Strange Things Found in Strange Places

I have never been to Viet Nam. Most of my knowledge comes from coverage of the Viet Nam war on television. I was looking at IDC’s news this week and found mention of tablet sales in Viet Nam and was curious. Interestingly, iPad is not leading there but Android/Linux has 60% share. Absolutely interesting is that “Linux” shows up at 1.3% share and that other OS is nowhere to be seen.

Admittedly it is a small sample but it shows GNU/Linux can thrive given the opportunity. The opportunity in Viet Nam and other emerging markets is that price/performance is absolutely vital. Profit margins for global corporations is the last thing consumers want to pump up. When people struggle to survive, GNU/Linux makes sense. It’s the right way to do IT. I recommend Debian GNU/Linux. I wonder what tablets in Viet Nam run?

Viet Nam certainly has no problem selling GNU/Linux. linux gets 1700 hits. Oh my! That’s a growing business: “November 2011, the business results of the company’s continued growth: sales companywide months reached 151.86 billion 11/2011 growth than 9.48% and profit before tax was 8.32 billion copper increased 16.36% over the same period last year”

Their channel is unusual, too, with telephone and e-mail orders.

The picture is likely similar in Philippines where netbooks are actually growing in market share.

“Price-sensitivity is still a major characteristic of the local retail market. According to Ng Juan Jin, Market Analyst for Client Devices Research at IDC ASEAN, “The popularity of mininotebooks is evidence of end users prioritizing affordability over more advanced specifications. The surge in shipments indicates that first time users are content with the functionality of mininotebooks. And, given the relatively low adoption rate of PCs and the large low-income segment in the Philippines, there is still growth potential for mininotebooks provided prices remain low relative to other competing IT devices.” Sequential and year-on-year growth rates for mininotebooks are at 29% and 36% respectively.”

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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48 Responses to Strange Things Found in Strange Places

  1. oiaohm says:

    “It is telling that you can be so arrogant about your careless treatment of your written words, Mr. Oiaohm. It shows that you are lazy in regard to presenting ideas clearly and concisely.

    As you admit, it is easy enough to use correct language, but you choose to cut corners and suggest that it is fine with you to do so.”

    Clarence Moon sorry no its not simple for me to use correct language. Using tools does not get my english 100 percent correct either. For work I have the resources of a technical writers at my disposal to proof and correct my documents. Of course that is only to be used when required for profit.

    Language bigot is Clarence Moon. A person should not be judged just by there language skill.

    The ones that know me over the last 10 years would tell you the english you are seeing me generate today is better quality than what I did 10 years ago. Yes sometimes the tools where making it worse.

    Yes the technical writers do demand to see before correction tools and after correction tools when I need to publish a report under 24 hours due to my known weaknesses.

    Side effect of dyslexia that I have is that it will mask out my means to see correction errors for 24 hours.

    Speed of posting here is faster than what I can on my own do good english at even with tools. That is a limit. Every one has limits Clarence Moon my just happens to be in language centre of brain.

  2. Kozmcrae says:

    Clarence, your split personality is beginning to show.

  3. Clarence Moon says:

    It is telling that you can be so arrogant about your careless treatment of your written words, Mr. Oiaohm. It shows that you are lazy in regard to presenting ideas clearly and concisely.

    As you admit, it is easy enough to use correct language, but you choose to cut corners and suggest that it is fine with you to do so. One is only left to wonder where cutting corners ends and attention to duty begins in your philosophy.

  4. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon most likely because you don’t get it.
    “I cannot imagine anyone with such a critical task assigned being, at the same time, so careless of their own image as to not bother to correct their written statements.”
    In my job I have to choose what to bother wasting time on.

    Producing perfect english written reports is not required. My job is a operational systems. Not to be a master of written English. You are a bigot Clarence Moon perfect english is not part of my job descriptions.

    Pidgin-like language is no mistake. That is getting close to what one of my second languages is. I used to bother correcting my english by third party programs until I had some trolls post as me on-sites. They have a very hard time coping my writing style so they get spotted most of the time. Yes you could call my style usage of english part image protection.

    So by Clarence Moon anyone with poor english cannot have a job in IT has to be a failure. Complete bigot living outside reality.

    Also something else I don’t post on hate sites these days. Techrights I am quoted. Techrights only quotes a segment of me. I am kinda famous to some of those people because of my statements. Not by my doing. I could careless about it. Mostly because its only part of what I am. You would notice in the IRC logs I get accused of being too moderate.

  5. Clarence Moon says:

    So now you are using your junk box systems to land airplanes or similar “life at risk” task? Pardon me while I snicker at that, Mr. Oiaohm!

    I cannot imagine anyone with such a critical task assigned being, at the same time, so careless of their own image as to not bother to correct their written statements. Your adaptation of pidgin-like language is obviously a charade, evidenced by your failure to do that in other venues. Go back to the other hate sites that you seem to frequent and pretend you are famous.

  6. oiaohm says:

    recovery time objective (RTO) is less than 1 hour for current running operations to be restored to at least some functionality at least enough to be safe.

    8 hours to be fully back on-line with full functionality if running 100 percent to plan.

    24 hours if not running 100 percent to plan for 100 percent restore.

    Worse this has to be achievable by the office secretary on site.

    1 hour is a outside number to have functionality partly restored. 1 min past 1 hour and its an ass kicking. Even at 1 hour sections of operations may not be proceeding safely.

    Internet services does not have to be restored inside the RTO. Internet Services is optional to sites. Basically internet services is not classed as a operation I really have to take care off. Windows forces this brought back on line inside 30 days.

    recovery point objective(RPO) this is more flexible. This is based on data requirement assessments. This is between 30 seconds and 30 days based on requirements. Yes the 30 seconds ones you end up with data logger storage multi units and other items.

    Current operating 99.99% 52.56 mins between 99.999% 5.26 minutes per year.
    Yes 1 outage in a operation takes us to limit.

    Also windows machines have to reboot to install updates also ruins uptimes unless we have surplus machines at locations.

    Goal is to get to 99.999 at some point. Ideal is 99.999 but that is hard to achieve particularly when you have to use on site staff that are not always IT skilled and particularly while sections are still running windows due to how much windows has been requiring reboots to install stuff. Hope Windows 8 has some of the reboot illness fixed.

    Basically I guess you are operating oldman with a 99.5% 1.83 days a year max? This is why you can wait for techs to come out to service something. Also why a old machine that works can be disregarded. Basically old machine that still works that can get us back on line is better than no machine and still off line.

    Yes the level I am operating makes me very picky on minor design errors oldman. Since those areas can ruin my numbers.

    Doing what I am doing even in city Linux starts looking good. 99.99 uptime without using FOSS is almost impossible. 99.999 basically forget MS Windows it not going todo it. Rebooting just to install updates is going to risk exceeding 99.999 let alone allowing for a hardware failure here or there. Ksplice is you best friend when you in 99.999 removing the need to reboot to update Linux kernel. So making only reboots infections and hardware failures.

    Clarence Moon just because something is outback does not mean I am not handling stuff that could turn dangerous quickly. Small bit of service outage in the wrong place can put some ones life at risk.

    I do have a better spelling and grammar checker on my desktop. Just I am not going to cut and past just for here. There is no grammar checker in web browser as far as I know. Its a nice missing feature. I have a rough spell checker in Firefox and Chrome. Really do you have a solution that is valid or were you just nit picking like a idiot Clarence Moon. Yes if you know of a good way to get a grammar checker in firefox or chrome I would be interested.

  7. Clarence Moon says:

    The world has become a poor place to be, I think, if even people stranded in the Australian outback cannot afford the small bit of time occasionally lost due to server outages. Mr. Oiaohm should be able to fill any such time profitably by using it to install a better spelling and grammar checker on his desktop.

  8. oldman says:

    “Ideal here is 99.999 percent uptime a year on every operation. This is way above what oldman has to deliver.”

    What are your RPO and RTO Sir?

  9. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon its not black or white either. Oldman has Linux based webservers. Even that he has Microsoft based desktops.

    Most business today are a mix between closed and open source. Most are not choosing one or the other but mixtures of both.

    Sometimes mixed in ways you don’t expect like citrix thin-clients that are Linux inside. Basically some businesses Linux is at every single workstation location but no one knows because they are running thin client to the central server.

    Basically the picture is not as straight forwards as you make out. Yes correct is the statement that some areas have no choice at all other than FOSS.

    This is something oldman has a problem accepting the fact there can be no choice but to use FOSS.

    Oldman failure to understand the costs of the MS solution also means he was not seeing how many people really fall into the camp of we must run FOSS or steal.

    Its quite a huge number that don’t have any other choice to be legal.

    The company I am working for could buy windows for every machine many times over. Clarence Moon cost of the software is not the issue.

    Downtime is the issue and the costs that will cause. Those exceed the software cost many times over. FOSS has tech advantages for rural like not needing internet or phones to work. Yes it possible in a few rural locations to be down to sat phones. Not something you are going to want to be using just to ring MS to activate something.

    Other major advantage is FOSS stuff still works on old hardware so if you find something too far past it for modern-day MS products it may still be suitable to get you out of trouble using a FOSS solution.

    Yes when up the creek rural being able to use as much hardware as possible is critical.

    Time todo phone activation is another issue. Downtime again.

    Yes I know is hard to accept for some people that Foss has some advantages big one is lack of requirement for activation.
    Basically the key list
    1) Lack of activation require to work.
    2) Runs on more hardware
    3) Easy to produce new current day disks.

    I could keep on going cost when it comes to rural is way down the list.

    government and education scenarios may fall into poorly funded. My rural does not. Well funded but not wasteful. You cannot afford to be wasteful when every bit of waste has to be shipped back at your expense. This is why crushing computers end of life comes in makes them smaller to ship back.

    For low downtime the company I am with does not have a choice Clarence Moon.

    That is the thing lot of people using FOSS have pressures that make Microsoft solutions not an option. There two major pressures. Cost and how much tolerance to downtime.

    Ideal here is 99.999 percent uptime a year on every operation. This is way above what oldman has to deliver.

  10. Clarence Moon says:

    Commercial purchases are the real test of a product’s value proposition. A business will buy or update a software package based on their belief that it has an effect on their business worth as much or more than it costs. While it is possible to find some businesses that have decided to go with FLOSS as a better way than Windows, MS Office, and the like, it is much more common to find them choosing the Microsoft and other commercial products.

    In most cases where FLOSS is picked, it is a Hobson’s choice of FLOSS or nothing at all since the organization is unable to afford the price of the commercial software. That is most notable for the rural government and education scenarios described here that are so poorly funded and thus driven to make do with FLOSS products.

  11. oiaohm says:

    oldman the fake reality is how much you think software costs. But I am not one of the people who are building offerings depend on it.

    Simple fact is you are not paying for the software so you don’t have a clue of cost. Person like me has to place costs in system designs.

    Cost of doing business does not demard spending a lot on MS.

  12. oldman says:

    “Working in education you are in the MS fake reality oldman. Get out in commercial where MS is not nice. You see what the real commericial terms are.”

    The cost of doing business sir, nothing more. As long as people valus the products built on Microsoft offerings, they will pay.

    And there is nothing that you can do about it!

  13. oiaohm says:

    “Would not software assurance have gotten them Office 2010 at zero cost? It did us.”
    Read the fine print software assurance is only good for a max of 3 years without paying for it. 3 years past the purchase date by by. So Munich under software assurance over the time frame would have had to pay again twice to keep software assurance going.

    This is a good plan english overview of the licensing.

    I think you better go and check what account paid oldman. Because 40 dollars for 3 years software assurance equals 120 dollar so far. 9 years that grows to 160 dollars so far.

    Or $1,440,000 for 12 000 machines so far. Note education rates are lower than general government. So we could basically say double that so far.

    If you are on Microsoft Select Agreement is end of life from July 1, 2011. So no more new contract so migration required. 40 dollars would be 40 dollars a year. I would hope you are not under this oldman.

    If you are on Microsoft Select Agreement you need to migrate to Open Value or Enterprise Subscription.

    Sorry oldman does not know licensing claiming SA lasts 10 years. Software Assurance only lasts 3 years.

    Robert Pogson if you are like me and understand MS licensing you would see that Oldman badly wrong here I know why as well it where he works.

    The reduced cost option Munich was offered was Microsoft Enterprise Subscription with costs worked out to 5 years. Yes another form of lease with yearly fee.

    8 years down the road MS first offer reduced by over 30 percent you might as well say is gone. 3 extra years would had to be paid on the software not in MS figures. And they got 30 percent less by only installing fragments of MS Office on machines.

    What oldman is most likely using is education/charity volume licensing. That stuff due to the licenses being not to be used for profit gets magical free extensions when ever MS is not selling enough copies of a product. Yes MS fudge numbers. I worked for a not for profit for a while working out this. They got weird letters with free donations of X value of software only to find out it was not a donation of more software but a renew of our existing for free.

    Working in education you are in the MS fake reality oldman. Get out in commercial where MS is not nice. You see what the real commericial terms are.

    Oldman spend the time and fully read and taken in that link I provided.

  14. Do the maths. If M$ were getting $4 per seat per annum their revenue for the client division would be 360 million X $4 or less, $1.4 billion. Instead they take in ten times that amount.

  15. oldman says:

    $40 US per seat for essentially 10 years of software

  16. So, how much did the volume licensing cost for two rounds of OS?

  17. oldman says:

    “And how much did SA cost your employer? Some people got Vista through SA and regretted it.”

    SA is a minor incremental cost on the volume license Pog.

  18. oldman wrote, “Would not software assurance have gotten them Office 2010 at zero cost? It did us.”

    And how much did SA cost your employer? Some people got Vista through SA and regretted it.

  19. oldman says:

    “MS plan would have seen them get MS Office 2003 so would require a update now or next version.”

    Would not software assurance have gotten them Office 2010 at zero cost? It did us.

  20. ARMed processors are produced in the billions annually. You have not stated a single reason that prevents them from intruding into the personal computing space. They run tablets. They can run any type of PC or server.

  21. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon
    “I would agree that a prolonged consumer education effort would convince a lot of people to accept Linux as a desktop OS, but no one is going to put out that effort for no good reason and the Linux vendors are not able to afford to do it themselves.”

    LOL LOL and more LOL.

    What is so funny. MS themselves does not convince anyone to use windows really so why do Linux vendors. Instead they give cheap stuff to schools and governments so for the 12 years of schooling you get to know MS products so convinced to use them.

    Yes there is prolonged pre consumer education going on. That prolonged pre consumer education is controlling the market.

    Munich as already removed MS Office from schools. When the first half of there migration completed. FOSS on Windows.

    What this proves is convince governments to use FOSS get FOSS in schools and get MS marketing in schools removed. The damage against MS has already started in Munich the convincing of new people to like FOSS has already started. Perfectly before they have even had a chance to compare the options.

    This is your problem I was not talking theory. But reality of what is going on in Munich. There will be a dip in MS Office usage just due to what has happened.

    FOSS on Windows has already saved Munich money. They have not had to update all those insanely out of date copies of MS office they had. And they have not had to update since. MS plan would have seen them get MS Office 2003 so would require a update now or next version.

    So claiming no saving is a idiot claim.

  22. Clarence Moon says:

    “Clarence Moon wrote, “Nobody voluntarily chooses to use ODF, and I mean nobody, on the grounds of its technical merits.””

    I think that your copy and paste buffer slipped a cog, Mr. Pogson, but the context of your remarks is clear enough. You say, perhaps accurately, that Chinese vendors could start manufacturing ARM based processor units at a high enough volume to meet potential mass market needs. But that takes a large investment in facilities and the investment money is not very likely to be forthcoming. Look at HP who I believe is the actual leader producer of desktop/laptop PCs and is seriously considering abandoning the business entirely as IBM has done previously. A shift of one CPU part to another is not going to materially affect the financial attractiveness of that product market.

    You have a notion, I think, that smart phones and tablets are essentially the same as PCs because they embed computing capability and are used for some purposes that overlap one another. I will never convince you that you are wrong, but I am sure that you have a wrong view of things that would never succeed in practice.

    It is likely that, someday, the PC will vanish as we know it and a host of specialized devices, phones, tablets, or something even newer than those, will replace all common use of PCs and PCs will be like telephones with a corded earpiece and a hand crank to alert an operator to connect you to a friend. Low power integrated circuits will be used, certainly, and the OS may be immaterial to the purpose at hand and no one will be buying Windows. But not this year, next year, or the year after.

  23. Clarence Moon says:

    The flaw in your argument, Mr. Oiaohm, is that no one is doing what you propose might be theoretically possible. I would agree that a prolonged consumer education effort would convince a lot of people to accept Linux as a desktop OS, but no one is going to put out that effort for no good reason and the Linux vendors are not able to afford to do it themselves.

    Periodically, it seems, someone gets a wild idea to push Linux as a big cost savings and almost always comes to a fiasco like Munich. Claim all you want that Munich is a success and they will reap the benefits for years to come, but a) they are not done even yet and b) they haven’t apparently saved anything yet, and c) the future is likely to be as much of a driver for change as it has always been.

    Meanwhile, their kitchen has been torn up for 8 years and they are living in a constant sea of change. Others are not following them in any great way and there are just as many anecdotes around about government groups giving up on Linux migrations.

    There is no trend now and no trend is forming.

  24. oiaohm says:

    “Governments with the Education force no longer supporting Microsoft”

    Clarence Moon really the reason is straight forwards.

    Mostly because I live in a country where to do business with the government you have had to run Windows. Government can force you to use a particular OS so you can do tax returns and other things. Yes its insane todo my tax return I can write off a copy of windows and a virtual machine to run it in.

    Munich could force users to run Linux to do particular operations with the government if they don’t run Linux they cannot submit legally required payments so are screwed. Government has means to use force so you have no option bar to run what they want at least in token amounts. This can be simply just not to fight it.

    Education “All I can tell is that it says that Windows can be displaced if customers quit buying it.”
    Teaching windows and MS Office people buy what they know how to use or have someone they know who can use it. So yes Education is direct software marketing. You want to write a letter a long time ago when word perfect here was taught in schools people would say word perfect. Today they say MS word and in Munich they are going to say writer in future. Direct change in what comes to the person mind first todo a task is changed by education.

    Education kills off future customers. Since they will not be thinking MS products first. So the result of change in Education is that less people will buy MS products in that area long term. Direct effect.

    Yes both Education and Government are very powerful modifiers. Education takes away the next generation of people to use your product. Government has the stick to force people to use a different product against their will. Both as one can hurt a software company/any company massively.

    IBM did one of the Linux bids to Munich for the conversion. Munich was a rarity Munich education and existing staff got the right to place a bid as well. The external payments don’t leave Munich.

    So yes Munich is a case that none of the big boys won the bid. 3 years over no big boys in the game not bad at all.

    Clarence Moon wrote, “Nobody voluntarily chooses to use ODF, and I mean nobody, on the grounds of its technical merits.”
    Tell that to the Australian national achieves and most other National achieves around the world the 2 long term storage formats are ODF and PDF globally agreed.

  25. Clarence Moon wrote, “Nobody voluntarily chooses to use ODF, and I mean nobody, on the grounds of its technical merits.”

    Wrong. More units based on ARM were shipped in 2011 than x86. There is lots of capacity to ship. All they have to do is add some more USB connectors, a display connector and they are good. That would take a motivated Chinese designer a few weeks to develop. Prototyping takes a few weeks more and they could be in production in a few months. That’s what the real world has been doing with ARM and Android/Linux for a year or longer now. One of the advantages of small cheap computers is that anyone can design and build one with standard components in short order. Prototyping systems are available off the shelf. How much time does it take to add a USB hub?

    There are plenty of products available, TrimSlice for instance. I would bet they could ramp up production in China in a few months if they wanted. People are not paid extra for taking longer to design one of these. They hurry.

    There are OEMs all over the world shipping GNU/Linux.

  26. Clarence Moon says:

    There is quite a lot of things that “prevent the success of Android/Linux or ARM from spilling over into the desktop/notebook space”, Mr. Pogson. One major element is the cost of ramping up a product line to compete in a market where you have to deliver millions of units. It has taken suppliers such as Dell and HP decades to build up to that level. Another major element is the loss of previous investment in binary forms of popular products deemed essential by many people for their computing needs. Again users have 20 years experience with Windows and its applications that is not going to be tossed away lightly.

    Do you not believe that Microsoft and Wintel will work to compete with ARM and Linux in this market as well? Consider that someone with such a product is going to have to do some massive education effort to convince consumers to take a chance on ARM the next time that they go to buy a computer. That promotional cost has to be subtracted from whatever you think might be savings from using ARM in lieu of Intel and Linux in lieu of Windows.

    Then it is a simple matter for Microsoft or Intel to simply adjust their pricing to take lower profits in order to cover any remaining cost advantage that the ARM product might have. Such slim pickings are not going to get OEMs to invest the billions of dollars needed to build manufacturing facilities as needed for millions of such products that will be so difficult to sell without spending billions more for advertising.

    There is nothing stopping OEMs from moving to Linux today other than those same things, namely lack of consumer understanding that results in a reluctance to take a chance and the lack of a manufacturing infrastructure to supply the devices. Those with the billions in capital to make such a move are not offered any clear path to profits to recover that capital. It is far mre attractive to just stay with the status quo and not risk their businesses.

    Since the OEMs are not crazy, what you are looking for will never happen.

  27. Clarence Moon says:

    “That’s why Dell, HP and M$ all have specialists to deal with those markets.”

    That is very true, Mr. Pogson, and I am intimately familiar with the ways that my own company deals with the US and foreign government purchases. I have been involved first hand with the preparation of sales proposals for such software. One thing that I know for sure is that it is not doable on a shoestring. Major government purchases have extensive specific performance requirements that cannot be met by an unicorporated or small business.

    There are very few companies that can even bid on many such projects and Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, CA, are Symantec frequently have to partner with one another or other, specialized companies such as where I work, in order to prepare an overall responsive bid.

    When it gets down to bid acceptance, it is almost never a surprise as to who got the business since someone is likely to be “wired in” because of previous projects or from having influenced the selection criteria.

    It may be a factor for some proposed project to require the use of open source software where it is feasible, but it is almost certain that the same project will demand various levels of compliance with the buyer’s existing systems and that is where the commercial products become mandatory.

    When it comes to delivery acceptance of software sold under these bid specifications, it is up to the using agency to decide as to whether or not the product meets specifications. Since any commercial company with good sense will have involved the people from the buyer agency from the start, all the decisions are already “owned” by the customer and sign-offs are easily obtained.

    FOSS organizations, such as Apache, do not have the ability to bid directly and there is no actual requirement to consult with them on commercially bid projects. Unless you have a special situation, such as at Munich, where there is some individual in the buyer organization that can pull strings and be a pain, such policy decisions are going to give way to practical necessities every time.

    Most commercial companies that bid on such projects have experience with their customers and know who is likely to be a problem child and who is likely to be a reasonable “partner”. Bid estimates, which become contract terms, are set accordingly. If I had a know grump such as must have existed with Munich, I would provide a compliant bid, but the price would not be so low as to put my company in danger due to delays and likely would not be near as competitive as it would be if the customer were know to be more tractible.

  28. Clarence Moon wrote, “Until the day comes that PCs are no longer a staple, though, Microsoft will dominate the PC OS market”.

    That is not at all obvious. Nothing prevents the success of Android/Linux or ARM from spilling over into the desktop/notebook space. M$’s move into mobile is defensive, to delay the inevitable decline, not to take over the world. As we have seen on servers and mobile, FLOSS has advantages everywhere in IT. OEMs less dependent on M$ will have more freedom to move into GNU/Linux on x86.

  29. Government and education are huge purchasers of IT, Clarence. That’s why Dell, HP and M$ all have specialists to deal with those markets. Government and education both have issues other than supporting Wintel. They want to provide value for money to taxpayers and to educate youth. Those can be done better with FLOSS than without. Governments and educators sometimes buy retail but they can and do make wholesale deals. Any OEM will produce a product to the customer’s specifications if the quantity is large enough and governments do request FLOSS: Brazil, Russia, India, China, parts of Spain and France and recently, UK. There are others but I don’t want to hunt them down. There are more than 200 governments and they do discuss issues like e-government, open standards, FLOSS and the like. That’s a channel M$ cannot plug. They try though.

    For many purposes GNU/Linux is superior to that other OS: being able to distribute copies freely to parents, students, isolated communities and schools, support locally etc. Then there is the fact that FLOSS has much less irrelevant stuff like re-re-reboots, phoning home, malware,… On price/performance GNU/Linux wins every time. That is a market force and although the market is huge and the force is small momentum is building to go in a different direction. Governments and education are often first adopters for various regions and they do have power/influence over huge populations. They matter, a lot.

  30. Clarence Moon says:

    “Governments with the Education force no longer supporting Microsoft”

    Perhaps someone will elaborate on this? All I can tell is that it says that Windows can be displaced if customers quit buying it. That seems too banal even by Mr. Oiaohm’s standards. Somehow “government” and perhaps “Education” are important modifiers, but there is no hint of how that might be.

    Microsoft is not above market forces, but they are certainly in an advantageous position in regard to them. The main factor is market inertia that causes things to stay the way they are in the absence of any compelling force for change. For PCs, there is nothing new on the horizon. Windows will continue to run on every computer on the shelf at the local emporiums as it has for the past 20 years.

    Products on the shelves come with Windows and have come with Windows as long as anyone can remember. There is nothing that Linux can provide that people believe is new, innovative, or in any way superior to Windows functionality. Wax all you want about past problems with Windows and sneer about blue screens and other things that have long ceased to be concerns for people buying new computers. None of that affects the buyer’s attitude today.

    The market forces indeed operate, but they operate in Microsoft’s favor.

  31. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon
    “There is nothing possible in any scenario for it to displace Windows in the PC product market.”
    There is one scenario that can displace MS.

    Governments with the Education force no longer supporting Microsoft. This will cause MS downfall even if the PC remains just not Windows.

    This is the problem Clarence Moon MS is not above the market forces they can be displaced just like anything else.

  32. Clarence Moon says:

    Microsoft’s “next” product is likely as not to be Windows 8, followed by Windows 9, and so on. Perhaps some day there will be no buyers for anything remotely resembling a PC and the Microsoft era will have disappeared, just like the bison from the plains or the railroads from Grand Central Station. Time indeed marches on and there is no stopping it.

    Along the way, of course, I think that fortunes have been made from slaughtering bison to running trains to selling OS for PCs. That is quite enough of an achievement, I think. Most companies never get so far as Microsoft has in terms of universal use and high regard.

    Until the day comes that PCs are no longer a staple, though, Microsoft will dominate the PC OS market. I am certain that Linux will never rise above its current level of use there. There is nothing possible in any scenario for it to displace Windows in the PC product market.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon my problem is what is MS next product going to be. The Axe of FOSS and Openhardware is slowly killing it. You cannot give product away forever and make no profit. FOSS is making a profit in code improvements not direct money. But there is still profit to FOSS just one you don’t see 100 percent in direct cash.

    Munich also is showing that large sections of MS current market could also break away from them. Yes that is not going to fail is worst kind of nightmare.

    The reality of a free enterprise in a competitive market is slowly catching up with Microsoft.

    As with any company in trouble they do stack of stupid things to try to make themselves look like the good guy and end up dieing. Think Sun Micro-systems. History shows us exactly where Microsoft is currently heading.

    Linux is moving slowly on the desktop but it does not need to move fast.

  34. oiaohm says:

    I should be more direct Clarence Moon Gates foundations with Microsoft freebies. Line up with when the 20 dollar computer was made. Of course its that crappy that it cannot run Linux. It was and is a 8 bit computer. Something like the old XT machines we had in the developed world. This is the problem 30 million dollars should be able to provide 1.5 million people with access to 5,000 book library on there tv without requiring internet connection. Of course each generation of this tech for 20 dollars should provide people with more.

    Microsoft is reacting to pressure from the FOSS world.

    Clarence Moon MS must get them addicted now before they might choose a different development path completely.

    Of course most people are not aware the wikipedia is downloadable and usable without a internet connection.

    30 million to build conventional libraries with conventional internet is to stop what FOSS would is up take if MS can.

    MS is on a battle for it life in the third world. If the third world end up with a computer that is quite suitable for 20 dollars what is that going todo to MS bottom line. Long term completely nuke it.

    We are in the race to the bottom. At the bottom commercial software has a hard time living.

  35. Clarence Moon says:

    If Microsoft has to give something away because it is no longer possible to charge for it due to competitive pressures, that is just the workings of free enterprise in a competitive market. Microsoft will just have to find something else to promote and sell, as they have done for nearly 30 years. It is called “product marketing”.

  36. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon reason for all the freebies is to stop the process of FOSS addiction.

  37. Kozmcrae says:

    “But just what is it that Gates felt that people would be addicted to?”

    Why don’t you ask him.

  38. Clarence Moon says:

    But just what is it that Gates felt that people would be addicted to? It seems to me that Gates was offering the means to pirate access to software that people found to be useful as well as easy to understand. Since the people would find that usage strongly attractive and thus addictive, they would become determined users of Microsoft products.

    The same thing could happen to the same people if they were similarly attracted to trying FLOSS products and subsequently found them to be useful and easy to understand as well. Sadly, that has not been the case to-date, either because not enough effort has gone into informing people of the good news about FLOSS or else the people have not found FLOSS so addictive. Perhaps, also, it could be some combination of both.

  39. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon FOSS is working closely with a lot of governments providing what they need. Sorry this is FOSS tech Clarence Moon.

    Less money having large and more life saving results.

    You have to be able to afford the parts to repair the broken PC. I was referring to outback Australia when it common to see computers dead due to no tech or no parts. Again what is in money. is a foundation you need to get to know.

    Clarence Moon a library is worthless if you cannot read. A library is worthless if you are dead.

    Most critical areas that foss is working on are items like mesh phones. So that people can run up and call for help this does improve life expediency major-ally far more than a internet connection or library can.

    Shocking little fact Clarence Moon 25 percent of the population of the developed world have never been on the internet. Not even once. Yet they get by quite fine. It not life critical tech. Most people visit the library less than once per year even before internet.

    Out of FOSS world comes project that are developing free to print text books for education. Yes lot of open source text is out there now for education. So they can locally print the books they need and they can update any error in there books.

    Think about it Clarence Moon do you need computers to educated people. Answer no. Books and something to write on both don’t require the buildings powered. Do you need internet to educate people again no. Internet is something that is only useful once you can read and write really and understand basic stuff.

    Simple fact in a lot of places the foundations using FOSS tech are achieving far better results Gates Foundation on lower budgets.

    Also something that a person has paid for themselves they are more likely to look after and not abuse them. Really there are many ways to make printing presses. Right down to the most primitive caving into wood tablets.

    Long term solution is not a long solution if they cannot afford to maintain it.

    eastmeetswest given 30 million for that country would have done a lot better job with it.

    You have the dumb idea that FOSS is not working its but off helping people. In fact it working on teaching those people in those countries so they can take care of themselves and providing groups like eastmeetswest with the kinds of tech they request.

    “Even if the opposite were true, the starved and dying man needs the immediate sustinence rather than some long term cure.”
    That is the mistake of the gates foundation. What gates foundation is giving is not immediate sustenance to the critical areas. True education. Communications by something like a phone beats a library for keeping people alive so they have a chance to learn.

    Yes lot of those new libraries the people in those areas don’t have phones to call for help. Good percent of the people cannot read either. So really what value are they. 30 million in white elephants.

    Now the stuff gates foundation has done on medical research for illnesses that they say have not been researched have been funny. Most of the diseases they are referring to as not that researched are researched by Australian CSIRO somewhere in Australia. Mostly as part of board protection. I would also suspect you would find china researching how to treat them as well. In fact I know they are. There are a few joint CSIRO and China projects over common threats.

    Funny enough Australia has mutated strains of most of the nasty population killing diseases around the world. Mostly less harmful. So Australia is studies those other diseases in a hope of dealing with our own problems. Yes we have a relation to rabies that does not turn you all bite bite but still make you run in fear from the sound of running water. So close of a relation that rabies anti-drugs treat it.

    Australian government funded no cash from gates foundation.

    North of Australia it was critical to get on top of this. malaria can be spread in sections of Australia if one of our population of mosquito got infected again. Yes Australia did have malaria in our history. So spray resistant and other issues worry us. 2025 is when gates foundation thinks they will have a cure.

    As you can see by current trials Australia is attempting for in the next 5 years. Hopefully the final product will be placeable in a plant they can grow locally no shipping. This has been done with some other diseases in near by countries to Australia.

    Yes a lot of what the gates foundation is duplication. There are some good items by the gates foundation but there are a lot that are waste of time.

    Funding USA area to research malaria was stupid they are not close enough to the problem and don’t have a vested interest requirement to cure it. Australia we have a critical reason to cure it. Because if we don’t cure malaria we will get infected with the evil again.

    Basically just because someone is handing out free cash does not mean they are doing the right thing. Clarence Moon the important thing is that the money is given in the right form to the right people.

    Lot of cases Gates Foundation is not going to be the one providing long term solutions. Other third parties are going to take the over since they are far more developed dealing with the problems properly.

  40. Clarence Moon says:

    There are a lot of platitudes that would apply here beyond the pap that is served up by the above. It is also rather arrogant of the poster to suggest that Vietnam today is so backward that they cannot repair a broken PC.

    In any case, the notion of teaching someone to be self-sufficient rather than lending an immediate helping hand in relief totally misses the point. The library project is indeed the sort of investment that is expected to make Vietnam even more self-reliant than they are today. Even if the opposite were true, the starved and dying man needs the immediate sustinence rather than some long term cure.

    FOSS is a means to an end, to be sure, but the idea of educating the population to take care of themselves appears to be the only way available to its advocates. In contrast, the largesse of the Gates Foundation can both provide the long term solution as well as immediately alleviate problem conditions. That is a far better situation.

  41. @FatMax, Amen. One can much more efficiently come to the conclusion that M$ is the wrong way to do IT when one realizes the motivations of the founder. To me BillG and his gang are the same as drug dealers operating in the parking lot of a school. We do not allow that and we should not allow M$ to operate in our schools, homes and offices enslaving whole societies.

  42. FatMax says:

    “They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.”

    –Bill Gates

  43. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon the issue is providing appropriate technology. Something you learn in the Australian outback. Modern day washing machine forget it it will not be repairable some of the old design are perfect out there. Same with wood powered hot-water systems made from old gas bottles. Appropriate is affordable it works and they can take care of it and make more.

    Is there going to be another grant when that hardware dies of old age or lack of techs to repair. Basically is 30 million bucks on what could be a short term fix.

    Software used is a short term fix. FOSS focus is affordable tech. and are about affordable tech and there are other projects as well.

    760,000 users. 30 million investment in appropriate tech the people would have a chance of affording to buy for themselves you could have given out 1 million units. So got to more than 760 000 users.

    Its sad to see money used poorly. Even better appropriate tech the people of the area would have been able to expand the number of units on the ground so get access to more people.

    Clarence Moon it the old one giving a person a loaf of bread will feed the for a day. Teach them how to make bread feed them forever.

    The gates foundation in this case is handing out loafs of bread instead of teaching them how to make bread.

    Teaching them how to make bread is not a profitable because long term they don’t need you. Also you don’t need as large of seed capital. Reason the people can afford to acquire the tech themselves.

    True idea of give them the skills how for ever is this project.

    Yes FOSS is not just worried about computer skills. FOSS is worried about people have access to the machines they need.

    Ideal world for FOSS is the means to give a small country the means to make there own computers.

  44. Clarence Moon says:

    It seems rather lame to be complaining that the Gates Foundation is doing something despicable by giving the Viets $30 million bucks to buy hardware and getting their pals at Microsoft to give them the software for free.

    It is a free world, after all, and the FLOSS advocates could just go ahead and match the grants and give out FLOSS software themselves if they wish instead of whining about what Bill Gates is doing on his own. I bet the Viets would welcome the gesture. You all should just put up a wiki somewhere to solicit all the giving folk in the Linux community to donate.

  45. oiaohm says:

    Kozmcrae call that USA arm bending. Internally Vietnamese government is very foss. It shows up in some of the wikileaks cable gates documents.

    Yes have a MS contract for anti-piracy or risk being excluded. Yes nice free software from Microsoft.

    Lot of what is going on there is pure despicable. Gates foundation is self does not do anything directly wrong. But you don’t see the Gates foundation doing any projects using FOSS. Instead runs back to Microsoft for a freebie for now. Nice timing to make it appear that they were willing deploying MS software.

    Also it spin the agreement the goverment signed was a renew of along with a pack of MS freebies.

    MS is treating Vietnamese how they use to treat china.

  46. Kozmcrae says:

    I can’t remember where I read it but it was within the last 6 months that Microsoft had made a deal with the Vietnamese government to supply all their IT needs (just government offices). It could have been Microsoft BS PR. That’s all I know about it.

  47. Kozmcrae says:

    It’s my understanding that Microsoft has its self thoroughly ensconced in Viet Nam’s government.

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