Increasing Market Share NOW

I read a thread on Debian User Forums about market share of GNU/Linux and how to increase it. There were some good suggestions but I added my own. The main point is that an individual can do only so much. To get the best result from your efforts, you should exploit force-multipliers. I mentioned youths, retail outlets, recycling PCs and governments.

Read it all at Debian User Forums • View topic – Let's increase our market share NOW.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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62 Responses to Increasing Market Share NOW

  1. kozmcrae says:

    Thorsten Rahn wrote:

    “Really, does your being pathetic know no ends? Apparently not. No arguments, no clues, no nothing. A typical Cult of FLOSS member beyond saving.”

    I think I’ll just leave that one alone. You’re doing a much better job than I am of degrading your image.

  2. Ivan says:

    The reality here is other than maintaining current there is no plans to improve FreeBSD design at all.

    The reality, Pete, is that you are fudding per your usual M.O.

    Nowhere in your link does it mention dropped support for any platform and it clearly states:

    To help facilitate the XDC discussion, I’ve put together a straw-man
    proposal for an updated Linux OpenGL ABI. I’m sending this out now to
    start generating feedback and ideas, to help make the XDC discussion as
    productive as possible.

    The Phrase “Straw-man proposal” would indicate that this evidence of future plans of dropped support is something entirely different…

  3. Thorsten Rahn says:

    @kozmcrae:

    Really, does your being pathetic know no ends? Apparently not. No arguments, no clues, no nothing. A typical Cult of FLOSS member beyond saving.

  4. oiaohm wrote, “Web numbers count home usage fairly well under count business usage. Linux current desktop market is business.”

    It’s the other way around in California. Google’s few thousand PCs raises the level of GNU/Linux usage in California, pop. 37million, from a low level to ~9% or so. California without Google (Sunnyvale, California) shows a tiny level for GNU/Linux although we know there are millions of GNU/Linux users in California. I suspect Google is over-counted because the users are in a business domain or Google is somehow partnered with NetApplications. See A Measure of the Bias of Net Applications Against GNU/Linux

    and Before and After the Filter

    There are other anomalies like Brazil, where Walmart’s best-sellers run GNU/Linux has a tiny number for GNU/Linux in NetApplications measures. M$ even had estimates far above NetApplications numbers a decade ago and GNU/Linux has done nothing but increase in popularity since those times.

  5. kozmcrae says:

    Thorsten Rahn wrote:

    ““But Linux runs CERN! And supercomputers!! … F**k you, you M$ shill!!!””

    Your words Thorsten, not mine. Gee Thorsten, you kind of lost it there. Maybe I shouldn’t have used CERN as an example. Would the New York Stock Exchange have been better?

    Why don’t you take 10 deep breaths before you decide to post next time.

  6. oiaohm says:

    To understand what is going on understanding Goobuntu is critical.

    That is a hardened version of Ubuntu.

    Note you are not allowed to use any old Linux in Google. It must be hardened.

    Google you require special permission to use Windows. Really special then the network access of that machine is highly restricted.

    This goes back to the google breaches in china. Entry points was a Microsoft Windows computer.

    Since then Google is taking data security serous-ally of the desktop OS.

    The work on Linux at the moment is not only to produce a usable desktop also a secure one. One that gives attackers least chance of getting into your system.

    So JR its not as straight forwards as it seams. Microsoft Windows is basically blacklisted at Google. Yet they are still able to run a business without it. This is not the only company where this is the case. Microsoft always wants to pay that they are cheap or are doing it for no reason.

    Drone control usa mil is migrating to Linux same reason security.

    Linux killer feature is that is stronger than Windows on security. Downside the desktop needs work to fix some major holes like X11.

    Governments that are not the USA wanting not to run Windows makes sense. The windows update servers source from the USA and the USA in time of war can control those servers.

    There are many reasons why Governments should not run Windows exclusively.

    Remember wikimedia counts by IP. So how many Internet connections do 15 000 computers have with different IP address when its munich. The answer is 2 the primary and the backup.

    Web numbers count home usage fairly well under count business usage. Linux current desktop market is business.

    This is where everything goes wrong basically we have no numbers that really do what businesses are using on the desktop. Funny enough Microsoft is one of the companies that really could get these numbers. Most companies had taken out a Microsoft Volume license at some point. This allows on site inspect by an inspector of Microsoft choosing. This could be a true independent.

    Since this is the case. Microsoft could do a real marketing move but they don’t. This should be enough to make you wonder why don’t that. They can get the most exact numbers of what lot of business are really using but they don’t.

  7. Thorsten Rahn wrote, “someone had the audacity to point out that Linux on desktops is not happening”.

    Someone would be wrong then. GNU/Linux is happening on the desktop. Some people just refuse to accept that it has any share at all. That’s why the fiction of ~1% and why some people even bother to visit my blog.

    Clearly GNU/Linux is widely used. It would be hard to point out any class of people or tasks that people do with IT that do not involve GNU/Linux somehow. Some examples that trolls pass out are colour printing (which I do often, but not for a living) designing stuff, (which I do a lot), and making multimedia. All of these things can and are being done by people with GNU/Linux, just not the way the trolls demand, with that other OS. An OS is just a convenient few layers of software on a PC. The applications do a lot of the work and GNU/Linux has thousands of them. Enough for just about any task. GNU/Linux is over the hump of availability of applications, hardware, graphics, and every other barrier the trolls trot out. They just want to waste time.

    Anyway, while the trolls waste time, I have a life and harvested pumpkin and made the first pumpkin pie of this season, and welded another table for the greenhouse and enjoyed a much-needed rain-shower. Did I mention the little woman loves toasted pumpkin seeds?

  8. please make the distinction…

    Please make some honest effort to determine and honor the context of the thread before going off on another stupid rant and playing with word definitions. The issue here is the number of users who have adopted desktop Linux. That is very plain to see if you are not just trying to be cute.

  9. Thorsten Rahn says:

    Linux is used everywhere for just about every purpose under the Sun by every kind of person imaginable. You are either out of touch with reality or you have an agenda that can not accept the existence of a vibrant Linux ecosystem.

    And yet, the only example you could cite was — CERN! You’re like a little child who throws a tantrum because someone had the audacity to point out that Linux on desktops is not happening. And all you can do is shout: “But Linux runs CERN! And supercomputers!! … F**k you, you M$ shill!!!”

    Go play atom smashing, little kozmcrae.

  10. JR wrote, “I seem to think that Google uses linux on their servers albeit there own rendition therof.

    I would hardly call that minor usage.”

    Google also uses Goobuntu GNU/Linux desktops, which manages to skew all of USA numbers on NetApplications…

  11. kozmcrae says:

    TM Suppository wrote:

    “Like I said in my post, the people using it are die hards. People with an emotional attachment or an agenda that lets them ignore the flaws.”

    Ah, the mythic cellar dwelling Linux user. Somehow, TM forgets about CERN. You know, the super powerful atom smasher the proved the existence of the Higgs Boson? They are your so called emotionally attached Linux users. They have made great scientific discoveries with Linux and will make many more.

    Linux is used everywhere for just about every purpose under the Sun by every kind of person imaginable. You are either out of touch with reality or you have an agenda that can not accept the existence of a vibrant Linux ecosystem.

  12. JR says:

    @ Clarence Moon

    You are right Clarence my comprehension is deplorable but I suppose that is what you get for not attending school.

    You used the word minor “uses” not users so please make the distinction between linux on the server and linux on the desktop.

    I seem to think that Google uses linux on their servers albeit there own rendition therof.

    I would hardly call that minor usage.

  13. Clarence Moon says:

    So Google and IBM are just minor users of Linux and they use Linux just to piss of Microsoft.

    Your reading comprehension is deplorable, JR. However did you get out of high school? The state test must have been a challenge!

    Denying satisfaction is hardly the same as “pissing off”. Think proaction.

    Also, how many employees do you think the combination of IBM and Google have? A million? Hardly half of that! And how many of them actually use a computer at their job? That boils down to only about 0.03% of the computer users in the world, even if all of them were to be counted. I would class that as “minor” myself as well as suspect that quite a few of them actually use Windows on their own or even at their job.

  14. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon you got it wrong FOSS inside governments and multi department companies shows increased productivity in a lot of cases compared to thoses without FOSS. Its all todo with money.

    If a department uses there own money to pay for X software they don’t want to share it. Since it came out of their budget other departments so pay for their software out of their budget.

    If the software is FOSS they will share it. Reason they did not have to pay for it so did not come out their budget.

    Biggest effect is using FOSS server side. This allows common storage for records to form and faster responses.

    –Any failure to perform is generally accepted as just part of the government’s lack of efficiency in all matters.–
    This is part of government closed source usage.

    Mysql and Postgresql databases might sound like silly options until you think how am I going to get 5 departments to agree to chip in from their budget then having them arguing over what percentage they should pay. This does not have to be a cash strapped departments to have this problem.

    Then if you did get the closed source implemented across the 5 departments you will find someone has under counted there staff that will be using so you are over cal and you are back around the table argueing about where the money is coming from.

    This is the problem closed source you will spend more time arguing about who is paying than doing the job. So the result implementing share CRM’s and other items goes in the too hard basket so the over all performance suffers.

    FOSS and Linux does have its place partially in these multi department thing that you can get into brawls over who is paying. Right we will implement this on for zero software cost and use existing servers bingo it happens. Might not be as perfect as using closed source but at least its implemented and assisting the process not bogged down by who is paying.

    Google minor use 50 percent of there machines are Linux. Next biggest is OS X. Windows almost does not register.

    Large like Google, IBM and Apple it pays to have some FOSS to reduce department to department brawls.

    Clarence Moon really that MS Office one is pointless.

    I can tell you what I learnt in high school is no longer current. It was not current the day I walked out the gate. Learning the basic ideas and reading manuals and using multi training guides is far more effective for a student. That way they can alter to what ever nasty alteration Microsoft decides to do to MS Office or if the business is not using MS Office.

  15. JR says:

    @ Clarence Moon

    Wow! Once again your insights into all things IT never cease to amaze me.
    If only I knew wtf you were talking about.

    So Google and IBM are just minor users of Linux and they use Linux just to piss of Microsoft.

    Oh well each to their own.

  16. The community is a mixture…

    You leave out an important element of the Linux user classes as well as a minor one. A significant use for Linux is found in the IT departments of cash-starved enterprises, usually a government group and often one dealing with education, such as the experiences that Mr. Pogson often relates. In our business we see these customers frequently. Frequently enough that we have created versions of our UNIX product lines to service their needs.

    These public entities have a common thread in that they do not need to produce a profit and are always a budgetary cost rather than a profit center. Any failure to perform is generally accepted as just part of the government’s lack of efficiency in all matters. For the IT managers involved, they can avoid expenses in terms of software license purchases and so use whatever funds are freed up to either increase staff or raise salaries or both.

    The license fee savings accrue to the power base of the department and any lack of responsiveness of the resultant system is shrugged off with some sort of excuse or even adamant claim that things are as good as they can be. For example, the native schooled child in the Canadian outback that did not become familiar with MS Office methods and use who ends up in the city with no marketable skills is said to have “learned the principles” and is thought to be able to apply them to future learning. Alas, the other person, with here and now skills, gets the office job and the native ends up waiting tables.

    Minor uses for Linux are found as well at companies like Google or IBM or Apple where it is a matter of pride for them to eschew using Windows so as not to give Microsoft the satisfaction of being able to point to their using these products. This is the “cut off their nose to spite their face” response to the realities of business politics.

  17. Yonah says:

    Yeah, and I STILL want the source of his claim that Opera was using code. He never did own up to that one. Go easy on him, though. I think he’s just lonely.

  18. oiaohm says:

    oldman
    –The only thing that counts is delivering a product that is both superior to and a complete substitute for what already exists is available and in use.–

    Sorry the superior claim is not a requirement or complete substitute. MS Dos was not superior or a complete substitute for what CP/M and others could do.

    The fact that Linux Desktop has not had a clean run up until this point. Means we really don’t know how fast Linux Desktop can develop.

    The wayland and gstreamer design alterations will lead to a desktop with high security integrity than OS X or Windows.

    If Linux was not close 80/20 replacement and higher would not be possible Oldman.

    LibreOffice is getting a clean run at the moment to catch up. That in itself reduces the difference.

    A key metric you misses is affordable.

    oldman we have seen Microsoft come back from failures so why cannot anyone else.

    The reality is what is coming is not small changes to the Linux Desktop world. Lot of focus on end users not servers.

    Current failed state of the Linux Desktop has many causes why it failed to deliver as much as it could.

    Some is simple case of greener fields else where.

    Without understand the causes of the failure you cannot really understand if the causes are gone Oldman.

    This is the simple reality current time Linux Desktop development has less blocks in way to progress than any point in Linux history. 18 years+ is a down right long time to wait for road blocks to clear.

    Microsoft is not uncatchable.

  19. oldman says:

    Hamster

    If you think that all your excuse making amounts to anything you are kidding yourself. THe only thing that counts is what is and what is is that linux as a desktop is a fail as a comsumer product.

    The only thing that counts is delivering a product that is both superior to and a complete substitute for what already exists is available and in use.

    The linux desktop isnt even close and you know it!

  20. oiaohm says:

    Ivan
    http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/mesa-dev/2012-September/027295.html
    This is the Nvidia lead. The reality here is other than maintaining current there is no plans to improve FreeBSD design at all.

    At this point FreeBSD and others still have a chance to come into line Ivan.

    Ivan really you need to be more upto date with what is going on.

    Also you need to go back to your link and take a nice closer look Ivan. FreeBSD x64 particularly. Nvidia never bothered porting the legacy support as they did for Linux. Solaris they have ended one version of legacy support early.

    These are equals to shots across bow. If they keep their head in sand they are going to wake up with the hardware makers back turned saying stiff. The post on Mesa if the freebsd guys don’t say they want it too they will not get it. So be left behind because they are not important.

    Allwinner A10/A13 are not mythical chips same with the later generations. Or the fact that Allwinner is a code submitter to the Linux kernel. TM Repository.

    The company name sound mythical buts its a true real company. AllWinner Technology Co. Ltd.

    TM Repository
    –It’s funny because around that time people were able to get Linux running on just about anything; Playstations, Dreamcasts, Nokias, etc. So why not the desktop?–
    The sad part is some of those run Linux better than on the x86 hardware of the same spec.

    Getting Linux to run on all that stuff did not mean they were getting graphics to run properly.

    Getting graphics to run properly need the interface information or direct maker assistance or lots and lots of time.

    FixItYourself open source driver programs like reverse engineering Nvidia drivers is an exact attempt todo that. Same with other drivers.

    The reality when it comes to hardware you can only get so far without the hardware makers support.

    Also until 2003 with the Utah GLX looked like the core would be fixed. In fighting between hardware makers and break of trust by nvidia caused that to fail. So there was no need to start reverse engineering projects before that point in time.

    The way Nvidia walked away from Utah GLX caused lot of other issues of distrust of open source projects from video card makers and other hardware makers.

    So if Utah GLX had lived when MS updated there video stack with Vista the video stack on Linux with closed source would have been updated as well. So we are 5 years over due for a driver design refresh at least.

    TM Repository what has happened is a set of disasters. That is Microsoft ever had faced they would not be where they are either.

    You think about if Microsoft had a Utah GLX class disaster with its video card makers. Your windows 7 would still have to be using XP and 2000 design drivers giving a far worse experience.

    Its not a single event. This is what you see if you time line the goings on. Like when OpenOffice went open source. Positive right. Not 100 percent. koffice that was far more feature complete at the time lost developers to OpenOffice because it was cross platform. Then you got stuck that Sun was wanting copyright assigned to them.

    So we went from a office suite for Linux that was developing quite well to OpenOffice that basically stalled.

    2000 the landing of the ADS disrupted server progress of Linux. So tightened up the money to be spend working on the desktop.

    TM Repository the reality up until this point Linux has not had a single clean run to attempt to get the desktop. About every 2 to 3 years something was going on to disrupt progress.

    This blocked Linux from developing the key critical mass.

    Most of it not to with doing alterations on a wim.

    List of problems. TM Repository
    1) False promises. (that the FOSS world believed) Big one is that OpenOffice would have a independent foundation to Sun setup to run the project. Never happened so koffice and other developing FOSS Office suites got left by there developers for a promise that was never delivered. This is why LibreOffice fork happened so fast. The OpenOffice third party developers were fully betrayed.
    2) In fighting between hardware makers. Utah GLX and others.
    3) Believe that Microsoft could not be touched on desktop so attempt to make a competitor got no full time resources.

    Microsoft had 3 with there failed PPC clone of Windows 2000. This myth that the Wintel relationship was unbreakable stalled development of lots of things.

  21. JR says:

    @ TM Repository

    Thank you for clearing that up.

  22. Ivan says:

    Nvidia has no more major plans to keep on releasing drivers for BSD or Solaris or any of the other Unix’s.

    Really, Pete? Latest FreeBSD drivers. Oddly enough same version as the linux drivers and no mention of dropped support for any platform.

    Maybe you should stop lying.

  23. oiaohm, is your strategy to bury the argument in as much text as possible?

    You counter an argument about linux fanaticism with a hypothetical situation about a mythical chip made in China?

    You’re off on a tangent or trying to misdirect.

  24. “Who or what exactly are the linux users ?

    1. Fanatics
    2. Enthusiasts or
    3. Die hards or
    all three

    Just curious.”

    The community is a mixture, hence my use of “and”.

    Enthusiasts are productive, technical people who like to tinker, contribute source/fixes, and generally aren’t vocal because they aren’t very emotionally invested in their hobbies.

    Fanatics are loud, emotionally driven, agenda driven and typically contribute nothing. They’re making up for their impotency, like the most dedicated sports fan who can’t even play the sports they so diligently follow.

    Die hards are generally synonymous with enthusiasts but might be just emotionally invested enough to not be able to admit to themselves they should probably just get a mac.

  25. oiaohm says:

    JR the issue is so far its none of the above.

    Lets say I am making a device in china. Cheapest CPU might not run Windows. To be correct most likely does not run Windows. I still need a OS. Microsoft does not service this market.

    The force currently behind Linux are like Allwinner from china, Texus Instruments, Samsung, AMD and Intel and stacks more.

    Why they all make chips that Windows will not run on. They NEED an OS. Lot of these devices had been targeted at routers and other small devices.

    2007 the netbook proved there was another possible market they could open up.

    So each of them entered a different section of the FOSS base. Intel lead found out to his shock horror that the claim by FOSS Enthusiasts developers in 1994 that X11 not fixable due to the fault being in the protocol itself turned out to be true. This is why directfb and ywindows appeared in the Linux world and mostly died due to lack of hardware maker support. Since hardware makers were taking the point of view its fixable X11 support is all we need to provide.

    The reality here is that Linux failed to get hardware makers in its corner. When we come forward today this is different.

    Since its now the hardware makers driving the core future Linux development is going to get interesting. Some of the new acceleration methods coming for Linux cannot be done in windows because the design of windows NT don’t support them. The advantage of working with the hardware makers and allowing them to alter the kernel.

    Linux is moving past having to reverse as much.

  26. “TM Repository reality without hardware makers support Linux could not do a proper run at the desktop.”

    I can hardly understand what you’re saying through your butchered English, but I think what you were trying to say was “it wasn’t Linux’s fault because hardware support was poor”. Well you have the source, why not FixItYourself(TM)?

    It’s funny because around that time people were able to get Linux running on just about anything; Playstations, Dreamcasts, Nokias, etc. So why not the desktop?

    “Enthusiasts and fanatics is pre the hardware makers support.”

    And car enthusiasts are pre-Honda Civic, it doesn’t mean that with modernization that the enthusiasts and fanatics disappear. The same is true for Linux with new enthusiasts and fanatics joining every day. Unfortunately, their casual user-base is incredibly small unless you count Android, but as you guys have pointed out “Android isn’t Linux”.

  27. oiaohm says:

    TM Repository reality without hardware makers support Linux could not do a proper run at the desktop.

    Enthusiasts and fanatics is pre the hardware makers support.

    You are setting yourself up for a future pounding TM Repository.

    While Enthusiast and fanatics run X.org project it bit rotted. Its the hardware makers investment in the last 4 years that have seen the core change.

    TM Repository wayland and dri2 and KMS are all stepping away from the way old Unix systems are designed completely.

    –The enthusiasts keep tinkering for fun–
    Creating a stable video stack is not fun. Enthusiasts are not behind the recent core changes.

    Interesting enough those core changes are coming from the embedded world. A market where Linux has done very well.

    Redesign of video stack started 2007 2012 we are seeing the hardware makers sign up.

    Over that 18 years how has Linux done in every other market other than Desktop. TM Repository very well in fact.

    Full time paid resources went into markets Linux could take and could get the support to take.

    Something you don’t get by 2002-2007 the core of the Linux world had basically given up on having a desktop presence. So no full time development resources went into it.

    18 years of Linux is not a on going push with critical mass behind it. The .net boom saw Linux focus more on servers than desktop because that was where the money was.

    TM Repository so 2007 to now you are starting to see a funded push. This is not enthusiasts this is full time developers been sent in by hardware makers to sort out particular projects to make it usable with their products. This is where all these major changes are coming from.

    ch
    –“this is a hard truth but you have to swallow it: If you’ve got something that for whatever reason nobody is willing to pay you money for, that’s the world’s way of telling you to go do something else.”–
    True to a point except Linux development is being paid for. Since 2007 and the netbooks proved their was a market for something non Microsoft. Android also comes out of this.

  28. JR says:

    @ TM Repository

    Your comments refer:

    “Because Linux is for enthusiasts and fanatics. The enthusiasts keep tinkering for fun, the fanatics keep screaming that they’re going to bring about a software judgement day.”

    “Meanwhile, Linux is free, Linux has the same word of mouth marketing, but the user experience is terrible, the developer experience is terrible, the number of useful apps are few and far between, all those apps exist on other platforms, etc. In other words, thanks to a bad user experience that only the die hards will tolerate, LINUX CAN’T EVEN SELL ITSELF.”

    Who or what exactly are the linux users ?

    1. Fanatics
    2. Enthusiasts or
    3. Die hards or
    all three

    Just curious.

  29. “You point of the car club is kind void. Old cars are not getting new stuff.”

    Old cars are getting plenty of new stuff. Watch any classic car/hot rod show and there are companies out there who’s only job is to make better parts for old cars. More efficient air intakes for Delorians so they don’t overheat, clamshell hoods that don’t leak for the Lotus, etc. These are new parts that fit old cars.

    Their community is exponentially larger than the FOSS community, but they have no delusions about the fact that they represent a drop in the bucket when it comes to the industry they belong to.

    Gmail is free, had no marketing, but managed to gain over 423 million users since 2004 (it went out of beta in 2007). Meanwhile, desktop Linux is 18 years and has only has a single digit fraction of that. Why? Because Linux is for enthusiasts and fanatics. The enthusiasts keep tinkering for fun, the fanatics keep screaming that they’re going to bring about a software judgement day.

  30. ch says:

    Quote:
    “this is a hard truth but you have to swallow it: If you’ve got something that for whatever reason nobody is willing to pay you money for, that’s the world’s way of telling you to go do something else.”

    from:
    http://www.fakesteve.net/2006/11/its-official-java-now-worth-nothing.html

  31. oiaohm says:

    Thorsten Rahn wayland is the first true Linux Desktop.

    Its not going to be something that has come down the Unix tree.

    ssorbom wayland will have xwayland as legacy support for a while. http://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html Launch on demand is X11 under wayland. So Linux users will be able to use all X11 applications and all wayland applications. With the wayland applications able to be hidden from the X11 applications and each other.

    Also note the point about root-less X. x.org is reduced to a user level application under linux just like it is under windows with wayland.

    Wayland itself also runs as a user level application. There is no root privilege required to run desktop with DRI2 and KMS. So no more breach the X11 server and be able to gain privilege.

    So basically the Wayland way of running X11 is more secure. Any privileged raised application you will want running as Wayland to prevent other applications control it.

    ssorbom
    –Where will this leave efforts like BSD when they are porting GNU\Linux applications?–
    We don’t need to care any more. Sad part is BSD and others did not get the memo. They were told to take part in freedesktop.org they have decide not to and the Linux world with the backing of hardware makers have gone ahead anyhow. Result is what happens next.

    Nvidia has no more major plans to keep on releasing drivers for BSD or Solaris or any of the other Unix’s. Same with most other video card makers. Basically since these did not take part the hardware support is going to be cut off.

    FreeBSD is seeing the writing on the wall. They have no option bar to support KMS and DRI2 most likely udev and the hangers on to stay in the game. Linux world does not have to even worry if in the process it crushes BSD and other Unix’s flat. Hardware makers are saying don’t care.

    Hard reality BSD and the other Unix’s don’t have the hardware makers support to even attempt a run at the desktop.

    Linux keeps option to be a desktop because of Android. Wayland is the first time Linux is truly able to give the legacy system the finger and have the support of the hardware makers. The Secuirty People Linux world has wanted to be rid of X11 for years. Not enough control to prevent attacker puppeting system.

    Thorsten Rahn the reality here is a scary one. BSD and the unix’s never released an android like device. So no longer have the hardware makers blessing. I really don’t like to think what this could mean for Microsoft.

    This will be the first time Linux will get to stand as a desktop on its merits without being forced to put historic design interfaces between application and the hardware just to have driver support.

    This is what I am talking about what is going on at the moment has never happened in history.

    Normally the posix world would stay fairly much compatible with each other. From this point on its every OS kernel for themselves. Win the support of hardware developers or die due to lack of drivers.

  32. ssorbom says:

    Regarding X,
    Even Waylands FAQ seems to suggest that X isn’t going anywhere soon. I could be wrong, but it sounds like even if Wayland replaces X as the default in GNU/Linux, we could still get the best of both worlds:
    http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_7

    I wonder how this will effect the other UNIXes though. A quick search of wikipedia suggests that Wayland will be Linux specific.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)#Design

    Where will this leave efforts like BSD when they are porting GNU\Linux applications?

  33. Thorsten Rahn says:

    Wayland will save the Linux desktop.

    Another ridiculous claim where one has to ask you people: what have you been smoking?

  34. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson the X11 protocol allows the application to send requestion to have the network send screen back.

    This can be one mother of a huge disaster with X11. Since lots of applications doing this can consume the network bandwidth.

    Wayland does not work by default Application can only see itself. Html5 back-end to toolkits same thing application can only see self. Application cannot trigger huge network traffic pulls by requesting to be sent picture of desktop many times over.

    ssh security around X11 does not make matters better it makes it worse. The other issue in X11 is that a program running on one server can send direct messages to a program running on another all by the client side X11.

    X11 has out lived is usefulness. html5 and wayland backends address some major problems.

    You know the X11 eyes they don’t work under wayland because a wayland application cannot follow mouse pointer when mouse pointer leaves it window.

    This is the problem even under windows applications can monitor the other applications running with them.

    Wayland kills this issue dead. Html 5 is still dealing a little with cross site attacks.

    Linux is hardening for the next round of security threats.

  35. oiaohm wrote of X, “unfortunately wonderfully insecure.”

    There are other layers of security. The applications don’t get to see the screen because it’s not on the server, it’s on the client, where the Xserver is. One can also use ssh if security of that sort matters. I have not ever felt the need except as authentication passwordlessly. Everything is insecure on the network but the network is priceless. There is a cost/benefit. One would not use plain X over the web but it makes a lot of sense in a LAB on a private LAN. What one loses in any frailty of X one makes up in efficiency on the server. A lot of businesses like X because the client doesn’t actually receive the raw data. That stays on the server.

  36. oiaohm says:

    TM Repository particular countries Linux is significant for it desktop usage.

    You point of the car club is kind void. Old cars are not getting new stuff.

    TM Repository
    –Yet no car buff would claim that their operations are some how significant in the world wide auto industry.–
    This is also false. There is a prototype car maker who is a car buff who would claim that his operations are significant in the world wide auto industry.

    The ones making new have a habit of being significant. Features first design in KDE have appeared in OS X and Windows default installs.

    So define significant is hard.

  37. TM generalizes absurdly when he wrote, “the people using it are die hards.”

    Nope. All kinds of people use GNU/Linux. Some may be diehards. I am not. I am so familiar with GNU/Linux that I would not think of using anything else. I think my GNU/Linux installations will outlive me, not the other way around.

  38. oiaohm says:

    TM Repository rome was not built in a day.

    TM Repository if you be truthful Windows not not perform that well as a thin client server. Mostly because its missing particular tech that allow better memory usage and some of the better user to user resource management things.

    Reality we have not had a OS that has been a good all rounder all types of desktop usage requriements. TM Repository.

    Saying diehards is really insulting. Some cases it a performance difference. So 50 percent of google development staff are diehards?? I think not. Or 96% of people in the Malaysian Government are diehards?? Again I think not.

    TM Repository your logic does not pass the test of common sense.

    Linux is not going away. Linux is going to improve massively. This is why the people complaining over binary drivers are in for a shock. 3.7 kernel with its backports.

    The list of end user effect problems in this 12 months are being taken on serous-ally. No just shoved to the corner of room and forgotten about.

    The issue here is there are areas with without question Linux majorities. Question is if those can be expanded.

    TM Repository and just like all shake ups you are going to see people complain.

  39. And the difference between the Linux community and the classic car community is that the latter is vastly larger. Yet no car buff would claim that their operations are some how significant in the world wide auto industry. They recognize it’s a community of hobbyists, enthusiasts, and rich men and their toys (Shuttleworth anyone?)

  40. “Well, why do so many people use it, enjoy it and prefer it if it so terrible? Proof by assuming those things and coming to a contradiction. Therefor it is not terrible. QED”

    Like I said in my post, the people using it are die hards. People with an emotional attachment or an agenda that lets them ignore the flaws. You’re a classic example.

    Not to mention the “many” you speak of is vastly eclipsed by every other OS on the market. Or at least, visiting wikipedia. It’s a community of enthusiasts the same way classic car owners are vastly outnumbered by modern Civic owners.

  41. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson there is a catch. Zero client devices don’t appear like normal thin clients on the server.

    http://plugable.com/ These appear as exact video cards on the server.

    There are network zeroclients as well also appear as video card on server. Prime support matches up to zeroclients.

    –That may be true for multimedia but except for gaming and multimedia production, the average user won’t notice anything different.–

    For non networked wayland is faster and tear free graphics. Reason less buffers less ram usage.

    Robert Pogson
    –Being able to make a desktop out of windows from multiple servers is a wonderful flexibility.–

    Also unfortunately wonderfully insecure. Because all those applications can try to capture the screen and control other applications.

    Weston the reference compositor already has done webm video stream as output. So yes it will be possible to video stream desktop or application. Remember in Wayland an application cannot where its placed on the screen or any other applications.

    The security side of Wayland will make it very simple to turn individual applications into video streams. Also most toolkits are getting html 5 back end. So a lot of remote usage will be placed by html 5.

    Html 5 support proper encryption between client and server to reduce eaves dropping.

    The general desktop and zeroclients this is what wayland takes over from X11.

    The remote clients will most likely be html 5. The result is there is will be no need for X11. Firefox OS could like replace you thin client end images you use today.

    –Being able to make a desktop out of windows from multiple servers is a wonderful flexibility.–
    You can already do this using html 5 and be more secure than X11.

    Everything has to come to a end.

  42. oiaohm says:

    Due to the major design shifts most of the TM Repository notes on Linux will need to be deleted or archived as historic because they will no longer relate to the design going forwards.

    At the same time Linux is picking up steam that is closed source games.

    Everything is ticking down to TM Repository doomsday. The complete plan of attack freetards you never considered for one min they were listening to the defects. Just it took a long time to be able to respond to them.

    http://community.kde.org/KWin/Wayland we are already well down the path to the end of X11.
    https://github.com/aritger/linux-opengl-abi-proposal
    The closed source opengl driver makers are round tabling on how those should be done going forwards.

    After X11 is gone the next focus will be Audio. You can tell this from the developer activity.

    The last 4 years has been the most desktop work of all of Linux history.

  43. TM wrote, “the user experience is terrible, the developer experience is terrible, the number of useful apps are few and far between,”

    Well, why do so many people use it, enjoy it and prefer it if it so terrible? Proof by assuming those things and coming to a contradiction. Therefor it is not terrible. QED

  44. oiaohm wrote, “The reality is once Linux leaves X11 the Linux Desktop will be a way different beast.”

    That may be true for multimedia but except for gaming and multimedia production, the average user won’t notice anything different. I wait and see how networking the display will work with Wayland. It seems to me a fork is in order, not replacing X. X is nearly perfect for a networked display as in thin clients and composite monitors etc. I don’t see Wayland being any improvement in that. For schools, X is very important because thin clients work so well. Being able to make a desktop out of windows from multiple servers is a wonderful flexibility.

  45. oiaohm says:

    TM Repository
    –Meanwhile, Linux is free, Linux has the same word of mouth marketing, but the user experience is terrible, the developer experience is terrible, the number of useful apps are few and far between, all those apps exist on other platforms, etc. In other words, thanks to a bad user experience that only the die hards will tolerate, LINUX CAN’T EVEN SELL ITSELF.–

    So even with all that. Linux migrations have been going on in increasing numbers. So the CAN’T even sell itself is false because it has been. If Linux did not sell redhat would not be a 1 billion+ dollar company.

    Really what will happen when the user experience improves. Wayland soon will go 1.0.

    Gstreamer and others are taking advantage of dma buf. So hardware acceleration for video and audio playback will work.

    Wayland uses way less memory than X11 due to less duplicate buffers. YUV to RGB is doable by the video card in Wayland.

    The reality is once Linux leaves X11 the Linux Desktop will be a way different beast. Opengl stack being used for wayland is EGL. What is the Opengl used by Android EGL. X11 is GLX. So the future Linux desktop will have more core code in common with Android than the current X11.

    The reality is we are about to see a fusion between past Linux Desktop users and Android development. Android is the force that has allowed Linux to break free of X11.

    TM Repository basically you are in the middle of a major Linux Design shift at the moment.

    The design shifts include some quite major changes. Like dropping virtual terminal mode support out of the Linux kernel and into user space. So KMS becomes the dominate graphical output subsystem of Linux.

    There are a lot of arguments from the Frame-buffer camp because that is also lining up for the axe.

    TM Repository basically you want us to give up just before the system goes threw a true overhaul. What fear overhauled Linux might kick Microsofts ass.

    Mind you its the overhaul you guys have called for.

    TM Repository basically you are out of good technical arguments.

  46. Linux is free. Any profit-earning company couldn’t compete with it on price. So what are the other factors preventing it from reaching mass appeal? Marketing? Quality?

    I’ll make comparisons to GMail since it falls into the same categories.

    GMail is free; Most users are not on Google Apps nor pay extra since storage limits are always climbing. GMail had virtually no marketing beyond word of mouth; There were no major TV spots when it launched, no giant banners hanging down the CN Tower, and it stayed in perpetual beta for several years.
    GMail is good, giving users what they want with arguably the best web mail client experience available.
    The point is, GMail SOLD ITSELF!

    Meanwhile, Linux is free, Linux has the same word of mouth marketing, but the user experience is terrible, the developer experience is terrible, the number of useful apps are few and far between, all those apps exist on other platforms, etc. In other words, thanks to a bad user experience that only the die hards will tolerate, LINUX CAN’T EVEN SELL ITSELF.

  47. Clarence Moon wrote, “There is next to no opportunity for compensation for the demonstration team since there is no revenue from the “sale”, so it is going to be difficult to obtain enough staff to even begin to address the billions of users in the world who now need to be sold on Linux.”

    I do the demo for free. I charge for design/installation/training. I made a month’s extra pay for the work I did at Easterville over and above my teaching contract. Some school divisions pay teachers in time off or other perks instead of $. It all works. Of course on the street, a consumers is not going to play for an hour. A few minutes should be enough. I did a lot of side-by-side demos on identical hardware. Folks were blown away by the speed and sold by the time the desktop settled.

  48. Clarence Moon, revising history, wrote, “Of course there was no exclusive deal with IBM and the ultimate success of Microsoft as an OS supplier stems from their keeping their product available for other OEMs who were able to create the famouse “clone” computer, usually sold at a substantially lower price than the “real” IBM PC.”

    HAHAHA! ROFL!

    CPM was priced 6X what DOS was and UCSD p was interpreted, so IBM was pushing only DOS. That lined up all the ISVs for M$ and the clones needed that software because they were all small operations and could not crank out all the software just as M$ does not today. DOS was the only game in town from the beginning of the IBM PC and M$ leveraged IBM’s weight with business. That’s about as exclusive as you can get.

    For hardware, IBM insisted on second sources for chips but they were OK with M$ being the sole supplier of the OS. That was a big mistake. If they had supported CP/M equally, the world would have been a different place. I still think GNU/Linux would have happened but possibly sooner in a competitive desktop environment.

  49. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon there is an old saying.

    Take it one step at a time. Step one target Governments. Working quite well. Reason if business cannot interact with there government using your product they will not use it.

    Clarence Moon where Linux sits today is a result of many things.

    Take opengl interface closed source drivers for Linux were first design in the year 2000. Method pave over existing installed OpenGL libraries. So breaking compatibility with everything other than your card. Please note the closed source driver makers never did this on Windows. Instead uses extension off existing opengl library. In fact mesa supports doing this even in the year 2000.

    When was this design revised. In fact it has not been. Yet. Nvidia ATI/AMD and others are now sitting down around an table to revise this at the currently. To something sane were you don’t pave over opengl drivers. Only reason Nvidia and ATI binary drivers don’t pave over in most distributions is distributions hacks to there drivers.

    So 12 years stuck with the same video card driver design why reversing of video cards started. Make a good desktop with bad video card drivers is really fighting up hill against poor supply.

    Part of the disaster of KDE 4.0 was the fact that no closed source DRI 2 drivers were released. KDE 4.0 was design to use DRI 2 massively. So yes Linux has suffered from release desktops and not having the video card drivers released.

    Outside the desktop where items like video card drivers are not important work of mouth has worked very will for Linux.

    Clarence Moon
    –There is next to no opportunity for compensation for the demonstration team since there is no revenue from the “sale”, so it is going to be difficult to obtain enough staff to even begin to address the billions of users in the world who now need to be sold on Linux.–
    This this is a self answering question if you had though about it. How does demonstration team make profit? Simple do you think the system will need no staff to deploy it. You do demonstrations for free but you don’t do the deployment for free. Difficult to obtain enough staff means the staff can charge more for their time rule of supply and demand.

    As these migrations mature they make there own support teams that train more staff how todo it. Its self fuelling item. This is demoed by the existing huge migrations.

    Linux appears like its going to follow the top down model. Not the bottom up model. The price tag make you look for a bottom up model not a top down model. Top down where the most valuable customers are converted first.

    –hopeless task in front of you.–
    Not so. You are so busy thinking in terms of selling box from shelf you forget the support side pays a lot of money.

    The question is not the billions of users out there to migration. The question is how many have to be migrated before it becomes a self maintaining and cascading into new business and governments. There are signs that LibreOffice has basically achieved this. We are not seeing a rapid cascade with Linux Desktops yet. But the speed of conversion is increasing.

    Going to the cloud does not get you away from LibreOffice.

    Clarence Moon each major migration create a new area were staff get trained in the usage of Linux. How many of these are required.

    The migration to Linux is not an over night thing. People like you claim their will be no value in the Desktop when Linux makes it.

    There are reasons why items like LibreOffice are picking up HTML 5 and android support. The tasks needing to be done will not disappear.

    The one thing every who is doing these in the cloud solutions forget is that Internet cabling in ground is only so big. New cables are not being layed at the same pace our bandwidth usage is expanding. At some point the system will break because there will not be enough bandwidth in the Internet to go round so a return to local servers. Of course this could be warped like each town/city having there own data centre. Those items still need OS and software.

  50. There is no economic or technical reason Walmart could not sell GNU/Linux. They did for a time and the netbooks sold out.

    A myth at best, Mr. Pogson. I don’t know that Walmart ever sold netbooks with Linux, it seems to me that they were somewhat of a rarity and only found in the specialty electronics areas of Best Buy and Office Depot. At that time, Walmart was trying to sell some very cheap PCs with Linux from a company named “Microtel” if my memory serves.

    The problem was that they didn’t sell all that well and were subject to a high return rate from consumers who didn’t know what they were buying and subsequently found that their new purchase was incompatible with their work software and data files.

    They don’t do that because M$ pays them for exclusivity, which is an illegal restraint of trade with M$ and all its “partners” forming a cartel.

    That is a complete fiction on your part, Mr. Pogson. And even if it were true your judgement as to its legality is on a par with Mr. O’s, namely, dead wrong. Ignoring the fact that what you describe is not a cartel at all, it is perfectly legal for a manufacturer to deal exclusively with a distributor such as Walmart. If you bother to read the USA vs Microsoft trial transcriptions and judgements, it is apparent that such exclusivity can reach to a limit of some 40% of available distribution capacity before it becomes a possible violation. That was the legal opinion of the original judge in the case, Penrod Jackson, who found the charge of exclusive dealing by including IE with Windows to be unfounded since that level of exclusion was not obtained.

  51. I don’t blame M$ for that. I blame IBM who made an exclusive deal for their OS

    As I recall, the deal with Microsoft for PCDOS 1.0 was that IBM had a fully paid up license (at a single payment price) to sell as many copies as they could. IBM also offered CP/M-86 and some sort of UCSD Pascal interpreter with the original PC. PCDOS was pretty cheap, at $50 retail, and it took over most of the business.

    Microsoft began an evolution of MS-DOS and PC-DOS along with it, increasing their revenues and shifting their model to a per each licensing fee.

    Of course there was no exclusive deal with IBM and the ultimate success of Microsoft as an OS supplier stems from their keeping their product available for other OEMs who were able to create the famouse “clone” computer, usually sold at a substantially lower price than the “real” IBM PC.

    Creating this competition was the main thing that grew the industry to the massive size that it is today. Microsoft didn’t create a monopoly at all, it created the DOS and then Windows computer. Many OEMs created a robust market for that product. It’s defining characterist is the compatibility between many models from many suppliers that operate consistently based on using the same OS.

    The result is the fostering of a giant industry and hardly the stiffling of it.

  52. All one has to do to sell GNU/Linux in my experience is to demonstrate its performance and reliability

    Well, given the ordinary difficulty of selling anything, there is usually a bit more to getting a sale, Mr. Pogson, but even if you were correct that itself is pretty difficult to carry off. How long does this demonstration take? An hour? Four hours? More? How much?

    There is next to no opportunity for compensation for the demonstration team since there is no revenue from the “sale”, so it is going to be difficult to obtain enough staff to even begin to address the billions of users in the world who now need to be sold on Linux. If you are at all realistic, you will “do the math” I am sure and come to the conclusion that you have a hopeless task in front of you.

    Close to 20 years have rolled around the clock since Windows and Linux had their infancy and start. We know where Windows sits today and where Linux sits today. It is clear that the word of mouth and “open” plan is an abject failure when it comes to prolific distribution of the product.

    That’s how I sold Easterville on GNU/Linux

    What evidence do you have that they are still “sold”? You had a sort of dictatorial position at that time and now you have none. Has anyone taken up the cause there or has it dissipated from inattention?

  53. oiaohm says:

    iLia undocumented formats that are not defacto to do business don’t interfere with competition.

    EU government is mandating documented formats.

    iLia
    –Especially if there are some competitors. Open/LibreOffice is free — anyone can download and use it and Corel still sells its office, so Microsoft is not a monopolist even here.–
    There were no major free Office suites when Microsoft did it.

    So basically what you are saying is that Microsoft gets to choose who they compete with.

    http://www.geek.com/articles/news/microsoft-buys-into-corel-2000103/
    iLia Corel is not an independent competitor to Microsoft has not been for over 10 years. Interesting that Corel Office suite for Linux disappeared after that buy in.

    Microsoft almost takes a cut from everyone making Office suites. Those it took a cut from it was more open with documentation to. Yes what Microsoft has done appears at first not to be a monopoly but that is only skin deep appearance.

  54. ilia wrote, “in what market Microsoft is a monopoly?”

    My local Walmart will sell ten types of tooth-paste, 47 brands of dresses, but only one brand of desktop OS. That’s a monopoly. There is no economic or technical reason Walmart could not sell GNU/Linux. They did for a time and the netbooks sold out. They don’t do that because M$ pays them for exclusivity, which is an illegal restraint of trade with M$ and all its “partners” forming a cartel. Every OEM that Walmart buys from could can and do sell GNU/Linux PCs in other places but not here, where I live. The monopoly is definitely weakening and I do not believe the world will allow M$ to create exclusivity for smart thingies but M$ will try. We see that with Nokia and software patents etc.

  55. iLia wrote, “who can blame Microsoft that they won the desktop market?”

    I don’t blame M$ for that. I blame IBM who made an exclusive deal for their OS a decade earlier. I do blame M$ for illegally strengthening and maintaining the monopoly however. That governments allowed that to happen was a disaster for IT, costing the world’s economies untold $billions in higher costs, malware and re-re-reboots, not to mention economic opportunity lost for all kinds of small businesses who could not find space on retail shelves.

  56. Thorsten Rahn wrote, “Not even scantily clad women could sell GNU/Linux.”

    I don’t know about that. If Canonical can sell Ubuntu GNU/Linux, anything will sell somewhere sometime to somebody.

    She could sell GNU/Linux. I am sure.

    So could Nixie Pixel.

    All one has to do to sell GNU/Linux in my experience is to demonstrate its performance and reliability. Many migrations to GNU/Linux start with a single demonstration or minor roll-out. Then everyone does the maths and figures out they have better things to do with their time/money than propping up Wintel. That’s how I sold Easterville on GNU/Linux. Twice the IT for the money works for real people. No one objected that it could not run some M$-only application. It was fast and reliable. That’s all they needed to know. I gave staff very little introduction, just a reasonable desktop configuration, usernames and passwords. It worked for them.

  57. JR says:

    @ Thorsten Rahn

    “Not even scantily clad women could sell GNU/Linux.”

    Remember they would be giving it away not selling it.

    Chances are people would take a free CD/DVD just to have a closer look. At the scantily clad women of course.

  58. Thorsten Rahn says:

    I read a thread on Debian User Forums about market share of GNU/Linux and how to increase it. There were some good suggestions but I added my own. The main point is that an individual can do only so much. To get the best result from your efforts, you should exploit force-multipliers. I mentioned youths, retail outlets, recycling PCs and governments.

    I laughed quite heartily.

    Not even scantily clad women could sell GNU/Linux.

  59. iLia says:

    Undocumented or Poorly documented defacto formats

    Why should a company open its documents formats? Especially if there are some competitors. Open/LibreOffice is free — anyone can download and use it and Corel still sells its office, so Microsoft is not a monopolist even here.

  60. oiaohm says:

    iLia it was not just IBM that lost. BeOS was one of the more interesting.

    –And who can blame Microsoft that they won the desktop market?–
    Really its still how. Focusing on OS/2 alone misses all the other players and why they went down.

    Lot of Microsoft Monopoly problems are being undone.

    Undocumented or Poorly documented defacto formats and hardware that everyone expects everyone else to open/use have been a major bug bear to having any competition in the market of operating systems.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiku_%28operating_system%29 Access to hardware still effects BEOS relation today.

    OS competition was better in the DOS age before closed source drivers when if you wanted you hardware used you had to release interface specs.

  61. iLia says:

    Hey, I found an interesting article on how IBM lost the desktop market:

    IBM had never resolved what OS/2 Warp 4 was supposed to be for. It was the JAVA client you could talk to that had a kind of working Win32 API (open32). Problem was, JAVA on OS/2 was slow and implemented so poorly on base Warp 4 to be useless. Voicetype was a niche that required a ton of memory and was incompatible with many programs that used sound. And Open32…well, it had more issues than this article room for.

    That’s not to say that Warp 4 wasn’t a good OS and a worthy upgrade – it is. But a successful product requires it to have a defined market, good distribution, and be technically sound. Unfortunately, most OS/2 users even now aren’t sure who OS/2 Warp 4 is for.

    Sales of OS/2 Warp 4, to put it mildly, did not live up to the glory days of Warp 3. Many people just didn’t know why they needed to upgrade. OS/2 Warp 3 with FP26 is pretty incredible. If Warp 4 simply brought a slower version of JAVA and VoiceType why should people (especially corporations) upgrade was the general consensus. Many of the sales came from an unexpected source – end users who, as this point, IBM wanted to go away.

    end users who, as this point, IBM wanted to go away.

    And who can blame Microsoft that they won the desktop market? When one of the majors competitors do not want end users to buy their OS, and another competitor didn’t want to make its Macs accessible for simple users, how Microsoft could not use this opportunity? And what criminal in using it? Please tell me, mr.Pogson!

  62. iLia says:

    Mr.Pogson you once again called Microsoft a monopoly. Please tell me in what market Microsoft is a monopoly?

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