“Anyone who has ever browsed a technology website, be it for help, advice or information, can tell you that every last one of them is infected by Linux zealots. They evangelize the Linux operating system by trolling forums and blogs, spreading lies and exaggerations about the Linux while simultaneously spreading FUD about Windows, OSX, BSD, and their favourite enemy, Microsoft.”
via TM Repository.
Chuckle. Netcraft.com reports the site runs GNU/Linux and is not in the top million most active websites. I guess after two years, they are discovering that hate does not sell. Perhaps that’s why they send apologists to my site.
MrPogson.com also runs GNU/Linux and is 240031 on their ranking of most popular websites. Could it be that real people love Free Software, GNU/Linux and small cheap computers?
Hmmm… I guess freedom-loving people win over bigots.
Satipera wrote, “Considering the huge amount of trolling you have to put up with I suppose the odd “Idiot†is bound to slip out for both of you.”
“Idiot!” was one of my father’s favourite expressions. He used it a lot in city-traffic. He was a bus driver and saw a lot of stupid things. He had driven a bus in the city for 25 years without an accident when a guy drove through a red light at high speed and moved his bus to the other side of the road. Minutes before, he had unloaded a bunch of school kids standing in the aisle. I learned a lot from him.
I guess the term is overused. Clearly the trolls deliberately holding forth an irrational view in order to provoke reasonable persons are not idiots but psychopaths. There is a difference although one may be more damaging than another.
@Robert Pogson It wasn’t aimed at you 🙂 but @Oiaohm. Considering the huge amount of trolling you have to put up with I suppose the odd “Idiot” is bound to slip out for both of you.
Satipera wrote, “you do FLOSS no good by frequently calling them idiots.”
Of course not, but it makes me feel better. After all, I cannot grab them by the throat and choke them as oldman says.
Actually, many of the trolls and naysayers who come her are not idiots but clever liars/word-twisters. They put words in others mouths, repeat FUD/myths about FLOSS and generally do their best to waste my time and energy. Fortunately, my enthusiasm remains good on some days and I continue.
The more desperate measures that appear in the trolls’ arguments the weaker their position and the stronger is FLOSS. FLOSS will do well with or without me. I use it and contribute what I can. Now that the major project of remodelling my old home is done, I will look forward to other projects this winter. I plan to build a greenhouse, go hunting and to finish the organization of my workshop and den, but I will also do somelthing related to FLOSS. I will add more to this blog and I will try some kind of install-fest or other publicity stunt for FLOSS locally.
Thanks for visiting.
Oiaohm
I have been reading Mrpogson comments on and off for a few years. I came to it via Techrights (BN). I realise that dealing with some of the people who post here must be very frustrating but you do FLOSS no good by frequently calling them idiots.
oldman wrote of M$, “Guess who is in Kenya.”
Too late, GNU/Linux is taking over…
The government of Kenya has done a lot to facilitate IT in Kenya like promotion of wireless. FLOSS works for them.
oldman
–You still don’t get it do you hamster. When the commodore 64 was available it was a very different world with far fewer options for anyone who wanted a personal computer. Now with all of the cheap x86 hardware floating around. crappy hobbyist computers like RPi are at best a niche.–
The problem has not gone away. Its only gone away for you because your wage is worth something. In a lot of the world a full blow X86 computer compared to their wages is still like going out and buying a full Minicomputer when you got your first PC.
x86 hardware is not that cheep.
Oldman in entry level computers compared to global wages there is bugger all. Just because you live in a richer country and don’t see the poor that does not mean they don’t exist.
–So the poor of the world get to use developed world crap toys instead of usable systems.–
Be truthful is this not what you used in the early PC’s because you could not afford a full blown Mini-Computer at home. Reality here take your rose colour glasses off and consider what you really did. Please stop this do as say not as I did point of view.
You have talked about the reason why you used the early PC’s I could pull that up. Then I can pull the USA wages at time for price of machine vs average wages then pull global average wages of today.
The result is the current day machine need to land to be equal to the first PC you acquired for approx 150 USD. That is with Keyboard Mouse and Monitor. To be equal cost to when you got the PC.
I don’t know how you get to 150 USD at current pricing of stuff but that is the price. The raspberry PI is in their acquirable price range.
Reality the x86 PC is too expense for a lot of markets.
Kenya recently passed mandatory open source usage inside it government for particular roles.
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Developers+lined+up+for+huge+gains+in+software+shift/-/1248928/1497380/-/item/0/-/webbqlz/-/index.html
Oldman Microsoft of course is in Kenya because if this works its another lost market.
Oldman really how many more markets can MS lose before it has to show.
“Kenya and many other countries are modernizing IT and skipping all of M$’s bullshit cripple-ware.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….
Guess who is in Kenya.
http://www.microsoft.com/worldwide/phone/contact.aspx?country=Kenya
The only buswah around here robert pogson is YOU, who has let his hatred of one company destroy his scientific objectivity.
oldman, denying the obvious fact that IT is a huge economic lever, wrote, “Too bad those same people are also probably more worried about keeping body and soul together than they are about some idiotic computer.”
Many in the emerging markets are acquiring IT so they can raise their national economies out of poverty instead of making M$ richer still. Really, oldman, do you think Kenya should be subsidizing Ballmer’s lifestyle? No! Kenya and many other countries are modernizing IT and skipping all of M$’s bullshit cripple-ware.
Wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of that trolling were Microsoft evangelists trying to reinforce the unpleasant Linux user stereotype.
“That may be true if you have a job and lots of cash. That is not true for more people in the world than in the established markets. Wintel is way too expensive for billions of people still.”
So the poor of the world get to use developed world crap toys instead of usable systems. How nice of you, Pog to want to take advantage of their poverty to advance your anti-microsoft agenda!
Too bad those same people are also probably more worried about keeping body and soul together than they are about some idiotic computer.
oldman wrote, “Now with all of the cheap x86 hardware floating around. crappy hobbyist computers like RPi are at best a niche.”
That may be true if you have a job and lots of cash. That is not true for more people in the world than in the established markets. Wintel is way too expensive for billions of people still. Raspberry PI lowers the threshold for usability of IT by quite a bit. $50 can fit into many more budgets many more ways than $300. The monitor, keyboard and mouse becomes the limiting factor and the world is loaded with smaller, cheaper varieties of those too. I bought excellent USB keyboards with USB ports and USB mouse combination from HP for $10. One can buy Chinese LCD monitors of small size quite suitable for kids or kiosks for less than the cost of the PI.
“The Rasbbery PI is on time line to match Commodore 64. The best selling of all the basic computers was the Commodore 64.”
You still don’t get it do you hamster. When the commodore 64 was available it was a very different world with far fewer options for anyone who wanted a personal computer. Now with all of the cheap x86 hardware floating around. crappy hobbyist computers like RPi are at best a niche.
ch
–What exactly do you mean with “early onâ€? The 1970ies and early 80ies, when MS Basic was installed on more than 800k machines?
Oh, and just to put things into perspective: Nokia has sold ten times that many WP7 phones by now, and we all know that WP7 is a failure. So your point is?–
Really it does not put it in perspective. Because the next phone after the Nokia WP7 is going to come from where. Did the Nokia name had pre-existing good will yes it did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64
The Rasbbery PI is on time line to match Commodore 64. The best selling of all the basic computers was the Commodore 64.
http://jeremyreimer.com/postman/node/329
ch 800k machines is not even a full year yet. This is is more than the C64 did in it first year even scaling it up to current market size.
Nokia had an established brand with WP7 to play on.
A unknown brand moving 1 million units in the first year is basically unheard of. Yet it looks like the Raspberry PI will pull this off.
That is what makes what going on with the Raspberry Pi Interesting. Now if more than 1 can move 1 million units in their first year we are talking a interesting disruption.
This is the question. Is the Raspbery PI a one off or a sign of things to come.
Sign of things to come is a big problem. We will know more as more of the items enter the market.
800K does not sound like a lot. Until you wake up that Raspbery PI sales are restricted because they cannot get enough production.
Nokia has not had production limits either because they could buy a few million units in advance.
ch for a company that can buy a few million units in advance nokia sales have been horrible. Raspberry PI could only afford 30K in advance. This means you cannot really compare two. You can compare to panda board and other prototype boards that have stared out with 30K production.
“That’s way more units than M$ started shipping early on.”
What exactly do you mean with “early on”? The 1970ies and early 80ies, when MS Basic was installed on more than 800k machines?
Oh, and just to put things into perspective: Nokia has sold ten times that many WP7 phones by now, and we all know that WP7 is a failure. So your point is?
oldman its too soon to know exactly where the Hobbyists will stop.
–Hobbyists have a new toty and embedded systems see a potentially cheap microcontroller. Nothing more.–
These Hobbyists are now designing new boards.
oldman wrote, “800K to hobbyist plus development worldwide is entirely reasonable. Still nothing to care about.”
That’s way more units than M$ started shipping early on.
“Something is going on oldman. Question is what.”
Hobbyists have a new toty and embedded systems see a potentially cheap microcontroller. Nothing more.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitate
“800 000 premade units cannot go to the device development market. They never need that many. Because they start producing there own boards after they have had a good look at the reference.”
800K to hobbyist plus development worldwide is entirely reasonable. Still nothing to care about.
oldman
–And nobody will give a crap. I past experience is any guide these systems will simply go nowhere except possibly as microcontrollers.–
8088 chip first appeared as a micro-controller experiment board before the first XT was made.
–Increasing sales of these prototyping systems for home usage is evidence.–
Panda Board that is then followed by the rasbery pi sales numbers.
Rasbery Pi first edition has produced over 800 000 units still got case of production not meeting demand. This is more than any other prototyping board in the same time frame.
Before Rasbery Pi most boards proto boards with video out where expensive.
oldman the Rasbery Pi is outselling all standard micro controller development boards. Also the boards with proper video out are outselling all other boards.
Something is going on oldman. Question is what.
This all started with the Arduino. It has been picking up pace.
–In that context the personal desktop, toy that it was in the beginning, was a godsend that developed quite rapidly.–
We are now seeing the same thing in proto boards. 6 months down the track from the Rasbery Pi you are seeing something that has quad the ram and over doubled the performance.
oldman
–And nobody will give a crap. I past experience is any guide these systems will simply go nowhere except possibly as microcontrollers.–
If no one was giving a crap we would not be seeing the sales numbers that are happening. 800 000 premade units cannot go to the device development market. They never need that many. Because they start producing there own boards after they have had a good look at the reference.
Same thing has been happening with Arduino but due to its limited abilities does not have as many markets. There have been more Arduino devices produced than the device development market needs.
So these devices are going into homes and education. Not business yet. Same way PC entered.
oldman remember none of the major OS makers gave a crap about the PC this gave MS the foot hold selling basic that lead to MS DOS.
We are seeing a new neglected section of market appear. This always opens the door to new OS’s getting in the mix.
“The Raspberry PI changes a lot because they are so small.”
Only the board is small. You still need a monitor and keyboard which are generally much bigger than compact laptops. I mean, laptops are designed to sit on your lap so regardless of how small the desk is, it can still house a laptop. Any lecture hall in university will prove that; They have tiny folding trays for desks and everyone can fit their laptops on them.
Additionally, laptops have mouse input built in, a battery built in and the mouse and keyboard don’t occupy the USB slots so plugging in an external hard drive isn’t a problem. Even if you had a battery running the board, you’d drain it trying to run a desktop monitor off it.
So while the price of the board is fetching, it isn’t the complete solution. There’s a reason laptops cost more; They have all the components integrated already and are truly portable.
oldman wrote, “I am more concerned with helping students”.
In that case, answer the question, “Are students better off having no computer or the Raspberry PI?”.
That’s the choice in the real world. Classrooms are too small for desktop PCs and even notebooks are too big. Classrooms have lots of bodies, desks and tend to be square with little storage space/workspace at the sides. There exist classrooms built in the 1950s today which antedate anything but pencils and books and the occasional projector. I have taught in rooms with only 4 duplex receptacles, one on each wall. They cannot all be turned into labs. The Raspberry PI changes a lot because they are so small. The netbooks was pretty good for that purpose but cost a lot more. I have been told by directors of education that they would not have even one PC in a classroom despite the specified curriculum. Small cheap computers have a big role.
The lab is most schools’ answer to this problem and it is a poor solution requiring scheduling or random access. Both restrict what educators and students can do with them. Small cheap computers and mobile gadgets change all that. Many schools have carts with netbooks come to classrooms but it is far better to have the hardware accessible when it’s needed rather than on schedule. IT should be usable just like pencils and paper, as needed.
oldman revises history a bit when he wrote, “You forget that in 1975 there was no such thing as a personal desktop computer. “
No history was revised Pog. I just miscalculated on your ability to understand the context of the comment. I therefore revise my statement as follows:
You forget that up until 1975 there was no such thing as a personal desktop computer.
Does this make my intent clearer, Pog?
“Before that were things like the minicomputers and terminals that had similar functions. No one cared whether the computer was down the hall or across campus if they could make things happen from where they were. God, those TeleTypes were noisy.”
Minicomputers in the 70’s were big expensive and shared resources. Unless you were one of the privileged, you got to sign up for you limited amount of time at the computer and wait your turn. If you couldn’t perform your task in the time alotted, you were SOL – you got to vacate your seat and make room for the next poor schmuck who needed access to the computer.
In that context the personal desktop, toy that it was in the beginning, was a godsend that developed quite rapidly. By 1978 I was using wordstar to edit the drafts of my school papers and sson after (1979) writing in Z80 assembler and MICROSOFT Fortran-80 on a Northstar horizon. I was able to get so much of my work done on this little “toy” computer that none of the mini or mainframe bigots wanted to touch that I cut my need for computer time in half.
Flash forward 34 years Pog and we have an entirely different situation. There is IMHO zero reason to be giving little crappy computers like RPi to anyone as their first computer unless they are interested in developing for embedded systems or want to or are able to tinker. IMHO A more meaning learning experience can be had by teaching programming using the desktop resources that are available now.
But then again I am more concerned with helping students, not with sticking it to microsoft as you seem to be.
oldman revises history a bit when he wrote, “You forget that in 1975 there was no such thing as a personal desktop computer. “
That’s not so. The Intel microprocessors immediately changed that. Altair 8800 and a bunch of others appeared in 1975. Further, all the components were available off-the-shelf so individuals were making desktop PCs one way or another.
Before that were things like the minicomputers and terminals that had similar functions. No one cared whether the computer was down the hall or across campus if they could make things happen from where they were. God, those TeleTypes were noisy.
oldman wrote, as 11, “I past experience is any guide these systems will simply go nowhere except possibly as microcontrollers.”
These things are affordable and accessible by schools, particularly in labs for computer science/robotics/electronics. They teach way more than reading/writing/’rithmetic in schools these days. They are also affordable and accessible for geekish kids. Parents will love to give these as gifts or to keep kids off the web/TV a bit. Unlike ancient single-board computers, these have standard connectors for USB and video and can run modest distros which open up all kinds of possibilities. There are a ton of software and tools for them. Expect them to turn up in science/technology fairs, schools and homes in the millions. Expect a whole generation of young people to be familiar with GNU/Linux and Android/Linux as a result of such small cheap computers. They accelerate the decline of the monopoly a lot. These will be consumers who go into retail stores and tell salesmen that they are selling the wrong stuff. I expect my grand daughter will receive one of these within a year or two. She already can run Android/Linux and she’s only 3.
For your information, education is big business. The world has ~7 billion people of which more than 1billion are school age. It’s a huge market. Schools everywhere have skimped on IT. They can spend a little and get a lot with small cheap computers. The lack of moving parts is particularly appealing. They just won’t quit. Unlike consumers who keep wanting the next best thing, students at a young age pass through an age where any IT at all is absolutely wonderful because they all go through the same basic needs to understand and to try stuff so these gadgets will have long lifespans again killing M$’s cash cows. I still have a working Ohio Scientific SuperBoard II which I might donate to my grand daughter for her collection of toys. It cost $400 and could do nothing but BASIC and assembler with only audio and video connectors. 8KB RAM, too. I used it for years anyway. Imagine what the new small cheap computers can do in comparison. Small things can change the world.
Clarence Moon, defying logic, wrote, “The only statistic in existence is the web counts which are a direct measure of usage in some sort of general environment. Whether those statistics can be accurate projected to other environments is indeed a valid question, but there is nothing at all that suggests that Linux is a major factor in Asia or anywhere else in terms of desktop PC commerce.”
Don’t you think that people need to actually sell stuff to stay in business selling GNU/Linux? People are doing that in China, Malaysia, India, Brazil, etc. A lot of the suppliers started from nothing years ago and are thriving. Check out Positivo in Brazil:
They also ship that other OS, but are not shy to advertise GNU/Linux on their site unlike other OEMs and they are shipping GNU/Linux in bulk, even supplying one laptop per child in schools in Brazil. Walmart sells Positivo machines and GNU/Linux are the best-sellers.
“There are a lot of this hobbyist class stuff selling in china that there is no why in hell it can run Windows. Even Windows RT does not work on a Allwinner A10.”
And nobody will give a crap. I past experience is any guide these systems will simply go nowhere except possibly as microcontrollers.
“oldman you should be old enough. Notice how the raspberry pi and cubieboards are kinda throw backs to the first hobbyist computers.”
You forget that in 1975 there was no such thing as a personal desktop computer. The only computers one that existed were big expensive and shared. In the context of that time those first hobbyist kits were indeed for some an exciting chance to have ones own personal computer and the work done with them sparked a revolution.
Flash forward 40 years and small prototype boards are simply IMHO a curiosity beyond possibly an imbedded systems engineer who might be looking for a micro-controller. For the average non hobbyist type who is looking for pogsons archetypal small cheap computer (IMHO = cheap crappy computer), there are simply too many off the shelf options that will give a more useful reward for tinkering.
Increasing sales of these prototyping systems for home usage is evidence.
What evidence? All that is showing is some add page from a Chinese discounter web site. The old expression “he found a button and sewed a shirt on it” seems to apply here in such an attempt to infer a vast commerce from a single offering.
The only statistic in existence is the web counts which are a direct measure of usage in some sort of general environment. Whether those statistics can be accurate projected to other environments is indeed a valid question, but there is nothing at all that suggests that Linux is a major factor in Asia or anywhere else in terms of desktop PC commerce.
The trade press is silent on that topic and very loud about many other things, such as the expected effect of Windows 8/RT on tablet and phone sales. If Linux PCs were a big market item, there would be many articles writted offering opinions as to its direction. There are none and that is a strong indicator that such commerce is a myth.
For that matter, there isn’t even a myth surrounding Linux PC production outside of this blog.
oiaohm wrote, “Increasing sales of these prototyping systems for home usage is evidence.”
True but there’s far more than that. The market in China cannot be controlled by M$ as they did the PC in the 1980s/90s. There’s no way M$ will get away with the kind of corruption they spread globally in China today. The official government policy is to be independent in IT within five years. M$ will be just another software company long before that. The Chinese can make their own software and they don’t need M$ restricting what they can do with PCs. They will within a few years be able to make all their own hardware too. Now Loongson is still limited but at least it’s home-grown. You can bet the next generation of Loongson will be widely used in China. What it costs them to produce stuff will be largely offset by not paying Wintel monopoly prices and ARM will be price-competitive.
oldman china is this stuff as well. http://cubieboard.org So china is more mixed cpu types than USA.
Cubieboard is going to enter the market at the same price as the raspberry pi.
oldman you should be old enough. Notice how the raspberry pi and cubieboards are kinda throw backs to the first hobbyist computers.
There are a lot of this hobbyist class stuff selling in china that there is no why in hell it can run Windows. Even Windows RT does not work on a Allwinner A10.
Clarence Moon
–If Linux really had some traction, there would be some evidence that you could use.–
Increasing sales of these prototyping systems for home usage is evidence. Web numbers from inside china is hard. The great china firewall sees a lot of people stay on china hosted sites without outside advertising so most count sites used will not be counting china.
Clarence Moon So there is evidence of something going on. The question is exactly what. Are these arm prototypes boards going to keep on growing like the PC prototypes grew. If so what will the final result look like and will it still be Linux only.
At 1G of ram these machines are quite usable.
This is a big change hardware that open design and being made particularly to run Linux solutions.
So, the government of China adopted GNU/Linux years ago and is a huge organization. Think .35% fits?
Well, the issue is client PC OS, isn’t it? That is what is measured by the web stats. If the ChiComs use a lot of Linux servers, they are serving Windows clients apparently. Also, the magnificent sum of $6 million bucks is about 10 minutes revenue for Windows. That doesn’t sound like a raging market for Linux server OS in China. Didn’t you notice the lightweight revenue numbers there>
Don’t you also feel a little exposed with having to wave your hands and discredit any and all sources of statistics that measure OS usage via web presence? If Linux really had some traction, there would be some evidence that you could use.
oldman wrote, “given the high rate pf piracy of windows and commercial software in the BRIC countries, it is far more likely that the linux in china forms that same function as FreeDOS on Dell systems sold in the USA.”
Given that Dell sells GNU/Linux systems in China and FreeDOS in USA, I doubt that. Dell is actually advertising GNU/Linux there trying to attract customers. Why would they spend 1¢ doing that when they could just serve the FreeDOS units from behind the counter?
oldman, the proposition that a country that clamps down on illegal businesses of all kinds including executing fraudsters and that the government uses GNU/Linux internally, there is little credence to this myth. Further, China acknowledges that technical know-how is in short supply, so who it converting the PCs? Your theory is weak. It might have been true a few years ago when the PC was just a luxury item in China. Now there are more PCs in China than in USA and that’s hard to beat considering USA has two per household. China likes GNU/Linux and it has the rapidly growing market to support hardware and software businesses by the thousands, not just a few biggies. The little guys will sell GNU/Linux if the big guys won’t.
Dell has a full-on press in India and China selling GNU/Linux.
Apologies that should be:
“entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitate”
“The Chinese have no difficulty finding GNU/Linux PCs online as we do in Canada/USA.”
Unfortunately, given the high rate pf piracy of windows and commercial software in the BRIC countries, it is far more likely that the linux in china forms that same function as FreeDOS on Dell systems sold in the USA.
As a scientist by training, I would think that you would remember the principle:
“Entia sun multiplicandem praeter necessitate”
OF course I realize that adhering to this time honored principle knocks a hole in your beliefs, but then that is your problem not ours.
Clarence Moon quoting faulty web stats wrote, “in China, some 0.35%.”
Hmmm… How did they measure share in China with very few Chinese browsing their site?
There are more Chinese surfers than USA yet they record three times more hits from USA. Only 10% of sites they monitor are “content” sites so there’s plenty of room for bias. Imagine if the majority of the Chinese hits are to microsoft.com, eh? Imagine what happens after weighting by population?
“The Net Market Share data is weighted by country. We compare our traffic to the CIA Internet Traffic by Country table, and weight our data accordingly. For example, if our global data shows that Brazil represents 2% of our traffic, and the CIA table shows Brazil to represent 4% of global Internet traffic, we will count each unique visitor from Brazil twice.” So, they could be multiplying stats already biased in China by a large factor. Nice, eh?
Consider some real Chinese stats:
2004: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-06/13/content_450800.htm
“According to US-based market research firm International Data Corp (IDC), the sales of Linux operating systems for servers reached US$6.85 million in 2004, and the sales from desktop-use copies were US$2.45 million. Government users in China purchased 28 per cent and 26 per cent, respectively, of those systems.”
So, the government of China adopted GNU/Linux years ago and is a huge organization. Think .35% fits?
The Chinese have no difficulty finding GNU/Linux PCs online as we do in Canada/USA.
Accusing Brazilians of violating copyright is the best you can do?
Well, I think that I am accusing Chines of violating copyright more precisely, but I also note that Linux has a very low web presence in China, some 0.35%. So how else to explain it? You could argue that next to none of the Linux PCs selling like hotcakes in China are ever used on the internet, owners preferring to just grep and awk and whatnot, but that seems rather farfetched. Given the myriad of articles decrying Windows piracy in China, it seems more likely that they are installing Windows and not paying Redmond. That should warm your hard heart!
Why would they mess with a perfectly functional PC?
For starters, it is not perfectly functional in most users minds since it lacks Windows. Due to the volume of the piracy reported there, it is likely that Chinese have become rather adept at the process, much like teens and even pre-teens in the Western World have learned to touch type on a 12 key text pad.
Clarence Moon wrote, “Given the web stats for China though, it seems likely that Linux computers are purchased there and quickly re-imaged”.
Accusing Brazilians of violating copyright is the best you can do? Do you really believe the typical user anywhere even knows how to do that? Why would they mess with a perfectly functional PC?
I followed the links to learn that the best-selling Lenovo notebook in China at 360buy.com runs GNU/Linux.
Perhaps they were just pulling your leg, Mr. Pogson, how would you ever know? Even so, it must be frustrating to always have these victories showing up in such odd places. Doubtless you never get to China as often as you would need to in order to shop 360buy.com for your next Thinkpad. I suspect that you would most likely just buy a used one on eBay and pave it over with the Debian that you so often recommend. (“I’m Bob Pogson and I approve this message!”)
Given the web stats for China though, it seems likely that Linux computers are purchased there and quickly re-imaged with a pirated Windows copy, much the same way that they are in Brazil.
Thorsten Rahn wrote, “Laptops built for Linux — where are they?”
While there are many more OEMs around the world building ATX boxes for GNU/Linux there are some building notebooks.
In China, government research develops COTS designs for notebooks and any startup can use the design to build a notebook. A lot of these have GNU/Linux installed. Those notebooks were not built for that other OS but any OS. Same with many of the big OEMs although they may not advertise they will build notebooks with GNU/Linux for large orders.
e.g. Lenovo sold 300K notebooks with GNU/Linux to ELCOT.
I followed the links to learn that the best-selling Lenovo notebook in China at 360buy.com runs GNU/Linux. It’s a Thinkpad, one of their flagship products.
Thorsten Rahn
–Laptops built for Linux — where are they? Simple. There aren’t laptops built for Linux. There are merely some companies which resell laptops which have shown to work considerably well with Linux as Linux-compatible laptops.–
Dell and HP and others do Microsoft, Redhat and SUSE certified laptops.
–There are merely some companies which resell laptops which have shown to work considerably well with Linux as Linux-compatible laptops.–
In fact no the major Linux distributions for enterprise have a certification process. Just like Microsoft has a certification process.
http://h71028.www7.hp.com/enterprise/cache/569891-0-0-0-121.html
Yes dell has a list that passes SUSE certification and Redhat certification.
Thorsten Rahn
–Yeah, that’s pretty much all Linux’s fault. On Windows it works flawlessly. The humble user expects the same from Linux, but he soon will know better.–
Lot of cases you find if you install windows on these machines showing these issues with Linux and avoid installing makers drivers they play up merry hell. Why because a soft firmware fix has been placed in drivers. Its simple to mess up the drivers for the machine to not obey standard than have users update firmware and the machine appears to work. As long as it appears to work until the warnity runs out the hardware maker profits.
Also when you get the list from company with a certification list you notice particular machines are not certified even if brother with basically identical motherboard is. Hello buggy bios fixed by making buggy drivers.
Result is the machines showing these problems running Linux should never install standard drivers from Windows update or the machine will play up merry hell as well in most cases.
This is why when buying a laptop it pays to get the makers certification lists. If it Redhat, SUSE and Microsoft certified the hardware is bios bug free as possible and will be less likely beat you over the head just because you opps and install a generic driver.
There are 2 test suite for bios’s in fact Thorsten Rahn that must be run and passed. Redhat and SUSE use the same one and Microsoft has there own. Non Certified hardware has no promise that the fitted Bios is sane.
Thorsten Rahn you don’t want a lemon laptop right.
–Why then do you have to buy Linux-compatible hardware?–
You should listen to the Linux developers talk about Bios developers. Like some EFI motherboards were found writing into a memory address after OS has started running crashing windows and Linux. Solution for windows add a driver to mask out memory space. Not fix the fact that the EFI implementation on motherboard is buggy. Bend the OS and hope the user never has to install with a generic windows disc because its not going to work ever. Linux kernel detects those motherboards. Yes those Windows 7 laptops cannot have Windows 8 installed it just will not work. So go out buy retail Windows 8 and have failure. Suxes to be the person who has that non certified laptop right.
Again never had that problem.
“Works for me” is neither excuse nor explanation.
You took some generic laptop and converted it right. Not some laptop built for Linux with Linux compatible parts.
Laptops built for Linux — where are they? Simple. There aren’t laptops built for Linux. There are merely some companies which resell laptops which have shown to work considerably well with Linux as Linux-compatible laptops.
Linux evangelists like Greg Kroah-Hartman stress that Linux supports much more hardware than Windows, which implies that a modern Linux distribution should at least support everything which works on Windows 7. Why then do you have to buy Linux-compatible hardware?
I don’t know if you frequent Linux forums where normal Linux users live, but these users don’t want to buy Linux-compatible hardware. They want to buy the stuff that’s on offer in the stores, and they expect that it works. The more delusional among these people will swallow it whole that it’s the OEM’s fault, and Microsoft’s fault, and Steve Ballmer’s fault, and so on. They then will try to get crap running with the help of esoteric workarounds. They are a lost cause. Some can be cured and will get rid of Linux as fast as possible.
So you would have like buggy bios chips where the lid does not connect up right. wifi that screws up and audio that can be from hell.
Yeah, that’s pretty much all Linux’s fault. On Windows it works flawlessly. The humble user expects the same from Linux, but he soon will know better.
TM wrote, “in any business, the cost of software is usually the smallest investment one has to make.”
That may be true in large businesses with economies of scale but in small businesses in a home office, say, software may be huge especially with M$, Adobe, AutoDesk etc. In fact, a consultancy may have very small capital assets except software.
Schools, I know best. At Easterville, the school cost $28million but they only spent $100K on IT apart from the network cabling. They planned to spend only a few $K annually on IT whereas many businesses spend 3% of revenue on IT. The big costs in operating schools are salaries, energy/transportation, maintenance. IT would be near last, somewhere below paperclips. OTOH, educational consultants who visit schools and help planning or training teachers may have a small home office with little but a computer, a projector and a few books. They do spend more on transportation than IT but IT is right up there. Schools tend not to be small businesses, but medium/large ones.
Small and startup businesses are often short of cash. Throwing it at M$ is foolish under the circumstances. Large businesses would be wise to spend more on hardware and less on software as FLOSS allows. That’s why FLOSS is terribly popular on servers. FLOSS is only moderately popular on client machines mostly because M$ wanted it that way and twisted a lot of arms to make it so.
The world spends many $billions on IT and way too much on software the world could produce at cost with FLOSS. Any business that can afford to pay way more than the cost of a service is foolish. They don’t do that with rent, lighting or labour.
Thorsten Rahn wrote, “Be useful. Your tomatoes can wait.”
No, they cannot. It’s a race between me, the weather, the mice and the bacteria. I am winning, however.
On the software front, I plan to install a database I have found useful for years of MealMaster recipes gleaned from the web. I have the database backed up and examined the code today. I will consult with my PHP-expert son about whether to use PHP or Pascal/CGI for the web interface. It’s not much but I enjoy this kind of stuff. Of course there’s planning the hunt, finishing off the rest of the garden (beets, corn, carrots and pumpkin) to say nothing of the weeds. I have also collected hundreds of tree-seeds to sprout over the winter. Somewhere in between all that and storing stuff from the old workshop I will find some time to code.
TM Repository I was waiting for this defence.
–Put up or shut up. Claiming you’re “too busy with other things†isn’t exactly an excuse when the rest of us so called “Microsoft shills†(many of whom use OSX, oddly enough) are contributing more to open source than you are.–
Since you have lost arguement is now Troll play book 101. I contribute more than you defence.
Simple reality here you have been saying bogus arguments. There is more ways to contribute than just code.
Also I find it interesting that OS X support in most of the FOSS projects I deal with is horrible due to lack of developers TM Repository. So you must be a real rarity.
TM Repository
–We have to carry our own weight and the rest of you freeloaders and be constantly insulted the entire time based on the operating systems we use?–
My offensiveness with you is the fact you have been spreading miss truths because you did not know how todo stuff properly.
–Don’t you understand what a “tranparent OS†is? It means I don’t have to think about the OS because it doesn’t get in the way!–
To me Debian and Scientific Linux is transparent.
–I don’t have to think about it updates don’t leave my computer unusable.–
My computer has not been.
–I don’t have to spend my weekends searching forums for obscure fixes to my wifi problems–
Interesting enough never had a problem with that. Due to the fact I have always used Linux certified hardware.
–battery issues on my laptop, or the machine not going to sleep when I close the lid–
Again never had that problem. You took some generic laptop and converted it right. Not some laptop built for Linux with Linux compatible parts. So you would have like buggy bios chips where the lid does not connect up right. wifi that screws up and audio that can be from hell.
–grub2 getting pooched–
My systems are pure Linux no Windows. Reduces your boot-loader problems to basically non existent.
–the API/ABI changing underneath me as I try to port my desktop app.–
Never had that problem because I am using Linux Standard Base. So I can stop at any ABI point I want with my own created applications.
Just like you buy a Apple machine to run OS X. I buy machines intentionally to run Linux. Result massively less problems.
Taking some generic machine and installing Windows or OS X can be a major migraine.
TM Repository the reality Linux on hardware for Linux treats you just as well as OS X on hardware for OS X and Windows on Hardware for Windows.
Some of my Linux machines hate Windows 7 due to particular parts in them they don’t have Windows 7 drivers and Windows ends up red screen of death in the installer. Yes does cause a few people what the.
TM Repository reality you have you hand bitten because you have been foolish. A person like me has not avoided spending money to have the right hardware to run Linux.
Linux distributions run on a broad range of hardware but there is limited hardware it runs perfectly without tweaking. Same is true for windows. OS X on non apple hardware is a real prick.
Basically TM Repository you thought you could forgot about having matched hardware because its Linux. Reality does not agree with that stupid idea.
“Great, Rob. Then go and make some software. Be useful. Your tomatoes can wait. I’m sure you can write some fabulous programs with Free Pascal. Until then the world has decided that it needs Microsoft.”
Exactly Robert, Put up or shut up. Claiming you’re “too busy with other things” isn’t exactly an excuse when the rest of us so called “Microsoft shills” (many of whom use OSX, oddly enough) are contributing more to open source than you are.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. We have to carry our own weight and the rest of you freeloaders and be constantly insulted the entire time based on the operating systems we use?
“Don’t be too sure.”
You’re saying I’m not sure about my own productivity when it comes to contributing to open source?
“How much maintenance do you think I have todo on Debian and Scientific Linux. Mostly bugger all. Of course I have been smart building stuff to use Linux Standard Base for what ever I build so I can isolate that from distribution modification if required. Also just move what I have built between distributions without problems.”
Yeah, I don’t want to have to deal with that crap and I don’t have to on Windows and OSX. Don’t you understand what a “tranparent OS” is? It means I don’t have to think about the OS because it doesn’t get in the way!
I don’t have to think about it updates don’t leave my computer unusable, I don’t have to spend my weekends searching forums for obscure fixes to my wifi problems, or battery issues on my laptop, or the machine not going to sleep when I close the lid, or grub2 getting pooched, or the API/ABI changing underneath me as I try to port my desktop app.
Once again, Windows and OSX give me more time to contribute to open source!
TM Repository
–Sure, every penny counts, but my time is more valuable than a hundred dollars every 3 years. Dicking around with an OS that should be transparent in the first place is not what I’d call productive.–
That is the thing that gets me. I have used Debian and Scientific Linux heavily.
–Windows and OSX give me more time to contribute to open source!–
Don’t be too sure. How much maintenance do you think I have todo on Debian and Scientific Linux. Mostly bugger all. Of course I have been smart building stuff to use Linux Standard Base for what ever I build so I can isolate that from distribution modification if required. Also just move what I have built between distributions without problems.
Also there is no requirement just to choose Linux or Windows or OS X these days either.
TM Repository I have stayed away from ubuntu for very good reasons when you see someone applying patches to move menu to top of screen that are not approved upstream you know there is going to be trouble with the default packages. Some behaviours tell you a distribution will be trouble.
History of Linux is a sad one. The Most popular distribution also historically happens to be the most broken.
TM Repository
–No, I’m saying that in any business, the cost of software is usually the smallest investment one has to make.–
Correct and incorrect. The software you choose can define how much maintenance you have todo and how that maintenance is done even who can do it.
Like if an area of staff can do there job perfectly from thin client servers. The result is massive reduction is how much floor area IT officers have to travel doing repairs. IT Office time costs you plus all the staff disrupted by the down machine.
TM Repository
–Even in a home office, a single person spends more money on toilet paper in a fiscal year than a OSX or Windows license.–
The reality it does not scale up. Home Office normally the home user is the maintenance person. When you get larger this changes. Travel to repair the machines back to operational becomes a factor.
Who you can trust is also a factor. You can trust giving an end user a thin-client to cart back to their desk and plug in. You cannot always trust a user to carry a thick client back. Why less moving parts in the thin client next the device is lighter so light in fact if they drop it on there foot they will not break foot badly(at worst a scratch) or thin client. Full PC dropped on foot different matter for human foot and Full PC. A person with time off work due to dropping PC on foot takes some explaining particularly like why was a non IT officer moving that. Yes funny enough where I am IT officer wearing steel caps are mandatory just in case so dropping computer on foot is less likely to break something human. Finally steal a thin client what business data is on it. Nothing.
There is basically a size point for commercial where Windows is no longer such a good buy.
In fact some businesses have seen a massive cost saving doing oddish mixes of Linux and Windows. Like clonezilla with harddrive diagnostics with all laptops with portable drive large enough to clone the harddrive a few times. The laptop might be still windows but the clone software allows users in the field to clone damaged harddrive state and if harddrive in machine is fine restore from prior image. If harddrive damaged possibly get a new harddrive fitted somewhere in field and restore company image. Again its travel less to when machine works again is better.
So some solutions are mixture Linux, Windows. Thing is you can hide clonezilla with harddrive diagnostics behind a gui so its more user-friendly.
TM Repository its not like you need to fork out for Nortons Ghost for every laptop when Clonezilla does the job and you can make the interface look less scary.
The answer is shades of grey. TM Repository. Each case has to be done on a case by case base.
It might be true that Windows suites what you are doing. It also might be true that you choose a bad distribution for stability off the bat. Did not know how to build cross distribution properly so now are suffering from once bitten twice shy making up all kinds of excuses to cover that fact up from you.
Really site down write a full and complete list of what you do and need todo. Including how important current software is for each task. From there you will have some idea what you need.
The world can make its own software. We don’t need M$ and its restrictions on what we can do with our IT hardware.
Great, Rob. Then go and make some software. Be useful. Your tomatoes can wait. I’m sure you can write some fabulous programs with Free Pascal. Until then the world has decided that it needs Microsoft.
“TM, advocating that businesses throw money to the wind…”
No, I’m saying that in any business, the cost of software is usually the smallest investment one has to make.
Staff are the real cost; I should know. Even in a home office, a single person spends more money on toilet paper in a fiscal year than a OSX or Windows license. Assuming I’m a real keener and upgrade as soon as possible, the Windows release cycle gives me 3 years to amortize the cost of a license. An OEM of Windows runs about $100, so that’s $33 a year.
However, Linux machines from other vendors like Dell are no cheaper than buying one with Windows. So why would I invest in something that’s going to force me to waste my weekends fixing its issues. I’d much rather spend them relaxing or perhaps working on my own projects? Don’t you get it yet? Windows and OSX give me more time to contribute to open source!
Sure, every penny counts, but my time is more valuable than a hundred dollars every 3 years. Dicking around with an OS that should be transparent in the first place is not what I’d call productive.
TM Repository
–Ubuntu, Arch, Suse and Debian were like playing a coconut game of “which one will break this build this weekâ€.–
You have not said when I am getting more and more sus this was pre ABI conformance testing frameworks being used in a more dominate way.
Also more you say the more I know you were not using Linux Standard Base to level the problems.
You cannot make all users switch to the same distribution but you can make all users depend on the same libraries for your application. So killing most problems dead.
TM Repository
–I can tell you that Facebooks HTML, CSS, Javascript (and presumably their underlying PHP) are all horrible, but guess what, nobody bloody cares because it’s a BETTER EXPERIENCE!–
Really code claim on PHP is a little wrong. Hiphop ( https://github.com/facebook/hiphop-php/wiki/ ) used by Facebook you need to try to build some horrible php with it. They really do need the same kind of auto auditing for the HTML and CSS. MySpace was pre auto auditing at the same level.
TM Repository quality of tools used to build/run the source are just as important as the application itself. Some of the advantage Facebook got over Myspace was less data loss due to backend failure. This was caused by improved tools.
TM Repository
–If your company can’t afford a few hundred dollars in software, you probably don’t have much hope of success. When a kid with a paper route can afford said software you don’t have many excuses.–
At times you are not talking a few hundred dollars. That few hundred dollars can equal enough money to have extra staff to answer customer requests so have happier customers and more business.
Its also not affording the software either. If the MS software is a bad fit it ends up costing your staff more time doing their job. Like Google developing on Windows machines to be using by Google search engine and sites that all run Linux is very wasteful thinking all the required tools will run slow on Windows.
–I don’t disagree that necessity brings innovation, but said necessity has already been met a long time ago. At this point, you’re just reinventing the wheel.–
Exactly what says that Microsoft is a proper shaped wheel for your business. The old saying round peg square hole. Alfreso+sugercrm can be a very good match for lots of businesses. Same with using ERP software like http://www.openbravo.com/ . This thing has customisations to suite particular businesses perfectly. You are not trying to make software work to the required business struct because its close.
I don’t fear paying for software. Thing with openbravo if for some reason you cannot pay like shutting down a business the business data is still accessible. Or when it comes to a disaster recovery you know the methods the data was stored using.
TM Repository
–And sometimes you just need that feature and you’re screwed without it.–
This is true. But there is a catch. You need the feature lot of cases need of feature does not put a requirement to say where that feature has to be addressed. Like it could be a web service like ERP/CRM/Alfresco it could be client side application.
Sometimes what Microsoft people address client side I would be addressing server side in a FOSS solution share between all users in real-time.
Like project management what says it has to be addressed by a client side program instead of a server side one.
By the way you could claim Exchange is reinventing wheel of the first major groupware server http://www.citadel.org/ . Only major thing citadel cannot do that Exchange can is talk MAPI.
Exchange does not support this.
— Server-to-server replication. Users in any number of domains can be spread out across any number of Citadel servers, allowing you to put data where you need it, and enabling infinite horizontal scalability. —
They are not kidding about the infinite horizontal citadel was designed for BBS servers with intermittent network connections. Great for remote locations suffering from flooding damaged Internet connections. This is the thing horizontal scale is where a lot of FOSS groupware servers can come into there own. So citadel handles a case of a split brain event in its cluster without resulting in nuts results.
As you said if you need a feature and don’t have it you are screwed. There are cases where exchange is a feature short. Same with share-point.
This is why its important to understand the broad range of solutions out there and the advantages.
Not always is Exchange or Sharepoint ahead all the time. Openchange to allow MAPI will on what ever open source group-ware server will require Exchange to pick its game up. People have not been paying for Outlook connectors to use the FOSS alternatives for Exchange for no good reason. Missing a feature they need is the biggest cause.
TM, advocating that businesses throw money to the wind, wrote, “If your company can’t afford a few hundred dollars in software, you probably don’t have much hope of success. When a kid with a paper route can afford said software you don’t have many excuses.”
There’s investment, hard work and making/taking opportunities, key elements of successful businesses and there’s throwing money to the wind where for no return on investment, one gives away money/effort. Sometimes those efforts have intangible benefits but making M$ fabulously wealthy does no one any good but M$’s fat cats. The world can make its own software. We don’t need M$ and its restrictions on what we can do with our IT hardware.
“Mediocre clone that does the job that is affordable to be rapid deployed where required. Is better than being caught without software.”
If your company can’t afford a few hundred dollars in software, you probably don’t have much hope of success. When a kid with a paper route can afford said software you don’t have many excuses.
“Sometimes something lacking a feature causes you to look at the problem a different way and find a different solution that ends up more productive.”
And sometimes you just need that feature and you’re screwed without it.
I don’t disagree that necessity brings innovation, but said necessity has already been met a long time ago. At this point, you’re just reinventing the wheel.
“You cannot test the superiority of that other OS without looking at the code so it may or may not be superior.”
Only an inexperienced idiot would claim this. That’d be like saying MySpace is superior to Facebook because it has better code. Guess what, nobody who uses either cares. You know what they do care about? Usability, features and ease of use.
Facebook took over because it was easier to use (no html editing), had better features (image tagging, made the wall the focus, embedding, etc.). I can tell you that Facebooks HTML, CSS, Javascript (and presumably their underlying PHP) are all horrible, but guess what, nobody bloody cares because it’s a BETTER EXPERIENCE!
Get it?
“No, it isn’t. Good code is good code, whether you can see it or not. Only by your arbitrary (and stupid) definition does it go “bad†when you can’t see it.”
Exactly. Just like some kid releasing his or her drawings on Deviant Art doesn’t make them good artists. Just because I can see the pencil lines on their poorly rendered anime fan art doesn’t mean they’re any good.
There are talented people in every community, but claiming the community is what made them talented is a claim only the talentless can make.
Pogson: “Use Debian.”
TM Repository: “I’m sure Pog would just say “target Debian onlyâ€.”
Hah, you actually said it and in the same damn post too!
How exactly does “using debian” help me create a cross-distro desktop app when one of the desktops keeps breaking mid-development cycle? Don’t for a second believe that Ubuntu was the only culprit either, since Debian blew it’s stack a few times on innocuous things during this same development cycle.
Ubuntu, Arch, Suse and Debian were like playing a coconut game of “which one will break this build this week”. Too bad I don’t have the power to force my users to use a particular OS or distro any more than I have the power to force them to use a particular browser. The difference is, it’s actually possible to gain browser parity to some degree; With desktop linux, it’s a full time job. And so that poor app never got ported because of the resource drain.
oldman
–(Cue the hamster trying to prove me wrong 😉 )–
I don’t have to prove you wrong. Its not about being able todo every feature. Its about being able todo the features you need.
–Beyond that they are at best mediocre clones of the commercial originals.–
Mediocre clone that does the job that is affordable to be rapid deployed where required. Is better than being caught without software.
Sometimes something lacking a feature causes you to look at the problem a different way and find a different solution that ends up more productive. This is why its important not to be tunnelled visioned. Software to a business is a sum of parts problem.
iLia Mono GTK support is also not complete.
http://developer.gnome.org/gtk/2.24/gtk-migrating-GtkBuilder.html
There is a reason why Glade is deprecated and you just stated it because mono instructions are really old not just buggy. 2.12-2.14 GTK+ is a long time ago. GtkBuilder gives error messages a human stands a chance solving.
Mono instructions still have you using I am a pain glade.
http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gtkbuilder.html
iLia basically the Mono tutorial is obsolete method by GTK+. That you only use if you want the legacy support.
The glade support is backwards compatibility. So I guess you are wanting to work on distributions with GTK prior to 14 Sep 2007-4 Sep 2008 without having to ship GTK with your program. Due to the issues I would say bundle GTK+.
iLia now understand why us who know GTK look at the Mono introduction tutorial and go why in hell are you taking us down that path of pain. Take new users down the modern path first then suggest using Glade for legacy support.
Also the newer prevents the confused from hell event two windows active at the same time with the same id but with completely different contents. Yes glade can be a complete insane prick due to the fact you can have multi active windows of exactly the same ID. GtkBuilder forbids the completely insane event.
Even if you are going to use Glade in final its still worth while converting your Glade to GtkBuilder to make sure you don’t have Duplicate ID nasties hiding.
This is one I end up in python and other languages instead of Mono. The instructions are modern and they don’t end up with me pulling hair out. Due to events like you just described.
I found out why I couldn’t run this simple application — one misplaced character in a string literal, but no comprehensive error message, something like “windowq symbol was not defined” or something like this.
And the first Glade example of the tutorial was actually not complete, they omitted [Widget]s’ session and window1.ShowAll (); line of code.
So one developers error (you see I admit that I was not right (unlike some nerdish trolls with weird nicknames)), not a very good tutorial and the inability of gladelib to provide good error messages are to blame.
Hey, what about Glade, it seams to me that this guy also broke backward API compatibility.
And I spend more then 3 hours trying to compile and run a simple tutorial Mono + Glade application, but the best thing I got was this error:
(glade:6463): libglade-CRITICAL **: glade_xml_build_interface: assertion `wid != NULL' failedAnd it seams to me that this error comes from Gladess packages, not Mono’s.
now I have two glades one my computer Glade 3.8.0 and Glade 3.10.0 the 3.8.0 can be run only through console, regardless the fact that in the “Programming” menu there are two “Glade” menu items.
Maybe I need some different versions of some mono, gtk+ (I already have gtk+ 2 and gtk+ 3) packages, I have no idea.
Openness is one of the qualities of good code.
No, it isn’t. Good code is good code, whether you can see it or not. Only by your arbitrary (and stupid) definition does it go “bad” when you can’t see it.
On the other hand, according to you, opening code makes it good (or at least better), even if it’s bad. Total BS. SourceForge is living proof.
Bill Gates said, like Joseph Goebbels before him: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
And I see now that you’ve told yourself this lie often enough.
Kozmcrae is a big, fat liar. (Repeat 100x)
But it’s a funny thing, there are quite a few sites which have documented Gates’ anti-trust e-mails. On none of them it can be found what you claim. Did you hack into Bill Gates’ e-mail account? Or is it just that…
Kozmcrae is a big, fat, lying Linux fanboy. (Repeat 100x)
Why are so many Linux fanboys pathological cases?
“You cannot test the superiority of that other OS without looking at the code so it may or may not be superior.”
Robert Pogson, I doubt that you would know what you were looking let alone have the expertise to assess it at if you were aboe to look at the code for windows.
I do the tests that count. I test the superiority of the applications that run on it by using them and then comparing that usage with my attempts to use the FOSS equivalents. The FOSS version lack function and feature that I have on the commercial applications that I use. Beyond that they are at best mediocre clones of the commercial originals.
IMHO it is safe to say that there has not been one desktop FOSS application that has truly been superior to its commercial equivalent That I have seen
(Cue the hamster trying to prove me wrong 😉 )
Thorsten Rahn wrote:
“Stop dancing around in your tutu costume and prove that he said it. Or else we can call you a liar with good reason.”
So you admit to calling me a liar for bad reasons. Stop dancing? Not when I’m having this much fun.
Besides, there’s no proving anything with the Cult of Microsoft. I’ve seen you in action ever since you’ve been to this blog and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything, of importance, proven to you. It’s not that anyone has ever tried, it’s that nothing is ever good enough for you.
Bill Gates said, like Joseph Goebbels before him: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
oldman wrote, “the lie of the superiority of FOSS”.
You cannot test the superiority of that other OS without looking at the code so it may or may not be superior. Compared with software that we can examine the code, FLOSS is the best by definition. Openness is one of the qualities of good code. M$ doesn’t have it.
It’s certainly no lie that many millions have examined FLOSS code and find it works for them. Indeed analysis of errors per thousand lines of code shows FLOSS is as good as or better than that closed stuff. There are no doubt good programmers in both camps but one camp is ordered around by salesmen and you get what they give you. That’s a huge opportunity for bad code.
M$:“The only counter argument to make here is that current PC technology is totally sufficient for most office tasks and consumer desires and that any performance bottleneck is not in today’s PCs but in today’s COM pipes. This in itself might slow down replacement cycles and life time shortening until we find true MIPS eating applications- a priority not only INTEL should subscribe to.”
I take that to mean M$ intentionally seeks bad code to make systems sluggish so users will buy newer faster systems and pay for an additional licence. Vista was a prime example of that and it cost M$ in quality of code which they cared less about than messing with competition.
Robert Pogson I will kinda yell at you hear even using Debian raw this can bite you. If you are building a binary you need to work in the future independent of what the distribution does or even what distribution you will be using and you don’t want to have to be rebuilding it. The answer is always use Linux Standard Base solution.
They key here is the Linux Standard Base Loaders that allows applications to have there own collection of libraries independent to the distribution provided libraries. So now you can bundle up every library the application uses if everything you use is not defined in the standard.
Without this you run into pain. This is the problem there is a clear answer to TM Repository problem. TM Repository is with knowing it causing the problem.
Now if people like TM Repository were screaming about the right thinks that the default build is not Linux Standard Base and this is driving them up wall we might be able to get somewhere.
Screaming that the ABI breaks all the time when it don’t really will get you nowhere. Claiming Windows as has stable ABI when it don’t also will get you no where.
Reason is people like TM Repository never looked close enough at windows applications to work out why they appear to work for 15 years straight to find they are shipping with most of the ABI they depend on. Once you find this you know what you need. You need a dynamic loader that allows you to load libraries independent to every other application on the system. If you search for that for Linux you will be lead to the Linux Standard Base.
The answer is nothing like what the people from TM Repository claim. The answer has been sitting there for years waiting for people to use it.
TM Repository
–No it isn’t. Linux is its own bad press, especially for developers. People like me tried to develop apps for Linux desktop but Ubuntu updates would literally break builds during the development process.–
So you are development for Ubuntu. You are not developing for the Stable ABI. Then you cry fowl when it kicks you in teeth. Where you using the Linux Standard Base SDK yes or no. Answer will be no. So you are mixed up with a stack of libraries that are not ABI stable. This is part your own fault and part that no one is saying the truth.
TM Repository
–It changes from version to version meaning the binary must be recompiled every time the ABI is updated.–
If you have used the stable Linux Standard Base ABI’s and loader this is a lie. Also you are running into this trouble because you would be using Ubuntu dynamic link loader instead of the Linux Standard Base dynamic link loader. One loader is made for third parties one is made for distribution only. If you build for distribution only you have to put up with every time the distribution changes. You lack the option of installing your own runtime parts if you use the distributions own dynamic link loader.
If you are using the Linux Standard Base dynamic link loader and a library is missing or altered badly you can do exactly like you do with windows install the library in the install directory of your application. So now distribution stupidity is not your problem.
TM Repository
–Meanwhile, most 15 year old binaries in Windows continue to work because the ABI is stable.–
This is not true. If you notice windows program installers are normally larger than Linux Distribution ones. Why because the windows programs ship with every library that has a unstable ABI with them. Nothing todo with Windows ABI being stable. Its the fact the applications basically ship with the ABI they need.
You know like the .net runtime the c++ runtimes that you bundle in with your windows applications when you build them. So they work when deployed.
Basically if developers would treat Linux the same way treat windows really with installers checking if the dependency of program is installed if not installing the run-times they need they would have far less problems.
TM Repository
–Fundamental things like querying for whether a wifi connection existed would change between minor kernel versions.–
Exactly what is a general user program doing touching the network stack by kernel. ifconfig and networkmanager. ifconfig is legacy but its still there. Remember query a wifi configuration under windows also changes when you update drivers. This also causing some programs under windows to scream badly if they are going direct to the card driver instead of one of the extensions that are stable.
TM Repository Ubuntu is not Linux. The Linux Foundation is Linux. This is where the Linux Standard Base is.
What you do TM Repository by developing for Ubuntu provided is like developing a Java application then complaining it don’t work on a different machine because java is not installed because your installer failed to check and install it if it was required.
TM Repository basically there are two paths to making a Linux application. The stupid idiots path
I will use everything the distribution provides that is designed to be updated synced with itself. So you get hurt badly. People get hurt under windows for design things depending on Internet explorer when it updates as well. So there is areas of Windows don’t touch or you will get hurt. Linux area of don’t touch or you will get hurt is larger.
Or you go the Linux Standard Base path that is design for closed source developers and provides all the frameworks you need including a dynamic link loader that allows you to have your own .so files independent to every other application installed on the system. So fixing the ABI changed between version of library problems in the same way you fix it under Windows. Under windows same problem you place the effected library in the directory with the application.
TM Repository the simple reality here is your are incompetent to develop programs for Linux. There are people who are incompetent at developing programs for windows. You know the ones you install them they don’t work and it due to like vb runtime missing because their installer never checked.
Yes one of the things that annoys me about distributions is that their build system defaults to building for that distribution only instead of Linux Standard Base.
TM Repository if you are needing to rebuild your binary because a library has changed you are using the wrong dynamic link loader. Library changed ship library problem solved.
This is something people don’t know. Linux uses a little static program to load dynamic binaries. Linux kernel does not have a clue how to load any dynamic binaries in user-space. So you are free even to make you own dynamic loader that behaves how ever you want. But for simple side Linux Standard Base includes 2. One that is a library and one that you can stub on at the start of a binary. These 2 loaders work on all distributions.
TM Repository what you are saying is FUD. You never research the topic properly before attempting to build programs.
TM wrote, “Ubuntu updates would literally break builds during the development process. “
Use Debian.
“Issue has been people spreading FUD and lack of a rallying point for the closed source developers.”
No it isn’t. Linux is its own bad press, especially for developers. People like me tried to develop apps for Linux desktop but Ubuntu updates would literally break builds during the development process. Fundamental things like querying for whether a wifi connection existed would change between minor kernel versions.
That’s why desktop Linux needs people like you and Pogson to be a cheer squad; A hostile PR firm. Because if desktop Linux was as good as you guys claim it is, it would sell itself!
“TM Repository reality here. You complain about not having applications. Yet you are one who is walking around saying the Binary ABI does not exist when it does. So causing you to have less programs on Linux.”
Settle down long enough to read what I wrote. I didn’t say the ABI doesn’t exist, I said it’s unstable! It changes from version to version meaning the binary must be recompiled every time the ABI is updated. Meanwhile, most 15 year old binaries in Windows continue to work because the ABI is stable.
“You think it’s a lie that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?”
I do.
There’s no information about it whatsoever. You’d think it would be pretty easy to find if Gates said it. Especially with the Linux faithful hanging off his every word.
Ivan
–Your GeeGolly 6 pci-express won’t have a driver after this round of linux distribution releases, either, Pete. Turns out nVidia has dropped support for the 6000 and 7000 cards.–
Lier. The driver that supports 6000 and 7000 cards from Nvidia has become officially for Linux a legacy driver. This is where it gets no more opengl features. Yet is maintained compatible with the most current X11/wayland solution.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/unix.html
By default nvidia drivers have 2 numbers when there features of opengl will increase when they go legacy for Linux other Unix releated OS’s they get 3 numbers when they change to legacy. The third number is compatibility updates. Linux has binary drivers form nvidia cards all the way back to TNT2. You have not been able to use TNT2 on Windows for a very long time.
There is a reason why nvidia maintains Linux legacy drivers. The wrapper is basically identical between all drivers. Since in reality the Linux ABI/API has changed less than windows over the same time frame for what they need todo. With the automatic patching to port forwards the Linux kernel developers provide its bugger all effort for Nvidia to maintain these old drivers.
Notice Nvidia does not list distributions. There is no need to there packages are distribution netural.
Ivan you would also claim that nvidia has dropped support for TNT2. They reality is all platforms bar FreeBSD 32 bit and Linux 32bit and 64bit they have.
Linux has the longest term of support of any OS in 64 bit from Nvidia. In 32 bit FreeBSD is equal. Windows comes up very short.
The reality you will have drivers for Linux long after you have no drivers for Windows. Main reason why any binary driver on Linux has fully disappeared is when the FOSS equal driver out performs it.
TM Repository reality here. You complain about not having applications. Yet you are one who is walking around saying the Binary ABI does not exist when it does. So causing you to have less programs on Linux.
So being a road block to direct application release bypassing distributions.
Firefox for Linux from Mozilla ships as a tar.bz2 built binary. That runs on all Distributions. I can make a huge list of applications that you can get outside the distribution channels that work on all. Lot of these need a more user-friendly install system. Not a Binary ABI issue to run.
The means to get new applications than distribution provided simple is also being sabotaged by the false claim. Since people are not calling out for a simple install system that is distribution independent other than with games Desura. Yes Desura also uses 1 binary many distributions many times over. So cross distribution is well and truly proven.
The reality here is people like me, blame people from the likes of TM Repository and else where for cause us not to have the diversity of distribution independent applications we should have.
The FUD is strong that strong is been stopping eco system developing for closed source applications. Has not stopped it all Desura pushed its way past the FUD.
Yes the common excuse companies use about Linux is it too hard to release for all distributions. Because they are hearing the FUD and believing it.
This is why TM Repository does more harm than good. It goes around pushing FUD that is disproved as soon as you go get the evidence. In the case of binary ABI’s the tools that confirm if or if not binary compatibility exists. Programming is a science any claim about it just like science its possible to built an experiment to see if the claim is true or false. TM Repository does not use science based methods neither did the Linux Hater.
Now if TM Repository had a stack of experiments proven its tm and fud claims we would have something to work with. Expired tm and fud claims could then been proven. Same with valid ones could be proven. It would not be a source of FUD if this was done.
You don’t destroy lies be spreading more lies. By spreading more lies we don’t take you serous-ally.
iLia
–GTK+ 3 is a major new version of GTK+ that breaks both API and ABI compared to GTK+ 2.x
ABI compatibility?
API compatibility?
oiaohm, so who is an idiot now?–
You are the idiot. There is not a single distribution that has removed GTK+ 2.x. Heck GTK+ 1.X is still in most distributions.
Same reason why Windows has multi versions of the same library. ABI changes. Due to the ABI changing more often on Windows you end up with more copies core of libraries compared to Linux. Heck we are to 12 basic C lib libraries in Windows ABI shipped by default.
Windows developers have no problem installing C++ runtimes and VB runtimes of particular versions so there programs work. Yet for some reason they don’t do this with Linux. Even that Linux Standard Base made this possible.
Now of course most of the Trolls like you iLia are so dumb you miss something. Nvidia and ATI/AMD closed source video card drivers both install Graphical configuration tools. These graphical configuration tools work on all distributions. This graphical configuration tools are closed source.
You don’t have to look far to find direct evidence that you are talking garbage. Cross distribution GUI programs are possible have been done many times. Thinking the graphical configuration tools for video cards you find on most Linux users computers even if they don’t have any other closed source installed.
Issue has been people spreading FUD and lack of a rallying point for the closed source developers. Steam will provide a nice unified rallying point for closed source developers. So as long as it gets setup cross distribution properly everything will be good.
Developers come out all the time saying we want 10 years of ABI on Linux. The reality you are given 10 years of Stable ABI’s on Linux yet you still don’t release programs for Linux. About time you come up with a new excuses it has worn out. Yet for some reason closed source developers keep on making up bogus excuses.
iLia just because a library breaks ABI does not mean it will break your program. Why installed library names of gtk+ 1.x, 2.x, 3.x don’t overlap. So a system with gtk 3.x only a gtk 2.x program will fail to run because gtk 2.x is missing. This failure is the same as trying to run on windows when the version of MFC(microsoft foundation class) you used is not installed.
The reality does not match what people attempt to troll iLia.
You think it’s a lie that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?
When and where did Gates say that? Stop dancing around in your tutu costume and prove that he said it. Or else we can call you a liar with good reason.
“You think it’s a lie that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?”
I think it is a lie that your post make it sound as if he was the first and only one who said.
When called on it you then allowed that Josef Goebbels also said it. interestingly enough still maintaining the impression that somehow gates and goebbels are equal.
Yet no admission that Goebbels said it first well before gates quoted it. Shall we get this?
“It doesn’t matter if you care or not that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.”
Like the lie of the superiority of FOSS?
TM Repository wrote:
“So I guess you’re repeating the lie that gates made that statement in order to make it true?”
What lie?
You think it’s a lie that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?
You say you care about misinformation. There is a lot of misinformation concerning Microsoft. Microsoft has paid analysts to misinform the public about its competitors and its own historical evidence. These facts are not disputable.
You say you care about misinformation but you leave the biggest misinformer alone as if they are squeaky clean. We can’t take you seriously TM if all you do is rank on FLOSS advocates.
“It doesn’t matter if you care or not that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.”
So I guess you’re repeating the lie that gates made that statement in order to make it true?
Once again Pog, you’ll allow anyone to troll on your blog as long as they take your side. I really don’t give a damn about Gates, Jobs, Shuttleworth, etc. I care about misinformation. Because fanatics are so desperate, they’ll believe a lie if it suites their cause.
“Synaptic: “37639 packages listed, 2127 installed, 0 brokenâ€
If I can run a rich desktop with less than 1/10th of what Debian routinely ports to their distro, it must not be so that it’s a huge pain what works on X fails on Y etc.”
That’s totally dishonest because most of the packages are libraries and you know it. Go look at http://pypi.python.org/pypi and you might notice their numbers are very similar:
“The Python Package Index is a repository of software for the Python programming language. There are currently 23777 packages here.”
Wow, are people writing thousands of apps in Python and putting them on pypi? No, they’re mostly libraries and toolkits, that’s why.
Ironically, several of the libraries in Linux repositories are compatibility layers, desperately trying to abstract away the broken API/ABI. I can tell you from first hand experience, they don’t work as advertised.
Try writing a cross-distro app and you might realize this, Pogson. You’re just an inexperienced loudmouth malcontent who rides on the coat tails of others.
I am rallying some of those same trolls who helped us destroy the linux haters blog to assist us in our effort.
Self-delusion at work, part 1234. Linux Hater’s Blog wasn’t “destroyed” by trolls. It was “destroyed” by the fact that Linux today still sucks as much as in May 2008. It’s simply not worth dishing out the same articles again, as they already have been written. And each and every one of them is still relevant. Here, Adam, be a good troll and read LHB from start to finish:
http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/05/linux-sucks.html
Here’s what I am doing today. There’s a lot going on and a bunch of applications running plus I am networked all over the house to other PCs for various purposes including audio, video and still pictures. What more do you want me to do with my PCs?
My God, Rob, that’s one ugly desktop. The fonts alone are enough to give you eye cancer.
I also see that you’re using the proprietary Chrome. Shame on you! Even worse, you’re using Google Mail! WTF!? You’re like Google’s lover boy. Disgusting.
And now I can finally see why you write “M$” instead of “Microsoft”. It takes up too much space on your messy bookmark bar!
It’s a small wonder you get anything done with that messy desktop of yours. Disorganized like your posts.
The TMRepository is the latest headquarters of one of M$’s specialized anti-freedom propeganda teams after we drove them from the linux haters blog. I am rallying some of those same trolls who helped us destroy the linux haters blog to assist us in our effort. I encourage all persons who value their freedom to create accounts on the TMRepository and help fight to preserve our freedom.
@ldman wrote:
“Why should I care what Mr. Gates said?”
It doesn’t matter if you care or not that Bill Gates said: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
“Bill Gates did say: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.”
Bill Gates Quoting Josef Goebbels did say: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
Is that better Mr. K?
“I’m not denying that Joseph Goebbels said it too”
Presumably you also know that Goebbels also said it FIRST and did so over 30 years before Mr. Gates.
BTW – Why should I care what Mr. Gates said? The software that runs on his OS’s allow me to be productive on MY terms, not yours.
Migrating from GTK+ 2.x to GTK+ 3:
GTK+ 3 is a major new version of GTK+ that breaks both API and ABI compared to GTK+ 2.x
ABI compatibility?
API compatibility?
oiaohm, so who is an idiot now?
TM Repository my Geforce 6 PCI-E that will work in new motherboards will not have proper drivers for Windows 8.
Your GeeGolly 6 pci-express won’t have a driver after this round of linux distribution releases, either, Pete. Turns out nVidia has dropped support for the 6000 and 7000 cards.
There is a stack of ATI/AMD PCI-E cards that will not work with Windows 8 as well.
That same stack of video cards also isn’t supported by the manufacturer in linux leaving you with 25-60 percent performance from an open driver with varying degrees of video tearing, poor performance in hardware accelerated OpenGL, stuttered scrolling in any app that requires vertical scrolling, visual artifacts from shaders that expect the card to support GL extensions that simply aren’t supported, and a genuine nasty taste in your mouth from the outright lies you have to tell others to claim they are still supported in linux.
But desktop linux is perfect, right?
ch wrote, ““If I can run a rich desktopâ€
Your articles so far indicate that you don’t.”
Here’s what I am doing today. There’s a lot going on and a bunch of applications running plus I am networked all over the house to other PCs for various purposes including audio, video and still pictures. What more do you want me to do with my PCs?
TM Repository wrote:
““You and your Microsoft loving friends are always trying to revise Microsoft’s history.â€
We don’t love Microsoft, …”
No you don’t you squirmy bastard. The subject of that sentence is not “if you love Microsoft” but that you and your Microsoft loving friends *revise Microsoft’s history*!
““As Bill Gates himself once said, If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?â€
Bill gates didn’t say that, it was Joseph Goebbels. Way to prove Godwin’s Law with a nazi reference, troll.”
Oh no TM, you’re very wrong. Bill Gates did say that. Bill Gates did say: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
I’m not denying that Joseph Goebbels said it too, but Bill Gates did say: If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
TM Repository wrote some more:
“What worked on Debian fails on Ubuntu, what worked on Arch fails on Suse, etc.”
Yet you profess that malware written for Java on Android magically affects all of the GNU/Linux genotype.
TM Repository is a piece of work.
“The compliance checking tools developed for Linux Standard Base were ported to windows because it has been found required.”
Why would a tool checking for LSB compliance be needed on Windows? Could you please elaborate on that?
“37639 packages listed, 2127 installed, 0 brokenâ€
Of course, of those packages ~90% are parts of the OS, libraries, frameworks or abstraction layers and other plumbing, ~9% are small tools that may or may not be useful – depending on if you need to regularly convert files from format A to format B, for example – and maybe 1% are actual applications, each and any of them having at least one CS counterpart that is more powerful and/or easier to use.
“If I can run a rich desktop”
Your articles so far indicate that you don’t.
“The package maintainers do the work of fixing dependencies and Debian manages the whole of IT with just ~1K developers doing the tweaking.”
So taking the existing bits of source code from upstream and turning it into an actual OS with applications that actually work on it takes hundreds of developers – doesn’t that strike you as less than effective?
For Windows, you write an application, following guidelines mostly published a long time ago. Result: Will mostly likely run on all Windows versions in the next umpteen years, just like my 20-year-old Win16 games still run on the 32bit version of Win8.
TM Repository binaries built in the year 2000 for the first version of Linux Standard Base still work today perfectly.
http://test.winehq.org/data/ The windows ABI is not stable either and the test suite to prove it exists TM Repository.
“It also doesn’t change the fact that an application binary compiled now may not function 6 months from now as the ABI change so frequently. Meanwhile, most 15 year old binaries run just fine on newer versions of Windows.”
This is bogus and so are so much if idiot that you don’t know it. TM Repository. Next windows update you program might not function under Windows and this is the simple reality.
Problem here I am sitting on the evidence both ways. I went out and found the evidence on how much Windows and Linux ABI changes. The answer is a shocking one. The Windows ABI is less stable than the Linux User-space ABIs in the standards.
Even under Windows to maintain portability you have to avoid using particular functions.
Brains is required.
TM Repository
“Worse still, it doesn’t solve any fragmentation issues between distros since everything in different places on the file system and, surprise surprise, the APIs for querying those locations differs between distros.”
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/
Reality another lot of mostly made up garbage. All common distributions follow fhs. So stuff is not random.
API for querying those locations are defines in the Linux Standard Base so don’t differ between distributions at all.
TM Repository basically the Linux world in the year 2000 hear your problems and went forwards and wrote and follow formal standards.
oldman
–You are saying in effect: my way or the highway
Commercial Desktop Developers are saying:
No problem! See you later!–
No the issue is you have idiots TM Repository saying stuff that have no base in reality so making out that making a cross distribution binary is impossible. That ceased to be the case in the year 2000.
Due to idiots a eco system has not been able to develop.
TM Repository
–This is a band-aid solution that shouldn’t be necessary if the ABI was stable! I don’t need an ABI compatibility checkers on Windows or OSX.–
This is because you are going on faith not reality.
The compliance checking tools developed for Linux Standard Base were ported to windows because it has been found required.
Call it a band-aid solution just shows how much of a head in sand person you are.
TM wrote, “it’s a huge pain to develop applications for Linux because it’s such a massive moving target. It’s severely fragmented, churns constantly, there’s no testing framework, and distro compatibility is a guessing game. What worked on Debian fails on Ubuntu, what worked on Arch fails on Suse, etc.”
Hmmm…
Synaptic: “37639 packages listed, 2127 installed, 0 broken”
If I can run a rich desktop with less than 1/10th of what Debian routinely ports to their distro, it must not be so that it’s a huge pain what works on X fails on Y etc. The package maintainers do the work of fixing dependencies and Debian manages the whole of IT with just ~1K developers doing the tweaking. It’s not a problem for OEMs, application developers, end users, system admins, nor anyone but TM. I call FUD!
oldman wrote of GNU/Linux, “On the desktop, there simply IS no revenue stream that can make up for putting up with the hassles.”
Tell that to all the developers who code FLOSS for a living. The world needs software and can make its own and share. Paying developers to write FLOSS costs less than buying software licences. M$’s huge profits come from charging excessive amounts for licences. M$ has cash on hand of ~$60billion and operating income of $22billion. The world can provide it’s own OS for just a few $billion instead. Don’t think M$’s programmers get the money M$ rakes in. Their salaries are just a few $billion. Why should the world pay to support M$’s luxuries when buying PCs? The world can have software without paying salesmen, “partners” and astroturfers.
“Just another so called developer who fears open source
is going to take away his livelihood.”
How do I fear open source? I use it every day! My site is built entirely with it and it even has a “powered by Django” logo at the bottom. I’ve got several open source projects of my own and contribute to several others.
I’ve never once said I think open source is going to take away my livelihood, but certainly armchair advocates of open source want to. It seems the less code they actually contribute to open source, the louder and more likely they are to condemn developers for not wanting to give away their hard work for free.
Perhaps if these self-proclaimed evangelists actually tried to maintain a project or two, they’d realize that it isn’t the source that costs money, it’s the time, effort and expertise of the developer that costs.
“Like you hear people complain about lack of ABI on Linux. Most people don’t know a compliance tool exists to prevent it. Now of course you could go after libraries you program depends on to support this upstream.”
This is a band-aid solution that shouldn’t be necessary if the ABI was stable! I don’t need an ABI compatibility checkers on Windows or OSX.
It also doesn’t change the fact that an application binary compiled now may not function 6 months from now as the ABI change so frequently. Meanwhile, most 15 year old binaries run just fine on newer versions of Windows.
Worse still, it doesn’t solve any fragmentation issues between distros since everything in different places on the file system and, surprise surprise, the APIs for querying those locations differs between distros.
I don’t love Microsoft, I don’t love Windows, what I love is a stable API and ABI to develop against!
“There was a reason why I stayed away from user space ABI issues on Linux. Reality they are not random. Linux core stable libraries are larger than the OS X core libraries. Just the problem is a Linux Distribution installs with Libraries extra to that. So developers have to use some brains and not use those.”
But you forget, the developers also have the right to just not play the game! Remember they have a software ecosystem and market with a proven revenue stream. they dont have to do any of the things that you say they have to.
And that choice shows. WHere the developer is working with programs that were structured for the old style unix environments, the development and maintenance are relatively straightforward and being that the market is mostly for business, the hassles are known and the revenue streams are set.
On the desktop, there simply IS no revenue stream that can make up for putting up with the hassles.
Simply put Hamster.
You are saying in effect: my way or the highway
Commercial Desktop Developers are saying:
No problem! See you later!
iLia
–You know Mac users have money and are ready to spend it, and if you want this money you will update your software every time Apple breaks ABI.–
Really there has not been a single OS X update that has not broken the ABI somewhere forcing some applications to be updated. About time you stop being a idiot and see the reality. ABI’s get broken all the time OS X is not some magical different beast.
The reality is the Linux core libraries ABI is checked regularly.
OS X user a real one should have some first and experience of applications failing after update. Then having to get update to that application so it works again.
There was a reason why I stayed away from user space ABI issues on Linux. Reality they are not random. Linux core stable libraries are larger than the OS X core libraries. Just the problem is a Linux Distribution installs with Libraries extra to that. So developers have to use some brains and not use those.
TM Repository
http://ispras.linuxbase.org/index.php/ABI_compliance_checker
Like you hear people complain about lack of ABI on Linux. Most people don’t know a compliance tool exists to prevent it. Now of course you could go after libraries you program depends on to support this upstream.
Even better you can ship with this tool to check if the libraries in the distribution are compatible with your application.
All the stable core libraries use it.
TM Repository the reality you don’t know the topic. So are a chick little screaming the sky is falling and wondering why no one is paying you any attention.
http://upstream-tracker.org/
Also this is completely not even a possible dream to people at TM Repository that a lot of FOSS libraries are monitored for any change that could be a sign of a ABI breakage.
PCs are shipping for $250 with that other OS and M$ is taking ~$50, 20%
Hey, mr.Pogson, I found some real criminals, even worse than Microsoft: Serenity Systems and Mensys BV.
This nasty people dare to charge poor students $149 and poor businesses $259 for their proprietary eComStation OS
TM repository is the home of Trolls
So why were you such a stupid idiot suggesting that binary ABI was the only way forwards you have first hand experience with virtualisation solution.
No it is mrpogson.com the home of Trolls. How much times you called me an idiot? And how much times I called you an idiot or something like this?
It seams to me that you, my dear oiaohm, is just an angry and sad man, for some reason you cannot assert yourself, the things you believe in are nothing but some dusty crap, so you spilling your dissatisfaction wherever you can. Offending people who due to the on-line nature of our discussion cannot teach you some good manners by kicking your ass it is not that brave.
And why binary compatibility is not that important for Macs? You know Mac users have money and are ready to spend it, and if you want this money you will update your software every time Apple breaks ABI.
With linuxoids and FLOSSies it is absolutely different:
— price, you can’t beat $0
— Sharing is good! It’s the right way to do IT. The world can make its own software and share it, minimizing the cost and maximizing the performance of IT.
as mr.Pogson put it.
TM Repository
–So instead, it’s a huge pain to develop applications for Linux because it’s such a massive moving target. It’s severely fragmented, churns constantly, there’s no testing framework, and distro compatibility is a guessing game. What worked on Debian fails on Ubuntu, what worked on Arch fails on Suse, etc.–
Reality bogus statements. Lets rip this apart.
1) No testing frameworks.
http://linuxtesting.org/tests_frameworks
What are these something that by TM Repository idiots don’t exist.
2) distro compatibility
https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/en/LSB
This is a ISO standard of all things. It also provides the loader to allow your program to load .so files only for it without altering the distribution.
So yes there are a list of Stable ABI’s you can expect to work on all distributions and testing frameworks to confirm they work.
If you have having the case of what Works on Debian fails on Ubuntu, Arch or SUSE. You are not using the cross distribution ABI’s so its your own stupid fault that you are having a guessing game problem.
Basically another myth from the TM Repository.
If you have some application where the developer is idiot it is possible to chroot your way out of the problem bedrock Linux is looking to exploit this.
The reason why I see items like bedrock as solution is there are too many stupid developers who will not obey what is the core standard so use libraries that are not in the core standard then complain when the program is not cross distribution.
Basically you are asking for something that has been done to death TM Repository so now the FOSS world has moved on to go after solutions that are idiot proof.
3) It’s severely fragmented, churns constantly
This is also bogus. There are a lot of libaries. Lot that are not core that churn constantly. The core libraries are not either.
Simply this proves you don’t know Linux. So are just spreading made up myths.
TM Repository
–It’s more likely that the hardware will become incompatible (no more AGP or PCI-X slots on newer motherboards, for example) before the driver support does.–
TM Repository my Geforce 6 PCI-E that will work in new motherboards will not have proper drivers for Windows 8. So your statement is bogus. There is a stack of ATI/AMD PCI-E cards that will not work with Windows 8 as well. Reality this is nothing todo with the hardware being incompatible with hardware its a pure software problem no drivers. There were some webcams and other things that did not get vista drivers from XP that still work with Linux since they are connected by USB.
TM Repository this has been going on for along time. This is why binary kernel drivers are not exactly a perfectly correct road forwards.
@ TM Repository
Just another so called developer who fears open source
is going to take away his livelihood.
“So is Linux. Problem is the solution to lots of the issues are down a different path to what you TM guys see.”
Most of us developer types would certainly like to see a stable API/ABI. But you’re probably right, that’s a “different path” than what we’re thinking.
So instead, it’s a huge pain to develop applications for Linux because it’s such a massive moving target. It’s severely fragmented, churns constantly, there’s no testing framework, and distro compatibility is a guessing game. What worked on Debian fails on Ubuntu, what worked on Arch fails on Suse, etc.
The only Linux platform I’ve had any success developing for is Android but that too is becoming so fragmented it’s getting difficult to manage. Once again, it’s becoming a guessing game as to which devices your Android app will run on in the wild.
I’m sure Pog would just say “target Debian only”.
“TM Repository even recently I see Windows Red screen of death due to driver quality issues. The problem has not gone away.”
Sure you have. A red screen happens when something catastrophic happens like the the boot manager is damaged, not driver issues.
“People having to replace working hardware from the time of XP because there are no drivers is still happening.”
Such as? I provided links to compatibility lists several times. There are general purpose drivers built into Windows, vendor drivers and even community built drivers. It’s more likely that the hardware will become incompatible (no more AGP or PCI-X slots on newer motherboards, for example) before the driver support does.
iLia –Linux is ready for desktop.–
Real world usage says its ready for particular desktops now. Including like most of Google staff.
The thing is it night not be everyone desktop.
iLia
–I will buy a Mac. Regardless its price.–
Ok so you lived threw OS 9 support on OS X. So why were you such a stupid idiot suggesting that binary ABI was the only way forwards you have first hand experience with virtualisation solution.
The other solution works. Ok not the best on OS X with OS 9 due to lack of virtualisation instructions.
Really I some how suspect iLia is not a Mac user stupidity from iLia does not match up with what a Mac user should know.
Windows 9 this will become more in your face and you might wake up how much you are being stupid idiots over things.
I will buy a Mac. Regardless its price.
“As Bill Gates himself once said, If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?â€
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
Linux is ready for desktop.
PCs are shipping for $250 with that other OS and M$ is taking ~$50, 20%
~$50 once every 3 or 4 years? Do you call it “ripping off”? $16 a year?
If you wanna some good examples of “ripping off” read this article — $83,046 For A 3 Hour Hospital Visit – Why Are Hospital Bills So Outrageous?.
And I personally know what “ripping off” means. In the 90’s my father ran a small business, he made some meat products, he hired some people, was giving them work, he bought meat from villagers, coocked it and sold it in the big city where we lived, everybody was happy. And, you know, it was good products, all our family ate it, there was no special products for our family and for sale, they were absolutely the same, but one day the mafia came in and the business gone. That is ripping off.
Or have you been robbed? I was, once. During this accident I was beaten and lost in money and stolen possessions more than a copy of Windows costs.
The most striking thing about Microsoft is that they do not abuse their dominant market position. Compare the prices of Apple stuff and Microsoft’s. And quality of Microsoft products is quite hight. Windows 7 is more than decent operation system. MS Office is really good, and there are a lot of Microsoft products, that actually have some strong competitors, but sell quite well.
And history? IBM, SUN, HP and other big companies wasn’t that innocent either. Unix wars, do you remember? Every company tried to make its Unix as incompatible as possible. Microsoft OS domination comes from IBM aggressive promotion of its IBM PC, and not solely from MS politics.
So all this your “ripping off” whining is just ridiculous.
TM Repository even recently I see Windows Red screen of death due to driver quality issues. The problem has not gone away.
People having to replace working hardware from the time of XP because there are no drivers is still happening. The same will happen with the change from Windows 7 to Windows 8 again.
TM Repository
–“As Bill Gates himself once said, If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?â€
Bill gates didn’t say that, it was Joseph Goebbels. Way to prove Godwin’s Law with a nazi reference, troll.–
Its in the anti-trust emails Bill gates did quote Joseph Goebbels to marketing staff of Microsoft when talking about Fear Uncertainty Doubt methods. So this case you are a troll who has not done homework. The next lines of that email include a clear warning not to since if its too far of a lie you look like a compete twit. So the correct claim here is using words out of context not that Bill Gates never said them.
Linux is going into a interesting state of flux.
–CURRENT STATE OF LINUX and the issues we see.–
You really don’t talk about these things. You spend too much time being insulting. Current state of things is why people who read TM get hammered over the ideas of Binary ABI in kernel space.
TM fails to cover the for and against an idea.
The big against binary ABI’s is the fact you have to draw lines in sand to deal with security issues.
Same with static API’s.
So you need a system that can cope with changing ABI and changing API’s.
Even MS is being forced to breaking ABI more often.
The future is not a long term stable abi like MS has had. Since this is wrong. The future will be the means to virtualise simply so you can run legacy programs. Windows 8 is designed to get users use to this. So that old applications will be run in a virtualised space and new applications will use the new ABI space.
Since this is the future you don’t want a 10 years stable ABI any more. Instead you want the means to run the 10 different ABI’s that possible happened over that 10 years for user space.
There are a few things you should be focusing on and you are not.
–Meanwhile, Apple and Microsoft have since moved on and been steadily fixing their issues.–
So is Linux. Problem is the solution to lots of the issues are down a different path to what you TM guys see. Windows 9 this will become more in your face and you might wake up how much you are being stupid idiots over things.
“TM Repository does not help either. Being a bigot does not bring progress.”
TM Repository is meant to PROMOTE progress. It eliminates the deniability that apologists use to sweep Linux and FOSS issues under the carpet. It would be like denying that a tumour you have doesn’t exist, even though it’s plain to see. If you could just admit it’s a problem, you can go to the doctor and start dealing with it, but ignoring it won’t magically make it any better.
The Django project is good about this. Every year at DjangoCon they have a “why I hate django” talk. It lets the public know what the real issues are and it lets the core dev team know where they should probably focus.
Here’s the original one from 2008 which I was in the audience for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Fr65PFqfk
And another:
http://blip.tv/djangocon/why-django-sucks-and-how-we-can-fix-it-4131303
And another about database issues in Django:
http://lanyrd.com/2012/djangocon-europe/srprp/#link-kzmt
They don’t lie to themselves that everything is perfect.
“Robert, stuck in the past? No, no TM. Microsoft comes up with new digressions every day. There’s no need to dig into the past unless it’s to set one of you straight.”
No, I’m talking about things that were worthy of complaint nearly 20 years ago but have since been fixed. His “blue screen, re-re-reboot, malware” diatribe based on his experience with Windows 98, for example. Meanwhile, any complains made about Linux are made based on the CURRENT state of things, not how they were in 1998!
“You and your Microsoft loving friends are always trying to revise Microsoft’s history.”
We don’t love Microsoft, we happen to use a handful of their products; There’s a big difference. We also use Apple products, Google products, Adobe products, etc. but we don’t have any emotional investment in them. They’re tools and we are pragmatic enough to pick the best ones for the job since we don’t have any emotional investment in any of them. Do you think I’ll shed a tear if IE drops off the face of the earth? Hell no, I use Chrome. If Chrome starts to suck, do you think I’ll cling to it and defend it? Hell no.
And once again, we generally only make remarks about the CURRENT STATE OF LINUX and the issues we see. You, Pogson and the rest of your ilk feel threatened because admitting these issues exist is somehow admitting weakness. The problem we have is when you goofballs defend the weaknesses by using outdated crap like “windows has bluescreens”. Meanwhile, Apple and Microsoft have since moved on and been steadily fixing their issues, so much so that I went from laughing at macbooks to owning one now in tandem with my Windows desktop. Do you think a “microsoft fanboy”, as rare as they are, would do something like that? Would a Microsoft shill be writing software for the the iPhone and Android or building sites using Python?
Keep trying to pigeonhole me, though. The only people you’re convincing are yourselves.
“As Bill Gates himself once said, If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.?”
Bill gates didn’t say that, it was Joseph Goebbels. Way to prove Godwin’s Law with a nazi reference, troll.
TM Repository does not help either.
Being a bigot does not bring progress.
–Most of us use linux in some capacity and want to see it improved. But if the loudest voices of the community are the ones always spinning negatives into positives, than nothing is going to change or get better.–
The problem here is what is a negative to one is a positive to another group. So its not spinning its understanding different groups points of view and not trying to crush them.
Its like background tasks being faster on most linux Distrobutions than Windows and Foreground being slower due to because of this. This suits particular users. What you want is distribution that can be configured better to suit style of user. Now the users who like background tasks faster should not be hurt either.
The problem is that in this case you would come out saying Linux slow active application is the problem fail to see that the other way suits a different group of users so the change you want hurt them. So they fight back because you have not considered their point of view in what you are requesting.
The part of the middle ground is hard.
Spinning negatives into positives. Is mostly because you are a bigot and cannot see their point of view. So you cannot say this is good for this group of uses but suxs for us.
TM Repository
–I’ve said it numerous times, the TM Repository isn’t about hate, it’s about halting misinformation spouted from desperate evangelists.–
If this is true you should be hunting down MS Trolls as well because they spread lots and lots of misinformation as well. Yet you target just 1 group.
Lot of what is TM at the TM Repository is evangelist quotes with zero understanding.
Targeting what you call freetards now means you have MStards come in and use the TM Repository to spread their miss information. This is not progress. Creating a home for another group of trolls does not help progress at all.
In fact one of the first signs you have been invaded by evangelists is when you start seeing them inventing insulting terms to describe the other side. Just go through the TM’s and notice how many are not about a issue but are about attacking a person.
A lot of the TM’s have nothing todo with disproving false just a means to attack. Most TM’s lacking the data to back up there claims. So you might as say that TM repository is the home of Trolls. If TM Repository was serous about stopping lies it would be mandatory for every TM to have the backing data why the particular point is false.
Like you know you don’t have quality people at TM reposistory.
DR Loser
–Or you could just revert the change to using kmalloc. I mean, spin-locks are so cheap, aren’t they?–
Classic. Spin-locks are expensive once systems get past a particular size. http://www.lameter.com/gelato2005.pdf 2005 paper. Up to 8 cores spin-locks are workable past 8 cores you want to avoid using them. Even under 8 there are issues with spin-locks.
Really if the TM Repository wants todo some good they either need to shut up shop or really get serous about only have TM and FUD calls backed by proper fact and proper understanding. Not being used as a weapon with no fact base to statements.
So times it requires admitting why something is an advantage.
Most likely if you deleted the TM that are just fuds or a means to insult a person the TM list would most likely cut in half if not less.
TM wrote, “you have a malicious agenda to “kill Microsoft†because you feel they somehow wronged you.”
I am powerless to kill M$. We all know that. I just shine a little light on my corner of their walled garden.
M$ did not only wrong me but many millions of users. The courts seem to forget that and just consider the harm done to other businesses. That is very short sighted, allowing the drug dealer to operate on the parking lot of the high school.
Nathan Myhrvold of M$ wrote in 1993, “MS Dos is by far the most popular operating system in the world, with more than 120 million users. Computer manufacturers license MS Dos for price which generally works out to be about 1% of the price of the system, and do so without discrimination. This is an incredibly small price compared to the value that it brings to the customer. In a typical PC it is by far the cheapest major “component” – the CPU chip, memory chips, monitor, power-supply and even the sheet metal case all cost the manufacturer more.”
Compare that to the situation M$ has cultivated. PCs are shipping for $250 with that other OS and M$ is taking ~$50, 20%. So, the consumer is being ripped off. Imagine the consumer who pays for the “premium”/less-crippled versions…
TM Repository wrote:
“You’re stuck in the past and refuse to consider new information unless it supports your cause.”
What, like Microsoft threatening another company with litigation over its phony patents(FAT)? What’s wrong with considering new facts that support a cause? Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? I mean, you wouldn’t consider facts that had nothing to do with your cause now would you TM.
Robert, stuck in the past? No, no TM. Microsoft comes up with new digressions every day. There’s no need to dig into the past unless it’s to set one of you straight. You and your Microsoft loving friends are always trying to revise Microsoft’s history. As Bill Gates himself once said, If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.
“Hmmm… I guess freedom-loving people win over bigots.”
Hah, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You’re the biggest bigot on this site! You’re like a software racist!
You use name calling like “M$” and “the Other OS”.
You’re stuck in the past and refuse to consider new information unless it supports your cause. You refuse to consider any opinions but your own. You ostracize people who’s ideas don’t align with your’s. And you have a malicious agenda to “kill Microsoft” because you feel they somehow wronged you. Not to mention you’re so emotionally driven that you couldn’t possibly admit to being wrong to anything because that would be a sign of weakness to you.
“Could it be that real people love Free Software, GNU/Linux and small cheap computers?”
Could it be that conservative blow hards get more attention? Fox news seems to agree, so does Rush Limbaugh. Both are more popular than their liberal counterparts.
But I digress, because you seem obsessed with sizing yourself up with what you believe is your “competition”. I didn’t build the TM Repository to destroy anything; It’s just there to shut idiots like you up long enough for someone to listen to actual users relate their issues with Linux without you acting as the Fox news filter all the time.
I’d like to reiterate that using something and loving something are two different things. Pay attention, Pogson.
Just because I use Windows and OSX doesn’t mean I love Microsoft or Apple or give a damn about what their company is doing. Just because I use certain open source technology doesn’t mean I love open source and think everything should be open sourced either.
See, this is pragmatism. I get to use the best tools for the job. I’m not limited by any particular philosophy and I’m not burdened by some emotional investment. I’m able to use whatever the hell I want to maximize my productivity.
“I guess after two years, they are discovering that hate does not sell.”
I’ve said it numerous times, the TM Repository isn’t about hate, it’s about halting misinformation spouted from desperate evangelists.
Most of us use linux in some capacity and want to see it improved. But if the loudest voices of the community are the ones always spinning negatives into positives, than nothing is going to change or get better.
I built the site using open source technologies because, get this, I use them. Secondly, it’s one less cheap shot zealots like yourself can take. Had it been made in ASP.NET you’d have a paragraph claiming how I was a Microsoft shill or something.
Yes TM Repository runs on Linux, everyone’s known that since day one, Blogger (which hosts the Linux Haters’ Blog) also runs on Linux.
But TM Repository basically gets DDOSed when more than two visitors attempt to visit it, while Blogger is plagued by all sorts of ridiculous problems (LHB even caused Blogger to crash when we wrote too many comments) and Google seem unable to fix it.
So, please tell us, how is this a victory for Linux?
Now be fair, Linux is more popular than herpes.
No one cares about Linux anymore
Forgot this:
http://tmrepository.com/trademarks/tmrepositoryrunsonlinux/
Rob is late to the party. As always. And thinks he’s uncovered a scandal. Chuckle.
Newsflash, Rob: TM Repository ran on Linux since day one. And this was never hidden from anyone.
You couldn’t understand, Rob, as you’re unable to get it into your head that Linux Haters don’t hate for hate’s sake like you do.
What, no tiny islands in the South Pacific moving to Debian? No towns in Eastern Europe using LiarOffice?
It seams to me that I am not the only one who reads before visiting Mr.Pogson to get more fun.
I guess after two years, they are discovering that hate does not sell.
I guess that someone who runs GNU/Linux should have noticed that GNU/Linux does not sell either.
But if you wanna the reason why tmrepository is not that popular I can give you one: most people who do not use Linux, even if they know about its existence, are not anti-Linux fanatics, and do not want to spend their only life to read just another one confirmation that LinuxSax. It is usually enough to read tmrepository for a week to understand why Linux market share is at best ~1.5%
So why am I here?
You know mr.Pogson in Siberia it is not very easy to find a foreigner to practise some clumsy English on for free 🙂
What, no tiny islands in the South Pacific moving to Debian? No towns in Eastern Europe using LiarOffice?
Cue Mr. Pogson, completely missing the point, as always.