what he did with it. That my phone has not been ringing suggests he just allowed the system to keep running. As you know, a GNU/Linux system left to itself will keep running. He at least knows which machines run the firewall/router/DHCP server/kid-filter. All he should have to do for years is keep them turned on.

  29. oldman says:

    The others had that other OS in an unbootable state. They were 4 to 8 years old.

    An of course instead of fix or reinitializing the windows configurations, you went and on your own initiative performed a forced conversion to Linux. IF course you did your usual IMHO dishonest song and dance about how much better off they would be, and being that they now had old machines “working again” they probably didn’t mind at all.

    And that will last until the first linux upgrade breaks the system, or something blows up and they have to “repair” and the repair person doesn’t know linux.

    Lets hope you left them a thorough cookbook on how to maintain what you left them.

  30. TEG wrote, “And what would be the evidence that supports this particularly extraordinary claim of yours?”

    Manufacturers of many components (not CPUs and motherboards, strangely) list MTBF in hundreds of thousands of hours:

    If I accept that critical fans will have a sensor or the things they protect will have a sensor that works, I can ignore the shorter lifetime of fans which are going to be picked up by periodic cleaning/inspections anyway.

    The MTBF of the system will be of the order sqrt((1/mtbf PSU)2
    + (1/mtbf hard drive)2) which is just under 100K hours. A year has 50 weeks X 40h =2000h so that’s ~50 years.

    Further, I have been in schools that more or less kept hardware as long it functioned and the average age of PCs was about 8 years. They chucked stuff which wouldn’t boot, like the OS… I think in all the years I worked in schools from 1997 to 2011, I only had a few PCs really die on me, just one or two motherboards. Most of the ones I could not refurbish had non-ATX motherboards. That’s not real death, just obsolescence. The oldest PC I had working for me was 15 years old. It was really slow but it worked. I set it up as a thin client and it was OK as long as no one shut it off. It had a 10 mbits/s NIC and poor screen resolution but it was certainly usable for text and images. 8-10 year old PCs with 100mbits/s NICs and 1024×768 or better were just fine for what we did.

    I taught students to refurbish PCs. Mean time to refurbish was about 10 minutes. Most of that was cleaning. Swapping a noisy/dead fan was 2 minutes on most models. A few cursed models required removing all kinds of stuff to reach the fan. A system that would not boot was tested by swapping PSU connections. If it booted, actually swapping the PSU was a few minutes. A few cursed models required extreme contortions to do that but Most ATX systems were just a few screws and a few connectors. I have met connectors which were difficult to unlock but brute force usually worked. So the average time to clean and repair an old PC was a bit over 10 minutes, up to 20 minutes if parts had to be swapped. We tested RAM too but rarely found old PCs with bad RAM so it was not routine except when performance was flaky. We usually tried to get cases of cheap PSUs, fans and mice in on petty cash… That was risky but it was the best we could do. Most principals I had budgeted only for toner for printers. I could sometimes route that money to parts by getting the photocopier to be our high speed printer. So, for 50 to 100 PCs I had a parts budget of a few $hundred usually and I rarely had a PC “die”. A lot of the parts budget was used to enhance performance on key machines like adding RAM to servers or adding gigabit/s NICs rather than fixing broken machines.

    When I first reported for work at my last school, half the PCs in the building were in a pile in the lab ready to be scrapped. Only one was dead. The others had that other OS in an unbootable state. They were 4 to 8 years old. We doubled the number of PCs in that school in a year and a half and only one PSU died. It had an odd fan-size and I had no budget to buy a fan the right size for that PSU. It was 90mm and all our fans were 80 or 120mm.

  31. oldman says:

    How are you holding up oldman?

    I am holding up just fine Mr. K.

    You see I have stared Cancer in the face and beat it,

    IN that context your efforts are literally

    nothing.

    Have a nice day!

  32. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Rober Pogson

    ‘MTBF of an assembly of ATX parts can easily be 100K hours, 50 years.’

    And what would be the evidence that supports this particularly extraordinary claim of yours? Lemme guess – your faulty calculation over a period of three days using whatever horrendously glued-together set-up you have done for other people?

    You see, I could have gone for “some random Linux forum” or “spam email”, but I am just generous like that.

  33. TEG wrote a lot of nonsense and this gem, “your average hardware in the market usually has a warranty period of only three years (and that has already taken the durability of the product into account). If something breaks down along the way for whatever reason, where are you supposed to find replacement parts, then?”

    MTBF of an assembly of ATX parts can easily be 100K hours, 50 years. The odd machine that dies earlier can be replaced by a generic PC with GNU/Linux, unlike that other OS. In my entire career with thousands of PCs of ages from 0 to 15 years I have only had a few “die”. Most needed a fan or PSU swap and away they went. There are PCs where it is quite a chore to do such swaps but many are toolless and it is a couple of minutes. Using thin clients and keeping a few on a shelf in each office allows users to swap units and carry on with interdepartmental mail preventing any IT guy from having to visit. Also, thin clients are cheap enough an office can afford to have a few extra so a user only has to slide over to another one and carry on. Some use stateless clients so the cursor will be right where it was when the PSU died.

    It is silly to worry about a warranty or spare parts when an organization has thousands of units. Just buy a few extra and carry on. The shelf life of a lot of this technology is many years. Call it self-insured. It could be that a particular batch has a design flaw or faulty parts. That does happen but it is so rare when buying from dependable suppliers that it’s not a worry for me. Let rate of failure determine end of life. Thin clients and ARMed units should have much longer lifetimes than a general-purpose machine so that’s one reason I advise people use them.

  34. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘Chuckle. That’s a different tune. A while ago trolls were claiming there was no external audit…’

    I don’t know who’s chuckling here. Worry not, however – let this humble blog archaeologist help you dig out whatever you are looking for you.

    Would the comment you had in mind be this?

    Munich which is saving €millions annually in licences and maintenance’

    Facts not in evidence. Show me the external audit or shut up.’

    It seems to me that the dissenters have again rightfully pointed out you simply don’t have anything other than your sheer imagination to support your assertion. Also, don’t try and label people who are right about you “trolls”, as the only trolls here are you and your supporters who have nothing to substaintiate your farcical claims.

    ‘Did the audit send the police after any fraud? Nope.’

    I don’t think frauds or embazzlements have been a topic of discussion in this matter. Are you mistaking this blog for another one that you are perhaps also running?

    ‘The auditor is happy enough that the project is on budget.’

    I don’t think they are exactly “happy” with the fact that the City of Munich is reluctant to state the expected outcomes in their budget, and they do make that abundantly clear in that one single paragraph I have cited.

    ‘That’s not tens of millions thrown into a pit. They are getting results and buying many fewer licences from M$.’

    Who cares? Maybe that’s one of the top priorities in Pogson’s universe, but for someone who is not dabbled in FOSS fantasies, how does that even matter the slightest?

    ‘If they had not migrated, how many rounds of M$’s licences would they have gone with’

    Again, you are completely ignoring the fact that the City of Munich has already sunk tens of millions of euros into the migration alone. That opportunity cost will simply not be recouped until many, many rounds of licensing fees have been saved as a result of the migration. In other words, unless you are content with estimates that project decades into the future, there is no reason believe that such an exercise was worthwhile.

    ‘Now they can “apt-get” and replace one package or all of them on their schedule and replace their hardware in ten years if they want.’

    Really? Putting aside saying “apt-get upgrade” never breaks your system is at best stretching the truth, your average hardware in the market usually has a warranty period of only three years (and that has already taken the durability of the product into account). If something breaks down along the way for whatever reason, where are you supposed to find replacement parts, then? I know the concept of “planned obsolescence” is probably too hard for you to grasp, but for a reasonably well-established organisation, it is in every way as important as, say, paying the electricity bill on time. A ten-year cycle of planned obsolescence would imply using the hardware three times longer than even the manufacturer would support, and I am afraid even the most adventurous of risk-takers in the business world would find that a little unwise.

  35. That Exploit Guy says:

    @kozmcrae

    The link itself somehow fell into a black hole in the deep space of the Internet (or maybe the one in Munich’s budget – who knows?)

    Anyhow, unless you haven’t been following this blog recently, you know exactly what I am talking about.

  36. TEG wrote, “Face it – they don’t even have any specific goal for each item in the budget, and that’s a fact clearly stated in the external audit.”

    Chuckle. That’s a different tune. A while ago trolls were claiming there was no external audit…

    Did the audit send the police after any fraud? Nope. The auditor is happy enough that the project is on budget. That’s not tens of millions thrown into a pit. They are getting results and buying many fewer licences from M$.

    Why do you guys even bother to question that? It’s obvious people save money on licences forever and the migration is a one-time cost that’s under-budget.

    If they had not migrated, how many rounds of M$’s licences would they have gone with, 1 or 2? There’s tens of $millions saved. 15K X $100 = $1.5million. Don’t forget the office suite and the newer versions of M$-only apps… and the newer hardware and … You guys would probably have claimed they were crazy not to adopt Vista and “7”… and the servers and the latest apps. Now they can “apt-get” and replace one package or all of them on their schedule and replace their hardware in ten years if they want.

  37. kozmcrae says:

    Give us a link to that “external audit” will you please Exploit Guy. There’s really no way to carry on a discussion about it if it’s a one-way discussion.

    The link in this sentence of yours is empty: “In fact, what the external audit points out is that City of Munich has never in any way specified the progress they expect to see with the allocated funds:”

  38. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘Uh, the mayor, the council and the taxpayers are all happy.’

    Like the mayor is going to tell the everyone that he’s screwed up? Seriously, what kind of fantasy-land do you live in, Mr. Pogson?

    ‘Munich just cruises along not buying licences for software…’

    I don’t think getting stuck in a migration project with no end in sight exactly qualifies as “crusies along”. Sure, they aren’t buying licences for software, but claiming that they are in fact reducing their overall expenditure as a result is just downright disingenuous and dishonest.

    ‘From now on they are saving huge amounts every few years. Instead of paying for a bunch of licences on thousands of PCs every few years (3 or 4, according to some of the trolls here), they keep on saving. The more years go by the more they save.’

    If we are to completely ignore the fact that the money has instead gone by the truckload both externally and internally towards the migration, then, yes, you can most definitely say that they have “saved” something. How long we need to wait until the City of Munich breaks even over the project (if at all), however, is a question remaining to be answered.

    ‘Oh, you wish. They planned to migrate thousands of PCs to FLOSS and GNU/Linux and they have done so.’

    Face it – they don’t even have any specific goal for each item in the budget, and that’s a fact clearly stated in the external audit. However you spin it, the City of Munich is effectively tossing tens of millions of dollars over the past 10 years into a pit called “Limux” and hope that things will somehow magically happen over the course, and no one even seems to be able to come up with a straightforward answer as to whether the reduced user complaints are due to the project itself or merely the result of recent focus in staff training.

    ‘Certainly it could be done faster and cheaper with the Pogsonian method but they didn’t want to break anything so took a much more slow and thorough course.’

    Chuckle. I am sure however desperate City of Munich is, they are never going to be as desperate as a school in some remote town in Manitoba.

    Keep dreaming, Mr. Pogson, if that helps you sleep better at night.

  39. kozmcrae says:

    Garrett D’Amore wrote:

    “Its almost impossible to build a product around GPLv3 code unless the only way you create value is through selling support.”

    If you are a developer, maybe. What’s the ratio of users to developers? 100,000:1? That statement gets turned on its head if it’s the users who are writing the code. That is often the case with FLOSS.

    If you are a developer and you are planning to create and sell a proprietary product, why would you be looking at a GPLv3 license? You wouldn’t. Problem solved.

    Oh wait, I forgot. There’s all that juicy code in libraries already written that takes care of about 85% of all the grunt work just sitting there in the Linux repositories. The only problem is that pesky GPLv2 and GPLv3.

    Well, it’s not really a problem. If you use the code, abide by the rules of the very simple GPL license. If you feel that you cannot abide by the rules of the GPL, then don’t use the code. It’s that simple.

  40. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “I see, so now we are going to descend into the stupid, are we? You dont get to make definitions like that withut looking like the biggest asshole going.”

    I see the discussion has already shifted away from Microsoft’s crime against humanity. Good one oldman. What about IBM? You’re not even going to try to bring that nonsense into the discussion?

    No, it’s not about how stupid I am. It’s about you and your Cult of Microsoft brothers defending and championing the cause of a company that has committed a crime against humanity. At least one class of crimes (enslavement), maybe more. That makes you a co-defendant.

    Don’t worry oldman. You will never be brought to trial or anything official. Your nym here will just be remembered as one who helped to delay the progression of FLOSS. You are not cheering for the good guys oldman. Maybe you need to be told that outright. Microsoft are the bad guys (the ones that went to court a few times and lost), FLOSS are the good guys (they bring free software to the World). You are one of the bad guys oldman. I don’t make the rules, so don’t blame me.

    Remember, this is a discussion about Microsoft, their followers and their crime against humanity. If you want to throw in IBM and their WWII atrocities that’s fine too. Of course, as always, I’m fair game too.

    How are you holding up oldman? I noticed a couple of keyboard errors. You might want to proof read you work before clicking on the “Post Comment” button. It will be easier for both of us that way.

  41. TEG wrote, “Nope. So far there is not a shred of evidence suggesting that even the City of Munich has in fact saved anything as a result of migrating to Linux. In fact, what the external audit points out is that City of Munich has never in any way specified the progress they expect to see with the allocated funds:”

    Uh, the mayor, the council and the taxpayers are all happy. What more evidence do you need? While other jurisdictions using that other OS have been wallowing in expenses and desperately hunting for ways to cut IT spending, Munich just cruises along not buying licences for software… Sure, it cost a lot to convert templates and macros and applications but that’s a one-time cost and they are done. From now on they are saving huge amounts every few years. Instead of paying for a bunch of licences on thousands of PCs every few years (3 or 4, according to some of the trolls here), they keep on saving. The more years go by the more they save. It’s easy maths. Try it. It’s not as if Munich’s bottom line is not known and they are open about revenue and expenditure.

    TEG also wrote, “it is clear that Limux project has always been a failed project, i.e. an effort not meeting key adminstrative goals, based on unrealistic expectations and extremely poor management by the City itself and is simply shooting a perpetually moving target that leaves the project itself in the purgatory of incompletion.”

    Oh, you wish. They planned to migrate thousands of PCs to FLOSS and GNU/Linux and they have done so. At the same time they reorganized all of IT along much more efficient lines. That’s a double win, not a failure. It’s nothing like other non-FLOSS projects we’ve heard about that multiplied costs before they were eventually killed. That’s failure. Limux is success. Certainly it could be done faster and cheaper with the Pogsonian method but they didn’t want to break anything so took a much more slow and thorough course. Others seeking the same end will find greater efficiencies but that was not their first concern. It was to obtain more independence from vendors without breaking anything. They’ve done that. It’s the rest of us that touted savings as a huge benefit. According to the mayor they have saved a bundle and will save more in the future. That’s believable. Your assumptions that that’s not possible is not believable. In project I have done there were no cost overruns or huge delays. Everything worked more or less as planned. How can it not be so. It’s just an OS and a set of applications. Anything can be accomplished and costs are limited. Savings are not.

  42. That Exploit Guy says:

    @kozmcrae

    ‘You can look at the billions of dollars the European Union is saving just by the small number of municipalities and organizations that have migrated over to FLOSS.’

    Nope. So far there is not a shred of evidence suggesting that even the City of Munich has in fact saved anything as a result of migrating to Linux. In fact, what the external audit points out is that City of Munich has never in any way specified the progress they expect to see with the allocated funds:

    “Mit der vorliegenden Kalkulation ist zwar die Mittelverwendung ausreichend beplant. Aus unserer Sicht fehlt aber noch eine Gegenüberstellung zu den Ergebnissen und Produkten, welche mit dem Einsatz dieser Mittel erreicht werden sollen. Erst auf Basis einer solchen Gegenüberstellung kann beurteilt werden, ob die verbleibenden Mittel für die Zielerreichung des Projekts ausreichend sind. Dazu ist eine grobe Abbildung des notwendigen Aufwands zu den einzelnen geplanten Ergebnissen und Produkten erforderlich. Wir empfehlen daher, dass die Projektleitung die vorliegende Ausgabenplanung einer Planung der damit zu erzielenden Projektergebnisse gegenüberstellt und die Aufwände auf die einzelnen Ergebnisse abbildet.”

    I’ll leave the translation to the German-speaking readers here to attempt.

    What I find appalling is that despite all the alleged savings claimed by the council and Linux advocates, it is clear that Limux project has always been a failed project, i.e. an effort not meeting key adminstrative goals, based on unrealistic expectations and extremely poor management by the City itself and is simply shooting a perpetually moving target that leaves the project itself in the purgatory of incompletion. In the midst of a recession, is this truly something the rest of Europe should follow or even admire? I think not.

  43. oldman says:

    “But let’s not forget the people who champion that enslavement. People like you oldman. I also accuse you of a crime against humanity. You and your Cult of Microsoft buddies. ”

    I see, so now we are going to descend into the stupid, are we? You dont get to make definitions like that withut looking like the biggest asshole going.

    Enslavement? Woash… you are special – no doubt about it!

    You see Mr. K FOSS retards itself. Want to know how, lets take a look at the words of an actual FOSS developer on the subject:

    Now if you’re Richard Stallman — this is your goal — all source code is “liberated”.

    But if you’re a business trying to create value, this is actively harmful. Its almost impossible to build a product around GPLv3 code unless the only way you create value is through selling support. (There are a variety of business reasons this is a bad model… with open code, 3rd parties can start “selling support” for your product, possibly giving your product a bad name, and generally leaching off your engineering effort. In the end, without proprietary code, there is vastly reduced economic incentive to innovate — you can’t use innovation in software to gain a competitive advantage when all software is open. I would argue that even the innovation that occurs in Linux exists largely due to economic pressures arising from attempts to compete against proprietary systems. )

    the full text is at

    http://gdamore.blogspot.com/2012/10/gnu-grep-cautionary-tale-about-gplv3.html

    OF course Mr. D’Amore will get pilloried by the likes of you, but it doesnt matter. The view he espoises then does correlate quite well with the fact that most FOSS never rises above the “good enough” and almost never innovates in a meaning full way.

    You may wish to express yourself on his site as others have done. It should be amusing to watch how long that you last because your bullshit tactics get you bounced.

    If you wish to hasten the world FOSS, go ahead – I really don’t care. I do care about answering the craven mendacious-ness of a proven bully and troll – yourself.

    but only up to a point.

    How’s it going so far? I’m just getting started, how about you?

    Its going just Just fine thank you. Actually I doubt that you actually have that much more that does not boil down to

    You will call me a criminal…

    And I will call you out for the asshole that you are.

    So we shall see how this continues. You will post to try and get a rise out of me. And I will answer if/when I feel like it….

    Have a nice day.

  44. kozmcrae says:

    I’m going to try to address your comment #86 but it’s kind of a jumbled mess.

    “Please Tell me how allowing that you did not personally defend IBM turns into Not talking about atrocities.”

    Are you talking about my warnings about this thread spreading to other blogs? I’m not worried about IBM. That’s history. Anybody can look that up in Wikipedia.

    When I said “Thank you” in regard to the atrocities remark, what I meant was that I wasn’t accusing Microsoft of murder or any of those atrocities when I accused them of a “crime against humanity”. You were acknowledging that. Before that, I was being accused of accusing Microsoft of atrocities.

    “And then attempted to get yourself out of the contradiction by attempting to say that there are different types of “crimes against humanity”

    All I was doing was attempting to clarify what I meant by “crime against humanity”. It’s important that “crime” is singular because at this point I can only think of enslavement as their major crime (if I wrote “crimes” plural it was a slip). Their monopoly is a kind of enslavement. But let’s not forget the people who champion that enslavement. People like you oldman. I also accuse you of a crime against humanity. You and your Cult of Microsoft buddies.

    You can look at the billions of dollars the European Union is saving just by the small number of municipalities and organizations that have migrated over to FLOSS. But you can also look at the vast amount of money that is being wasted by those staying with Microsoft right now. You are advocating for wasting that money. Money that would be better spent on social welfare programs, health care and child welfare programs. It’s not happening like it should oldman because of Microsoft and people like you who invade the Internet with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about FLOSS and retard its acceptance into our society. That’s your crime against humanity. You wear it well.

    How’s it going so far? I’m just getting started, how about you?

  45. oldman says:

    “It wasn’t me, it was you who just admitted that I wasn’t talking about atrocities. Thank you.

    Really? IN Post #64 I said

    Nope I stand corrected. you personally did not defend IBM one whit.

    Please Tell me how allowing that you did not personally defend IBM turns into Not talking about atrocities.

    ANd furthermore #69 you stated…

    But Microsoft has not committed those crimes against humanity.

    And then attempted to get yourself out of the contradiction by attempting to say that there are different types of “crimes against humanity”

    Again, you have said several times that as far as you were concerned Microsoft is guilty of committing crimes against humanity

    Bnd whether you accept delivery or not there is still only one accepted meaning for that phrase – as a description of genocide.

    I said I don’t give a rats ass if you want to go on talking about this nonsense and I meant it.

    Then presumably you wont care about the fact that you come off in this stream as a mendacious jerk, because that is what will go out on the internet.

    But then again, your poisonous self righteous trolling is probably known else-ware already.

    Have a nice day.

  46. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “You think it’d bother me if some other blog picked up on your denying that IBM collaborated with the Nazis in the holocaust?”

    That’s history, an old story. The idea of Microsoft committing a crime against humanity by attempting to digitally enslave us is a new bent on a current theme.

    @ oldman I thought you may laugh. You wrote: “Having admitted that Microsoft has committed no true crimes against humanity…” It wasn’t me, it was you who just admitted that I wasn’t talking about atrocities. Thank you.

    I said I don’t give a rats ass if you want to go on talking about this nonsense and I meant it. It’s just a waste of words on my part and I’m a good typist. And I am quite content to let the discussion go on, and just on these pages too. I will not attempt to spread it elsewhere. Just remember, I warned you. Nothing may come of it. But if it does, you have only your stupid self to blame.

    So what’s up next, IBM killing people in WWII?

  47. Chris Weig wrote, “Perhaps I should forward your mad ideas with regards to IBM/Nazis/Holocaust to some newspapers and Jewish organizations.”

    Ah, good! More page-views… Did you know Israel is quite keen on FLOSS and GNU/Linux? They have their very own GNU/Linux company and distro and TrimSlice comes from there. As early as 2002 a law was proposed to prefer FLOSS in government of Israel. In 2004, the ministry of finance in Israel decided to stop paying “the tax” and contributed to OpenOffice.org. Israel is a hub of FLOSS. IBM is thriving in Israel.“We opened our first office here in 1949. We were the very first multinational company to establish offices in Israel. It was a normal commercial office. We had been invited by the Israeli government to come and help with their first census in Israel. Today we have over 2,000 employees in 14 offices located in several locations.”

    GNU/Linux is one of the few things Israel and Palestinian governments agree upon but they both wanted RMS to speak in their universities and the Palestinians balked at paying for the trip…

  48. oldman says:

    Having admitted that Microsoft has committed no true crimes against humanity, Mr. K. I now tries to move the goal posts. We are told that he is using the phrase “crimes gainst humanity” in a “New Way”

    Here a newsflash Mr. K. There is no new way to define “crimes against humanity” anyplace other than in your mind.

    You dont get to make definitions

    . It may just get wings and take flight over the Internet.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Thats the best laugh I’ve had in a long, long time Mr. K! Are you actually so sure of yourself and your “facts” that you think that its going your way?

    I would suggest that you should be careful what you ask for, you may get it!

  49. Chris Weig says:

    What kind of damage has been done to this blog with all this talk about Microsoft and a crime against humanity? If you keep bringing it up and spraying those words all over these pages, it just may get picked up by some other blog. It may just get wings and take flight over the Internet. Do you want to be responsible for that oldman, Chris Weig or you other Cult of Microsoft members?

    Are you, like, in total denial now? What drugs are you on? You forgot that you brought up crimes against humanity? You think it’d bother me if some other blog picked up on your denying that IBM collaborated with the Nazis in the holocaust?

    But it seems like a good idea. Perhaps I should forward your mad ideas with regards to IBM/Nazis/Holocaust to some newspapers and Jewish organizations.

  50. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “What microsoft did or did not do does not rise to a crime against humanity by anyone definition other than YOURS!”

    The Cult of Microsoft is up in arms. The attacks are vociferous and many. I’m begging to think. They don’t want this “crime against humanity” business to catch on. What if it gets out? What if other blogs pick up on it?

    You know something oldman, and Chris and all you other Cult of Microsoft members. If you were smart, you’d shut the hell up about this right now. Not say another word about it anywhere. Think about it. What do I or Robert have to lose. Our reputation? Really?

    What kind of damage has been done to this blog with all this talk about Microsoft and a crime against humanity? If you keep bringing it up and spraying those words all over these pages, it just may get picked up by some other blog. It may just get wings and take flight over the Internet. Do you want to be responsible for that oldman, Chris Weig or you other Cult of Microsoft members?

    At this point I don’t really give a rats ass. If that’s what you want to talk about, let’s do it. I suspect at some point it’s going to leak out. It has that kind of ring to it.

  51. kozmcrae says:

    It is clear that my use of the phrase “crime against humanity” is in a new way. Not in a clear direct sense to the historical meaning.

    But we live in different times. The original crimes against humanity speak of enslavement. In our times, our digital times, Microsoft has sought to enslave us. To literally lock us in to their system from beginning to end. That is their crime against humanity. If you control our digital lives, you pretty much control the whole thing. That is becoming truer day by day.

    If the writers of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court had known about the Internet and understood it, and had a grasp at how intertwined the digital spectrum was in our lives, they would have instituted safeguards against the enslavement of our digital lives. Microsoft would never have happened. That is your crime against humanity.

  52. Chris Weig says:

    There are many other purposes than dealing with genocide.

    Of course there are. Too bad that the ICC doesn’t agree with you! Just found your own court where you can be judge, jury and executioner.

  53. oldman says:

    oldman, you are deliberately changing the clear meaning of kozmcrae’s words. He was referring to genocide, not other crimes. Don’t do that. That’s clearly dishonest on your part

    I will not be lectured on dishonesty by someone as dishonest as you are about this subject.

    What microsoft did or did not do does not rise to a crime against humanity by anyone definition other than YOURS!

  54. oldman says:

    There are many other purposes than dealing with genocide.

    You have no decency Robert Pogson.

    Sad.

  55. Reading the statute, “For the purpose of this Statute, “crime against humanity” means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack”

    There are many other purposes than dealing with genocide.

    Looking for the closest match: “”Enslavement” means the exercise of any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership over a person and includes the exercise of such power in the course of trafficking in persons, in particular women and children;”

    I can see that covering forcing people to re-re-reboot their PCs, forcing upgrades, forcing use of M$’s OS to do ordinary things on a PC. M$ has done all of these things forcing ordinary people to do things which they did not choose to do and were not compensated for.

    memo, Dan Rosen to Bill G (1995): “Our goals going into the meeting were (in priority order):
    1. Establish Microsoft ownership of the Internet client platform for Win95.
    2. Have Netscape add value to the NT server and Back Office platform (above our stuff), making it the preferred Internet solution.
    3. Have Netscape preferentially support Microsoft authoring tools/solutions and support our viewers
    4. Send a message to the marketplace that Netscape and Microsoft were cooperating on Internet issues.”

    See, by their own words, M$ intended to enslave NetScape. Failing that, they killed Netscape illegally. Everything M$ ever did was along such lines. They intended to enslave all of humanity. M$ had no ordinary business purpose in enslaving Netscape. M$’s business was selling licences for use of their stuff. They did far more than just advertise the product they beat people/businesses senseless to get their way.

  56. Chris Weig says:

    Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, Part 2, Article 7: Crimes against humanity.

    http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Legal+Texts+and+Tools/Official+Journal/Rome+Statute.htm

    Read it. Then do tell us where Microsoft fits in. I’m sure you will conjure up something, even if you need to redefine everything.

  57. Chris Weig says:

    No, Bob, the meaning is far from clear. Because a crime against humanity is something entirely different than when you take the meanings of the words “crime” and “humanity”, and glue them together according to your liking.

    Let me help you out:

    — BEGIN CITE —
    Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, Part 2, Article 7

    For the purpose of this Statute, “crime against humanity” means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

    (a) Murder;
    (b) Extermination;
    (c) Enslavement;
    (d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
    (e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
    (f) Torture;
    (g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
    (h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
    (i) Enforced disappearance of persons;
    (j) The crime of apartheid;
    (k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.
    — END CITE —

    Please do tell use where Microsoft fits in.

  58. Chris Weig wrote, “no other crimes against humanity”

    Nonsense.

    ” Crime – Gross violation of human law, in distinction from a misdemeanor or trespass, or other slight offense. Hence, also, any aggravated offense against morality or the public welfare; any outrage or great wrong.”

    Unfair competition is more than a misdemeanor. It’s not like stealing a cookie. It harms the whole of mankind.

    “Humanity – Mankind collectively; the human race.”

    So the meanings of the words are clear. If you or anyone else gives them a different meaning, that’s your business. I and others can speak our minds. In fact, commercial barriers can be classed as war. e.g. blockades, and embargoes can be considered acts of war. That a company does it instead of a state is neither here nor there. The Digital Divide has been recognized for a long time as a great harm to humanity in large regions of Earth. If you choose to ignore that M$ provides a barrier to less wealthy humans to access IT I don’t care. It’s still the situation that M$ has greatly harmed many millions of people one way or another. Even malware and re-re-reboots have caused enormous harm to people everywhere. They are the reason I switched. I was fortunate to have a choice. Retail consumers have not too often. M$ arranged that. It was their concious act to exclude competing and lower-cost technology from the market.

  59. Chris Weig says:

    Dear Bob, there are no other crimes against humanity. Unless you or kozmcrae show us where and when Microsoft has systematically murdered, looted, raped, done such things to be encountered in a (civil) war zone, there is simply no way for you to justifiably state that Microsoft has committed crimes against humanity.

    I suggest to you again that if you have evidence that Microsoft did those things you should visit the International Court of Justice.

    You have claimed that IBM merely conducted business. Business by which they deliberately and knowingly aided the holocaust. Where and when has Microsoft done something like this? Don’t dance around, answer it!

  60. oldman wrote, “Thank you for admitting the truth – that microsofts busines practices do not consitiute crimes against humanity. That wasnt so hard now was it Mr. K?”

    oldman, you are deliberately changing the clear meaning of kozmcrae’s words. He was referring to genocide, not other crimes. Don’t do that. That’s clearly dishonest on your part.

    kozmcrae wrote, “Chris Weig wrote:

    “Because such things as genocide are crimes against humanity.”

    Yes, such things are Chris. But Microsoft has not committed those crimes against humanity.”

  61. oldman says:

    But Microsoft has not committed those crimes against humanity.

    Thank you for admitting the truth – that microsofts busines practices do not consitiute crimes against humanity. That wasnt so hard now was it Mr. K?

    O BTW all the rest of your screed – totally irrelevant.

  62. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Because such things as genocide are crimes against humanity.”

    Yes, such things are Chris. But Microsoft has not committed those crimes against humanity. Microsoft and you and your fellow Cult of Microsoft members have committed other crimes against humanity.

    You and your fellow members of the Cult of Microsoft are the ones associating crimes against humanity with atrocities and atrocities only. Myself and Robert Pogson to my knowledge are calling the deliberate attacks on FLOSS with the purpose to stop or delay its progress a crime against humanity. A crime against humanity because FLOSS is a gift to all of humanity, like air or water. An attack on FLOSS would be like an attempt to tax all the fresh water in the World.

    You are not alone. And whether you know it or not, you are part of a conspiracy created by Microsoft to destroy FLOSS. This fact is not open for debate. It has been debated and proven too many times before. The reason every day brings a new city, government, or organization migrating to FLOSS is because FLOSS is the World’s IT.

    There seems to be an unspoken belief among the Cult of Microsoft that a win for FLOSS is a blow to Microsoft. There is nothing officially stated, I believe, where that is so. And there are many other very large IT companies that get along just fine with FLOSS so there is nothing in general why Microsoft can’t live with FLOSS. But, where the average person sees a post about a European city migrating to FLOSS, the Cult of Microsoft sees hatred for Microsoft and a direct attack against it. It doesn’t have to be that way Cult of Microsoft but FLOSS advocates can’t change that perception, only you can.

  63. Chris Weig wrote, “show us where some court agrees that Microsoft is, in fact, doing such things.”

    US DOJ v M$, Court’s Findings of Fact:
    “To the detriment of consumers, however, Microsoft has done much more than develop innovative browsing software of commendable quality and offer it bundled with Windows at no additional charge. As has been shown, Microsoft also engaged in a concerted series of actions designed to protect the applications barrier to entry, and hence its monopoly power, from a variety of middleware threats, including Netscape’s Web browser and Sun’s implementation of Java. Many of these actions have harmed consumers in ways that are immediate and easily discernible. They have also caused less direct, but nevertheless serious and far-reaching, consumer harm by distorting competition.”

    Last I checked, consumers were human and M$ has affected more than a billion human beings adversely. Of course the harm to a consumer of a lack of choice is less than killing them but it’s still a denial of freedom and is a crime of enormous magnitude because of the numbers involved. To put it in perspective with numbers, the $ cost of WWII for the USA has been estimated to be $300billion in dollars of the day and $4 trillion in today’s $. M$ rakes in ~$40 billion per annum more or less as a result of monopoly and not ordinary sale of goods. The world spends $8 on IT for every $ spent on M$, so it is a crime of a similar order of magnitude even though the individual costs are much smaller, because of the universality of IT these days. In WWII, much of humanity was not involved. In IT nearly everyone is or soon will be involved.

    If someone figured out how to reduce the human cost of war by a factor of 2-5 just by implementing some technology, it would be adopted instantly. So should FLOSS and GNU/Linux.

  64. Chris Weig says:

    It was, however, the Cult of Microsoft that associated the crimes with genocide and murder and then introduced IBM into the discussion.

    No, you little dumb man.

    It was you.

    Because such things as genocide are crimes against humanity. And now you want to show us where some court agrees that Microsoft is, in fact, doing such things.

    I’m waiting.

  65. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “Nope I stand corrected. you personally did not defend IBM one whit. ” Thank you for being a man.

    “correction:

    However you did express the opinion twice that Microsoft’s business practices rose to the level of crimes against humanity.”

    Yes, with that correction. I wrote that, after I accused Monrol, I believe, but one of the Cult of Microsoft members anyway, of committing crimes against humanity by deliberately attempting to delay the onset of FLOSS.

    It was, however, the Cult of Microsoft that associated the crimes with genocide and murder and then introduced IBM into the discussion. After that thread was finished with much discussion about genocide, Microsoft, atrocities, IBM, murder, Microsoft, holocaust, IBM, FLOSS, Cult of Microsoft and a few other choice words and phrases tossed in, the same discussion popped up in unrelated threads repeatedly. This was a deliberate hijacking (mostly by Ivan) by the Cult of Microsoft of various posts that had nothing to do with the history of IBM or the holocaust or crimes against humanity.

    I don’t believe this little tactic of hijacking the discussions is going to accomplish much. In fact I think it will kind of backfire on you. You might be associating IBM with atrocities committed during WWII, but too much of the discussion on this blog is about Microsoft’s transgressions. People may read what you wrote, that IBM did such-and-such, but they are too used to reading that Microsoft was the one that was caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They may remember something else.

    I don’t know if it’s a good idea to derail the discussion to what IBM did 70 years ago. How many times are you going to get away with that. If you really feel that that needs to be talked about, start a blog about it. That’s what the Internet is all about. Call it IBMDirtyRatBastards.net I checked, it hasn’t been taken. You can have it.

  66. oldman says:

    correction:

    However you did express the opinion twice that Microsoft’s business practices rose to the level of crimes against humanity.

  67. oldman says:

    I already know your answer, you want to be right and not a coward. But you are wrong and a coward. So there’s no need to write anything. I already know where you stand and what the truth is.

    Nope I stand corrected. you personally did not defend IBM one whit.

    However you did express the opinion twice that IBM’s business practices rose top the level of crimes against humanity.

    And that started the ball rolling

    So how about it Mr. K. are you going to admit that such that you statement that microsoft is guilty of crimes against humanity is beyond the pale?

    Have a nice day…

  68. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “But you have spend so much time “defending” both IBM and your rabid insistence…”

    I spent so much time defending IBM? So much time? My, my oldman. You must have been hit over the head with my avalanche of words defending IBM to come up with that statement.

    All I said was this is not about IBM, its about Microsoft. And I wouldn’t even have needed to mention that if it wasn’t brought into the discussion by one of your buddies. So please, show me by direct quote and not one of your stupid self created puting-words-in-my-mouth quotes where I defended IBM. Let me save you some time. I never defended IBM on these pages. I mentioned them once in regards to them and their advertisement for Linux back in the late 1990’s but that’s about it.

    Now, let’s further save some time and words. You can come out right now and say you were wrong about my defending IBM. No ifs, ands or buts. I did not defend IBM and you did not witness me defending IBM as can be seen clear as day by the record of the archive of this blog.

    How about it oldman? Are you going to be a man or a coward?

    I already know your answer, you want to be right and not a coward. But you are wrong and a coward. So there’s no need to write anything. I already know where you stand and what the truth is.

  69. Chris Weig says:

    This blog is about IT and much of it is about Microsoft’s relationship to IT.

    Too stupid for words, kozmcrae!

    This blog was never about IT, it always was and will be about Bob Pogson’s pathological hate for Microsoft. IT is merely the MacGuffin.

    Perhaps you’ve been reading the wrong blog all this time?

  70. oldman says:

    You and your buddies can try your best to make it stick to IBM, but this is about Microsoft, not IBM.

    This is about people who cant tell the difference between their own obsessions and true crimes against humanity. Those people are you Mr. K and the rest of the cult of FOSS on this blog. The linkage with IBM came from the simple reality that they one of the companies that Pog puts on a pedestal had a very real issue with crimes against humanity.

    Had you made this speech up front when this started, the matter might have rested. But you have spend so much time “defending” both IBM and your rabid insistence that one software companies business practices rises to the level of a “crime against humanity” that you have pulled off the amazing feat of turning your selves into a bunch of nazi apologists.

    And You Mr. K have no one to blame but yourself for this mess because you started it

    Of course the answer is simple, you can admit the obvious, that in spite of what you think, that microsofts business practices while odious to you do not rise to the status of a crime against humanity.

    That shouldnt be to hard now should it Mr. K?

  71. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “make that

    If you provide the technology to assist a bunch of maniacs to kill me and 6,000,000 of my fellow “Humans””

    Microsoft has nothing to do with killing 6,000,000 of your fellow “Humans” oldman. This blog is about IT and much of it is about Microsoft’s relationship to IT. Every time you or anyone mentions any of that genocide nonsense, it is associated with Microsoft. You and your buddies can try your best to make it stick to IBM, but this is about Microsoft, not IBM. That’s what the walk-away is. Microsoft-killing-genocide-and-all-that-other-crap.

    It’s the Streisand effect. You should have recognized it by now.

  72. oldman says:

    Then I am sure you’ll be delighted to read this story.

    So presumably IBM the darling of FOSS should also be included in any such banning, eh Pog?

    And of course the German subsidiary of IBM, aka Dehomag (Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Gesellschaft) was following the will of the people as exrtued by the then lawful governmant of germany when they to their proverbial thirty pieces of silver from helping to murder millions of innocent people?

    Right Pog?

  73. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘Anything else subverts democracy or is akin to bribery. Any government intent on preserving law and order in their countries would be justified in banning M$ as an organized criminal gang. The Mafia is organized and global and rich and wear suits but they don’t get invited into the back rooms usually. Neither should M$.’

    Then I am sure you’ll be delighted to read this story.

  74. oldman wrote, “All business’s of any size know that they need to lobby governments to some exent. If a government starts to get hostile, they do have the right to use the local system to protect their interests and the interests of their customers in that country.”

    In law, corporations are “persons” in that they have the right to lawful treatment. They don’t have the right to vote and should not be allowed to dictate to governments. Governments seeking advice or goods and services from businesses should do so openly and not in back-room deals. Anything else subverts democracy or is akin to bribery. Any government intent on preserving law and order in their countries would be justified in banning M$ as an organized criminal gang. The Mafia is organized and global and rich and wear suits but they don’t get invited into the back rooms usually. Neither should M$.

    oldman wrote, “Or do you advocate tyranny against entities that you dont like?”

    The vast majority of governments these days are democratic. They exert the will of their people. Certainly Norway and South Korea and Brazil are not tyrannical.

  75. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    “01 released, 02 transferred, 03 death by natural causes, 04 executed, 05 suicide, 06 gas chamber…” Those were the code on the Hollerith punch cards printed and copyrighted by IBM and used by the Nazis for their “census”.

    Please point out exactly where the button is in Windows 7 for releasing Zyklon B into a room containing 200 people, or I’ll just have to ask you to kindly shut your gob, your pathetic excuse for a human being.

  76. oldman says:

    What business goes around trying to manipulate governments? Businesses are supposed to produce goods and services, not subvert democracy.

    All business’s of any size know that they need to lobby governments to some exent. If a government starts to get hostile, they do have the right to use the local system to protect their interests and the interests of their customers in that country.

    Or do you advocate tyranny against entities that you dont like?

  77. oldman says:

    Making hammers is not assisting murderers..

    Yes, Pog, it is. Let’s leave aside the dubious comparison between “hammers” and “a double-entry book-keeping system.” Let’s agree that either one is a tool, and either tool can be used for more beneficial purposes.

    That, Pog, is the whole point.

    Dehomag didn’t design general-purpose hammers. They didn’t even design general-purpose census technology.

    They specifically designed a system based on Hollerith cards that had no other purpose than to assist with mass extermination.

    That there is the nub.

  78. Chris Weig wrote, “tell the International Court of Justice how Microsoft is committing crimes against humanity”.

    The definition of Crimes Against Humanity includes not only killing but, “persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated”

    Microsoft has certainly been involved in political persecution on a grand scale as when they threatened whole countries with consequences (actions by M$) for failing to do M$’s bidding.

    • Norway – OOXML adoption – the back rooms – the coercion
    • Korea – Anti-trust
    • Brazil“In January 2005, Bill Gates unsuccessfully sought a private meeting with President Lula at the World Economic Forum in Davos. As it does in other developing countries where it has faced an open-source challenge, Microsoft donates software to Brazilian non-profit organisations and schools. It has sought to discredit open source software in a number of ways; likening its challenge to the proprietary model to communism and suggesting its openness means it is insecure and unreliable. Microsoft launched a strippeddown, cheaper version of Windows XP in Brazil and a new credit deal for companies investing in Windows software, in partnership with Bradesco Bank. In a more bullish moment, Microsoft attempted to sue Sérgio Amadeu in June 2004, after he had compared the company’s policy of donating licences and software with the actions of a drug dealer encouraging addiction and dependency in their clients. A petition supporting him raised 10,000 signatures in three weeks and Microsoft backed dropped the case. “

    What business goes around trying to manipulate governments? Businesses are supposed to produce goods and services, not subvert democracy.

  79. Chris Weig says:

    IBM has nothing to do with WWII. They are a global US company doing great things in IT. They did business with Germany before the war just like hundreds of other businesses. They are no more culpable than M$ for supplying tyrants with an OS. You think hit-lists weren’t drawn up using that other OS in Rwanda, Libya, Angola, Cambodia, Russia and other places where tyrants used force to stay in power? Look at Al Qaeda. Think they don’t use M$’s OS in their schemes? Has M$ culpability for the mis-use/abuse of technology? No. Making hammers is not assisting murderers.

    Quite an interesting dilemma, you’re in here, Bob.

    You’re reverse defense strategy now consists of insinuating that Microsoft is just as guilty of crimes which are carried out — indirectly — by using their software.

    There’s only one little problem:

    Microsoft’s software is a commodity sold in retail, IBM’s technology was not!

    Wouldn’t you say that there’s a difference between IBM not only providing but setting up and operating said technology for the Nazis and some store selling Microsoft’s software?

    If you believe that there is, in fact, no difference then you’re out of your mind.

    Here’s another interesting dilemma for you: Linux is also used in weapons, Linux is also used in surveillance software, Linux is used for all kinds of purposes which do not serve humanitarian interests. So let me ask you, Master Bob:

    Why is there no provision in the GPL against such things?

  80. oldman says:

    make that

    If you provide the technology to assist a bunch of maniacs to kill me and 6,000,000 of my fellow “Humans”

  81. oldman says:

    IBM has nothing to do with WWII.

    If you prick my finger, do I not bleed?

    If you f-cking gas me, do I not choke to death?

    If you send me a “Dear John” letter, am I not harmed?

    If you provide the technology to allow a bunch of maniacs to kill me and 6,000,000 of my fellow “Humans”

    Am I not harmed?

    Idiot.

  82. oldman wrote, “being a Nazi apologist”, about me.

    I lived through my father’s nightmares for more than a decade after WWII. He told me what the Nazis did and how their “special forces”, the SS, were often killed because it was too risky to capture them. I’ve read and seen the pictures of Hitler’s handiwork. Hinting that I am a Nazi apologist is crazy, oldman. Wake up. I have criticized governments who coddled the Nazis before the war and my father criticized the Allied officers who conducted the war in an amateurish manner. The Nazis were scum causing the deaths of tens of millions of people for no good reason. Does that sound like sympathy to you?

    IBM has nothing to do with WWII. They are a global US company doing great things in IT. They did business with Germany before the war just like hundreds of other businesses. They are no more culpable than M$ for supplying tyrants with an OS. You think hit-lists weren’t drawn up using that other OS in Rwanda, Libya, Angola, Cambodia, Russia and other places where tyrants used force to stay in power? Look at Al Qaeda. Think they don’t use M$’s OS in their schemes? Has M$ culpability for the mis-use/abuse of technology? No. Making hammers is not assisting murderers.

  83. oldman says:

    Accuse them of retarding the uptake of FLOSS and they associate themselves with murderers.

    No Mr. K. you started this little donnybrook with you accusation that as far as you were concerned Microsoft committed crimes against humanity.

    You used the phrase and open the door, and then Pog the Hamster and you took turns defending that linkage by defending the indefensible actions of IBM to the point that you all now look like Nazi apologists.

    Congratulations you disgusting asshole.

    You earned it..

    And you deserve it.

  84. oldman says:

    US DOJ v M$, Court’s Findings of Fact:…

    Are the opinion of a judge whose rulings were overturned. The case was settled, and NONE of the subsidiary cases went anywhere – There was no conviction Robert Pogson, and the whole affair is now over a decade done and over with. Nobody gives other than you and microsoft haters give crap about it anymore.

    But even if they did, it is extremely doubtful that any normal personal is going to greet the notion that Microsoft committed crimes against humanity with their software as the equivalent of the true crimes against humanity that have been in contention and wrongheaded at best downright crazy and disgusting at worst.

    You can tell scream deny and even ban us all, but it will change nothing – you will still have acquired the stench of being a Nazi apologist and even succeeded in smearing your fathers memory with your (He had great respect for the men he fought), all because you insist on applying the notion of “crimes against humanity” to a debate about software.

    You are pathetic.

  85. Chris Weig says:

    Kozmcrae, get your finger out of your ass and tell the International Court of Justice how Microsoft is committing crimes against humanity. I suggested this to you a long time ago, but there you are, still sitting on your ass, lost in your pathetic delusions.

  86. kozmcrae says:

    The Cult of Microsoft has a persecution complex a mile wide. Accuse them of retarding the uptake of FLOSS and they associate themselves with murderers. Gee fellas, do you really have to go to such extremes to differentiate yourselves from other bad guys? Every time Microsoft’s crimes of the past and present are brought up now, genocide is also mentioned. Has anybody else noticed that?

    To the Cult of Microsoft, you may want to think about disassociating the two.

  87. oldman wrote, “NOBODY outside you fellow Microsoft haters is going to accept your reasoning as anything other a steaming load of bullshit.”

    US DOJ v M$, Court’s Findings of Fact:
    “it harmed those Windows 98 consumers who nevertheless used Navigator. In particular, Microsoft exposed those using Navigator on Windows 98 to security and privacy risks that are specific to Internet Explorer and to ActiveX controls

    Microsoft has harmed even those consumers who desire to use Internet Explorer, and no other browser, with Windows 98. To the extent that browsing-specific routines have been commingled with operating system routines to a greater degree than is necessary to provide any consumer benefit, Microsoft has unjustifiably jeopardized the stability and security of the operating system.

    Microsoft would not have imposed prohibitions that burdened OEMs and consumers with substantial costs, lowered the value of Windows, and harmed the company’s relations with major OEMs had it not felt that the measures were necessary to maximize Internet Explorer’s share of browser usage at Navigator’s expense.

    To the detriment of consumers, however, Microsoft has done much more than develop innovative browsing software of commendable quality and offer it bundled with Windows at no additional charge. As has been shown, Microsoft also engaged in a concerted series of actions designed to protect the applications barrier to entry, and hence its monopoly power, from a variety of middleware threats, including Netscape’s Web browser and Sun’s implementation of Java. Many of these actions have harmed consumers in ways that are immediate and easily discernible. They have also caused less direct, but nevertheless serious and far-reaching, consumer harm by distorting competition.

    Many of the tactics that Microsoft has employed have also harmed consumers indirectly by unjustifiably distorting competition. The actions that Microsoft took against Navigator hobbled a form of innovation that had shown the potential to depress the applications barrier to entry sufficiently to enable other firms to compete effectively against Microsoft in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. That competition would have conduced to consumer choice and nurtured innovation. The campaign against Navigator also retarded widespread acceptance of Sun’s Java implementation.”

    One may think that M$ harming one consumer’s choices in the market is a small thing but M$ put that crap on more than 1000 million PCs affecting, perhaps, billions of people directly or indirectly. Numbers cannot describe the harm done by M$.

  88. oldman says:

    All that delays the onset of FLOSS. That brings harm to the World. That is a crime against the World. Humans occupy the World, so you’ve committed a crime against humanity. If you want to associate your crimes with the most horrid crimes done against humanity, that’s you choice, not mine.

    Get off your moral hobby horse jack.

    The only harm here is the harm you do to the truth trying to equate a business success with genocide. You are not just an asshole you are a disgusting asshole.

    NOBODY outside you fellow Microsoft haters is going to accept your reasoning as anything other a steaming load of bullshit.

  89. Chris Weig says:

    Did IBM have a choice? This is a legal question every person attacking avoids answering. The choice question defines if they are guilty or not.

    Yes, they did have a choice. That something is supposedly without alternative is nice double speak for “we couldn’t be bothered to do anything else”.

    Ever noticed how so many things you do every day are not without alternative but that you have a choice to do something else?

    Everyone has a choice. The fact that every action has specific consequences, and that some consequences may be preferable to others, does not eliminate choice.

    For example, even if someone grew up in an environment that encouraged hating blacks, and then one day this person decides to go lynch a black man, even then this person had a choice not to do it, although from a psychological and sociological perspective the odds were against this person not doing it.

    Not having a choice is an excuse constructed after the fact, when one has to justify his actions.

  90. Chris Weig wrote, “Face the music and dance, Bob! Microsoft is on top today because people willingly and consciously bought their software. Not because they were forced to.”

    US DOJ v M$, District Court’s Finding of Fact: HP to M$:”If we had a choice of another supplier, based on your actions in this area, I assure you [that you] would not be our supplier of choice.”

  91. TEG wrote, “you are simply refusing the reality that the market overall has consciously rejected Linux as a preferred operating system of choice “.

    No, it is you who is refusing to accept reality. People, given the choice, do choose GNU/Linux. The “choice” you seem to accept as reality is OEMs and retailers choosing that other OS, bundling it and only making that offer, thus denying choice. That’s not reality. That’s a crime. Where the choice is offered, people take it: Munich, India, Brazil, Russia, China, Cuba, Kenya, Malaysia, etc. Ubuntu will be on 5% of shipping x86 PCs next year, according to Canonical, thanks to Dell which ships 11% of the world’s x86 PCs and other OEMs. Ubuntu, unlike most other distros actually has salesmen and channels thanks to Canonical. Other distros which have channels include Linpus, Suse and RedHat. They all do their part and are thriving. Linpus Technologies is huge in China, which is sufficient market for anyone, but it recently had a go with expansion outside China. Linpus pushes MeeGo as well as solutions for x86 and ARM. They have 200 employees and are of the same order of magnitude as Canonical, just not as widely spread.

    People are choosing */Linux globally. Android/Linux is available on retail shelves everywhere and GNU/Linux is available on retail shelves in many countries and in schools and government offices. Choices have been made and by far most are satisfied with the choice they’ve made. Conversely, consumers going into BestBuy are not choosing an OS as much as they are buying a PC which has that other OS bundled.

  92. oldman says:

    Did IBM have a choice? This is a legal question every person attacking avoids answering. The choice question defines if they are guilty or not…

    This is a load of crap hammie. The facts remain what they are. If you are so sure that IBM can be expnerated, then go to it, Otherwise save your arm chair legal bullshit for elsewhere.

  93. oiaohm says:

    Ivan yet what you are doing is a lynching. A lynching is convicting someone without valid trial. This is what most of the articals about IBM involvement are.

    Did IBM have a choice? This is a legal question every person attacking avoids answering. The choice question defines if they are guilty or not.

    Ivan you have to remember Nazis ceased houses and businesses of anyone they accused of supporting the jews. So what IBM should have refused had there hardware and tech ceased and it used anyhow.

    Profiting by demanding payment after the war for access to the records around the final solution that has some grounds. But then that also raised the question if anyone should have the legal right to charge you to access your documents.

    Both we really do need proper answers to.

    Ivan basically why should we be lynching IBM when there is not a valid case todo so.

    Really the second offence is more important than the first. You cannot bring back the dead. The second offence effects the current living. Usa there is no right that says you have to be able to read your own produced information without having to pay someone.

  94. Ivan says:

    Look you bigoted jackass, none of the examples you gave were lynchings and none of that excuses IBM profiting from the streamlining of the final solution.

  95. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘They certainly are, holding back emerging economies from modern IT by imposing “the tax”, giving the whole world a huge dose of malware, re-re-rebooting all of our computers and getting exclusive access to retail shelves which puts a damper on innovation in IT globally.’

    Again, you are simply refusing the reality that the market overall has consciously rejected Linux as a preferred operating system of choice and instead resorting to the same old tactic of reciting all the problems about Windows that can mostly be attributed to your stubborn refusal to use it any more properly than mindlessly thrashing it around. There is nothing exciting about being such a one-trick pony, you know.

  96. Chris Weig says:

    They certainly are, holding back emerging economies from modern IT by imposing “the tax”, giving the whole world a huge dose of malware, re-re-rebooting all of our computers and getting exclusive access to retail shelves which puts a damper on innovation in IT globally. It is a crime what they do and it’s about time it ended.

    What a cheap shot, Bob. First of all, kozcmrae wrote about Microsoft committing crimes against humanity, not me.

    Second, do you believe in the story some Germans (and Austrians), who are very much in denial about the past, like to tell themselves? That bad Adolf Hitler seduced us (I’m not old enough to have lived during WW2, but I’m old enough to have seen Nazis become someone (in politics, in business, in science) in post-war Germany, and nobody giving a crap) innocent Germans? Well, I don’t know if you believe in this fairytale, but to me it seems like you could believe in it. Because you obviously believe that bad Microsoft seduced and seduces people all over the world to use their terrible software, and thus establish their “reign of terror”.

    Face the music and dance, Bob! Microsoft is on top today because people willingly and consciously bought their software. Not because they were forced to.

    Your pathological hate once again has eradicated your capability to think.

  97. Chris Weig wrote, “Microsoft is committing crimes against humanity”.

    They certainly are, holding back emerging economies from modern IT by imposing “the tax”, giving the whole world a huge dose of malware, re-re-rebooting all of our computers and getting exclusive access to retail shelves which puts a damper on innovation in IT globally. It is a crime what they do and it’s about time it ended.

  98. Ivan wrote, “Bullshit, they were lynched in the backwoods in the middle of the night from the nearest tree, never in the streets, never in broad daylight”

    So, there is no limit to barbarity and it does not follow rules.

  99. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Your pal, kozmcrae, wanted to persuade us that Microsoft is committing crimes against humanity.”

    As usual Chris gets it all assbackwards. No, Chris it wasn’t originally Microsoft I was accusing of committing a crime against humanity, it was you, you and your Cult of Microsoft buddies. Microsoft is bad for the World. The World it doing is best to get on without Microsoft but people like you and your Cult of Microsoft friends are doing your best to discriminate against FLOSS. Promoting uncertainty about it. Associating people who advocate for FLOSS with undesirables.

    All that delays the onset of FLOSS. That brings harm to the World. That is a crime against the World. Humans occupy the World, so you’ve committed a crime against humanity. If you want to associate your crimes with the most horrid crimes done against humanity, that’s you choice, not mine.

  100. That Exploit Guy says:

    ‘Who are they to keep emerging nations from using IT because the price is doubled by M$’s tax?’

    The sales tactics of IBM has defined the contemporary meaning of “FUD”. You obviously don’t care.

    The Chinese government has a stranglehold on the supply of rare-earth metals, which are vital for manufacturing of IT equipment. You don’t seem to care about that, either.

    On the other hand, you are throwing your dummy out of the pram for the reality that a market as a whole has consciously rejected your favourite operating system of choice despite all the attempts from lawmakers in the EU as well as the US in the last decade to reshape it.

    How am I supposed to take your argument seriously, Mr. Pogson?

    [1] See also here.

  101. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘A minor anti-trust violation that taxes the world is not minor; it is major. There should be a special place in Hell for the likes of Bill and Steve.’

    Really? What place should IBM be according to your ever-so-defined moral compass, then?

    Look – IBM is even treating its own employees SO well that they even have an entire website dedicated to its deeds.

    And before you start spewing more ignorant remarks, this page is from way before the GFC. Notice the pay rise percentage for the upper management noted at the top and the string of very, very happy comments that follows. [1]

  102. Ivan says:

    I’d respect you more if you just admitted you were an antisemite.

  103. My father had nothing but contempt for the high and mighty but he did his duty. He had great respect for the men he fought.

    A minor anti-trust violation that taxes the world is not minor; it is major. There should be a special place in Hell for the likes of Bill and Steve. Who are they to keep emerging nations from using IT because the price is doubled by M$’s tax? Who are they to endanger the privacy, security and economy of the world because they did nothing about security for decades?

  104. oldman says:

    Robert Pogson

    You dishonor the memory of your father who I believe you stated fought against the Third Reich not to mention all those Canadians who fought and died, All becasue you support a views of people who are so caught up in their petty modern vendettas that they cant tell the difference between a minor anti trust violation and full scale genocide.

    Sad.

  105. Ivan says:

    In my lifetime blacks were lynched in the streets and worse in USA…

    Bullshit, they were lynched in the backwoods in the middle of the night from the nearest tree, never in the streets, never in broad daylight, and unlike IBM and yourself, the US government has apologized for not prosecuting those responsible for the lynchings.

    Also, the US DOJ is actively working on prosecuting the surviving bastards, unlike a certain man in Winnipeg that is unwilling to admit that he supports a company that profited from the genocidal actions of the Third Reich on the sole basis that they use open source software.

  106. Chris Weig says:

    I AM SAYING THAT THAT’S NOT WHAT THIS BLOG IS ABOUT. IF YOU WANT TO BELABOUR IBM ABOUT ANCIENT HISTORY, DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE!

    You don’t need to shout, Bob. Why so angry? Don’t you remember? Your pal, kozmcrae, wanted to persuade us that Microsoft is committing crimes against humanity. Except they don’t. Yet you absolved IBM of their sins quickly, thanks to them doing the “right thing” today (which, naturally, involves Linux), making their DELIBERATE involvement in the holocaust merely a trifling matter of no consequence.

    You’re a fine man, Bob.

  107. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘I AM SAYING THAT THAT’S NOT WHAT THIS BLOG IS ABOUT. IF YOU WANT TO BELABOUR IBM ABOUT ANCIENT HISTORY, DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! NO ONE WORKING AT IBM WAS EVEN ALIVE THEN. IBM IS GLOBAL WITH 350K EMPLOYEES. NONE OF THEM HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WWII.’

    Would anyone from when IBM used FUD against its business rivals still be in the company’s ranks, then?

    If you need to look up TMR’s website and go through numerous dead-end arguments, such as the US census, before arriving at the above comeback, then clearly you don’t have any guiding principle to decide what’s right and what’s wrong in your mind. I’ll even go as far as to saying that, to you, everything is negotiable so as long as it’s not associated with the name that starts wih “M” and ends with “icrosoft”. Trust me – I have been through this phase before, but at least I had the excuse of being young and stupid. What’s yours?

  108. TEG wrote, “What you are effectively saying is, “So what if the Nazis killed six million Jews?””

    No, I am not. You are saying that that’s what I am saying.

    I AM SAYING THAT THAT’S NOT WHAT THIS BLOG IS ABOUT. IF YOU WANT TO BELABOUR IBM ABOUT ANCIENT HISTORY, DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! NO ONE WORKING AT IBM WAS EVEN ALIVE THEN. IBM IS GLOBAL WITH 350K EMPLOYEES. NONE OF THEM HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WWII.

  109. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    I forgot to give this gem a little highlight, didn’t I?

    ‘In my lifetime blacks were lynched in the streets and worse in USA…’

    Yes, we all know about KKK. So what? Two wrongs don’t make a right, and this attempt of yours to justify your already distasteful argument with an even more distasteful comeback is simply in every way reprehensible. What you are effectively saying is, “So what if the Nazis killed six million Jews?”

    Perhaps in your eyes the Holocaust was something to be rationalised so as long as it didn’t involve Microsoft, the Nazis did nothing wrong so as long as they weren’t headed by Steve Ballmer, and the KKK could lynch whomever with a skin color they didn’t like so as long as they weren’t installing Windows on their computers.

    Perhaps you are just desperate to save your own face.

    Perhaps this is just the steaming result of your brain taking a dump.

    Whichever the case, you are earning yourself and whoever supports you on this particular matter nothing but contempt.

  110. That Exploit Guy says:

    I didn’t provide a reference for the punch card numbers, did I?

    Well, here it is.

  111. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘IBM is working hard in Africa bringing modern IT to developing nations.’

    Bill Gates donates billions of dollars to developing nations to buy vaccines and mosquito nets as well. Again, so what? Every dollar he gives away is just another dollar he doesn’t need to hand over to the IRS. The same goes for IBM.

    ‘IBM shares that belief and they are good at what they do.’

    You do know that the contemporary definition of “FUD” – “fear, uncertainty and doubt” – is originated from IBM sales tactics, right?

    What do you think is the incentive to for IBM to give things away in such places if it’s not for the very purpose of dominating the public sector with their highly proprietary hardware? Of course, in mrpogson.com, we are supposed to believe that every multi-national megacorp is innocent and virtuous unless it’s Microsoft, aren’t we?

  112. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Chris Weig

    ‘Yes, and there is considerable debate if using a category like “race” in the census is in itself responsible for reproducing racism.’

    You see, Mr. Pogson was using what I tend to call the “racism-was-the-norm-back-then” excuse.

    “01 released, 02 transferred, 03 death by natural causes, 04 executed, 05 suicide, 06 gas chamber…”

    I wonder what kind of census would include “gas chamber” as an item.

  113. Joey Gladstone wrote, “What’s with all the running to IBM’s defense, anyway? “

    IBM does not need defending. They are an upstanding technology company respected world-wide. I despise people using my blog as a platform to criticise their social responsibility. IBM is working hard in Africa bringing modern IT to developing nations. They are not sticking around in the air-conditioned offices in the capitals either. They are going out into the bush to small communities helping to set up schools and government offices. I value IT and what it can do for people. IBM shares that belief and they are good at what they do.

  114. In my lifetime blacks were lynched in the streets and worse in USA…

  115. Chris Weig says:

    The US census tracks race and language…

    Yes, and there is considerable debate if using a category like “race” in the census is in itself responsible for reproducing racism.

  116. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘The US census tracks race and language… They even get people to register as supporters of one party or the other… Could be a prelude to eugenics.’

    Really?

    Auschwitz-Birkenau, Buchenwald, Dachau were all concentration camps where people were forced to work until they died from exhausion.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses, homosexuals, Jews, Gypsies were all minorities openly marginalised and persecuted by the Nazis. The Nuremberg Laws were just one of the many things that Hitler wasn’t even trying to hide.

    IBM PR department is calling – they are looking for you as their spokesperson.

  117. Joey Gladstone says:

    “The question is improper. There’s murder and there’s accounting for a census, two different things.”

    Seriously Pogs, the census was conducted for the sole purpose of weeding out undesirables to genocide away, this is well documented.

    It was used to determine lineage, which is also well documented.

    The whole western corporate world was boycotting the Third Reich at that point, Except IBM. IBM kept providing Hollerith machines to Nazi Germany via their German subsidiary. This is also documented.

    Even through the war, IBM continued to supply equipment via their German subsidiary. Every single one of the Reich’s ~70 concentration camps had a Hollerith department, courtessy of IBM. Yes, also documented.

    Reich officials had claimed that their mass extermination initiative would have been nowhere even remotely near as efficient were it not for IBM, you guessed it, documented.

    There’s mass murder, and there’s assisting in mass murder. There’s providing the tools to commit mass murder, knowing what the tools would be used for. They’re not as different as you seem to want to pretend.

    What’s with all the running to IBM’s defense, anyway? I get it, they use Linux to sell expensive proprietary hardware, and eventually upsell to z/OS and AIX, which makes some Linux advocates well their panties, but is Linux really so important to you as to not only turn a blind eye to their involvement in one of the worst atrocities in recorded history, but actually… Defend them?

    You do yourself and your communities no favours by taking this stance.

    No Nazi sympathizers here? Only people who sympathize with Nazi sympathizers, then?

  118. The US census tracks race and language… They even get people to register as supporters of one party or the other… Could be a prelude to eugenics.

  119. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘The question is improper. There’s murder and there’s accounting for a census, two different things. Are you going to convict the miners or tailors who equipped the Reich?’

    Oh, really?

    1) IBM was responsible for designing and printing the punch cards used for the Hollerith and was ready to sue anyone attempting to produce compatible products. (What were the odds that IBM wanted monopoly even on genocide?)
    2) As mentioned before, even a little girl hiding in an attic in Amsterdam heard from the BBC about the genocidal campaign operated by the Nazis. There was no excuse for the CEO of a multi-national corporation to not notice such a diabolical event.
    3) Ever heard of the Nuremberg Laws? They were enacted in 1935 to strip the Jewish population of their properties and rights as citizens.
    4) “001 Auschwitz-Birkenau, 002 Buchenwald, 003 Dachau…” What do you think these locations were? Chuck E. Cheese’s?
    5) “02 Jehovah’s Witness… 06 homosexual… 08 Jew… 12 Gypsy…” That’s quite an interesting census the Nazis were taking, wasn’t it?

    Your remarks on this part of modern history are not just ignorant but also disgusting and downright disgraceful. You are virtually trying to trivialise the death of millions of people to justify your lack of a moral compass. How could you possibly sleep at night having said what you have said here?

    ‘Go somewhere else. We don’t need trolls here.’

    Mr. Pogson is using the word “troll” again as a pathetic excuse to silence dissenters while using even more pathetic excuses to justify his own ignorant behaviours and get himself out of an embarrassing situation. How predictable!

    Maybe you should consider a career opportunity at IBM?

  120. Chris Weig, admitting to being a troll, wrote, “I don’t know what you think you accomplish by posting in German.

    Good. Then I’ve already accomplished it.”

    Go somewhere else. We don’t need trolls here.

  121. Ivan wrote, “So you admit IBM should pay reparations to the families of victims they helped murder?”

    The question is improper. There’s murder and there’s accounting for a census, two different things. Are you going to convict the miners or tailors who equipped the Reich?

  122. oiaohm says:

    Ivan –So you admit IBM should pay reparations to the families of victims they helped murder?–
    The problem here IBM has. Just not with a admission of guilt because they did not do it by there own free will.

    –The action, however, threatens to jeopardise an existing £3.3 billion deal to compensate slave labourers from the Nazi era, according to warnings from Germany.–

    Yes end of world war II IBM put up a £3.3 billion fund to pay reparations.

    Now the issue is not that IBM did not pay. Is that IBM still wants payment for using the records in the punch card system that would make finding those due the money simpler. Evil of vendor lock in. To pay out the fund IBM wants a 1 million dollar in license payments for software rights.

    Chris Weig Yes all along there as been a valid attack against IBM that does hold up. Its not the claim of willing working with the Nazi’s or the lack of payment. Making matters worse after the fact they can avoid.

    Yes Nazi + IBM is an example why we need open formats for government data.

  123. Ivan says:

    I don’t think there are any Nazi sympathizers here.

    So you admit IBM should pay reparations to the families of victims they helped murder?

  124. Chris Weig says:

    I don’t know what you think you accomplish by posting in German.

    Good. Then I’ve already accomplished it.

  125. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Warum? Ich mache mich nie über Minderbemittelte lustig. Anders als — indirekt — manche Nazi-Sympathisanten hier.”

    I don’t know what you think you accomplish by posting in German. Do you think it’s cute? I guess I must have used up all your other ruses. I forgot about posting in another language.

  126. I don’t think there are any Nazi sympathizers here.

  127. Chris Weig says:

    You know dougman, the Cult of Microsoft will show up and tell you why you haven’t been doing precisely what you’ve been doing for years because you simply can’t do that with Linux… or some such lame reason.

    Warum? Ich mache mich nie über Minderbemittelte lustig. Anders als — indirekt — manche Nazi-Sympathisanten hier.

  128. kozmcrae says:

    You know dougman, the Cult of Microsoft will show up and tell you why you haven’t been doing precisely what you’ve been doing for years because you simply can’t do that with Linux… or some such lame reason. They can’t live with GNU/Linux success. They have to shout it down no matter how they have to twist their logic to do it.

    Now they will take my own words and use them against me because they lack creativity and/or because they are simply running out of legs to stand on. They have no good arguments to back them up so they repeat the words used against them with key changes.

    You are so predictable Cult of Microsoft.

    “You are so predictable…” Go on, you can’t help yourselves.

  129. dougman wrote, “I always laugh when Admins say to me, “If you are in business, you gotta have the Windows” or “Windows is the only solution for enterprise””

    Oh… I have met a few of those in person and a few here electronically. It’s nonsense of course. Most GNU/Linux systems are pretty easy to install and then you can forget about them. They just keep on working.

    I remember one place I worked. First day on the job and the boss gave me a guided tour. I went around the computer lab noting what was there and chatted about my use of GNU/Linux with the teacher. He solemnly told me that his lab was solid because he never changed anything… That was ~2003 just when the malware epidemics were exploding. His print server began to crash shortly.

    Dave Richards in Largo FL gets visitors from all over and he compares notes. He can run much more IT for the money than folks running that other OS. Here’s an image of his servers running 220 users, 8K tasks in 64gB with load average ~1. One person can oversee a bunch of servers like that and the thin clients are as reliable as dial-telephones. I’d say a fellow running GNU/Linux has 1/220 of the problems he would have with that other OS. Typically an organization can cut the body count by a factor of 3 to 5 or increase the number of seats similarly without increasing staff.

  130. dougman says:

    Yes, what business wouldn’t love an extra $275K a year, that could be used in other departments, say like R&D.

    My best client has been able to reduce support and maintenance costs by over 85% in the last two years; 80% of that reduction occurred in the first three months after switching to Linux. Support has gone from being a regular headache for management to something that is taken as much for granted as power and air conditioning… because it’s now just about that reliable in their experience.

    I always laugh when Admins say to me, “If you are in business, you gotta have the Windows” or “Windows is the only solution for enterprise”

    I typically respond with: “Do you use Google” “Whats that phone beside you, is that Android?” “Have you ever purchased anything from Amazon?” “Gone shopping at Lowes? “Flown in the U.S.?” “Traded any stocks on your 401k?” “When’s the last time you used Facebook, Instagram or Wikiepedia?”

    All those systems use LINUX.

    I still remember once incident whereby the owner of the company got visibly mad at his IT guru after I demo’d, and explained to him what Linux was all about. He felt that his admin dude, was ripping him off and rightly so. LOL…..

    I typically convert one person a month over to Linux, been doing it for years. Linux karma is a good thing. 🙂

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