What To Do With the Last Desktop PC

In response to a troll demanding to know who had given up his desktop PC for a smart phone or tablet, one wizard replied,
“First you’ll get a lot of users who never even touched the PC. There are about 1.5 billion PCs in the world and more then 5 billion mobile phones… which are quickly replaced with smartphones. Yet in reality sales of smartphones have just barely overcome sales of PCs – but they are still growing fast.

Next you’ll have all the apps ported to smartphones/tables. This stage is starting already but it’ll be few more years till you’ll be able to actually ditch the PC – and keep all the apps.

And then finally users will start abandoning the PC – because it’s more-or-less useless for most users at this point.”

So, the desktop PC is not dead but it’s standing on the edge of a cliff overlooking irrelevance. So many uses of IT do not require a desktop PC these days that it’s not a question of whether but when they will be replaced.

Look at this image I prepared for a conference:

There isn’t anything in there but the CPU and RAM that really needs any size at all. The PSU can be replaced with a brick a few cm3 in size. Everything on the motherboard can go on the chip and there’s no need for any drive, just a USB connector and a video connector. All the rest is wasted material, space, weight and future garbage. The tiny ARM CPUs that can run on USB power have now reached 2.5gHz and quad core and an entire system will fit in your hand.

So, the last desktop PC should be used only where more local processing power and data storage are needed by the user. Those should be few applications like audio/video production.

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88 Responses to What To Do With the Last Desktop PC

  1. oldman says:

    “Really this is part of your lack of professionalism oldman. That you now acting like you did not even know.”

    I did not know sir, and your insults will now cease.

    Period.

  2. oiaohm says:

    oldman
    –SO Dr. Loser et. al. are wrong in referring to you derisively as “Ohio Ham”?–
    Because he was insulting me by calling me someone I was not you copied how foolish of you. Normal tradition of trolls from Linux Hater blog you don’t know right oldman. Someone says something something the trolls at Linux hater blog don’t like they create a new user who says bogus stuff the bogus stuff guy was “Ohio Ham” who complete job was to follow me site to site even into IRC and insult me. Making fun of my dyslexia and other things heck even insulting my sexuality. Basically complete scumbag that you were calling me. A person with no professional ethics at all.

    Really this is part of your lack of professionalism oldman. That you now acting like you did not even know.

    Next time you see someone doing something stupid to someone’s handle don’t copy them oldman. Every time you did it was a direct insult to me. So you were not deserving of respect. A troll being a prick I expect. Someone saying they should be respected should not make a mistake like this ever.

    Of course every time you used that insulting handle made me pissed off with you. So far more likely to respond nasty.

    A true pro should know never “derisively” treat anyone no matter how much they annoy you. I lost my cool before. You have a lot to earn back oldman to be worth respect. I am a very fair person. At least this time you have admitted mistake. Just don’t let me see you making the mistake to me or anyone else and in time I will forgot.

    oldman
    “In point of fact I have done my time pottering with little and not so little stupid utilities on the linux desktop. I have spent time working around missing features so that I can accomplish the same task that I accomplish now without extras.

    And even where a useful FOSS tool exists, it is more often than not available under windows.”

    When how far back oldman. Notice you admit useful FOSS tools exist and are not available under windows.

    There are not always closed source or equal replacements under windows at all.

    Phenom
    “In Office 2010, I simply click insert screenshot, and select the Window I want, regardless of the desktop it is on. Screenshot gets inserted automatically. Two mouse clicks. Job done. Even copy and paste are out of the picture, let alone saving to a file and all other dubious advantages you have in mind.”

    Its three mouse clicks using kscreenshot as well. Saving picture to file as a jpg has advantage over Office 2010. Smaller final files.

    The printscreen buttons are faster than the insert menu inside Office 2010. So it equal time or less where I work.

    How about if you don’t require the full window but just need a region of it.

    Next advantage if I need the image a few copies copy paste with kscreenshot I can paste many copies into the document or documents simply. Again this depends what you are working on.

    As soon as you need a second copy of the image MS Office 2010 starts showing a issue as well.

    Also you have a chance to look at what you have clicked on before you insert it with kde way and if your insert point is in the wrong place a chance to correct when you get to paste with the kde way.

    More human compatible path reading down a document hey that might need a screen shot. Go look at application and decide at that point.

    This is the workflow I am using. I go look at the window and decide what form of screenshot I need. Do I need a full window a full desktop or a part window. Or even a freehand capture this can be a case of needing to remove confidential information from screen-shot.

    Heck when I see the window I might decide it really don’t need one.

    This is the problem with the Office 2010 you have making the choice you need a screenshot before you have directly looked at what you are thinking of taking a screenshot of.

    MS Office 2010 workflow does not suit me at all. Most who get use to the other workflow it does not suit them either. When you know what size you screenshot will be you can also decide were to place it better as well. So producing a better looking final document.

    Few extra clicks better order of operation. Less cases of screenshot over kill in documents. Ie best order look at what thinking to screenshot, decide to get screenshot then place in document.

    Not from document pull in a screenshot that most likely placed badly and the wrong size or worse the wrong window that you have to delete because you clicked on the wrong window.

    Yes a few deletes you start going backwards to the MS Office 2010 method quickly.

    Remember the tortoise and the hare. Does not matter if something is slightly fast if by being slightly faster you have a higher error rate.

    kscreenshot is designed to block user mistakes from capturing the wrong thing. So is the tortoise method.

  3. pogson says:

    I have not seen any problems that GNU/Linux cannot solve. Even market share on the desktop is still growing.

  4. pogson says:

    That may be true in some cases, oldman, but you will keep having to update that commercial software, spending an infinite amount of money on it even after you find it. With FLOSS you don’t have to keep paying. That means over a long enough period of time FLOSS always wins.

    e.g. Suppose you have M$’s office suite running and elect not to search for a FLOSS alternative. You pay again each time M$ forces an upgrade, say, every five years. For your working lifetime, say 40 years, that is 8 X the licensing fee, more than $1000. It costs far less than $1000 to download, install and create a few documents and examine a few documents with LibreOffice. There are no reinventions required. LibreOffice works more or less the way M$’s office suite did a few years ago, meaning little or no retraining.

    So, oldman’s argument fails if considered over the long term. That is a mistake many make:
    “We’ve been using it a long time so it’s best to continue.” or “It costs $x per instance per year, which is small.”

    Taken over a long time or over many products the logic fails. I have been in schools who made both those mistakes. One had a library of software which they had spent too much acquiring so they could not afford to replace it and acquire new hardware so they were condemned to dying technology to the bitter end. Life is so much better with FLOSS.

  5. oldman says:

    Lets try that again…

    and I would submit based on my experience that the time I save NOT having to reinvent even a small wheel winds up paying for the commercial software that I use.

  6. oldman says:

    “I can also use APT to find apps in a second: apt-cache search something|grep something”

    Why limit myself to crapt or some repository. I can use google to find not only apps but descriptions of those apps, and if I am lucky how-tos with examples just as quick Pog. The real issue is spending the time to evaluate test and compare applications.

    This is IMHO time wasted if you already have a working solution in commercial closed source software as I do, and I would submit based on my experience that the time I save NOT having to reinvent even a small wheel is eventually cheaper then just paying for the commercial software.

  7. Phenom says:

    Great, just move the goalpost, define a new problem to replace the one you can’t quite solve, and declare your solution the winner.

    Quite typical in linux land. 🙂

  8. pogson says:

    oldman wrote, “The reality is sir that it is far simpler and less time to build on the core of a windows based environment than it is to acquire and maintain a myriad set of little tools to bring linux up to snuff in the areas where it is lacking.”

    apt-get update;apt-get upgrade is as simple as it gets and takes less time than upgrading all the apps on that other OS. Acquisition is as easy as apt-get update;apt-get install foo. I can also use APT to find apps in a second: apt-cache search something|grep something

  9. pogson says:

    A click is how much time? 0.1s for some people. For me it’s 0.3s. I can afford that as can most people. This is not an issue of productivity, can be scripted if necessary, and I get the benefit of a saved image for other uses. LibreOffice has a clipart gallery which can be scripted so insertion of an image can be a single click. I can save as many images as I want in a folder, import that into the clipart tree, point LibreOffice at the tree and add photos in one click per photo. My one click trumps your two and I still get to keep my library of images.

  10. Phenom says:

    Pogson, you resolve yourself back to the old good YouDontNeedThat(tm).

    I read your links, and nothing changes the fact that I have to switch to another applicaton (keystoke or mouse click), do some stuff there (a couple of clicks), then go back to Office and paste the screenshot there.

    In Office 2010, I simply click insert screenshot, and select the Window I want, regardless of the desktop it is on. Screenshot gets inserted automatically. Two mouse clicks. Job done. Even copy and paste are out of the picture, let alone saving to a file and all other dubious advantages you have in mind.

    This is less clicks which get the job done perfectly well, and no explanations “yes, but you can do it better with more clicks” will change that.

  11. oldman says:

    “Oldman MS ways of doing things are not the most effective you find this out once you do truly use a Linux desktop for a while. When you return to Windows you start going ok this should be instant what it not.”

    In point of fact I have done my time pottering with little and not so little stupid utilities on the linux desktop. I have spent time working around missing features so that I can accomplish the same task that I accomplish now without extras.

    And even where a useful FOSS tool exists, it is more often than not available under windows.

    The reality is sir that it is far simpler and less time to build on the core of a windows based environment than it is to acquire and maintain a myriad set of little tools to bring linux up to snuff in the areas where it is lacking.

    “I have tollerated this long enough ether from now on oldman you are oldtwit until you stop calling me MR HAM. MR HAM is in fact a completely different person. I have been tolerant.”

    SO Dr. Loser et. al. are wrong in referring to you derisively as “Ohio Ham”? That is where I got the nym from and to be blunt, I use it because my respect for you is probably as low as your respect for me. Furthermore, I don t give a tinkers fart about your tolerance and patience sir. And frankly you have called me far worse than oldtwit, so that does not bother me.

    THis having been said, it occurs to me that this whole increasingly poisoned exchange between us is not only getting out of hand, but prosecuting it on Pog’s blog is being disrespectful of Pog.

    So Oiaohm, it is sir, in the name of civility and out of respect for Robert Pogson.

    At the same time I would also suggest that one step towards civility would be if you keep you insults about my expertise to yourself.

  12. oiaohm says:

    oldman Really bias as normal. Really define missing.

    Implemented in a different way with more control is not missing. Being able to use klipper and kscreenshot off the start line has advantages that I have to rebuild when I am on Windows oldman.

    klipper and kscreenshot are both are fairly small programs same with the gnome equal oldman.

    The pair is working customising. So that if I am using a program that is fairly heavy and I need screen shots I can get them faster.

    Issue here oldman kscreenshot and klipper are faster at getting the result done than using MS Office 2010 solution. Why because I go to the application I am doing manual check on find that I need a screenshot so the instructions are better and I can take it there and then. No returning to MS Office to click insert screenshot. Even without customisation to allow me to do all of the 3 most common types I need it still works out better.

    That is the thing most of the little customisations I do are just to go faster again than what can do on Linux. Windows path is not clean.

    MS Office 2010 way of getting screenshots is time wasting oldman. The few mins to make kscreenshot faster I will recovery anyhow due to the faster process using kscreenshot compared to using MS Office 2010 in the first place.

    Oldman MS ways of doing things are not the most effective you find this out once you do truly use a Linux desktop for a while. When you return to Windows you start going ok this should be instant what it not.

    Both Linux and Windows DE has faults. At least the Linux one I can fix properly.

    I have tollerated this long enough ether from now on oldman you are oldtwit until you stop calling me MR HAM. MR HAM is in fact a completely different person. I have been tolerant.

  13. oldman says:

    “Yes Phenom this is why it pays to use Linux and equal for a while to see the other ways of solving the problems.”

    And IMHO if you do so without bias as you have Mr. HAM you soon discover that the some total of all your little customizations when added to the customizations needed to make up for missing features, add up to a lot of time wasting.

  14. oiaohm says:

    Phenom
    “I need a simple screenshot of an existing application window. Not the whole screen.
    And now you tell me that the more unefficient a workflow is, the better. Strange that world of yours.”

    Alt+printscrn under windows takes just the currently active window and it part of the OS.

    I have assigned ksnapshot –current to Alt+printscrn so it replicates the windows functionality. Don’t you know windows?

    I have also assigned ksnapshot –region to ctrl+printscreen. Yes region allows me to take just a segment of currently displayed desktop. So no requirement to crop in libreoffice with region mode either.

    Windows by default does not have a take region. So my work-flow under Linux for taking screenshots is faster than windows with the images inserted being either jpg or png at my choice as well. So yes faster and more options so why would I complain.

    Yes by default windows printscrn functionality needs improvement. The insert print screen in MS Office 2010 is only required be cause you default OS screen shot program is crappy.

    Also you can use third party software on windows that even provided better screenshot functionality that what is in Windows by default it takes you to the default Linux level functionality these days http://xscreenshot.com/

    So MS insert screenshot MS Office 2010. Is MS charging for something they should have upgraded in Windows and be providing to every application running under windows. Not something special for MS Office 2010. This is why what you are talking about is so bogus. There was never any reason to use a graphics editor there are specialist screenshot software that is better than what MS Office contains in the first place and works with every application on your computer.

    Yes Phenom this is why it pays to use Linux and equal for a while to see the other ways of solving the problems. So seeing that what MS is doing is stupid.

    Lets say you want to attach picture of you screen to a bug report or someone you are IM with to fix a problem Phenom. The thirdparty snapshot programs for Windows allow you todo this. Same with Ksnapshot and gnome equal that comes with those desktop environments.

    Not that you are going to open up full copy of MS Office just to screenshot something or that you should have to open up full libreoffice just to screenshot something either. Taking a screen shot should be basic functionality in the desktop environment and should be good.

    Many areas the base windows OS is getting crappy. Handling screenshots is one area Windows is getting really crappy at doing.

    Yes its items like screenshots when oldman says that Linux desktop has no tricks annoys the hell out of me. The Linux Desktop has a lot of small tricks is does insanely good. Taking screenshots is one of those things. The option to swap you screenshot program on printscrn button is another functionality that is very useful. If the gnome program provides some functionality I need I can change the keystrokes over. So I get the other functionality. Being flexible is key to the Linux desktop environment.

    Basically if libreoffice provided insert screenshot it would be duplicating functionality that is better served by standalone applications so that a user only has to learn one snapshot process to use with every application they use.

    Was I even aware that MS Office 2010 had insert screen shot before you mentioned it no I was not reason I have had xscreenshot under windows for a long time so the screenshot functionality add is no reason to upgrade MS Office to 2010 either. I have better.

  15. pogson says:

    M$’s office suite is on a minority of PCs. LibreOffice and others are catching up quickly. Price matters.

    In Q3 2011, M$ reported $5.6billion for “business” segment, largely M$’s office suite. Assuming it was all due to the office suite, spread over 90million new PCs, they got only $60 per PC yet they charge $hundreds for the office suite. Clearly, they are getting their product on much less than half of PCs.

  16. Kozmcrae says:

    “MS Office is here to stay and no one is seriously looking for any alternative.”

    Downloads of Libre Office speak otherwise. You want content? Go fetch. It will do you good. But I will agree, Office, in one incarnation or another, is here to stay. You can argue all you want whether several downloads were because of mistakes by the hapless user or whether one download served many users on a server. Millions are using LO and millions more will be using it.

    What you are plying here Clarence is more Microsoft BS. Office *was* the only game in town. But that time is long gone. Office will suffer the fate of Internet Explorer (a slow decline into irrelevancy).

    People are beginning to rise out of the stupor they’ve suffered under the cult of Microsoft. I say cult because that is basically what it is. A belief in something whose foundation is not based in reality. That is the power of Microsoft’s marketing machine. By the way, they are not alone in that matter (Apple has them beat in imagined reality).

  17. Clarence Moon says:

    MS Office is essentially a big bundle of stuff that has been viewed as popular at one time or another and that is used by someone somewhere today. Many, if not almost all, companies have become dependent on one or more of its aspects and see the costs to occasionally update to be far less than the costs that might be incurred due to a need to re-educate or retrain employees.

    I do not believe that big companies pay very much for it under their volume license agreements. Also, as a manager, I would be afraid of trying to make any such gross changes to day to day operations that would give anyone and everyone a plausible excuse for not providing some document or form used in day to day reporting that is often seen as an onerous task.

    MS Office is here to stay and no one is seriously looking for any alternative. Maybe in the cloud wars something will change, but not until then.

  18. Kozmcrae says:

    “Here you are a simple feature, which you would call bloat. I would call it a huge costs-saver.”

    That feature falls under the gold plating category. Your friend is the 1% of users who will use a feature like that. Everyone else needs a glorified typewriter. You have no idea how much damage software like Office has on an organization. For the entire service life of that product, multiplied by the number of licenses, all those nifty ‘features’ are dead weight. They add nothing to the productivity of the user but the company/business is paying for them anyway. That’s the equivalent of selling a lobster fisherman a yacht every three years.

  19. pogson says:

    KSnapshot has several modes, including window under cursor, region, screen…

    Some people are in such a rush to judgment they don’t read the links…

  20. Phenom says:

    “For things like this, control and end result is much more important than how many clicks it takes”.

    I need a simple screenshot of an existing application window. Not the whole screen.
    And now you tell me that the more unefficient a workflow is, the better. Strange that world of yours.

  21. pogson says:

    LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org can resize images from insert/file. I like KSnapshot for desktop shots. It has a “select region” feature which is nice or one can do the whole screen. For things like this, control and end result is much more important than how many clicks it takes. I can leave KSnapshot running in another window, trigger a delayed snap and change back to my working screen, do the selection and save the file. Having a saved file is advantageous because it is available for other documents in original form. Insert from file takes only a few seconds. It works for me.

    This is also an example where being able to do a lot from typed commands is more efficient as a line of text takes up much less space in a document. I could also set up automated resizing if the desktop is too many pixels for the inserted image to avoid having to manually resize. One could set up a process to examine the images in a directory and resize ones that are the wrong size. It’s trivial to do them all at once:
    for f in pix_dir/*; do convert $f -resize 500x312 resized_dir/$f;done
    All I need do on a default Debian GNU/Linux system is apt-get install imagemagick and that will work. How many seconds does that save?

  22. oiaohm says:

    Phenom Doffus existing using all office suites and you just gave a operational example of one with Libreoffice. Libreoffice contains image cropping functionality internally.

    Libreoffice is insert then crop with libreoffice. No extra image editor required. Print screen paste under windows and it is in.

    KDE is also Ksnapshot take care of the capture screen bit hitting the print screen button. Also just like windows you can configure a key combination for just capturing the active window.

    I don’t use gnome but there is a gnome snapshot program as well with same range of functionality.

    There is no excuse for taking 30 to 60 seconds to insert a snapshot other than incompetence. Crop is a picture property in Libreoffice and you can select temp crop or alter stored image crop. This is handy.

    Basically ksnapshot will bring up all the functionality you have under insert snapshot in MS office. Yes I can keep on typing why ksnapshot starts and I can leave ksnapshot running while I take many snapshots to the cut paste buffer.

    So basically I have that insert snapshot functionality. Yes its a third party program to libreoffice. All Linux desktop environments have programs for just taking screen shots.

    Nice bit if for some reason libreoffice stalls. I can be taking screen shots using the screen shot program and storing in the copy paste cache.

    So yes the Linux user is more effective making a manual than a MS Office 2010 user because the screen shot program is independent and you can que up images to paste into the document.

  23. Phenom says:

    “A desktop OS costs $0 + installation time. That other OS costs $100+. Suppose labour is worth $50/h and installation takes 20 minutes. You are paying several times too much for less IT. The same benefits you find in LAMP can be yours on the desktop.”

    I am afraid I can’t, Pogson. A collegue of mine right now is writing the user manual for a software product. The manual needs to have a large bunch of screenshots from the product in question. In Office 2010 there is this nice feature Insert Screenshot, which can insert a whole top-level window, or let you snippet any portion of your desktop with two clicks. Inserting a screenshot takes between 2 and 5 seconds.

    In Libre Office, my colleague would need to go though an image editor (copy whole screen and do the cropping there). Between 30 and 60 seconds per image.

    Here you are a simple feature, which you would call bloat. I would call it a huge costs-saver. And since I pay the salaries, for me it is times cheaper to spend $200 on Office 2010 once, than pay extra salaries every month for inefficient operations.

  24. oiaohm says:

    pogson we get along because I see the world as shades of grey. There are many different mixes of Windows and Linux desktop solutions that get the job done.

    Issue is Phenom and oldman see the picture as black and white.

    “When I need a tool for the desktop, I choose Windows. Am I extreme?” Yes this is the extreme end of the black and white scale Phenom.

    My desktop for me is Linux. Because it services everything I need. But I know it will not service everything everyone will need.

    Business solutions I do are shades of grey. Mixtures of Linux and Windows. Some cases its fall back to Linux terminal servers in case of windows virus infection. This is about downtime. A machine that can do 60 percent of the work is better than a machine that can do 0 percent of the work.

    Phenom and oldman I guess would not dispute that Linux Desktop can do at least 60 percent of what a Office needs todo. So at this you have to accept it suitable for a fall back solution in case of infection so allowing computers to be cleaned and repaired in place. Ie avoiding operational seat reduction due to virus infection. Cost savings and performance boost.

    This is the problem oldman I build with reduced downtime. Linux low cost allows me to hide the backup terminal server in like the N+1 web server. So it not extra hardware cost.

    Windows the cost of Windows terminal services you cannot justify having it if you are not using it.

  25. pogson says:

    Phenom wrote, “When I need a tool for the desktop, I choose Windows. Am I extreme?”

    Yes. A desktop OS costs $0 + installation time. That other OS costs $100+. Suppose labour is worth $50/h and installation takes 20 minutes. You are paying several times too much for less IT. The same benefits you find in LAMP can be yours on the desktop.

  26. pogson says:

    O SHUCKS! You’ve just made my life more difficult. I always assume rationality prevails… 😉 Anyway, I have the recipe for debunking in a window open beside me…

  27. Kozmcrae says:

    “Even though oldman has endured my facts for many years on DesktopLinux.com and this blog, he doggedly persists in holding the wrong view. I will keep trying.”

    Try this Mr. Pogson: http://www.skepticalscience.com/docs/Debunking_Handbook.pdf

    I scanned it. It details how to deal with people like @ldman. He’s not a skeptic but he is locked into a mode of thinking that locks out everything else. Oddly enough, one of the things to avoid is using a bunch of facts to dissuade them from their current line of thinking.

    I believe @ldman is a lost cause. He will never change his thinking even if he is forced (by way of employment perhaps) to use nothing but FLOSS. Going back and forth with him, using facts, is a waste of time. He doesn’t even hear you.

  28. Phenom says:

    Is it extreme to choose the best tool for your job?

    Sometimes, in the name of the progress, it is good to be an early adopter and sacrifise some resources for the good of the future. But that works only within a reasonable margin of the available resources, or else every one is doomed to misery.

    When Linux is the best tool for my job (LAMP in my case – cheap efficient test bed for PHP websites), I do choose Linux, though I prefer CentOS than Debian. When I need a tool for the desktop, I choose Windows. Am I extreme?

  29. pogson says:

    Absence of pragmatism is not indicator of religiosity.

    Absence of pragmatism is what separates the visionaries from the ordinary folk. Were Steve Jobs and Bill Gates pragmatic? Nope. They each went to extremes to get what they wanted. Fortunately, I don’t have to go to any extremes. My position is moderate on most issues. It is those who choose monopoly over competition who are extreme.

  30. Phenom says:

    Pogson, views on pragmatism is exactly where you drift away from the majority of people and the business world. The latter choose what the most pragmatic option, while you always rely on religious motives.

  31. pogson says:

    oldman wrote, “The reality is that if Pog doesnt want to hear from us “trolls” all he has to do is either ban us as we show up or shut off comments all together.

    Why he chooses not to is his business.”

    I happen to enjoy “argument”, especially when I am on the winning side. Arguments here tend to be weak and trail off into ad hominem or strawman attacks. I can and do support my arguments with facts, especially numbers. Still folks like oldman claim my facts are wrong or irrelevant. I guess I have too much patience for such things.

    oldman definitely knows his stuff. It’s his values that are the difficulty here. Pragmatism is not acceptable to me. I will go to great lengths to find the correct solution even when some other solution being pragmatic may be easier or more acceptable to the boss. I write memos weekly to the boss until he/she relents… I usually win arguments in person by the weight of evidence I can provide. Even though oldman has endured my facts for many years on DesktopLinux.com and this blog, he doggedly persists in holding the wrong view. I will keep trying.

  32. pogson says:

    I have seen dyslexia. I know about what oiaohm writes. In children with dyslexia, sticking with the written word in high school is a show-stopper. That’s why we teach multiple ways so that whatever means of learning work for each child are accessed. I have been blessed to have been a computer teacher. There is a lot of hands-on stuff that students of all capabilities can enjoy. Computers are great at keeping things in order… Personally, my problem is memory. It works very well,… but not in real time… so I remember stuff hours or days later. Google and other search engines are my friends. Dyslexia is not my problem. I can remember phone numbers from the 1960s. I was a whiz at mental arithmetic and pencil and paper worked for me.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Yonah english is my first language. Not second or third. My language errors fall under a condition called dyslexia or other person not understanding the full rules of english. Dyslexia Effects language processing section of brain. Fun mine is writing focused. Before you get smart 90 percent of the population has dyslexia at some level.

    Basically I am just more to the extrema end of the problem of dyslexia less than 5 percent of the population. I was at one point declared that I would never be functional due to dyslexia. Anyone who saw my typing a 10 years ago a few spelling errors that oldman does is nothing.

    Anyone who knows the full effects of dyslexia on writing can spot the difference between a non native speaker and a dyslexia person who started with a non functional rating and has worked there but off fixing the condition. But to the people like you who are non educated in the condition normally presume the issue is second or third language issue due to there been a common set of errors.

    The difference is a person with second or third language has a fairly much constant error pattern. Dyslexia people like me don’t have a constant error pattern. My emotions do have a effect on my english in fact can make my Dyslexia worse. The day I have had if I am dehydrated or other wise physically stressed also has a effect. Even If I have been stupid and have not been wearing my glasses with a coloured tint to prevent a particular freq of light entering my eyes will make me worst in writing skill.

    At my worst I could not even spell 2 letter words with more than a 50/50 of the time correct. Yep old documents of mine have my as ym and to as ot.

    Issue to treat the dyslexia when I was young the cure was thought to be teach all the english rules that would fix it. This makes my english worse for general population who don’t know all the rules of english. I know most of the exotic rules of english along with the normal. This includes the rules to abuse word orders and the one odd rule that got you.

    What is the only true treatment to dyslexia is simply write find mistakes in what you have done and go back and fix. Basically this is more interesting way of me getting my required amount of english writing I have todo done to treat my problem.

    Yonah your examples of my faults
    “Also this makes sense large processing computer makes noise. Where are fan-less arm is dead silent.” –> Also, this makes sense. Large processors in computers make noise. Whereas fan-less ARM processors are dead silent.
    — This is example of dyslexia word processing at it worst. What I was really going for there is: “Also this makes sense.(yes I missed one) Large processor computer fans makes noise. Where arm fan-less is dead silent.” Added a extra 3 letter word deleted a 3 letter word and put a word 2 words in the wrong places. This is called word scrambling issue that is only in the worst cases of dyslexia.

    I use to shuffle the words around in the complete sentences and paragraphs so that all the correct words were in the paragraph just in the wrong order completely. This was 100 percent not readable even to me 48 hours latter. Problem is for 24 to 48 hours I cannot even see what I have written wrong because my brain is real time masking it out of existence for me. Note the corrected sentence by you Yonah is in fact wrong because computer processors don’t make a sound ever.

    “Let the fun being.” –> Let the fun BEGIN.
    — Dyslexia letter scramble that I did not notice because spell checker did not spot it. Yes to all those people who say spell checkers and grammar solve everything go F#^# yourselves. Repeated signs of doing stuff like this shows a person with Dyslexia. Particularly if it random. I have typed let the fun begin correct quite a few times yet every now and again being instead of begin appears same with a few other words.

    “Does MS have a choice in the matter. Answer is no.” — Except without a question mark it isn’t a question.
    — This is a english fault on your part. Yes exotic rule when you are asking a question and answering it straight up the question mark is optional because since you are providing the answer straight up its no longer a question but a two sentence statement. Depending on what rule book you follow if you have to put the question mark in or not. Yes it is simple to type full stop than question mark. Problem with knowing the exotic rule. The other perfectly legal option I had is also “Does MS have a choice in the matter, .” I always have trouble forming the correct statement wording for no to use after the , . Basically question mark optional full stop at that point is optional if you can do the more complex ending statement. Yes there is a reason why I try to restrict myself to . and ? only. If I start using , you guys with exotic english rules will not stand a hope in hell of reading what I type even if it is perfectly valid english.

    Team Fortress 2 one was a memory error. I did work out where the memory error was coming from. Team Fortress the first 1 current version number for it source code is 2.9.

    “Red Flag Linux on people’s disdain for the government” that comes from information that I heard direct from people I get parts from in china. They did not trust it.

    Of course my information can be wrong at times this is part of being human. Not all data I have will be 100 percent correct all the time and I accept this fact. I am human Yonah. Of course this is not something you want to accept.

    By the way oldman please go and look through the Linux hater blog and you will find out there is another person who is not me who uses the handle oiaoham.

    Simple fact is my title is not MR Ham or oiaoham. Oldman not once have I typed your handle wrong. Questioned what gave you the right to it.

    Simple fact of the matter here Oldman is disrespectful to anyone who does disagree with him. Uses handles that own to other people who are not me. I am surprised one of them have not taken offence to him yet.

    Oldman does have a issue of using bad word patterns creating context that he is not attending that comes clear when he is called on it. What is not effect of bad typing but poor english skill in a particular area. Something that is not that hard to fix.

    Some of the poor context also makes Oldman bad a picking examples and assessing problems correctly.

    Nothing that Oldman could not fix if he choose to. Oldman would cause less pointless flames if he did. Note its not just me getting into flame fights with him.

    This is the problem dyslexia does not stop me from spotting language faults in other people. In fact it makes more more likely to due to the more time I have had to spend learning english.

  34. Yonah says:

    Kozmcrae, I did read your comment carefully. Perhaps you forgot what you wrote:

    “oiaohm, @ldman is misspelling words. You’re getting to him.”

    As for Oiaohm not being a native speaker, even if true, that still doesn’t bode well for him. A majority of the people I’ve met who use English as a 2nd or 3rd language rarely make the kinds of gaffs we typically see from Oiaohm. If a few spelling mistakes are a sign of someone becoming unhinged, what can you take from someone who consistently mangles every other sentence?

    Linguistics aside, previously he stated that Team Fortress 2 was using a FOSS engine (or derived from it) and then later went on to explain the failure of Red Flag Linux on people’s disdain for the government. Both statements are wildly inaccurate. I believe these comments stem from the level of devotion typical of a FOSS advocate. Warping everything in their reality to bend towards their view for the sake of comfort.

    Long story short, he’s full of poo-poo.

  35. oldman says:

    “they seem to be going out of their way to make Microsoft look bad.”

    Why do you say that Mr. K? Because we dont rubber stamp your views about Linux? Because we point out the flaws in Pog’s arguements and his “answers”?

    The reality is that if Pog doesnt want to hear from us “trolls” all he has to do is either ban us as we show up or shut off comments all together.

    Why he chooses not to is his business.

    As far as us making Microsoft look bad that depends on certain facts being true. In my case:

    1) That I am “apologizing” for microsoft. The reality is that I am doing nothing more and nothing less than responding to what I see as misleading and erroneous posts coming from this blog. I bring to my comments and perspectives of over 30 years of experience in both camps. If expressing those opinions forcefully makes me sound arrogant, so be it. I do not make any apologies for what I know, nor do I make any apologies about what I think are the deficiencies of Linux and FOSS. And as long as Robert Pogson permits me to comment here I shall do so whether you like it or not.

    2) That I become “unhinged”: It should be no surprise from my exchanges with posters who get nasty with me are nasty. As far as I am concerned, if you are going to throw mud then expect some return fire. All you have to do to be treated civilly is to treat ME civilly. Try it, you might be surprised.

    So I say to you again Mr. K how about doing something other than pointless sniping and actually joining the discussion.

    Or are you just too pure to sully yourself to actually descend to conversing with the “big ol’ nasty Troll”?

    The reality is Mr. K. that I represent nobody but my self and only myself.

  36. Kozmcrae says:

    “Kozmcrae, I enjoy the irony of supporting oiaohm by attacking another commenter who makes spelling mistakes, when oiaohm himself regularly blesses us with such grammatical masterpieces as these:”

    We all make spelling mistakes Yonah. If you read my comments pertaining to oldman carefully, it’s not his spelling I commenting on. It’s the way he becomes unhinged.

    Non English speakers such as oiaohm get a get-out-of-jail free card when it comes to spelling. Although, some non English speakers such as Florian Meuller can write circles around anyone commenting here. He *is* paid by Microsoft and that makes sense. He presents and educated, well read, cultured image for Microsoft in the press. Unlike the Microsoft boosters who comment here; they seem to be going out of their way to make Microsoft look bad.

  37. oldman says:

    “He cannot know how the whole thing is functioning even being there.”

    Granted. However if you dont just dismiss what he is saying is an outright lie, then you have to allow that what he is seeing is at the very least an indication that closed source commercial software is just as ubiquitous as it it is in Canada and the USA.

    If it is any consolation I am sure that in terms of volume of users Linux use is probably huge. Remember 1% of 1.3 billion people is a lot.

  38. Clarence Moon says:

    The brand is important. People look to branded merchandise as an assurance of acceptible quality and the opportunity to correct for any deficiency that might be found. It overcomes a lot of reluctance on the part of the buyer to venture into the unknown.

    Of course the failure of Dell to continue the experiment with Ubuntu on netbooks and some other lines is evidence that Dell did not find the experience profitable in their circumstances. I do not know what the factors were, but Dell did and did not choose to continue to sell the Ubuntu based products in the US and perhaps other markets. Pricing was not sufficiently lower for Ubuntu models so as to influence sales.

    What I think that sort of presentation tells the world is that Dell is not very enthusiastic about Ubuntu and not very strongly committed. It screams “likely to be an orphan!” to the buyer and they did not catch on.

    My view of the Dell proposals for netbooks, which I did look at few years ago when I ended up buying an Acer One, was that Ubuntu was offered on the starter model but was not available on the better models, which strongly suggested that Ubuntu was somehow inferior and was offered for the extreme bottom of the market.

    Of course China may be different, but I don’t shop there.

  39. pogson says:

    I don’t know. My spies sent to Beijing let me down. I do know Dell is displaying GNU/Linux PCs on retail shelves in China. China is huge. He cannot know how the whole thing is functioning even being there.

    Is it believable that people would buy a Dell just to install that other OS at retail prices or bother to do the labour with an illegal copy? I don’t believe it. Even if true the fact that there are ten times as many XP machines as GNU/Linux machines suggests the traffic would be the other way…

  40. oldman says:

    “So, I doubt Yonah’s assertions.”

    Do you think that he is Lying Pog?

  41. pogson says:

    Yonah wrote, “Your blog is mostly nonsense but I’m actually here to observe your devotion to FOSS. Devotion to any idea, political movement, country, or religion is something I consider deeply disturbing and worth examining.”

    My devotion to FLOSS is nothing about belief, faith or religion but personal experience over more than a decade in the real world of ordinary people using IT. There is nothing in non-Free software that brings as much value for the effort/cost of acquiring/maintaining it as FLOSS. That’s fact, not faith. In an hour or two I can convert a lab of 24 PCs into a lab of GNU/Linux thin clients booting PXE from a newer machine for $0 in hardware (except the odd faster switch or network cable). To get that dramatic improvement from non-Free software would cost $thousands. There’s just no comparison.

    Personally, I have been empowered by FLOSS, able to set up databases, servers, networks etc. in minutes instead of the days it would take with that other OS, obtaining and installing software, let alone maintaining/upgrading it. FLOSS stays at $0 and the non-Free software keeps costing, forever. M$ shows no sign of giving its software away so my belief that FLOSS will keep on giving the best price/performance forever is supportable.

    Yonah, OTOH, requires us to have faith that he is genuine and knows what 1billion+ people are doing about IT. China has millions of bright minds working with FLOSS giving the world better products and using FLOSS at home. China has the stated goal of independence in IT and FLOSS can expedite that with no need to produce $billions of software to achieve that goal. So, I doubt Yonah’s assertions.

  42. Yonah says:

    I’m specifically referring to the situation in China, something you know very little about apart from what articles you can dig up on the Internet by using Google as some kind of divining rod for the truth. A remarkably unscientific and inaccurate method for someone who was once a teacher.

    “If his opinion were true, Phoney “7″ would be on 90% of smart phones and “7″ would be on all the other smart thingies and we know that is not so.”

    Where in my post did I say anything about phones, embedded devices, servers, or other electronics? Changing the point I was arguing is unfair. My original point stands.

    “If he believed what he posted, he would ignore my blog as nonsense and carry on with his life.”

    Your blog is mostly nonsense but I’m actually here to observe your devotion to FOSS. Devotion to any idea, political movement, country, or religion is something I consider deeply disturbing and worth examining. Devotion does not require facts, evidence, or even common sense.

    On the other hand, you’re out of work? Right? By proselytizing FOSS, you stand a chance of landing a job supporting it, do you not?

    What about me? What do I stand to gain? Am I an evil agent of Microsoft looking to increase my profits? Or just a man looking to entertain himself at your expense? Like I told you before, EVERYONE wants something.

  43. Yonah says:

    Kozmcrae, I enjoy the irony of supporting oiaohm by attacking another commenter who makes spelling mistakes, when oiaohm himself regularly blesses us with such grammatical masterpieces as these:

    “Also this makes sense large processing computer makes noise. Where are fan-less arm is dead silent.” –> Also, this makes sense. Large processors in computers make noise. Whereas fan-less ARM processors are dead silent.

    “Let the fun being.” –> Let the fun BEGIN.

    “Does MS have a choice in the matter. Answer is no.” — Except without a question mark it isn’t a question.

    Now, you can chalk all that up to a lack of proofreading, which is a reasonable assumption based on the LARGE volumes of text he posts. But I think there’s something deeper at play.

  44. pogson says:

    Yonah wrote, “Windows is deeply ingrained into the culture of computers on a level you haven’t seen.”

    Quite wrong. That other OS is very strongly entrenched right here in Canada to the point that I have seen people using XP SP1 and IE6 but I have seen people fall off their chair when confronted with the raw performance of GNU/Linux on the same hardware they have been cursing for years.

    GNU/Linux keeps growing in popularity in spite of Yonah’s opinion. If his opinion were true, Phoney “7” would be on 90% of smart phones and “7” would be on all the other smart thingies and we know that is not so. Yonah knows this but continues to post this nonsense. If he believed what he posted, he would ignore my blog as nonsense and carry on with his life.

  45. Yonah says:

    Pogson: “very few people change the OS but in the rest of the world, everyone is a bloody genius and automatically does that???”

    They don’t need to be a genius. Most people in developing countries would see a PC that is not running Windows as a problem that needs to be fixed. I’m inclined to agree. They can take their machine to any one of the thousands of tiny service shops scattered around the country and have a pirated copy of Windows installed for a pittance. Windows is deeply ingrained into the culture of computers on a level you haven’t seen. On my 3rd year in China, I’ve seen that first hand. You won’t see that Googling behind your desk in North America.

  46. pogson says:

    I just spent the weekend in the bush with a guy who works 9-5 with an x86 notebook but never turns on his PC at home. He does everything with his smart phone from checking the weather, phoning, browsing, shopping, sharing… There isn’t anything most people do with a “PC” that he cannot do with his smart phone. He paid more for his smart phone than most people spend on a PC. Remember when the desktop was king? Suddenly notebooks took over. I did not expect that and it seemed to take many others by surprise but now the smart thingy is taking over the notebook. I doubt any platform will be totally killed just as we still have mainframes but desktop/notebook PCs will not be dominant a few years from now. They will just be one option. Very few need the big box unless they need spaces for drives. Very few need the notebook if they had a smart thingy with a keyboard. They are all computers and can serve a wide range of personal needs in a wide range of prices.

  47. oldman says:

    “@ldman, you are only interested in what you have to say. That’s not a discussion. And you certainly don’t ignore those who point out your fallacies. You really do seem to enjoy the attention, good or bad. If it’s bad, you just get more haughty.”

    How do you know that Mr. K if you dont try. I have listened to what Pog has to say about the application of Linux to the environment that he taught in. As much as I abhor the platform on premise, one can not argue with success. Where Pog and I part the ways is when I extrapolates out of that experience or when he make statements based on obsolete experiences.

    You on the other hand are still content free in your posts.

    I await a real statement. You might be surprised at the answer from me.

  48. Kozmcrae says:

    @ldman, you are only interested in what you have to say. That’s not a discussion. And you certainly don’t ignore those who point out your fallacies. You really do seem to enjoy the attention, good or bad. If it’s bad, you just get more haughty.

  49. oldman says:

    “oiaohm, @ldman is misspelling words. You’re getting to him. Pretty soon he’ll use “bushwah” on you. Then you’ve really had it… NOT! He gets really mad when people make sense and don’t buy his BS. Ain’t that right @ldman?

    In point of fact I mistype words regardless of emotional state. Thats the curse of being a hunt and peck typist.

    No matter. It would seem that you have answered my question. Instead of participating in the discussion, you will simply sit back and throw content free verbal insults.

    Meh, more noise to be ignored.

  50. Kozmcrae says:

    oiaohm, @ldman is misspelling words. You’re getting to him. Pretty soon he’ll use “bushwah” on you. Then you’ve really had it… NOT! He gets really mad when people make sense and don’t buy his BS. Ain’t that right @ldman?

  51. oldman says:

    “So you are mostly incompetent on windows as well apparently.”

    Nope. I do quite well thank you. M personal system works just fine. You are the one who runs into the problem.

    The rest of your post is as usual from the guy whose job it apparently is to potter around the outback doing itinerant IT – unless of course you have lied about that As well.

    Mr. Ham I’m just going to reject as noise anything you have to say about my technical competence. If you wish to talk about the issues feel free. But in that aspect you are nothing but noise, Mr. “I have few faults”.

  52. Ray says:

    And in response to the original article, I don’t think that the PC will eventually be obsolete. Sure, smartphones might take the hype away from them, but people will still going to be needing desktop, the number using them will more or less stagnate, but people wouldn’t ditch them “en masse”. If they did it to bigger, obsolete technology, there wouldn’t be any mainframes (supercomputers), nor minicomputers (server racks).

  53. Ray says:

    oiaohm
    “Basically just because you cannot expand the hardware in the thin-client does not mean you cannot expand it function.”

    True, but I personally prefer it, as my laptop can be taken anywhere without having to connect with the desktop anywhere. On the other hand, having the connection between the thin client and the server would eventually be made obsolete, due to advancing technology of the connection, from wireless b, to wireless n.

  54. oiaohm says:

    oldman
    “But thats android Mr. ham, which we all know is a commercial OS based on open source code. I have every faith that these vendors can tap into closed source commercial software developer pool, and will attempt to provide a service.”
    But the HP prototype server is not running Android its running full Linux based off tizen of all things.

    oldman
    “Thats funny, I dont. So I guess that makes you an incompetent in managing your windows desktop, eh?”
    You don’t run into that defect all the time on Linux either oldman. So you are mostly incompetent on windows as well apparently. Its just a flash and other browser plugin registration issue that happens from time to time on all platforms.

    oldman
    “The reality was that I had zero interest in starting a fight with my wife over something as stupid as a desktop computer OS. I gave her what she was used to.”
    Exactly what I suspected. No proper support services from you who she would have turned to for support services so of course the migration failed at the first tripping block.

    So don’t use that example again oldman its not a quality example at all. If I was her and you would not give proper support over such a minor issue I would want Linux uninstalled ASAP. I have seen the reverse true in some house holds as well. Where the Wife is running Linux not because she wants to but that is the only thing the Husband will provide proper support for.

    Anyone using examples without proper support and saying they know why a person is using a OS is a idiot.

    The example of your wife plays into the false reality in your mind. It matched exactly what you expected to happen. Your actions made the expected result you wished for to come true. This is why science require blind studies so personal bias does not effect result. Bias results distort you view of the real world oldman.

    Heck if you cannot tell the difference between a bias study result and a valid result you are more than in trouble oldman. You will be costing where you work a fortune because you will not be able to compare program properly.

  55. pogson says:

    Home users can have the same benefits teachers see: single point of control, caching, recycling older machines and saving power/money.

    e.g. suppose a home needs/wants 3 PCs to keep harmony. They are likely looking at a capital cost of 3X$500 + networking. If they use 100 megabits/s networking they could do it for 1X$600 + 2X $200 saving $500 and get better performance while reducing total power consumption. Families really like the idea of a single kid filter on the network. Families really do like buying fewer new/expensive PCs and letting everyone share the power. The question should be why anyone would consider not setting up such a system if they knew the pros and cons.

  56. oldman says:

    “Gentlemen, there’s a gap between how you see yourselves and how others see you. You’re not connecting with reality. Try a little humility.”

    I would be interested in hearing what reality you think that I am not dealing with Mr. F.

    What is your idea of humility Mr. F?

  57. pogson says:

    I have been using personal computers at work and play for more than 30 years and never seen Quicken running. I think that’s irrelevant to the matter. Most people are not specialized in their usage of PCs. I know people who do nothing but visit Facebook using a PC.

  58. pogson says:

    Phenom wrote, “Trying to save costs, they would often buy a machine with FreeDOS or Linux, and hand it over immediately to their tech-savvy acquaintance to install some Windows on it”.

    That does not make any sense. If a person were short of cash, they would buy a machine with GNU/Linux on it and use it because it would be an extra expense to convert.

  59. Waldo Frankenhammer III says:

    “As someone who has the technical knowhow to do what you suggest I still have no interest in doing so.”

    The World according to oldman.

    “Pogson, in countries 1, 3, 7 the laptop is going to end up with Windows two hours after purchase.”

    Phenom’s opinion as fact.

    Gentlemen, there’s a gap between how you see yourselves and how others see you. You’re not connecting with reality. Try a little humility.

  60. oldman says:

    “HP and other are planning preconfigure cloud systems for android tablets and other devices. Basically out of the box operational terminal services for the home market oldman. So the huge configuration thing will disappear.”

    But thats android Mr. ham, which we all know is a commercial OS based on open source code. I have every faith that these vendors can tap into closed source commercial software developer pool, and will attempt to provide a service.

    As to the services that they may provide, and how successful it may be, that is speculation on your part.

    Talk to me when it sis available and proven.

  61. oldman says:

    “I have had exactly the same issue with Thunderbird on Windows by the way oldman.”

    Thats funny, I dont. So I guess that makes you an incompetent in managing your windows desktop, eh?

    Not surprising considering your biases.

  62. oldman says:

    “eally I guess you would not help her address the issue either. So Linux got called junk because you were so incompetent that you could not explain the secuirty risks to here and also install flash in thunderbird on linux.”

    I guess you are not married are you Mr. Ham? Were you you would already know that you don’t get to explain anything once the little woman explains what is to be done.

    Am I Right Pog? 😉

    And BTW, the edict came after I spent several hours correcting the issues she ran into. Most of them including flash were corrected, but she just didnt want to deal with the linux desktop anymore.

    “Basically removed ASAP because you are either unwilling or unable to provide proper Linux support oldman.”

    The reality was that I had zero interest in starting a fight with my wife over something as stupid as a desktop computer OS. I gave her what she was used to.

    End of story.

  63. oiaohm says:

    Phenom lets just say copyright infringer and be done with it.

    Tech-savvy acquaintances are getting rarer. Since infringing copies that keep on working properly are reducing.

  64. Phenom says:

    Pogson, I don’t speak for the whole world. I speak for the countries I listed. There, you know, buying a computer is a significant cost for a household, due to the difference in the economic standard. Therefore, when common people go out to buy a PC, they are very, very conscious about it, and try to seek advise from some more tech-savvy. Trying to save costs, they would often buy a machine with FreeDOS or Linux, and hand it over immediately to their tech-savvy acquaintance to install some Windows on it.

    Yeah, you can go on and tell them and Linux is good enough for them.

  65. saulgoode says:

    “I have two daughters in university and they don’t even think of producing assignments on paper. It’s all done by electronic filing and no desktop or notebook PC is needed to do that.”
    May I ask how these daughters are generating their assignments? voice recognition? stylus writing on a graphics pad? finger-painting on a touchscreen? thought impulses?

  66. oiaohm says:

    Oldman nice you claim Linux skill. I have had exactly the same issue with Thunderbird on Windows by the way oldman.

    Yes you can install flash into thunderbird on Linux.

    Also your wife will get virus infected at some point due to flash based and those other display parts.

    Really I guess you would not help her address the issue either. So Linux got called junk because you were so incompetent that you could not explain the secuirty risks to here and also install flash in thunderbird on linux. Thinking the process is almost exactly the same as windows using the xpi interface.

    Basically removed ASAP because you are either unwilling or unable to provide proper Linux support oldman.

    HP and other are planning preconfigure cloud systems for android tablets and other devices. Basically out of the box operational terminal services for the home market oldman. So the huge configuration thing will disappear.

  67. Clarence Moon says:

    I do not understand the relevance of search results in regard to unit sales and availability. The Cnet article cited didn’t say that distribution would be limited to Soviet bloc or Asia countries, it said Toshiba was introducing the so-called “smart book” in June, 2010. Where is it today? Toshiba’s retail arm decided not to push it in the US apparently. You can say that is because Microsoft bribed them to stiffle it or say that they didn’t think it would make them any money.

    As to the result, that speaks for itself.

    As to a buyer’s attitude about overall cost, it does not matter that the browser is free and that it works. If the buyer has some other programs, perhaps Quicken or a child’s game or some specialized program that they use, that program’s cost to replace will be considered and added to the total. Nothing is so absolute that it controls, but things like that significantly influence buying decisions and, worse, decisions to return the product for a refund.

  68. oldman says:

    “Using thin clients is plug and play with many distros. A choice at installation time and connecting the thin clients to the network is not a lot of expert effort. Teachers do it, for Pity’s sake.”

    Teachers may have a reason to do it Pog, but Home users do not. This is what you keep missing. I would also bet that you would be singing a different tune if the little woman didn’t like the choices that you gave her on your home server. It doesn’t take much.

    In my wifes case the fact that THunderbird running on linux couldn’t render the HTML in the emails that she received, coupled with the unfortunate reality that many of those emails tie to sites that use flash or some windows specific display component, rapidly got linux dismissed as junk to be removed ASAP.

  69. pogson says:

    Using thin clients is plug and play with many distros. A choice at installation time and connecting the thin clients to the network is not a lot of expert effort. Teachers do it, for Pity’s sake.

  70. pogson says:

    …or not.

    Phenom, are you claiming that in USA, very few people change the OS but in the rest of the world, everyone is a bloody genius and automatically does that??? Doesn’t that fly in the face of literacy, education, technological advancement? I believe very few people will bother to change the OS. That is part of M$’s lock-in, bundling the OS. Don’t try to persuade me otherwise.

  71. Phenom says:

    Pogson, in countries 1, 3, 7 the laptop is going to end up with Windows two hours after purchase. In 2, 4, 5, 6, and 8 – no later than 4 hours after purchase.

    Windows is the single most pirated piece of software in the whole ex-solviet block. Heck, even the latest EU members pirate it at a mind-boggling rate. Windows is the hit at all local torrents, sometimes scoring more than movie hits.

  72. oldman says:

    “This is actually an argument in favour of using GNU/Linux on thin clients.”

    Nope. Your average consumer is not going to become their own sysadmin. Think again.

    As someone who has the technical knowhow to do what you suggest I still have no interest in doing so. It is far easier and cheaper in terms of my time to equip my wife and daughter with inexpensive laptops equipped with linked to the internet wirelessly, than it would be to have to have to support them as users, ,and demanding users at that!

  73. pogson says:

    See Google Trends. USA is not in the first ten countries searching for “Toshiba AC100”.
    1. Russian Federation
    2. Czech Republic
    3. Ukraine
    4. Slovakia
    5. Hong Kong
    6. Italy
    7. Romania
    8. Portugal
    9. Norway
    10. Finland

    That tells you something about “consumer choice” in the USA.

  74. pogson says:

    Ray wrote, “when I have to get a better computer, I wouldn’t have to throw the entire thing away”.

    This is actually an argument in favour of using GNU/Linux on thin clients. Last year I had a lab full of 8 year old PCs that students and teachers had used for years running XP. I made them thin clients running GNU/Linux and put peoples’ sessions and executable and files on an 8 year old server with Xeon at 3.2gHz, 1gB ECC RAM at 400 MHz and quad SCSI hard drives in RAID 1. That setup knocked their socks off in terms of increased performance and even beat some new machines we brought in with 500 MB hard drives and XP. So, the user of a thin client properly configured see the performance of the server, not the thin client and a terminal server is way more efficient than a normal single drive thick client with faster seeking and cached files. Opening the word-processor windows dropped from 3-4s on a new machine to less than 2s using this setup. Logins to a useful desktop dropped from 5s to 2s, all without changing any hardware on the client machine.

  75. pogson says:

    People’s favourite app is the web browser and half the world prefer non-M$ browsers. FireFox, Chrome, Safari and Opera, in that order, take 54% of that space. So, the argument that apps deter users from buying Toshiba AC100 is rather weak.

  76. oiaohm says:

    Toshiba AC100 is on Amazon uk and australia Clarence Moon.

    Funny enough it never been sold in the USA. There are other 7 inch android laptops on Amazon. Toshiba USA never imported it.

    Basically the Toshiba AC100 has not flopped just Toshiba USA decided not to take it. Not every Toshiba product enters the USA.

    Remember Windows 8 is arm as well.

    http://www.langtoninfo.com/showitem.aspx?isbn=4026203822672 Insanely over priced way to get one.

  77. Clarence Moon says:

    Regarding the Toshiba AC100, that announcement is a year and a half old now and I do not recall any fuss being made about it. I looked on Amazon and it doesn’t seem to be listed although a bunch of Windows netbooks are there. Do you think it might have flopped? Somewhere else I posted that I thought that people buying a new laptop, netbook, or desktop would look askance at a Linux model or any model using ARM since their favorite apps for which they only have the Windows binary would not work on it.

  78. oiaohm says:

    Ray
    “I still want expandability though, so when I have to get a better computer, I wouldn’t have to throw the entire thing away.”
    This will most likely end up in the equal to a home cloud server/media server. Linux is working on vcrt what is basically a means to send GPU proccessed data where ever including to thinclients. So solving one of the biggest issues with thinclients lack of high grade 3d graphics.

    Also this makes sense large processing computer makes noise. Where are fan-less arm is dead silent. Yes thinclient setup does have some advantages.

    Basically just because you cannot expand the hardware in the thin-client does not mean you cannot expand it function.

  79. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser
    “A single OS for everything? Under no circumstances would Microsoft consider that.”

    Does MS have a choice in the matter. Answer is no. Either they willingly walk into the battle or they will get pulled in.

    Fujitsu has made a phone running 32 bit windows 7 home premium. MS already make a OS that runs on every type of device just they don’t like the idea. Hardware makers on the other hand just love the idea.

    So basically MS has two options be dragged kicking and screaming into the 1 OS on everything battle or willing walk into it and except the require price reduction in OS sales.

    Remember Windows 8 will be on arm so more hardware makers will be pushing MS hand in the one OS on everything model. Reason it cheaper for the hardware makers less driver development. Same SOC chip can be used in phone, smartbook, TV and Desktop.

    Dr Loser the longer MS resists the more annoyed hardware makers will be with MS and the more support Android and other Linux development options will get.

    MS resistance to reality is slowly cutting their own neck.

    Yes something is deeply wrong in the house of Gates when MS had monopoly control doing split OS’s at different costings to extract as much money as possible from the market was valid. That time is very quickly ending. House of Gates is not moving with the time.

  80. Ray says:

    I still want expandability though, so when I have to get a better computer, I wouldn’t have to throw the entire thing away.

  81. Dr Loser says:

    “About the only way MS can slow this down is if they join the 1 OS for everything battle.”

    Yes, indeedy, Oiaohm. I wonder when they’re going to join that battle?

    Surely they should have taken the lead back in the 1990s, when they had an illegal monopoly?

    There is something deeply wrong in the House of Gates. I cannot imagine why this clarion call escaped their attention.

    A single OS for everything? Under no circumstances would Microsoft consider that.

    Simple fact.

  82. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon android does not stop at just the tablet form factor. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-20008301-64.html

    Android has laptop form factors as well. This is the problem Clarence Moon. You are getting use to the android way of doing things.

    That is the problem buying new laptops does not mean buying new PC laptops. Desktop being pushed a side in business. In fact the numbers are showing that people are buying less laptops because jobs laptops were doing were over lapping with what tablets and phones now provide.

    Simple question here Clarence Moon if the day comes you can do everything with 1 OS will you not choose that path.

    Yes same OS on Phone, Tablet, settop box, laptop and desktop. No learning multi different OS’s.

    About the only way MS can slow this down is if they join the 1 OS for everything battle.

  83. Clarence Moon says:

    I see that now. I still think that it does not spell doom for the PC. I’m buying the Kindle Fire, which is an Android tablet, as an add-on to my other computer stuff and I think that most people I know who are buying phones and tablets are thinking the same way and are buying new laptops as well.

  84. oiaohm says:

    Clarence Moon note zone. USA market was 0.1.

    There is no more growth left in the PC market in the USA.

    3.6% growth is still very low growth numbers for the PC market globally by historic growth rates.

    Let the fun being. Samsung are starting to make what are called zero-clients. These are screens and thinclients in 1.

    So now PC or extra box at screen no longer requirement.

    So yes the stuff we can throw out will include the case as well. Since we will not need a extra case to the screen at the desktop.

  85. Clarence Moon says:

    I don’t know that it matters so much, but your cite says “Worldwide PC shipments increased by 3.6% in the third quarter of 2011 (3Q11) compared to the same quarter in 201” although your post says 0.1%.

    That number, even if it were zero, is for increase in the number of new PCs sold, too. As long as people buy as many PCs as they once did, it seems to me that Microsoft will continue to make as much money as always. Maybe they won’t make even more, but they still make an awful lot.

    Considering the fact that some pretty big companies have gone way down or even bankrupt, staying even and highly profitable is in itself quite an achievement.

  86. pogson says:

    US data from IDC
    3Q11/3Q10 growth in shipments of PCs = 0.1%

    “PC” in this case means notebook/desktop. Smart thingies were selling like hotcakes so this situation was not about the economy. It also shows that some people don’t need a “PC” and may never buy one. This suggests installed base will stop growing and could eventually decline. My wife and I and all my known family will likely never buy a “desktop” “PC” again. I have two daughters in university and they don’t even think of producing assignments on paper. It’s all done by electronic filing and no desktop or notebook PC is needed to do that. One does produce video but she’s the talking head and professionals do the editing. So, I know a bunch of people who may be quite satisfied by non-x86 smart thingies for everything they do. My son works at his job with a PC but uses a smart phone for everything else. None of them still use a desktop box. This is a real change in the market for PCs. Stuff that used to be necessary is now disadvantageous.

  87. Clarence Moon says:

    There are a lot of people who do not need a PC and who, as the blogger notes, have never had a PC before starting to use an iPhone or Android phone. It is not the end of the PC era though. PCs and phones and tablets are very different things, I think, and most people see them as distinct objects. A phone is a way to be connected to people and has some ability to access internet information via the many apps that people get to do very specific things.

    A tablet is more general, but seems more likely to be used for games than anything else. You can’t get much more mail or app information with it than you get with a much more portable phone. I think the iPad is going to suffer from the Kindle and even Nook color tablets that are easier to carry and do essentially the same thing as the iPad.

    A PC is still needed for situations where a lot of information has to be accessed and, more likely, sourced. Many people need all 3 kinds of devives, many more need two of them, and, of course, some only need one or the other. But I do not think that there is going to be a sharp or even sudden decline in PC sales due to the mobile device popularity.

    These things have been available for quite some time and the history is that they are additions to one’s personal collection, not substitutes.

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