GNU/Linux Rules in Brazil

I visited Dell’s Brazilian site. Hard to find anything Linux-like there…

Then I came upon this site:http://preco2.buscape.com.br/pc.html

FreeDOS (9)
Linux (563)
Mac OS X (4)
Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard (13)
Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard (9)
Mac OS X Leopard (7)
Mac OS X Server Snow Leopard (5)
Megalinux (1)
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Basic (143)
Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium (114)
Microsoft Windows 7 Professional (85)
Microsoft Windows 7 Starter (73)
Microsoft Windows Vista Business (25)
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic (18)
Microsoft Windows Vista Starter (28)
Microsoft Windows Vista Starter Edition (7)
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate (2)
Microsoft Windows XP Home Basic (15)
Microsoft Windows XP Professional (6)
Premium Windows 7 (1)
Windows Vista Home Premium (50)
Windows XP Home Edition (2)

Isn’t that refreshing? 563 hits for GNU/Linux. I clicked on a few models and GNU/Linux was all over the place. Isn’t Brazil wonderful?

Here’s a footnote on one modelDisclaimer: This PC comes with Linux operating system in Portuguese properly tested, all installation of software of dubious origin that may cause poor performance or damage to the product not covered under warranty.

Here’s a page with Linux and Vista models side by side showing the price difference (and 3gB RAM versus 2gB RAM to hold the bloat…). Isn’t competition on price and performance wonderful?

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology. Bookmark the permalink.

53 Responses to GNU/Linux Rules in Brazil

  1. Richard Chapman says:

    hey contarian, did you hear the one about the two maggots fighting in dead ernest?

  2. Contrarian says:

    “It’s not my problem to sort out the genuine honest-to-goodness Microsoft followers from the Microsoft paid shills. It’s yours.”

    I don’t see where it is a problem at all, #chapman. The only thing that I see is that you’re blind to anything but your own malformed opinions. If you have to believe that the only way for anyone to have a contrary opinion is for them to be in the pay of the evil Microsoft, then you have surely gone beyond the limits of reason. You don’t even understand the difference between doubting the wisdom of committing to the exclusive use of Linux and open source products and “shilling for Microsoft”.

  3. Richard Chapman says:

    “I never called you a paranoid…”

    Well you probably won’t know so I’ll count that as a minor victory. As far as lying, you’re damn right you do. You pretend you don’t know Android won’t be proprietary forever, every week. Every week you need to be reminded. That’s just one little aspect of your selective memory. As far as I’m concerned Contrarian, you’re a Microsoft TE. It’s not my problem to sort out the genuine honest-to-goodness Microsoft followers from the Microsoft paid shills. It’s yours. Microsoft poisoned those waters a long time ago and continues to do so. So anyone who “forgets” the facts and delivers the same prepackaged Microsoft garbage day in and day out is a Microsoft TE. If you have a problem with that, talk to Microsoft about it. Ask them to tell their paid Astroturfers, shills, TEs and anyone else on a payroll to boost Microsoft’s presence on the Internet to acknowledge themselves as such. Then that will clear up any confusion for those few who are really just there to defend their beloved Microsoft. Besides, I understand it’s illegal to not identify yourself as a paid booster when in fact you are.

  4. oldman says:

    “That’s your answer, #chapman? Fingers in the ears, chanting “Liar, liar, pants on fire!”? I guess that is what works for you.”

    You were expecting different?

  5. Contrarian says:

    That’s your answer, #chapman? Fingers in the ears, chanting “Liar, liar, pants on fire!”? I guess that is what works for you.

    “you call us paranoid or in need of a doctor”

    I never called you a paranoid, #chapman. Did you think that I did? Maybe it was someone else. Maybe it was just your imagination.

  6. Richard Chapman says:

    “Hardly a “rumor”, #chapman,..”

    Yes it is a rumor Contrarian. Your insistence on spewing the Microsoft party line doesn’t make true. Microsoft, once again, are trying to poison the community waters. They are trying very hard to frighten the hardware makers and the developers away from Android. You are a sad case Contrarian. Hardly anything you write here comes from your own heart and soul. You just repeat what Microsoft wants to see in the blogs. When you are called on it, you call us paranoid or in need of a doctor. Flat, uncreative insults. You come here and lie. You ignore the facts. And you insult those who set you straight. If you have any redeeming characteristics you have yet to reveal them here. You are so out of touch with reality that almost anyone can see right through your flimsy arguments. The shear volume of words you dump on Robert’s blog here and their repetitive nature are doing more harm than good to your beloved Microsoft. You are less of a person and more of a case the way you carry on day in and day out with the same monotonous grind.

    There really are better things to do than to constantly defend GNU/Linux against the lies you and your cohorts dump on us every day. That’s what we used to do before you came along, better things. You are very one dimensional Contrarian. All you do here is one thing and you don’t do that very well.

  7. Contrarian says:

    “Each member of the Open Handset Alliance is strongly committed to greater openness in the mobile ecosystem”

    “The check is in the mail.”

    “I will respect you in the morning.”

    “The government is here to help you.”

    “Come into my parlor” said the spider to the fly.

  8. “Each member of the Open Handset Alliance is strongly committed to greater openness in the mobile ecosystem. Increased openness will enable everyone in our industry to innovate more rapidly and respond better to consumers’ demands. Our first joint project as a new Alliance is Androidâ„¢. Android was built from the ground up with the explicit goal to be the first open, complete, and free platform created specifically for mobile devices.”

    “Inside track” does not fit well with openness.

  9. Contrarian says:

    “That is Microsoft’s hope and the rumor they are pushing but there is one thing for sure, it’s not your original thought”

    Hardly a “rumor”, #chapman, it is a logical suggestion to Motorola’s competitors that Motorola will now be running on an inside track that will give it an advantage over its competition when new developments occur in Android.

    Why did Lotus and WordPerfect shun Windows back in the early 1990s, eschewing Windows support for OS/2? Same reason, eh? They didn’t want to dignify the efforts of a competitor with a dependence on the competitor’s other product. Also a fear that something untoward could happen to torpedo their own efforts. That is the exact same situation that now arises with Android and Google’s acquisition of Motorola’s phone and tablet business.

    As to the rest of your specious claim, I did come to the thought on my own as soon as I heard the news. Perhaps your sluggish wits are not capable of any such thought and you take your cues from #pogson and others, but mine are, indeed, independent. The fact that they align with what Microsoft may have to say about the matter is purely due to both of us being intelligent enough to recognize the obvious, which you seem to miss.

  10. Good points.

    “ADS for non Windows clients are issues. Reason when MS thought up ADS never dreamed anyone else using it as well.”

    I understand that M$ deliberately revised SMB/CIFS repeatedly so that other systems would have difficulty authenticating/integrating thus retaining monopoly on the desktop and server. That’s probably the #2 reason that other OS is so prevalent. #1 for businesses/larger organizations. Fortunately for me I was in small growing organizations so lock-in was less. One place I did add a few GNU/Linux machines and tried to integrate to AD was a nightmare. Every username had a space, for instance… That was a feature of that other OS, not necessarily AD but it sure required some dancing to let GNOME work. I finally switched to XFCE4 which handled the problem more easily. Later when I tried to integrate a GNU/Linux terminal server, I found AD was letting us wait up to 30s. I watched the packets on the wire to verify that. Amazing that they could get away with sabotage like that. Of course, they might have been keeping XP waiting, too. I did not verify that.

  11. oiaohm says:

    ch some of the issue with ADS and non Windows OS’s is that the ADS ldap protocal interface is a bit mangled and not implemented correctly to ldap standard.

    ADS for non Windows clients are issues. Reason when MS thought up ADS never dreamed anyone else using it as well. http://freeipa.org is really ADS like idea but being designed more platform neutral.

    ch remember Novel was one of the parties that sued over what Microsoft did with ADS. Part of the process was breaking NDS / eDirectory interfaces in the year 2000.

    “you would always want to use a directory for all but the smallest installations.” In fact define small. MS define of small is wrong.

    In small business with everyone with laptops being able to run 20 machines without needing a directory would be a very good feature. What is the big issue with a directory is the same issue as with thin clients. You want to talk to a central server to approve stuff and do stuff. Sometimes that is more a pain in but than useful.

    Yes the 10 limit that MS has put in is requiring servers to be used when they would otherwise not be required and are in fact disruptive to operations at times.

    Robert Pogson you missed something.

    I have some bad news for people like ch most network printers these days support direct cups protocal(because a lot of network printers these days are bsd or Linux). So even in smb networks I end up with file sharing in smb and printing in cups protocols main reason central server gets a hick up clients can still print. The split of protocols is good.

    Reason why lot of printers are coming out with cups not smb as a while back they were. Microsoft got the bright spark idea of asking printer makers to pay them. Leading to IBM blowing stack. Since SMB is officially not Microsofts Protocal.

    Effect of that stupidity is going to take a few years to sort out as well.

  12. There are wireless thin clients and thin clients that are notebooks.

  13. It sometimes works but is overly complex. “Keep things simple” is a rule I live by in IT. Files are files. Printers are printers. Why should they be connected? For example, it is conceivable to have file sharing on one LAN and printers on another for security or whatever reason but SMB/CIFS makes that strange when it’s not. Also, imagine a system in which only the secretaries printed. Why have clutter on the other PCs? Imagine a system in which one day the printers all get changed. Why restart the file-sharing service just for that?

    See, modular is good. Complexity is bad.

  14. ch says:

    “What is silly, though, is connecting file and print sharing as SMB/CIFS. It is more efficient to use CUPS and NFS separately.”

    I fail to see the problem with SMB here – sorry, it just works. However I do recall the times when efficiency was actually a problem (10 MB unswitched in the 1990s), and back then our LAN masters had really bad things to say about the early versions of NFS (they were really that bad). NFS 3 fixed the main problem of those early versions, but for various reasons (including licensing) it wasn’t a good solution for PCs, so we staid with SMB (and some of us, NCP).

  15. ch says:

    “M$ uses complex protocols that were not until recently documented for FLOSS so there was little alternative for users of that other OS on the client to use AD for management.”

    Even before AD you could use Novell’s directory service (NDS / eDirectory), and of course there’s openLDAP (and probably I forgot something else). However, my point was that – regardless of client OS – you would always want to use a directory for all but the smallest installations. It seems that we actually agree on that point.

    “PTP works fine for even a hundred clients.”

    It works in the purely technical sense that yes, you can share stuff – but why would you make your life as an admin harder than necessary. Oh wait, you don’t:

    “We used thin clients so the “clients” were actually just the terminal servers, a few machines.”

    So you centralised even more than I would have done. Nice. BTW, in the company I’m working for allmost half the office workers have notebooks – there goes your thin client. But for a school environment I could see it being a good idea.

    “We did not use AD. We used openLDAP”

    Well using AD for *x clients might technically work, but I don’t think I would use it, either. It just seems … wrong, somehow. But I note that you did use a directory instead of editing hosts and passwd files – good.

  16. oiaohm says:

    ch The software infringement claim is unproven.

    “all installation of software of dubious origin that may cause poor performance or damage to the product not covered under warranty.”

    This warning also applies to infringement installed copys of MS Office on Windows and fake anti-virus software and so on.

    Simple fact that issue is global. Getting working pirate copies is not simple.

    ch
    “If you have more than 10 PCs, then peer-to-peer-sharing is A Bad Idea. (Do I really have to spell out the reasons for you ?)”

    Do try I will rip you to shreds. Because you have a myth. Please note that Apple talk is rated peer to peer for more than 50 machines. bonjour/zeroconf is safe to go to a few 100 machines p2p without issues in fact a few thousand has been done. In fact windows networking with windows 98 that did not have the connection limit would operate safely to about 20 to 30 machines without a server. Issue was a fixed size buffer for machine names and addresses. Not a network traffic issue.

    Also clustering Linux world does all the time does p2p in the thousands of machines. 10 is simple a complete artificial limit. If you were talking 50 machine limit there are some issues that can appear at that level. That would require Microsoft to alter there p2p protocol a little.

    In fact if you don’t care about windows updates you can hack the limit out of XP and Windows 7. When you do you see that the p2p of windows is really operational way past 10. In fact the scary fact is less network traffic than running the windows central server upto about 30 to 40 machines. Yes the windows server is way to noisily for some reason.

  17. Richard Chapman says:

    “What has changed is that Google did not used to be a competitor in the phone and tablet business and surely will be once the Motorola purchase is final.”

    That is Microsoft’s hope and the rumor they are pushing but there is one thing for sure, it’s not your original thought. You are just passing it on. You must not have any mirrors in your house.

  18. FUD, FUD and more FUD…

    see http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/build.git;a=summary . All the 2.x stuff is there and uptodate. 3.x is partly FLOSS (like the kernel) and partly closed at the moment. The intention is that 4.x will be FLOSS. They want a unified platform for all gadgets and they don’t want 3.x on phones.

    see BusinessWeek

    So, it is not correct to say that “Android is proprietary” but it would be correct to say that portions of 3.x are not FLOSS. Google has always said Android is “open source” and will be.

  19. Contrarian says:

    “You have taken your cue from Microsoft and are trying to tarnish Google by spreading a lie that Android will be proprietary”

    Android is already proprietary, #chapman. What tree have you been living in? What has changed is that Google did not used to be a competitor in the phone and tablet business and surely will be once the Motorola purchase is final. Go ahead and pretend that does not matter. It makes you look cute and amusing.

  20. ch wrote, “Please explain what the client OS has to do with wanting a directory service on the servers for easier administration ?”

    M$ uses complex protocols that were not until recently documented for FLOSS so there was little alternative for users of that other OS on the client to use AD for management. The EU fined M$ over the practice but after a decade, it was well-entrenched in IT.

    ch wrote, “What in the world does the EULA have to do with wanting central file and print servers ? If you have more than 10 PCs, then peer-to-peer-sharing is A Bad Idea. (Do I really have to spell out the reasons for you ?)”

    PTP works fine for even a hundred clients. Client/server works better for larger deployments but PTP can do for most of us. What is silly, though, is connecting file and print sharing as SMB/CIFS. It is more efficient to use CUPS and NFS separately. I am assuming networked printers…

    ch wrote, “Obviously you have no personal experience with professional IT administration on a slightly larger scale.”

    Most PCs are not involved in huge organizations just as most of use have PCs at home and we work for small and medium-sized businesses. I have worked in schools with up to 4000 students and have designed and built the entire IT system for a school of 500 students and 64 staff, each with an account. GNU/Linux just hummed there. We did not use AD. We used openLDAP, CUPS and NFS. It was snappier than the usual thick clients and cost half as much and many fewer problems. We used thin clients so the “clients” were actually just the terminal servers, a few machines. Simple. Fast. Reliable.

  21. ch says:

    “That’s because it costs very little to issue a licence compared to doing actual work.”

    Right, and that means exactly what ? Oh, I’ve got it: Apples are (often) red and water is wet, so I am right here.

    (I assume that selling billions of licenses actually involves quite some work, but producing products like Windows, MSO and so on is probably a lot more work.)

    “We’d rather not pay employees who don’t do much work so why pay IT businesses who do little?”

    And what does this mean ? Obviously you can’t mean MS because they actually do a lot of work and produce new stuff.

    Carsten

  22. ch says:

    “When you have a desktop OS that is so helpless, AD becomes almost a necessity.”

    Please explain what the client OS has to do with wanting a directory service on the servers for easier administration ? When you have more than a handful of Clients with whatever OS, then editing hosts and passwd doesn’t hack it anymore. There is a good reason Yellow Pages / Network Information Service and LDAP were developed, and the reason wasn’t Windows.

    “When you have an EULA that is so restrictive, file/print sharing must be done on a server.”

    What in the world does the EULA have to do with wanting central file and print servers ? If you have more than 10 PCs, then peer-to-peer-sharing is A Bad Idea. (Do I really have to spell out the reasons for you ?)

    “When you have those servers cluttering up the place, it makes some sense to copy that mistak by running other services on similar servers.”

    When you are using one OS on the clients (for a good reason, actually) then it makes sense to use that same OS on the servers so your admins only need to know one OS well, yes. In bigger installations you might want to use other server OSes for specific tasks (web servers, firewalls and SAP servers may well run on something *x since here Windows doesn’t offer that much of an advantage), but for the basics (file, print, directory) Windows is actually a good choice because it makes administration a lot easier.

    Obviously you have no personal experience with professional IT administration on a slightly larger scale. I happen to work in a really big company, we use *x for some purposes but mostly it’s Windows – and this is neither because we wouldn’t know anything else nor because our management is dumb / in bed with MS / loves to waste money. Seriously, do you really believe you are more intelligent / knowledgeable than those thousands of IT departments that operate Windows servers and clients ? Or could it be – just maybe, of course – that some of them actually know what they are doing ? A shocking idea, I know.

    Carsten

  23. GNU/Linux is more popular than FreeDOS. Explain that… Why bother putting more software on the drive only to have it replaced? FreeDOS is actually used by some folks with legacy hardware but is mostly a placeholder to ensure operation of hardware. That works for people who do install their favourite brand of GNU/Linux rather than the system-builder’s.

  24. ch wrote, “earned almost 19 billions, the “Business Division” (selling MSO and other products) made 14 billions. Seems that Windows is still of some importance.”

    That’s because it costs very little to issue a licence compared to doing actual work. We’d rather not pay employees who don’t do much work so why pay IT businesses who do little?

  25. ch wrote, “you will find lots of Windows servers running AD, file, print, Exchange, Sharepoint, even a lot of DB servers “.

    Yep. I’ve seen that in education. When you have a desktop OS that is so helpless, AD becomes almost a necessity. When you have an EULA that is so restrictive, file/print sharing must be done on a server. When you have those servers cluttering up the place, it makes some sense to copy that mistak by running other services on similar servers. The initial error is relying on that other OS for the clients…

  26. ch says:

    @Uiri:
    “Windows domination on servers is a myth, the only places which use Windows server are the government and institutions like banks which could still have legacy applications written in COBOL.”

    Those COBOl applications typically _do_not_ run on Windows, try Z/OS instead …

    Last year, the WP page “Usage share of Operating Systems” showed this interesting statistics:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Usage_share_of_operating_systems&oldid=379301547#Servers
    (Unfortunately, it has since been replaced by one focussing on web servers and leaving out most of the details of this version.)

    So what can we learn ? Unix has a far higher share of revenues than units – think “Big Iron”. Linux is big on web servers in general, but on those with SSL certificates (indicating something worth protecting is running on them, eg online shops) it virtually ties with Windows. On servers in general, Windows runs on 75% of units – given that on web servers it is much less popular, it must have way more than 75% on non-web servers. If you want to know why, just work in the IT department of some big company – you will find lots of Windows servers running AD, file, print, Exchange, Sharepoint, even a lot of DB servers …

  27. ch says:

    Re MS earnings:
    http://www.microsoft.com/investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/PressReleaseAndWebcast/FY11/Q4/default.aspx

    The divisions “Windows & Windows Live” and “Server and Tools” (both sell Windows and other products)
    between them earned almost 19 billions, the “Business Division” (selling MSO and other products) made 14 billions. Seems that Windows is still of some importance.

  28. ch says:

    Mr Pogson,

    may I once again help you with translation ?

    You quote this Brazilian website: “all installation of software of dubious origin that may cause poor performance or damage to the product not covered under warranty.”
    In plain English, this means: “This PC is so cheap because we put only Linux on it. We know that you will install your pirated copies of Windows and MSO on it, but then you loose the warranty (another reason this PC is so cheap).”

    Seriously, do you think anyone buying one of the PCs with FreeDOS will be _using_ DOS ?

    HTH
    Carsten

  29. bilbophile says:

    Richard Chapman: “Your entire defense of Microsoft relies on what Microsoft has been, not where it’s going… Microsoft is big and powerful”.

    contrarian: “Microsoft is important to today’s computer market not because of where it has been or where it is going. Rather, it is important for where it is today”.

    I guess this sums up argument (company names such as AOL, WordPerfect or Netscape come to my mind).

  30. Richard Chapman says:

    “I will have to admit, #chapman, that almost anything sounds ridiculous when you say it.”

    That’s the way you hear it. Enjoy the laugh on my behalf, I don’t mind at all. An idiot will laugh a almost anything.

    “Rather, it is important for where it is today.”

    According to the stock market where Microsoft is today is where it was ten years ago.

    “Google seems to be willing to help them along by turning Android into a proprietary item…”

    You know, I’ve never heard either you are any of your devoted Microsoft buddies ever mention the fact that Microsoft had a seven year jump on Google in the mobile phone OS market. Google comes out with a mobile phone OS and suddenly Microsoft resets their mobile phone OS odometer. Just like you, they change the facts to fit the story they’d like everyone to believe. You have taken your cue from Microsoft and are trying to tarnish Google by spreading a lie that Android will be proprietary.

    The world according to Contrarian. Must be nice. When facts don’t agree with your fairy tale, make up new ones. You’re a piece of work Contrarian and your words are a joke.

  31. Contrarian says:

    “Do you see how ridiculous it sounds when I say it?”

    I will have to admit, #chapman, that almost anything sounds ridiculous when you say it. Microsoft is important to today’s computer market not because of where it has been or where it is going. Rather, it is important for where it is today.

    I don’t know if Microsoft will pull a rabbit out of a hat in regard to smart phones and tablets. Certainly they will have a formidable task in going against Apple. Google seems to be willing to help them along by turning Android into a proprietary item, giving some opportunity for Microsoft to push WP7, but I don’t think there is very much money to be made in phone OS in any case. In that regard, it does not matter very much whether they have a popular phone/tablet OS or not.

  32. Richard Chapman says:

    “All a figment of your warped imagination, #chapman. See a doctor.”

    Is that the best you can do Contrarian. All a figment of your imagination, Contrarian. See a doctor.

    Do you see how ridiculous it sounds when I say it? It isn’t any different when you say it. Your insults are flat and not very original. Your entire defense of Microsoft relies on what Microsoft has been, not where it’s going. It doesn’t matter how big and powerful a ship is if it’s sinking. Microsoft is big and powerful. No one here is denying that. But Microsoft is not the company it once was. And you’re defending the Microsoft of the past, not the present.

  33. “Growth of revenue from the Microsoft Office system offerings, which generate over 90% of MBD revenue,”

  34. oiaohm says:

    Brazil is an example of how much education has to do with what computers sell.

    Most of Brazil education system is Linux. So the highest selling machines are Linux.

    Brazil has been growing in Linux sales.

    Contrarian Intel is well aware the Wintel is over. Arm/Mips + Something will be the victor unless Intel can get power usage down. x86 instructions and high power effectiveness don’t match.

    Big issue at this stage is that MS is only support Arm. Not Mips.

    Why is Mips important. Official processor of china Loongson is Mips. Basically Microsoft is currently disregarding a government of a few billion wishes to be self supplying. Yes this is a true future nightmare. China loves exporting always has hated importing. This is a historic trait going back before the 1000 BC. Its not going to change now.

    Dooms day is heading to Microsoft question is only how fast. Even of MS releases on Mips China still will keep there trait of hating imports.

    Advantage of Linux when dealing with China. Linux does not have to be a import. Its a shared tech.

    Brazil is one of the other countries that historically likes exporting and hates importing.

    India is a zone MS does not have a historic trade pattern against them.

    Yes China the biggest market on earth possibly for MS will not tolerate MS long term. India the second biggest is up for grabs but due to India close dealing with china MS may be in trouble there.

    The hard part for a lot of people to accept. Is only the small percentage of possible market for computers is developed. So small in fact that the dominance MS has even if they lose nothing from there current markets and just fails to grab the new markets they will be less than 30 percent of the market.

  35. Uiri says:

    I hate to rain on your parade Mr Pogson, but it seems that Microsoft has split all their different versions of Windows up so much that it just *looks* like there are more hits for GNU+Linux.

    The total for all the versions of Windows 7 is 416. The Vistas come in at 130. The XPs come in at 25. The total is 571, which is 8 hits more than GNU/Linux.

    Definitely still a win for GNU+Linux. I’d put its market share usage at 5%. Using web statistics is probably warped as users will likely try to emulate the most common operating system to avoid messages that their operating system isn’t supported even if a web site seems to otherwise display fine.

    As for µsoft, I think the only way they can save themselves is if the next X-BOX is ARM based and runs Windows 8 and they pull off something where Windows tablets are just like (or about as close as possible) to Windows desktops. People will use tablets with their desktop operating system for the same reason that the operating system they use at home will be the same as the one they use at work.

    Windows domination on servers is a myth, the only places which use Windows server are the government and institutions like banks which could still have legacy applications written in COBOL.

  36. Contrarian says:

    “That’s a death-blow for Wintel.”

    Well, never say die, #pogson! We expect nothing less from you.

  37. Contrarian says:

    ““Business division” is a larger source of income with that other cash cow.”

    Wello, I was talking of a product, not a division, #pogson. The business division has a number of products.

  38. Nope. “Business division” is a larger source of income with that other cash cow. M$ could make money porting that sucker to GNU/Linux to hedge their bets.

    It could also be on shaky legs if they cannot get “cloud” to work. OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice are making big inroads too. The truly locked-in will have to swallow higher prices if M$ is to maintain $21billion per annum.

  39. Contrarian wrote, “they remain fascinated with their PCs, too, and are not abandoning them in spite of your wishes.”

    Folks are finding their PCs are fine even when 8 years old. That’s a death-blow for Wintel. Folks are finding they do more on the web than on their PCs. That’s another fatal blow. M$ is going nowhere on the web and “8” is still vapourware. No upside in sight.

    OEMs are feeling freedom for the first time in decades. The biggies like HP are getting out of the business of supporting M$. Others are diversifying to ARMed thingies. Still other, new OEMs are going to ARM straight-away and not bothering to cater to M$. To compete, M$’s old OEMs will have to adopt ARM and */Linux.

    Then there are thin clients. Everyone’s using them and they don’t need that other OS at all.

  40. Contrarian says:

    “Microsoft’s best days are behind them.”

    You are not very perceptive, I fear. Microsoft’s best days are still with them by any measure. You could make a case that these great days are not likely to get any better, based on the world’s new fascination with phones and tablets, but they remain fascinated with their PCs, too, and are not abandoning them in spite of your wishes.

    “The World is a huge place but somehow Microsoft has managed to turn just about everyone against them. Sure there’s no shortage of dupes but the quality isn’t as good as it used to be.”

    Are you able to connect to the real world, #chapman? The dupes, as you say, are the same as ever, i.e. all the major retailers, the great majority of the OEMs, the peripheral device makers, and the planet’s computer users. Meanwhile, the Linux fans continue to number in the fractional digits in ters of appearances. Microsoft remains in the top ten most admired companies as well. Just wishing won’t make it so, #chapman, but perhaps you can continue to fool yourself. I understand it is not very hard to do.

    “The hardware manufactures are beginning to revolt.”

    All a figment of your warped imagination, #chapman. See a doctor.

  41. Contrarian says:

    “Nope.”

    Only $19B, #pogson? Wow, you are hard to impress. So why would you tout the Linux business at Novell which has ceased to be a going concern?

    I’ll amend my statement, though, to say “it remains one of their major sources of cash and their largest single source”. OK?

  42. Contrarian wrote, “it remains their major source of cash”. Nope. Only about 27% ($19 billion out of $69.9billion)comes from revenue from the client division.

    Novell’s GNU/Linux division did much better than the rest of the business.

    The impact of small cheap computers began with the netbook and has picked up steam with the smart phone and tablet. This is just the beginning. The small cheap computers will double and redouble because they are affordable in comparison to the PC. The mind-share that believes one cannot do much without a legacy computer is shrinking fast. It was only a few years ago that the desktop box was king and now it’s down to 40% share. Desktops have declined and notebooks have slowed. Notebooks are mobile and folks do a lot on mobile gadgets these days.

  43. Richard Chapman says:

    “You are far too eager to see Microsoft decline. It has ruined your sense of reality.”

    With the exception of dividends you’d be just as well off putting your money in your mattress than in Microsoft’s stock. It’s been flat for over ten years. Now, I don’t put much stock in the stock market. The way a company’s fortune can vary wildly from day to day just doesn’t make any sense. But if the stock market says you’re company is worthless, it’s worthless. If it says you’re flat, you’re not growing.

    You need to face the facts Contrarian. Microsoft’s best days are behind them. It’s not just FLOSS’ doing either. In some ways Microsoft is like the RIAA and the MPAA. Their business methods brought them great wealth in the last century but this is a new century and their business methods just don’t cut it anymore.

    Microsoft doesn’t understand real competition. What they can’t buy they destroy. When they can’t destroy a business they will try to poison the drinking well for that sector’s whole community. Like they tried with the Internet. Like they tried with Java. That’s how they compete.

    The World is a huge place but somehow Microsoft has managed to turn just about everyone against them. Sure there’s no shortage of dupes but the quality isn’t as good as it used to be. The hardware manufactures are beginning to revolt. That’s more than just a chink in Microsoft’s armor. It’s a gaping hole.

    As the days turn into months and the months turn into years Contrarian, your words turn into a joke.

  44. Contrarian says:

    “That is your belief unsupported by the evidence of SEC filings”

    Well, Windows provides over a billion dollars in operating profit per month, #pogson. If you want to gloat over a 2% reduction in sales from 2010 instead of a 23% increase from 2009, go ahead. But you surely are aware of the real numbers that say Windows is the most profitable thing that ever happened to Microsoft and it remains their major source of cash.

    Meanwhile companies like Novell that tried to re-invent themselves as Linux suppliers wither and die on the vine.

    Now it is true that the hundreds of millions of smart phone and table units that are shipping have taken some sort of toll on the PC market and Windows may be feeling that threat. But consider that there are more phones and tablets being shipped than all PCs and Macs put together and yet the impact is very slight. How big of a market will phones have to become before any real significant impact is felt by Microsoft on the Windows cash cow?

    You are far too eager to see Microsoft decline. It has ruined your sense of reality.

  45. Contrarian wrote of that other OS, “division will remain as a robust profit center”.

    That is your belief unsupported by the evidence of SEC filings. Revenue is dropping even as PC production increases. Shares of web stats are dropping. GNU/Linux, MacOS and Android/Linux are growing. One could argue the decline is small but it seems to be an inflection point where it will only get worse. One landmark is “7” which is supposedly the greatest version M$ ever produced and it’s not selling well at all. The quoted numbers show a reduced share of OEM shipments.

  46. Contrarian says:

    “Your position is …”

    Not my position at all, #chapman. Of course that isn’t comforting to your thesis, so I can see why you must resort to the straw man ploy. My position, compactly stated, is the Microsoft Windows is a mature, dominant product and that this Microsoft division will remain as a robust profit center until the end of the PC as a definable product. Linux is not a factor in that product market.

    For all your railing about “FLOSS” (heavy on the “L” in your amusing way), the only open source projects of any importance are the historic Linux, MySQL, Apache, and PHP. IIRC, the latter two are not even GPL, which I understand to be critical to earn the “L”, and MySQL seems to be moving toward a proprietary end.

    It is impossible for Microsoft to “lose” either. Certainly its current markets will someday go away, that is the fate of any technology with the march of time. But you and Linux cannot take any credit for that, it is simply the fate of any such thing. Did the Pennsylvania Railroad “lose” or did passenger trains pass into history as a consequence of the airplane? Or the once famous trans-Atlantic steamships?

    “The position of most GNU/Linux supporters is that GNU/Linux has bested Microsoft and the proprietary gang in general in most areas of IT with the one exception of the desktop.”

    That thought deserves specific attention, I think. Everyone in the proprietary software business is part of a “gang”? How silly you are!

    I have heard this mistaken notion from another of you FOSS fans, #oiaohm. Are you two derived from the same poster? Or are you just equally misled?

    I believe that I pointed out that Windows dominates servers as well as the desktop in replying to the original claim. #oiaohm struggled to find areas where Linux had a foothold, wireless routers being his primary effort, IIRC, but that was shown to be a frail reed.

  47. They cite “Operating system”. Linux is not an operating system, just the kernel of several different operating systems: GNU/Linux, Android/Linux, MeeGo, and WebOS to name a few. There are libraries, binary executables, scripts and services above the kernel and between the user’s GUI and the hardware.

  48. Richard Chapman says:

    “Depends on your status and point of view,…”

    Exactly Contrarian. And your point of view will never vary on GNU/Linux. No matter what the numbers are, not matter what the facts are. Your position is that GNU/Linux’ growth is stagnant at best. The position of most GNU/Linux supporters is that GNU/Linux has bested Microsoft and the proprietary gang in general in most areas of IT with the one exception of the desktop. And, that the influence of GNU/Linux in particular and FLOSS in general is growing while Microsoft and their gang is stagnant, in some divisions and losing ground in others. The only sector they’ve been able to muster any growth in is litigation.

    FLOSS is the new order so to speak. The Microsoft way of scorched Earth business methods is thankfully beginning to find its way into the history books. Don’t get me wrong like you always do. There’s a lot more destruction ahead. It’s going to be a long hard fight but the outcome is not in doubt. The World will win and Microsoft will lose.

  49. Contrarian says:

    BTW, there isn’t even a single hit for “GNU/Linux”. Only Linux itself is recognized anywhere there.

  50. Contrarian says:

    So why are all the offerings on the first page either Apple or Wintel? Best foot forward, they say. Or do you suppose the Brazilians are not aware of that?

  51. Not featured? GNU/Linux heads the list of links/categories. That list is alphabetical 😉 GNU/Linux is also the largest number of hits.

  52. Contrarian says:

    “Isn’t Brazil wonderful?”

    Depends on your status and point of view, #pogson, just like anywhere else. Is Manitoba wonderful?

    One thing that I keep seeing, even with your flagship sites like this one, the computer models that are offered on the front page are Windows. This site is a little different since they also sell Macs and so feature the Apple products along with the various Wintel models. If you search for them, you can find Linux, but they are not featured and that seems to be a universal condition, even in the obscure corners of the earth that you have to search for proof that Linux is still viable.

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