More FUD Gone

One of the key elements spread by FUDsters is the doubt about being able to do real stuff using */Linux. The naysayers trot out some pet application that they may never have used as an example of an application not available on FLOSS systems. The reality is that FLOSS on a general-purpose computer can do just about anything. Take Android/Linux, for instance. It’s on hundreds of millions of personal computers now and things like AutoCAD are available to run on it. The ISVs cannot pass up platforms that popular. And, yes, Android/Linux is a Linux distro…

It has over 1 million installations already and it’s a FREE APP! People who are mobile do indeed have to do stuff they used to do only at their desktop PCs.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology. Bookmark the permalink.

31 Responses to More FUD Gone

  1. oldman says:

    “Every tool has its proper place and so does Linux and both FOSS and commercial applications for it.”

    Amen.

  2. George Hostler says:

    Actually what some people don’t realize that the real value of AutoCAD on Android is the reading / viewing capability. Out in the field, a construction manager can explain a problem with a structural / heating ventilation air conditioning / electrical detail on these little handhelds to an architect or engineer, either of which are away from the office. Then receive back the solution graphically through AutoCAD.

    There is a place for AutoCAD on these little handhelds, not so much in serious drafting, but for a quick field reference. It is tough to carry a laptop, but the readily available Android tablet makes things portable. Also, the engineer or architect can place little field annotations and notes for later assimilation on a CAD workstation.

    Every tool has its proper place and so does Linux and both FOSS and commercial applications for it.

    Sincerely, George Hostler

  3. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon.

    This is the problem most people think that Autocad is dominate problem is its only dominate in schools. Once you get out into real world Autocad limitations hurt.

    Autocad yes did sneak in and steal the house and building design stuff big cads for a little while have not taken this laying down http://opendesign.com/ Yes shared library between all the closed source cads providing access to dwg files. Opendesign happens to be lead developer of the format Autocad uses these days. LibreDWG and libDWG from the open source camps are a little dicey. Reason why I have to check imports using those.

    “drafting work is, I believe, about 100% AutoCAD.” Basically this is completely wrong. Drafting work is a mixture of soldworks, NX, DraftSight, VariCAD along with many others.

    Each of these cads does something Autocad does not do well if not many things Autocad does not do well.

    A person doing a building in VariCAD can have exact list of what materials are required with projected costs for the building even allowing for cutting wastes while drawing the building. This is particularly handy where a building that has a tight budget.

    A person using DraftSight has lower software expenditure to recover. So they can under bid the Autocad person since DraftSight and Autocad produce about equal results. Since its a free for individuals program you can give DraftSight to your client so avoiding version miss match. Yes DraftSight under cuts Autocad.

    A person using Soldworks can talk about the exact structural strength of the final product where autocad is not exact in this regard.

    A person using NX users can talk about if it will fly or float or otherwise move through fluids well as well as exact structural strength as well has having a very good cost engine.

    Clarence Moon the simple point here is if you do not choose the CAD that suite the field you are working with and use the generic all rounder option that is expensive Autocad you lose.

    The correct generic all rounder to choose is DraftSight yes it has Linux version. Better to keep you money you would have spent on Autocad to spend on one of the specialists that suite the field you are working in since that will make you more competitive.

    Autocad WS is really a response to the fact that all competitor cads have an viewer option for client and had not done a android or iphone versions yet.

    Yes autocad did sneaked in. Now that they are spotted they are being kicked in the teeth by the older commercials. Implementing the features of the older commercials is not a cheap or fast process.

    Clarence Moon most if not all of the CAD’s that are Windows and OS X only have some nasty flaws that will cause you to lose in the bid process. This includes autocad.

    Even in some case blender the 3d animation package is the best choice.

    http://www.blendernation.com/2012/02/01/target-backpacks-designed-visualized-with-blender/

    Blender has a very good cloth simulator and fluid simulator so allows you to find many design faults before cutting a single bit of cloth.

    What you are producing decides the Cad you should be using. Sometimes the choice is odd but works great.

    For a while autocad had format dominance that has been gone for a few years.

    AutoCad WS is just as useful to a DraftSight user as a AutoCad user.

    Flying Toaster the simple point by end of year it will not matter. Autocad reliance to the CAD world is fading. AutoCad WS is basically to get Autocad name back in the face of proper CAD users.

  4. Flying Toaster says:

    That Toaster flies in the face of AutoDesk stating that AutoCad WS on Android can generate DWG files

    Does that tidbit you have quoted mention anywhere about AutoCAD WS being able to generate DWG files? AutoCAD simply allows you “to view, edit, and share your DWGâ„¢ files on your Android phone or tablet”. That’s all. The user reviews I have cited earlier also state clearly the fact that AutoCAD WS does not allow you to generate DWG files. Your resorting to downright untruth is simply not helping your cause here.

    Out of more than 1 million downloads, 4,150 gave it a 5* rating out of 6,563 reviews.

    Interesting factoid. Does that qualify AutoCAD WS as a substitute for the regular AutoCAD, though?

    Perhaps FT should describe how a programme that can edit DWG files cannot generate them. In what kind of file do the changes get put?

    I don’t need to describe it. The facts that AutoCAD WS lacks such a feature and that users have to experiment on workarounds using the regular AutoCAD say it all.

    They are called templates, folks, a standard way of getting a run at a new file/document.

    Or, as one of my cited sources describe, the only way to get AutoCAD WS to work with new files is to first generate several of them in the regular AutoCAD and then feed it to AutoCAD WS through an AutoCAD storage account. What a substitute!

    Consult those who have actually used the software. Hell, consult AutoCAD, the one producing the software. AutoCAD WS is in no way advertised or suitable as a replacement for the regular AutoCAD. Whatever you are claiming here is simply devoid of facts, and if you want to convince anyone of your proposition, you’ll need to try better than that.

    This programme can work from local copies too, so what’s the problem?

    Now you are just being both dishonest and obtuse. AutoCAD WS can only access copies from your AutoCAD workspace (hence “WS”) and nothing more. Without first accessing your online copies – as both of the cited reviews point out – you simply can’t work with any files.

    If, one way or another, I can create “hello, world” DWG files on the server, and edit / save from my smartphone running Android/Linux, there is no problem.

    This is provided that you have already got a copy of the regular AutoCAD and don’t mind other limitations of AutoCAD WS. Again, AutoCAD WS is not a substitute for AutoCAD and is never advertised as such.

    Typically, drawings within some organization will have some standard items such as company name, logo, title block etc. Put those in the template and there’s never a need to create an empty DWG file from the smartphone.

    Never mind the fact that you will still need to upload those templates to your AutoCAD account as separate copies in order for your smartphone to access them, or that you will still need AutoCAD in order to generate those templates. Again, the reviews I have cited describe pretty clearly the entire process of your workaround.

    You can tell that from their revenue and the obscene prices they charge. Simple division shows what a small share of PCs run AutoCad.

    And now AutoCAD obviously decide to roll out a competitive substitute for free just to destroy whatever income they have in that “small share”. Interesting logic, isn’t it?

  5. Clarence Moon says:

    It has been some two decades since I was directly involved in any way with CAD/CAM systems and the big names of the era were InterGraph and ComputerVision with their VAX and Unix based systems. They competed with IBM CADAM and Cotia for attention in what had been a mainframe business for a long time.

    I think that AutoDesk more or less snuck in and stole their lunch for day to day CAD drawings. I am sure that the Unix products will launch under Linux as it is essentially a Unix clone and it is no wonder that these things exist today, if only as modeling tools, but the drafting work is, I believe, about 100% AutoCAD.

  6. Ivan says:

    If it’s such a small and unimportant share, why the lengthy and defensive thread explaining how wonderful it is now that AutoCAD has a mobile Android application that is clearly designed to supplement that market?

  7. oiaohm wrote, “Autocad is only a very small fish in a big sea of tools in cad work.”

    Amen. You can tell that from their revenue and the obscene prices they charge. Simple division shows what a small share of PCs run AutoCad.

  8. oiaohm says:

    BRL-cad and NX(this is closed source commerical)is demanded used by some parties Clarence Moon. Both run faster on Linux. So where that will complete sooner will give you a competitive advantage at times by choosing Linux.

    At times cluster running over the models to check for design faults is required as well Clarence Moon.

    You are talking 3d Cad work. At times no matter OS you like you will be using Linux at times. Just so you are competitive for the bid at hand for number of hours required to Quality check the work.

    In cad work there are many commercial cads for Linux and many commercial cluster 3d object simulators that are also for Linux.

    Autocad is only a very small fish in a big sea of tools in cad work.

    Most of the commerical cad stuff for Linux is more expensive than the windows options. High quality results quickly they get to charge extra for.

    Autocad is basically entry level cad tool.

    Cad is one of those areas where Linux can win without question when meeting client requirements.

    Shocking right Autocad is not another photoshop. Its not the be all and end all in cad work. Even that some newbie level people think it is.

  9. Clarence Moon says:

    “Ask AutoDesk”

    Going back once more to the original premise of the thread, namely that “doubt about being able to do real stuff using */Linux” is a mistaken notion, I do not see where you have helped your case with this claim about AutoCAD WS used on a phone or tablet, or netbook/laptop, for that matter. The comments plainly show that actual users are not very enthusiastic overall and certainly are not contemplating using this product under Android as any viable substitute for a conventional Windows based AutoCAD workstation.

    I do agree with the unstated portion of your premise, which seems to be that one can get by with using Linux in almost any situation if the need arises using open source software and Linux OS. However, that is not really enough of a competitive advantage to ever change the landscape. As long as a user can do what needs doing with Windows, there will never be a reason to change to Linux.

    You yourself have an extreme dislike for Microsoft as a company and are willing to go through the effort to find adequate substitutes essentially out of spite, but that is not the attitude of the vast majority of consumers. The economic argument regarding Linux device prices being lower than those for Windows based devices does not prove out in practice and there is no other motivation available to spur change.

  10. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson you still have to go by the horid.

    Download file to smartphone use smartphone to rename it and send it back.

    Basically they did in create new document from existing as well on the autocad ws. Its an annoyance not a job stopper.

    Correct templates to start from are common and its not hard to have the templates on the phone or whatever other device to upload.

  11. If, one way or another, I can create “hello, world” DWG files on the server, and edit / save from my smartphone running Android/Linux, there is no problem. They are called templates, folks, a standard way of getting a run at a new file/document. This programme can work from local copies too, so what’s the problem? None at all, except in the imagination of FT.

    Typically, drawings within some organization will have some standard items such as company name, logo, title block etc. Put those in the template and there’s never a need to create an empty DWG file from the smartphone.

  12. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson really simple AutoCAD® WS cannot make blank new DWG files. But there are plenty of programs you can open up save a blank DWG file. Just when you want to create a new document copy and rename that file and upload.

    Really wonder how long until someone releases an android program that makes blank DWG files.

    FT like making a mountains out of a mole hills. The issue of poor pointer that only choice of device.

    AutoCAD® WS is not a bad bit of kit for what it is. But its not something I would be using day in day out for cad work.

    There are true issues with AutoCAD WS. So far FT has not pointed to one of them. Terms of Service is a critical one.

    Yes there are some cases I see projects that cannot use even full Autocad not due to cost but due to some of the legal fine print on the full product.

    DraftSight, BRL-cad and other Linux native solutions work better. BRL-cad has no fine print issues.

  13. Flying Toaster revised history with ” inability to generate DWG files”.

    That Toaster flies in the face of AutoDesk stating that AutoCad WS on Android can generate DWG files:
    “AutoCAD® WS is a mobile CAD application that gives you the freedom and flexibility to view, edit, and share your DWGâ„¢ files on your Android phone or tablet. AutoCAD WS mobile app offers a simplified, intuitive set of viewing, editing, and markup tools so you can work on your designs while you are on the go. Open drawings from email attachments, sync your files from the web, or upload drawings directly from AutoCAD software. Drawings can also be saved locally so you can work in the field without an Internet connection.”

    Out of more than 1 million downloads, 4,150 gave it a 5* rating out of 6,563 reviews.

    Perhaps FT should describe how a programme that can edit DWG files cannot generate them. In what kind of file do the changes get put?

  14. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon
    “Linux desktop, even loaded with Android, or a Windows workstation with full-blown AutoCAD, the choice is going to be Windows and Linux will always be rejected in that scenario.”

    Not all usage cases are the same. Blender rendering checking imports from Autocad yes the AutoCAD WS is good enough to see that hey blenders import system missed something like a huge gear.

    Its not that I particularly need Autocad to create documents.

    http://www.techdrivein.com/2011/08/8-best-cad-apps-for-linux.html Enough options exist to create DWG files. “inability to generate DWG files” is not a limitation on a Linux Desktop.

    What is the only job we need on Linux with AutoCAD WS for. Checking that the generated DWG files are exactly as we expect and will work also that DWG files have been properly imported into other programs for deeper assessments or milling or printing.

    Of course due to consideration of company secrets a windows box is still around to run AutoCAD. Not that it gets much us.

    Really lot shows people don’t know the field. The biggest selector is normally what solid model system you use. BRL-CAD runs faster and better on Linux. Solidworks is windows. Its the solid simulation you use that decides the cad. Blender has great water flow simulations also runs better on Linux.

    Simulators and Solid Modelling can see you on Linux looking for design faults before you produce the item. In some cases the cnc machines control software is Linux. So yes you do need to check the import.

    Autocad is mostly window dressing. There are plenty of different cads that can do Autocad job. Most of the reason to hold Autocad around was to check exporting to other locations.

    Clarence Moon I have mentioned doing 3d amimination before. I am not a day in day out autocad user. Never will need to be.

    Clarence Moon
    “I think that the discussion simply points out that using AutoCAD for generation of engineering drawings or the like is still not a thing that one can do with Linux.”
    This complete fact is not important. Will not matter if Adobe never ports full AutoCAD to Linux now. The Linux world is that far down the road to no longer requiring Autocad its not funny. Obsolete tech it will be very soon.

    Linux nature to clone over time can kill. Lot of closed source companies don’t understand the importance of preventing this by releasing Linux versions.

  15. Kozmcrae says:

    This business with AutoCad has stirred up a lot of interest in the Cult of Microsoft. They’re falling all over themselves trying to talk it down. Kind of similar to the Streisand effect.

  16. Kozmcrae says:

    “And of course you are an expert on asses Mr. K.”

    I’m becoming one.

  17. oldman says:

    “For 2D, people draw one line at a time and zoom makes that work even on a small screen.”

    Pog, as part of my job, I use Autocad 2009 on a regular basis to maintain machine room drawings for our datacenters. I’ve also had experience with the Autocad app in its iPad version. The simple fact is robert Pogson that Clarence Moon’s characterization of working with autocad on a tablet is dead on, though for my money that fact that one has to navigate around a large drawing with a small window is the true limiting factor. There is a reason that the desktop that regular users are equipped with large monitors (mine is a 30″ HD dell flat panel) – it is simply easier to keep track of your work.

  18. Flying Toaster says:

    Ask AutoDesk. They know their customers want the ability.

    AutoDesk never promotes AutoCAD WS as a substitute for its non-mobile equivalent, and you are the only person here making such a claim. If people have questions about that, it’s only reasonable that they come and ask you instead of AutoDesk.

    So, tell me – how are you supposed to substitute the regular AutoCAD with Linux and AutoCAD WS, despite its aforementioned limitations (including the lack of accuracy in line-drawing and the inability to generate DWG files) and all.

  19. Clarence Moon wrote, “if a person has to choose using a Linux desktop, even loaded with Android, or a Windows workstation with full-blown AutoCAD, the choice is going to be Windows and Linux will always be rejected in that scenario”.

    No. Ask AutoDesk. They know their customers want the ability. For 2D, people draw one line at a time and zoom makes that work even on a small screen.

  20. Clarence Moon says:

    The key word here is “generation”, Mr. Pogson. Now you have apparently never been a design engineer, like Mr. Oaiohm, on the boards creating these kinds of drawings. Taking a peek at one or even marking it up using a phone or tablet is indeed possible and AutoDesk seems to be touting it for on the go usage, but the massive job of creating a new drawing of any magnitude is far beyond the effective use of these mobile devices.

    Believe what you will, but if a person has to choose using a Linux desktop, even loaded with Android, or a Windows workstation with full-blown AutoCAD, the choice is going to be Windows and Linux will always be rejected in that scenario.

  21. Clarence Moon wrote, “I think that the discussion simply points out that using AutoCAD for generation of engineering drawings or the like is still not a thing that one can do with Linux. “

    Clarence Moon must not have watched the video. Clarence Moon must believe AutoDesk is falsely advertising their product. AutoDesk specifically states one can view/modify dwg files using Android/Linux.

  22. Clarence Moon says:

    Remember that the point of the blog was to allege that Linux is useful in AutoCAD situations and so Linux is not eliminated from consideration due to being unable to do one’s work.

    I think that the discussion simply points out that using AutoCAD for generation of engineering drawings or the like is still not a thing that one can do with Linux. One can, certainly, do some read-only sort of manipulation of the drawings using Android and that seems like a fairly significant use, albeit in very rare circumstances where the mobility is a major consideration.

    Some side issues are that Mr. Oiaohm shows his incredible range of virtuosity with claiming detailed use of AutoCAD as another of his daily tasks! Mirable dictu!

    Another trend here seems to be the slow walking of Linux discussions into Android discussions, with GNU/Linux morphing into Android/Linux and more recently */Linux to try to shine more of a glow onto the movement.

  23. Andrew says:

    Nevertheless, the trend is still on mobility:

    http://www.muktware.com/news/3281/6-reasons-why-windows-8-tablets-are-not-threat-android

    and microsoft may not be ready.

  24. oiaohm says:

    Its going to get interesting when Linux kernel 3.3 gets out there is currently enough in 3.3 it basically chroot Android on a normal Linux. 3.4 will be power side of Android. Wayland also will allow Android applications to be treated the same as old X11 applications on Linux. Basically just a window on screen next to other windows on the screen.

    Yes I am looking forward to the death of X11.

    This is when the idea that android is not Linux will kind hit the fan. So both ways will become possible.

    Like ubuntu in android now works. Also fun is the qemu binfmt patch in for arm on x86 works with android as well.

    Really I use AutoCAD WS in browser on Linux at moment. I would say it better than the ipad or the android solution. Ok android solution not bad if you have an android device that support usb host on the go so you can plug in a real mouse/tablet so you don’t have a pointer that is like a shot gun blast of pray where it hits.

    Flying Toaster and Oldman accuracy come from trying to use a finger to draw fine details. Very much like trying to put a nail into a wall to hang a picture frame on using a jack hammer instead of a proper hammer. If you are really careful and really lucky it might just work and not put a huge hole in the wall. Repeat that a few 1000 times and the wall does not stand a chance.

    Basically its not the AutoCAD WS at fault. Physical device limitations.

    Some Android devices I can connect a proper pointer to them. If you have a idevice stuff you are screwed there is no mouse or proper drawing tablet option.

  25. oldman says:

    “Come to think of it, you’re an ass anyway so go ahead, pretend I said what ever you wanted me to say.”

    And of course you are an expert on asses Mr. K.

    “What is it…? Oh yeah. Run along now sonny, the adults have serious business to attend to.”

    Perhaps some day you will be one Mr. K.

  26. Kozmcrae says:

    “you simply cannot access your files without a working Internet connection.”

    That would also make your mobile device useless. So what’s the point you are trying to make?

    “Its great for looking at documents on the fly.”

    That’s what I’m talking about. Why would anyone in their right mind try to edit a huge AutoCad file on a tiny mobile device? Just having access to view it would be a worthwhile feature in my opinion.

    “When you can produce an autocad drawing that you created on a phone using this app that I can open and view it.”

    You are an ass if you think anyone would try such a thing. I never even suggested that. Come to think of it, you’re an ass anyway so go ahead, pretend I said what ever you wanted me to say.

    What is it…? Oh yeah. Run along now sonny, the adults have serious business to attend to.

  27. oldman says:

    “Flying Toaster, you don’t use AutoCad do you? I don’t either but even I can see why someone would want access to their AutoCad documents on a mobile device. Think about it for 30 seconds. In your non-Microsoft brain that is.”

    As it happens I actually use autocad Mr. K. I’ve also used looked at the free app on an iPad. Its great for looking at documents on the fly. But as an editor it rapidly becomes useless the more complex your document gets. THis is if you think about it, this as it should be – Did you really think that autodesk was going to give away major functionality that people pay $3000. a pop for?

    “All the while they willful ignore the fact that it’s already on thousands of devices and people are using it.”

    I’ll tell you what my dear FOSSforBrains ( I would call you a FOSSt–d, but as you note it does insult the truly developmentally disadvantaged.) When you can produce an autocad drawing that you created on a phone using this app that I can open and view it. Then I will acknowledge my debt to FOSS as you wish.

    Interested?

  28. Flying Toaster says:

    “Flying Toaster, you don’t use AutoCad do you? I don’t either but even I can see why someone would want access to their AutoCad documents on a mobile device. Think about it for 30 seconds. In your non-Microsoft brain that is.”

    I have cited two reviews on this same application, and both of them point out the same problem that you simply cannot access your files without a working Internet connection. Such reviews are probably not as credible as your sheer, non-Microsoft imagination of something you never actually use, but I digress.

    Anyway, I doubt the same restriction applies to a regular AutoCAD install on a 13.1″ laptop. (Does such a laptop count as a “small” computer, by the way?)

  29. kozmcrae says:

    Yes Robert, but does it tie my shoe? 😉

    Flying Toaster, you don’t use AutoCad do you? I don’t either but even I can see why someone would want access to their AutoCad documents on a mobile device. Think about it for 30 seconds. In your non-Microsoft brain that is.

    So the word from the Cult of Microsoft is, “so what, it might have ‘X’ application but it’s obviously useless on a mobile device”. All the while they willful ignore the fact that it’s already on thousands of devices and people are using it. Which goes to show that you can lead a horse to water but you can’t stop him from pissing in it.

  30. Flying Toaster says:

    Correction:

    or AutoCAD -> or AutoCAD user

  31. Flying Toaster says:

    The app has been around as early as since 2010. Here is how one review describes it:

    “The biggest problem of all however is that it is nearly impossible to draw anything of any accuracy with the app. With no way of entering a dimension for a line you are forced to roughly drag the line until it is about the right length. About the right length, thats really useful.”

    And here is what another user finds out about the app:

    “You need to log-in everytime you use the app.”

    “You need to upload your files first to your AutoCAD WS account before you can able to edit or view it using the application.”

    “You can only edit existing files, but you can’t create a new file.”

    “Logging-in as well as opening a DWG can be frustrating because of the loading time.”

    “It lacks other basic options like cropping, dimensions, 0snap and hatch layers.”

    I ain’t no architect or AutoCAD, and thus I cannot vouch for the credibility of the claims. Nonetheless, this does raise the question as to how many of those 1 million reported downloads actually found their way into actual usage by the corresponding users.

Leave a Reply