PC OEMs in Revolt Against M$

“HP has already decided to halt development of Windows RT tablet PCs, while Dell reportedly may also back away from the segment, according to sources from the upstream supply chain.”

via Digitimes – Microsoft fails to pacify PC vendors about Surface tablets.

There you have it. M$ is messing with OEMs and they are fighting back. “Technological Evangelism” fails when M$ threatens OEMs with vertically-integrated and unfair competition. M$ is not going to tack on $100 to the price of “Surface” to please OEMs. OEMs are refusing to build the things.

I have a suggestion. If OEMs really want to get M$’s attention, all they have to do is stop shipping that other OS and ship Debian GNU/Linux instead. The whole Wintel house of cards would fall flat within a few months. M$ would never again be in a position to order OEMs to do what was not in their best interests. That would be revolutionary but a good revolt is a good start. Enjoy.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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28 Responses to PC OEMs in Revolt Against M$

  1. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr can you run Ubuntu with Pulseaudio removed if you have some application that does not like it. Yes you can.

    PulseAudio seams bad until you wake up they did way 6 other totally incompatible sound servers that were desktop environment sensitive when they introduced Pulseaudio. Artsd from KDE 3.5 and esound from Gnome of the time. Now that was a true prick. Load a KDE application it wants artsd load Gnome app it wanted esound and neither would play with each other since both nicked the audio interfaces and did not give it back.

    Lot of breaks in Linux are truly improvements cleaning out the crud. After Pulseaudio artsd and esound basically died.

    kurkosdr
    “And yeah, the dudes behind most distros distros DID intentionally break their systems with PulseAudio, but being neckbeards, it didn’t bother them much.”

    Basically how do you break something that basically does not work anyhow due to massive conflict problems.

    The I got too many sound server problem existed before Linux was born.

    Even Pulseaudio idea in my eyes is flawed.

    Should point something out critical kurkosdr visit Linux Standard Base some time and notice most of the stuff that broke could not operate with generic ALSA. Not using a stable ABI. There are stable ABI’s on Linux.

    There are ABI’s formally stable. At times the people you call neckbeards don’t care for 1 reason kurkosdr the ABI in particular areas is unstable know to be so. Portable applications should not depend on unstable parts. So all effected applications should be shipped by the distribution. Third parties should not use these libraries.

    Guess what Third Parties break rules then cry about the fall out.

    Same with close source drivers. Linux developers could forbid it tell closed source developers only to use particular API. There are some ABI under Linux kernel that don’t have the linking allowance closed source drivers don’t touch those.

    The broken kernel space between kernels does limit attack vectors.

    Ted Munich migration has a perception problem when you look at the figures it has been all positive. But you have 1000~ of trolls who spread that Munich was costing too much. The myth will fade way. Problem is the myth always remains for a fair while.

    I normally use the French police example you don’t have confused people around that one.

  2. JR says:

    @ Clarence Moon

    Another perspective on tablets:

    http://betanews.com/2011/02/21/ipad-is-not-a-pc/

  3. JR says:

    @ Clarence Moon

    My humble apologies I must have missed that prediction but as far as I can understand, this post if I read it correctly, is about tablets.

    In fact if you read the article on that site they talk of windows RT tablet PC’s which as far as I know are powered by an ARM based cpu.

    http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20120830PD211.html

    Perhaps I am confusing the definition.

    Maybe of interest:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablet_computer
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablet_PC

    Anyway again my humble apologies if I was off topic.

  4. ch says:

    “honestly I really did not know that the Linux developers intentionally broke their system just to piss off their users, especially you.”

    It seems some devs actually like to break CS/binary stuff out of principle. Others just don’t give a shit:
    http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4980

    And sometimes things are just plain messy:
    http://lwn.net/Articles/299093/

    No, they are not actually after users – it’s just that the result of what they do all too often pisses users of.

  5. As far as I know MS will be selling it’s Windows RT version of the surface tablet running an Nvida Tegra 3 chip which is based on the ARM architecture, not to mention that other company you are so fond of.

    The Surface product is a tablet, not a PC. Mr. Pogson’s prediction was for PCs with ARM processors running “Gnu/Linux”. Get a better understanding of the topic before you chime in!

  6. dougman says:

    Debian is solid as rocks, Ubuntu is derived from it and of which Mint derives from Ubuntu.

    kurkosdr, why are you screaming and hating your coursework? I visited your site and could not find any reference of Debian or Linux, just Sun and PCs.

    The Grad and Undergrad coursework looks well balanced for a CS degree.

    Also, as Greece is nearing bankruptcy, I doubt they could afford M$ expensive software anyways.

  7. JR says:

    @ kurkosdr

    Tell me are you doing computer science for your degree or are just doing a course in computer literacy?

    For what it is worth I am genuinely interested.

  8. kozmcrae says:

    kurkosdr wrote:

    “…but being neckbeards, it didn’t bother them much.”

    Ah yes, the neck beards. Where would we be without them?: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/Microsoft/Microsoft.early_group_photograph.102618837.lg.jpg

    Please note, the scrawny guy on the lower left, being short on testosterone, couldn’t grow one.

  9. kurkosdr says:

    And yeah, the dudes behind most distros distros DID intentionally break their systems with PulseAudio, but being neckbeards, it didn’t bother them much. “Look at me I have the latest bleeding edge code, nothing works but I have the latest bleeding edge code!”.

  10. kurkosdr says:

    “In fact if you hate linux so much why not just move on and get on with your life I am sure you will be a lot happier. ”

    The university I am in (cs.uoi.gr) forces me to use Debian in the lab computers. I hate it and I must scream…

  11. JR wrote, “if you hate linux so much why not just move on and get on with your life I am sure you will be a lot happier.”

    Amen. I got on with my life when I realized I could live without that other OS. I was a lot happier to have fewer concerns about reliability of IT.

  12. JR says:

    @ kurkosdr

    I am afraid your post is way above my head and I do not have a clue what you are going on about.

    You talk about love and hate and indifference and quite honestly I really did not know that the Linux developers intentionally broke their system just to piss off their users, especially you.

    You obviously have inside information that nobody else has but just remember Ubuntu is not linux it is merely a distribution which uses linux.

    If you happen to look around a bit you will see there are a few other distros out there, but of course seeing that you hate it so much I won’t suggest you try one of them.

    In fact if you hate linux so much why not just move on and get on with your life I am sure you will be a lot happier.

    You know no-one is forcing you to use it don’t you ?

  13. Ted says:

    “There are many organizations that despise that other OS but see Munich as proof of their fears that it will be too costly/difficult to switch.”

    But you and those like you tell us repeatedly that Munich is the on-budget, on-schedule and on-time, well-planned and much lauded flawless mass migration to Linux, where Windows is now only a memory, and user satisfaction is higher!

    But now Munich is the horror story that’s keeping other organizations away from Linux?

    Which is it?

  14. kozmcrae says:

    kurkosdr wrote:

    “What happens when you plug it into the internet? Oh yeah, Windows Update will automatically download all the latest updates for you, without breaking ABI or API compatibility.”

    Ha, ha, ha, ha!

    “But it seems you beloved java had such thing yesterday.”

    My beloved java? Not on your life. The sooner the World moves on from java the better. It’s not a whole lot better than ActiveX. Alan Kay, you know who he is right, thinks java is a piece of she it.

  15. kurkosdr says:

    Linux’s breaks = Linux breaks

  16. kurkosdr says:

    @JR
    “You don’t get out much do you.?
    Here is some reading for you in case you missed it.”

    The difference is that the things you mentioned are considered as unintentional bugs within MS and are treated as such. Instead, Linux breaks things on purpose everytime the X.org guys intentionally break backwards compatibility with existing apps or graphics cards. Also, Canonical knew that bundling PulseAudio would break a lot of things, and yet they bundled it. These are not unintetional “stuck at endless reboot” bugs, this is intentionally introducing changes you know they will break the user’s existings programs (and computer).
    Microsoft released a fix for the endless reboot days after. Canonical’s response to the PulseAudio mess (broken apps and upgrades)? This is the way it’s supposed to be!
    Long story short, Microsoft keeps the API and ABI stable for at least 6 years (3.1 -> 98SE, 2000->XP, Vista->8), and everything that makes old apps and devices not work within that time frame is a bug and either corrected or handled by using multiple versions of the library. Linux’s breaks ABI and API breakages and doesn’t care.

    You must know that the opposite of love is not hate, the opposite to love is indifference. Hate is betrayed love. I tried to like Ubuntu, but ended up hating it. Give me a written warranty that I can upgrade things without stuff breaking or at least if things do break that Canonical will release a fix shorty after, and I will be happily use Ubuntu for most of my tasks. I even like Unity. But hate the X.org and PulseAudio underneath.
    I also hate the Linux kernel. Either ban closed source drivers, or stop breaking the ABI. The Linux kernel folks can’t seem to decide if they want evil closed source drivers in their kernel. Same applies for Desktop Linux in general. It can’t seem to decide if it wants to be an experimental OS for free software believers or an OS for everyday use with stable ABIs and APIs for the rest of us.

  17. Yes, it’s a myth that “7” is a superior OS. It mostly is debugged Vista which was a loser from the start. An apple (the fruit) does not fall far from the tree and M$ is a tree which has produced Lose ‘9x, Vista, and now “8”. There are real problems in the goals and methods of operation of the company that produces so many crappy products. For those who think Lose ’95 was wonderful, it was the sole reason I switched to GNU/Linux and I’m thankful I did not get more locked in to that other OS than I did. It saddens me to see many others have taken more laps on the Wintel treadmill, getting nowhere in terms of progress except in a deeper hole. There are many organizations that despise that other OS but see Munich as proof of their fears that it will be too costly/difficult to switch. In fact, GNU/Linux is a superior OS and most of that fear is misplaced. People should fear continuing with M$ more than switching.

    I have helped many individuals and organizations switch. There were no show-stopping problems and real problems were easily soluble. I think there is an inverse correlation between how much one uses GNU/Linux and how much effort it takes to solve a problem. I remember RTFM in the beginning. Now real problems may be solved in seconds. With that other OS, there are so many problems that only M$ can solve because they close their source code. No choice = No solution.

  18. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr windows update signing was a big zero day defect in the last 5 years. Had not been maintained to current day security standards.

    kurkosdr reality there are libraries under windows that change ABI a lot. Difference is the applications under windows that use those are smart enough to ship the version there application needs with there application.

    There is a commercial dumbness problem on Linux. Linux Distribution provide stable and unstable ABI libraries just like windows. If you are not mainline you should not bind you to the unstable.

    amazon mp3 down-loader using boost is a classic one. Under windows they ship with boost. Under Linux they used the distribution provided. Now why did things go wrong. Not a stable library used.

    Most of the ABI complaining about Linux is mostly bogus.

    Different programs need different versions of MFC and other things under windows as well.

    http://www.securityweek.com/microsoft-releases-update-forces-minimum-certificate-key-length-1024-bits

    Good right we recommend 2048 but we only force 1024 to be used. MS classic flip flop on updating the security.

  19. kurkosdr says:

    “As long as you don’t plug it into the Internet, yes.”

    What happens when you plug it into the internet? Oh yeah, Windows Update will automatically download all the latest updates for you, without breaking ABI or API compatibility.

    Tell me a Windows 0-day exploit in the wild during the last 5 years. But it seems you beloved java had such thing yesterday.

    And don’t get me started with Ubuntu and the fact their LTSes have a grand 2 years of security updates. Then it’s either upgrading to the next LTS and tolerating whatever random ABI and API changes havw happwn during those 2 years, or stay with the old unpatched version. But don’t worry, we are sacure because we are obscure.

  20. kozmcrae says:

    kurkosdr wrote:

    “Windows is stable for 3 years at least (ABI and API)”

    As long as you don’t plug it into the Internet, yes.

  21. JR says:

    @ Clarence Moon

    As always I am amazed at your brilliant predictions.

    As far as I know MS will be selling it’s Windows RT version of the surface tablet running an Nvida Tegra 3 chip which is based on the ARM architecture, not to mention that other company you are so fond of.

    As far a I know their chips are also based on ARM architecture so your comment …..

    “Remember you predicted the massive sales of “ARM PCs” for the Christmas season, but, so far, nada in the news.”

    rings a bit hollow.

    Please don’t bother to reply to this .

  22. JR says:

    @ kurkosdr

    Wow! If only I had known.
    Many thanks for the technical update.

  23. kurkosdr says:

    You mean like when Dell offered Ubuntu preinstalled and got swamped with returns and warranty claims when PulseAudio broke the upgrade? Same things would happen when X.org would break graphics cards and the linux kernel breaking wifi cards. Linux preinstalls are used by OEMs only as a bargaining chip to get that other OS cheaper or to get from MS what they want.

    On the other hand, Windows is stable for 3 years at least (ABI and API). All service packs and platform upgrades don’t break compatibility. OEMs don’t have to worry about upgrades and what they ‘ll break, and they like that. OEMs prefer bending over to Microsoft than rewriting drivers and explaining users why PulseAudio broke the media player. Boo hoo, that’s how the world works. Similarly with Windows Phone 8, OEMs won’t have to worry if during the next 6 months an “ice cream sandwitch” upgrade will break their SoC drivers and they “ll have to write the drivers again. Windows Phone 8 on the other hand has guaranteed upgrades. All the OEM has to do is press “send upgrade to users” and possibly not even that. Now that Windows Phone 8 supports multicore and HD displays, things will be tough for Android. Android was successfull until now because it was the only multivendor OS doing multicore and HD displays (WP7 didn’t).

    As regards Android on the desktop, Google struggled to make a tablet version (Honeycomb was made out of crap quick and dirty code), and you are expectinf them to cone with a decent desktop version before Windows 8 (or even 9) locks users in?

  24. Clarence Moon says:

    Imagine how happy they are that “Surface” will sell for $199, hardware + software when the OEM has to pay $50 for the OS.

    Such a rumor has not been confirmed, of course, but what about what is not being said?

    You will suggest, as always, that the OEMs can merely turn to Android, but nothing in the article hints at that. Rather than being a marginal supplier of some Surface-like product, the big boys choose to simply stay out of the business, giving the ARM processor manufacturers cause for concern. No one, other than you Linux fans, seems to think that there is any alternative to the situation.

    People may want small, cheap computers, but they want them with Windows, not the ersatz sort of thing you are proposing. Remember you predicted the massive sales of “ARM PCs” for the Christmas season, but, so far, nada in the news.

  25. dougman says:

    Far better it is for HP and Dell to push Android on the tablet. Once Libreoffice arrives for Android, it will make it even more enticing to the public.

    http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/libreoffice-for-android-advances-document-viewer-is-on-the-way/

  26. Thorsten Rahn wrote, “I’m seeing plenty of Windows 8 (RT) tablets by renowned manufacturers at the IFA”.

    IFA RT:“As for the XPS One 27, it comes with a massive WQHD resolution spread over a 27in diagonal. That’s a massive 2,560 x 1,440 pixels and according to Dell is more than twice the pixel density of comparable monitors…. It is already available for sale from £1699 “

    Imagine how happy they are that “Surface” will sell for $199, hardware + software when the OEM has to pay $50 for the OS.

  27. Thorsten Rahn says:

    And yet I’m seeing plenty of Windows 8 (RT) tablets by renowned manufacturers at the IFA. Have fun believing, Robert.

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