LibreOffice Goes to Town

When I was a kid on the farm, “going to town” was the highlight of the year. We might only go to town two or three times per year. It meant something special was happening like getting eyeglasses or a family gathering.

In software, the equivalent thrill must be wide acceptance. Apparently LibreOffice is experiencing that thrill: wide range of contributing developers, wide range of users and wide range of organizations.

“LibreOffice is becoming increasingly popular in corporate environments. During the last months, several large public bodies have announced their migration to the free office suite: the Capital Region of Denmark, the cities of Limerick in Ireland, Grygov in the Czech Republic, Las Palmas in Spain, the City of Largo in Florida, the municipality of Pilea-Hortiatis in Greece, and the Public Library System of Chicago.

Dave Richards of the City of Largo has commented about the new release on his blog: “I have been testing LibreOffice 3.6 and am happy to see the progress. At this time all of our showstoppers are fixed and we probably will upgrade almost immediately when it’s released. Nice work. CMIS is shaping up nicely. I’ll be looking at 3.7 when it appears in the daily builds”.

In France, the MIMO Working Group – the ministries of Agriculture, Culture and Communication, Defence, Education, Energy, Finance Interior and Justice – with a total of 500.000 end users, has certified LibreOffice for deployment on every desktop. At the same time, the OSB Alliance joined the efforts of German and Swiss cities and communities sponsoring development on the LibreOffice codebase.”

see The Document Foundation announces LibreOffice 3.6 with a wealth of new features and improvements « The Document Foundation Blog.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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67 Responses to LibreOffice Goes to Town

  1. ch says:

    “Because 3 mistakes made the openssl disaster happen.”

    Hmmm.

    First mistake: Upstream only offers building blocks but no integrated system – that’s left to downstream.

    Second mistake: Downstream dicks around with code from upstream.

    Third mistake: ?

    “€20 per month is quite a lot.”

    For you, mayhaps. But for a corporation paying €thousands per employee and month, no, it isn’t. You might as well start worrying about the toilet-paper budget.

  2. oiaohm says:

    ch
    €20 per month is quite a lot. €240 a year. Not small coin as it sounds. x25 user €6000. More users the worse this number becomes. This number will become important latter.

    ch
    “And why in the world would I use the Enterprise version for 25 users? So the price for Exchange is $708, and your calculations go out the window. Even if you install two servers, that’s just $1416.”

    Out box that only support 5 user/devices add on 20 68×20 that is another $1360 in cal to get up to 25 users. $2781. Basically Zimba Standard for 6 years just with support or 3 years with a Perpetual. That is as long as you only stop at 2 servers.

    ch no matter how you look at it that instance pricing is a problem.

    Now I do the maths on standard you could say almost 1 for 1 but appears to be in exchange standard avantage.

    There is a problem here Exchange standard cannot be put head to head with Zimbra standard or even Zimbra basic. All Zimbra support integration with asterisk. So this “Voicemail with Unified Messaging” that you only get in enterprise exchange.

    Also per device passwords are default on all Zimbra for activesync that also only comes in enterprise exchange.

    Accepting the fact that Exchange standard and Zimbra standard don’t match brings a problem on compare how much each of those is worth.

    For the best feature match against Exchange Standard is Sogo. The problem its it costing system is different.

    http://www.sogo.nu/english/support/commercial_support.html

    $5000 dollar per year no matter how many servers you have. No cals or mailbox counting. As many as you hardware can handle. I know there are cheaper support options there for single server I would not be touching those because I am going to deploy pairs at min. So any single server failure does not cause any disruption.

    The free version of Sogo is fully featured. Sogo there is no problem if you don’t pay. Don’t pay don’t call support. In fact having 24/7 support call with Microsoft costs extra. Mostly works out worse than paying the $5000 or $10000.

    Note the €6000 for 25 users. These no user counting licenses that are out there can be quite cheap to large companies.

    Ch Zimba is about the most expensive in the FOSS class you should go for. Open-xchange is also up there for being expensive it also has instance pricing why I never touch it.

    The most expensive for the features you get in group-ware is Exchange bar none. If you start seeing that something is more expensive than exchange standard normally the problem is it has extra features that exchange standard does not have.

    Ch something has instance pricing start worrying basically. This now means when you can cluster something because you have the free hardware resources todo so you don’t because you cannot get approval for the extra license.

    Ch old saying “No such thing as too many backups. There is only such thing as one too few.” Wrong licensing forces you into one too few way too often.

    This is the problem in most Windows networks you walk into how many servers 1. What happens if that server fails business is in big trouble. Most of this is caused by the instance pricing of the software not the cost of the hardware.

    In one way I am glad to see MS kill off the small business server that prick would not allow multi ads in network.

    At 100 users at MS costings you are normally cheaper to go out and buy the support contracts for the instance free, count free FOSS stuff. Less paperwork less headaches.

    This is when you are trying to go cheap.
    http://kolabsys.com/pricing
    70 dollars for a 50 user server.
    200 dollars for 50 active sync.
    800 dollars for 50 client software kolab client is their outlook replacement.
    450 dollars if you choose to go Thunderbird.

    So if you skip there client. 70+200=270 per server cost. 1 exchange standard server with 5 cals you can buy a server that handles 10 times as much. At 2 servers you can afford to buy the PIM client(ie the 800 dollars) yes you do have room for a few outlook connectors.

    Of course you can choose not to run the certified versions and use kolab completely for free with no user limits.

    When you know the price of kolab. Zimbra is expensive.

    kolab is that cheap you cannot buy less than 50 users. They will not sell you a 5 or 25 user license.

    Every 4 cals on an exchange standard is the cost per server for a extra year on kolab. The instance of exchange standard price buys you 2 years straight up. By the time you get to 25 users dual server kolab is cheaper. When you get to 50 its way cheaper. At 50 even spending on all the optional extra 37 dollars per named user for a single server. To get to the 68 dollar cal price using kolab you have to be running 3 servers. 110 of enterprise is 6 servers of kolab. That is to match the cal price. Remember you have got your client side software for that. By cal windows exchange enterprise instance is only worth 2750 yet MS is charging $4051 and standard is only worth $340. So you are handing over a decent amount in instance charge.

    Using other providers you don’t pay these instance charges.

  3. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson
    “For a large number of configurations Zimbra open source offering has lots of features for $0.”
    The Open Source one completely lacks the cluster support. For live hot sync. There are reasons why I don’t use Zimbra a lot sogo is cheaper and its backend can be configured for hot sync.

    Brillo
    “Unit tests are supposed to be done way, way before intergating the application to the system. If you find yourself running unit tests while deploying the app, you are do it wrong.”

    History of failures tell you repeatily if there is a produced binary and an extra step has to be done to perform unit tests human will screw up and skip doing the unit tests.

    ch
    “Please explain how the best unit test in the world could have found out that particular problem?”
    I said a lesson learnt from the openssl disaster.

    We you study why something failed you check out every path. Now if openssl had a unit test that could have detected it since the unit tests had never been run would have changed nothing.

    So to correct the problem that happens with openssl was alter how unit tests run and implement a unit test. Because 3 mistakes made the openssl disaster happen.

    Openssl disaster is one of the most recent but going backwards there were before that a few glibc disasters caused by unit cases not being run on build and a few gcc disasters caused by the same thing. Openssl is just the most recent example of a software builder skipping over the unit testing.

    Even MS products have come out and failed there own provided testing. Its not just a FOSS thing. There is only 1 way todo unit testing basically correctly in the build design of the application to make sure it happens most of the time. On by default.

    Yes you are right is meant to happen. History of human errors tells you application build process directly effects how dependable that it will be done before you get the application. From a safe design build process OpenOffice is not.

  4. ch says:

    “Lesson of openssl disaster says making unit tests automatic as part of the build process that person building has to pass instruction to turn them off not on.”

    Please explain how the best unit test in the world could have found out that particular problem? The code did exactly what the programmer wanted it to, and it did produce random numbers as intended – so it would pass all tests. It would take more than a unit test to find out that the random numbers are not random enough.

    So, to quote Brillo:

    There is no end to your made-up nonsense, is it?

  5. Brillo says:

    So when program builds and it says complete it works. Not have some extra step to find out that the program works. Extra step to run unit tests makes the possiblity of deploying a program that could have been detected as broken by the unit tests so preventing people like you getting a broken program.

    Unit tests are supposed to be done way, way before intergating the application to the system. If you find yourself running unit tests while deploying the app, you are do it wrong.

    There is no end to your made-up nonsense, is it?

  6. ch says:

    “nothing better to do with €20”

    Who says it’s either – or? They do pay christmas bonusses 🙂

    “The only thing worse than giving M$ money would be throwing it to the wind”

    Not true for businesses, but you don’t want to understand that, of course.

    “(waste and littering)”

    Don’t worry, that money won’t litter the landscape for long 😉

  7. ch wrote, “In the really large company I worked for the combined price for all the MS products used was on the order of €20 per employee and month”.

    Well, I suppose that’s a good thing if your company has nothing better to do with €20… Let’s see… Free Lunch every Wednesday, breakfast every day, Christmas Bonus, … The only thing worse than giving M$ money would be throwing it to the wind (waste and littering).

  8. ch says:

    “Brillo $4051 per instance price of exchange enterprise.”

    And why in the world would I use the Enterprise version for 25 users? So the price for Exchange is $708, and your calculations go out the window. Even if you install two servers, that’s just $1416.

    And if my company is big enough to warrant the Enterprise version, my procurement staff will have a nice ol’ chat with MS’ salesmen. In the really large company I worked for the combined price for all the MS products used was on the order of €20 per employee and month (Chris Weig, can you help me out with the exact number?) – roughly what some companies pay to supply their employees with soft drinks.

  9. oiaohm wrote, “6 years zimbra professional only puts you back $4461 for as many servers you want clustered for reduncey. “

    For a large number of configurations Zimbra open source offering has lots of features for $0. e.g. most of the features are identical with the pricey versions (7 pages of an 11-page list of features). Just at a glance, the differences seem to be multiple domains and mobile syncing. Those don’t strike me as must-haves for any small or medium-sized organizations. It might matter for organizations with large numbers of mobile staff or global corporations enduring mergers… rather small niches.

  10. oiaohm says:

    Brillo
    “So you are telling me that there aren’t enough financial incentive to just get your software licensed through Sony?”
    PSP case sony would not license non game software at all. This is why this was not possible with that hardware. Now hardware now is a different matter. Phones do support adding what ever software.

    Brillo its different now. You brought up the PSP as an example. Really go read what Sony will and will not license for the PSP.

    http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/en-us/pricing-exchange-server-email.aspx
    Ok since you asked for you head to be ripped off.
    Brillo $4051 per instance price of exchange enterprise.

    http://www.zimbra.com/products/pricing.html
    $2,231 / 25 pack 3 year subscription.

    So you want to run exchange enterprise with a live backup 25 cal you are straight up for 2 instances that is a nice $8102 dollars. Now if I want to run 4 instances $16202. That instance price on Exchange Enterprise becomes a real expensive bastard really quickly. That instance cost stacks up big time.

    6 years zimbra professional only puts you back $4461 for as many servers you want clustered for reduncey. Remember you only have 5 years with exchange by life cycle before having to pay extended support. So $4461/6×5=3717.5 is the correct price for Zimbra 1 server about the same 2 servers you are saving 4 you are ahead by miles.

    So almost half for my case were I install with backup servers is true. The cal price on exchange enterprise is $110 a cal. Zimbre 6 years $60 dollars. Lets say I throw in a Perpetual for good measure $63 then it comes upto slightly more expensive at $120 but you have 1 extra year of support. That $120 is high because the support alone is less than the multi year license. Then cost per named user price comes about the same.

    But you have to remember you never need to rebuy the Perpetual part once you have a Perpetual of X number of mailboxs that is yours forever across all future versions. Upgrades are linked to your last Advantage/Premium Support contract.

    First cycle Zimbra can work out about the same as exchange if you only run 1 server and buying the Perpetual as well as support. Next cycle its about 50 percent. Now if you want some true redunacny straight off the bat Zimbra is cheaper by large margin particularly when you want a lot of redunancy.

    Offical mainstream support for Exchange is 5 years. Past that you have to repay anyhow.

    I was nice about dmake but since you want to fight you asked for it Brillo. Its clearly documented on the openoffice site about the problem.
    http://www.openoffice.org/tools/dmake/
    You don’t know dmake its unsupport trash. There should be a tool to take dmake to something that is maintained. About the only thing still using dmake is OpenOffice and Libreoffice. Libreoffice is in the process of getting rid of it.

    Please note the dmake used by OpenOffice and LibreOffice is not Distributed Make(dmake) that provide in Solaris (Sun) Studio. The OpenOffice dmake is “Workshop dmake” in fact Workshop dmake will not do a Distributed build. Wrong dmake Brillo. Yes both makefiles have incompadible syntax. One is supported one is not. If it was using Distributed Make it would still be somewhere near sane.

    When I said strange make system called dmake I did really mean that. You say dmake and the first thing people think of is Distributed Make. Not the strange one you have to use.

    So basically OpenOffice is building with a program that is lead developer is gone and that is barely being maintained.

    Brillo
    –“*make” has essentially nothing to do with unit tests but will run the code for you as long as you have them specified in your Makefile.–

    The unit test thing is an extra. It has found if you place unit tests as something option for a person todo they never run them. This traces to the openssl disaster of debian. Lesson of openssl disaster says making unit tests automatic as part of the build process that person building has to pass instruction to turn them off not on.

    Brillo
    “No one wants to develop and maintain an entire productivity suite in-house. That’s why they go out and buy that stuff in the first place. dmake? GNU make? WHO. CARES.”

    Correct no one does what to maintain an entire productivity suite alone this is true. If you are apply a fix to something you don’t want want to be using a no longer support make system that you have to fix the make system just so you can build the program with the fix you need. Dmake(Workshop) should be long gone from Openoffice it has not been maintained properly for years. It should have been replaced by a maintained make system there are enough of those. Libreoffice has chosson to replace dmake(Workshop) with gnumake.

    Brillo
    “Give people something that works or don’t.”

    The auto unit test one applies to this one exactly.

    So when program builds and it says complete it works. Not have some extra step to find out that the program works. Extra step to run unit tests makes the possiblity of deploying a program that could have been detected as broken by the unit tests so preventing people like you getting a broken program.

    Yes the unit test one is critical to quality production.

    Brillo something built with a non maintained make system is sign of major problems particularly if there is no plan to properly maintain it or replace it.

    Brillo you just proved you did not have a clue how bad OpenOffice is internally.

  11. Brillo says:

    There is one post preceeding “Aug 12th, 2012 at 8:46 pm” but it’s got eaten up somehow.

  12. Brillo says:

    Not to hook it up to a external display to run standard thin terminal software on them to make them more useful than a game station.

    So you are telling me that there aren’t enough financial incentive to just get your software licensed through Sony? Then why bother with a cellphone?

    Do you honestly believe that the reason people seek out readily usable software is that they want to later go around looking for a contractor in Bangledash just to pick up the pieces of them? Or they are willing to open an entire department just to develop applications for when they need them? I said “LOL” not because somehow I am stunned by your oh-so astounding statements but pitying at your lack of ability to see the forest for the trees.

    Have a good read. Notice that OpenOffice uses a strange make system called dmake it does not run its unit tests every build.

    I know what dmake is, alright (although it appears to me that you simply don’t)? In fact, everyone familiar with Solaris (Sun) Studio knows what it is. Let me get this straight:

    1) I am sick and tired of you throwing insults at people while pretending that no one can see right through your tall tales and deduced instantly that you are a hack.

    2) “*make” has essentially nothing to do with unit tests but will run the code for you as long as you have them specified in your Makefile.

    3) None of this stuff has anything to do with the matter being discussed.

    No one wants to develop and maintain an entire productivity suite in-house. That’s why they go out and buy that stuff in the first place. dmake? GNU make? WHO. CARES.

    Give people something that works or don’t.

  13. Brillo says:

    Standard support gets you to the point of those expensive deals with Microsoft entry level support contracts where you can ask for MS Office to be altered but might not be granted.

    Pfft… “ask for MS Office to be altered”… That’s cute.

    Now let’s revisit what you said previously on the subject matter:

    “You can stop paying the subscription at any time and keep on using libreoffice and all following upgrades. Stop paying under Microsoft Office no more upgrades.”

    You see the problem here? You are contradicting yourself. Like every TV show with too many episodes, you are suffering from a continuity problem. The stuff you have made up is so volumous that you just don’t know how to handle it while retaining at least some semblemce of internal consistency.

    Remember I didn’t tell you anything about what those supports are. These are your own answers, and you know what that means? It means you are too eager to show off and end up jamming a foot in your own mouth. Oops…

    You pay more than 50 dollars for a boxed set of MS Office.

    I think I have already mentioned there are other ways to get a legally licensed version of MS Office without buying a box set. All that Googling is straining you a bit, isn’t it?

    Subscription cost of zimbra to Exchange Enterprise gets you 4-5 years. Yes fair compare Exchange Enterprise comes with 25 include cals.

    Read the page. A perpetual license comes with a mandatory support contract of at least one year. With your “fair” comparison I don’t think you are saving any money at all.

    Most cases you don’t use device cals on Exchange. Only one problem here a Zimbra mailbox is about half that of a exchange cal.

    Again, it has been shown that you don’t understand CALs and have no idea as to how to make them work. Thus, I don’t really think I need to stress further why your above statement is total rubbish.

    But, hey, what the heck – here’s the link to the standard pricing based on Open Licenses:

    http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/en-us/pricing-exchange-server-email.aspx

    Half? I think not.

  14. oiaohm says:

    Brillo
    http://people.gnome.org/~michael/blog/2012-08-08-libreoffice-3-6-0.html

    Have a good read. Notice that OpenOffice uses a strange make system called dmake it does not run its unit tests every build. The OpenOffice code base still has huge amounts of legacy crap in it.

    So a large percentage of developer time since the split off from OpenOffice by LibreOffice has been spent cleaning the program up.

    Just to top things off sections of its C++ code is pure nuts.

    Today LibreOffice is many times more dependable than OpenOffice ever was and still is. That is not to say LibreOffice is perfect yet.

    Brillo basically Libreoffice has started implementing Quality Controls and focus on Code Quality. Something they were unable todo while Sun and Oracle were in command.

    I will say due to the clean up a few faults will turn up here or there. Less faults that what was turning up with OpenOffice due Unit testing being performed now in LibreOffice. LibreOffice promises to get more quality as development goes forwards.

    Brillo the many changes of LibreOffice makes comparing to OpenOffice of old so invalid its not funny.

    Easier code contribution by gerrit on LibreOffice will be one of the most automated code submission systems on any Open Source project.

  15. oiaohm says:

    Brillo
    Basic support from novell is the same level of support you get on a boxed or OEM version MS Office. Basically bugger all.

    Standard support gets you to the point of those expensive deals with Microsoft entry level support contracts where you can ask for MS Office to be altered but might not be granted.

    You pay more than 50 dollars for a boxed set of MS Office.

    Brillo
    “No. Look at your own link, nutbag.”
    Most of recent ones. Most 2011 units either have MHL or true HDMI port all bar a few odd balls. So HDMI support in one form or another is becoming highly common on android devices. Not a rarity as you were making out.

    Brillo
    “No. The edition offered by Novell comes with its own branding and you can’t just go vanilla and expect them to give you any support even when you are still on subscription.”

    Out of date information true for Novell OpenOffice. Not true for Libreoffice. Take a closer read of the Picture Brillo it says Novell OpenOffice still. There is no Novell Libreoffice. Sub branding is not allow to be done on the Libreoffice trademark. Novell would have to use a completely different name if it wanted to sub brand.

    Brillo this is the problem you are referring to how things were in the time of OpenOffice. We are now in the time of Libreoffice now is different. Moving between vendors is now possible due to the face support vendors are now using the same program because they can now ship their patches up stream.

    Brillo catch up the times on this point. There is no Novell branded Libreoffice you cannot buy that it don’t exist. Instead you buy a Novell support contract for the usage of LibreOffice.

    Copyright assignment caused fragmentation that fragmentation is gone and if you look closely at the Novell link the picture of the Office suite is wrong. It read openoffice Novell edition that product does not exist any more.

    Brillo
    “Look – the pricing structure is right there at plain sight.”
    Zimbra is cheaper than Exchange. I have fully priced both out. Exchange is the more expensive buy at least the type I would require.

    Of course you might have screwed your maths up.

    http://www.zimbra.com/products/pricing.html
    Also note the feature set of zimbra Professional Edition is Exchange Enterprise. So two lots of zimbra professional for the price of 1 Exchange Enterprise using Perpetual. Subscription cost of zimbra to Exchange Enterprise gets you 4-5 years. Yes fair compare Exchange Enterprise comes with 25 include cals.

    Ok you might have priced out Exchange Standard but that is too small for what I use.

    Also common miss read is the per mailbox thing. That is not per server installed with Zimbra. If you deploy a cluster containing 25 mailboxs you only need one 25 mailbox license. So yes that Zimbra thing expands along the same way Exchanges Cal’s do.

    Most cases you don’t use device cals on Exchange. Only one problem here a Zimbra mailbox is about half that of a exchange cal.

    Brillo
    “You need a cracked version of PSP to hook it to an external display? Have you even seen a PSP, fruitcake?”
    Not to hook it up to a external display to run standard thin terminal software on them to make them more useful than a game station. You had to crack their security or use a developer edition.

    Brillo you asked for the advantages and you just go LOL. Also applying time of OpenOffice to the time of Libreoffice. FOSS world changes.

  16. Brillo says:

    Why are you still here, oiaohm, even after you have been exposed again and again that you are nothing more than some nutjob who pretends to be knowledgeable by making stuff up on the spot?

    You can stop paying the subscription at any time and keep on using libreoffice and all following upgrades. Stop paying under Microsoft Office no more upgrades.

    Then explain to me what Novell means by “basic support” and “standard support” for LibreOffice.

    http://shop.novell.com/store?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=novell&Locale=en_US&productID=108881200&resid=UCeCpgoHAtQAADomMncAAAA5&rests=1344766629192

    Look – I don’t need you to tell me what they are. Rather, I just want to watch as you suffer trying to arm-wave your way out of this.

    Don’t like Novel quality of support you can go to lanedo and others. So you are not dealing with just one vendor who can lock you to a price.

    No. The edition offered by Novell comes with its own branding and you can’t just go vanilla and expect them to give you any support even when you are still on subscription.

    Full means if you have your own developers on staff to fix issues your self.

    LOL.

    Finally with Libreoffice if there is some feature that it does not have you can force the issues by commissioning a developer or developers to make it for you

    Even more LOL.

    Also the infrastructure overhauls have been proven cheaper long term time and again than staying with MS Office.

    More LOL than even more LOL.

    Incorrect as normal. Full commercial Zimbra is cheaper than Exchange by at least half.

    Look – the pricing structure is right there at plain sight. If you have problems with that, take it to VMWare. If you suck at math, use a calculator. I don’t care.

    The HDMI support in one form or another is true to all android devices.

    No. Look at your own link, nutbag.

    This was done by cracked versions of them.

    You need a cracked version of PSP to hook it to an external display? Have you even seen a PSP, fruitcake?

  17. JR says:

    @ Clarence Moon
    Clarence, why is that you are always on about the rich buying apple iPhones and the poor buying android based phones.
    In my experience I have always noticed that people who harp on certain things either have something to hide or harbor a deep resentment.
    Of course I could be wrong in your case but you do seem to go on about the difference between rich and poor. I assume you are one of the rich who can afford to buy an Apple iPhone. I will say it again no need to knock the poor just be grateful that you are presumably rich enough to be able to afford an expensive phone.
    Just in case herewith a definition of a cheap-skate as per thefreedictionary.com
    cheap·skate
    n. Slang
    A stingy person; a miser.
    Also has it ever occurred to you that not everybody can afford an expensive phone but to refer to them as cheap-skate is a cheap shot. Excuse the pun.

  18. oiaohm says:

    Brillo
    “So what the differece between that and an Office 2010 subscription except the obvious lack of feature parity to the latter and a negligible price gap?”

    1) You can stop paying the subscription at any time and keep on using libreoffice and all following upgrades. Stop paying under Microsoft Office no more upgrades.

    2) Don’t like Novel quality of support you can go to lanedo and others. So you are not dealing with just one vendor who can lock you to a price.

    3) Full means if you have your own developers on staff to fix issues your self.

    4) Finally with Libreoffice if there is some feature that it does not have you can force the issues by commissioning a developer or developers to make it for you directly without having to pay a huge yearly fee for the privilege that includes the clause to say no(yes MS Office high level support contract).

    With MS Office the feature has to go through MS approval to be included. This last one is a difference between OpenOffice and StarOffice from the time of Sun and Oracle to current day LibreOffice as well. Since all alterations to mainline had to have approval of Sun and Oracle. Libreoffice is working on does the feature work model if so you can get it included.

    “Overall, you aren’t delivering any tangible benefits to business owners. Instead, you are basically telling them to conform to your arbitrary definition of “ethics” by insisting on infrastructure overhauls that will inherently cost them money. Last year, it was StarOffice. Now it’s LibreOffice. What next?”

    Brillo so you forget StarOffice had commercial clones like Novell OpenOffice. So was fragmented badly. LibreOffice ended that fragmentation.

    Also the infrastructure overhauls have been proven cheaper long term time and again than staying with MS Office. Of course you do have to price out of you can afford to break the lockin and move to a multi-vendor supply market that Libreoffice is.

    Brillo
    “Take Zimbra as an example. The groupware is licensed at a per-mailbox, per-year basis with support provided as a seperate package. The perpetual licensing plan, also, is essentially no different to Exchange Server price-wise.”
    Really did you not look up the Exchange and Zimbra pricing.
    http://blog.zimbra.com/blog/archives/2010/04/zimbra-tco-bests-microsoft-exchange-in-university-of-pennsylvania-case-study.html

    Incorrect as normal. Full commercial Zimbra is cheaper than Exchange by at least half. Mostly because Zimbra has to compete with other groupware solutions sogo, Kolab and citadel comes to mind. Price of Exchange is distortion of its vendor locking.

    Also if you cannot pay your subscription for some reason the data stored by the commercial is readable by the open source community addition with Zimbra. If you are forced to drop back to the community addition you can run as many users as you like.

    Brillo the rate of HDMI on phone is increasing. Entry level 10 inch tablets here in Australia with mini-HDMI is 199 AUD. Some of the other china clone phones are 99 AUD with micro-HDMI port in side of device.

    Closer you are to china the more cheap phones you see with HDMI.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Android_devices The HDMI support in one form or another is true to all android devices.

    MHL they don’t have to pay licensing on in a device. Now that we have HDMI 1.4+ with Ethernet Question is will MHL be upgraded to support that.

    MHL does support HDMI touch protocols.

    Brillo
    “By your stupid little argument, there should be a PSP docking station in every cubicle. Why aren’t you advocating that?”
    This is where people like you are so stupid. This was done by cracked versions of them. Cracking did not make the viable for normal users.

    The power of a PSP is larger than the thin terminal.

  19. Brillo says:

    Sell a billion copies

    If you give one person a copy, that’s one-sixth of the world’s population you are talking about here.

    Even if you mean a hundredth of that, you are still looking at one-third of the US population.

    Don’t you have any sense of scale, Mr. Pogson?

  20. Brillo says:

    Another bit of stupidity…

    “1-Device 1-Year Basic Subscription List Price Starting at US$50.00″ For windows machines.

    So what the differece between that and an Office 2010 subscription except the obvious lack of feature parity to the latter and a negligible price gap?

    Overall, you aren’t delivering any tangible benefits to business owners. Instead, you are basically telling them to conform to your arbitrary definition of “ethics” by insisting on infrastructure overhauls that will inherently cost them money. Last year, it was StarOffice. Now it’s LibreOffice. What next?

    You can’t blame companies like RadioShack for not caring.

  21. Brillo wrote, “No longer will a particular application cost extra $billions

    A $billions app? At that price, I could buy an entire software company. “

    M$ charges ~$100 a copy for its OS or office suite. Sell a billion copies and that’s ~$100billion well beyond the cost of production or a software company that could produce it.

  22. Brillo says:

    @RP

    No longer will a particular application cost extra $billions

    A $billions app? At that price, I could buy an entire software company. I have seen your extraordinary claim – where’s your extraordinary proof?

    This leads us to the next bit of stupidity…

    @Oiaohm

    Because you are a idiot you don’t understand that FOSS software itself is not sold. Instead you look for where companies are being commissioned to add features to it. Provide training for it and so on.

    Of course, when companies add features to a piece of software, they never think about putting price tags to them – or do they?

    Take Zimbra as an example. The groupware is licensed at a per-mailbox, per-year basis with support provided as a seperate package. The perpetual licensing plan, also, is essentially no different to Exchange Server price-wise.

    It time to wake up from the FOSS fantasy land, isn’t it?

  23. Brillo says:

    “Simple question how many of those could hook onto a full size screen. Then go an look at the Android items of today and note how many have HDMI ports of some form.”

    Let me answer that for you – not many.

    The cost of components is expensive. This means the lower the price range your phone is in, the less likely you will see it brandishing an HDMI output. A $50 Huawei with HDMI output? In your dreams, maybe.

    Think a “$50” Samsung Galaxy S3 with a 2-year contract. That’s $10 extra a month you have to pay on top of that price.

    There is essentially no difference between that and buying a cheap laptop – except that you are now stuck with a smaller screen, a bunch of cellphone apps and a whole lot less computational power.

    “Device is stuck to the screen it contains no external screen difference.”

    Have you ever seen a PSP? I bet you haven’t.

    Unlike your old-school Gameboy, a PSP has – you guess it – a video output, controller ports, a library of apps, network connectivity, etc. etc. etc.

    “Convergence”? You betcha!

    By your stupid little argument, there should be a PSP docking station in every cubicle. Why aren’t you advocating that?

  24. oiaohm wrote, “companies are being commissioned to add features to it. Provide training for it and so on.”

    This is the right way to do IT. Thanks to FLOSS licensing the cost of software will be shared and minimized. No longer will a particular application cost extra $billions to deploy because it’s controlled by a monopoly. Sharing is good for individuals, families, communities, organizations of all sizes, governments and businesses of all sizes. The idea that a tiny group of individuals working for corporation X are the best ones to use to run the world’s IT is utter nonsense. The world can make its own software and share it much more efficiently.

    It’s a simple matter of maths. Suppose 100 million people/PCs need an office suite. Are they better off contributing to a FLOSS project at cost and getting features they actually need or paying ~$100 a copy ($10 billion) to M$ for a product riddled with features not used, restrictions on the licence galore, and the pressure to repeat the expenditure every few years? Make the number 1000 million people/PCs and there is no doubt, FLOSS is the right way to do IT.

  25. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon
    “Same thing, but someone with such poor language skills might not realize that. Also, your painfully long URL to your cite does not show anything at all about anyone getting any revenue from selling LibreOffice and does not even show anything about anyone getting paid.”
    SUSE and Lanedo are the parties being paid. Both to implement OOXML support in Libreoffice. It is in that link go read it again.

    “The programming work will be completed as a partnership between the SUSE LibreOffice Team and the open source experts at Hamburg-based Lanedo.”
    Yes FOSS way of stating who is getting paid. €140,000 is already given. Completion ammount requires a extra €30000. So the contact is a nice €170,000.

    That is a single deal for a single feature. Yes its showing 2 parties being paid.

    Because you are a idiot you don’t understand that FOSS software itself is not sold. Instead you look for where companies are being commissioned to add features to it. Provide training for it and so on.

    So profit is being made from LibreOffice. Just you are so much of a idea you cannot even read url documenting such a sale.

    Now you accuse me of failing to understand what I find. I have given you a direct link showing a sale under-way and you cannot even read it and see the sale and the profit made.

    SUSE and Lanedo don’t lease out there coders time at a loss. All the sales around Libreoffice are written up in same basic way. Feature in LibreOffice for so much Cash that might come from one party or might come from many.

    So companies who using Libreoffice will not be buying Libreoffice. They are buying the other things.

    http://www.lanedo.com/libreoffice.html Really how hard you had the company name Clarence Moon.

    What Clarence Moon don’t you know how to operate google and this is why you are being such a idiot.

    http://www.novell.com/products/libreoffice/ Not for sale right???
    “1-Device 1-Year Basic Subscription List Price Starting at US$50.00” For windows machines.

    Of course support for Libreoffice comes as part of a SUSE subscription same with a Redhat subscription or a Ubuntu subscription.

    Basically Clarence Moon LibreOffice is being sold in many ways and you are too much of a idiot to be able to see it.

    Google suse and lanedo would have lead you to those two links.

    Yes you do have to remember Linux Distribution subscriptions do include support for the packages in it you use.

  26. Clarence Moon says:

    Now mostly???

    Same thing, but someone with such poor language skills might not realize that. Also, your painfully long URL to your cite does not show anything at all about anyone getting any revenue from selling LibreOffice and does not even show anything about anyone getting paid.

    Mix up in my head was Luna 1969C

    You wish that was the only mix up in your head, Mr. O! You brag of your knowledge of history, but all you have is what you Google for the occasion, and you usually fail to understand what you find.

  27. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon
    http://www.osb-alliance.com/index.php/de/presse/pressemitteilungen/819-suse-and-lanedo-implement-ooxml-improvements-in-libreofficeopenofficeorg-for-local-and-national-authorities

    Claim of no evidence there is SUSE and lanedo making some money so bogus as normal Clarence Moon. I told you one place where you need to look to find the evidence that you were speaking out your ass.

    osb alliance is interesting is like a place you need a feature you cannot afford to develop it alone you find others who are willing to split the cost with you and they link up a programming party to build what you need.

    You look around you will find Oracle Redhat and others contributing to LibreOffice being paid to implement features for their clients to do Office Automation.

    Clarence Moon
    “The money is in the commercial uses of office automation and it is all going to Microsoft.”
    Your quote
    “it mostly goes to Microsoft.”
    Now mostly??? See all is not valid.

    The unsubstantiated claim is bogus about the paid developers of Libreoffice. Lot of reports about who is being commissioned to work on what in Libreoffice are on the public record. There are a lot more commissioned not on the open public record.

    Remember the contracts going to development on Libreoffice have no overheads of paying for marketing or paying the normal retail sales channels or any of that mess.

    Clarence Moon FOSS they plunk money down for developers to implement the following features they want. They don’t plunk down money for a box in a retail store. FOSS are real products to companies. Just pay for it differently. You pay for FOSS when you want more features or stability.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_program Russian program. I did make a mistake the physical samples came back a year and a half after the USA Moon landing. Electronic data on possible chemical make up came back from prior Luna devices sent.

    But the Russians were the first to send something around the moon and have it come back to the earth. The Russians were also first to land something on the moon.
    31 January 1966 Luna 9 Launched to land on the moon. This was land not truly crash straight into it.

    So parks in Australia had been receiving data from the moon for quite a few years before Apollo 11.

    July 16, 1969 Apollo 11.

    Mix up in my head was Luna 1969C. The first attempt to get samples from the moon is Russian. Launch failure June 14, 1969. 1 month before Apollo 11. Luna 16 same design Lander and return unit that worked. Luna 16 Lunar Sample Return to Earth September 24, 1970. Note Russia has already landed on the moon and orbited around it and even orbited around and returned to earth before Apollo 11 is launched.

    Interesting enough Luna 16 did the trip without any human correction. First true UAV.

    Russians send more items to the moon than the USA at less cost in fuel even with the few that blew up. Reason transporting humans is expensive due to the amount of supplies we need to stay a live.

  28. Clarence Moon says:

    However Wikimedia is showing 50% higher percentage for iPhone than for Android.

    You have to look deeper into the issue, I think. Wikimedia is counting usage of these devices and one hypothesis is that the Android phone is the choice of price buyers who choose them over the premium priced “genuine” iPhones. Since a cheapskate in phone buying is also a cheapskate in phone using, they do not pay for an expansive data plan and only use their phones sparingly.

    Another thought is that Wikimedia is only counting hits on Wikipedia and the iPhone user is much more urbane and more likely to use their iPhone for intellectual pursuits whereas the Android buyer is playing Angry Birds most of the time.

  29. Clarence Moon says:

    Complete lie. OSB Alliance and others are putting money into LibreOffice for those things.

    Your inability to write clearly has a corollary in your inability to read clearly, Mr. O. Perhaps some of the developers of LibreOffice are paid for their work, although your claim is completely unsubstantiated and there is no evidence of that presented, but the point was that no one is making any money from office automation other than Microsoft and Adobe.

    I was simply saying that whatever the amusements of those who are not commercially using these products might be, when they plunk down some money for real products, it mostly goes to Microsoft.

    As to that being a “lie”, I am reminded of your claim that the Russians went to the moon and brought back samples prior to the Apollo missions. You have yet to own up to the lies that you told there.

  30. Chris Weig wrote, “Apparently OO/LO are not good enough for theses, and therefore not good enough for the masses.”

    The reason LaTex etc. are heavily used for theses is that styles exist for the particular fields. e.g. Physics. The reason more exist for those older technologies is that they have been around for ages and have accumulated more. LibreOffice will have templates for such things sooner or later. The masses certainly don’t care that the software they use is used for PhD theses.

    Here is an example of a template for a thesis from University of Manitoba.

    LibreOffice can use it with no problems at all. I can save the result in OTT format. See? No problem at all. Another strawman beaten to death.

    The fact that M$’s office suite has been a standard in documentation for a decade or more does not detract from the utility of LibreOffice. The UofM actually distributes theses as PDF… which as you well know, M$ did not produce natively for ages.

  31. oiaohm says:

    Chris Weig there is a problem here you assessment is kinda off.

    You are overlooking that more and more mobile phones are coming with docking options to allow them to have access to larger screens and keyboards…..

    The line between smart phone and PC is being blurred.

    http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android This class.

    Its android when its a phone in you hand. Ubuntu when its in it dock connected to a full screen and keyboard.

    Items like this are not the define smart-phone or the define PC. This is convergence. At least able to replace the thin-client device on desk with the cpu in phone.

    Chris Weig when the docked items have the same Screen, keyboard and mouse as a desktop computer why will the end users not see them as kinda the same.

    You problem is you said on the smartphone. These docked system once docked it running in the phone but you are not using the interface on the phone but the interface connected to the dock.

    Issue of interface is dead with these docking devices.

    Really HDMI 1.4 could be a kind of game changer as well. Yes its possible to send keyboard and mouse data over existing HDMI 1.3(the touch input support protocol it can carry extras like button presses from keyboard and mouse pointer information). HDMI 1.4 also support 100 mbps Ethernet. So dock connect a HDMI plug and you are done is possible.

    Chris Weig evolution of what you general tv and screens are doing will make docking simpler basically.

    Your arguement basically has holes in it Chris Weig. As this keeps on evolving forwards we are going to see phone docking and stepping into PC roles happen more and more.

  32. Chris Weig says:

    It’s really funny to notice how many people try to deny the fact that “smartphone” ain’t actually just phone but computer. I swear they would call it computer if Windows would have 68% market share instead of just 2-3%.

    Smartphones are limited in their usage. That’s a fact. If more and more people use smartphones as their primary computers, then this has nothing to do with smartphones being able to replace personal computers, it has rather to do with the fact that it’s a profitable market. What you can do on a smartphone represents at best a tiny subset of what you can do on a “real” personal computer. Even something mundane as surfing the web becomes a rather tiresome affair on a smartphone. Tablets ultimately suffer from the same problem.

    And then there’s the problem of naming things. You underestimate how much people depend on categories. Even if you can violate a smartphone in order to make it a personal computer by installing some crappy Linux distribution on it, people won’t see it as a personal computer.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Brillo
    –As I said, Blackberry. Now add Palm, Apple Newton and Amstrand PenPad to your list of “things almost no one cares enough to call ‘computers’ before Android”.–

    Simple question how many of those could hook onto a full size screen. Then go an look at the Android items of today and note how many have HDMI ports of some form. Then inspect all those you mentioned for a video out of any form. I guess you are in for a nice surprise here.

    There is a difference between a Device Computer and Personal Computer classification. Yes there is a key difference been the means to link on big screen and other external devices. Device is stuck to the screen it contains no external screen difference.

    Yes a Device can still be a computer. Computer is too generic of a term to mean much. The classifications are key at the moment to see what is going on.

    Yes some android phones are truly devices some are not.

  34. Brillo says:

    I swear they would call it computer if Windows would have 68% market share instead of just 2-3%.

    Who’s “they”?

    As I said, Blackberry. Now add Palm, Apple Newton and Amstrand PenPad to your list of “things almost no one cares enough to call ‘computers’ before Android”.

    Who cares about mobile devices if they are not your personal Team Edward or Team Jacob, eh?

  35. Mats Hagglund says:

    It’s really funny to notice how many people try to deny the fact that “smartphone” ain’t actually just phone but computer. I swear they would call it computer if Windows would have 68% market share instead of just 2-3%.

    To Robert Pogson: I do agree with your critic of Wikimedia statistics given too high % for iPhone, iPad and Mac. Clearly it’s absolutely impossible that almost 10% of non-mobile pc’s are Macs because we can use even Apple’s own sale figures of 2005-2012. Even if we knew that Mac has little bit longer live time than Windows PC.

    Then let us just compare the figures of iPhone and Android. The sale rate was 2:1 for Android last year and 2012 showing some 3,5:1 rate. However Wikimedia is showing 50% higher percentage for iPhone than for Android.

    Cut half of Apple figures of Wikimedia and give Android 9-10% and Linux PC some 4% and you’ll get much more realistic picture of OS in 2012.

  36. Chris Weig says:

    Hello.

    Can someone of the happy Linux friends please answer my question how a dissertation is something for the masses and how LibreOffice therefore qualifies as a tool for the masses? No? I figured as much.

    Let’s experiment a bit with some Google searches:

    site:.edu “thesis” “template” “word” — about 89,600 results.
    site:.edu “thesis” “template” “openoffice” — about 6,320 results.
    site:.edu “thesis” “template” “libreoffice” — about 245 results.
    site:.edu “thesis” “template” “latex” — about 111,000 results.

    Wow, LaTeX and Word easily beat OpenOffice/LibreOffice. Who would’ve thought? Apparently OO/LO are not good enough for theses, and therefore not good enough for the masses.

    Okay, okay. The dougman clown used the word “dissertation”. So let’s repeat the searches, shall we?

    site:.edu “dissertation” “template” “word” — about 407,000 results.
    site:.edu “dissertation” “template” “openoffice” — about 1,350 results.
    site:.edu “dissertation” “template” “libreoffice” — about 8 results.
    site:.edu “dissertation” “template” “latex” — about 7,030 results.

    OMG! It seems far too many students in the US are writing their dissertations with Word. And the universities are conspiring with them. Don’t they know that OpenOffice/LibreOffice is for free and certified for dissertations by dougman?

    Dark times, Mr. Pogson, dark times.

  37. oiaohm says:

    oldman
    “Quantity does not lead to quality sir, nor does it make for a coherent and directed development effort.”

    Critical mass of developers in a Open Source project is not only about Quantity is about Quality of integration between them. If the developers are not working with each other productively you don’t have a critical mass.

    “coherent and directed development effort” is something required in the closed source model. Its not fully required in the open source model. Linux Apache and others have proven this to be of lower importance. Most import is the features people need get developed. Not what order they get developed in.

    Constancy in final product can be achieved with out coherent and directed development across the board as long as management struct is sound. LibreOffice foundation management struct is sound.

    Particular groups are targeting particular areas of LibreOffice. Like one group is funded to bring full OOXML support.

    So LibreOffice is taking on more a Linux Kernel design. You have subsystems there is coherent and directed development effort inside those. When you get above that those merge. There is no need for guide management to mess with the subsystems. What is ready from each of the subsystems get merged into the final product. What is not ready is held back and worked on for the next release. Also only putting in the next tree what can be delivered. Features almost never get pulled out the Linus tree. Same is true for the Libreoffice.

    Result is stability of final product. Rushing features out the door is a really bad thing.

    Libreoffice development is functionally different to OpenOffice. To be correct LibreOffice development management model works. Sun/Oracle model for OpenOffice development was completely dysfunctional.

    oldman
    “LibermanOffice has also yet to even begin to acquire the third party add-ons support that has allowed office to perform tasks that go beyond its base feature set, including the integrating with so called competitors services that you seem to think is important.”
    oldman you know better than to lie to try to win your point. There are third party add-ons for LibreOffice that allow Libreoffice to perform tasks that go beyond its base feature set. Not as broad as MS Office yet but they do exist. There are even the reverse where LibreOffice is the third party plugin into something else.

    Really there are already items in LibreOffice that MS Office cannot do even by third party extensions.

    Of course Oldman will miss like MS Office 2010 is missing Corel Draw import filters compare to older versions of MS Office. So for old archived of documents LibreOffice will open them where MS Office 2010 and future version will fail. Its not only adding new features you have to worry about its the features Microsoft is also deleting. So as long Microsoft keeps on doing what they are doing at some point you will require LibreOffice Oldman. Learn to accept it now.

    Clarence Moon
    “The money is in the commercial uses of office automation and it is all going to Microsoft.”

    Complete lie. OSB Alliance and others are putting money into LibreOffice for those things.

    So a percentage of money for commercial usage of office automation is going into Libreoffice. This is growing. Clarence Moon this is why critical mass has been achieved.

    Of course it suite the trolls to keep on claiming the development is not funded. Reality does not agree with you at all.

  38. Clarence Moon says:

    only 69% of wiki clicks done by Windows OS

    Is there some sort of “click prize” that they are missing out on getting? It looks to me that the vast majority of people access Wikipedia using Windows and 10% of that number of Windows users use Macintosh instead. That’s 99 out of 100 PC users. 1% or so use Linux on conventional computers, but it is hard to tell exactly since the percentage is so small.

    More and more people are also using their phones and tablets to access Wikipedia, too. Most of them are using some sort of Apple product.

  39. Clarence Moon says:

    LibreOffice is not about commerce in office automation…That makes commercial enterprise only part of the picture.

    Suit yourself, Mr. Pogson, I guess I agree with you here. As you observe, outside of commercial enterprise, no one really needs an office automation suite, so it hardly matters which one they pick. Pick OO or LO if all you are about is immaterial.

    The money is in the commercial uses of office automation and it is all going to Microsoft.

  40. oldman says:

    “The USA is contributing a lot to FLOSS yet it’s the rest of the world that is reaping the benefit. Don’t the USA see the big picture in IT?”

    Yes we do pog, that is why we are using commercial software and FOSS – each according to the requirements for the job.

    We are not hating idealogues like yourself who would have the world wasting eons of time reinventing the wheel all to avoid the “ebil M$”

  41. Fixed the date on that link, Mats. 69% is interesting but unfortunately Wikimedia tracks a narrow part of the world being mostly English hits so it reflects mostly growth in MacOS and iThingies a peculiarly USA-centric thing. Still, it’s competition and M$ is having to compete on price/performance even in its own backyard. What I find strange is that the USA which supposedly is a free-market economy is willing to shift from one monopoly, M$’s, to another, Apple’s, rather than to real Freedom using FLOSS. The naysayers will say that it’s because Apple’s stuff is better than FLOSS but that is weak. The USA, alone, is large enough to make its own software without either M$ or Apple and could contribute less to GNU/Linux and Android/Linux than Apple and M$ presently cost them… Yet, the USA is always harping on “high taxes” and lowering costs and efficiency… Go figure… The USA is contributing a lot to FLOSS yet it’s the rest of the world that is reaping the benefit. Don’t the USA see the big picture in IT?

  42. Mats Hagglund says:

    Dramatic change in IT. Latest Wikimedia statistics showing that only 69% of wiki clicks done by Windows OS.

    http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2012-07/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm (RP:changed the date to 2012-07)

    Windows is now losing markeshare average some 1,5%-unit per month. Just two years ago Windows had still over 85% of wiki hits. The latest 6 months has been even much worse collapse for Redmond than those of 2010-2011.

    There are hardly any hope for Microsoft boys. Their dictatorship has evaporated like a bad smelling fart above Sahara.

  43. kozmcrae says:

    Robert Pogson wrote:

    “LibreOffice is not an attempt to copy the folly of M$.”

    Bravo! 10/10. You nailed it Robert.

    Oh, I liked the “Get over it.” part too.
    I’m baiting. Just a fair warning.

  44. Clarence Moon wrote, “Commercial enterprises, which form the bulk of the commerce in office automation products, “.

    This is your mistake. LibreOffice is not about commerce in office automation but providing users of PCs with the ability to create, examine, and modify documents. You are comparing apples and oranges. In North America, for instance, the typical home has more than one PC yet has only one or two “workers”. That means for every PC in “business” there is another used personally at home. That makes commercial enterprise only part of the picture. M$’s office suite is ridiculous in a home setting or even a small business (where most people are employed).

  45. oldman says:

    “Libreoffice has managed todo what is required. Get the critical mass of developers. Now its a time factor nothing more. Along the way Libreoffice will not bind to just the MS services but also to the competitors.”

    Quantity does not lead to quality sir, nor does it make for a coherent and directed development effort. LibermanOffice has yet to attain feature parity with Office 2010, let alone the new version that is due out soon. LibermanOffice has also yet to even begin to acquire the third party add-ons support that has allowed office to perform tasks that go beyond its base feature set, including the integrating with so called competitors services that you seem to think is important.

    But the final killer IMHO remains the reality that there is no longer even a fig leaf of company backed effort directing the growth and development of LiebermanOffice, a factor that will in the end keep its growth from going anywhere beyond the community that uses it now.

  46. oiaohm says:

    LibreOffice 3.4.4+ on does not have that one any more. Also people with newer versions of Acrobat reader can open the old files as well. Yes bug in Acrobat reader as well.

    Linux Apostate around the same time OpenOffice developed a bug that shows half of the text.

    Interesting one the LibreOffice one was a failure of Acrobat Reader to be able to read embedded functions as per standard. Other pdf readers did not have a problem.

    Basically anyone using a pdf reader that worked to spec could read it. Just happened this time Adobe Reader was not to the spec they wrote for loading embedded fonts.

    Format bugs are a true pain in Ass.

    Clarence Moon
    “The FLOSSers generally lack any experience in this core environment and likely cannot understand why someone would pay for MS Office when what they perceive as equivalent functionality is available for free.”
    Please look at what LibreOffice is lining up for 3.7.0. This is why I say critical mass factor. Sharepoint and the Competitors to share-point supported by the 3.7.0 lines. Exchange time is numbered.

    This is the problem Clarence Moon Libreoffice development team is not FOSSers as you want to call them. They are people working in company environments who understand what is wanted as the majority now. This is the critical mass factor.

    Now even with a critical mass factor of the right developers producing code takes time.

    With buy your own device. Lot of enterprises is wanting LibreOffice to support HTML5 from business servers. Outlook email client in the buy your own device market is not important since Zarafa already does a good impersonation of Outlook in web.

    I have not seen a HTML 5 version of MS Office even mentioned by MS for businesses to run on other own servers.

    Clarence Moon you are so screwed and you don’t get it yet. Libreoffice has managed todo what is required. Get the critical mass of developers. Now its a time factor nothing more. Along the way Libreoffice will not bind to just the MS services but also to the competitors.

    Alfresco and others vs sharepoint. Then there will be other groupwares vs Exchange.

    Vendor lock in bits are losing their hold.

  47. Linux Apostate says:

    My Debian install is the stable variety… best sort of Linux, I think. I know that Debian will eventually break things – they weren’t going to stick with KDE 3.5 and Gnome 2 forever – but with stable, there is some insulation against unwanted “upgrades”, and for now it still says Openoffice.

    I always notice Openoffice updates because the whole thing is always completely redownloaded (great packaging there). There hasn’t been one for a while. It’s easily the biggest piece of software in my Linux VM, incredibly bloated, and updates really hurt.

    My favourite Libreoffice bug is PDF export. Choose PDF-A/1 mode and then try to open the resulting PDF with Acrobat Reader. This once caused me some misery, because I sent a Libreoffice PDF round to a number of people by email, only to find that only the other Linux users could view it.

  48. Clarence Moon says:

    applicable to a modern-day environment

    That is the key to it all as far as I am concerned. MS Office today is not really about Word or Excel or PowerPoint, it is about Outlook and Sharepoint and Exchange. Commercial enterprises, which form the bulk of the commerce in office automation products, rely on the integration of the office suite into their daily operations and MS Office has become an essential piece of most businesses.

    The FLOSSers generally lack any experience in this core environment and likely cannot understand why someone would pay for MS Office when what they perceive as equivalent functionality is available for free. Coupled with the difficulty for a cheapskate to see past the price tag in general, they miss the obvious reasons for MS Office continued success and universal popularity.

  49. oiaohm says:

    Linux Apostate really you need to look closer at debian provided OpenOffice. Particularly the patches that make up the -7. You will find to your shock horror its part LibreOffice.

    Reality people on Linux using their Distribution sources never install pure OpenOffice for the past 8 years. Its always tainted with code from the LibreOffice tree to fix bugs in the OpenOffice mainline.

    Install mainline OpenOffice sometime you Linux and learn that things are not that good either.

    Linux Apostate so what you were using was halfway in the middle. I have found LibreOffice in latter releases being more stable as the cleaning of old code out reduces. Also I have some advice. .0 Libreoffice packages avoid like plague if you are after something stable. .1 and on and its sane.

    I would suspect you tried a .0 Linux Apostate. Its like Windows without the first service pack.

  50. Brillo says:

    If you don’t have anything good to say, why not keep quiet? I have written a Master’s thesis and a GNU/Linux desktop system would have been wonderful.

    Oh, poor you! I did a thesis, too. The only difference was that the college provided all the that I needed to complete it. If you wanted MS Office, there was MS Office. If you wanted LaTeX, there was LaTeX. The point here is – it’s not hard at all for an educational institute these days to provide a computer for a student, postgrad or not. If you think your situation is in anyway applicable to a modern-day environment, then you seriously need to wake up and smell the coffee.

  51. Linux Apostate wrote, “I have found Libreoffice to be just a buggy version of Openoffice, and I’m glad Debian is still bundling the latter.”

    Hmmm. I haven’t found any bugs in LibreOffice.

    Debian packages both LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org. OpenOffice.org has filed against it many more bugs in “testing” branch but that just reflects its longer record. Both have very few bugs.

  52. Linux Apostate says:

    I have found Libreoffice to be just a buggy version of Openoffice, and I’m glad Debian is still bundling the latter.

    Every time he posts, kozmcrae sounds more and more like an evil overlord. Does he have a goatee and an evil laugh? Does he say things like this:

    “Soon, Libreoffice will be the world’s office suite! BWAHAHAHAHA! The Cult of Microsoft will bow before me, and I shall not be merciful! HAHAHAHA!”

  53. Brillo, not having any strong argument against the message, attacks the messenger: “Translation: if it works for me, it must be good enough for everyone else.

    I kind of feel sorry for those who pay you to “fix” their computers.”

    If you don’t have anything good to say, why not keep quiet? I have written a Master’s thesis and a GNU/Linux desktop system would have been wonderful. It would have saved me from hiring a draughtsman and a typist/secretary, a Hell of a lot of time, and done a much better job of it. Unfortunately I received my M. Sc. in the 1970s shortly before PCs became available and the first PCs were too limited and too expensive for me for a decade. I bought my first PC in 1980 and it was nowhere near as capable as a modern smart phone/tablet. RAM was ~8K and clock was 1MHz.

    It’s clear from the context that the commentator was writing about the utility of GNU/Linux systems or systems running LibreOffice and comparing such to the needs of ordinary folks not doing content-creation. Clearly if a GNU/Linux or LibreOffice system is useful for a creator it must be useful for a consumer who only needs to run a small subset of applications. Brillo distorts the message.

  54. Brillo says:

    When I show them all the alternatives

    You mean like registry “cleaners”? I have seen better “alternatives” people sell in after-midnight infomercials, to be frank.

    Like that bed-side gun rack or that strange-looking work-out thingy.

    I wish they would understand that Android and Linux is the way to go these days.

    Really?

    http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/top-5-android-malware-troublemakers-idd-828191

    You know a parent usually teach his or her child to wash hands before every meal, right? Now picture a twisted version of that in which the parent instead tries to teach the child to go onto a strange diet to avoid getting sick. After all, less people fall ill eating unpopular foods, right?

    The latter is exactly the kind of magical thinking you are promoting with your “service”.

    Some have seen the light, others are hold-outs for whatever reason, but eh, I do not proselytize.

    I thought people use the phrase “see the light” only when they try and promote a religion.

    It must be a very bizarre world that you live in.

  55. oiaohm says:

    oldman
    –“Libre Office will be the World’s Office Suite.”

    Come the revolution we will all be eating peaches and cream, eh Mr, K.–

    Oldman you need to go and visit some other collages in the USA and find out that your MS Office bent is not everyone. UCLA (University of California at Los Angeles) for example. The numbers of LibreOffice users is growing.

    Maybe we will be eating the peaches and cream. LibreOffice has reached the point it has more full-time paid developers working on it than Microsoft Office. This is the Critical Mass bit I was talking about. Funded by its Users has been achieved. When you have bodies that have 1/2 a million users or more its cheep for them to fund developers than pay MS.

    Once a open source project reaches the critical mass of developers the next question is how long before it catches it commercial competition. History tells you it will. OpenOffice due to issues with copyright assignment was never able to hit critical mass.

    Just go look at LibreOffice git and see the numbers of regulars. There are scripts developed to be applied against the Linux kernel Git to tell you how many developers there are and where they are coming from. From that you can work out the numbers of full times.

    Clarence Moon “A “dissertation” generally means a presentation of original research for a doctorate and that seems inconsistent with his career in doing installs of applications and OS on someone’s PC.”

    Correct point but you did not see the detail behind that. Its the server mode operation of Libreoffice where it can directly be collating data from a cluster as it processes. Depends on how you a processing your research what kind of office suite you should use and even if you should use a Office suite. Latex is superior for particular types of maths and other research data formatting.

    Clarence Moon “So is it fair to assert that a doctoral candidate’s ability to stumble through a FLOSS word processor implies that everyone can manage?” Reality same can happen with MS Office.
    Wrong tool wrong job headaches old rule has never changed. FLOSS Office is particular good with particular things. Being data collection point for a cluster is one of those.

    dougman and Chris Weig without stating the field cannot state if LibreOffice is the best selection. The big thing is for some cases LibreOffice is the best selection just has functionality that makes the job simpler getting your research data into it.

  56. Clarence Moon says:

    Translation: if it works for me, it must be good enough for everyone else.

    A better translation might be that Doughman (could that be his real name?) is only indulging in wishful thinking. A “dissertation” generally means a presentation of original research for a doctorate and that seems inconsistent with his career in doing installs of applications and OS on someone’s PC.

    So is it fair to assert that a doctoral candidate’s ability to stumble through a FLOSS word processor implies that everyone can manage? There are those who demean the value of advanced degrees, but the logic here is clearly misapplied.

  57. kozmcrae says:

    @ldman farts:

    “Come the revolution we will all be eating peaches and cream, eh Mr, K.”

    Come? You missed it @ldfart. The revolution has started.

  58. dougman says:

    Re: I kind of feel sorry for those who pay you to “fix” their computers.

    Agreed!! Don’t get me wrong, I gladly take their money, but the justification is why? When I show them all the alternatives?

    I tell customers, “Once I touch your machine, and if you follow my guidelines, you should not have to call me for the next year”

    Sadly, some do not listen and the culprit is M$ vulnerabilities, which are always resident and never, ever go away. I wish they would understand that Android and Linux is the way to go these days.

    Some have seen the light, others are hold-outs for whatever reason, but eh, I do not proselytize. You should see some of the serious looks I get, when I show them my laptop and remote into my Linux demo boxes at home.

  59. oldman says:

    “Libre Office will be the World’s Office Suite.”

    Come the revolution we will all be eating peaches and cream, eh Mr, K.

  60. Chris Weig says:

    If Libreoffice is good enough for creating one’s dissertation, then it is good enough for the masses.

    As long as you used a 12 point font you could probably still produce your dissertation with a text editor (and I’m not referring to LaTeX). It’d certainly be good enough.

    Anyway, you’ve got it all wrong. A dissertation is a very specific sort of text which is exactly not a sort of text written by (or even for) the masses.

  61. Brillo says:

    If Libreoffice is good enough for creating one’s dissertation, then it is good enough for the masses.

    Translation: if it works for me, it must be good enough for everyone else.

    I kind of feel sorry for those who pay you to “fix” their computers.

  62. kozmcrae says:

    This is what it looks like when the World is in the early process of switching over to Libre Office. It makes sense. With all those users it won’t be hard to imagine picking up many more developers.

    Libre Office will be the World’s Office Suite. It will have all the features to cover every need. In a decade or so, Microsoft Office will be nothing more than a bad dream.

    Que roar of laughter from the Cult of Microsoft. The dumb bastards don’t know what’s hitting them.

  63. dougman says:

    If Libreoffice is good enough for creating one’s dissertation, then it is good enough for the masses.

    Business customers are jumping on the notion of always saving money. Why spend $200 per seat for Office 2010, when you can get the same thing for one-tenth the cost??

  64. oiaohm says:

    Chris Weig really 3.7 the version after 3.6. Is lining up to include lots of features that Sun and Oracle was not considering merging.

    LibreOffice is getting a very stable supply of developers.

    CMIS work is quite a major one. I am coming very suspect that Libreoffice has reached the critical mass point with developments to fund its development going forwards.

  65. Chris Weig wrote, “A typical Mr. Pogson article.”

    You have my MO backwards. I have this Press This widget that inserts the link and an optional quotation first, not last… Fortunately, I do have several types of articles I write just to prevent boredom. Lately, the little woman has had me expending tons of energy rehabilitating the old homestead so I have had little energy to do more. Yesterday, I distributed 4 cubic metres of gravel the old fashioned way, by the sweat of my brow, and then I mowed some of the weeds and changed the oil in the mower on a very warm day. Renovations continue for a week or two longer…

  66. Chris Weig says:

    A typical Mr. Pogson article.

    First, present something completely unrelated which is at best a very, very far-fetched analogy.

    Second, quote LARGE parts of an off-site article to make up for the inability to write anything meaningful on the topic.

    Third, insert a link.

    Finished!

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