It’s Android/Linux, Folks!

Jeff Hoogland goes to great lengths to promote the idea that somehow Android/Linux is not a distro of Linux…

JH RP
Android’s kernel is a Fork So? Google took a snapshot of Linux and added drivers and stuff that changed Linux in ways that don’t work for other devices. That’s being worked on and the Android/Linux kernel will be remerged sooner or later. It would be more correct to say Android uses a patched Linux kernel. Android is using newer versions of the kernel all the time and 2.6.37 now includes features that may well accomplish what Android’s WakeLocks do.
Where is the brand name? Idiocy has no bounds as he argues that “Linux” in the brand name is lethal… Tell that to Red Hat (Red Hat Enterprise Linux) or Suse (Suse Linux Enterprise), which did make money and grew for Novell, or IBM which certifies Linux on all their systems, or ZaReason that sells only noOS or GNU/Linux PCs. Can these successful and growing businesses be wrong about the value of “Linux” in advertising?
Companies that don’t support Linux support Android Irrelevant. I don’t support M$ but I support personal computing. So what? That’s irrelevant. That’s probably wrong in the case of Android/Linux as well. Motorola which is big in Android in the market, has supported Linux phones for ages (A790 – 2003, i886 currently), and you can find FLOSS downloads of Linux-based products like Atrix WebTop.
“Android applications however are all java based, meaning you need an emulator like Alien Dalvik to get them to run on other platforms” Huh? Java is write once run everywhere. Dalvik has ports to other Distros as well. One can write native ARM applications that run in native mode on Android. The language in which an application is written has no bearing on what the operating system may be or may be called. Dalvik is a completely different virtual machine from JVM but it still runs on Linux.
Microsoft doesn’t make money off of Linux pre-installed Machines They won’t make money off of Android/Linux much longer either, because Google and Barnes and Noble and others will fight rather than pay the thug.
Where is the source code? see http://android.git.kernel.org/

Hoogland writes, “Yes Android is Linux based it is not however Linux any longer”

This confuses the idea that the kernel is the OS, something the rest of the world has known about for ages. The kernel is Linux. The distro/operating system is Android/Linux!

There is a video from an Android developer describing the operation of Android. In it he explicitly states that an Android process is a Linux process (4:00).

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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47 Responses to It’s Android/Linux, Folks!

  1. Well, that is something I don’t do, knowing only enough French to be dangerous… but I do write some large documents in English for systems that I have created. LyX just frees me from all the fiddly formatting stuff so I can write many pages at a time and only worry about the message. A few years ago, LyX had some serious bugs where one would have to edit the file separately to fix nesting. That seems to be corrected now and if I just use LyX as intended it can do a whole project with no fiddling. It helps to have a proper template for what you are doing but that is not that difficult. For me, the standard template and a Memo template are mostly what I need. It would by helpful to have a means of importing spreadsheets but it’s not a killer as I can convert most spreadsheets to images and import them that way.

    LyX is slowly developing because only a few developers are working on it but I have been using it for several years and it is good enough for what I do and superior to OpenOffice.org or M$’s office suite when it comes to creating the content.

  2. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson know the feeling about those LyX bugs most of them don’t bother me. Since I have always liked the toolbar on a different virtual screen so I have more space to see what I am doing.

    LyX is in fact WYSIWYG mostly and WYSIMYM full. Its a little hard to remain fully WYSIWYG when you can insert your own custom LaTeX functions without speed killing.

    Writing manuals are big projects pain in but projects needing the most tool assistance you can get.

    LaTeX might be old but it has a lot of things right in the document storage format. To be correct early LaTeX the first version in fact has many thing wrong. Second version is where it becomes more sane.

    This lack of means to include basic text string macros across multi documents is where LibreOffice fails me as well as in quality of formatting is not quite there yet.

    Basically I have 5 primary file groups. To make a manual.
    1 files of macros containing all the tex(not a typo) segments for each language text.
    2 files contain layout how those tex segments are places in final documents out. This can have a master for joining chapters.
    3 Master documents that binds layout to correct language.
    4 Master documents that bind Language master documents into groups.
    5 style formats documents for output

    Yes this is way different to a normal WYSIWYG work-flow. But it is one of the WYSIMYM work flow shapes. Multi documents to one done many times.

    \includefrom or \subincludefrom defined in master document setting language directory for text segments use to make each language documents.

    Lot of that can be recycled from manual to manual. The master documents are in fact small.

    Stacking of master documents is another area where libreoffice kinda gets lost. LaTeX has no issue doing it once you know the trick.

    Don’t say use the global library. Not a valid selection since I might be working on unrelated documents. I need macros shared between only related documents. In a way I can control.

    oldman is very right I have a well developed production system that I was taught. Its not that hard to learn. Result is less time to produce for multi language. Since its not reformat each time. Also its consistent between languages. If instructions in the english manual are on page 5 section 1 they will be on page 5 section 1 in all page based manuals. Same can apply to web and online manuals as well. This does make life simpler when having to support someone who does not speak english well for me but also have a copy of the manual in their language. You can refer them to sections of it.

    oldman it also does not take that much time to start the system fresh with no prior documents. Its just a highly effective path. I was trained how do it in under 1 day. Training you are not allowed to use any pre existing.

    This is the level of sync that makes Manuals really really good for support people. So keeping customers happy and support people happy.

    MS Office and Libreoffice does not help you that much when you need 100 percent the same layout in many languages. Libreoffice helps you more due to having master documents.

    The critical issue is SYNC between many versions of the same document in different languages. This is why MS Office is junk what I am required todo. It cannot meet a requirement. I guess oldman never once has had to produce multi copies of the same document in different languages to wake up where MS Office completely SUXs.

    There is the issue the simplest to use is LaTeX to meet the requirement.

  3. I use LyX which is a GUI on top a lot of the established layout stuff. Once all the bugs are out, real soon, it will be great. It’s the system I use for big projects because it scales. There is no noticeable slowdown with larger projects because the formatting is separate from the text. You only format when producing the printable output, say a PDF. It scales nicely. Other office suites are copying that behaviour by using XML but they still fiddle around with formatting during the production phase, a total waste of time.

    LyX works fine for me except there are a few annoying bugs which must be worked around. They are being fixed.

  4. oiaohm says:

    oldman
    “You dismiss out of hand windows based tools as inferior for all cases, when all you have demonstrated is that they do not fit your usage or your ideological framework.”

    This is where you are wrong. I do use active directory for client management of windows machines since currently its the best for that job.

    Powershell I have found highly poor quality for what it has offered me. Spitting out java code does not take me long. Most of my work is designed on the model that re-usage is to be expected and that I cannot expect to be given a particular OS machine. I have to be able to take what ever I am give and get my job done. What would you do if the boss gave you an OS X laptop without Windows and now said do your job oldman how productive would you me. Me that is only a minor annoyance. Windows will cost me performance but I still will be able todo my job.

    “text processors aren’t WYSIWYG and WYSIWYG has been part of desktop computing for over 25 years.”
    What??? What rock have you been under oldman.

    http://www.bakoma-tex.com/ or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeXmacs or others. Yes if I wish I can go WYSIWYG with Latex but this is tieing hands behind back. When I should be using more modern WYSIWYM.

    “Nobody outside your niche use is going to tolerate using tools like LaTex, no matter how “powerful” they are. I will bet good money that you use LaTex because you have been using it for a very long time, you can produce reproducible results in it, and most importantly, your management has no problems or is oblivious to the fact that a portion of their business assets are based on such an archaic tool that requires specialized expertise to maintain.”

    Now oldman really most text processors GUI not just WYSIWYG true where have been been under a rock missed the advancement 15 years ago due to the weaknesses found in WYSIMYG. WYSIWYM is what you need as well when producing good quality web sites and complex documents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYM Yes the tools I use are both WYSIMYG and WYSIMYM. Yes WYSIMYM is the newer model for doing highly complex documents. Also due to Tex broad formatting support I can import document segments from ODT or DOC already formatted.

    I am the layout/project manager. I don’t need good english for this job just be able to produce the results. I just need to be able to take documents from many different sources and merge them into a unified final documents.

    Archaic tool Latex not so. Latex has been updated many times. In its history. One of the key things my management likes is that even after all these years you can still pick up the first Latex documents and rework them even print them exactly like they were printed. Even that they are so far technically out of date by latex standard. Just because Latex does not ruin your day when they change versions does not mean there is anything wrong with it.

    My managers to have issue with me using Archaic WYSIMYG only systems when I should be using WYSIMYM and WYSIMYG systems so final layouts are simpler to generate and change to editors wishes.

    This is the problem oldman. WYSIMYG only systems are Archaic to my line of work. This is where you are stuffed you are out of date.

    Major advantage of WYSIMYM is that you have a text blocks that you can apply multi templates onto without much work producing the different documents you need. Good WYSIMYM systems allow you todo like include files on documents. The include files containing blocks of text. This reduces translation costs also reduces errors.

    Now if libreoffice or MS Office picked up the means to run in a good WYSIMYM mode instead of wimpy non productive WYSIMYG then there might be a reason to move off LaTex for good. Yes WYSIMYG has it place but its not in multi documents that data has to be synced between them. Anything that should be synced has to be in a WYSIMYM model.

    Hard fact to accept is that MS Office tech is out date for particular usages. Due to thinking Latex is Archaic allows you to miss the fact MS Office is Archaic lacking a complete editing mode. Libreoffice Master Documents are partly based on the ideas of WYSIMYM not WYSIMYG.

    Ideal document production system has to contain both WYSIMYM ideas and WYSIMYG ideas. Other wise it is flawed.

  5. oldman wrote, “Competition has always existed in IT Pog, you just don’t like the players.”

    Nope. There has been no real competition on the desktop since Lose 3.1. By that time M$ had achieved a monopoly on DOS, thanks to IBM and M$ began to have enough market power to make exclusive deals with all the major PC OEMs. That’s 20 years of no competition. Apple was out of it until recently and then only in the USA. GNU/Linux has been ready for the desktop since about 1995 but had no space to speak of on retail shelves. That’s not competition. That’s monopoly.

    M$ has deliberately seduced ISV/developers with complex APIs that made programming easier on that other OS and that has caused severe lock-in for many apps. That is the result of short-sighted people taking the easy route, not making the best choices of IT. There are millions of developers using and producing FLOSS. They are gaining share all the time, even if oldman does not see it.

    The proof of the lock-in M$ has caused is the $millions it costs some organizations to free themselves from M$. That would not be the case if people had programmed in an OS-independent way from the beginning. Not only is M$ a financial burden all along but also after it dies. Fortunately the future is practically infinite and the advantages of leaving M$ far outweigh the cost of staying or migraing away. The economic inefficiency of that other OS will soon be evident to all those who give Android/Linux a try this year, more than 100 million people. The crack in Wintel is becoming a fracture.

  6. oldman says:

    “The crime was committed and M$ has still not done the time. I don’t accept the “final agreement” between M$ and US DOJ as binding on the world. M$ is a global problem and the world will deal with it as the world sees fit.”

    Pog,the fact that you continue to attempt to propagate your opinion as fact may play well with other true believers, but amongst those who take commercial software from microsoft as it is it only serves to undermine any credibility you may have, and I believe that you do have valid points to make in the utility of Linux for those who cant afford commercial software and who do not have the luxury of the hardware replacement cycle that goes with it.

    As far as how the world deals with commercial software, with all due respect it already is. Those who can afford it as the cost of doing business are using closed source.

    “Competition is coming back to IT and M$ will have to compete on price/performance rather than secret dealing with “partners”.”

    Competition has always existed in IT Pog, you just don’t like the players. Here’s a news flash Pog, within the desktop market Microsoft already competes function and feature. In the server market it has captured whole swatches of vertical market applications because ISV’s can develop sophisticated presentation interfaces quicker than they can using open source tools. This is what REALLY counts, not how fast the OS boots, not how many times the OS reboots, not on the fact that it can execute on 10 year old equipment.

  7. The crime was committed and M$ has still not done the time. I don’t accept the “final agreement” between M$ and US DOJ as binding on the world. M$ is a global problem and the world will deal with it as the world sees fit. At the moment it seems to me that hundreds of millions are accepting Linux in the form of Android/Linux and retailers see the benefit of putting non-M$ operating systems on their shelves in spite of oldman’s or pogson’s opinions. Competition is coming back to IT and M$ will have to compete on price/performance rather than secret dealing with “partners”.

  8. oldman says:

    “So, oldman, you claim that one should not fire an employee that works unsatisfactorily for more than a decade on the basis that that employee might improve in the future. ”

    Nope. What you are doing is akin to continuing to malign that so called under-perfoming employee long after the simply has not improved their performace, but is now in the contention for employee of the year.

    ” Even if what you say were true about M$, I want none of their other baggage, like authentication/WGdisA, malware, re-re-reboots, wait-wait-waiting and the damned EULA.

    It isn’t a matter of what you want pog. Its a matter of that fact that you continue to try convict microsoft based on obsolete information and experiences.

  9. Gee, I forgot DOS…

    So, oldman, you claim that one should not fire an employee that works unsatisfactorily for more than a decade on the basis that that employee might improve in the future. Your patience exceeds mine. Even if what you say were true about M$, I want none of their other baggage, like authentication/WGdisA, malware, re-re-reboots, wait-wait-waiting and the damned EULA.

  10. oldman says:

    “I have used Lose 3.1, ’95, ’98, ‘ME, NT, 2K, 2003, XP Home+Pro”

    With all due respect, you are now two generations behind in experience on the desktop (vista, 7) and 3 generations behind on the server (2003 R2, 2008, 2008 R2). Your estimation of its reputation is obsolete.

    I am sure that you will say that you “know enough” about windows. The fact is that you don’t and, I’m sorry Pog, but a brief exposure with Windows vista on an underpowered system doesn’t count as experience.

    I run Vista SP1 on what was at the time 4a 4 year old system (Pentium M with 2Gb ram) it ran like a champ until the battery died on the system. I ran 674 Vit Vista for over a year without problems and then did an in place upgrade to 64 bit windows 7. The only thing that I had to do was uninstall 21 or 2 programs that the windows 7 installer flagged as problematic. Everything worked.

    My system updates in the wee hours without event. My system is still running as well as it did when I first received it.

    IN short Pog, the newest version of windows is IMHO demonstrably orders of magnitude better in terms of function and feature than even XP was for many. to try and act otherwise is to me not only foolish, but only serves to invalidate any good points in you argument as people who know the reality will just dismiss everyt thing you say out of hand.

  11. oldman wrote, “I have actually been using microsoft tools and products for OVER 30 years”

    I, too, used BASIC on my Ohio Superboard II since 1980, but it was my last satisfactory experience with any of their products. I still have that Superboard and it still works. I think that’s the only product I still have in my house from M$, and it’s just a ROM chip or two.

    From ~1990 until 2000, I used other products from M$ regularly and was always fearful they would crash at inopportune moments. I used to cross my fingers when about to save or print, for instance. I have never seen a factory-installed version of that other OS run trouble-free for more than a few weeks. I have used Lose 3.1, ’95, ’98, ‘ME, NT, 2K, 2003, XP Home+Pro. I don’t consider rebooting a fix for software problems. A business earns its reputation.

  12. oldman says:

    “No, oldman, we can dismiss Windows as inferior based on nearly 30 years of watching it fail. You forget that most of us here have been Windows users too.

    Mr. twitter I have actually been using microsoft tools and products for OVER 30 years. There were to be sure many products that when they were first released, were more promise than delivery, and there were failures, but to characterize all of what microsoft produced in the last 30 years as failing smacks of ideologically driven revisionism.

    Besides, you ability to judge microsoft is suspect. When did you last actively use windows and windows based applications, Mr. twitter? Are you using windows 7 on late model hardware? Have you worked with windows server 2008 R2? IF you have and can demonstrate with real examples HOW they are still “inferior” then we might have a conversation. Because unless you are talking in those terms as far as I am concerned, you are talking out your backside through your ideological free software blinders.

    “Microsoft will never fix the security problems that their software has.”

    And you know this HOW sir? Do you know something about microsofts internal teams that make you feel that you are justified in making such a statement, or are you just voicing a idealogically driven opinion? IF that is the case, why can’t the lnux community get security right? No matter how much THEY fix holes, more are found. This is because as long as there are people out there who make it their business to ferret out holes in the software running on internet attached computers, security holse will be found and unfortunately Security breaches will. THis is why I and others are always taking the position that no system is truly secure and engage in the ongoing game of one step ahead that is the reality of maintaining security on internet connected computers.

    “Even if you don’t believe the company blatantly exploits insecurity to break old versions of their software and sell new versions of the same old junk, it is just as impossible to ignore the massive waste the upgrade treadmill has inflicted on everyone as it is to ignore the practical implications of Windows insecurity. We’ve all seen big company networks shut down by run away infections. ”

    I have also seen companies brought to their knees by denial of service attacks. Such events are a fact of live not specific to microsoft. We recover from them and go on.

    “It is highly insulting to compare that kind of mess to free software or any other software, no matter how comfortable you might personally be in that world.”

    And it is equally insulting when you dismiss my requirements for specific function and feature and attempt to pawn off some often ersatz piece of FOSS as an appropriate for substitution for a piece of commercial software that happens to run on windows. It is insulting when you presume Mr. twitter that you know what my computing needs are.

    “Your dismissal of “ideology” ignores a few critical facts as well. Microsoft has been caught key logging ordinary users for their own purposes. No company that values it’s competitive edge will use Windows after learning that because it puts them at Microsoft’s mercy. ”

    URL’s for this please and we will go from there.
    “This is always the case of non free software but what was formerly theoretical is now a documented fact. ”

    We shall see Mr. twitter. URL’s please.
    Again, oldman, you might be comfortable under Microsoft’s thumb and that, I suppose is your choice, but you should not pretend that an objection to such things is an impractical matter.”

    IN the end Mr. twitter there is nothing illegal about using microsoft products. That being the case my software use comes down to my requirements Mr. twitter. FOSS desktop applications did not and still do not meet my requirements – to me they remain not worth using for my desktop needs regardless of their price. The windows based desktop commercial products that I use, not all of which were produced directly by microsoft, do meet my needs.

    If you wish to continue to dismiss microsoft products, that is fine. But you have made it more than very clear in your postings that blather on about “free software” that any assessment that you made., is hopeless compromised by your idealogy.

    “It is highly insulting to compare that kind of mess to free software or any other software, no matter how comfortable you might personally be in that world.”
    UNlike you Mr. twitter, I’m comfortable in both world worlds. The difference is I donw have idealogical blinders determining my

    Your dismissal of “ideology” ignores a few critical facts as well. Microsoft has been caught key logging ordinary users for their own purposes. No company that values it’s competitive edge will use Windows after learning that because it puts them at Microsoft’s mercy. This is always the case of non free software but what was formerly theoretical is now a documented fact. Again, oldman, you might be comfortable under Microsoft’s thumb and that, I suppose is your choice, but you should not pretend that an objection to such things is an impractical matter.

  13. Someone says:

    @ oldman:

    Nor should you pretend that just because you think FOSS is not the best tool for the job for you, that means by default FOSS cannot be the best tool for the job for anyone else.

  14. twitter says:

    You have also demonstrated that you are in your way just as closed minded as you claim that I am . You dismiss out of hand windows based tools as inferior for all cases, when all you have demonstrated is that they do not fit your usage or your ideological framework.

    No, oldman, we can dismiss Windows as inferior based on nearly 30 years of watching it fail. You forget that most of us here have been Windows users too. Microsoft will never fix the security problems that their software has. Even if you don’t believe the company blatantly exploits insecurity to break old versions of their software and sell new versions of the same old junk, it is just as impossible to ignore the massive waste the upgrade treadmill has inflicted on everyone as it is to ignore the practical implications of Windows insecurity. We’ve all seen big company networks shut down by run away infections. It is highly insulting to compare that kind of mess to free software or any other software, no matter how comfortable you might personally be in that world.

    Your dismissal of “ideology” ignores a few critical facts as well. Microsoft has been caught key logging ordinary users for their own purposes. No company that values it’s competitive edge will use Windows after learning that because it puts them at Microsoft’s mercy. This is always the case of non free software but what was formerly theoretical is now a documented fact. Again, oldman, you might be comfortable under Microsoft’s thumb and that, I suppose is your choice, but you should not pretend that an objection to such things is an impractical matter.

  15. oldman says:

    “Simple fact here oldman you method is tieing you hands”

    Mr. oiaohm:

    WHen all is said and done, this all comes back to a matter of personal productivity – mine. I made a statement of why in my experience the Linux desktop and its tools are not my first choice for desktop productivity. As far as I am concerned all you have succeeded in doing is demonstrating that you have developed a working methodology after 30+ years of experience in your area of expertise. What you have neither done nor demonstrated is that that what you observe has any relevance beyond your particular use case.

    Most ironically You have also demonstrated that you are in your way just as closed minded as you claim that I am . You dismiss out of hand windows based tools as inferior for all cases, when all you have demonstrated is that they do not fit your usage or your ideological framework.

    Your endless blathering about the so called power of text processors over office suites misses one thing – text processors aren’t WYSIWYG and WYSIWYG has been part of desktop computing for over 25 years. Nobody outside your niche use is going to tolerate using tools like LaTex, no matter how “powerful” they are. I will bet good money that you use LaTex because you have been using it for a very long time, you can produce reproducible results in it, and most importantly, your management has no problems or is oblivious to the fact that a portion of their business assets are based on such an archaic tool that requires specialized expertise to maintain.

    The simple fact is Mr. oiaohm is that I have neither the time nor the desire to turn every ad hoc report I need to prepare into a programming project let alone one in java. I do not need cross platform support, because most if not all of my reporting is done from windows desktops. Nor do I wish to have to do coding to fill in the gaps of that I know for a fact exist in so called LibreOffice and for that matter in most FOSS tools.

    I have work to do.

    And I certainly dont have to justify the tools that I use to you.

  16. oiaohm says:

    What you are missing.
    “Yes I’ve seen the front ends to LaTex. No doubt I would be using them if I had to maintain a pile of pre existing technical manuals and conform to a pre existing standard. But I would not be kidding myself about what tools like LatEx are – time wasters.”

    I am not maintaining prexisting. I am creating more. “Document templates” Really are not in the same league. From the one source I need online search able documentation for helpdesk. Printable documentation for customers. Sections in training books. Application pop up Tooltips. man and info files for posix systems. Microsoft help files for windows systems. Different formats for different ebook readers. Basically LaTeX saves me time. The one block of text ends up in at times 8 different documents without having to cut and paste and those blocks of text ending up perfectly synced. Now when I have todo company branding on top. Without LaTex this would turn into a nightmare from hell. Yes I can be look at times 10 to 20 copies for those 8 different documents for different companies. 160 documents to manually edit or automated system that can regenerate the lot. I think I will stick to the automated system thank you.

    Of course most people are not aware LaTex can pull in internationalization from program source code and be setup to generate Locale, gettext and .rc files. So when a manual has to be translated this also reduces translation costs as well. Since you don’t have to re-translate all the interface stuff twice.

    Basically you are not doing my job. LaTex is the best tool for the job of creating manuals and the related user support information and keeping it all synced. So that the training saying X tool tip will appear is exactly what tool tip appears in the application. The phone support notes about errors in manual end up in the next revision to manual and online help in application.

    All the internationalization text in the applications is the system I work in is coming from the latex.

    Second best is Libreoffice. Master document feature is kinda key so each chapter can go threw independent reviews and glued into final document. It really is weak compared to what latex is doing for me.

    Basically if you are writing a manual in MS Office you are doing it the hard way and error prone because you have todo some much work to make sure you have everything synced.

    Only think that could make manual writing simple is a automated way to remake the screen shots in the manual when internationalization texts change. In fact I have that as well.

    Very tight very effective workflow. MS Office is not even in the same ball park.

    Now serous-ally if you are going to call MS Office best of breed. Can you give me how in MS Office to get the integration I am getting using LaTex. So that the min amount of text has to be translated and what is in the manual is exactly what the application displays. No sync errors. Sync errors in instructions cause confusion.

    Yes there are usage cases where a Text processor is the best option. Reason Text processor rules for manuals is that in fact you are dealing with one to many. One source many locations it need to be printed. Document templates really are design to do 1 to 1. Not 1 to many.

    No office suite in existence perfectly suites making software manuals. Latex is the closest to an ideal fit. The closest is LibreOffice in an Office suite.

    I don’t give a stuff how old Latex is. If it was no longer able todo the job I would not be using it. Now in time some of the xml processing engines might get good enough to replace Latex. Maybe at some point I might start writing extensions for LibreOffice so it can pick up some of the good things like international support from applications source pull in.

    “NetApp appliances, VMWare virtual infrastructure and a Cirix Server farm”

    Those I don’t manage from Windows. In fact the software I use to manage them is web based. Reason one of the CEO’s loves using a Mac and wants the same kind of reports you make at a click of a button. Powershell not flexible enough. All of them provide java interfaces. So I have not built my tools for them dependent on a single platform. Even nicer the program I use is a joint project. Simple fact is the stuff you are doing in powershell exists in a pre existing management software.

    Zenoss comes to mind but their are plenty of others for an open source one but I am not using that.

    The is the problem. You say its fine for the desktop machine it has tones of processing power. True it does. Does not help you one bit when CEO wants to be able to see that information straight up 24/7. No way I am going to be getting out of bed to be doing it all the time. Yes CEO has got use to the fact any report I generate I can provide 24/7 look up interface for no matter the computer used. Ie Mac Linux Windows yes I have CEO’s using Mac.

    Simple fact here oldman you method is tieing you hands. So the CEO and people in charge cannot be given as much information about what is going on as possible. Powershell is forbin here for very good reasons. Little more time doing the same stuff in java that can be integrated into a site that CEO can visit to see what is going on makes life simpler.

    Yes I have a site just for the CEO’s to get reports that are generated when the CEO demarded without having to bother me.

  17. “Master documents” was a feature that worked in OpenOffice.org back in the early days but was buggy in M$’s office suite. That was about 2003/4, if I recall correctly.

    Here’s a review written in 2011:
    “The need for this feature is obvious for book writers. So obvious, in fact, that Word used to have it. The problem is, Word’s master document feature was notorious for corrupting files. For years, Word users were warned not to use master documents. Some used it with success, but the risk was high and many more learned the hard way that the warnings should have been heeded. Beginning with Office 2007, Microsoft hid the master document feature, claiming that an outline was essentially the same thing. I wasn’t even able to find reference to master documents in the Word 2010 help. If it’s there, it’s buried, and for good reason.

    In OOo, however, master documents work beautifully. They even work in an expected way with templates. If you assign a template to a master document, the master document template takes precedence over the templates in the individual files. That means you can create a collection of all those short stories you wrote over the years, and have them look the same across the whole collection, without breaking the styles in the original file. If you want to print the story by itself, it keeps the styles assigned to the file. If you want to include it in a collection of other stories, it takes the styles from the master document to give the collection a consistent look.”

    see Microsoft Word vs OpenOffice.org Writer: It’s Not Just About Price

    see also, from 2003/4:Breaking the Word Processor Curve
    “The only trouble in MS Word is the master document feature has been broken since at least version 6.0–for over eight years. Far from helping the serious writer, it actually tends to crash and corrupt the component files. Expert users have learned through bitter experience (theirs or someone else’s) to avoid master documents in MS Word, except for very limited usage, which defeats most of the purpose of having the feature in the first place. Again, the feature works in Ooo Writer, plain and simple.”

    Looks like M$ went a feature too far…

  18. oldman says:

    “Powershell is forbin for most uses here due to the fact is resource heavy.”

    Don’t you mean its not used because of your bias toward linux. All else is bushwah IMHO.

    “No case of use of Powershell I have not seen a more effective way using Windows Script Host.”

    Well if you wanted to extract information from NetApp appliances, VMWare virtual infrastructure and a Cirix Server farm, You would be a fool not to look at powershell, because there are extensions for all of these that allow me to pull information from components together quickly.

    “So you are not using best solution here. Don’t try to bluff past me. I do manage windows machines. I do know the most optimize paths of doing things.”

    There you go again with your bullying , Mr. oiaohm. You are not in any position to get in my way. As for as “bluffing” is concerned, I’m not bluffing about anything Mr. oiaohm just stating my views backed up by MY experience. That experience is different from yours, and it serves me well and I have been rewarded quite well financially for it.

    You may know a way of optimizing things for your environment, but thats all you know. Your anti microsoft bigotry has blinded you to the fact that tools like powershell that can more efficient for creating code that doesnt have to last forever, doesnt have to execute on every platform, and doesnt have to be “efficient” because you can than having to write a program from scratch does.

    Get over yourself sir, and consider that your experience , while it may be extensive, is probably not comprehensive, and may just be as susceptible to “closed mindedness” as you claim I am.

    You just dont notice it.

  19. oldman says:

    “As far as you useage is concerned, I dont give a crap what use. The fact is you interjected yourself into my discussion with Pog, to “correct” me with what as far as I am concerned is a narrow and imperfect a point of view as you seem mine as being. When you did this, you opened yourself up to be “corrected” as well.

    We will just have to deal with each others idiosyncrasies, I think.

    “Also oldman you most likely have written Libreoffice off too soon as well. Since Master Documents in libreoffice work. Where in Microsoft Office don’t even dare us that feature since document will be unstable.”

    Nope. the limitation of Libreoffice and its lack of features that I use render it useless to me at this point in time. If it improves down the road to the point where it meets my needs at that time, then I will reconsider. But like yourself I have neither the time nor the patience for hat I consider inefficiency.

    “Basically their are area that LibreOffice and LaTex runs rings around MS Office. Features are are really good for manual production.”

    Yes, I been told as much over the years, but the reality is I dont write manuals, and the Word style Sheets and document templates have gotten the job done without the overhead of living in the stoneages of text formatting when I am document processing.

    Yes I’ve seen the front ends to LaTex. No doubt I would be using them if I had to maintain a pile of pre existing technical manuals and conform to a pre existing standard. But I would not be kidding myself about what tools like LatEx are – time wasters.

    And I dont like getting my time wasted any more than you do.

  20. oldman says:

    “This is your problem oldman I have been in the game just as long as you. So don’t bother claiming more than 30 years experience. I have that as well. But I am more polite and not going to try to use years to time to try to justify my point of view.”

    Polite? Bushwah.

    You are just as nasty as I am Mr. oiaohm, and just as opinionated.

    “Something a person like you has to drop is your biases.”

    Bias is in the eye of the beholder Mr. oiaohm. Your experiences and expectations encompass your biases and my experiences encompass mine. Spare me the baloney about what I must do. I am well aware of many if all of the tools you have mentioned. (personally I prefer puppet to cfengine, but whatever). The difference is I have a set of tools that work for me, and thats it. If new ones come by, I be looking at them, but only if they suit MY needs, not because someone else thinks they are leet.

    “Yes its older but who cares if it does not cause as much lose of productive and gets the task done sooner”

    WSH was also a heavy tool of mine, but its not a clean and as elegant as powershell. Also my uses are such that I am not worried about speed. I execute powershell on a desktop with power to spare and most of the code that I write these days is throw away. No need to set in cement something that is only going to have a single use.

    “And the fact remains I don’t need Windows. I don’t need to change to Windows. I don’t require it.”

    Yet you are obviously using it, so you DO require it if only because you rare required to. It is the same for me and Linux. I only keep current on linux skills because it pays the bills, otherwise it is of zero utility to me.

    As far as you useage is concerned, I dont give a crap what use. The fact is you interjected yourself into my discussion with Pog, to “correct” me with what as far as I am concerned is a narrow and imperfect a point of view as you seem mine as being..

    “Why do I provide feedback even if I have applications that do exactly what I require. Simple fact oldman I want competition. I don’t want a single tool as best of bread. I want 3 for 4 fighting for best of bread. Driving each one forwards.”

    This one I will give you to a point. I am reaping the benefits of thecutthroat competition between the maker of Finale, Sibelius, and Notion. The difference is I didnt have to pitch in and guide them along. They are fighting to earn my business.

  21. oiaohm says:

    Also oldman you most likely have written Libreoffice off too soon as well. Since Master Documents in libreoffice work. Where in Microsoft Office don’t even dare us that feature since document will be unstable.

    Basically their are area that LibreOffice and LaTex runs rings around MS Office. Features are are really good for manual production.

  22. oiaohm says:

    “LaTex? This is 2011 not 1986. There is no excuse wasting time and effort running a text formatter in this day and age!”

    Funny enough LaTex allows me to do formatting that MS Office does not. Even MS publisher cannot do. Of course I am using a GUI to LaTex. Master templates with LaTex work. So I can can update a look of a all the documents by adjusting 1 file. So if someone wants a company logo or so on inserted on every front page no issues.

    Format the manual for online usage just by applying a master template or format it for hand held device just as simply.

    Basically for manuals and journals LaTex runs rings around Microsoft Office if you are using a good GUI since producing all the require output forms is simpler.

    “My time is worth money and I have deliverables to meet.”

    So is mine problem I have a different set of deliverables. Manuals with possible customer alterations in look to their internal document look is on of them.

    I also need to be sure that the files will open in 10 years time. Microsoft office still does not give me this. Latex and (ODF)Libreoffice give me this. So to me MS Office is junk not best of bread due to my Requirements. Its file-formats are too unstable to be usable. Note PDF is not suitable the files must be editable. PDF good final form not something that might need to be revised.

    This is the problem oldman what is best of bread and what is junk completely changes on the requirements of what you are doing. Also you have shown bias against LaTex. So I can directly presume you have written it off and when you need advanced formatted documents never looked at it particularly some of its more modern front ends.

    Making me use a Windows desktop will cost my performance because the tools that give me the best performance require Linux to work right. Running a VM inside windows is slower so this would be costing me time and performance. Not suitable.

    Basically stop shoving your ideas of best of bread based on your Requirements on me. Wake up their are people like me with a different set of Requirements that makes most of what you call best of bread junk.

    Result people like me don’t need windows and if we use windows it will cost us performance. Yes their are people out their writing manuals in MS Office the poor saps. When they get asked to produce a broad section of different formatted documents of the same manual they take many times longer than me to get it done.

    “But the fact remains that I don’t NEED to change operating systems. Most of the FOSS that I do use runs on windows – I can even get most CPAN modules to install!”

    And the fact remains I don’t need Windows. I don’t need to change to Windows. I don’t require it.

    Why do I provide feedback even if I have applications that do exactly what I require. Simple fact oldman I want competition. I don’t want a single tool as best of bread. I want 3 for 4 fighting for best of bread. Driving each one forwards.

    From what you have said oldman you don’t care about having competition in the market. So are very short sighted.

    “Lets see you program embedded systems in assembler jack!” Still do at times oldman. Yes some micro controllers out there has ram measured in bytes. You have to be creative with them.

    This is your problem oldman I have been in the game just as long as you. So don’t bother claiming more than 30 years experience. I have that as well. But I am more polite and not going to try to use years to time to try to justify my point of view.

    We have both taken a different path. Note I have not said that a person like you oldman has to change. Something a person like you has to drop is your biases. Like against LaTex for particular things it is best of bread. Microsoft Office is not best of bread in every cat. Effect off people like you oldman on companies. Is that the wrong applications get used for job because you are closed minded.

    “I am easily twice as productive doing the desktop based analytical tasks that I perform these days.”

    Have you truly tested this. Lot of cases with I have done head to heads with people claiming this. Rare people are really getting the performance. I don’t mean to be mean.

    Powershell is forbin for most uses here due to the fact is resource heavy. No case of use of Powershell I have not seen a more effective way using Windows Script Host. Yes its older but who cares if it does not cause as much lose of productive and gets the task done sooner. So you are not using best solution here. Don’t try to bluff past me. I do manage windows machines. I do know the most optimize paths of doing things.

    From an management point of view here its also forbin to be using command-line directly for system management on Windows, Linux or OS X. If you want todo that stuff you are using http://cfengine.com/. With nice records of what you have done.

    When MS finally released powershell was the exact time most of us Linux people managing Linux systems were leaving the command line behind.

  23. Contrarian wrote, “there is no reason to change”, neglecting some facts:

  24. millions are changing every year,
  25. they are changing because they have to change even if they stick with M$ and it costs less to change to FLOSS, and
  26. millions are finding something other than M$’s other OS on retail shelves.
  27. It’s not business as usual. OEMs are putting new lines of business on Linux because there’s no reason not to do that and they do supply PCs with GNU/Linux and Android/Linux because it pays to do that. The market is not large enough yet that they can drop M$ but that could happen within a few years. No one likes doing business with M$ because they take $billions out of the economy and add no value. There are about 130 million PCs using GNU/Linux today. There are about 150 million smart thingies running Android/Linux. How long do you think it will be before those numbers double and there is sufficient interest that OEMs will compete with each other to supply Linux on all forms of personal computers? I think that could happen by 2012 if the early products presented in 2H 2011 succeed as they seem to be doing.

    M$ has used the “applications barrier to entry” for many years to keep out Linux. That’s still around in “business” but it’s gone in personal computing where all kinds of people spend hours on FaceBook each day. They don’t need anything but a browser and COTS multimedia software to get all the use they want from a PC. The smart thingies are rolling in apps these days, apps that don’t run on that other OS. The applications barrier to entry works both ways and M$ is far behind the curve and will stay there long enough that Linux in all its forms has a considerable share.

    I have met many customers of M$ and I was one myself. I don’t know any who enjoys wasting time hunting down drivers, having malware, BSODing, re-re-rebooting and wait-wait-waiting while their rocket-like PC moves at a snail’s pace under the burden M$ imposes. Everyone I have shown GNU/Linux appreciates that it’s faster and they do value their time waiting for things to happen.