“Christian” Stretched in the Mind of a Madman

Evidence is mounting that the mass murderer who bombed and then rampaged through a summer camp for youth in Norway acted alone, thinking he needed to change society… We are told he considered himself “christian” even though Christ is never reported to have killed anyone. No law or regulation will restrain such a deranged individual. People have to take care of themselves.

This nut-case hunted people until he ran out of ammunition. How many times do we need to see this kind of behaviour before police and society take action to provide a proper defence? Typically, police form a cordon to “contain” the perpetrator in these situations rather than assaulting him. That’s wrong, clearly, because the body count rises in the meantime. The notion that because the police do not have a complete picture of the situation that they should do nothing but get organized is too little and too late a response.

Questions that need to be asked and answered about this incident:

  • Why, out of hundreds on the island, did the people not swarm the individual and kill him promptly? One rifleman is helpless under the circumstances. People on the scene should be the first line of defense. We street-proof kids and teach them not to share peanut-butter. Why can we not teach them how to defend themselves? Why do we teach them to depend on police who are not there?
  • When were the police informed of the incident and how long did it take to get feet on the ground? In these days of smart phones, I suspect calls were prompt. Why did it take 90 minutes to arrest the guy and why did he run out of ammunition before that happened? It does not matter that police have worked out an “optimal” strategy for containing situations and published it in the textbooks. It matters that police take personal initiative to do their jobs.
  • Norway is one of the most armed societies on the planet. Why were there no firearms for defence on the island? Who planned the event with no plan for security? UPDATE There is a report that a policeman was on duty and was killed.
  • This guy took years to plan his attacks and wrote about it on-line and in a book released the day of the attack. Why was the alarm not raised immediately/sooner? Someone else knew. Someone else should have raised a warning. Heightened security on the day would have stopped the attack in progress.

see BBC – Norway gun suspect ‘acted alone’

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UPDATE I have read some of this nut-case’s manifesto. He spent nine years planning and implementing this project. His rationale is condensed into this statement:
” In order to successfully penetrate the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist media censorship we are forced to employ significantly more brutal and breath taking operations which will result in casualties. In order for the attack to gain an influential effect, assassinations and the use of weapons of mass destruction must be embraced. When employing such methods the Justiciar Knight becomes a force multiplier, he becomes a one-man army. The continuation of these “humiliating strikes” on the Multiculturalist system will contribute to destroy the cultural Marxist hegemony in Europe.”

He rails against Islam and somehow leaps to this conclusion. He details from every aspect how to carry out such attacks and never seems to weigh the cost/benefit, the fulcrum of reason. Like many mass killers this guy is intelligent but wrong, so wrong.

UPDATE Another blogger’s perspective on the manifesto is illuminating. see Al Jazeera – A manifesto for a Muslim-free Europe, an Infidel-free Middle East
By Imran Khan in Europe on Sun, 07/24/2011 – 4:20.

UPDATE The police have spoken stating that under the chaos of the bombing and lack of transportation their SWAT team did well to get there as fast as they did. Needless to say they seriously need to review organization, communication and transportation. A helicopter was unavailable… Ordinary police there do not carry firearms. At one point a sniper on the shore could have had the killer within range if a sniper were available. The island was only 500m from shore and news cameras were close enough to record some of the murders.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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18 Responses to “Christian” Stretched in the Mind of a Madman

  1. Have you ever fired a .223? The recoil is negligible in a rifle. In a hand-gun it might be a problem.

    Here is a YouTube video of a young lady firing .223 in several positions. She is light in weight and fires a light rifle but has no problem at all with recoil. Firing a full-bore rifle she might but with practice she could do that too. My son is half my weight and he can fire full-power hunting rounds with no difficulty. I have only fired one rifle in my life that ever banged a finger, the Mauser 98K, but it was firing a 192 grain bullet at 2200 ft/s. Wrapping fingers around the stock eliminates that problem. On that rifle, the slope of the stock and the relatively long space from the stock to the trigger guard makes a loose finger a target.

    see http://youtu.be/7LFUvgH2KCk

  2. oiaohm says:

    “cartridge is blocked at the ejection port there is no chance the next round will be chambered.”

    Some cheap clones of weapons the ejection port and the feed port are not correctly in alignment. They are also why sometimes they can explode in usage. Yes they are dangerous weapons out there.

    “There is not space for the empty and the full round and the bolt is blocked from closing by the empty shell.” Only apply to proper made weapons.

    Improperly made weapons ie cheap clones basically fakes that look like the real weapon but internally they are badly wrong. Yes what you said works against a solider or police or someone else with legal channel supplied weapons since weapons with defective design loading and ejection port alignments allowing loaded shell to be rammed into non ejected shell are not allowed to be sold.

    But when you have a criminal in front of you who might have a non safe weapon doing what you said is one hell of a risk. These are weapons that jam equal bang so criminal is stupid to be using them. Problem is criminals are mostly not known for having brains.

    Your force maths is badly off due to why the finger gets broken or cut off. Its the trigger cage that is the weapon the bit that prevents you from firing a gun by mistake. Yes the designs of them to prevent firing gun by mistake also makes them a weapon against your trigger finger when being disarmed.

    When but is pulled off shoulder and fired due to being pulled of shoulder the rifle does not move in a straight line its going to pivot. The trigger cage attempts to shear the trigger finger. .223 speed of recoil is just enough to break the finger or at min dislocate a joint so going to hurt like hell due the shape of the trigger cage will decide what happens. Badly its going to pivot right around the trigger finger.

    Issue here is that as the gun twists the trigger cage will force the trigger finger 100 percent straight and be applying to points of pressure on the finger going in exactly against to each other. This alone doubles the force on the finger. This is why the damage is very much equal to being shot by the bullet that is lighter than the gun from the gun recoil. Between lever effect and shearing effects the weight of gun is basically compensated for. Worse is that the fact the force end up rotating around a point close to the center of gravity of most guns. So most of the weight of the gun is removed from force reduction as well.

    Think about it do you like the idea of you trigger finger being straight with 1kg of force on the end of trying to bend it backwards and it cannot. At this point you should be able to see force required todo trigger finger major issues is not that much.

    This is why after a person is taught disarming why they are less likely to take a rifle to a crime.

    Some people will think cut off trigger cage. Side effect of this is person can get close to you can jam trigger. Again you still not fire or if weapon is automatic you will run out of clip. Also you will increase risk of shooting self. Yes trigger cage is an item you are dammed if you have it their you are dammed if you don’t.

    Now of course if you are trained in the method to disarm a rifle you can still break a person finger without them firing the gun by rotating the gun the right way while there finger is in the trigger. Basically the recoil is a help mostly speed. Speed to be faster than person means to tigten up to resist the rotation.

    Shearing the finger off 303 some guns(recoil suppression on some 303 reduce the force under shearing). Basically if you are going to pass out from blood and someone is holding a 303 or bigger and you do know how to disarm most likely a good idea to leave it to someone else if you can. Pass out from blood not a good thing todo after taking a part of the other person.

  3. A lot of what is written here is myth. I have seen a lot of firearms and self-loading actions don’t work that way. If a spent cartridge is blocked at the ejection port there is no chance the next round will be chambered. There is not space for the empty and the full round and the bolt is blocked from closing by the empty shell. The fed round cannot fire the round in front because it’s an empty.

    Recoil is about the mass and velocity of ejecta. A “full-bore” rifle will fire a 150 grain projectile in front of 40 grains of powder. The .223 fires a 55 grain projectile in front of 23 grains of powder. If we allow about five times the momentum for the powder because of its higher velocity after the bullet departs, we have 150+5X40=350 units of momentum for the big cartridge and 55+5X23=170 units of momentum, about a factor of two. I have seen children weighing 70 pounds or so have no problem with the .223 when it would be crazy to have them fire the heavier rifle. The California Grizzlies shooting team includes boys as young as 13 and girls as young as 17 firing .223. Some of them have competed at US national competitions.

  4. oiaohm says:

    “Rifles do not fire with the bolt open.”
    This is not 100 percent true. Don’t fire due to firing pin with bolt open.
    “Some of the cheaper made guns ie the clone rip offs. Do something like this shell still gets loaded but fired without breach closed leading to a blast out the ejection port so effectively clearing your hand and possibly you with it.”

    Note I said clone rip offs.

    Its the way the jam. You block the shell from going out breach gun still picks up the next bullet shoved it into the back of the first and due to Stupidly dangerous pressure applied bad things happen.

    Reason for the bang is not the firing pin. Its the bullet being shoved backwards into shell. I should have been more exact. Fired due to shell on shell impact. Put hand over ejection have very nasty things happening normally out the ejection port and normally leaving the gunman alive but the gun ruined and who ever had hand over port very badly hurt as the blast comes out that side.

    “The .223 is a very low recoiling firearm.” That has enough recoil to break a finger particularly when its in with the trigger cage. Yes the trigger cage being narrow focus the force of the gun. Basically its like being shot by the bullet on your finger that is through the trigger due to someone pulling the but off you shoulder. Yes but is a lot larger area so the recall force is bugger all while but is on shoulder but it turn scary once all that force is focused on point just happening to be the trigger finger. Yes a .223 breaks finger. 303 and up can take finger off as same action is done. Yes if trained to disarm unless its a really weak air riffle its going todo damage worse than brusing.

    “During the second world war, human-wave assaults were often successful, against machineguns supporting machineguns.” In fact no. You don’t want to see the numbers of human-wave assaults that just equaled all the assaulting people dead and no ground gained. Of course there was a percentage that got lucky. Really the idea that human-wave assaults without cover fire is why so many troops under British command died with no ground gained.

    Almost all the ones that made progress in second world war had cover fire of some form. Australian forces had a huge record of being used as cannon fodder. By the end of world war 2 going over the top was normally not the way. Dig trench into other side trench and attack along it. Yes Australian forces did not end up called diggers for no reason and it was a huge secret to why many battle fields Australians stayed alive where others died. Ie don’t attempt to go over top its a death sentence.

    20ft 2 seconds There is a problem. 1 attempting it will not make it. You need to form a group. 3 he need to let the group get close and not keep enough confusion that you cannot form up. On sand you will be lucky to do 10 ft in 2 seconds. The island was a really good selection. Natural features of it reduced your chances of being able to counter assult effectively.

    “hollow-point to soft-point ammunition.” So no rebounding off stuff. So go into forest and play a game of wack a mole. Yes its a mill tactic.

    Idea is the guy has 30 bullets you are appearing and disappearing he will waste shots when he has to reload that gives you the time to close up on the person.

    Of course it takes a gunman stupid enough to enter an area where you can play wack a mole with them.

    Most important thing about bullets is that a person can only have a limited supply.

    Going into water causing guy to fire at you and waste ammo is saving others. Going into trees causing the guy to waste ammo again is saving others.

  5. Thanks for the links. The information there more or less coincides with what I have read. Android/Linux is growing rapidly on ARM. I expect it to spill over to x86 and ARM as a PC too. While M$ takes years to produce “8”, Android/Linux can move much more quickly.

  6. radu says:

    I’m also impressed to not see a gun control angle from Mr Pogson. I also think there is no way of preventing a sociopath or a psychopath form acting according to his plans. The best one can hope for is to catch them before they act or when they start acting.

    It is very hard for a centralised rigid system to foresee all the ways in which an individual or a small group of determined people can organise an act of terror. Short of an ideal totalitarian government there is no way of achieving it. It is therefore better to rely on as many motivated and adequately prepared people in as many places as possible.

    In terms of gun rights I think this means that the right to own weapons should be supplemented by a proper training in safely and effectively using them. The most practical way to achieve this is to provide basic military training to all citizens, thus enabling them to identify and respond to a dangerous situations or to single out abnormal behaviours. Even those who object handling arms can be trained useful things such as first aid procedures.

    Gun controls played no role in the 9/11 attacks; security measures such as the locked door of the cockpit may have even prevented the passengers of flight 93 from retaking control of the plane; instead the free use of the mobile phones allowed them to send information on the hijacking.


    Mr Pogson, do you follow E.S. Raymonds blog, “Armed and Dangerous” (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3493)? He has written some interesting articles on the “Smartphone Wars”.

  7. The island is half-forested. There was lots of opportunity to organize a counter attack but, unfortunately, none succeeded.

    The .223 is a very low recoiling firearm. Even small children can fire it comfortably. Rifles do not fire with the bolt open. There are interlocks except for submachineguns with a fixed firing ping. If the empty does not get out, the next round will not feed and the bolt will not close and the rifle will not fire.

    The rate of fire is about 2s per shot aimed and 1s per shot just pointed, giving plenty of time for speedy youths to close distance from ambush rapidly. In 2s, a healthy young person can cover about 20ft from a standing start with motivation. During the second world war, human-wave assaults were often successful, against machineguns supporting machineguns. A lone rifleman is toast at close ranges.

    According to the document I read, he switched from hollow-point to soft-point ammunition. Neither are likely to pass through a human. Rather, they disintegrate on impact delivering about 1000 ft-lb of energy and are very lethal. Surgeons report the bullets more or less disintegrated causing massive bleeding. If full metal jacket ammunition had been used, there may have been many more casualties because bullets could pass through victims and might hit other victims but also there would be many more survivors. The guy was technically aware in spite of being deluded about his mission.

    This guy spent years planning and had back-up plans. There may have been no way to prevent the attack but it could have been made more limited by faster local response.

  8. oiaohm says:

    Linux Apostate “Criminals always have guns, areas with the tightest gun controls tend to also have the highest levels of gun violence”

    That complete disagrees with Australian numbers. Tighter gun laws with equal attempted murder charge being added for using a gun in a crime kinda reduced how much criminals wanted guns. Who wants 15 years when you could have had 5 just because you used a gun instead of a knife. Lower Criminal wish for guns by making it worse to use them.

    “Swarming would have worked. Close in from all sides.” Swarming only works if you can get to all sides. Gunman that planned normally clears area by area. So reducing odds of people being able to get to more than 1 side of him at a time. That Island is particular great in this regard. Since with the water behind you. The result is you have already cut out 180+ degrees of assault. Add other blockages like buildings and you have really restricted down the approach angles. Yes choice of a island reduced chances of being swarmed from many sides. So assault to gunman was very much like climbing a cliff without cover to the gunman. Remember the bullets from the gun don’t just stop at the person you shot at. Person behind the person you shot at can be dropped as well. 30 rounds per min is a hell of a number to get past with you have less than 180 degrees of attack to play with.

    I was thinking with all this planning he would have at least modified some guns from semi-automatic/self-loader to semi-automatic/self-loader with automatic option or from semi-automatic/self-loader to full auto if someone gets the idea of swarming.

    “the rifle can be disabled by holding a hand over the ejection port” In fact this is a strict don’t. Yes sometimes you can jam the gun this way safely. Some of the cheaper made guns ie the clone rip offs. Do something like this shell still gets loaded but fired without breach closed leading to a blast out the ejection port so effectively clearing your hand and possibly you with it.

    One you are close enough to person. Remember rifles have recoil. Once rifles is off shoulder the next time the person fires it normally disables their trigger finger on that hand with the force of recoil. In fact pulling but off shoulder you can make the rifles fire so leading to nicely smashed trigger finger. Yes I have done this one the pain of the broken finger is a great detraction so you can knock their block off with the but of the rifles. Person lived from the but hit because I missed the critical part of skull. To today I am not exactly sure I am happy about that since I still might run into the person again. Yes did make the ouch of finger better for the person since once they where knocked out they could not feel it any more.

    This way they cannot just let go of the rifle and grab another one if you don’t knock them out cold. Also the recoil allows you to take the gun complete there hands and have it yourself. Part Disabled and got a gun you cannot get much better. Disabling gun is the weaker move. Use rifles against holder.

    Person only has four fingers max normally that can be used to fire a gun. Ie two trigger fingers and two little fingers. Lets say my target is to take away means to resist.

    Pistols are the true 100 percent trouble to try to disarm and keep person alive. About the only counter attack to Pistol is turn it back against it user and fire it.

    Really using guns against people who know what they are doing and can get close to you is a death sentence in most cases. This is why criminals wanting guns is so stupid. Now education in schools on disarming would kinda discourage the idea of owning guns as well.

    Ok you have a Pistol this is how I would disarm it twist it and shot your head or hart with the gun you are holding. At this point having a gun no longer sounds like such a good idea. Baseball bat starts sounding better. At least if I disarm you with a Baseball bat you live in most cases.

    Note knife also does not sound good once you know the disarm methods.

  9. He was not a moron IMHO. He was wrong and spent years of his life and hundreds of thousands of Euros going the wrong way. Whether it was delusion or something else, he utterly lacked morals and social responsibility. In his manifesto he states that he planned to kill the sister of his landlord if she happened upon his bomb-making operation when she telephoned to say she was going to pick up some stuff from storage. He was perfectly willing to kill total innocents for no other reason than they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Lacking a conscience really helps people with wrong ideas pursue those ideas to extremes. This guy is right up there with Osama bin Laden on that count.

  10. The press reports state the guy had an automatic but it was a semi-automatic/self-loader, one shot with one pull of the trigger. He used 30 round magazines. Swarming would have worked. Close in from all sides. He can only aim in one direction at a time and can only fire about 30 rounds per minute. Once swarmed, the rifle can be disabled by holding a hand over the ejection port or removing the magazine. This would severely limit the deaths.

  11. Linux Apostate says:

    Contrarian, I’m impressed to NOT see a gun control angle from Mr Pogson. Criminals always have guns, areas with the tightest gun controls tend to also have the highest levels of gun violence, and if you stop someone like this buying guns at a proper shop they will just find some other way as oiaohm says.

    You know that war on drugs that some people insist cannot be won and should just be given up? The war on guns is like that too. Except more so, because there are legitimate reasons to own a gun.

    You cannot stop these crazies, and it is most unfortunate. The things he was angry about – well, some of them are things that people might reasonably be angry about – but still his response to them was completely irrational. Didn’t do anything to advance his goals… set them back, if anything. He spent 9 years planning THAT? Moron.

  12. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian the issue is there are many ways to make explosive.

    Ammonium nitrate fertilizer and other items are short cuts. Monitoring those is only good against those who want to be in and out quick.

    “It is a simple matter to regulate explosives as well as materials to create ammunition or ammunition itself.”

    “Hydrogen peroxide was the main ingredient in the 7 July 2005 London bombings that killed 52 London Underground and bus passengers.”

    So you are going to monitor all supplies of water and power usage. Yes with a little training little power + water you can make Hydrogen peroxide in huge volumes at 90 percent pure plus that is good for rocket fuel or explosive or other odd ball uses.

    The problem lot of chemical reactions the human body depends on if they were not done in a controlled way are also explosive. So they are many other great explosives in your local shopping center in food areas just needs processing.

    Its simpler to find drug labs than what it is to find explosive makers from aquired ingredient. Reason Drug labs need to keep their users alive at least enough to pay a few times so really cannot afford there drug 100 percent toxic. Where an explosive for a criminal act 100 percent toxic would be a bonus.

    Even the idea of tracking lab equipment does help much. Basic stuff you need to make a stack of different explosives can be done with basic normal pipe work that could be aquired from dumps or anywhere else. Again its that the gear required to make explosive does not have to be medically safe just has to work.

    Regulating materials to make explosives is basically impossible todo 100 percent.

    I do agree with regulate what we can but we should not think that will cure it alone.

    Firearms more countries need Australian gun laws. I am not allowed at all to own automatic weapons. Automatic weapons are the right of the police and mil only that have to go into deeper mental tests and the weapons tracked. So a person could not have a cache of them.

    Crime rate in Australia due to gun laws has not dropped that much. But crimes using guns has dropped massively. More hold ups these days are done with baseball bats and knives. There also has been less deaths here due to criminal events. Yes gun long range item someone panics for a split second someone hurt. Knife/baseball bat person panics who they attempt hit normally still stands a chance to be unhurt.

    Finding a person who will do this kind of crime is hard at the best of times. Yes weak gun laws and ammo supply laws did not help.

    Really he could have gone really basic and still killed all the kids. There are a lot of weapons you can make at home from general parts that can mass kill like a gun. In fact most of them are banned from armies using these days because they are too cruel of death. A water pistol can be a human killer just filled with the right chemicals. Yes bullets used by mil are in fact design to restrict damage to target.

    This is the complete problem. If a person wants to kill a stack of people no amount of regulation can stop them 100 percent. Best hope is public vigilance and medical vigilance to attempt detect that something is wrong with a person so they can get help.

    “no close relationships”. Cuba cured this problem. Every person in Cuba gets a doctor visit once every 6 months at min and part of that is making sure people are in good mental health. Better medical vigilance can reduce the risk of these problems. It also gets on top of other problems.

    Yes no close relationships or limited group of relationships is a common to of most of these attacks. More common than method or gear.

    Many countries really do need to look at there public medical systems if they want to prevent stuff like what just happened.

    Lot of the kids did the right thing. Most people are not aware being in water can be like putting on a bullet proof vest so the ones jump in the water even that the water was cold were doing the correct thing. They had a better chance in the water than on land even that the time they could be in the water for was limited.

    Also I am sorry 90 kids vs a gunman. If the gunman skilled there are not enough bodies there to over run him even as rushed attack with modern day automatic weapons. Now if he was using bolt action weapons yes. Since the a trained gunman would have started shooting from range. Australian SAS in war time combat have recorded as high as 50 to 1 holds against over run ie 50 attackers against 1 SAS with automatic weapons 100 to 1 and higher are suspected but not confirmed. With bolt action it is 10 to 1 the slower load time. Bolt action kids stood a chance. That is armed required to over run. Using covering fire to stop the 1 from firing and forcing the 1 to hide. Basically the poor kids did not stand a chance unless they could get close somehow. This is also very hard against a trained gunman.

    The 90 min to respond. Sounds long sound bad. Lets think about it for one moment. He is on a island. You don’t know where he is on the island clearly and you don’t know if he has rpg or equal you suspect he blew up a building so you have to presume he has more explosive. You all ready know he has killed a police officer.

    This is not really good or simple to work out how to deal with. Because you have to presume not only is the guy killing the kids. But is also prepared enough to have set traps to get anyone who attempts to stop him. So you have to check your way very carefully onto the island so you are not sending extra people to their death.

    Yes once out of ammo sending police in is now an option but still very carefully.

    Basically 90 min response time in a crisis like this is truly very good. Once you consider everything the police could not consider safe to get to the island.

  13. This guy started a farming business. He spent nine years planning everything in stages and implementing in stages so that nothing suspicious would arise. He even gave up women so that he would have no close relationships to dodge. The guy was utterly dedicated to his wrong cause. I doubt anything would have prevented him doing something but much could have been done to reduce the impact. If his raw materials were regulated enough to have prevented purchase, he would have made his own.

  14. Contrarian says:

    “This is not about firearms. It’s about madness”

    Exactly, but a good test for madness is the acquisition of these sorts of weapons by people who have no apparent use for them. In the USA today, you will come under the scrutiny of local law enforcement if you buy a large quantity of ammonium nitrate fertilizer without being a farmer known to the supplier. It is a simple matter to regulate explosives as well as materials to create ammunition or ammunition itself.

  15. I think part of the answer is that, when I was a lad, 75% of Canadians lived on the farm and took care of “business” on their own. Now 75% live in cities and expect police to arrive in 3 minutes… There are parts of Canada still where police cannot arrive for three days sometimes because of weather. It really does affect one’s views to have lived in different conditions than many folks find to be “normal”.

  16. The guy legally bought everything including fertilizer and other chemicals. He could have done more damage with the bomb on the island. This is not about firearms. It’s about madness. Any fuel-air mixture or poison could have killed many as well. The island is tiny and had hundreds of people with little or no shelter.

    see BLEM

    see Propane

    see Explosive Dust

    see Poison

    Firearms, explosives and government regulation are not the issue here. Madness is. What motivates a human being in the prime of life to deny life to others?

  17. Ray says:

    Well, the answer to the question was that people trust the police, and the homicide is only a third of Canada’s and an 8th of the US, so people there are more trusting.

    The answer to the last question is the matter of privacy, where people don’t want them to know their personal lives.

  18. Contrarian says:

    “This nut-case hunted people until he ran out of ammunition.”

    This incident highlights the danger to society posed by the very existence of these firearms and sources of ammunition. With a better control of gunpowder and pre-assembled ammunition, these madmen could be far better identified and thus prevented from such heinous acts.

    Firearms are too readily available to people with such marginal stability. Much stronger measures are needed for licensing of individuals allowed to have such weapons and even sricter measures to control access to the ammunition used.

    Just the act of buying an assault type weapon is a strong signal that the buyer is mentally impaired. It has no legitimate use anywhere and anyone seeking to own one should invite attention.

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