EU Lock-in

The EU is all talk and no cattle…

They have gone ahead and made a deal with M$ for $millions with no public tender. Despite public denial that they are locked in the EU states that they need software from M$ “for technical reasons”. Yeah, they’re locked-in seriously and now they want to swallow the sinker.

see The European Commission’s locked-in syndrome

Before you can escape, you have to realize you are imprisoned…

UPDATE
Compare this action by the EU with a policy of the government of India not to buy any hardware without drivers for all operating systems (eliminating the problem).

I-4. Policy Statement
The following shall be guaranteed by the OEM and ensured by Vendors.
I-4.1. The Computers shall be capable of running on all General Purpose Operating Systems(OS)
I-4.2. OEMs shall provide Drivers for Computers and Peripherals, which are capable of running on all General Purpose OS.
I-4.3. The Drivers of Computers and Peripherals for GNU/Linux ( one of the General Purpose OS) shall satisfy any of the following conditions;
I-4.3.1. The source code, build procedure and installation instructions for the Drivers must be made available as per any of the Open Source Software (OSS) Licenses listed in Part-IV. Computers and Peripherals must be operational using these Drivers in the latest stable Linux-Kernel.
I-4.3.2. The source code, build procedure and installation instructions for the Drivers must comply with LSB-3.0 or higher versions and accepted by any of the LinuxDistributions.
I-4.3.3. In case only binaries are made available for the Drivers, then they shall be Linux-Compatible; in addition, kernel dependent binaries must adhere to the specifications of the latest stable Linux-Kernel.
I-5. Non-availability of Drivers as per the Policy
I-5.1 In case, the Drivers of computers and Peripherals are not available as per this Policy, and then the OEM / Vendor would be required to submit justifications to the procuring agency for considering the temporary relaxation.
I-5.2 Temporary relaxation may be granted by the procuring organization, subject to assurance from the Vendor to comply with the Policy prior to the delivery and installation of the Computers and Peripherals.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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83 Responses to EU Lock-in

  1. wide lens says:

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  2. Monitors are sticking out like sore thumbs. Even new LED monitors can use 20W.

  3. oldman says:

    “Yep. A few billion PCs drawing 100W is a lot of power wasted. We know we can get power drain down to 1W or less. That’s still gigawatts.”

    Perhaps, but there are still plenty of places where we can conserve energy without throwing out the baby (x86) with the bathwater.

  4. Yep. A few billion PCs drawing 100W is a lot of power wasted. We know we can get power drain down to 1W or less. That’s still gigawatts.

  5. oe says:

    “It means client PCs can be built much smaller, cooler, quieter and cheaper” = much less power draw; very important as energy prices get higher.

  6. Contrarian says:

    “By usa law convicted in any civil or criminal of anti-trust sections you get “US felony conviction” for each one.”

    #oiaohm, you ae starting to look like a fool. Every time you post you become more and more absurd.

    “client PCs can be built much smaller, cooler, quieter and cheaper”

    “Can be” is one thing, but “will be” is quite another. PCs can be used with Linux for less purchase cost, but they never have been very popular anywhere. Remember the netbook?

    When you build a PC with ARM processors, you end up with a poorly performing PC compared to Intel or AMD units with tiny screens and odd ball configurations. So far, they have been at a higher price as well. I don’t give them much hope.

    ARM is going to be limited to tablets and phones where the low power is more important than performance.

  7. Not meaningless at all. It means client PCs can be built much smaller, cooler, quieter and cheaper. That is important because it changes budgets and the global and working environment. The whole world is looking at where thin clients make sense and it will be the standard/default desktop technology in many places where large numbers of identical systems with simple demands occur.

    It means ARM can do the job as well or better than x86 for a lot less resources including time and money.

  8. oldman says:

    “I know what a 400MHz Via thin client can do. With 1gHz+, I am laughing.”

    Why?

    The vast majority of in idividual desktop users don’t care about how well a modernized dumb terminal works.

    I contemplate the power of mainframes occasionally. It is a fact that the bank of China runs its customer system on a pair of z9 Mainframes – all 200+ million user accounts. I laugh too, most small iron looks like toys in comparison.

    But I recognize that its just as meaningless.

  9. I know what a 400MHz Via thin client can do. With 1gHz+, I am laughing.

  10. Think M$’s share dropping to 50% instead of 76% of PCs. If 50% is worth so many $billions, 76% would be a lot more. The pie is growing and M$ is only getting half. Next year they will get even less.

  11. Just like Vista …

  12. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson I have seen the Windows 8 beta copies I see no reason why Windows 8 will not be released perfectly on time. Ie april next year. Something would have to go Shockley wrong. But I do expect programmers to be very pissed with the API changes.

    Might take until 2013 until the third party software everyone wants works right.

  13. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian also it does not matter on court either a company gets charged in with anti-trust to become a criminal.

    By usa law convicted in any civil or criminal of anti-trust sections you get “US felony conviction” for each one. So become a criminal.

    Its an automatic felony conviction only way not to end up with a felony is to be found not gulity. Minor breach will not have the 15 section numbers written because as soon as they are written if you don’t win you have a felony record on you hand. Judge cannot decide not to give it. Technically is funny because if you have a US felony you are not meant to be able to enter 1 Microsoft way.

    No matter how much you hate it. Microsoft was a criminal by USA law. Hopefully they say ex-criminal and don’t re-offend. Lot of things Microsoft did were pure illegal.

    No business to be profitable should ever require to breach the anti-trust laws. The restrictions are not hard to avoid.

    Mind you Microsoft is not the only IT company with felony charges. Intel has a few in fact more than Microsoft smaller scale stuff mostly. IBM has a few but since they got them they have not anything wrong(IBM was over 20 years ago so they are reformed). Dell got one over price fixing due to taking part in it with Intel. Yes don’t follow a known felon lead at times.

    There are a lot of companies out there at different times who get charges over anti-trust.

    Google, Apple and HP are currently on zero. Of course Microsoft would love to get Google charged. Of course Google is proud of their charge free record so will do anything to avoid that.

    Apple had never done a interconnect protocol they have kept secret until recently with itunes. So it was basically impossible to make an anti-trust case against apple. Reason competition had all the information to compete head to head with them if they wished.

    As soon as the word Secrets cross you lips you should start thinking. It secrets that normally where anti-trust problems start.

    Yes Microsoft current Secret patent deals. These could be another round of anti-trust if they are proven to be handed out in an unfair way. Lot of companies technically could be breaching anti-trust with patent deals. Just like the secret OEM Microsoft software acquirement contracts turned out to be illegal.

    Technically by anti-trust different prices in different countries or state for the same product could be a breach. So Microsoft may not be clean yet.

    Most cases a legal above board company to company deal does not require secrets.

  14. Contrarian says:

    “Think how bad the numbers are if you count smart phones and tablets as PCs…”

    The number stays the same, I think. That number is, as you say, $4.393 billion dollars for 90 days. That is a rather large amount of money and hardly can be considered a “bad number” unless you are absolutely desperate to claim some sort of a victory.

    You are about the only person that I have ever heard using the term “Android/Linux”, too. Granted that Android is based on Linux, but the public recognition seems to be more toward ‘Droid with an iconic impression of R2D2 used to drive home the point. Labeling these devices as Linux seems to be struggling to force a point that just doesn’t fit.

  15. oldman says:

    “The rate ARM is advancing without M$ is shocking.”

    How? it really hasn’t moved out of its status as an embedded systems processor for mobile devices. It has zero presence as a general purpose desktop.

    It is really a shame that you don’t actually have a smart phone or a tablet. Pog. It wouldn’t take you very long if you had one to realize that they are NOT suitable as a substitute for what is done with desktops.

  16. Contrarian wrote, “Microsoft income from Windows will continue at or near record high levels.”

    Well, they have diversified. Most of the income comes from things other than the desktop OS. That segment is not doing well at all: share of PCs shipped, ASP (Average Selling Price), share of all PCs (including ARMed devices which they aim to target). The rate ARM is advancing without M$ is shocking. “8” may not be released until 2013. After Vista and Phoney “7”, they don’t want another disaster by releasing early but at the same time Android/Linux is doubling share every quarter. There won’t be much room left for M$ by 2013. I am looking forward to July 28 when the next quarterly report comes. They have claimed that revenue has tracked PCs shipped but it has not. They have hidden the deficit for two quarters now. Let’s see whether they can maintain denial one more quarter.

    In the quarter ending March 31, 2011 they declared $4.393 billion revenue for the desktop OS, about 12% more than they got in the same quarter back in 2008 ($3.924 billion). In the meantime shipments of PCs in Q1 have increased dramatically, from 70 million to 80.557 million (+15%). So attach-rate and ASP are decreasing. ARM and Android are exploding in the meantime. Think how bad the numbers are if you count smart phones and tablets as PCs…

  17. Contrarian says:

    “A modern smartphone is like a mainframe in comparison to the Altair 8800.”

    No doubt about that at all, I agree, but I do not see where there is any significance in that. Microsoft makes tens of billions of dollars in profits each year from sales of Windows operating system software and accessory software. Regardless of how many cell phones are sold with some other OS or how many tablets are sold with iOS or Android, Microsoft income from Windows will continue at or near record high levels.

    It is likely true that use of cell phones and tablets has detracted from sales increases for traditional desktops and laptops and netbooks. However, there has been very little impact so far on Microsoft revenues in spite of huge success of these mobile devices. There is nothing to suggest that continued sales of mobile devices will have any more significant effect than they already have had.

    Microsoft has long ago ceased to be a high growth company and has settled into the role of a profitable blue chip stock just as IBM, Procter & Gamble, Exxon, and many others before them. Even so, you will have to wait much longer for any sort of demise such as you seem to be seeking.

    It would be far more useful to harp on issues where Linux and other open source projects bring immediate benefits to computer users than to continue to throw ineffective barbs at Microsoft.

  18. One of the first personal computers was the Altair 8800.

    It had almost nothing a modern user of a PC would recognize except a box with cables.

    The limitations of a personal computer do not prevent it from being a personal computer, a computer used by a person to do what that person wants done. The concept predates M$ although Gates did contribute to BASIC for that machine and started M$ shortly thereafter. A modern smartphone is like a mainframe in comparison to the Altair 8800.

  19. Personal – “Pertaining to human beings as distinct from things.
    [1913 Webster]”

    Computer – “(Computers) an electronic device for performing calculations automatically. It consists of a clock to provide voltage pulses to synchronize the operations of the devices within the computer, a central processing unit, where the arithmetical and logical operations are performed on data, a random-access memory, where the programs and data are stored for rapid access, devices to input data and output results, and various other peripheral devices of widely varied function, as well as circuitry to support the main operations.”

    My definition is consistent with reality.

  20. oldman says:

    “A PC is a personal computer whatever the form-factor. This is not “1984″ where Big Brother gets to redefine the language, revise history, etc., and you are not Big Brother.”

    Who says your definition is any more accurate or acceptable Pog? I would suggest that “Big Brothering” works both ways!

    By most peoples definition, A personal computer has always implied a full function device with specific capabilities. how one classifies the new devices that are arising is problematic. Attempting to lump a so called smartphone as a computer is probematic as it is still first and foremost a PHONE. Tablets are closer to a personal computer in the classical sense, but ultimately limited by their input capabilities and general horsepower.

  21. http://ncix.com/products/?sku=60976

    Works for me…

    For some reason, NCIX has it indexed under “eeetop”.

    see http://ncix.com/search/?q=eee%20top

    NCIX’s index is huge and not always efficient.

    A PC is a personal computer whatever the form-factor. This is not “1984” where Big Brother gets to redefine the language, revise history, etc., and you are not Big Brother.

  22. Contrarian says:

    “Motorola Atrix”

    This is a phone, of course, and not a netbook. Also, if you look at the Synchronization spec, it says that Linux and OS X are “not applicable” and is only compatible with XP SP2 and Vista. That makes it a rather old product, doesn’t it?

    “eeeBox”

    I didn’t see anything in the link, #pogson. When I searched the site for eeeBox, it only showed three models with Windows.

    http://ncix.com/search/?categoryid=0&q=eeeBox

    “eeePad Transformer”

    That is Android, I agree, but it is a tablet and not a computer. If you add the keyboard, you end up with a $650 netbook equivalent. That is not a very economical solution to anything and I think you would agree, given your overall position on things.

  23. I have written about this before and there are surveys that show a growing number of users don’t even own a desktop or notebook but use a smart phone for everything.

  24. Motorola Atrix – $0.01 not available on-line, in-store only, Android 2.2

    Netbook dock for above $50.

    see FutureShop, a bricks-and-mortar electronics chain in Canada.

    eeeBox see NCIX, more than 20 in stock with Linux, special order can be picked up in store. NCIX does web orders but also has several bricks-and-mortar stores.

    NCIX also has the eeePad Transformer which can be used as a tablet or netbook. They are in stock and available on the web or in-store.

  25. Contrarian says:

    “Many are smart phones and tablets but a few are netbooks.”

    That seems rather weak to me, #pogson. We were talking about retail shelves, not on-line stores or discounts associated with phone services. We were, I thought, talking about computers, too. And I do not see any netbooks in that list either.

    There is no question that there are a lot of Android devices being sold, but they are not computers in the general sense. In a limited way, they can be used for email and light browsing, particularly tweets and some googling for addresses and phone numbers. But they don’t replace the computer as the main way to do most personal computing tasks. Everyone with a smart phone has a computer, too, and most have a tablet also.

  26. Contrarian says:

    #oiaohm, I am sure that Pogson understands the difference between a DOJ brief in support of their (rejected) motion for Writ of Certiorari and an actual ruling. Perhaps he will bother to explain it to you. I think you are beyond help, though.

    Thee have been no criminal charges in regard to these matters ever. You are totally wrong in your beliefs.

  27. oe says:

    “In fact they have been so successful causing problems they have created a mono-culture. Google has been so successful solving user problems that is creating a mono-culture. There are legal ways to create a mono-culture.”

    Well stated, I think that’s why many are revulsed by Microsoft; their products (online like Hotmail/OS’es/Offices/etc) are like the Roach Motel, your data can check in but it can’t check out (BTW Facebook from reading plays similar shenanigans), meanwhile Google, whether you think of it as the nefarious Mountain View Chocolate Factory has always been upstanding about data import and EXPORTING. Seems like they have confidence in the quality of their offerings…..

  28. Contrarian says:

    “I’ll be curious to see if more Halloween documents II emerge in the years ahead where OEM deals where forced that required HP, Dell, and the like to offer only that other OS with penalties for any other offerings (naked PC, FreeDOS, GNU/Linux….).”

    Since the DOJ settlement/states final judgement a decade ago, there have been two separate committees appointed by the court to oversee these contracts and no such thing has been reported. So it is extremely unlikely that any such contracts exist and completely impossible that any such thing would be leaked if it did exist.

    If I recall correctly, the CEOs of Dell, Sony, HP, and a number of other companies stood behind Microsoft in the original case and their committment is more atitudinal than contractual.

  29. oiaohm says:

    Here is the thing.
    “June 7, 2000, the district court entered its final judgment” Criminal judgment has to remain sealed at least until the Civil case is fully finished. Since the fact that ruling is that strong that anyone who has read it cannot serve on a jury in the Civil case against Microsoft.

    So maybe 2013 the document will be open for everyone to read. Maybe not MS might request for it to remains sealed. If it was open I would be just able to say here read this and shut up. It lists the felonies and the fines.

    Yes the problem with having Anti-trust in criminal and civil. The criminal documents are forced to remain sealed unless the civil directly requires them.

  30. Around here, the bog-standard wireless telcos are pushing units with Android/Linux. These have nothing to do with M$ and they are offering them bundled with subscriptions at very low prices. e.g.

    Blackberry Playbook tablet for $500+

    Android Samsung and LG tablets for $200 and $255 with 3-year subscriptions

    That other OS on a netbook for $50 with 2-year subscription

    Lots of choice, side-by-side

    These guys also sell through Walmart and Sears.

    Many are smart phones and tablets but a few are netbooks.

  31. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian Supreme Court ruling is a criminal court ruling contains the reference to a year 2000 final ruling there is no civil court final ruling in the year 2000 “On June 7, 2000, the district court entered its final judgment. ” That is the document I am basing my claims on. Day month year none match any of the other final judgment. Remember it had to be presented to the supreme court so the document exists. It is a closed record. Meaning you have to send someone to that court directly to get access to it. Basically the Supreme Court is where the two case cross. Reason why its their is that the civil case was delayed waiting the supreme court ruling on the criminal punishments before laying its own. Reason due to how bad MS lost the criminal they might have no longer existed so civil ruling may not been required. The criminal order was a complete breakup of Microsoft as final ruling that was over turned. Split into two companies. None of the civil final rulings cover this. One to run Windows one to run Applications.

    Evidence to the criminal cases exists what were the full punishment where handed down is not on the open public record other than fragments in the supreme court ruling that had to be released so the civil could proceed. Basically if you read all the civil case documents properly and had tried to match the documents up you would have found you are missing the key final ruling that the supreme court case is based on.

    Yes the first civil final judgment in the year 2002 and the supreme count case cannot exist without a final judgment from some court to be based on.

    Basically you are missing a complete document Contrarian. This is why you are not going to get anywhere with me. You need to be quoting from the 2000 final judgment to dispute the criminal state of Microsoft. Since that one was a criminal court judgment. Forget all the civil stuff.

  32. oiaohm says:

    oldman “They have been so successful at solving user problems that they have created a mono-culture.”

    In fact they have been so successful causing problems they have created a mono-culture. Google has been so successful solving user problems that is creating a mono-culture. There are legal ways to create a mono-culture.

    “Microsoft is hardly dying, #oiaohm. Real companies such as IBM, Google, Adobe, Oracle, and Microsoft, too, have paid large sums of money to patent their inventions so as to protect themselves and guarantee that they can use what they invented.”

    In fact IBM, Google, Adobe and Oracle. Normally don’t go around sueing people over them. Google vs Oracle started as Copyright infringement where Oracle is pretty darn sure some Google staff person nicked some of their code. Notice Oracle is not going around sueing all android builders one by one. Instead sueing google so issue gets fixed upstream so in time there will be no patent infringement.

    “If someone steals their invention, such as the various companies using the FOSS software that has been found to infringe on these patents, the thief must either pay compensation or cease using the intellectual property (or both). All of these successful companies sue over patent infringements.”

    IBM rarely sues over patent infringements. Most key thing IBM demands is if you use their patents you don’t engage in vendor lock in. If IBM can still compete fairly with you. You have nothing to answer to.

    Adobe few patent cases have been areas that they were failing in.

    Other than the fact some of the patents been used are not stuff that has been stolen. Microsoft gave some of the code to open source. Now they want patents on it.

  33. oldman says:

    “Meanwhile, in tablets and smart phones seems WebOS, Android and other LINUX derived non-PC form factor devices are showing up in my friends hands by spontaneous reproduction.”

    I don’t think that anyone here doubts the mobile device revolution that was sparked by apple and me-too’ed by Google’s commercial Android OS.

    BTW it is refreshing to have someone on the other side acknowledge that Android is Linux derived, not linux.

    The real joker in this discussion is whether mobile devices will break out of the niches that they are in. I know that the pro Linux team is rooting for this, but I am not so sure.

    My iPad is a very good device indeed, but it doesn’t replace a full function system. any lightness advantages are erased by the addition of am external keyboard, it which point it’s portability disappears.

  34. oldman says:

    “Yes “oldman”, just as I predicted, that’s what I said you’d say.”

    Good! then you know where we stand.

    “NOW we are getting somewhere? Where the hell have you been “oldman”?”

    I have been waiting for you to say something other than some snide side comment. Now that you have, we can have a discussion if you wish.

  35. Zombie Chan says:

    “Where Pog?”

    Knowing Pogson, I’d say he’s talking about the Android devices.

  36. oe says:

    Mainly in the US and Canada, the must-not-loose, high margin last stronghold for Redmond, by word-of-mouth and small independent shops (lppbear…) for traditional desktop Linux. I’ll be curious to see if more Halloween documents II emerge in the years ahead where OEM deals where forced that required HP, Dell, and the like to offer only that other OS with penalties for any other offerings (naked PC, FreeDOS, GNU/Linux….). Probably similar deals struck under the cover of NDA’s (a favorite device of corporations that are being squirrely) with Circuit City, CompUSA, and Best Buy. Meanwhile, in tablets and smart phones seems WebOS, Android and other LINUX derived non-PC form factor devices are showing up in my friends hands by spontaneous reproduction.

  37. Richard Chapman says:

    “IN point of fact Mr. Chapman, you are INCAPABLE of making me uncomfortable,”

    Yes “oldman”, just as I predicted, that’s what I said you’d say.

    “Now we are getting somewhere Mr. Chaplam.”

    NOW we are getting somewhere? Where the hell have you been “oldman”?

  38. Contrarian says:

    “they will find Linux on more retail shelves. It’s happening.”

    I do not continually sample retail shelves, but I frequently nose around the computer aisles in various stores to kill time while my wife buys somthing or other. I don’t go into the back alleys, but I have never seen a single Linux machine on any shelf anywhere since Sam’s Club had a DIY computer kit that built an AT-like box about 16 or so years ago now. Maybe in China or Japan, but not around here.

  39. oldman says:

    “This year many millions more Linux users will be out there and they will find Linux on more retail shelves.

    It’s happening.”

    Where Pog?

  40. oldman says:

    “So there you go AGAIN! Trying to force the followers of FLOSS into some kind of repulsive, unreasonable mold.”

    Now we are getting somewhere Mr. Chaplam. You have finally come out and said something instead of just sneering. We have lots to discuss, it seems.

    What is unreasonable about commercial software?
    What is repulsive about commercial software?

    “We are just fighting (and that is the correct word) for our freedom. ”

    Why? you are already using the software that you want. What is there to fight for?

    “If you find that we are making you a bit uncomfortable then it probably means you are standing in our way. But I’m sure I don’t make you the least uncomfortable “oldman”, now do I. But then again, your comfort is not the least concern to me. Just calling you out.”

    IN point of fact Mr. Chapman, you are INCAPABLE of making me uncomfortable, and your “calling me out” is in the end meaningless babble to me.

    However I am very much amenable to talking about information technology.

    And I am very interested in someone can be so oblivious to the realities of others requirements. Mr. oiaohm is actually more reasonable than you are in this regard.

    Lets talk feature and function. Lets talk about what you feel is superior about free software.

    But lets try to leave ideological babble at the door.

  41. Contrarian wrote, “nowhere near enough, I think, to be effective enough in getting general users to use Linux on their home computers.”

    The vast majority of users of PCs do not install operating systems. However, more OEMs, more retailers and more distros of Linux are stepping up every year. This year many millions more Linux users will be out there and they will find Linux on more retail shelves. It’s happening.

  42. Richard Chapman says:

    “Change for changes sake is stupid. and change for idealogical reasons even stupider.”

    Yes, of course “oldman”. And ordering another round of software from Microsoft without even a hint of research into your needs is stupid, and calling the BSA to audit your company just because you want to make sure you are in compliance is even stupider. But you don’t do those stupid things “oldman” because you are not a big fat arsed jerk. And we don’t make change for changes sake or for ideological reasons either. So there you go AGAIN! Trying to force the followers of FLOSS into some kind of repulsive, unreasonable mold. No, “oldman”. We are just fighting (and that is the correct word) for our freedom. If you find that we are making you a bit uncomfortable then it probably means you are standing in our way. But I’m sure I don’t make you the least uncomfortable “oldman”, now do I. But then again, your comfort is not the least concern to me. Just calling you out.

  43. Contrarian says:

    “There is lots of networking going on.”

    But nowhere near enough, I think, to be effective enough in getting general users to use Linux on their home computers.

    “Don’t take our word for it. Read M$’s stuff…”

    I was not talking about presenters at technical conferences that are sponsored by Microsoft. I have been to many of those and I completely understand that technical presentations done under those auspices are one-sided and you can believe what you wish. What I am talking about are blog commentary such as here where people post their own views for or against the issues raised. Do you think that you are the only side of any question? That seems a bit too smug.

  44. Contrarian says:

    “Microsoft performed a set of vendor lockin most got Microsoft felony charges if you know where to look for the moves and they worked. Illegal vendor lockin moves.”

    #oiaohm, I cannot tell whether you are just totally misinformed about the history of the Microsoft lawsuits or if you are unable to understand the plain English of the various filings and reports or if you are just making up stories out of your own mind. In any case, you are posting things that are not true.

    As I asked before, you should provide a link to whatever source you are basing you claims upon. As you did for the thing that you claimed was a Supreme Court ruling, it would then be easy to show where you misread or didn’t understand what you were reading. Lacking that, it is not possible to tell where you got such fictitious information.

    “Companies needing to sue their competition with patents is a company that is dieing.”

    Microsoft is hardly dying, #oiaohm. Real companies such as IBM, Google, Adobe, Oracle, and Microsoft, too, have paid large sums of money to patent their inventions so as to protect themselves and guarantee that they can use what they invented. If someone steals their invention, such as the various companies using the FOSS software that has been found to infringe on these patents, the thief must either pay compensation or cease using the intellectual property (or both). All of these successful companies sue over patent infringements.

  45. oldman says:

    “Actually….I do.”

    Why am I not surprised. I believe that you are a freelancer. Ever consider that there was a reason for this?

    “You spend most of your time on this forum looking down your nose standing in judgement of others while I never bother even visiting the nutters over at the Linux haters forum. ”

    I spend my time in this forum discussing IT with Pog. We disagree most of the time, we occasionally learn something from each other. I do not expect to change his opinions and will not be bothered if he eventually chooses to ban me. I will even use my linux skills as I have in the past to help him if/when he should need that help when he is teaching in the north.

    IF I appear to look down my nose at the other posters who wish to “take me on” for being a “$hill, slave, whatever” it is a because most of you look down YOUR nose at me. So I call it as I see it keeping as civil a tone as I can.

    With you little man, however, we are past civility.

    Mr. IPBear, the truth is you have given nothing in the way of a contribution to this discussion other than the standard “microsoft iz ebil” crap of the microsoft haters. you have shown little understanding or sympathy for those who have to get work done. Even Pog understands my position and is m more nuanced in his reasons.

    BTW As far as visiting the linux haters forum, I suspect that you do not do this because they would chew you up and spit you out, little man.

  46. oldman says:

    “Back at ya. (although I am an ethical “pretentious little twerp” while you on the other hand….) I love the wording there. So telling. “Even Pog doesnt presume” PRESUME?????”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Good Mr. IPBear. I think that you know where you can put your opinions.

    “Hurry off oldman….I hear there is a opening for corporate shills in the Yellowstone area….”

    Ah what else can I say, Mr. IPBear, for you have succeeded in dragging this discussion into the gutter. Perhaps Pog will consider banning someone whose only contribution is to abuse his fellow posters.

    Or he can ban me…

    Either way I dont care.

    GO back to fixing your PC’s little man, and dont presume to lecture your betters.

  47. lpbbear says:

    “You really are something else Mr. IPBear. SO tell me, would you tell this to those who pay your salary fixing windows workstations. Why Not?”

    Actually….I do.

    “For that matter are YOU Mr. IPBear to stand in judgement of me or anyone like me simply getting work done?”

    Truth hurts don’t it?

    You spend most of your time on this forum looking down your nose standing in judgement of others while I never bother even visiting the nutters over at the Linux haters forum.

    Wassa matter, can’t stand the heat when someone points out what an elitist snob you are?

    “Even Pog doesnt presume what you do. buth then again Pog isnt a pretentious little twerp like you.”

    Back at ya. (although I am an ethical “pretentious little twerp” while you on the other hand….) I love the wording there. So telling. “Even Pog doesnt presume” PRESUME?????

    I am somehow reminded of this quote.

    “Would the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands. And the rest of you, if you’ll, just rattle your jewelry.”

    Clue to you….we’re sitting in the cheaper seats.

    “When tools that are equivalent to what I use now are available to me and it is worth my while to change, not only will I change, but I will be more than willing to pay for them.”

    Ahh back to the old “you FOSS advocates won’t pay for anything” elite holier than thou snobbishness.

    As I remember you had acres of Linux systems to admin and according to you get paid pretty well to do it.

    Hurry off oldman….I hear there is a opening for excuse making corporate shills in the Yellowstone area….

  48. oldman says:

    “M$ is getting the benefit of all its supporters efforts for $0”

    Microsoft and its ISV’s have created a range of products that have proven useful to a wide range of computer users. They have been so successful at solving user problems that they have created a mono-culture.

    While one could argue that mono-cultures have their problems, they do serve their users needs. And unfortunately, those users dont in general give a tinkers f-rt about nuances that you worry about.

    Are they slaves? Probably no more and no less than YOU are Pog!

  49. M$ is getting the benefit of all its supporters efforts for $0. That makes them slaves. All it takes is one IT-leader to advocate a roll-out of “7” and M$ gets $thousands or $millions in large organizations. What does M$ do to earn that? Nothing. What do the organizations have to do to give M$ that windfall? Buy new equipment, install the OS, reconfigure everything, hold the hands of all users and do endless re-re-reboots and critical updates hoping nothing bad happens.

    There is even a line-item in the 10Q for unearned income, $13billion. Revenue in the last quarter was $16.4 billion. Cost of revenue was only $3.9billion. That’s $12billion free work done by slaves. For the OS, revenue was $4.4billion for the quarter while the cost of revenue was only $1.7billion. That’s $2.7billion free work done by slaves.

  50. oldman says:

    “No, you’re not a “slave”. Slaves don’t get paid for being abused. Prostitutes do though.”

    You really are something else Mr. IPBear. SO tell me, would you tell this to those who pay your salary fixing windows workstations. Why Not?

    For that matter are YOU Mr. IPBear to stand in judgement of me or anyone like me simply getting work done? Even Pog doesnt presume what you do. buth then again Pog isnt a pretentious little twerp like you.

    But beyond the the insults…

    When tools that are equivalent to what I use now are available to me and it is worth my while to change, not only will I change, but I will be more than willing to pay for them.

    Not before.

  51. oldman says:

    “Sorry to say oldman you have most likely been one of the people who have brought this on us.”

    Yep, I made the eggregious error of actually liking and using what I felt was the superior product.

    Guilty as charged.

    The reality is Mr. oiaohm, the more skilled I have become at problem solving, the less time that I hadand at some point along the way I lost the patience with rolling my own any more than was necessary. Now I look for tools that get the job that I need done with the minimum of fuss and bushwah. It happens that those tools are commercial based on microsoft OS. That it.

  52. oldman says:

    “That makes those who do support such an unethical entity just as unethical as the entity itself and equivalent to the scumbag corporate lobbyists who pay poor people to save a place in line at congressional hearings so they can get in before “normal” people or the trash disguised as humans who made excuses for the oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico..”

    So AM I to presume that you are not fixing any windows based systems Mr. IPbear, that you only service linux and FOSS based solutions, Hmmm.Mr, unethical?

    Spare me your bushwah sir, because that all it is.

  53. lpbbear says:

    “Again with the insults Pog. I am no ones slave. ANd I categorically reject the notion that using a particular set of commercial applications makes me a slave.”

    No, you’re not a “slave”. Slaves don’t get paid for being abused. Prostitutes do though.

    But beyond the insults….

    People who put their hands over their eyes and fingers in their ears in an attempt to excuse the glaring atrocities being perpetrated by Microsoft should sit in a corner and be very….VERY quiet.

    (You owe us for creating something that infringes on our intentionally vague pointlessly stupid patent on some obvious function or method that has been used for thousands of years but is somehow “different”, because we say it is, that we gamed through loopholes in the poorly thought out copyright/patent system. Pay up now and forever or we sue you to death!)

    Advocates for corporations like the above shouldn’t go on public forums beating their chests with way too much pride blathering on about how much “better” the solutions from known criminals are or claim that the criminal’s illegal actions are old news and try to rewrite historical fact.

    Its quite clear Microsoft has never stopped behaving like a ruthless monopolist and is still engaged in activities that should cause their top management to spend the rest of their days in jail cells.

    You can’t claim its “ideology” talking when FOSS advocates point out that the facts about Microsoft remain.

    You also can’t claim products created by a loose band of unpaid FOSS advocates as somehow “inferior” to those created by a commercial billion dollar company when the same billion dollar company has used its monopoly position to kill all of its commercial competitors who DID have superior products. Word Perfect in its day was a far superior office suite compared to MS Office….until Microsoft bought into Corel, killed its Linux initiative and eventually the company. I would say that in fact the heavily under funded FOSS stuff is pretty damn good when compared to the over priced heavily funded crap Microsoft puts out. Rather than that being a weakness in the FOSS stuff it actually shows how truly incompetent Microsoft is given the huge R&D budget they are always bragging about and the pitiful results they have to show for it. Oh wow, their stuff is somehow more mo better than stuff being created with no budget by people not getting paid to do it!? Big accomplishment!

    But worst of all?

    Taking a position in support of an obviously unethical company makes those supporters…….wait for it……..

    too friggin’ obvious……..

    UNETHICAL!

    That makes those who do support such an unethical entity just as unethical as the entity itself and equivalent to the scumbag corporate lobbyists who pay poor people to save a place in line at congressional hearings so they can get in before “normal” people or the trash disguised as humans who made excuses for the oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico.

    You can make all the attempts at rewriting history and all the rationalizations you want but the facts about Microsoft remain.

    All kidding aside, unethical lowlifes like that make me want to vomit.

  54. oiaohm says:

    oldman you don’t get it.
    “The fact is, it is not illegal to use commercial products based on Microsofts OS and tools. ANd all of the bleating about old news and past business practices are meaningless in this context, Those of use who jobs to get done and to take advantage of the features in microsoft based commercial applications to enhance our productivity are on our terms not going to stop using commercial software just because microsoft is a bu$ine$$ who has played up to and over the line.”

    Anti-competitive actions is the reason we have less commercial software and are restricted mostly to Foss competition. So we have end up with mediocrity quality of software all round all due to illegal actions.

    Remember Small business market 1980 to 2000 was mostly dominated by Novell netware. There was a cross section of Unixes.

    I really love that. Lets forget they are criminal basically reduced the number of options we have to get the job done. So we now have less chances of having the ideal fit to problem at hand.

    The key point I was making is something you missed. All those document issues that turn up between versions of MS Office that lead to lost productivity so forcing you to deploy the same version threw out. That is abuse. You are over paying in Retraining and Software all because the software compatibility between versions is crap. So you should be just as backing in demanding solid standard fileformats.

    Sorry to say oldman you have most likely been one of the people who have brought this on us.

    You are also presuming I don’t use Microsoft to get work done at times oldman. In fact I do use it. I am just aware of what evil I am dealing with.

    Like I am not going to upload my business data into MS cloud services. MS track record you know they will knife you with your own data.

    No company should pay someone they know is a criminal and not be thinking how this criminal might harm them. If the company does they have their head in the sand and risk getting knifed.

    Also oldman their is one key reason for the low quality of OpenOffice and a lot of other Foss office software. Until recently all support for MS formats had to be reverse engineered. So competition on the desktop was not even classed as something to put major resources into. For the simple fact you could spend all that time than MS would break it again.

    The damage done by the criminal actions is massive. Scale most people doing even think of. Since the wins of ODF requirements in many countries. Their is now hope that competition is possible.

    With hope that competition is possible comes resources. In time this will be better grade of competition.

    Yes the hope is why OpenOffice core developers went from not caring ie Sun/Oracle could run the project to how ever they like. To we better fight to take this project forwards. How fast this change happened caught Oracle hopping.

    Yes their has been a very major shift in focus in the last 2 years in the FOSS world. Desktop is now seen as a possible location for FOSS software. Maybe not Linux desktops but at least some of the software.

    oldman the FOSS internal attitudes have changes massively. Of course results of this will start showing up in the next 2 to 3 years.

  55. “Done in the wee hours without any problem” except leaving users and systems naked to the horrors during office-hours. When I was a graduate student, there were no wee hours. We often worked 24 hours or had a grave-yard shift.

    “None of which have effected me and I am directly ON the internet.” What about your thousands of users and systems? The probability that nothing has stuck in millions of machine-hours of exposure is incredible. You should tell M$ how to fix its stuff to do that out of the box to save the world of $hundreds of billions spent on fighting malware. That should be a marketable recipe. Obviously there is a need for it, but, you could get that kind of reliability out of the box with GNU/Linux.

    Even M$ admits that autoupdates fail. It is a delusion to believe the software is more reliable than its creator:
    see http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_vista-windows_update/ms-auto-update-errors-for-important-updates/7f165f4b-f057-e011-8dfc-68b599b31bf5

    M$ has even removed patches that require F8 interaction to undo...

  56. oldman says:

    “zero-day updates”

    Done in the wee hours without any problem.

    “re-re-reboots”

    mostly non existent

    “endless exploits developed daily while patching is monthly”

    None of which have effected me and I am directly ON the internet.

    “licensing, the EULA, CALs, etc. and
    forced upgrades for no benefit to anyone but M$”

    I have the benefit of the applications that enhance my productivity. THere are costs to e sure, but they are to me reasonable, and can in any case be chalked up to the cost of doing business.

    “denial is sad.”

    As is obliviousness to the needs of others beyond your ideological agenda.

  57. oldman wrote, “What hoops do we have to jump through Pog?”

    Denial is sad:

    zero-day updates, re-re-reboots, and endless exploits developed daily while patching is monthly,
    licensing, the EULA, CALs, etc. and
    forced upgrades for no benefit to anyone but M$

    GNU/Linux has none of those hoops to jump through allowing users and system administrators to do productive work instead of enriching M$.

  58. oldman says:

    “Even if one finds certain applications useful, one should demand suppliers provide those applications on another platform not controlled by the slave-master. Slavery is unacceptable no matter the justifications. ”

    For what purpose should I waste my time demanding applications on other platforms Pog? I have no need for more than one app to solve a problem. If I really feel the need for something different (and suddenly become wealthy), I can buy Apple products – they run all the apps that I want as well.

    Again with the insults Pog. I am no ones slave. ANd I categorically reject the notion that using a particular set of commercial applications makes me a slave.

    As far as I am concerned, not only is that complete and total bushwah, but good luck getting anyone to listen to you after you start calling them names!

    ” How many more hoops will M$ have to ask you to jump through before you see the light? Will it be too late to escape?”

    What hoops do we have to jump through Pog? The applications that we use do what we want them to do. Their ongoing costs are reasonable to us. We are productive on our terms.

    When will you see the reality Pog, for most people there is nothing to escape. We do not have a personal vendetta against Microsoft, They are a bu$ine$$ providing use with the tools of our trades. Thats all.

  59. Written like a true slave: “ANd all of the bleating about old news and past business practices are meaningless in this context, Those of use who jobs to get done and to take advantage of the features in microsoft based commercial applications to enhance our productivity are on our terms not going to stop using commercial software just because microsoft is a bu$ine$$ who has played up to and over the line.”

    Even if one finds certain applications useful, one should demand suppliers provide those applications on another platform not controlled by the slave-master. Slavery is unacceptable no matter the justifications. How many more hoops will M$ have to ask you to jump through before you see the light? Will it be too late to escape?

  60. oldman says:

    “Change is good.”

    Change for changes sake is stupid. and change for idealogical reasons even stupider.

  61. oldman says:

    “Once people wake up they have been trapped that way. To get out is insanely hard. They have locked you with the most valuable item on earth. Your Information.”

    And go where Mr. oiaohm? into FOSS mediocrity, int less functional packages that require more work to use, when the function is there at all?

    The fact is, it is not illegal to use commercial products based on Microsofts OS and tools. ANd all of the bleating about old news and past business practices are meaningless in this context, Those of use who jobs to get done and to take advantage of the features in microsoft based commercial applications to enhance our productivity are on our terms not going to stop using commercial software just because microsoft is a bu$ine$$ who has played up to and over the line.

  62. Contrarian wrote, “I am astounded that anyone would actually believe that Microsoft would pay people to post in these blog comments”.

    Don’t take our word for it. Read M$’s stuff…

    Read it on GROKLAW.

    “Our mission is to establish Microsoft’s platforms as the de facto standards throughout the computer industry…. Working behind the scenes to orchestrate “independent” praise of our technology, and damnation of the enemy’s, is a key evangelism function during the Slog.

    “Independent” consultants should write columns and articles, give conference presentations and moderate stacked panels, all on our behalf (and setting them up as experts in the new technology, available for just $200/hour). “

  63. Scientists publish, attend conferences, teach and train novices in larger projects. There is lots of networking going on. That amounts to advertising software that works like GNU/Linux. That’s how all those super-computers were equipped with GNU/Linux.

  64. oiaohm says:

    Contrarian Microsoft selling is not exactly true.

    Microsoft performed a set of vendor lockin most got Microsoft felony charges if you know where to look for the moves and they worked. Illegal vendor lockin moves.

    Office suites. MS introduced RTF as a spec got all other Office suites using it. Then extended RTF and did not document what they did. So making the only company that could truly make an RTF file that was compatible Microsoft. Had to pay settlement to Novel over this was found gulity on all charges.

    Internet browsers. Illegal purchase of a Internet browser. Shipping browser for free and welded into the OS so it could not be 100 percent changed away from. Extended the protocol without proper documentation. Release a site editor that took advantage of their extensions so producing sites incompadible. Terminated production of their Internet browser for other platforms when they believed they could push to 100 percent market share.

    Networking. Illegal alteration of the SMB protocol that is IBM protocol in 2000 with the introduction of ADS. Extending LDAP without documentation another breach.

    Do I have to keep on going. We have over 15 years of Microsoft crimes. Those crimes have created inertia.

    I really don’t think MS has stopped yet. They are now using patents so every one making Linux devices has to pay them. Of course Motorola wants it the other way reason for the court case between Microsoft and Motorola. Bad part here is Motorola would have never sued Microsoft if Microsoft had not sued them.

    Companies needing to sue their competition with patents is a company that is dieing. They know their products are not the best any more. If your products are the best patents really are not that much required in the software world. Since you will out sell and be used as default.

    When you get into research labs. Most of Microsoft vendor lockin stunts don’t apply. So you see a market dominated by Linux and prior to Linux that market was dominated by BSD. Simple fact is that market has never been Microsofts except around the edges.

    “overwhelming acceptance that it has been very easy to continue re-selling new versions of those products year after year.” No that is a sign of problem. Why are people requiring to buy more and more. Simple reason new versions are not proper compatible with old. Yes an old vendor lockin stunt.

    Vendor locking stunts are highly profitable and mostly illegal.

    Now something like Photoshop that has more backwards compatibility people by at a slow rate. About 1/3 all MS sales are linked to vendor locking from Photoshop numbers.

    The battle by governments for ODF and OOXML is that these are about requiring office suite applications to provide backwards compatibility and side ways compatibility so ending the vendor lock in problem.

    Basically you have a few 1000 documents to read before you are really ready to make any judgment on what MS market really is. Yes pressure for it to head to normal will keep on coming.

    Microsoft general game play.
    Embrace a standard, Extend standard and don’t document use this to Extinguish Competition by selling that their applications are more compatible.

    Repeat enough times over a large enough time frame and you will have the same market share as Microsoft if people not smart enough to know what is going on. You don’t even have to be the best product in fact it can help if you are the worst product for compatibility to standards to make you compatibility claims look better. You can open your documents and your competition but you competition cannot open yours. So you are the best product of the best quality right? That is the problem the answer is Not always. But most people think yes it is.

    Once people wake up they have been trapped that way. To get out is insanely hard. They have locked you with the most valuable item on earth. Your Information.

  65. Contrarian says:

    “I can totally see how GNU/Linux would thrive in the same situation 40 years later.”

    I think that no one is going to take up and use something that way unless someone else is there to explain it and to advocate its use. The reason why Microsoft software is so widely used is that Microsoft has been very effective in selling their products on their claimed merits and they have had such overwhelming acceptance that it has been very easy to continue re-selling new versions of those products year after year.

    I know for a fact that the selling process is not a trivial undertaking and I do not see where any of the FOSS products are promoted sufficiently to make much of a dent in the Microsoft sales.

  66. Contrarian says:

    “Could it be that you are actually being paid to post comments here on Robert’s Blog?”

    I see this sort of thing time and again, not so much here, but frequently in other forums. I am astounded that anyone would actually believe that Microsoft would pay people to post in these blog comments. I would expect that you could imagine that some people do not see Microsoft as evil, just as you see that they are. Everyone has their own opinion and will generally be willing to express it.

  67. oldman says:

    “The only software purchased in our lab was some DEC OS and compilers. FORTRAN was the lingua franca. The critical parts were done with assembler and the quick and dirty stuff was done with interpreters like FOCAL15…. I can totally see how GNU/Linux would thrive in the same situation 40 years later.”

    Pog, that was close to 40 years ago. Up to about 7 years ago a very large amount of scientific work was done on proprietary unix boxes from the likes of SUN, IBM and Silicon Graphics. Work was done in Fortran C and some C++. Many of the scientific libraries were made available as well. Starting about 7 years ago some of the braver souls began to experiment with Linux (our Center for Neural Science being among them) As things got better a critical mass was reached and with the exception of a fer people (We have a silicon graphics “space heater” as we refer to it in our machine room cheek by jowl with an x86 HPC cluster running Rocks.

    THinks have changed a bit since your day 😉

  68. oldman says:

    “Yes, but his life isn’t The measure of the whole of our knowledge. Although he sometimes presents his knowledge in business as unapproachable. It is not. His knowledge extends to 100% of what he knows and what he knows is a small percentage of all of IT. So for “oldman” it would be easy to be lulled into thinking he knows more than he does. It’s not an uncommon fault. In fact, in some instances, it comes with the territory.”

    I assure you Mr. Chapman, that I am more aware of the limitations of my knowledge than you are or yours. But please pray tell, what exactly do you think don’t I know?

  69. oldman wrote, “My point was made to answer the contention that scientific work could not be done without FOSS and Linux.”

    I did a lot of work in science before there was Linux. We used FLOSS but it had nothing to do with Free Software. People wrote software and shared with everyone else. We used numerical libraries when available or we wrote our own stuff. The only software purchased in our lab was some DEC OS and compilers. FORTRAN was the lingua franca. The critical parts were done with assembler and the quick and dirty stuff was done with interpreters like FOCAL15…. I can totally see how GNU/Linux would thrive in the same situation 40 years later.

  70. Richard Chapman says:

    Yes, but his life isn’t The measure of the whole of our knowledge. Although he sometimes presents his knowledge in business as unapproachable. It is not. His knowledge extends to 100% of what he knows and what he knows is a small percentage of all of IT. So for “oldman” it would be easy to be lulled into thinking he knows more than he does. It’s not an uncommon fault. In fact, in some instances, it comes with the territory.

  71. oldman says:

    “All of the supercomputers we use to run calculations run Linux. All of the data analysis and visualisation programs are Linux-based. Lack of Linux proficiency can be a major hindrance for experimentalists, and it would stop theorists cold. If the software we used was proprietary, the cost and limitations on developing, extending, and tweaking it for our purposes would probably shut down or at least greatly slow the project. ”

    I am very well aware of the move to linux by the scientific community. My point was made to answer the contention that scientific work could not be done without FOSS and Linux. In fact it was done and is still technically feasible.

    I also question the notion that OS proficiency is somehow critical to teh task. Most people do their work with tools running on top of an OS. As long as the tools are supported in a given environment the fask can be accomplished.

  72. Unlike some of us, oldman has a life outside this blog…

  73. I think there is no doubt among any here that techies of any kind can use GNU/Linux to great advantage because of its tools and configurability.

    The contentious issues are the “standard user” whatever that is, who just wants everything to work. “Everything” is hard to define. For me everything is anything in the Debian repository, thousands of packages. For my wife it’s a browser, word-processor, spreadsheet, file manager, image processor, multimedia player and PDF viewer. She literally has no need of anything else. Some claim that GNU/Linux is worthless because it does not have one particular application, e.g. PhotoShop, but that’s just silly. If one wishes to edit images one can do it a hundred different ways using computers and image-processing was done before PhotoShop existed (1988). I have been using algorithms involved in image-processing since the 1960s and life was good.

  74. Jason says:

    Saw this post while reading some news feeds on a break. Does oldman have any experience with science at all? I’m a Ph.D. candidate, and Linux is all over the place here. All of the code that is used and written is open source software meant to run in a Linux environment. All of the supercomputers we use to run calculations run Linux. All of the data analysis and visualisation programs are Linux-based. Lack of Linux proficiency can be a major hindrance for experimentalists, and it would stop theorists cold. If the software we used was proprietary, the cost and limitations on developing, extending, and tweaking it for our purposes would probably shut down or at least greatly slow the project.

    I’d like to give oldman the benefit of the doubt here, but I don’t think he’s actually been around any scientists in a long, long time.

  75. Richard Chapman says:

    The *fact* that this is a workday and you, “oldman”, are filling up this blog with your proprietary (ideology) verbiage. It certainly seems that people who back your ideology “oldman” become particularly wordy once they are being paid. Could it be that you are actually being paid to post comments here on Robert’s Blog? Please “oldman” confirm or deny it. One or the other. But if you are not being paid to post comments here, then why on Earth is their such a disparity between the weekend and weekday postings for the those who belong to the proprietary ideology? That is not the case those who follow FLOSS.

    Well “oldman”? Now that you are being paid I’m sure you will provide a lengthy explanation.

  76. oldman says:

    “And yet, oldman, you say this without any knowledge of what the EU’s needs are or how well Linux and/or FLOSS programs can fit those needs. ”

    I may not know the details of the EU IT requirements but I work in IT and have experience with both FOSS and commercial software on both Linux and windows. I used Open source tools in AIX then Linux for years, and wound up abandoning them one by one for tools on windows that in my experience made me more productive by shortening the time it took me to accomplish tasks.

    It is important to remember that the users of computers are not not all just clerks. Many are knowledge workers, and many have if they arhave been doing things for some time will have developer their own extensions,( as simple as macros, or as complicated is vbscript). Business types regularly create complex linled spreadsheets. Analysts use programs like MSAccess to massage data foe local needs.

    One of IMHO major flaws of such pro Linux/FOSS “studies” are that they do not take into account the possibility of home grown local processes that can in some cases (see munich) be actually running a substantial portion of the business. It is not too far a stretch to imaging that at least some of this is in play in the EU case.

    “Just to give one example, a great many scientists would be completely unable to perform their work without FLOSS and Linux.”

    Nope. they would be writing their own code or using open source software on using proprietary unix on non x86 hardware(Sun Spare, IBM Power, Silicon graphics). They did so for many years.

  77. oldman says:

    “I looks as though you are trying to make this discussion one of ideology and not one of facts and merit.”

    The idealogy of free software is all over Pog,s blog. I am just stating what I see.

    As far as “facts” and Merit” are concerned, what “facts” would those be Mr. Chapman? I look forward to your analysis based on current shipping commercial software vs. Linux and FOSS.

  78. Richard Chapman says:

    “oldman”, I’ve never heard of ideology being mentioned in any procurement policy or public tender. I looks as though you are trying to make this discussion one of ideology and not one of facts and merit.

  79. Amen.

    See FLOSSpols 2005:
    Roughly half (49%) of local government authorities report some intentional use of FLOSS. However, a large additional population (29%) reports using FLOSS software, such as GNU/Linux, MySQL or Apache, but are unaware that these are FLOSS.

    Within organisations, partial use on servers dominates (40%) followed by partial use on desktops (16%). 20% experiment in pilot projects. Complete use is very rare, whether on desktop or server.

    Demand exists: 70% of FLOSS users and 38% of non-users want to increase FLOSS use. Awareness of FLOSS leads to increased willingness to use it regardless of current use/non-use.

    More than a fifth of those wanting to increase FLOSS use want a complete migration to FLOSS.

    Perceived advantages of FLOSS include: customisation and the ability to combine it with existing proprietary systems. Barriers perceived by non-users include cost of training and being the first among peer organisations to adopt FLOSS. The experience of current users leads them not to see such barriers, and to appreciate the advantages more strongly than non-users.

    Organisations valuing interoperability are much more likely to increase FLOSS use.

    For non-users, who are more likely to use external maintenance services, a sense of vendor dependency and the need to customise software are strong drivers to future FLOSS use.

    Small budgets lead to “unaware” FLOSS use rather than intentional use or non-use of FLOSS.

    Licence fees account for 20% of IT budgets. Half of all respondents find this too high. This perception leads to increased future FLOSS use, especially among current non-users.

    FLOSS users administer 35% more PCs per IT administrator than non-users – FLOSS use appears to reduce administrator workload per PC, and IT departments with high workloads are more likely to want a future increase in FLOSS use.

    Those are the findings of a survey of local governments, you know, people actually doing stuff…

    Further, a study in 2006 found
    “FLOSS has direct economic impacts: it is credited with firms investing an estimated Euro 1.2 billion for development, adding Euro 263 billion in annual revenue and driving employment numbers. Just as with ICTs overall, it is difficult to assess the indirect impact of FLOSS. There is evidence suggesting FLOSS’s influence on skills development and encouraging of growth of SMEs and employment.

    The awareness for FLOSS in the public sector is continuously increasing. Therefore, policy initiatives towards Open Source play an ever-growing role. According to a CSIS publication, in 2005 there were 265 initiatives around the world of which, most of them are preferred initiatives (i.e. FLOSS from the inception of the initiatives). Europe launched 126 Open source policy initiatives, in Asia there were 73, there were 40 in Latin America, 17 in North America and 4 each in the Middle East and Africa. Most projects were launched by the European Union (16), France (10) and Germany (9) are also heavily involved on FLOSS projects, Italy, Spain and UK comes next to these countries with 6 projects each. Small countries like Belgium (5), Denmark (5), Finland (3), Netherlands (3), Norway (4) and Sweden (3) are also involved in FLOSS projects “

    So, the “negatives” oldman reports have been known to be irrelevant for five years or more by careful studying of real data from organizations that “do things”. This issue is about bureaucratic inertia, not following the rules, and pure ignorance, not the capabilities of the software. Call for public tenders. If the quotes support “7” go for it, otherwise do the right thing and use FLOSS.

  80. Someone says:

    And yet, oldman, you say this without any knowledge of what the EU’s needs are or how well Linux and/or FLOSS programs can fit those needs.

    I get that you don’t like Linux. That either Linux doesn’t have programs that fit your needs or that you can’t be bothered to learn the FOSS equivalents. But that doesn’t mean that Linux is unsuitable for everyone.

    Just to give one example, a great many scientists would be completely unable to perform their work without FLOSS and Linux.

  81. The EU has done studies which show no great loss of productivity by switching to FLOSS. In TFA, the EU Commission said the “problem” was equipment as if going to “7” did not require new equipment. It made no sense.

  82. oldman says:

    “Before you can escape, you have to realize you are imprisoned”

    As usual insulting those who dont believe in your idealogy, eh Pog? The reality is most likely that the EU has a lot of knowledge workers who productivity would be so disrupted by a move to Linux on FOSS as to render any alleged benefits null. Remember the EU as an organization has work to do and idealogy doesn’t fit in the picture.

    Feature and Function trump so called “freedom” everytime IMHO.

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