Governments Cutting the Chains of Lock-in

“Germany should have a policy to increase the use of free software by public administrations. Citizens should not be forced to buy specific software for interacting with their public administration, says Hofmann. The latter is “one of the fundamental reasons that Munich started using free software.”

The biggest interoperability problem is caused by different document formats, Hofmann testified. He explained that the vast majority of Germany’s public administrations continue to exchange documents formatted in proprietary formats. A national guideline recommends the use of the vendor-independent Open Document Format, but this policy fails because ODF is not enforced, Hofmann said.”

see 'Move to open source not feasible without political support' | Joinup.

The other chain that binds is the habit of buying Wintel…

“A Polish civil IT procurement watchdog has filed legal objections to a procurement notice published by the Polish Ministry of Regional Development. In August the ministry posted a request for licences for a specific proprietary computer operating system. European procurement rules forbid requesting specific brands or products.”

see Civil watchdog objects to tender published by Polish ministry.

The world does not owe M$ and its “partners” a living. Governments should procure and use software that works for them and the best interests of their people. With governments struggling to balance budgets, it should be obvious to all that throwing money away on unneeded software licences is wrong. Why pay M$ for permission to operate Europe’s computers? It should be obvious that open standards, not standards designed to protect monopolies, are the right way to do IT. Claiming that monopoly is a standard does not fly in the 21st century.

I recommend Debian GNU/Linux. There is so much software in their repository that if it’s not in there you probably don’t need it. If you do need something not in there it’s probably less costly for all the governments to get together and write it themselves than pay M$ and “partners” to do it. Make sure it is a web application so that lock-in keeps getting harder to achieve. Many governments are larger and better funded than M$ and have no need that their IT assets be held hostage. Joinup is a European organization dedicated to sharing such products. It’s working.

Look how many €millions Munich is ahead having done the hard work. If all the governments in Europe had done the same, the savings would have been €billions by now. It’s never too late to start and sooner is better than later. Governments are leaders in their societies as well so the benefits governments receive from FLOSS will benefit citizens multiple ways. While they are fixing their own IT they should ensure that retail shelves open up for FLOSS. Governments should not allow monopoly to exclude FLOSS from consumers PCs.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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131 Responses to Governments Cutting the Chains of Lock-in

  1. oldman says:

    LibreOffice and M$’s office suite – the last time I used M$’s office suite regularly it was certainly no better than OpenOffice.org around the same time. LiberOffice is far superior to that so I believe LibreOffice should be still very competitive.

    The features that I rely on and which are missing is LiebermanOffice are in versions after office 2007. I also seriously doubt that you ever used MS access because there is no way you would even presume to call the crap that is part of the current LiebermanOffice as competetive.

    GNU/Linux and that other OS – M$ is definitely preferred by malware. That’s sufficient reason to choose GNU/Linux instead.

    Nope malware can and is remediated against all the time Pog. The value brought by using commercial software and even some FOSS on windows is found too great by most to ignore.

    I use all kinds of more geeky tools and FLOSS rocks. I suppose some of them are available with the non-FREE OS but why bother? That other OS is nothing but a bother to me.

    I use even more geeky tools on windows Pog, and guess what?… a lot of them are free. Can you spin up multiple instances of virtual machines each with different CPU count, memorysize and disk size? I can using Powershell/PowerCLI both of which are free, and I can debug my scripts in full source with hinting using PowerGui – again a free tool.

    THis is just ONE example what I have.

    VLC and M$’s media player – VLC has had hundreds of millions of downloads mostly by people who had M$’s offering for no extra charge bundled with PCs, so VLC is quite competitive. I use it a fair amound but I am not into video that much. I am grooving to CBC music from Chrome Browser as I type…

    Who cares? I use iTunes to manage all of my mp3’s with a little help from fubar 2000 and a collection of free conversion applets… AND I have access online stores that I do business with.

    So, 100% of the kinds of software I use often are popular and better as FLOSS than what oldman proposes. I think he’s nuts.

    I think that that statement is a fact not in evidence, that Robert Pogson is an ignorant narrow fool.

  2. Chris Weig wrote, “the same old names. Firefox, VLC, LibreOffice, Apache… Yawn!”

    Oh, you want a different set? How about Gimp, Audacity, Dia, Blender, InkScape, and many many more? A large organization may have hundreds of applications but each individual needs only a few. GNU/Linux has the few covered many times over. The individual applications are pretty decent too but of course I use them less often. I use ffmpeg for multimedia, Sox for sound, mplayer for video, ImageMagick for images etc. Those are all solid and give up nothing to non-FREE software for ordinary users.

  3. Chris Weig says:

    If you look at popular, widely-used, mature FLOSS software you see a much different picture. You can compare that with non-FREE software and it certainly is compeitive:

    I believe that’s called “digging your own grave”, Pogson. Yes, exactly, once you venture beyond the “popular, widely-used, mature FLOSS” — by the way, the last “S” in FLOSS stands for “software”, so no need to repeat it — you’ll find hell on earth. And then you come very close to the 99.9 percent.

    It never ceases to amuse me that Cult of FLOSS members, when pressed to name superior or even only good FLOSS, can only ever parrot the same old names. Firefox, VLC, LibreOffice, Apache… Yawn!

  4. oldman wrote, “My experience has been that 99.9% of what is called FOSS is sub par software at best that has so many hassles that it is simply not worth using at any price, even free, even under windows.”

    The universe of FLOSS can be sampled by anyone anywhere for $0 so one may indeed make such a survey. No one has enough money to survey non-FREE software that way, so oldman compares apples and oranges.

    If you look at popular, widely-used, mature FLOSS software you see a much different picture. You can compare that with non-FREE software and it certainly is compeitive:

    • LibreOffice and M$’s office suite – the last time I used M$’s office suite regularly it was certainly no better than OpenOffice.org around the same time. LiberOffice is far superior to that so I believe LibreOffice should be still very competitive.
    • FireFox, Chrome and IE – FireFox was definitely superior to IE for me and Chrome is better than FF, so I can’t see IE being competitive at all. IE is only around because it’s bundled with PCs sold retail. Do that with FLOSS and IE would be gone.
    • Apache HTTPD web server and IIS – Apache does the job and only the job at hand. IIS is encumbered with hundreds of useless features relegating it to just 15% of the web compared to 60% for FLOSS.
    • VLC and M$’s media player – VLC has had hundreds of millions of downloads mostly by people who had M$’s offering for no extra charge bundled with PCs, so VLC is quite competitive. I use it a fair amound but I am not into video that much. I am grooving to CBC music from Chrome Browser as I type…
    • GNU/Linux and that other OS – M$ is definitely preferred by malware. That’s sufficient reason to choose GNU/Linux instead. Other equally important motivations are price, speed, reliability and no restrictive EULA, all pointing to GNU/Linux as the superior product.
    • I use all kinds of more geeky tools and FLOSS rocks. I suppose some of them are available with the non-FREE OS but why bother? That other OS is nothing but a bother to me.

    So, 100% of the kinds of software I use often are popular and better as FLOSS than what oldman proposes. I think he’s nuts.

  5. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “My experience has been that 99.9% of what is called FOSS is sub par software at best that has so many hassles that it is simply not worth using at any price, even free, even under windows.”

    If you count all the projects on Source forge that are active and vibrant then you could say 99.9% are not just sub par, they’re hardly even alive. But you can’t compare that to the proprietary software model. They are two different worlds. It’s not saying FLOSS is 99.9% failure.

    Your progression from Mosaic to Firefox was not without a substantial gap. Gap or no gap, you can say that Firefox and OpenOffice/LibreOffice have their roots in the proprietary software model. But what does that mean? That they wouldn’t exist if they didn’t start out with a proprietary assist? Sure I’ll give you that. But what about Linux? That was written from scratch. And what about the Web. That was stitched together with GNU.

    The point is that not everything depends on a proprietary model to get started. It is not necessary for the success of a project. It is not necessary for the success of a project of any given size. The steady progression of FLOSS is proof of that. And the growing number of news items and fierce discussions on these pages is proof of FLOSS’s steady progression.

    Oh, am I that big jackass? I’m your big jackass oldman. And that’s just fine with me.

  6. oldman says:

    ” As long as you don’t deny what you’ve written here.”

    Why should I? Firefox is descended from non-FOSS academic-ware. NCSA mosaic that created by a government subsidised entity and then was taken commercial as netscape. I used Mosaic/Netscape/Firefox a from the beginning of the web. My move to thunderbird came as Eudora began to the web in the early 90s running NCSA Mosaic and just continued through using the subsequent iterations.

    I will wear it well. It was worth it.

    Worth it for what? You got nothing from it as far as I am concerned, because aside from a very few tools that I have named, I have abandoned all the rest of desktop FOSS. My experience has been that 99.9% of what is called FOSS is sub par software at best that has so many hassles that it is simply not worth using at any price, even free, even under windows.

    Are you that big a jackass?

  7. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “No you bullied and you are still a shit.”

    Whether it was my bullying or the way I bullied you, you came up with what I wanted to hear. But I don’t believe it was my bullying that caused you to release the names of the FLOSS applications you use. I didn’t realize what it was until you wrote it though. It was naming the FLOSS applications you used. That was it. I don’t know why you never said it before and I don’t care. It doesn’t matter. You named the names. That’s all that mattered to me.

    Yes, I bullied the hell out of you. I came down on you like a shitload of bricks. And I would still be coming down on you. But not now and probably not anymore like I was. Just giving you a hard time in a normal way, if I can figure out how to do that, that is. As long as you don’t deny what you’ve written here. It doesn’t matter if you give up on FLOSS and just use proprietary software. It only matters that if you choose to use a FLOSS application that you name that application like you did here. Simple.

    I don’t blame you for calling me a shit or anything you want. I will wear it well. It was worth it.

  8. oldman says:

    And of course Pog wimps out on the challenge and sails on to the next debate point.

    Typical.

  9. TEG wrote of Munich, “A public entity failing to undergo external audit and disclose the outcome is generally considered a sign of lack of transparency and disregard of public interests. “

    I found a comptroller’s report from March. Check it out

  10. oldman says:

    What irks the crap out of me are people like oldman who simply refuse to acknowledge that someone might actually require the software that they need to use meet their requirements, and instead expect them to choose it on the criterion that its not FLOSS.

    Please spare us the bullshit. You dont want ANY choice. You want all to be FOSS and work towards that day. You cheer on the forced conversions by governmental fiat without any regard for the removal of choice involved.

  11. oldman says:

    “Now that wasn’t so hard now was it? That’s all that I asked. ”

    No you bullied and you are still a shit.

    “Monopolies tend to eliminate choices. That’s why we try not to encourage them.”

    Too bad microsoft is not a monopoly, and frankly I do not give a crap what you try.

  12. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “Does that sound like a software snob Mr. K?”

    No.

  13. kozmcrae says:

    oldman wrote:

    “The FOSS that is on my desktop is software that has proven itself over a long period of time to meet and continue to meet my needs. That is why I use Firefox and Thunderbird and Perl/CPAN and Red Hat Linux.”

    Now that wasn’t so hard now was it? That’s all that I asked. Now that you actually named the packages you use, that’s different. Now we know when you say something like “you get what you pay for”, you are not talking about Firefox or one of the other packages you mentioned (Although it would be better if you said so yourself.). I hope Audacity works out for you but if it doesn’t, maybe something else will come along.

    I’m going to bookmark your post here, not because I don’t trust you, mind you. Just in case you forget… If you find any other FLOSS applications that twinkle your heart, please let us know will you oldman.

    oldman wrote some more:

    “There is no software in my arsenal that is immune for re-evaluation.”

    Anytime an application changes for the worse, in your opinion, it’s time to re-evaluate. Just as long as you have choices that is. Monopolies tend to eliminate choices. That’s why we try not to encourage them.

  14. oldman wrote, “What irks the crap out of me are people like Robert Pogson who simply refuse to acknowledge that someone might actually require the software that they need to use meet their requirements, and instead expect them to choose it on the criterion that its FOSS.”

    What irks the crap out of me are people like oldman who simply refuse to acknowledge that someone might actually require the software that they need to use meet their requirements, and instead expect them to choose it on the criterion that its not FLOSS.

  15. oldman says:

    There is no software in my arsenal that is immune for re-evaluation. For example I recently started evaluating Audacity on windows as a substitute for my aging copy of Steinberg WaveLAN. If my assessment goes as well as expected. I may be foregoing the upgrade of One of my WaveLAN licenses, and eventually both of audacity makes the grade.

    Does that sound like a software snob Mr. K?

  16. oldman says:

    You are the master of your choice of software which is total bullshit. BS because you wouldn’t choose FLOSS and then say it was a piece of crap. Why choose software that you believe is a piece of crap?

    Someone else is choosing it for you @ldman and for some reason, that irks the hell out of you.

    Nope. I choose all my professional desktop tools, even FOSS. I use commercialized FOSS tools Like ActiveState Active Perl Professional and SSH Systems Tectia Client. That remains a fact and it is irrelevant to me whether you believe me or not.

    What irks the crap out of me are people like Robert Pogson who simply refuse to acknowledge that someone might actually require the software that they need to use meet their requirements, and instead expect them to choose it on the criterion that its FOSS.

    You want us to believe you are software agnostic. But you are a software snob.

    I guess it depends on how you define “snob” Mr. K. H Is a snbo someone who insists on looking critically at the great gift that you see sees FOSS and actually demand that it be fit for his purpose.

    The FOSS that is on my desktop is software that has proven itself over a long period of time to meet and continue to meet my needs. That is why I use Firefox and Thunderbird and Perl/CPAN and Red Hat Linux. There is no software in my arsenal that is I recently started evaluating Audacity on windows as a substitute for my aging copy of Steinberg WaveLAN. If my assessment goes as well as expected. I may be foregoing the upgrade of One of my WaveLAN licenses.

    Does that sound like a software snob Mr. K?

  17. oldman says:

    would = would not

  18. oldman says:

    The differece between oldman’s place and the City of Munich is that the the former is strictly private whereas the latter is a government organisation spending taxpayers’ money.

    Thank you again TEG.

    Actually we are audited yearly as part of the IT controls set by our management. Of course Pog would have a clue about IT controls…

  19. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘How rude! Show me the external audit of your place or shut up.’

    I somehow failed to pick up this gem. My bad.

    The differece between oldman’s place and the City of Munich is that the the former is strictly private whereas the latter is a government organisation spending taxpayers’ money. A public entity failing to undergo external audit and disclose the outcome is generally considered a sign of lack of transparency and disregard of public interests. That’s not something you can simply write off as “rudeness”.

  20. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘Uhhh… Rectangular regions of the screen with windows controls on the top right? Clicking on icons… Stuff like that. Some people don’t even know it’s not from M$…’

    That’s just both arrogant and ignorant, isn’t it? What it definitely shows is that you simply don’t care about nor is willing to examine what others truly expect of their purchases. In yours eyes, as long as one thing superficially resembles enough to the other, then it is good enough to fool people into believing that they are the same. Execuse me, but is this the kind of mentality you have in your so-called “spreading the truth”?

  21. oldman wrote, “How would you know what people are comfortable with Pog? “

    Uhhh… Rectangular regions of the screen with windows controls on the top right? Clicking on icons… Stuff like that. Some people don’t even know it’s not from M$…

  22. oldman says:

    Robert Pogson making in up as he goes along writes:

    According to the “business-friendly” NetApplications, XP has “41.23%” share. That is not a small corner but a huge slice of the pie. Lots of people are clinging to XP, perhaps 500 million machines and their users. Many of them would be quite comfortable with GNU/Linux compared to “8″.

    How would you know what people are comfortable with Pog? you are the one who summarily denounces function and features of modern software as useless frills and who has no problem “writing your own software” who recommends the most unfriendly hackers crap distro of all for all comers.

    The reality is you dont have a clue.

  23. oldman, denying reality again, wrote, ““In schools where I have worked, people are still stuck on desktops with XP.”

    That is not the world Pog no matter how you twist it. It is small corner.”

    According to the “business-friendly” NetApplications, XP has “41.23%” share. That is not a small corner but a huge slice of the pie. Lots of people are clinging to XP, perhaps 500 million machines and their users. Many of them would be quite comfortable with GNU/Linux compared to “8”.

  24. oldman says:

    Oldman you should accept the inevitable. Go back to the pee stream if you want and commiserate with your fellow winbreds as the revolution accelerates around you. Before you know it it will all be over and you’ll be completely irrelevant.

    Guess again Mr. King. I will still be employed quite nicely until I retire just supporting enterprise LOB systems running on Red Hat Enterprising Linux Servers. It is also a good bet that I will still be using newer versions of the same Productivity tools That I use now. If the vendors of those tools move to Linux, then I will use them.

    And remember Mr. King, virtual machine technology allows me to keep running my tools on whatever platform that I wish.

    I short I will continue to be quite relevant, while you will continue to be a noisemaker who is regularly ridiculed on TMR.

  25. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wants to know: “Since when did you become an expert on what most desktop computer users use their computers for? And why do you think that Mr. K.?”

    It doesn’t make a damn bit of difference whether I’m a so-called expert on what desktop computer users use their computers for. What do you call such an expert anyway? Why use a mouth-full of words to describe such a person. There’s no reason to post such a question except to draw the focus away from your reluctance to answer the original question about your choice of software. You could just as well asked me what cereal I eat for breakfast.

    @ldman wrote:

    “It is a job that I have been doing for a long time using a chosen set of personal productivity tools of my own choosing.”

    Which is exactly what I’ve said you’ve been saying all along. You are the master of your choice of software which is total bullshit. BS because you wouldn’t choose FLOSS and then say it was a piece of crap. Why choose software that you believe is a piece of crap? Someone else is choosing it for you @ldman and for some reason, that irks the hell out of you. Trust me, it makes no difference to anyone else. Only to you.

    You want us to believe you are software agnostic. But you are a software snob. You think you know better than everyone else. And you’ll never believe otherwise.

  26. oldman says:

    “In schools where I have worked, people are still stuck on desktops with XP.”

    That is not the world Pog no matter how you twist it. It is small corner.

    They will find their own solutions, not what Wintel wants to push down their throats. Some will choose small cheap computers. Others will choose GNU/Linux.

    How do you know Robert Pogson? You are now retired and no longer in a position to know directly what is going on. It is more likely that those people will continue to use the obsolete forms of wintel and then slowly upgrade to those newer forms of wintel that they can afford and support/understand. No doubt they will leverage a mixture of FOSS on the wintel desktop to control costs. But it is highly doubtful that very many of them will choose to run an OS that they have little experience with and which few if any people are experienced in.

  27. Adam King says:

    Oldman you should accept the inevitable. Go back to the pee stream if you want and commiserate with your fellow winbreds as the revolution accelerates around you. Before you know it it will all be over and you’ll be completely irrelevant.

  28. oldman says:

    They don’t care one iota how you come to use the software you use. It only matters to you. Your opinion of yourself is what matters here. No one else cares at all. I hope that helps you accept this hard little fact.

    The reality is nobody forces me to use FOSS on my desktop either personally or professionally. That is a fact. On the server side, it is part of my job to design systems that support Line of Business ERP systems running on linux. It is a job that I have been doing for a long time using a chosen set of personal productivity tools of my own choosing. Nothing you say is going to change that and nothing is going to change the fact that the commercial versions of the tools that I use are superior fits to task then their FOSS copies.

    Declaring victory is meaningless Mr K. as is your insistence that on one else cares. If you did not believe otherwise why do you insist on coming after me personally – a fact that you announced right up front on from the minute your craven little troll persona came on the scene.

    IN fact you should feel honored. Most of those who you go after simply laugh and dismiss you as the annoying little vermin that you are.

    I actually take you somewhat seriously enough to talk back in detail.

    But I come back to MY question:

    Since when did you become an expert on what most desktop computer users use their computers for? And why do you think that Mr. K.?

  29. oldman wrote, “The question is, Mr. K. since when did you become an expert on what most desktop computer users use their computers for? “

    One doesn’t need to be an expert on anything to note what some sample of users are doing. Take me, for instance. I visited two homes yesterday. In one the desktop machine was sitting idle, not even cabled together. A notebook was in its case for transport to/from work. Two smart phones were in almost constant use. In another a party was going on and the house was filled with ~50 people. No desktop/notebook was running. Smart phones were everywhere, surfing, taking pictures, making phone calls, playing multimedia. One smart phone was docked to a PA system for the entertainment of guests. Popular videos? “Chicken Dance” and some viral video from Bollywood… Sigh. IT is changing and it is the younger generation leading the charge. In two homes, where I have very little say in what goes on, there was no sign of Wintel and small cheap computers were all over the place. When people left the party, they checked for their smart phones first and then their keys.

    These observations correlate with the level of activity and shelf-space I observed at Walmart on my last visit.

    So, without any expertise, an ordinary human can see that the world of IT is changing, at least for consumers, ~50% of IT. In schools where I have worked, people are still stuck on desktops with XP. What are they going to do? They will find their own solutions, not what Wintel wants to push down their throats. Some will choose small cheap computers. Others will choose GNU/Linux. How long will XP run with no security updates? It’s all good. Freedom of choice at last. Compare that with “You can choose anything you want as long as it’s Wintel…”.

  30. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wrote:

    “The question is, Mr. K. since when did you become an expert on what most desktop computer users use their computers for? And why do you think that Mr. K.?”

    Just like I predicted. @ldman is a coward. You totally sidestepped the question. You absolutely refuse to answer it. You profess to be master of your software universe. No one chooses software for @ldman. Only he chooses it for himself. Not true.

    You use FLOSS because you have to. You have no choice in the matter and it pisses you off. You want us to believe you make your software choices based solely on merit. But your attitude towards FLOSS speaks a different story. The two don’t match up.

    I honestly don’t know why you are making such a big deal about it @ldman. Everyone knows the truth by now and trust me, it hasn’t lowered their opinion of you one little bit. It’s already as low as it can be.

    They don’t care one iota how you come to use the software you use. It only matters to you. Your opinion of yourself is what matters here. No one else cares at all. I hope that helps you accept this hard little fact.

  31. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘Yeah, people left and right are avoiding buying the eeePC with “7″ so much so that ASUS is discontinuing it! That’s what happens when you sell your soul to the devil…’

    Say the same person who complains about a whole section full of computers with Windows preinstalled in Walmart.

    You sure are one heck of a humourist, aren’t you?

  32. Chris Weig says:

    Yesterday I saw that openSUSE can still be purchased in stores. They want 60 Euros (!) for openSUSE 12.1. For that money you get a crap manual and some discounts for crap software. Unfortunately the retail box doesn’t mention that you will waste your time in spades.

  33. TEG wrote, “Yeah, people left and right are dying to buy the eeePC so much so that ASUS is discontinuing it!”

    Yeah, people left and right are avoiding buying the eeePC with “7” so much so that ASUS is discontinuing it! That’s what happens when you sell your soul to the devil…

  34. oldman says:

    Yet you crap all over FLOSS and say things like “you get what you pay for”. Why is that @ldman?

    The question is, Mr. K. since when did you become an expert on what most desktop computer users use their computers for? And why do you think that Mr. K.?

  35. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘They want it bundleds but they also would welcome choice as they had globally when ASUS shipped eeePC with GNU/Linux. They sold out everywhere. ASUS still ships eeeBox PCs with GNU/Linux but they are ending the line.’

    Yeah, people left and right are dying to buy the eeePC so much so that ASUS is discontinuing it! Do you know what you actually sound like when you say something this?

    Of course, why would everyone not want Linux? Seriously, they can’t wait to receive flattering titles like “World’s Dumbest Woman” and barrages of harassing emails and phone calls for having Linux preinstalled on their machines and not being able to use it to get their work done. With this attitude of yours, I can guarantee you even LoseThos would have a better chance to be the dominant OS than Linux.

    And you know who else shares your attitude towards end users? Almost every Linux advocate out there. By all means, keep playing the victim card and see who cares.

  36. kozmcrae says:

    The question is @ldman, that you choose your software based not on any so-called ideology but solely on quality and suitability for the job at hand. At least that is what you have professed so many times on these pages. Yet you crap all over FLOSS and say things like “you get what you pay for”. Why is that @ldman?

  37. oldman says:

    “And, therefore, if he uses a FLOSS application it is because he deems it worthy of his impeccably high standards.”

    Where Mr. K. did I refer to my “standards? You are putting workd in my mouth sir. What I have said is that the commercial desktop software that I use allows me to be more productive than FOSS. I have even given The example of how a feature built in to Microsoft excel 2007 saved me a custom programming job.

    In contrast you have made it very clear that you believe that FOSS desktop software can take care of all of the needs of most desktop computer users.

    The question is, Mr. K. since when did you become an expert on what most desktop computer users use their computers for? And why do you think that Mr. K.?

  38. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wrote:

    “Wanting? you are a jackass Mr. K.”

    Your opinion @ldman, and since you can’t answer a simple question regarding why you choose the software you use and how you speak of it, your opinion is worth much at all.

    Call me anything you like. You and your opinions don’t count here. You sacrificed them to save what little clout you thought you had.

    You want us to believe that you are the master of your realm. That you only use the software that @ldman chooses to use. Nothing is chosen for him. And, therefore, if he uses a FLOSS application it is because he deems it worthy of his impeccably high standards. But that doesn’t fit with your treatment of FLOSS. Why would you consider FLOSS worthy of your high standards and then piss all over it? Why do you do that @ldman?

  39. TEG wrote, without relevance, “Again, during that same year shrink-wrapped Linux installation discs were on retail shelves regardless of this kind of Groklaw fluff you so desperately cling onto. That’s a fact that everyone having lived in that era can verify.”

    That’s irrelevant to the vast majority of users of PCs, consumers, who likely never would contemplate installing an OS. They want it bundleds but they also would welcome choice as they had globally when ASUS shipped eeePC with GNU/Linux. They sold out everywhere. ASUS still ships eeeBox PCs with GNU/Linux but they are ending the line. That’s quite a long run for any model of PC. How many retailers sell it in my neighbourhood? Only on line. NCIX sells it for $386 with “7” and it’s special-order only. Newegg sells a similar product from Acer but it has zero feedback. I guess it doesn’t sell with that other OS only available. Newegg sold our of ASUS eeeBOX with GNU/Linux and they had 56% 5* reviews.

  40. oldman says:

    “You are all left wanting and it’s by choice. ”

    Wanting? you are a jackass Mr. K.

  41. That Exploit Guy says:

    @Robert Pogson

    ‘In February 1997 a Microsoft account representative told his counterpart at Gateway that Gateway’s use of Navigator on its own corporate network was a serious issue at Microsoft.’

    Again, during that same year shrink-wrapped Linux installation discs were on retail shelves regardless of this kind of Groklaw fluff you so desperately cling onto. That’s a fact that everyone having lived in that era can verify. You are simply trying to dismiss the reality of Linux failing to stand on it own feet and the conscious disinterest of the OS from the public by citing a conflict of interest in browser inclusion that has nothing to do with the subject matter itself. To me, that’s just disingenuous.

    Keep calling those using Windows “sheep”, “suckers” and “slaves”. That’ll sure get their attention. 😉

  42. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Trying to understand how someone would want to use the best software for any given job is impossible for you, as you are unable to concede that non-FLOSS can be better (WRT features and quality, not WRT to morals) than FLOSS.”

    Oh no Chris, that is exactly the point. @ldman contends that he chooses the applications he uses based solely on which ones are the best for the job. And as a result he uses a mix of proprietary and FLOSS applications. So he expects us to believe he is software agnostic. But if that is the case then why is he so biased against FLOSS? Simple question. You, TEG and @ldman are all going though contortions not answering that simple question.

    You are all left wanting and it’s by choice. So simple is the answer but your commitment to your cause makes it impossible for you to take that small step. Unbelievable, but apparently true.

  43. TEG wrote, “Do you think that, if the shop is going to make good money out of selling Linux, they will not sell it anyway regardless of this “Wintel” nonsense kiddies and clueless individuals alike have been parroting about since 1993?”

    Do you deny that M$ used to make exclusive deals with OEMs, ISPs and retailers to sell only M$’s stuff?

    “In February 1997 a Microsoft account representative told his counterpart at Gateway that Gateway’s use of Navigator on its own corporate network was a serious issue at Microsoft. He added that Microsoft would not do any co-marketing and sales campaigns with Gateway if the firm appeared to be anything but pro-Microsoft. If Gateway would replace Navigator with Internet Explorer, Microsoft would compensate Gateway for its investment in Netscape’s product. If Gateway refused, Microsoft might be compelled to audit Gateway’s internal use of Microsoft products. Gateway was separately told by Microsoft representatives that its decision to ship Navigator with its PCs could affect its business relationship with Microsoft.”

    Here is an example of M$ leveraging copyright to demand promotion of M$’s products. Wintel is not nonsense but organized crime as bad as anything the mafia does apart from the killing. That kind of stuff is incompatible with FLOSS and sufficient reason to support FLOSS.

  44. Chris Weig says:

    Wow, kozmcrae, you’re on a roll. Spouting big words about manhood (probably compensating for your small penis, like so many other Cult of FLOSS types).

    The answer you seek is very simple, kozmcrae. But you won’t understand it, because you don’t want to understand it. Cult of FLOSS types like you who have swallowed the doctrine whole can only distinguish between two states: FLOSS and non-FLOSS, where FLOSS corresponds to good and non-FLOSS corresponds to evil. That is your basic modus operandi (which Pogson has betrayed many times over, if only to pour more hate onto Microsoft). You know nothing else. For you using non-FLOSS is an existential question that has nothing to do with features or quality. You will deem everything good as long as it’s FLOSS, ignoring any drawbacks.

    Trying to understand how someone would want to use the best software for any given job is impossible for you, as you are unable to concede that non-FLOSS can be better (WRT features and quality, not WRT to morals) than FLOSS. Being or not being FLOSS is your overriding criterion for the assessment of software.

    So “pissing” on FLOSS has nothing to do with the software per se, but it has everything to do with the fanatics whose God FLOSS is, and who can’t accept differing opinions.

  45. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wrote:

    “I have saved and continue to save time energy and effort by paying for commercial software to get my job done.”

    Yes you do @ldman and you also choose to use FLOSS because it the best software for the job, at least thats what you tell us. You only use the best software no matter where it comes from because @ldman is not swayed by zealots or religion, just practicality. But you continue to praise proprietary software and shit on FLOSS every chance you get. Why do you do that? Why do you bite the hand that feeds you. Why do you damn the software that gives you so much for so little in return?

    You are not man enough to answer that simple question. And you won’t answer it either. It is not in your constitution. You will piss and moan. You will do a dance maybe, but you will not answer that simple question. You are not enough of a man. You come up short in the integrity department @ldman. Way short.

  46. That Exploit Guy says:

    “a little diagnosis could be done with little or no specialist knowledge to gather more information about the failure or the technology used.”

    The kettle was leaking water into the heating elements. There was no dispute about that. It was also certainly one of those things that could have been fixed – I just chose not to fix it instead.

    “constituents of the kettle”

    The bulk of the kettle was made out of non-biodegradable plastic. Some parts of it were certainly recyclable and would worth a bit of money in some countries or places. As I said, you need to put yourself into someone else’s shoes – how am I supposed to do all those supposedly “moral” things when the options are simply not available or feasible for me?

    “age of the kettle”

    The heating elements were in perfectly working condition. The only problem was the safety hazard associated with the leakage. If you are happy to pay the postage fee, I can mail the whole thing to you to play with. You are the one who’s retired, not me, and I don’t have time to spend on this kind of pointless endeavours.

    “So, it’s not something over which to lose sleep but enslaving people to pay ~$ per annum for the privilege of owning a PC doesn’t make any sense.”

    I am not supposed to lose sleep paying to own an electric kettle but I am supposed to lose sleep paying to own a PC. Just what on earth are you on about?

    “There’s not much moral middle ground on that. In a free market a product costing $0 and widely uses like GNU/Linux should at least have significant shelf-space. That it doesn’t in some places is wrong.”

    A shop stocks whatever it thinks is worth selling. They don’t sell strink-warpped Linux installation discs on the shelves? Too bad! Do you know how much it is to rent a shop space in a mall in some places? Do you think warehouses don’t cost money to maintain? Do you think that, if the shop is going to make good money out of selling Linux, they will not sell it anyway regardless of this “Wintel” nonsense kiddies and clueless individuals alike have been parroting about since 1993? Don’t fool yourself – your cause – the same cause I have abandoned for over a decade – is composed of nothing more than pimply teenagers who don’t know better, neckbeards with a persecution complex and corporate salespeople who want to make a quick buck out of hawking ultra-expensive service packages. If you want people to listen to you, give them the value they are expecting, not “moral” banters.

  47. oldman wrote, “go right ahead an continue to deny reality in front of the audience of your readers. They will see you for the fool that you really are.”

    I notice that you have repeated the claim that you fix servers running various OS so that they don’t get hacked and malware is not a problem for you. Yet your university is on the list of systems that were hacked. I followed the links and verified some URLs. Netcraft does not report the OS on one but the other is Solaris… Some of the data looks like LDAP and CRYPTed passwords but I don’t know if that’s from your system or the intruders’.

  48. TEG wrote, ““Morally” (note the scared quotes), was it the wrong thing for me to simply throw out the old kettle? “

    Probably. Without further information, it’s hard to know what is right.

    Issues:

    • a little diagnosis could be done with little or no specialist knowledge to gather more information about the failure or the technology used. If a leak of water was the problem, it might have been easily fixed with a TIG welder or such. In Winnipeg, I could probably find a dozen welders with the skill and equipment to do the job, but you are right, they are in business and get paid ~$50/h so the repair might have cost more than the kettle. If I had a TIG welder I could do it for fun. I had a chance to bid on one at an auction once but I did not even know what it was at the time. It sold for $100 but was probably worth $500. Oxy-acetylene is another suitable technology and much more common. If the leak was due to corrosion and not just a crack, the thing was probably past any legitmate use except maybe as an oranament.
    • constituents of the kettle – Did it contain a lot of lead, chromium, or other toxic metals? Here we have garbage pickup for burial and recycling pickup. Consitutents like tungsten, chrome, copper are sufficiently valuable to make salvage useful. Some places even have solutions for tungsten filaments.
    • age of the kettle – Only a few years ago, kettles were not easily fixed if the heating element failed, for instance, because they were encased with ceramic and hard solder.

    So, it’s not something over which to lose sleep but enslaving people to pay ~$ per annum for the privilege of owning a PC doesn’t make any sense. That’s what Wintel does for ordinary people every time they buy a retail PC with that other OS. The poor suckers don’t even know how much they paid to become slaves. There’s not much moral middle ground on that. In a free market a product costing $0 and widely uses like GNU/Linux should at least have significant shelf-space. That it doesn’t in some places is wrong.

  49. oldman says:

    Thank you TEG…

  50. That Exploit Guy says:

    @kozmcrae

    ‘You use both proprietary and FLOSS but you are clearly biased against FLOSS. You want us to believe you are software agnostic?’

    Here, let this ex-FLOSS advocate answer this question for you.

    Two weeks ago, I paid ~$50 to get myself an new electric kettle to replace my old, leaky, and potentially very dangerous one. Could I have instead tried to fix the old one instead? Absolutely! But here’s the catch:

    1) I didn’t know anything about fixing electric kettles. Even if I had somehow managed to restored to a (sort of) working condition, there would have been no way to guarantee the workmanship.

    2) Supposing there was someone out there with the skill and the generosity to fix it for free, I would still need to find out if he/she was reachable.

    3) Of course, since I could find no one reachable that was both skilled and generous enough to fix my kettle for free, I would have to perhaps pay someone to fix it. Hiring someone with the right skillset for fixing the kettle where I lived would probably cost at lest $50-100 per hour, and that’s for the labour alone. The local department store, on the other hand, was selling this stainless steel electric kettle with fancy buttons for $50 with spare change.

    4) Hypothetically, I could fix the kettle myself provided that I had the right skills. However, I would still need to spend time to scour for parts and do the repairing. Would I rather spend that amount of time doing what I actually wanted to do? Of course yes! Why would I want to sit in front of a broken kettle all day when I could use that same amout of time to take a nap, watch some TV, catch up with friends or perhaps earn $50-$100 per hour fixing someone else’s kettle especially when the department store had this nice, brand-new thing on sale? There was simply no way on earth cost-wise to justify that particular choice. Not ever.

    “Morally” (note the scared quotes), was it the wrong thing for me to simply throw out the old kettle? Would I end up with the Greenpeace people standing on my roof and calling for a fiery death upon everyone living underneath? Probably, but considering that even the nearest recycling centre was a half-an-hour drive away from where I lived (and I would have to pay them to dispose of my trash), that broken kettle was destined for the bin. You could say whatever you want about that decision, but that’s my business, and I am not obliged to sooth your conscience for negligible gain at my expense. Again, not ever.

    What does all this have to do with FLOSS, you ask? Well, do you think people paying licenses for closed-source software care about see the source code? I hate to break the news for you, but, in all honesty, they don’t. They don’t want to know about the code and they don’t want to find someone seperate to maintain it for them. If you sell them something, then it is you whom they expect to go back to if things go wrong. It’s the same reason people go back to the dealer to fix their cars or to the jeweler to fix their watches. If it can’t or just won’t be fixed, they throw out it out and buy something new. “Morally” (again, note the scared quote), is that wrong? Will that invite the FSF people to their roof and cry for a fiery death upon everyone underneath? Probably, but do they care? And, more importantly, will they go and sooth your conscience for a negligible gain at their own expense? Certainly not.

    Remember – people don’t have the same moral views on just about anything. When you want to say to someone that something is “morally” wrong, put yourself in that other person’s shoes first and think from their perspective lest you end up being seen as a fool.

  51. oldman says:

    “So, oldman is wrong. His statement appears coloured by personal bias rather than any rational basis.”

    Pog I am not wrong. I have saved and continue to save time energy and effort by paying for commercial software to get my job done. And no amount of irrelevant crap thrown at me is going to change that fact.

    But go right ahead an continue to deny reality in front of the audience of your readers. They will see you for the fool that you really are.

  52. oldman wrote, “if I had no other coiuce /andor thought my time was worth nothing /and/or I had all the time in the world to piece together with the digital version of sh-t, spit and bailing wire the tools that I needed to accomplish a particular rask, then indeed Linux can do anything.”

    Nonsense. Lots of people whose time is precious use GNU/Linux and they are glad of it:

    So, oldman is wrong. His statement appears coloured by personal bias rather than any rational basis. The world is full of people valuing their time and choosing GNU/Linux. It works for them and they choose not to be slaves/dupes/agents of M$.

  53. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wrote:

    “Shithead you will get your answer when I am ready.”

    “kozmcrae you who regularly call people vile names on this blog from behind the anonymity of a nym know nothing about manhood.”

    Just as I predicted, you will not be straight with me, or anyone else on this blog. You use both proprietary and FLOSS but you are clearly biased against FLOSS. You want us to believe you are software agnostic?

    So why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely? You use both kinds of software proprietary and FLOSS, but only piss on FLOSS. Why is that?

  54. oldman says:

    “A computer running GNU/Linux can do anything a computer running that other OS can. It’s just a question of how.”

    Yes if I had no other coiuce /andor thought my time was worth nothing /and/or I had all the time in the world to piece together with the digital version of sh-t, spit and bailing wire the tools that I needed to accomplish a particular rask, then indeed Linux can do anything.
    The problem is Pog, that my time is both valuable and precious to me. Using the lash it together method that you champion is a wast of time enegry and effort when better tools are available.

    The addition of the ability of MS excel 97 to derive an XML schema from an XML data stream for which no schema was available saved me hours of perl programming, and costs me zero time and effort to maintain.

    The ability of Excel to remove duplicate records from a data stream likewise saved me time energy and effort programming.

    That’s just one tool Pog, I paid $150.00 to upgrade my license and it paid for itself in the first 2 hours that I used it.

    Sometimes you have to pay money to save money Robert Pogson.

    But I doubt that you ever will understand that.

  55. oldman says:

    ” Just tell the truth.”

    The only way that you will ever hear anything from me Mr. K is if/when you are ever physically standing in front of me.

    Then we will talk.

  56. oldman says:

    “Stand up and be a man. Tell the hard truth for a change. Stop hiding behind that overblown on-line persona you make us endure. Just tell the truth.”

    kozmcrae you who regularly call people vile names on this blog from behind the anonymity of a nym know nothing about manhood. So spare me your baloney.

  57. oldman says:

    “You will not give me a straight answer @ldman. Not before or after you are ready. Not anytime because you are a coward. You have your reason but you will not reveal it to me or anyone on this blog. Not the real reason anyway. ”

    Shithead you will get your answer when I am ready.

  58. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wrote:

    “It may surprise you you little terd that I have a life outside this board.”

    We all do @ldman.

    “You will get an answer when I am ready not before…”

    So why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely? You use both kinds of software proprietary and FLOSS, but only piss on FLOSS. Why is that?

    You will not give me a straight answer @ldman. Not before or after you are ready. Not anytime because you are a coward. You have your reason but you will not reveal it to me or anyone on this blog. Not the real reason anyway.

    So why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely? You use both kinds of software proprietary and FLOSS, but only piss on FLOSS. Why is that?

    I suspect your use of FLOSS at work is required. You have no choice. You expect us to believe you are software agnostic when you are demonstrably biased against FLOSS. Why is that?

    You will tell us when you are good and ready? Why the wait? So you can think of a good one? I can think of no other good reason to delay writing one sentence.

    You are demonstrating your cowardice @ldman. Why don’t you show us that @ldman can be oldman and tell us that he flat out doesn’t like FLOSS and only uses it at work because he has no choice in the matter. Stand up and be a man. Tell the hard truth for a change. Stop hiding behind that overblown on-line persona you make us endure. Just tell the truth.

  59. oldman says:

    “You are a coward @ldman. You hide behind your silence. You are going to want to comment sometime in the future on some other post. You don’t think I’m not going to remind you that you chickened out on this post. Think again.”

    It may surprise you you little terd that I have a life outside this board. As far as chickening out is concerned, you already have my thought on you particular type of craven cowardice.

    You will get an answer when I am ready not before…

  60. kozmcrae says:

    Then you win?

  61. kozmcrae says:

    @ @ldman again:

    So why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely? You use both kinds of software proprietary and FLOSS, but only piss on FLOSS. Why is that?

    You are a coward @ldman. You hide behind your silence. You are going to want to comment sometime in the future on some other post. You don’t think I’m not going to remind you that you chickened out on this post. Think again.

  62. kozmcrae wrote, to oldman, “why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely”.

    I’ve noticed over the years that oldman and others hold that one always must use the “best” software even when it is overkill. Need to type a note for the refrigerator? Use M$’s office suite. It’s the best. Need to crop a snap from the party? Use PS. It’s the best. Need to keep track of the inventory in your workshop? Use Oracle. It’s the best. The fact that almost any other software would do most tasks with equal effectiveness completely escapes their reasoning. In their quest to use the “best tool for the job” they will spend:

    Software Price ($)
    That Other OS Super Duper

    $200

    M$’s office suite “Professional”

    $500

    Adobe PhotoshopTM “Extended”

    $999

    Total

    $1699

    when, of course, many standard distros could be had for $0 download and, say, $20 of labour running the installation/setup.

    This overkill is a characteristic of folks so wealthy expenses do not matter or heavily subsidized by employer/government/sponsor that waste is no issue at all. In the real world with people paying out of their own limited funds for stuff, GNU/Linux is a valid choice that would be taken much more often if offered on retail shelves. Of course retailers and OEMs may make more revenue per machine selling bloatware but it certainly is not in the interests of consumers, it certainly is anti-competitive (illegal) and with just a small effort OEMs and retailers could sell more units of better hardware for a similar price or perhaps less, making everyone except M$ happier.

  63. kozmcrae says:

    @ @ldman:

    So why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely? You use both kinds of software proprietary and FLOSS, but only piss on FLOSS. Why is that?

    It’s begging to look like you have no substance @ldman. You won’t answer a straight question. I’m sure you’ll come around and do your dance. You’ll try to tilt the onus of the discussion back to me. You’ll get all haughty, use the words “Sir” and “bushwha” and say you’re done with me.

    But you still won’t say why you only piss on FLOSS when you use both proprietary and FLOSS. You’ll say you don’t have to answer that question, for some reason or another. But if you want to be taken seriously by anyone visiting this blog, you do have to answer that question @ldman.

    I’ve seen you in action @ldman. I know all your little excuses. You’ll have to come up with some new ones. I have no doubt that you will.

  64. kozmcrae says:

    @laman wrote:

    “But in the end whatever software I use Mr. K. it WILL meet MY needs or it will not be used, regardless if it is open or closed free or for pay.”

    So why is it that you denigrate so badly the software that you use so freely? You use both kinds of software proprietary and FLOSS, but only piss on FLOSS. Why is that?

    So either you are lying about your “whatever meets my needs”, or you just say whatever gets you by for the moment.

    As for me, I don’t believe in encouraging a convicted monopolist and a company who continues to show signs of abuse. I will not vote for them with my dollars or with my words. Their agenda is not healthy for the rest of the World, that much they have proven undeniably.

  65. oldman wrote, “Technical is the only thing that counts in this debate”.

    If you believed that to be true, why are you here? You’ve discussed the technology ad nauseam but still go on about all kinds of things other than the technology.

    Technology is very important but its consequences, costs/benefits also matter. That’s a lot more than just technology. We know one can do a lot with that other OS. There are more reasons than just ability to do something that goes into selecting an OS. On retail shelves, there’s availability. One cannot choose GNU/Linux as a consumer if it’s not on the shelves. How it came to be that GNU/Linux is not found on many shelves is way more than technology. GNU/Linux, too, can do just about everything.

    Further, when an organization such as Munich does huge public due diligence and is still trashed by commentators here you know it is about way more than technology. Munich chose the right technology for what they wanted to do. They were getting into a deep hole just doing what “the market” was pushing them towards, total lock-in to Wintel. They now have dug themselves out and are far ahead without missing anything.

  66. oldman says:

    “Technically true, morally false.

    Technical is the only thing that counts in this debate Mr. K. all else is bushwah…

    As apparently are you.

    In the manner of a man who can’t see through the fog of his own arrogance and sense of entitlement, “You Sir are a coward.”.

    You’re right Mr. K. I do have sense of entitlement – entitlement to software that works for me on my terms. If it happens to come with a license that has a zero dollar charge ( like powershell or perl) so much the better. If I have pay for a license to use it and I can afford or justify the costs, thats fine too. But in the end whatever software I use Mr. K. it WILL meet MY needs or it will not be used, regardless if it is open or closed free or for pay.

    And so in the manner of the man who knows his needs are technology wise and is familiar with real technology and who has had more than his share of familiarity with crap both commercial and FOSS:

    You Mr. K are the true coward here. You hide behind a nym and trash people and say things that could indeed cause you quite a few problems were you to say them to someones face.

    But you know Mr. K even if you were standing in front of me saying what you said, you wouldn’t be worth the effort.

    Unbelievab

  67. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman wrote:

    “The only way that a user like myself can use linux would be to give up functions and features that we have had for years.”

    I think you would agree that you are unique @ldman, special even. Few users wield a computer with the range of functions that you do. I’m appealing to your ego, of course. But that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

    But some of the functions and features that you rely upon are specific to Microsoft software. So, of course, Linux isn’t going to fulfill that function. So you can always say that Linux cannot work for you. Technically true, morally false.

    “Not so fast, You owe me an answer Pog to the following:”

    In the manner of a man who can’t see through the fog of his own arrogance and sense of entitlement, “You Sir are a coward.”.

  68. oldman wrote, repeatedly, “The only way that a user like myself can use linux would be to give up functions and features that we have had for years.”

    “functions and features” are frills and luxuries in most part. A computer can do those things those ways one way or another. A computer running GNU/Linux can do anything a computer running that other OS can. It’s just a question of how.

    Some examples:

    • Something users of that other OS have done for years is to “drag and drop” images anywhere on the desktop. That’s neat but certainly not essential. I can do the same function different ways with more clicks perhaps. I don’t even think about it. Does it work today in GNU/Linux? Sort of. I did a “copy” and “paste” into LibreOffice and got the URI of the image instead of the image but I can “insert/image/from file” and past the URI there and get what I want. Does that affect my productivity? It might but not likely. I spend way more time reading and thinking and writing than pasting images. For the blog I have a widget that allows drag and drop for images. Dragging an image to the task windows bar and dropping it onto the document in LibreOffice does the right thing, so there is no advantage to that other OS after all.
    • Another thing that users of that other OS enjoy is printing selected files from the file-manager. In my whole life I have only missed that a couple of times. A couple of years ago, I worked out a command which would allow me to print all the report cards with a single typed command. No advantage in reality there.
    • Running a particular application is of no advantage whatsoever for me because I can do anything by running other applications that do the same thing. As a last resort, I can write my own application. Not everyone wants to do those things, so that’s fine, but they then have to support M$ forever, a long time and a heavy burden. I, on the other hand, have the Debian crew doing most of the work for me to maintain my systems. APT is like having IT on the payroll. For me that is sufficient to choose GNU/Linux. There are many other burdens of that other OS that make me lean to GNU/Linux rationally, not as an act of faith.
  69. oldman says:

    “OK, oldman, a test. ”

    Not so fast, You owe me an answer Pog to the following:

    The only way that a user like myself can use linux would be to give up functions and features that we have had for years.

    I ask you Pog…

    For what?

  70. kozmcrae says:

    Robert Pogson wrote:

    “How is it that the great oldman allowed that to happen?”

    You will never get that truth from @ldman. You may get some other truth because he’ll dance around your question but he will never be straight with you, or anyone. He’s not man enough.

  71. oldman wrote, ” I have no trouble keeping either OS humming along problem free and exploit free.”

    OK, oldman, a test. How did you keep everything free of exploits you did not know exist but hundreds of scammers/phishers/intruders perhaps within your own LAN knew about? Things that grabbed tens of millions of PCs and caused huge shut-downs of major IT systems? Heh? How did you do that? Unless you ran that other OS in read-only memory or had read-only storage, you could not. Systems locked down that tight would have been useless except for embedded systems. And I, knowing little more than how to install GNU/Linux never had a system slow down or get malware. There’s no mystery to it. There’s 1000 times less malware for GNU/Linux and most of it cannot get anywhere for the same reasons you claim ISVs don’t support GNU/Linux, it’s hard to install apps without using the package manager.

    How about this memo from September 15?

    “Forward all phishing messages to phishing@nyu.edu. This helps train our email filters to block such messages in the future.”

    Well, the fact that the memo was sent suggests your filters did not prevent some from getting through and just maybe some user clicked on a link, eh?

    Well, what vulnerability in that other OS did the phishers exploit? How is it that the great oldman allowed that to happen?

    Here’s one about a trojan that went for a walk on your systems.

    Oh, and there’s Conficker

  72. oldman says:

    “So get off your high horse, oldman. You don’t think for everyone and your prejudices are showing.”

    Dont lecture me about prejudices Pog. You have not onlymade yours abundantly clear in this blog. but you go out of your way to spout ignorance and bigotry at every post. I work with both Linux and windows every DAY Robert Pogson. I have worked with every version of Windows and most major versions of *nix longer than YOU have. I have no trouble keeping either OS humming along problem free and exploit free. You can not even make the same claim. Is it a miracle? No it is not. I know what I am doing

    and you as far as I can see do not.

    BTW You did not answer my question.

    The only way that a user like myself can use linux would be to give up functions and features that we have had for years.

    I ask you Pog…

    For what?

    Got an answer?

  73. oldman wrote, ” Those of us who unlike yourself are professionals who actually have to get real work done with our computers have chosen the applications that we run for function and feature. Those appplications run on windows”

    For your information I was a government-certified professional educator in half of Canada. I did important work using computers every day of that career.

  74. oldman wrote, “Show me the external audit or shut up.”

    How rude! Show me the external audit of your place or shut up.

    oldman wrote, “I guarantee you that whatever Linux the US government uses is not the Debian crap that you propose to the unwary.”

    US Navy has done tests with Debian. Cornell University CUAV beat the competition using Debian GNU/Linux.

    US Military Security Content Automation Protocol testing supports Debian GNU/Linux so someone in US Military must be using it…

    Navy Research Laboratory uses Debian.

    So get off your high horse, oldman. You don’t think for everyone and your prejudices are showing.

  75. oldman says:

    Munich which is saving €millions annually in licences and maintenance

    Facts not in evidence. Show me the external audit or shut up.

    The US military which finds GNU/Linux tough and reliable

    I guarantee you that whatever Linux the US government uses is not the Debian crap that you
    propose to the unwary.

    I also guarantee you the desktops still run windows by and large.

    “Tons of schools which find it kid-proof and easy to maintain”

    Yes and I got to clean up one of those schools that a bozo like you left with a linux solution – it fell apart when they ran into the first non linux application that they wanted to use and the boster wasnt arount to band-aid them through when they needed to do.

    You can kid proof windows if you know how pog. It is obvious to me you didn’t know how!

    “Google which uses GNU/Linux on huge numbers of server and their desktops”

    Big deal. a spit in the ocean.

    “oldman can say what he wants and write what he wants but Truth Happens.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Red Hat won’t go near consumer desktops with a 50 foot pole! Their workstation product is a place keeper for those who want a desktop linux distribution that they can trust.

    I’ve used Red Hat workstation. I wound up wiping it off my system because it was simpler to use the server product.

    Pog. Those of us who unlike yourself are professionals who actually have to get real work done with our computers have chosen the applications that we run for function and feature. Those appplications run on windows. None of the major ISV’s are going to go within a country mile of the mess that is the linux desktop, and vendors like adobe have said so.

    The only way that a user like myself can use linux would be to give up functions and features that we have had for years.

    I ask you Pog…

    For what?

    That is

  76. oldman wrote, of GNU/Linux, “running mediocre junk software on a sub-par desktop.”

    Ask lots of people. They disagree with that assessment:

    • The Little Woman. Her XP desktop froze numerous times over the years. GNU/Linux has not failed her except on one old machine that is very short of RAM. She uses GNU/Linux on 3 machines at home and Android/Linux on another. She has no complaints about the OS.
    • Residents of communities all over the North here who were tired of buying new machines or shipping old machine out for “repair” when the only thing wrong was that other OS bombed out.
    • Munich which is saving €millions annually in licences and maintenance,
    • The US military which finds GNU/Linux tough and reliable,
    • Tons of schools which find it kid-proof and easy to maintain,
    • Google which uses GNU/Linux on huge numbers of server and their desktops,

    oldman can say what he wants and write what he wants but Truth Happens.

  77. oldman says:

    And you are advocating for Microsoft. You are part of the problem Chris.

    And you are advocating running mediocre junk software on a sub-par desktop.

    You are NOT part of the solution.

  78. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Anyway, this was about a Remote Desktop exploit.”

    You are not getting it. This is not about a particular exploit Chris. It’s about the fact that Microsoft did not build security into their operating system. By their own admission that is the fact.

    There is no security *in* their operating system. It’s layered on and patched as needed, after the fact. That is not a security solution, it is quite literally a patch job.

  79. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “And for this exploit Microsoft provided a patch.”

    Chris, you can’t apply a patch for Microsoft’s security. It cannot be fixed. You can only apply patches for exploits that are discovered. And those are usually discovered after the damage has been done. In an upside down world that might be normal but not in this world. That’s called getting screwed both ways, by the criminals and by Microsoft.

    And you are advocating for Microsoft. You are part of the problem Chris.

  80. Chris Weig says:

    It is a cruel joke that M$ has forced much of the world to share the burden.

    Microsoft has forced the world how? Let me guess, did they force the world like the Nazis forced IBM?

    Insanity seems to be the greatest virtue among the Cult of FLOSS members on this blog.

  81. Chris Weig says:

    Saying “Microsoft had a patch available.” is like saying the Titanic had a deck chair. What good does that do? It doesn’t fix Microsoft’s security problem. It doesn’t address the current unknown exploits and it doesn’t address the bottomless pit of future exploits.

    https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu

    Anyway, this was about a Remote Desktop exploit. For your sake I generously assumed that it was real, although what was claimed in your dubious “article” from which you cited I could not find anywhere else. And for this exploit Microsoft provided a patch. If said POS skimming was indeed real, then the supermarket chain should’ve taken security seriously and applied the patch. They did not. How was that Microsoft’s fault?

    Anything else you wrote in your deranged diatribe is just meaningless bull. Give me a call when Linux ventures beyond 2 percent market share. Perhaps then will some malware authors be interested in your meaningless Desktop OS.

  82. kozmcrae wrote, “the bottomless pit of future exploits”.

    I think the term “unscalable mountain” would be more suitable. The world cannot fix M$’s problems. It is a cruel joke that M$ has forced much of the world to share the burden. It’s a generational thing now, like the epidemic of social welfare. Social welfare is supposed to help people out of a bind but instead it enslaves them.

  83. That Exploit Guy says:

    That’s just disingenuous. When someone tries to ridicule your fanaticism by accusing you of seeing an obviously nonexistent, anti-Microsoft subtext, the last thing you want to do is to prove that he is, in fact, absolutely correct with his every word.

    By the way:

    ‘Thy servant slew both thr lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.’ – 1 Samuel 17:36

    One must wonder whom your ‘living God’ is. Roy Schestowitz? Pamela Jones? ESR? RMS?

    Just don’t tell me you opened this blog because a man in the sky talked to you about it.

    Oh, look – here’s more:

    ‘Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites… Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.’ – Matthew 17:23,24

    Perhaps even Jesus himself would like to have a word or two with you on your recent blog posts? Hmph…

  84. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Microsoft had a patch available.”

    Oh you disillusioned soul. There are more than 10,000 unpatched security holes in Microsoft’s OS (most likely many, many more). Many of them are being exploited right now.

    Saying “Microsoft had a patch available.” is like saying the Titanic had a deck chair. What good does that do? It doesn’t fix Microsoft’s security problem. It doesn’t address the current unknown exploits and it doesn’t address the bottomless pit of future exploits.

  85. Chris Weig says:

    See, it does not matter, M$’s stats, or wealth or power. In the end good shall triumph.

    That’s only so when you are the one defining good and evil.

  86. Chris Weig wrote, “If you’d read the Bible you’d find something anti-Microsoft in there.”

    Why, yes, here it is! Thanks, I had not even thought of that until you brought it up…
    “And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span.

    And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth. So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.”

    See, it does not matter, M$’s stats, or wealth or power. In the end good shall triumph.

  87. Chris Weig says:

    It just tells it like it is Chris.

    It tells you what you want to believe. Big difference. If you’d read the Bible you’d find something anti-Microsoft in there.

    Most POS skimming doesn’t involve breaking into an OS. If there was a Remote Desktop security flaw at Stop and Shop — the only incident tied in a dubious way to Microsoft; there’s almost no other source available online — they should’ve fixed it. Microsoft had a patch available.

    Back into your padded cell.

  88. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “Or else you wouldn’t have in desperation copy & pasted from a really bad article, which itself is a copy & paste hackjob:”

    It just tells it like it is Chris. You just don’t like what is says. Microsoft Windows security is a nightmare. In their own words security was never a top priority. You advocate for a loser.

  89. Chris Weig says:

    In fact I am not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Kernel_Labs

    Where can I read in which airplanes this is used? What was that? In none?

    Of course you would not beware of this. INTEGRITY-178B is lower rated than one the Linux based options.

    Sure, but you’re aware of it, because deep in the Australian bush you’ve actually developed something even better.

    The A380 system is not a single OS.

    And nowhere did I write that it is. Stop putting words in my mouth.

  90. Chris Weig says:

    Kozmcrae, you’re babbling about things you clearly know nothing about. Or else you wouldn’t have in desperation copy & pasted from a really bad article, which itself is a copy & paste hackjob:

    http://www.securityforsmallbusiness.com/blog/merchants-at-risk-for-pos-skimming-fraud.aspx

    Perhaps you’d like to refer us to a better “proof”.

  91. oiaohm says:

    Chris Weig
    –Linux in mission-critical aircraft control systems? You’re out of your mind.–

    In fact I am not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Kernel_Labs

    Of course you would not beware of this. INTEGRITY-178B is lower rated than one the Linux based options.

    The A380 system is not a single OS. They did run a single OS in the predecessors. 1 OS bug and the lot went out at once not pretty for the poor people flying it.

    Flight controls you do want backup plans. If system 1 fails you want a system 2 that still works.

    Mono culture vs multi culture.

  92. kozmcrae says:

    Chris Weig wrote:

    “They’d also better not go to the supermarket — the cash registers could run Windows.”

    You nailed that one Chris.

    BankInfoSecurity reports “The news is just one in a growing line of POS skimming fraud schemes. From the Michaels POS PIN pad swapping scam, which hit in May, to the Save Mart Supermarkets self-checkout breach announced in the last two weeks, merchant-level card security is garnering new attention.”

    “Anyone with inside knowledge of payments can easily hack a POS system. “Then they simply use tools to crack a Windows remote desktop – defaults at port 3389 – program’s password, and they are in.””

    The damage done by Microsoft knows no end. And you advocate for that damage.

  93. Chris Weig says:

    You read what I wrote, Ham? An important freedom is missing: you can’t see the code! Has nothing to do with Linux.

    I’m not a hypocrite like you. The reverse vending machines in my supermarket run Linux. I don’t go to another supermarket because of this. (But they crash awfully often.)

    Regarding Airbus — no clue what you’re babbling. For the A380 it’s known that Linux is used for in-flight entertainment. For all other control systems a specialized RTOS like INTEGRITY is used. Which, incidentally, is used in the A380, INTEGRITY-178B, to be precise. Linux in mission-critical aircraft control systems? You’re out of your mind.

  94. oiaohm says:

    Chris Weig really how many modern aircraft have you really been in.

    Airbus the entertainment system is Linux. The flight controls are Linux. So yes your life is in Linux hands.
    Chris Weig I really do wonder how you fly.

  95. Chris Weig says:

    Let’s not forget that FLOSS die-hards should better not withdraw money from their bank account by means of an ATM. Those run Windows. They’d also better not go to the supermarket — the cash registers could run Windows.

    Such things are, naturally, a crime against humanity, too. Because the FLOSS clown posse can’t see the code! Chuckle.

    I’m seriously in awe that Richard Stallman can set foot in a plane without inspecting the code first. Should he once die in a plance crash the FSF’s urgent press release will read: “Richard Stallman killed by non-free software!”

  96. That Exploit Guy says:

    ‘That’s true, and I would not object to the world being that way if it weren’t for monopoly.’

    Very well, then, how about letting eveyone see you objecting some other monopoly for once? Or is it just that you have no problem with monopoly so as long as Microsoft is not involved?

    ‘Governments should procure and use software that works for them and the best interests of their people. With governments struggling to balance budgets, it should be obvious to all that throwing money away on unneeded software licences is wrong.’

    Of course, the world is always wrong and you are always right.

    Look – it is the governments and its people who have the final say on what is need and what is not. You, Robert Pogson, are not them and do not have the rights or the knowledge to decide what they should use under their circumstances, and it is not your place to chip in your two bob’s worth on how they should spend their money or why. You are simply whining about the fact that the majority of the market does not prefer your OS of choice for whatever reason you do not like, and that, my friend, is simply childish.

    ‘The world does not owe M$ and its “partners” a living.’

    No one owes anyone selling anything under a brand name a living. It’s just like I could be my own surgeon and thus bypassing the entire medical industry and its mountains of patents. Heck, if you end up at the hospital one day with a head trauma, make sure you tell your doctor that you don’t ‘owe’ Fonar a living and refuse an MRI scan like a consistent, well-principled person that you always are. Do you see how fundamentally absurd that argument is?

  97. Finalzone says:

    That’s not necessarily a good thing – and absolutely no advantage given that MSO still leads in features. I’ll give you the master document (haven’t used it myself, so I wouldn’t know either way). But where else is LO actually better now?

    Leading by sabotaging competition is not a lead, it is cheating. Does more features mean bloat? Look at the size of MSO compared to LO. For the master page, make sure to use txt format, copy and paste on each LO and MSO in default format. If that master page is written in either doc or docx, the comparison is void because those files contain specific Microsoft scripts. So much for interpolarity.

  98. “free as in beer” means for the same price as free beer, $0 or €0.

    Good points. For me the main point is that consumers are often forced to pay for that other OS whether they want it or not and they cannot know the price of it when it is bundled with the PC. Very few markets show the side by side price of identical hardware with that other OS and GNU/Linux, for instance, so a consumer does not know the price being paid. We do not accept that for carrots, cars or anything else. We should not accept it for operating systems especially when an OS can so easily be changed by the manufacturer.

  99. Finalzone says:

    So LO supports its standard (ODF) better, and MSO supports its standard (OOXML) better – big surprise. And guess which format is more widely used and thus more important in practical terms?

    ODF is the ISO standard. is29500 ooxml is not fully supported by Microsoft themselves which expect for 2013. Need to remind how is29500 ooxml came? By subversion which are fully documented. Microsoft deliberately broke compatibility to maintain the status quo. The fact Microsoft used government and politicians exposed worse level of corruption.Have you read the 6000 pages documentation of is29500 ooxml? An abonimation.

    PDF export came with MSO 2007, and MSO 2013 can import PDF. (And of course, all kinds of other solutions – from TinyPDF to Acrobat – have been around a long time.)
    LibreOffice predecessor came with that feature before MSO. The difference is the price.

    Then there’s the fact that with LO one gets a few upgrades per annum instead of a few years per licence.
    That approach is better because companies don’t need to shell money per license because LO can be freely downloaded

    That’s not necessarily a good thing – and absolutely no advantage given that MSO still leads in features. I’ll give you the master document (haven’t used it myself, so I wouldn’t know either way). But where else is LO actually better now?

  100. DavidS says:

    I follow the debate here for the last few months, and, although there are, sometimes, valuable points from the Windows users, the main topic, problem is not always made clear.

    It is a question of freedom. (Since I am not a native English speaker, I don’t have a clue what “free as in beer” means, btw.) MS wants to sell his OS and his software. But it becomes obvious that, just like Google, Facebook, it also wants informations about us, it wants to know what we do and to control what we do with our computer.

    I don’t care about the reasons for such a behaviour, but it is unacceptable in any form and for any reason. It is unacceptable that Amazon erases books from your tablet, books you already paid, the way it did last year. The way Google tracks you is monstrous.

    What’s next? Today, you can’t download and install a program. Tomorrow, you won’t be able to access certain sites. What after that? Will you able to sent emails to your friends, and family without censorship?

    We had a case when a school used the camera on the laptops of his pupils to spy on them. In Eastern Europe, schools were forced to collect data about the parents, with their occupations, phone numbers, credit card numbers, data about their drivers licence, mail address… I was utterly dismayed when I saw that teachers forced parents to answer those questions!

    It has already become a sort of “mind police”.

    OSS, the way it works now, is a way to protect part of your privacy.

  101. oiaohm wrote, “Most people don’t want Microsofts deranged utopia either. Just they have not worked it out yet.”

    For the last migration I did in a school I asked a random sample of teachers what they thought about “7”. They were not impressed with Vista or Vista-debugged. They will be absolutely horrified with “8” on first appearance. For decades M$ has been telling Earth that greater complexity is the thing and they won. They actually convinced people that PCs had to slow down with bloat/complexity. Now those people are locked into XP and GNU/Linux will be more familiar to 1000 billion users of PCs than M$’s next product to crowd stuff out on retail shelves. I expect client revenue will be down a long way. I expect retailers will be dismayed.

  102. oiaohm says:

    Chris Weig
    http://hothardware.com/News/Minecraft-Developer-Wont-Certify-Game-For-Windows-8-/

    Most people don’t want Microsofts deranged utopia either. Just they have not worked it out yet.

  103. oiaohm says:

    Chris Weig lets just say we do what you say. Linux Desktop shuts down as you wish. Do you know what you will have.

    UEFI do you understand what this will mean. Is there any requirement to allow you to install old versions of windows. Answer no there was not before Linux Desktop people got into it. Due to pressure from the Linux world option to turn secure boot off on x86 was added. Yes had to threaten to sue.

    Linux has enough pressure to get some serous attention when it comes to secure boot and other things.

    A world without Linux will equal to upgrade OS have to upgrade hardware every time.

    Reality Chris Weig this is the last stand. Freedom to change you hardware will be won or lost over the next few years. There are reasons why FOSS developers are now working on making their own platforms going forwards.

    ch the reality is how many of those MS Office features does business need.

    Leading in features is only important if they are useful. The reality that MS will be using ooxml going forwards the number of hidden features MS will be able to have will reduce.

    Yes I will give libreoffice has been short a few key features like cmis.

    Even MS Office is short key features. Like abiwords means to display the same document to many users at once and have them all be able to edit it coopoerativally. Libreoffice is working on adding this feature.

  104. Chris Weig wrote, “Nobody wants your deranged utopia.”

    I don’t want Utopia either. No problems is a boring existence.

    Still FLOSS is the right way to do IT. It lowers costs and increases productivity of everyone in the supply-chain of PCs all the way to the end-user. The spinoff benefits for communities is great.

    If no one wants my stuff, why not just leave me alone to my miserable lonely existence? Why kick the street-begger? Are you a bully?

    BTW. The blog keeps hitting new highs in page-views every couple of months. This could be another one even with the troll-banning event. This is already the second-best month in the blog’s existence. Two days to go. Last month cheated. It had 31 days.

  105. Chris Weig says:

    Wow, what a fountain of knowledge you are, Pogson! Is this supposed to impress us? A half-assed SQL statement. Really?

    I was talking about a personal killfile. You still remember Usenet, don’t you?

    It’s times like this when I regret lacking the creativity to make the world a really better place by doing the right thing.

    Yes, certainly. It’s creativity you lack, too. But first and foremost you lack the understanding that a crappy blog about Linux is not magically making the world a better place. Fanatics are irrelevant when it comes to making the world a better place. Nobody wants your deranged utopia.

  106. DavidS says:

    I found the site in English:

    http://no.more.racketware.info/index

    It is a good read.

  107. Chris Weig wrote, “It’s a pity that Mr. Pogson’s programming skill don’t even suffice to implement such a simple thing.”

    Hmmm…
    “select count(comment_author) as comments_by_Weig from wp_comments where comment_author like ‘%Weig%’;
    +——————+
    | comments_by_Weig |
    +——————+
    | 321 |
    +——————+
    1 row in set (0.02 sec)”

    What do you think “delete from wp_comments where comment_author like ‘%Weig%’;” would do? It could be fun, like Big Brother making Chris Weig an “unperson”. It might break some data structure so I could do this instead:
    “update wp_comments set comment_content=’I am a twit.’ where comment_author like ‘%Weig%'”

    It’s times like this when I regret lacking the creativity to make the world a really better place by doing the right thing.

  108. DavidS says:

    Indeed. A mirror of the page existed in English, if I remember well. But if you read in French the pages on the site, you can see that it is still difficult to buy a PC without Windows.

    Here is an extract from the page (Google translate with some editing):

    — December 2010: the price of OEM Windows, a figure usually carefully hidden by professionals, is now revealed.
    — Since late 2008, Asus no longer requires the return of the computer prior to the payment of a lump sum (see our dedicated page).
    — June 24, 2008: Following the victory of the UFC-Que Choisir against Darty, Fnac posted, from autumn 2008 until the summer of 2011, a page dedicated to the repayment of operating systems. There was a list of some manufacturers procedures.

    What needs to change

    — Although forbidden, forced sale continues.
    — The detailed display of prices is not effective. What has been obtained from HP (Case 5 May 2011 won by UFC-Que-Choisir) must be generalized.
    — The content of software licenses is not available from vendors before purchase.
    — Consumers are still forced to pay for the software licenses.
    — Manufacturers of components inside the computer (wifi chip for example) are not forced to publish sufficient information to write a driver.
    — Since 1998, due to the inaction of successive governments, manufacturers and sellers are not yet obliged to comply with the regulations on abusive and unfair trade practices.

  109. Chris Weig says:

    skill -> skills

    Yes, an editing function is also sorely missed.

  110. Chris Weig says:

    I would love to be able to personally block Chris Weig (Not from the site)from my time line he really does have a most unfortunate manner.

    Your idea was suggested to Mr. Pogson by someone. Who was it again? That’s right, it was me.

    It’s a pity that Mr. Pogson’s programming skill don’t even suffice to implement such a simple thing.

  111. Satipera says:

    I would love to be able to personally block Chris Weig (Not from the site)from my time line he really does have a most unfortunate manner.

  112. DavidS wrote, “It is easier now, the laws have also evolve to prevent monopolistic behaviour, and you can buy a PC without OS, although the choice is still narrow.”

    The fact that consumers had to go to such extremes shows there is monopoly and it’s an illegal monopoly because there is real demand for GNU/Linux PCs. It’s simply not true that M$ has a “natural” monopoly because of superiority in performance.

    Governments are not protecting consumers well enough. Here in Canada, the anti-competition bureau only considers complaints from businesses. Since M$ has signed up all businesses, few complain… The system of regulation is broken.

    One can fairly easily build an ATX PC from parts at a competitive price but that’s not for everyone and it has its own problems like finding parts. That’s not possible for most other formats of personal computer except maybe the tiny embedded systems where M$ has no monopoly.

  113. Chris Weig says:

    Not really. I’m just re-reading MONSTER now, a superb Japanese manga with an equally superb Anime adaptation, and I just remembered these lines with which both manga and anime begin, them being the Japanese translation of the first four verses of the Revelation, chapter 13.

    Japanese Bible: Revelation 13:1

    The connection struck me as obvious this time:

    Pogson and his religious FLOSS posse are the ones who saw the beast coming out of the sea, and now they wage war against it. In their righteous, self-delusional ways.

    Who said that the Bible can’t still be relevant?

  114. DavidS says:

    I haven’t read the whole thread in detail, but I’ve seen a few remarks that deserve an answer.

    First, odf is an ISO standard, not Libreoffice’s standard. It doesn’t perhaps mean much in the USA, but here, in Europe, it is very important. It is recommended, though not imposed/enforced, by some European governments. Microsoft had to fight hard to get an ISO certification for his format too, and it had to make adequate filters in his office for odf.

    Then, about monopoly. On this page http://non.aux.racketiciels.info/, you can see how difficult it was to buy a PC in France without Windows. You had to refuse the EULA, ask for a refund, sue the OEM, and only after that get your money back. It is easier now, the laws have also evolve to prevent monopolistic behaviour, and you can buy a PC without OS, although the choice is still narrow.

  115. ch says:

    @Chris: I guess that’s a sample of Old English, oiaohm-style?

  116. Chris Weig says:

    わたしはまた、一匹の獣が海から上って来るのを見た。それには角が十本、頭が七つあり、それらの角には十の冠があって、頭には神を汚す名がついていた。

    わたしの見たこの獣はひょうに似ており、その足はくまの足のようで、その口はししの口のようであった。龍は自分の力と位と大いなる権威とを、この獣に与えた。

    その頭の一つが、死ぬほどの傷を受けたが、その致命的な傷もなおってしまった。そこで、全地の人々は驚きおそれて、その獣に従い、

    また、龍がその権威を獣に与えたので、人々は龍を拝み、さらに、その獣を拝んで言った、「だれが、この獣に匹敵し得ようか。だれが、これと戦うことができようか」。

  117. ch says:

    LibreOffice supported ODF and PDF better/before M$, docx too, I guess.

    So LO supports its standard (ODF) better, and MSO supports its standard (OOXML) better – big surprise. And guess which format is more widely used and thus more important in practical terms?

    PDF export came with MSO 2007, and MSO 2013 can import PDF. (And of course, all kinds of other solutions – from TinyPDF to Acrobat – have been around a long time.)

    Then there’s the fact that with LO one gets a few upgrades per annum instead of a few years per licence.

    That’s not necessarily a good thing – and absolutely no advantage given that MSO still leads in features. I’ll give you the master document (haven’t used it myself, so I wouldn’t know either way). But where else is LO actually better now?

  118. oiaohm says:

    Ch MS Word was not best in breed when it become common.

    LibreOffice writer does not glitch based on number of images inserted into a document.

    There are some very strange annoying limits in MS Word. So that people would require publisher todo some things.

    The way LibreOffice is segmented makes more sense.

  119. That’s too easy. LibreOffice supported ODF and PDF better/before M$, docx too, I guess. Then there’s the fact that with LO one gets a few upgrades per annum instead of a few years per licence. The “master document” feature works, too. Did M$ ever fix theirs?

  120. ch says:

    Oh, and BTW: How much experience do you have with Android, and with what non-free alternative did you compare?

  121. ch says:

    “LibreOffice sure beat other stuff I have used that was non-Free software.”

    Care to explain in which ways LO is supposedly superior to MSO? No, price and “good enough for me” don’t count here – you claimed it’s better, so please explain.

  122. kozmcrae wrote, ““best of breed software”
    That’s funny.”

    Amen. It’s as if oldman thinks every purveyor of software is “best of breed”. Inbreeding like M$ causes is known to propagate flaws.

    How about “worst of breed”: Internet Exploder, InActive Directory, That Other OS, all of its malware, phoney “7”, Vista, Excel (dates still not fixed, not supporting open standards until recently), and the ability of every application to crash or subvert the OS. ROFL! Caldera GNU/Linux back in 2000 was superior to that other OS and a few years later we had OpenOffice.org pretty well debugged and FireFox setting the standard. Of course good software will run on multiple OS with no particular problems but the apps that oldman seem to favour only run on one mostly. Weak.

  123. kozmcrae says:

    “best of breed software”

    That’s funny.

  124. The question was about monopoly power. M$ has monopoly power and is therefor a monopoly even if it is teetering on the brink of having to work for a living.

  125. oldman says:

    “District Court’s Findings of Fact:”

    None of which counted in the end Pog. Please stop recycling intermediate civil judgements as if they were final. Lying for your cause only makes you look stupid IMHO.

  126. JR says:

    @ Chris Weig

    Your comment refers ……

    “They can even get a refund “for a Windows license, should they “accidentally” acquire one with a computer.

    You really are naive!

  127. Chris Weig says:

    You wrote that I am wrong on all counts. Then please address the other three issues I raised.

    And I’d really recommend you buy an Economics 101 textbook, so that you might learn a thing or two about monopolies.

  128. Chris Weig is wrong on all counts. Reasonable people know M$ figures out how high the price should be without regard to consumers’ preferences.
    District Court’s Findings of Fact:

    “Microsoft’s actual pricing behavior is consistent with the proposition that the firm enjoys monopoly power in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems. The company’s decision not to consider the prices of other vendors’ Intel-compatible PC operating systems when setting the price of Windows 98, for example, is probative of monopoly power. One would expect a firm in a competitive market to pay much closer attention to the prices charged by other firms in the market. Another indication of monopoly power is the fact that Microsoft raised the price that it charged OEMs for Windows 95, with trivial exceptions, to the same level as the price it charged for Windows 98 just prior to releasing the newer product. In a competitive market, one would expect the price of an older operating system to stay the same or decrease upon the release of a newer, more attractive version. Microsoft, however, was only concerned with inducing OEMs to ship Windows 98 in favor of the older version. It is unlikely that Microsoft would have imposed this price increase if it were genuinely concerned that OEMs might shift their business to another vendor of operating systems or hasten the development of viable alternatives to Windows.


    Finally, it is indicative of monopoly power that Microsoft felt that it had substantial discretion in setting the price of its Windows 98 upgrade product (the operating system product it sells to existing users of Windows 95). A Microsoft study from November 1997 reveals that the company could have charged $49 for an upgrade to Windows 98 — there is no reason to believe that the $49 price would have been unprofitable — but the study identifies $89 as the revenue-maximizing price. Microsoft thus opted for the higher price.”

    Consumers do pay for the OS. They are on the bottom of the food-chain.

  129. Chris Weig says:

    That’s true, and I would not object to the world being that way if it weren’t for monopoly. Without competition for desktop OS there is no choice and monopoly pricing exists. M$ would be charging several times what it does now and adding restrictions to the EULA to steer business its way if we did not have choices.

    Insanity.

    1. You failed economics 101. A monopolist can’t set prices at will, even if he is the sole provider.

    2. Microsoft is not a monopolist.

    … but without competition on retail shelves consumers have no protection. They are paying ~$100 for an OS and ~$100 for an office suite they could get for $0 using GNU/Linux and LiberOffice. That’s not selling in a free market. That’s exploitation.

    Insanity.

    Consumers don’t have to pay for an OS. And they don’t have to pay for an office suite. There are computers available without OS. So these people can just install any old Linux distribution they want. They can even get a refund for a Windows license, should they “accidentally” acquire one with a computer.

    There is lots of FLOSS superior to non-Free software, e.g. vlc, GNU/Linux, Android/Linux and LibreOffice sure beat other stuff I have used that was non-Free software.

    The good thing is: you can run all this wonderful FLOSS software on the superior operating system, namely: Windows.

    If the world stopped producing and consuming just because some fool declared “best of breed” we would have no books, no science, no inventions, nothing beyond hunting and gathering.

    The “best of breed” is decided on by the market, you fool! And if the “best of breed” is no longer the best of breed, something else will come along and take its place.

  130. oldman wrote, “The world also does not need to reinvent the wheel or ignore best of breed software just because it costs money to license it.”

    That’s true, and I would not object to the world being that way if it weren’t for monopoly. Without competition for desktop OS there is no choice and monopoly pricing exists. M$ would be charging several times what it does now and adding restrictions to the EULA to steer business its way if we did not have choices. Fortunately those who have IT-expertise do have choice which benefits Munich and others but without competition on retail shelves consumers have no protection. They are paying ~$100 for an OS and ~$100 for an office suite they could get for $0 using GNU/Linux and LiberOffice. That’s not selling in a free market. That’s exploitation.

    There is lots of FLOSS superior to non-Free software, e.g. vlc, GNU/Linux, Android/Linux and LibreOffice sure beat other stuff I have used that was non-Free software. If the world stopped producing and consuming just because some fool declared “best of breed” we would have no books, no science, no inventions, nothing beyond hunting and gathering.

  131. oldman says:

    “The world does not owe M$ and its “partners” a living.”

    The world also does not need to reinvent the wheel or ignore best of breed software just because it costs money to license it. The world does not need to put up with “good enough” either, but can search out fitness in function and feature wherever it lies, be it open or closed commercial or free, Each to his/her/their own need.

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