For a Fun Time, Check Out SJVN’s Take on “8”

He compares it to Lose 1. That’s right, “Twenty-five plus years of user-interface development and this, this, is what we get!? Scary isn’t it?”

Chuckle… That’s harsh, but true and funny. I have been around about as long as SJVN and I have seen it all, too. M$’s latest and greatest stuff has been somewhere, someplace, sometime earlier.

Take that “transparent” AeroGlas desktop stuff. Where have we seen transparency before? Gimp. Gimp has been able to create images with transparency for many years.

Of course, rectangular regions of the screen called “windows” have been around since the earliest binary computers. I remember working on digital instruments that dated from WWII in their concepts that had a “window” control. You turned a dial and the window’s dimension changed. Then M$ decided to name its OS Windows and we are stuck with confusion about innovation ever since. M$ was successful at snowing the USPTO in those days but the welcome is wearing thin. I doubt the USPTO is really enjoying all those software patents coming back for re-examination. Sounds like unnecessary work, eh?

I really cannot blame M$ for reinventing the wheel. Everyone does it but most people are honourable and don’t claim it as something novel.

Check out SJVN – Windows 8: A bad bet

He’s projecting a fiasco of Vista-like proportions. I hope he’s right. I enjoyed Vista. 😉

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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49 Responses to For a Fun Time, Check Out SJVN’s Take on “8”

  1. Liar. Troll.

    I have my own basis of experience.

  2. Greg Roven says:

    “Thanks for a refreshing point of view. If I believed what some visitors claim, ‘7’ never refuses to boot and I am a fool for using FLOSS without trying ‘7’.”

    Fascinating. So you refuse to believe visitors claiming that Windows 7 works for them, but without hesitation choose to believe a random visitor (namely me) who claims that he’s a GNU/Linux convert and his “Windows 7 died for inexplicable reasons”. You’re a real piece of work, Robert.

    Your claims are laughable.
    Your “proofs” are laughable.
    GNU/Linux is laughable.
    You are laughable.

    I’m Greg Roven, and I don’t use GNU/Linux.

  3. oldman wrote about “you r insistence on talking about things that you seem to know nothing about.”

    Some things are known without actually experiencing them from indirect evidence like what M$’s leadership was thinking when they messed with Netscape or cranked out Lose ’95. I also experienced the result of those operations which were done with serious malicious intent yet others, on faith alone, would have me ignore history. M$ could not pay me enough to use their software.

  4. Yep. He did some science experiments but he was persecuted for holding ideas different than the establishment.

  5. oldman says:

    “Sorry, but GNU/Linux is my default OS and FLOSS meets most of my needs for software.”

    That has never been the dispute Pog. What has is you r insistence on talking about things that you seem to know nothing about.

    It is one thing to make ones point, but I believe that in the end, this is your blog. If there is a point that I believe is important that you dont, then there is nothing that I can do to make you believe it.

    It is your blog after all.

    E pur si muove…

  6. oldman says:

    Do you know anything about Galileo, Pog?

  7. Are you off the “home” row, oldman?

    Nope. According to Translate.Google.com it’s Italian for “And yet it moves”.

  8. Thanks for a refreshing point of view. If I believed what some visitors claim, “7” never refuses to boot and I am a fool for using FLOSS without trying “7”. Sorry, but GNU/Linux is my default OS and FLOSS meets most of my needs for software.

    Debian GNU/Linux is half-way to the next release but the bug-count is too large to risk. I have implemented dozens of packages from testing so far and they seem to work. I brought in libreoffice that way but it was not easy.

  9. Greg Roven says:

    It was about damn time. And good riddance to both of them. Sorry, I don’t usually comment here, I just enjoy the read (being a fairly recent GNU/Linux convert myself). But these two clowns were really getting on my nerves.

    Great blog, Robert. Keep up the good work and don’t let yourself be put off by pathetic people like that. They obviously don’t have lives.

    Thank God my son’s girlfriend (nice role reversal; she knows computers, he uses a Mac) introduced me to GNU/Linux when my laptop’s Windows 7 died for inexplicable reasons, and wouldn’t boot. I’ve been using Linux Mint since then, haven’t looked back once. It’s not quite pure Debian yet, but as I learn I hope to get there.

  10. oldman says:

    E pur si muove…

  11. That’s it. ThoRa is banned, along with Contrarian. I am fed up with the ad hominem junk. Go start your own blogs or comment elsewhere.

  12. oiaohm says:

    ThoRa
    “Do what you want whenever you want without necessarily being qualified. I believe in our modern society that’s called “hobby”.”

    I am fully formally qualified for everything I do. My work is no hobby. City people have the means to ring a number and call a cabler and normally have them in a day. Me if I am not a cabler I could be waiting a week at least for one.

    Same with being a IT admin and the other roles. Its all about being able to be dropped in the middle of nowhere with no other IT staff or other support like cablers inside 200+ kms and being able to get the job done. If you are lucky you have picked up a local untrained person as a off sider really lucky a local electrician.

    Yes some of the cars out there are scary. Like no breaks. So you have to be part safety inspector as well or you end up dead for quite predictable reasons. Ie driving car go to put foot on brake and find no brakes at all because the person who has been driving it has been gear braking all the time. No second chance from a mistake like that if it causes you to crash. Because by the time someone reports you missing nature will have taken care of you. Reckless people will not last a year.

    Really that explains what I am. I have to be a self supporting person to setup IT hardware. Currently my only weakness are that 1 I cannot build buildings to house the stuff. Not a major problem just ship it designed into a shipping container and leave the shipping container on site forever. Next is that I am not a electrician yet so I cannot do the remote solar setup connect or connecting to mains.

    There is no formal title for people doing what I do other than a very long winded one sticking all the titles one after another.

    “Rural Australia. Is that why your English is sometimes barely comprehensible?”

    Partly. If I have been solo somewhere my dyslexia can be major-ally worse. I have dyslexia all the time. It does badly screw around with my english skill.

    Part of the reason I end up typing in here or other sites on-line if I am out somewhere solo in the hope I don’t fall into very bad dyslexia habits. Yes you guys complain about sections being unreadable are helpful.

  13. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian. Applications have to mix in with the desktop the user is using.

    Have you not heard the OS X people complain loud and long because you serve them up a QT application that does not look part of there desktop.

    This is fit in. The Application better look like it meant to be there. When you mix new Metro with old Win forms they really don’t really look like they are part of the desktop.

    Future Proof is so developers will not have to be recoding applications in future.

    Basically for how bad Metro fits in on old style desktops I might has well go Android application running contained on Windows.

    Developers don’t have the nice fact of hey user just switched to old interface I will now just use winforms code. This means more coding not profitable.

    Windows 8 has failed to make Metro applications and winforms applications seamless.

    Thinking just because you can turn the interface on and off that you have solved the problem is being an idiot Contrarian. You are not thinking from the poor coder and company who has to meet the look requirement.

    Maybe by Windows 9 MS might have fixed the look issue.

    Contrarian the issue here you guys are not use to battling with a person who works across most fields of IT. I guess you never have the issue of having to the only person sent out to solve a problem. To a place where it may take days to get another person with a different skill set also it can be accommodation issues. Some mining towns the room is more than my wages. So it is really expensive to send more staff so you train your staff to be multi skilled.

    People doing my role end up with many different job titles and many different pay rates. Depending on what task I am performing is the pay rate I get paid.

    Notice something cabler is person who puts the phone, data and secuirty cables in the buildings or repairs that wiring. Reason why I need that skill is that some sites can have rat/mice damage. This is why the network has failed.

    It can also turn out that application that has been provided has a bug. So I can be fixing this on site while I am there. So application developer with prime focus on debugging and patching and logging the patch alteration up the line for inspection. So yes when new stuff like android 4 that is intended to be used for particular things I have to go threw the same training as the coding teams. So guess what I am having todo at the momement. Yes some of these businesses do have the source code on site since they do pay to have the source code to the application the had coded. So guess what I am doing at the moment. My certification of skill to patch up applications for android 4 with the changes to the API. Also updating android 2 and android 3 applications to work with android 4 perfectly.

    IT Support person/Trainer. So newly deployed system I can be training staff how to use it. So yes I am a qualified trainer as well to national standards with Australia wide recognition. Yes so if they need white cards or other certifications that I have I can be doing them if required.

    Forensic Data loss investigator to work out if inside job or other wise. This is why I have to be able to build psychical profiles.

    First stage onsite data recovery specialist. Yes this is mirror copy the harddrive run file recovery tools and if required data not recovered send harddrive to bigger centre for next level data recovery yes the mess pull drive apart and fit into new drive and other clean room requiring evils. Of course these processes must be followed exactly so I do not destroy chance of data recovery.

    Network design architect. For new deployments out there normally to design the network and setup shipping of require parts to build the network the next time I or another one of us is in area as well as setting up electrician to install all require power points. Reason why some of us might be upgraded to electricians so this is removed so reducing costs and time issues.

    Customer consoling to help them choose software.

    Secuirty and monitoring system installer for remote deployments.

    This is the simple point. I have to do all IT admin and sales roles. All of the data wiring requirements and most of what would fall under secuirty as well daily.

    Contrarian the issue I have there is no title that exactly covers my complete job. So I have about 6 commonly used titles none of them fit perfectly and about another 10 for odd things. Like I am a qualified bar tender and fencing contractor not ones that I use that often good when you are stuck for some reason out in the middle of no where due to transport failures.

    Like Jack of all Trades is not true ether. I am not normally a wood or metal worker.

    Yes fencing contractor is handy when you have dropped a shipping container data-centre somewhere and are hooking it up and having cattle, sheep and wild creatures annoy the hell out of you.

    Is my poor english a issue. In fact no. Reason lot of people don’t like the work even that it pays well.

    Also due to operating solo so much I have to spend so much time doing legal certification on contract and other sections of law. So so much time working as a legal research assistant a year is part of my job.

    Yes in one way my job is a nightmare. I have too many laws and regs to worry about. Another way its fun you never know what the next day will bring.

    Of course you can bet one title I am 100 percent not.

    I am not a technically writer or any other documentation production person. So that is a set of titles you can delete from being me.

    Basically you are so smart Contrarian design a title that covers just the stuff I describe. This should explain why I don’t just have one title.

  14. ThoRa says:

    “Contrarian you are the idiot. Developers have to try to future proof self and fit in. Windows 8 running a mixture of metro designed applications an old winforms is going to look horid.”

    It is? And here I thought that this was called backwards compatibility and user friendliness. You know, unlike how it’s handled in the Linux world, where Gnome 2 and KDE 3.5, which, when viewed with the low standards of Linux users in mind, were two perfectly fine products, couldn’t get shoved out fast enough, in order to dump the half-baked, horrid greatness that are Unity, Gnome 3, and KDE4 onto us.

    “oldman simple fact of the matter I don’t have just one job title.”

    My guess would be that you don’t have any job title at all.

    “I never said I did any job always full time. So I am one of those rare highly broad people.”

    Oh, striving to reach the Marxist utopian ideal? Do what you want whenever you want without necessarily being qualified. I believe in our modern society that’s called “hobby”.

    “List of my titles is long. What happens when you have to operate at times solo in rural Australia. If you cannot do it your are stuffed.”

    Rural Australia. Is that why your English is sometimes barely comprehensible?

  15. Contrarian says:

    “Contrarian you are the idiot. Developers have to try to future proof self and fit in.”

    Whatever that may mean, #oiaohm. Maybe one of your home boys can translate that into English for you.

    “I don’t have just one job title.”

    I suspect that you do not have any job title, #oiaohm. You probably have more than one label, though.

  16. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian and oldman. ICS contains something very much like virtual desktops in the GUI design. You code an application on small screen the application has mult panels that you swap between with actions. So effectively making an application that needs larger screen operational on a small screen. Exactly what virtual desktop on X11 was designed to allow.

    Large screen all the active panels can be displayed at once so requiring less user memory about what they are doing. This is something new. Something Metro and OSi application frameworks don’t have.

    Contrarian you are the idiot. Developers have to try to future proof self and fit in. Windows 8 running a mixture of metro designed applications an old winforms is going to look horid.

    Still metro is still code two different applicaton for handheld and desktop and a different one again to blend in on a windows form based desktop. Not something I look forward to. ICS is one application for both.

    oldman simple fact of the matter I don’t have just one job title. I am a trouble shooter would be the closest description to my tittle. Depending on what is wrong depends on what skill sets I have to be using.

    This is anything from building computers from scratch to coding up custom software to designing new networks to deploying new secuirty systems.

    I never said I did any job always full time. So I am one of those rare highly broad people.

    Yes I am a qualified cabler as well so I can be rewiring buildings as well as putting network hardware in and being the network architect.

    One day I might be a qualified electrician as well. This would be very handy when servicing remote sites.

    List of my titles is long. What happens when you have to operate at times solo in rural Australia. If you cannot do it your are stuffed.

  17. oldman says:

    “Am I suspect too?”

    No Pog, because you primarily speak from the context of your past ten years experience, and when you make an argument based on that experience, while one can argue with it, it nonetheless rings true.

    This is as opposed to someone who appears to change his job title in response to the argument that he is attempting to win.

  18. ThoRa says:

    “He compares it to Lose 1. That’s right, ‘Twenty-five plus years of user-interface development and this, this, is what we get!? Scary isn’t it?'”

    Gee, Mr. Pogson, 20 years of Linux, and what have we got? KDE4, Gnome Shell, Unity. Three desktop environments with lots of blinking lights and gizmos and TRANSPARENCY, reeking of desperation. It’s sad, but Linux’s best user interface to this day probably remains the command line.

  19. People have to do what they have to do. In my life I have been a particle accelerator technician, a cyclotron operator, a computer programmer, a welder, an inventor, a ceramist, electronics designer, a house husband, a hunter (serial killer…), a teacher, and a computer system administrator. Am I suspect too?

  20. oldman says:

    ““I am application developer please remember this in future. Contrarian.”

    So now in addition to all of the other things you are you are a software developer, eh. Mr oiaohm.

    Sounds a bit suspect to me.

  21. Contrarian says:

    “Yes ICS the application does not need some special emulation mode and yes it will take advantage of the extra screen space a table has if you have designed your application correctly.”

    You are just spouting nonsense, #oiaohm. Please try to think of something that ICS can do that Metro cannot do.

  22. Contrarian says:

    “I am application developer please remember this in future. Contrarian.”

    You are merely an idiot, #oiaohm, that much is certain. Anyone can write traditional winform applications for Windows 8 and they work just like they did with Windows 7 or previous to that. If they prefer, they can take advantage of Metro features if they think their application will benefit thereby. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, #oiaohm, and all that has happened is that there are a couple more of them now. We are free to take our pick, eh?

    We could even create applications for Linux on the desktop if we thought there was anyone who might want to buy them.

  23. oiaohm says:

    Yes ICS the application does not need some special emulation mode and yes it will take advantage of the extra screen space a table has if you have designed your application correctly.

  24. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian I am referring as metro as the development sdk linked to it. ICS has added something for application design that makes creating application that runs on phone and tablet do so in a very effective method.

    Metro is not just a desktop you can switch away from its an graphical toolkit. I was not refering to the desktop you can turn on and off. I am application developer please remember this in future. Contrarian.

  25. Contrarian says:

    “Metro does not deal with the devil of different screen sizes very effectively.”

    I think you must have never tried it, #oiaohm. One tap of the Desktop tile (or click) and you are back in the Windows 7 form application world and you can just stay there forever. The tech preview is, of course, just that and I would suspect that the RTM will make that even a default condition for conventional PCs. Anyone who wants to run a tablet or phone app on their PC can then just tap that app’s icon to return to a compatibility mode for that app.

    “Basically google has announced something Earth shattering in what they are doing with ICS.”

    Can you supply an example of how that could be true?

  26. Contrarian says:

    “there’s no chance to ever get SJVN to see reason.”

    Think of him as a sort of FOSS copy of Sean Hannity or Rush Lumbaugh. He can draw a modest income from the page hits provided by both those who dislike Windows but cannot themselves effectively verbalize their thoughts and those who actually like Windows and need a focus for disliking its detractors. He is easy enough to ignore if you are in neither category.

    It is interesting to note that #pogson seems to often find fault with SJVN’s positions as being too accomodating of the Microsoft story. That is, I think, significant.

  27. Contrarian says:

    “People understand the perception management game your friends at Microsoft play.”

    Is that why they keep buying Windows and associated products from Microsoft? I think so, too. I think that you are wrong in believing that they do not agree with Microsoft, though.

    “They understand that Windows is as stale as software comes but promoted by idiotic bullies like yourself.”

    Well, I am not promoting Windows at all, #twitter, I am merely pointing out where your misperceptions of reality lie. To someone as warped as yourself, that nmay appear to be Windows promotion, but you have difficulty seeing almost everything in its correct frame.

    “This is why, despite billions in advertising, Microsoft is the most hated company in tech”

    Well they are still in the top ten of most admired companies on the Forbes’ list, #twitter. So maybe there is not much hate altogether in the world regarding tech companies. Hate seems rather pointless in any case. You could simply refuse to purchase their products, you know. #pogson and a couple of others have taken pains to point out how that can easily be done. #pogson has even suggested that, with so many opportunities today, it is inevitable that Microsoft will shortly be nothing more than a footnote in IT.

  28. oiaohm says:

    ch just a clue what makes Gimp compatible with what ICS has done is it multi window design.

  29. oiaohm says:

    ch you need to look at ICS. Something about this Android design is very interesting.

    It addresses the need of touch while still addressing the needs of non touch.

    ICS is designed for everything from small phones to tablets to full blown desktops using the same basic GUI code. Yes a true 1 application type runs everywhere. No special tweaking for one or the other.

    Metro does not deal with the devil of different screen sizes very effectively.

    Gimp can be made workable using the ICS model for tablets and phones. LO would have to be majorally altered.

    You really need to find out what ICS has done in its GUI design that is so interesting.

    Basically google has announced something Earth shattering in what they are doing with ICS.

  30. ch says:

    “ch You cannot help reviewers who are idiots.”

    I know, there’s no chance to ever get SJVN to see reason.

    “Metro was not designed to allow for that form of operation.”

    What do you mean ? Metro was designed for the smaller displays of smartphones and the bigger ones of tablets, so what’s the difference ?

    “Simple fact of the mater you have still stated no valid advantage to Windows 8.”

    First, that wasn’t my intention – I just wanted to point out some of the flaws in SJVN’s article (and Pogson’s comments). Second, MS has already announced a few goodies for Win8 – nothing earth-shaking, but some more stuff might be included in the coming year. But the main point is: MS now has (ok, will have) a plattform that runs on phones and tablets, too, with a UI fit for those devices. (Win7 runs on tablets but the UI just isn’t made for them, and WP7 uses the WinCE kernel.)

    “You have to recode to take advantage of metro.”

    Right. And that will be true for all apps that are to run on touchscreen devices: Would you want to use, say, LO or Gimp (with their current UIs) on a tablet, let alone a smartphone ? It’s a different UI paradigm, and one-size-fits-all doesn’t work. That’s why MacOS X and iOS have different UIs, and that’s why Android doesn’t use any *x-typical UI. So I’m curious how ICS will work on non-touchscreen devices.

  31. oiaohm says:

    ch You cannot help reviewers who are idiots.

    The style of Metro is not that new of a idea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager interfaces like Metro were messed around with before Microsoft even existed as company.

    Really look closer at ICS and other X11 tiling based solutions you start to see something common feeling.

    ICS is interesting. It contains a very interesting method for dealing with application being displayed on small and large screens.

    Metro was not designed to allow for that form of operation.

    Simple fact of the mater you have still stated no valid advantage to Windows 8. You have to recode to take advantage of metro. Where ICS one application phone, tablet and netbooks.

    The reviewer has only seen ICS on phone from the link you provided. ICS on tablet is very interesting. Particular when phone and tablet are running the same ICS application.

    Funny enough ICS was able to create a single interface type that does not suck for desktop usage. What is wrong with MS.

  32. ch says:

    Mr Pogson, I hate to break this to you, but you’ve been had: Obviously SJVN is pulling your leg, and you missed all the clues.

    First clue: His comparison to Win 1.0. What does that have to do with anything ?

    Next: He writes that the Metro GUI sucks on desktops (that is, anything without a touchscreen, and he is actually right about that). But haven’t you all told us that the desktop is dying, and it’s all about those “smart thingies” ? So why would that matter ?

    As usual, SJVN hasn’t properly done his research. I have the Win8 Developer Preview running in a VM, and it takes just one registry entry, and Metro is gone. Guess what will be the default on desktops in the shipping version ? There is a simple reason the preview features Metro that thick: It’s a _developers_ preview, and MS wants developers to get accustomed to Metro – there’s no need for them to get accustomed to the old UI, I believe.

    So Win8 will have one UI for touchy-feely devices, and one for non-touchy-feely. I think I have seen that decision before, where was it again ? Oh yes, Apple (MacOS X / iOS). Obviously that idea went nowhere 😉

    The final hint that SJVN is joking is of course that he actually writes Unity would be somehow better: Unity was – according to Canonical – explicitely _not_ written for tablets but for desktops, but the UI is better suited for operation with fingers on a touchscreen – or with the bloody keyboard – than with a mouse. How is that a better dekstop UI ?

    And the final joke – that even SJVN missed – is this:
    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/100591-android-4-0-a-coming-of-age-and-homage-to-windows-phone-7

    So your precious sandwich “pays homage to” Metro, and since we all now know that Metro is a desaster, what will happen to Android ?

    Yes, you were right this time: I had a fun time reading this. 🙂

  33. oiaohm says:

    JairJy failure to understand the market.

    Most home computer usage is driven by what OS the person uses at work and in education. Tablets is head to head with android and ipad. What is going to be a very tight price market.
    “Windows 8 will not have any advantage for business” This is a death sentence more ways than one.

    Education decides OS to use based on what there government demands and what businesses are using.

    Yes there are huge driving forces we are playing with here.

    MS makes more out android devices than what they make out Windows Phone 7 or most likely will make out the tablet market.

  34. twitter says:

    Keep howling, Contrarian. It’s not really working though. People understand the perception management game your friends at Microsoft play. They understand that Windows is as stale as software comes but promoted by idiotic bullies like yourself. This is why, despite billions in advertising, Microsoft is the most hated company in tech.

  35. JairJy says:

    Windows 8 will not have any advantage for business. Business will not upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 8. But that will not make 8 a fail, because I believe that Microsoft doesn’t are making Windows 8 for business, but for personal computers and tablets for users instead.

    The business will migrate to Windows 7. That’s a great advantage and Microsoft and MS will receive incomes anyway. WinXP is doomed in 2014 and for that time there will be Windows 7 and 8 being maintained. It doesn’t matter if Windows 8 will be adapted on the old market if it will take a new market. The success of Windows 7, and the success of Microsoft as a company will be made possible this.

    Think like when Microsoft launched the Xbox. They lost millions on the Xbox. But even if they weren’t gaining any revenue, MS bet on the videogames. Now they have a great position on the game industry, and the Xbox 360 is the console more sold in the United States.

  36. oiaohm says:

    oldman I have recently had a chance to play with the preview. I saw nothing that stood out as a brand new feature of any major use.

    Change of interface equals retraining. That is basically a minis quite a few.

    Now my issue is what is Windows 8. Stands. It is just a tech display like 2000 and Vista that is not going to be taken up in large numbers or is it offering something good?

    Oldman the problem is I still have not seen anything as a great advantage to business in Windows 8. Windows 7 was barely passable.

    I will be trueful when I looked at the preview of windows 7 I did not expect it to even have the update it has. Because I could not find any particular reason for business to move at all. I did not allow for the motivation of dieing hardware. But I could not find either any particular reason for business not to move with windows 7. Where with Vista I could find many. I did predict the Vista flop correctly and the 2000 and ME flops correctly. I did also in the day get the XP take off prediction right.

    With windows 8 I do have items that will be motivation for business not to move. Changes to the Windows ABI that could break the businesses internal apps is one.

    So far the advertising for Windows 8 has been more flash than substance. Basically what will Windows 8 do for me better than what Windows 7 or XP will. Why should a business move.

    That is what you need to answer if the answer is nothing you should consider skipping from Windows 7 to Windows 9. This saves on staff retraining.

    Of course with the time I spent playing with Windows 8 I might have missed the killer feature. If I have speak up.

  37. oldman says:

    “Now my issue is what is Windows 8. ”

    That is easy enough to answer, Mr .oiaohm, you just download the preview and try it.

    Have you downloaded the preview?

    Or would you rather just write reams of bushwah?

  38. oiaohm says:

    2001??Phenom XP what earth are you on.

    To be correct the slow buggy stuff is made up false facts. Windows 2000 was buggy for a lot of old applications. Lot of media if you read the 2001 reports were referring to Windows 2000 issues and since XP was based on Windows 2000 it would suffer from the same issues. XP had a better shim system that allowed it to run more windows 9x applications without issue. This became more known when Windows XP got out there.

    Yes the media bagging it were not talking about it but making projections from the failure Windows 2000.

    By end of 2002 the perception of XP had changed. Completely. Also the XP interface was not really new. New skin but stuff all basically in the same place.

    Yes by 2002 Linux hope was already blown by internal fighting and finding the fact that defacto standards made Linux desktops not that useful.

    Linux losing to XP has nothing todo with XP itself. Yes the process of bringing ODF to market started in 2002.

    Some of the false projection stuff happened with Vista vs 7. With vista businesses went out of there way to put XP back due to its issues. Windows 7 pro contains XP so it can run old applications. Where Vista does not.

    What is the most sold version of Windows 7 is a good question. Because if it professional up people are still buying XP and MS will still have to maintain XP to keep Windows 7 secure.

    Next is Windows 8 going to contain virtual machine to run 7 and XP?

    Issue for a business what productivity difference does Windows 7 do for them. Almost nothing other than working on new hardware better than XP. Since a lot of new hardware does not have XP drivers.

    So yes Windows 7 is only having uptake in the hardware replacement cycles. Reason it has not offered end users enough to make it worth swapping until they have to.

    The question you have to ask what is Windows 8 offering for business. If it is truly offering something good it will have a high take up.

    Already we know Windows 8 has broken some of the Windows API’s so it could be another Vista. In house software development is expensive so business don’t like having to redo it.

    Yes OS that sell or sold could be Windows 95, Windows 98se, Windows XP,Windows 7 and Windows 9.

    Windows 8 might be another skip over. With MS repairing the backwards compatibility in Windows 9 because ms has worked out they have to.

    Remember Windows 2000 was released before Windows ME. When users of Windows 98se would not migrate to windows 2000 because it was breaking too many of there applications ms rushed out the dog breakfast called Windows ME. Finally correctly addressed the backwards compatibility issue in XP.

    Then MS when on to create Vista that repeat the same mistake broke too many old applications then fixed it in Windows 7.

    What about Windows 8 does not make it another Windows 2000 or Vista. Yes Windows 2000 showed us the future but it was not usable for another 2 years until XP landed.

    MS failures make perfect sence when you start thinking I am a business what must work. Sales rates and features provided to business do line up. If you look closely at what business was offered with XP its higher than Windows 7 take up is explained.

    Now my issue is what is Windows 8. Some reports suggest another 2000 or Vista. Yes there are people out there who like 2000 to be correct love it. Just because something is going to flop does not mean it has to be universally hated or liked.

  39. Contrarian says:

    “Transparency is not new.”

    What was new with Windows was using transparency as an effect in the windows manager presentation, #pogson. That has been the history of success on the desktop for Microsoft. You don’t have to be first, and probably do not even want to be first, with some concept, but you have to make it popular. Just like the internet itself. It does not matter that someone else invented it or was first to offer a browser to the in-crowd, but it mattered a lot for Microsoft to make a browser a part of Windows and effectively present it to their customers.

    They have a lot of customers who never see anything new until Microsoft shows them the way. The FOSS proponents are too inept and impoverished to do that effectively, so guess what happens when Microsoft shows something new? People see it as a Microsoft thing and you have yet another moon to cause you to howl.

  40. JairJy says:

    Real Transparency isn’t just about modifying alpha levels of a window so you can see though it. Real Transparency is when parts of the interface are transparent, but some are 100% visible because are important for the user.

    The first time when I see those type of transparency was when Vista came out. KDE have it when KDE 4 came out, and GNOME time after that, when some guy hacked Murrine so can have this effect.

  41. Moxy says:

    Take that “transparent” AeroGlas desktop stuff. Where have we seen transparency before? Gimp. Gimp has been able to create images with transparency for many years.

    Are you high? Crack from the downtown core of Winnipeg? This sentence doesn’t even make sense.

    No wonder you’re unemployed and unemployable.

  42. Transparency is not new.

  43. Ivan says:

    SJVN clearly hasn’t tried Gnome 3 or Unity. Windows 8 is easily more useful and less annoying than either.

    “Take that “transparent” AeroGlas desktop stuff. Where have we seen transparency before? Gimp. Gimp has been able to create images with transparency for many years.”

    The gimp is clearly the pinnacle of interface development, why wouldn’t Microsoft and Apple copy it?

  44. Phenom says:

    Ohio, not only are you wrong again (about the networking issues of 2000, existing solely in that stange universe of yours), you have very short memory, too!

    When it came out in that distant 2001, XP was condemned as being slow, and buggy. The tech press poured buckets of crap on it, the new UI was mocked at, everyone was reportedly staying with Windows 98, and the Linux community was expecting Linux to beat Windows again.

    And, MS does not need to see a new version of Windows being an enourmous hit all over the world and configurations. They only need to be sure that they meet the latest requirements and trends. And that MS does astoundingly well with any version of Windows since 3.0, despite yours and Pog’s disliking.

  45. oiaohm says:

    Phenom XP did have a faster take up than windows 7.

    XP was offering people something the 98se most of them were using was not offering them. Yes there was a faster renew than projected hardware death rates with XP. Number one with XP was networking that worked. 2000 and ME both had there issues.

    Mind you I don’t think MS is going to see a windows 95 again where people bought it who did not even own a computer.

    Yes 95 was the high point in selling in MS history for the most success in a product push.

    Basically I am seeing nothing that makes Windows 8 as going to be an outstanding release in the class of XP or 95.

  46. Contrarian says:

    “He’s projecting a fiasco of Vista-like proportions. I hope he’s right. I enjoyed Vista.”

    Well, it is wonderful that you can go to your grave satisfied that justice has been done, #pogson! I am happy for you.

    But I must caution you that the whole matter may be just an illusion, another pipe dream in a long line of hopes that something will happen to cause Microsoft to fall from their lofty pedestal. Vista, despite bringing such a chuckle to FOSS fans and pundits like SJVN, didn’t harm Microsoft’s fortunes in any noticeable way and desktop Linux didn’t get any sort of shot in the arm thereby.

    Companies who were reluctant to commit to Vista due to the changes involved simply stayed with XP and paid for the “downgrade” licenses instead. Now the uptake of Windows 7 shows that there has been no harm done and Vista is just water under the bridge from long ago.

    What I see here with the SJVN article is just more evidence that Linux has no control over its fate. When the marketing plan becomes simply hoping that the competition shoots itself in the foot, it is time to reassess why you should even bother with Linux. Microsoft is more at the mercy of the times and tides that affect classic PCs overall. If more PCs are purchased, they will doubtless be almost all Windows PCs, whether Windows 8 or another version.

  47. Phenom says:

    Ohio, computers amortize and get renewed, and new computers have new hardware.

    And people do not upgrade because of the OS, but because of the software they choose. Newer software has more features, and consumes more memory and storage. Pretty normal, considering that memory and disk drivers only get cheaper in the long run.

    Btw, you are completely wrong as you are in 90% – Vista’s performance was poor due to low minimum requirements and hardware vendors installing it on sub-par machines. Not a single piece of new pc with 7 has suffered performance glitches, because hardware just got better, and 7 imposed no higher memory and cpu requirements than Vista. 7 was merely an usability enhancement, combined with several improvements in the kernel, mostly related to server development and security.

  48. oiaohm says:

    Phenom on speed of take up Windows 7 has been a disaster. There was no rush out there to buy new machines to get windows 7. Windows 7 has mostly been as people have been required to update hardware.

  49. Phenom says:

    SJVN – the guy who predicted that Windows 7 would be a complete failure and disaster.

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