Close Encounter of the Wrong Kind

On the spur of the moment I downloaded M$’s 32bit preview version of “8”. Try as I might, I could not get it to run:

  • On the first go, I got Error 5D, which was correct. I was using a 64bit VM and had a bunch of required features turned off.
  • On the second go, the installer could not find any drives and could not find any drivers on the CD even with the “show all drivers” option.
  • I tried yet again selecting a popular Intel CPU option for KVM. No drivers again.

So, that was a complete waste of time (including entering the authentication code multiple times), bandwidth and storage…

I was not impressed. Debian GNU/Linux does the right thing for me every time. I guess M$ is not serious about running PCs in the real world. If this is the best they’ve got, the world will soon be safe from M$’s OS.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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42 Responses to Close Encounter of the Wrong Kind

  1. Brillo says:

    Windows Phoney, BSOD innovation for your BYOD

    It seems that someone has fallen for the oldest trick in the book.

    Ouch!

  2. ch says:

    Just when I thought BSOD jokes had gone ot of fashion …

    http://static.musictoday.com/store/bands/93/product_large/MUDD1910.JPG

  3. oiaohm says:

    ch there is a reason why most Linux WM make sure they can operate effectively left click only. Its called a broken mouse or being stuck on a Apple laptop.

    Also you cannot enable VM to use right click for VM options.

    ch Windows Phone 7 yes was design a little for BYOD but BYOD started before Windows 7 or even Vista.

  4. ch says:

    “Businesses are switching to BYOD.”

    Guess what? WP7 was designed exactly with BYOD in mind. Of course, thanks to MS’ defunct Marketing almost nobody got that message. (I saw one article about it in one German IT magazine.)

    “Restrictions are relics and not acceptable these days.”
    Yeah, that’s why Apple never sold one of their heavily restricted iPhones. Reality is that corporate IT is a lot about restrictions to enhance security. So the idea behind WP7 was: “Create a smartphone so compelling that people want to buy it, and put in enough security and central management that IT departments will have no problems admitting them into their networks.” By now we all know that MS didn’t pull off the first part of that with WP7, and it was behind WM in manageability, but the idea itself was Sound, and they might just have gotten it right with WP8. (It wouldn’t be the first time MS needs three attempts to get it right.)

  5. ch wrote, “On non-touchscreen devices Win8 will only do so-so, and a lot of people will stick with Win7. Businesses (the main concern for MS) are mostly just now migrating to Win7, so they will probably just ignore Win8 on non-touch.”

    Agree, partially. I still see many businesses and other organizations clinging to XP until the bitter end. There is only linear growth of “7” installed-base. That means M$ loses share seriously as many switch to web applications and thick clients.

    ch wrote, “tablets and phones with Win8 might well take off especially in the Business world – administrating them with GPOs will be a huge selling point. And all the restrictions of Win8 on tablets and phones are actually large advantages for businesses.”

    Disagree strongly. Businesses are switching to BYOD. Restrictions are relics and not acceptable these days. Why should anyone allow M$ to restrict what they can do with IT? That’s not why people use IT. Businesses don’t want to be in the business of administering PCs (holding the hand of that other OS). They want to be producing goods and services something FLOSS on ARM facilitates rather than restricts. Businesses are seeing that FLOSS on x86 works, too. WARM is such a small splinter of IT, business could well ignore it.

  6. ch says:

    “So, M$ is on the verge of losing all its advantages from backwards compatibility”

    Not on the desktop/notebook where it matters. On my Win8 notebook I can still run 20-years old Win16-software. On tablets, most old desktop SW is rather useless, anyway, because of the non-touch UIs. So my prediction is: On non-touchscreen devices Win8 will only do so-so, and a lot of people will stick with Win7. Businesses (the main concern for MS) are mostly just now migrating to Win7, so they will probably just ignore Win8 on non-touch. But tablets and phones with Win8 might well take off especially in the Business world – administrating them with GPOs will be a huge selling point. And all the restrictions of Win8 on tablets and phones are actually large advantages for businesses.

  7. ch wrote, “Had MS done at least the first three points, Win8 would be much more discoverable for newcomers,”

    Amen. I can tell you, pushing that M$-key is an unnatural act for me. Even when I used XP in the days, I never used it for anything. Also, “Start” was one of the key elements of Lose ’95 which M$ paid a $billion to promote. People don’t unlearn things easily. The mental friction creates resentment.

    So, M$ is on the verge of losing all its advantages from backwards compatibility and installed base of applications at least in ARMed devices which are out-selling Intel devices. “7” was their only bright spot in the last decade and now they are chucking all that eye-candy… “I know we told you eye-candy was good for you but new research says its not…” Chuckle.

  8. ch says:

    When I installed Win8, it essentially told me about most of those points and offered the option of shutting that off, which I did. Was easy enough, thank you.

    “-Perhaps most disturbing at all, the Windows Store and many of the applications that come with Windows that can’t be removed,”

    I removed everything I don’t want to use from the start screen. The binaries may still lie around somewhere, but what’s the matter?

    “require you to sign up with a Microsoft Account”

    I have a Hotmail account as my secondary (read: toy) e-mail account (because it’s spam-free and the other freemail account I used before most emphatically wasn’t) so I even set that up in the Mail app. This was strictly optional, like the option to use a MS account for log-in, which I didn’t do, I’m using an old-fashioned local assount.

    “and to fully utilize the software store, you have to link a major credit card/debit card to your account and agree to anything Microsoft or apps you use try to charge to it.”

    How else would you pay? (Immaterial to me so far since I practically don’t use “Metro” apps, I’m mostly sticking with the desktop.)

    PS: Why didn’t you post the link to where you copied all that?

  9. dougman says:

    Arguments aside, with M$ you do not own the software, you are forced to kowtow and do what M$ tells it to do, they can even change the contract (EULA) at a moments whim with an update.

    With Linux, you are allowed to do whatever you want and you actually own the software, that’s the key difference.

    Here’s what you agree to send to Microsoft now to get a fully functional copy of Windows 8 if you take the default settings (Some of these have been a requirement of various Microsoft apps and Windows in the past, some are new. This is in addition to anything mandated by their EULA, so you can’t opt out of all of it even if you tried):

    -Every site you visit in Internet Explorer.

    -Everything you download with Internet Explorer.

    -Every URL you click on in an application from the Windows store, regardless what browser it opens in.

    -Every web resource that an application loads.

    -Every application you have installed on your computer, regardless of where it came from.

    -Your EXACT location. (Via IP geolocation or GPS coordinates.) when you use an app that uses this feature. Note: GPS coordinates are accurate to within a few inches.

    -Crash data for any application that has a problem, including a memory dump. (Those can include personal information like passwords, site login data, your bank account information, truly any information the app had in memory when it crashed.)

    -Which parts of Windows Help you have read, and what URLs you clicked on in that.

    -You agree that they can force application updates on you, silently, even to install malicious features,even if you didn’t want the update.

    -You agree that they can update Windows, including for the purpose of stuffing in more malicious features, even if you didn’t want the update.

    -Applications can use your name, account picture, location data, and various Windows Live features, as you.

    -Perhaps most disturbing at all, the Windows Store and many of the applications that come with Windows that can’t be removed, like their messenger program that censors its users and spies on what they say, require you to sign up with a Microsoft Account (which is, I guess what they’re calling Passport these days), and to fully utilize the software store, you have to link a major credit card/debit card to your account and agree to anything Microsoft or apps you use try to charge to it.

    -You agree in the EULA that Windows can update things like their Windows Media Digital Restrictions Malware and you won’t try to stop it.

  10. ch says:

    Running Win8 in a VM – especially within a window – really sucks:

    – It uses the corners of the screen for important stuff like going from desktop to start screen (lower left) or opening the “charms” (silly name, upper and lower right) which includes settings and the button for shutdown/logoff/etc. Full-screen, that’s the fabled “mile-high target” – you just can’t miss. But when run within a window, it becomes a “hairline target” – you need to hit exactly the outmost pixels.

    – Alternately, you can use the Windows key on your keyboard to get the start screen (I actually prefer that). And Alt-F4 still closes stuff. (Interestingly, if you are within “Metro” then Alt-F4 takes you to the desktop. Go figure.) If the desktop has the focus, then Alt-F4 shows the logoff/shutdown/etc dialog. Really handy, but if you’re running Win8 in a VM, then your host OS might intercept those keys – no joy.

    -A Metro app is closed by grabbing to top of the screen and pulling it down – once again much easier done full-screen than within a window.

    I installed it on my notebook to really try it out, and I can use it just fine, but there definitively are too many things one simply must know. With just a few changes, MS could have made it much more discoverable for everyone:

    – A button on the desktop’s taskbar to open the start screen would have been fine – no, it doesn’t have to be labeled “Start”! 😉

    BTW, on wide-screen display I like to put the taskbar on the right-hand side of the screen: I get more vertical space for my apps, trading in only horizontal space the wide-screens have aplenty, and somehow the right-hand side seems more natural to me than the left-hand side. Of course, you can do that on Win8’s desktop, too – but the “target” for getting the start screen is still the lower-left! Putting a button on the taskbar’s leftmost or uppermost position (depending on orientation) and moving the “click target” with the button would be great. As it is, I put the taskbar to the left so it is still “connected” with the start-screen “target”. Just a minor quibble, but still …

    – The start screen really should have a button for the “charms” – and the person who came up with that silly name needs some cruel and unusual punishment. (I recommend Debian, at least for one month.)

    – The start screen shows a selection of installed apps that you can modify – essentially your favorites. Right-clicking reveals a button “All apps” – and that’s exactly what you get when you click on it. So far, so good – but why hide the button in the first place? The screen space it uses is not used by anything else – it’s reserved for that button only to show up on right-click, and that’s silly.

    -When the start screen shows, you can just start typing in the name of an app to start it, like with the entry box on Win7’s start menu. Maybe actually showing such an entry box by default would be a good idea.

    – Extra points for showing currently running “Metro” apps in the desktop’s taskbar.

    Had MS done at least the first three points, Win8 would be much more discoverable for newcomers, and even touch-screen users might appreciate the buttons. Well, I guess they had to leave some good ideas for Win9 :-/

  11. oiaohm says:

    oldman Linux people get use to the fact that after install there will be more productive applications. So blank slate having to install a Office suite is frustration to them. You see the same complaints when they got to Damn Small Linux or any of the other highly compact Linux system. So they expect more out box so will be disappointed with any Windows install and most light weight Linux installs.

    So you would call this being a Linux user.

    I have also got to remember this when customising virtual images of Linux don’t cut to bone or Linux users who are not me will complain. Windows users on the other hand you get away with it more.

    oldman
    –Then why not run it in a 32 bit VM?–

    This is an oddity. When running Linux, Freebsd, minix, Windows 7 and even reactos(open source clone of windows). Set 64 bit VM and it works no matter if its 32bit or 64 bit OS. Basically everything bar window 8. Everything only care if you set it too small not too big. Even OS X 32 bit will run in a 64 bit VM. 64 bit mode is not as memory effective if the OS is 32 bit.

    To be even more nasty Windows 8 can on some cpus I don’t fully know how fail in a 32 bit VM if the host OS is running 64 bit. Yes this happens windows or linux. Some of it appears that Windows 8 virtio drivers are touchy. Best was half way into install of windows 8 it deciding it did not know what the cdrom was restart the vm and it works. This was on 64 bit host running a 32 bit vm and the host was hyper-v. So there is a bug or 2 or 3 in the virtio drivers that does not appear when you have matched bit width.

    Windows 7 you did not need to care about the 32bit in 64bit vm it would work.

    Basically it is a new headache of Windows 8. Make sure you use the matching bit width to host at this stage unless you want migraines.

    Oldman with the bugs in virtualisation support in windows 8 don’t mix and match at this stage. Hopefully the RTM has it fixed.

    VMWare workstation for Linux oldman has the same problem with this 32 and 64 and Windows 8 being a prick. This is simple a case Windows 8 has a issue. Not a unworkable around issue when you know it. We are going to see quite a few people scream.

    Windows Linux Mac users are all going to be on the receiving end of this.

    Robert Pogson the method you did would have worked with Windows 7. Windows 8 is just being a prick. Hopefully becomes better behaved when its RTM images turn up.

    To be truthful Vista in VM was not much better in its development versions got better in the RTM as well.

    oldman
    “ANd that all that you have to do. I only bother with IE when I encounter a site that requires it. Otherwise it just sits there.”

    This is just another annoyance. If a linux user does not like the default browser installed in a Linux distribution they normally uninstall it and install the one they like.

    Linux users being Linux users. It annoys them if there is software still on a machine they will not use. Since that is space they could use for something else. OS X users are also more likely to want to be rid of stuff as well.

    oldman there is a culture difference here. Simplest answer is the truth over IE.
    “You cannot uninstall IE because other programs will be built to depend on it and will fail massive if you ever managed to remove it.”
    At that the Linux/OS X user walks away annoyed and leaves IE alone. Other wise you risk them researching into third party ways of getting rid of it and driving you up wall.

    Basically polite like you just did is not safe. You did not say why they could not remove it. So they will attempt to get rid of it.

  12. oldman wrote, “Then why not run it in a 32 bit VM?”

    I did not realize the machine was 64bit only. The normal Debian GNU/Linux installer will run on either kind. “8” is fussy, apparently. Anyway “8” and the VM for that other OS are two separate issues. Today was the first time I have ever run that other OS in a virtual machine. I expect bare metal would have been simpler but I have none here. I don’t want to dual-boot something just for testing.

    I have run oodles of GNU/Linux installations and never had an issue with drivers in KVM. I have also re-used and cloned VMs several times with no issues.

  13. oldman wrote, “Its very easy to remove…”

    Just took care of that. Thanks for the suggestion. I have freed my system of both the .iso and the virtual machine. I feel better all ready.

  14. Brillo says:

    you just go grab another one, so where does the repair come into play?

    As someone who has spent more than a decade playing with (metaphorically) fecal matter and drafting dysfunctional IT plans, you sure have a lot to say about broken things.

    Besides, don’t you sell Hitman Pro, registry “cleaners” and similar things to your customers? What happened to that now?

  15. Brillo says:

    I don’t need Windows 8 in a virtual machine (VM), as no one will ever use it.

    The copy of Windows 7 I am using right now is running inside a virtual machine, so there’s that.

    Besides, rarely anyone wants to boot an entire OS off of a USB on a regular basis either, so what’s your point?

  16. Brillo says:

    I didn’t use your QEMU settings. I ran virt-manager.

    Which was what you should have done in the first try.

    Amateur.

    I used settings for “7″ and it worked. Still not impressed.

    You were not impressed because it worked?

    I went out to pick beets so I don’t know how long it took.

    I have a nagging suspection that you are trying to insinuate that the installation process was slow rather than hinting to your next blog entry about home-grown vegetables.

    I ran the weather app and I had to tell it to use Celsius even though it knew my IP address was in Canada.

    A rather small problem, isn’t it? Well, at least I would bet it’s a much better experience than your misadventure with QEMU.

    I just have a bit of reservation in regards your ability to change trivial settings in something like the weather app, though.

    It took me a while to figure out that I needed to push a key to get something useful on the screen.

    I am not surprised given it’s RP we are talking about here.

  17. oldman says:

    “I was able to install FireFox with no problems but I know no way to remove IE. I just deleted its icon.”

    ANd that all that you have to do. I only bother with IE when I encounter a site that requires it. Otherwise it just sits there.

  18. oldman says:

    “I particularly do not like how “8″ steers one to using M$’s accounts.”

    Its very easy to remove…

  19. oldman says:

    “My hardware can run 32 or 64bit and the 32bit .iso was smaller. That’s all.”

    Then why not run it in a 32 bit VM?

  20. oldman says:

    “Isn’t that other OS supposed to be easier than GNU/Linux to install? ”

    It is. I installed it both under VMWare workstation and as a Boot from VHD process without any Problem.

    I suspect your problem is with QEMU/KVM – I would suggest that either virtualbox is better or if you really want to go for broke you could download the 30 day trial of VMWare workstation for Linux/

  21. oldman wrote, “download the 64 bit version of windows 8, to run in a 64 bit VM.

    All you do is make yourself look incompetent by doing it this way.”

    My hardware can run 32 or 64bit and the 32bit .iso was smaller. That’s all.

  22. oldman wrote, “We blame the user who talked trash without even getting through the install. You are supposed to be technical, you are supposed to be able to figure things out. Now show us.”

    Isn’t that other OS supposed to be easier than GNU/Linux to install? Haven’t you been writing that for years? I have no problem installing Debian GNU/Linux 9 ways but the defaults didn’t work for that other OS in a “preview” intended for the public. If I needed a few runs at it, what would it take for my wife to get it? or my neighbour? or some of the teachers and students I have known? What do they know about drivers? Why couldn’t “8” find standard disc drivers?

  23. Ted wrote, “who or what else could be at fault?”

    Uhhh… An OS that can find the files it needs to run on the CD but not the drivers… It was my fault I had the hardware settings wrong but the thing could not find any drivers for any hardware. I checked that. Where the Hell was it looking? It said it was looking on the CD…

  24. Brillo wrote, “fumbling through QEMU settings without knowing much about what he was doing. That’s just disappointing.”

    I didn’t use your QEMU settings. I ran virt-manager. Third time it worked. My error was using an old VM, forgetting that they are not generic but OS-specific. I used settings for “7” and it worked. Still not impressed. I went out to pick beets so I don’t know how long it took. I find the UI inconsistent. I ran the weather app and I had to tell it to use Celsius even though it knew my IP address was in Canada. To get back to “Start” seems to take random operations depending on which app is running. That’s not cool. I was able to install FireFox with no problems but I know no way to remove IE. I just deleted its icon.

    Some people will like the simpler interface but I think many will hate the loss of control. I particularly do not like how “8” steers one to using M$’s accounts. Sure, I do that with Google, by choice, but it’s the default option with “8”.

    It took me a while to figure out that I needed to push a key to get something useful on the screen. That will go down like a ton of lead bricks… Fortunately the virtual machine had a power button or I would still be stuck in “8”. Bottom line: “It takes 2.5gB of disc storage for that?”

  25. dougman says:

    Basically, you insert a blank USB drive into a Windows 8 Server machine, click “Provision removable drive with Windows To Go” , and that’s it. Unlike a live CD, though, you can create a Windows To Go installation with your documents on it — so you could, in theory, carry an up-to-date copy of your files and a bootable copy of Windows 8 in your pocket at all times. Unfortunately, for licensing reasons, it’s unlikely that Windows To Go will be available for consumer installations of Windows 8 — unless you purchase a second license.

    Ok, for that set up to work, you need the Enterprise version of Windows 8, which will not be cheap and be part of Microsoft Software Assurance. So how again will that work for the regular consumer?

    I don’t need Windows 8 in a virtual machine (VM), as no one will ever use it. Besides when they break, as Sinofsky demo’d at the keynote, you just go grab another one, so where does the repair come into play? It doesn’t, you go out and buy another one.

  26. Chris Weig says:

    Whereas Mr. Pogson didn’t nail anything. Installing Windows 8 is beyond him.

    And just as a reminder: Agent Smith was destroyed.

  27. kozmcrae says:

    Agent_Smith nailed it.

  28. Ted says:

    “Why don’t you just boot off the ISO / Live CD, oh wait M$ has not *innovated* that yet.”

    How would that help set up a VM properly??

  29. Brillo says:

    Why don’t you just boot off the ISO / Live CD, oh wait M$ has not *innovated* that yet.

    Windows To Go?

    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96321-windows-to-go-take-windows-8-and-your-files-with-you-on-a-usb-stick

    News much be travelling slow at your end.

  30. dougman says:

    Why don’t you just boot off the ISO / Live CD, oh wait M$ has not *innovated* that yet.

  31. Brillo says:

    You are supposed to be technical, you are supposed to be able to figure things out. Now show us.

    To be frank, I am not holding my breath here.

    Two links have already been posted here showing step-by-step how to get a Windows 8 install running under KVM. The only thing I am getting thus far is him telling the same story of himself fumbling through QEMU settings without knowing much about what he was doing. That’s just disappointing.

  32. Ted says:

    “Sure. Blame the user.”

    I don’t see why we shouldn’t. As it’s perfectly possible to run Windows 8 under Debian on a VM (which removes hardware concerns), who or what else could be at fault?

  33. oldman says:

    “Sure. Blame the user.”

    We blame the user who talked trash without even getting through the install. You are supposed to be technical, you are supposed to be able to figure things out. Now show us.

    Oh and I suggest that you try actually installing applications before you prejudge. Firefox Thunderbird and liebermanoffice all work.

    If you need help you know where to find me.

  34. Sure. Blame the user. I tried once more with a clean VM and got past the driver issue. I chuckled when I saw the warning, “Your computer will restart several times. This may take a while.”, so that’s par for the course. It’s taking a few minutes per “%” so it’s going to take some time.

  35. Brillo says:

    Oh, oh… Here the real kicker:

    http://www.upubuntu.com/2012/03/how-to-install-windows-8-under-ubuntu.html

    It didn’t take me over 30 seconds to find this link. Look, Pogson – if you honestly admit you don’t know your stuff, I am sure your critics will be less harsh on you. You are just digging yourself into a deeper hole here as we speak.

  36. Brillo says:

    Here’s a handy guide to running Windows 8 under KVM on Debian Squeeze;

    http://wp.libpf.com/?p=186

    So you are telling me that a Linux zealot suddenly loses his ability to read lengthy how-tos when the task in question involves Windows?

    Color me surprised.

  37. Chris Weig says:

    Classic flamebait material. What a rascal you are, Mr. Pogson.

  38. oldman says:

    Pog:

    If you are serious you really want to download the 64 bit version of windows 8, to run in a 64 bit VM.

    All you do is make yourself look incompetent by doing it this way.

  39. Ted says:

    Here’s a handy guide to running Windows 8 under KVM on Debian Squeeze;

    http://wp.libpf.com/?p=186

    If you have an old clunker you can do without for a few days, just install to bare metal. Provided it meets Windows 7 requirements, it’ll be fine.

    Or was this article just an excuse to stamp your foot and scream “Windows sucks!” after you failed to make it work?

  40. Agent_Smith says:

    And, fanboys attacking in 3…2…1…

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