For ages, every chip from Intel has worked pretty well with GNU/Linux thanks to Intel’s contribution of FLOSS drivers. Dredged up from the dungeons of Wintel is a plan to release a new Atom SoC (System on a Chip) with integrated graphics which will be “8”-only. This means millions of products will be shipped from mainstream OEMs which for the first time since the early days of Linux will not work with GNU/Linux. These Clover Trail Atoms are aimed at tablets but Intel will likely sell to any OEM who wants the latest advantages of Intel’s technology. A lot of thin clients run GNU/Linux and OEMs are making a lot more these days. Whether this is really a scheme of M$ to lock out GNU/Linux or a by-product of rapid technological change, Intel says it’s a “8”-only chip.
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“Intel is avoiding Linux support at the behest of Microsoft”
* [Phoronix] Intel Shafting Linux Users With Clover Trail: No Support.
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“Intel said Clover Trail "is a Windows 8 chip" and that "the chip cannot run Linux"”.
* IDF: Intel says Clover Trail will not work with Linux – The Inquirer.
I think this is a stupid move by Intel. Unless M$ is paying them a huge bundle for this move it does not make sense as a business. If M$ is paying them a huge bundle for this move it could be Intel is becoming involved in the biggest anti-competitive scheme of M$ since Netscape. What they could not do by FUD, arm-twisting, exclusive dealing etc. they now intend to do by having hardware that won’t run GNU/Linux.
I expect small expensive computers will fail and Intel will lose a bundle on this line of chips. At worst, if there is no legal intervention to prevent this, Wintel will have a little more business for the next few months until the next chip comes down the pipe with full GNU/Linux support.
Mr. Pogson,
Have you read Bruce Perens’ take on this?
http://perens.com/blog/2012/09/15/1/index
I kind of suspected that intel wasn’t handling the graphics end… Heck it sounds like their hand is currently being forced in a direction they dont want to go:
“The next step for the Atom architecture is Valley View, which does away with PowerVR, replacing it with Intel’s own grapics. Intel promises good Linux support for this architecture, and it will use smaller transistors, thus providing a speed and power efficiency gain.”
But Intel isn’t the only one stuck with MS:
“AMD’s “Hondo” processor is being marketed as “Windows Only” too. Microsoft must be paying both manufacturers a lot for this. However, AMD is not saying the chip won’t run Linux, and is indeed preparing Linux support, though not for Android.”
Anyway, Its kind of old news by now, I just thought it might be of interest
eug wrote, “There have been rumors that Intel’s new Atom CPU, Clover Trail, would only support Windows 8, but not Android or Linux.”
Those weren’t rumours but right from Intel’s lips:
The only thing changed is that yes, they do admit it will run headless and flat out. Not the best for desktop/tablet usage.
Intel’s new Clover Trail chip will support Android & Linux
Summary: There have been rumors that Intel’s new Atom CPU, Clover Trail, would only support Windows 8, but not Android or Linux. We now know that the chip will support these open-source operating systems as well.
http://www.zdnet.com/intels-new-clover-trail-chip-will-support-android-and-linux-7000004451/
fuquit wrote, “somewhere out there in the world there is a freetard absolutely wetting himself at the notion of running an Atom-powered server”
This is not so much about servers as client machines. Most servers using Atoms will have other Atoms that are designed to be space-saving and low-powered without needing the fancy graphics of this chip.
fuquit wrote, “I’ve never met a teacher who wanted to use Linux as anything other than Some Other OS to give kids in a How To Install 5 Different Operating Systems segment of a computer hardware class.”
There are lots of us out there and more who just use FLOSS apps on that other OS. Here’s a whole school division that used GNU/Linux desktops (1100 teachers and 15K students). They are not the only ones. The largest organizations using GNU/Linux are often school-systems. Spain, Brazil, India have had huge roll-outs and Russia is in the process. GNU/Linux works in education.
“When the tablets don’t sell, Intel and others will infect all of IT with other uses for these chips, everything from thin clients to servers eventually. Intel is not about to tool up for a product they cannot sell. When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.”
Because somewhere out there in the world there is a freetard absolutely wetting himself at the notion of running an Atom-powered server. (you perhaps?).
And as to your experience in schools. For myself, I’ve never met a teacher who wanted to use Linux as anything other than Some Other OS to give kids in a How To Install 5 Different Operating Systems segment of a computer hardware class.
Making mountains out of mole hills is your favourite passtime, innit? Armchair Self-martyrdom is a peculiarly first world fetish.
Go out there and find yourself a cause worth fighting for, and get off your fat ass.
Clarence Moon Imagination Technologies does not issue Intel with a NDA to the source code.
The only one allowed to see the source code of PowerVR drivers is Imagination Technologies themselves.
So everything containing PowerVR and other Imagination Technologies made items requiring drivers has to come from one source.
Coopetition normally does not work well long term particular for the consumer if the two parties are not working with each other effectively. This is the true case of Intel and Imagination Technologies.
Coopetition is the base idea of FOSS. Really you don’t get it Clarence Moon.
Coopetition has set of events that are known to cause major screw ups.
Being a Distributor and competition to who you are in a Coopetition agreement with normally ends up with the agreement overly strict and restrictive so interfering with the positive results.
This is the case of Intel with Imagination Technologies. Imagination Technologies fears that Intel one day will not need them. So will not share source code with Intel because it might give away how they are so power effective. So removing Intel need for them.
Since Intel is Imagination Technologies major distributor/customer. Without Intel, Imagination Technologies could go under.
Its one thing competing in the same market. Its another whey they are only only major access to the market. VIA and AMD don’t use PowerVR or any Imagination Technologies stuff in there chips.
So without Intel, Imagination Technologies has no access to the x86 market.
In arm Imagination Technologies has a very hard battle since they are mostly Linux incompatible.
I understand co-opetition better than you Clarence Moon.
There is health co-operation and unhealth co-operation. Intel and Imagination Technologies is 100 percent sure not a healthy set-up.
Since one party cannot truly cooperate on development with the other party so has to hide secrets that could end up making the product worse. So the co-opetition setup is unstable.
Key point of co-opetition is the means to effectively share research and development between yourselves.
This is noted on the wikipedia.
–Some difficulties also exist, as distribution of control, equity in risk, complementary needs and trust.–
The true fact is Imagination Technologies does not trust Intel so this makes there relationship unstable. Also Imagination Technologies only targeting Windows limits their possible sales base.
Its the two points Intel has Distribution control and is a Direct competitor. So Intel can crush them.
Yes things get wrong when you are someone competition and their distributor at the same time.
Oh, that is what NDAs and contracts and lawyers are used for, Mr. O, although I am sure such things are way outside of your ken. It is called “co-opetition” and is the basis for many joint ventures and even for FLOSS development where you have to tell your prospective competitor all your secrets in order to participate. Commercial companies do it in a much more controlled manner, of course, and it is not at all necessary for crazy schemes such as the GPL to be used to ensure disclosure. Simple contracts and the laws of the land will suffice.
iLia png and jpeg libraries shipped with the OS are the same source base between Windows Linux and OS X. Issue here is windows normally slower on the update them. So most applications ship there own copy.
Next is Ubuntu bug list include programs like vlc that run on OS X, Windows and Linux. 100 000 bugs of what basically. To get useful number for compare would take a serous amount of time iLia. The question is what percentage turn out to be cross platform issues.
Clarence Moon when it comes to PowerVR designs. Intel has already tried to make drivers for it. The parent company is not what you call cooperative.
Yes intel is producing the chip. But they cannot see the source code of the drivers they are going to use and have to hope PowerVR maker Imagination Technologies does not go under as well. Since then they would have a stack of chips they can never update the driver on.
PowerVR source will not be shared with Intel because Intel is their video card competition.
Yes things get wrong when you are someone competition and their distributor at the same time.
Expense is not the issue.
Intel says that it is, who are you to differ? Without knowing the extent of the work required to supply the interfaces, you cannot say what the cost is. Without knowing Intel’s estimation of how many parts might be sold with Windows support alone and with support for Windows and some other operating systems, you cannot determine whether their decision was correct or not. If it cost $1M to develop a driver and there would only be 100,000 additional parts sold at $8 each, then the decision is sound. You can only guess at the numbers and you do not have any experience in the issues to even begin to make any accurate guess.
Remember OS X, Linux and Windows do share some libraries.
An example, please.
When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.
And why Intel or other big CPU producers don’t create and sell Linux-only CPUs? Maybe it is because 3/4 of Linux users use Windows as well?
iLia wrote, “Microsoft’s market share on tablets is very similar to the desktop Linux market share — almost non existent.”
When the tablets don’t sell, Intel and others will infect all of IT with other uses for these chips, everything from thin clients to servers eventually. Intel is not about to tool up for a product they cannot sell. When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.
Clarence Moon wrote, “Intel is claiming that there are technical reasons for not supporting iOS or Linux on the chips, hinting at some sort of expense.”
What expense did they have writing drivers for an unreleased OS? Would it not be similar to the expense of writing drivers for a released OS (*/Linux)? Expense is not the issue. They are committed to writing drivers for the next release of their hardware. Is it believable that Intel would incorporate graphics over which they had no control to write a driver? Nope. This is exclusive dealing, simply.
iLia
http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/malaysian-government-marches-onward-to-floss/
Really you must be skipping reading all this blog.
The Linux Desktop market share is still getting more converts.
Means to convert the hardware the business has is a highly useful feature for making the migration more cost effective.
This is why you find insane buggers seeing if ipads and other items can be converted as well.
Microsoft Tablet sales does not have mass purchases like Linux Desktop has. So Microsoft Tablet is smaller than Linux Desktop at this stage.
iLia really you bug compare lacks something to compare to. How many of that 100 000 bugs exist cross platform. Remember OS X, Linux and Windows do share some libraries.
Wouldn’t it be cool if Intel, Via and ARM or the big producers of ARMed chips put M$/Apple repellent in a billion+ chips annually? How many seconds would elapse before multiple lawsuits were filed? Why is it OK for Wintel to do that to GNU/Linux?
I think that your thinking is very confused here, Mr. Pogson. Intel is claiming that there are technical reasons for not supporting iOS or Linux on the chips, hinting at some sort of expense. Maybe that is true, maybe not, but it is a free country, after all, and they can do that if they want. There are plenty of options for others to do other things these days.
Apple seems happy enough with their results which are every bit as proprietary as what Intel is doing here.
It is all a money issue anyway. If a manufacturer can make more money using Android than Windows, the manufacturer will do just that. And vice-versa. As we have seen here, Apple is making huge profits on its devices and the aggregation of Android devices, while numerically larger than Apple’s unit count, make substantially less profit. It may be that the OEMs are looking for another solution that may give them a better profit with Windows 8. They should be allowed to try, regardless.
Yes, it matters. It prevents competition for that hardware by diverse operating systems. Folks who buy those chips will be locked in to Wintel as long as they run.
Stop whining mr.Pogson and start porting Linux on this chip if you wanna to run some 100’000 bugs Linux distribution on it! And don’t forget to add your personal dozen of bugs!
Yes, it matters.
No it does not matter. Why? Because there are much more chips that can run your Linux and because the Microsoft’s market share on tablets is very similar to the desktop Linux market share — almost non existent.
ch
–The hardware in question will most likely be a tablet, not a PC. How many people feel the urge to install another OS on their iPads? If someone buys a Win8 tablet, it probably means he wants a tablet running Win8. If he wants another OS, he should really buy a tablet with that OS.–
http://www.techhive.com/article/239059/linux_now_runs_on_ipad_tuxedo_optional.html Enough that it happens. Thinking they have to jail break the device todo it.
Windows 8 that MS will be signing the Fedora and SUSE shim loaders. Not as hard as doing a ipad.
The issue is going to be people who much up what tablet they are paving over at times.
ch
–If he wants another OS, he should really buy a tablet with that OS.–
That is if the OS he wants is in stock. Now if the OS you want is not in stock and there is another their you can pave over to get the job done. Guess what going to happen.
Linux people don’t look at OS on it. Lots of machines with linux installed get paved over by company images and other solutions as well.
Yes paving over it normal to Linux people to get the distribution they want. Why do you expect them to stop just because its a tablet. The issue of not being provided with hardware a culture of paving over was formed.
“It prevents competition for that hardware by diverse operating systems.”
The hardware in question will most likely be a tablet, not a PC. How many people feel the urge to install another OS on their iPads? If someone buys a Win8 tablet, it probably means he wants a tablet running Win8. If he wants another OS, he should really buy a tablet with that OS.
ch PowerVR video cards never provide any specs with Linux. Next is they are binary blob when they do that is mostly broken.
There is a problem PowerVR is more power effective than Intel own Video Card design.
Just to be worse PowerVR has not a good track record on Windows either. There is a reason why point to Apple as a share holder.
ch
–Sure, this would mean you couldn’t install Linux or Android on a Win8 tablet with this chip–
Incorrect.
Until the chip is out there we will not know if the new chip supports any of the old protocols and how bad the lack of support is. The lack of support will not be bad enough to stop Linux running.
ch not thinking of the old protocols that still might in there. Another evil thing is the Linux kernel can use the EFI video driver that windows 8 requires for its boot loader. Very limited functionality but it still enough functionally that Linux will fire with 2d graphics only.
So since Windows 8 mandates EFI. Linux will be able to work to a point on that hardware no matter what. Yes the signing setup SUSE and Fedora are doing will also allow installation.
Quality of support is what is going to be lacking ch.
–If you want a Linux or Android tablet, go buy one.–
Really its the Windows users who should be more upset. The more volume of a chip produced the cheaper its per unit cost can be.
I guess it never crossed your mind ch that EFI boot basically makes min Linux support mandatory for all systems using it.
ch wrote, “Sure, this would mean you couldn’t install Linux or Android on a Win8 tablet with this chip – but does that matter?”
Yes, it matters. It prevents competition for that hardware by diverse operating systems. Folks who buy those chips will be locked in to Wintel as long as they run. In schools, for instance, which often receive PCs by donation or grants there would be no possibility of putting GNU/Linux on those machines except as servers. This is different than all my experience of PCs in schools from 1997 until 2011. I have never met an x86 PC that I could not install with GNU/Linux.
“Apple and M$ conspiring with Intel to exclude GNU/Linux… ”
Yes, that’s one possibility … *eyeroll*
Here’s another: Like it or not, Win8 tablets are hot right now, with lots of manufacturers jumping on the train. So Intel decides to do a chip optimized for Win8 tablets, with no regards for any other role. Intel is big enough and has oodles of different chip lines, so creating one for just this role would be no problem.
If this is what’s happening, this chip would only be meant to run Win8, so they wouldn’t bother to provide Linux drivers or anything. Sure, this would mean you couldn’t install Linux or Android on a Win8 tablet with this chip – but does that matter? If you want a Linux or Android tablet, go buy one. People just don’t change the OS on a tablet. And of course, Intel will still happily sell all those other chips to be used with whatever OS including Linux.
Apple and M$ conspiring with Intel to exclude GNU/Linux… Now the stove heats up. Who competes with those folks? Google/Motorola/Samsung/HTC… Excluding Linux will also exclude Android. Love it… Thanks, oiaohm. This could get really interesting. Wouldn’t it be cool if Intel, Via and ARM or the big producers of ARMed chips put M$/Apple repellent in a billion+ chips annually? How many seconds would elapse before multiple lawsuits were filed? Why is it OK for Wintel to do that to GNU/Linux?
Robert Pogson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagination_Technologies
Largest shareholder Apple. Wonder how Apple PowerVR support is.
The chip uses a non-Intel graphics block so only the maker of that piece of crap can write a driver for it or divulge to Intel the details. It’s plausible deniability that Intel cannot make a driver. I think M$ has paid someone to write a driver for that other OS exclusively.
“Intel said Clover Trail ‘is a Windows 8 chip’ and that ‘the chip cannot run Linux‘â€
I don’t understand how this could be true, let alone why. A graphics function call is a graphics function call; it should make no difference whether that call is made from Linux, Windows XP, or Windows 8. This doesn’t pass the smell test. If it’s simply a matter of Intel not developing X or Wayland drivers for the chip, that’s one thing—but if alternate drivers are being blocked, somehow, it borders on restraint of trade. Obviously, Intel can do what it wants, but it sure seems like a bone-headed move to me.