Zowie! Lithium Batteries Verge On Perfection

“When the scientists tested the material in the laboratory, cycling stability improved and capacity degraded only slightly over 10,000 cycles. The material also charged very quickly – within less than two minutes.”
 
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It used to be said that if you had enough monkeys typing long enough great works of literature would form. I guess it’s even better when you turn loose ingenious scientists and engineers and command them to “Make a better lithium cell!”. Every few weeks there’s some breakthrough or other.

This one’s a biggy. Guys have figured out how to make a better electrode that doesn’t deteriorate much in cycling the battery. 10000 cycles fast-charging, say once a day, is 27 years of driving my Solo 100 miles a day, a million miles. I’d say that’s close enough to perfect. Even if these things cost a bit more to make it eliminates costly replacement of the battery in the lifetime of the car. That’s perfect.

I’m happy with Solo as is. Life with EVs continues to improve. May the best technology win and it’s not burning petroleum and rubbing its molecules to pieces and spewing heat and hot exhaust gas into the air.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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46 Responses to Zowie! Lithium Batteries Verge On Perfection

  1. DrLoser says:

    And while I’m on this topic, there’s actually a good reason why Tesla are offering battery technology patent-free. You don’t even have to be a swivel-eyed Linux fanatic to understand the reason … in fact, as always, it’s better not to be a swivel-eyed Linux fanatic.

    The key here is to understand profit margins and the idea of “complementary products….” both of which apply in a similar way to FOSS. In the case of a computer OS, you encourage people to build a free OS so that you (the hardware manufacturer or the software supplier) can make money on the complementary product, Hooray! You don’t have to pay for making your own OS in-house, and your profit margins go up.

    Similarly, the profit margins on COTS batteries are wafer-thin and not worth Tesla’s while. But if there are multiple competing suppliers of the batteries out there, it makes it easier to sell the high-value “complementary” product, ie the car itself.

    This is all rather difficult for you to comprehend, isn’t it, Fifi?

  2. DrLoser says:

    This thing about everybody else being wrong, and you being the sole possessor of the truth, Fifi:

    To make 2170 or 4416 cells for Tesla cars you need to pay a patent license to Tesla

    That’s a flat-out ignorant lie, isn’t it? Give us a single example of anybody, anywhere around the world, who has had to pay a patent license to Tesla (not “telsa,” btw. Only five letters, and you still can’t get it right) in order to produce those cells.

    You can’t, can you?

  3. oiaohm says:

    Grece wild presumes as normal. Perosnal insults so here is Grece admitting I was right and he was wrong again.

  4. Grece says:

    Shutup Fifi, you don’t even own a car, let alone drive.

  5. oiaohm says:

    Grece no I gave you a week to correct you self and you failed to as normal.

  6. Grece says:

    Took you an entire week to read about the subject matter, then write a response here, eh?

  7. oiaohm says:

    Grece the blog about patents is 2014 does not allow that companies find loop holes.

    The voltage is set by the chemistry, which for a single-cell LiIon battery is nominally 3.6V and the the maximum allowed cell voltage is 4.1V.
    Except in the tesla cells it the chemistry that is patented and its not 3.6.

    Really get you hands on some 2216 Telsa batteries you will see they are not to what you are claiming is false you idiot.

    Telsa loophole their patents by making the new batteries joint work between them and samsung for one part and a joint project between telsa and other company for anther part. So Joint patents requiring agreement of both parties for them to be used.

    Of course neither of those companies telsa choose are on friendly terms so they are not going to license each other or likely to license anyone else.

    Telsa alone cannot issue you a patent license. They can commission you to make parts on their behalf and this is the only way you can get patent license coverage and not be sued by the two companies Telsa worked with. So this means having to pay a percentage to Telsa for every cell made without having to call it patent rolities as well. So you are still paying a patent license Telsa expect on paper it called a different name.

    This what has been done is a really creative usage of the patent system. Telsa gets to claim to be open while having combination of technology protected for 20 years.

  8. Grece says:

    Moron the standard “2170 and/or 4416” is like the ooxml iso standard.

    Like? As in sorta / kinda, maybe perhaps? What UL / ISO standard are you even remotely talking about??

    Key bits totally missing.

    Elaborate further, which bits are “totally missing”, beside the neurons in your brain.

    Like what is the max discharge rate and charge full voltage and charge flat voltage.

    The voltage is set by the chemistry, which for a single-cell LiIon battery is nominally 3.6V and the the maximum allowed cell voltage is 4.1V. Discharge rate is limited by external and internal temperature.

    Standard only cover the out shell size.

    Eh??

    To make 2170 or 4416 cells for Tesla cars you need to pay a patent license to Tesla

    Patent license? LOL…there are none. Tesla uses the open-source model moron!

    https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

  9. oiaohm says:

    https://www.liteshop.com.au/by-battery/18650

    The 18650 is the lithium equal to a AA battery. As above you can see lot of different torches exist using it because its standard is complete and you can be very predictable how to handle it.

    Vendor locking?..first of of all please define “vendor locking”. How is Tesla “vendor locking” an open standard battery cell? Anyone can build newer cells, and they are.
    Moron the standard “2170 and/or 4416” is like the ooxml iso standard. Key bits totally missing. Like what is the max discharge rate and charge full voltage and charge flat voltage. Standard only cover the out shell size. To make 2170 or 4416 cells for Tesla cars you need to pay a patent license to Tesla so you can get the key information to make cells to functional specifications for Tesla cars.

    So really there is only 1 party Tesla making 2170 or 4416 cells for their cars of course that have subcontracted out to some other companies to meet demand. Its not like those companies can make their own new version of a 2170 or 4416 cell because they had to agree not so they could get patent license.

    Yes samsung is the one exception has done a 21700 as well but this still leave the problem that you cannot mix batteries from Samsung and Tesla because there values are in fact different. Great fun repacking a Tesla car use some Samsung cells cause problems. And the newer model tesla cars it talked about using 4416 what no one else is making at all.

    If you are making something and don’t want to be dependent on one factory or a group of factories controlled by 1 party you will pick the 18650 over the 2170 or 4416 at this stage. Maybe you will design like the solo with open trays that you can put 2170 or 4416 or any other slightly different shape cell in there if they every standardize the key bits make a safe charge and discharge circuit with mixed cell supply.

    There is the old saying the bleeding edge. Being on the edge of latest technology in items like batteries at times gets you into the area of incomplete standards. This incomplete standards cause you big trouble in future particular when you have parts appearing that fit but are not confirming to the charge or discharge circuit your item has. Result can be very harmful to end user at worse battery fires with death.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents
    History of EV is littered with new batteries designs and fires.

  10. Grece says:

    “2170 and/or 4416” who makes those. Only one supplier called Tesla. This makes repacking their batteries more expensive. Tesla is all over it for vendor locking. Neither are industrial standard formats. Like I don’t expect to find a 2170 or a 4416 torch any time soon but you can get 18650 torches.

    Hey Petey, I enjoy the notion of torch/torches, please elaborate.

    Other companies make those cells dumb-ass, Tesla isn’t the only one.

    Vendor locking?..first of of all please define “vendor locking”. How is Tesla “vendor locking” an open standard battery cell? Anyone can build newer cells, and they are.

  11. oiaohm says:

    Grece solo battery area is a box on a tray.

    https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/18880255-battery-chemistry-finally-explained

    18650 is a form factor like a AA battery not a chemistry.

    “2170 and/or 4416” who makes those. Only one supplier called Tesla. This makes repacking their batteries more expensive. Tesla is all over it for vendor locking. Neither are industrial standard formats. Like I don’t expect to find a 2170 or a 4416 torch any time soon but you can get 18650 torches.

    There were only 3 new 18650 chemistry with higher storage than prior ones in 2017 and there is expect to be more in 2018. Tesla is very good at drawing media in and comparing to older versions of the 18650 cells. Of course Grece the sucker would fall for this.

  12. Grece says:

    1865 is the same as 18650 Robert, obviously you did know that.

    The 1865 cell has been around for some time, but is set to be replaced by the higher capacity 2170 and/or 4416 cell technology. Tesla’s are all over the newer cells for obvious reasons.

    So again, you just confirmed that Jerry / EM are not building ANYTHING in house.

  13. Some loser wrote, “which are the three are being used in the Solo, 1865, 2170 or 4416 cells and why.”

    None. The previous evolution was using 18650. It was plentiful and off the shelf. The new design uses a different supplier and the modules may no longer be made in house. The temperature control is now part of the design.

  14. DrLoser says:

    Talking to God is an interesting concept, Robert.

    But for the here and now, you are talking to ordinary mortals, such as Grece and me. Now, granted, neither one of us has God-like powers over such minor things as battery capacity, battery life, battery stress under temperature variance, or even what you do when your battery-powered stupid little tricycle somehow fails to start.

    I mean, neither Grece nor I are God. Nor even God’s vice-regent. However, either one of us are capable of asking the obvious question:

    Tell us oh wise one, which are the three are being used in the Solo, 1865, 2170 or 4416 cells and why.

    You are a mere puny mortal, of course, but the least you could do as a puny mortal is to, just for once in your sordid miserly little life, answer a direct question.

    I mean, you’ve got the specs of the as yet non-existent tricycle, haven’t you?

    Presumably the battery cell format is part of those specs. Unless you are so incredibly stupid that you didn’t check out the specs.

    Are you totally incapable of an honest answer to an honest question?

    I think you are.

  15. Grece wrote, “I can guarantee that you have no idea what cell is being used for the SOLO”.

    OMG! I’ve been talking with God, the omniscient!

  16. Grece says:

    Typically, failed cells are bypassed and a load-balancer take care of the variation in banks. Things have to get real bad to require repairs. Nissan reports only about 1% failure of packs in 10 years.

    Of which EM does not provide this functionality, nor is EM Nissan.

    In fact, I can guarantee that you have no idea what cell is being used for the SOLO. Tell us oh wise one, which are the three are being used in the Solo, 1865, 2170 or 4416 cells and why.

  17. Grece wrote, “imagine trying to repair a battery stack when a cell fails”.

    Typically, failed cells are bypassed and a load-balancer take care of the variation in banks. Things have to get real bad to require repairs. Nissan reports only about 1% failure of packs in 10 years.

  18. Grece says:

    Zowie indeed Robert!

    When are you going to mention all the collusion against Trump as shown in the Nunes FISA memo?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvSzJoRRgoY

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/959393270144086016

  19. Grece says:

    Why do you keep referring to me as Dougie?

  20. wizard emiritus says:

    “Pog doesn’t need any of that extra weight when going about his business.”

    Interestingly enough I wonder if TLW will have the same attitude about the “vehicle” that she will be expected to drive in.

  21. wizard emiritus says:

    “You won’t be able to do so, has no one can offer you means to do so.”

    Ah Dougie, but remember, Robert Pogson THINKS that he can repair anything. That is part of why he is so keen on the Solo – it is made from off the shelf components.

  22. Grece says:

    I like to know how Robert will handle warranty work, if EM goes out of business down the road.

    Just think Robert, you complain about wheel bearings, but imagine trying to repair a battery stack when a cell fails. You won’t be able to do so, has no one can offer you means to do so.

  23. kurkosdr says:

    Now, don’t get me wrong, the Leaf is an ugly duckling of a car and any person who hasn’t quit life would probably buy a certified used BMW instead for the same money, but Pog wants to buy a single-seat motorcycle that’s even uglier and is too wide to be used as a motorcycle while offering none of the seating and safety advantages of a car at the same time, and which is never going to be made in volume.

  24. kurkosdr says:

    Buy yourself a Leaf. You’ll be surprise how little renewable energy it takes to cart all those extra seats around.

    Pfft! There are also airbags and crumple zones and a crash-rated chassis and a rigid roof to cart around.

    Pog doesn’t need any of that extra weight when going about his business.

  25. DrLoser says:

    “Rubbing it’s molecules into pieces?” Hilarious.

    Fission is a natural process that people can harness to obtain abundant clean power. It’s unfortunate that nuclear waste is so radioactive and has a long half-life but so does granite and we have lots of it so…

    Even more hilarious, and I have actually been a proponent of fission-powered nuclear reactors since before my idiotic government decided to lay off anybody and everybody who might conceivably qualify as a nuclear engineer. I should be on your side here. But I’m not. Because “your side” is babbling incompetent mathematical ignorance.

    Logical fallacy: can you spot the discrepancy between the “clean” clause and the “unfortunately” clause?

    Statistical fallacy (not so say environmental, because you are keen on the environment, as long as it doesn’t cost nuthin’): can you quantify the difference between the radioactivity of granite and the radioactivity of nuclear waste?

    Did you really do this for a living, Robert? Those Saudis must have been awfully desperate. Maybe you told them a few Jewish jokes to warm them up.

    “How many Jews in Auschwitz does it take to turn a light-bulb on?”

    Buy yourself a Leaf. You’ll be surprise how little renewable energy it takes to cart all those extra seats around.

  26. Deaf Spy wrote, “Why don’t you buy a Leaf?”

    I don’t like the design and I don’t need to haul around empty seats. Leaf’s not nearly as efficient as Solo.

  27. Grece wrote, “as an alleged never employed nuclear physicists, when are you going to denounce nuclear fission??”

    Fission is a natural process that people can harness to obtain abundant clean power. It’s unfortunate that nuclear waste is so radioactive and has a long half-life but so does granite and we have lots of it so… Nuclear power is dangerous and capital-intensive but at least it’s not generating huge quantities of greenhouse gases.

    BTW, I worked for years as a particle accelerator physicist designing and operating nuclear particles so my education did not go to waste.

  28. Grece says:

    May the best technology win and it’s not burning petroleum and rubbing its molecules to pieces and spewing heat and hot exhaust gas into the air.

    Just a thought Robert, but that statement could be rewritten to include nuclear fission.

    “Its not burning uranium and rubbing its atoms to pieces spewing heat, in the form of cesium and strontium, while spewing heat and hot exhaust gases into the air”

    So in thought, as an alleged never employed nuclear physicists, when are you going to denounce nuclear fission??

  29. kurkosdr says:

    The Eastern German Trabant was the closest a real-life manufacturer got the Adobe, with the difference it used Duroplast instead of clay.

    Then there is the Pony, a Citroën 2CV with the worst body work imaginable, which was made in Greece (yay!)

  30. Grece says:

    Awaits the reaction from Fifi, explaining in not less then twenty paragraphs, how the Adobe is actually feasible and not just a comedy skit.

  31. DrLoser says:

    Something’s been nagging me at the back of my mind every time I see a preposterous new puff by Robert for the Solo. (Note to Kurks: it’s a “wretched little tricycle,” and I think the qualifier is important. Good that we’re both on the same page here, though.)

    I finally figured it out! What Robert really needs is the NAFTA-approved Adobe! (Apologies for the usual Youtube lead-in advert.)

    It’s been around for twenty years, and I imagine the sticker price is still $200 or so. Go on, Robert! Support the poor souls on the southern border of Trump’s capitalist swinery!

    I imagine there’ll be an all-electric version of the Adobe somewhat sooner than any realistic delivery date for the wretched little tricycle.

  32. kurkosdr says:

    Hope your wife didn’t get retired because you convinced her so because her job once demanded Windows…

    Anyway, the Solo isn’t really an option for you due to the impossibility of it being produced at hundreds of copies and your wife’s choice is irrelevant.

  33. TLW is officially retired. She still feels entitled to tell me what to do…

  34. Grece says:

    With all that said Robert, it seems TLW makes the money and tells you what to do.

  35. kurkosdr wrote, “it has one critical flaw for Pog: It is available for purchase right now”.

    Used Leafs are available at a decent price but they are few and far between here. Basically, people like them and don’t want to part with them. The main reason I don’t buy Leaf is that I don’t like the design. I would only use other seats a few times a year at best so they are utterly wasteful. The “engine” actually looks like an engine and takes up most of the front storage space, like a regular ICEd vehicle. I prefer Solo which has a tiny stack right behind the driver and doesn’t require extra cooling, lubrication, a geared transmission etc. Leaf weighs three times what Solo does and I don’t need to pay to carry around that mass on my errands. Solo costs about twice as much energy (100 miles instead of 82, and 24kWh instead of 16) to drive around as Solo. Why waste energy?

    Leaf was one of the options I suggested for TLW when we were last shopping for a car. VW TDI was the other. TLW chose a gas-guzzler instead. She never gave any reason except that it was a more expensive car by MSRP… Solo will be my choice, a car done my way.

  36. kurkosdr says:

    Tell us, Robert. Why don’t you buy a Leaf?

    Despite its obvious advantages (being highly crash-rated by EuroNCAP, having airbags, seating more than one person, being highway-capable and being built by a reputable automaker) it has one critical flaw for Pog: It is available for purchase right now. Which means that if Pogs starts boasting about wanting to buy it, he will have to either lay the money on the table or admit he was blowing hydrogen sulphide out of his capacious rear end all those times he was boasting about going electric (h/t to Doctor, I just love this phrase).

    Hence, he ‘d rather boast about how the wretched tricycle is supposedly better because it consumes less electricity (well duh, it’s a slapped-together big wheel) and how he would really buy one if he could.

  37. Deaf Spy says:

    Any time two of us have to go to the same place, two Solos would cost less than our present gas-guzzler…

    But almost the same as buying a brand new Leaf, which is here today.

    Tell us, Robert. Why don’t you buy a Leaf?

  38. Grece says:

    We’ve seen the assembly line and they do use tools.

    When did you travel to Vancouver Robert?

  39. kurkosdr wrote, “EMV has no assembly line and that they are banging these completely by hand in Jerry’s custom body shop”.

    We’ve seen the assembly line and they do use tools. Solo is not made of plasticene™.

  40. kurkosdr wrote, “not eliminating the need for the wife’s SUV, for those times two people need to be somewhere”.

    Any time two of us have to go to the same place, two Solos would cost less than our present gas-guzzler because the guzzler costs twice as much for insurance and five times as much for energy, 4/3 as much for tires, infinitely more for oil-changes etc…

  41. kurkosdr says:

    Now, don’t get me wrong, it is my firm belief that a collosal penny pincher like Pog would never lay down fifteen grand for a wretched tricycle of unknown reliability that only seats one (thus not eliminating the need for the wife’s SUV, for those times two people need to be somewhere). Not when he could buy a Leaf for 2/3rds of the price. He just likes to boast about having an electric car someday (much like he likes to boast about someday replacing Beast with an ARM board), and he thinks the Solo EV with its never-to-be-delivered status fits the bill perfectly.

    Which is exactly what I am trying to teach Pog: Every con has to have a degree of believability in it and his hasn’t.

  42. kurkosdr says:

    The true kicker is not the 19 vehicles produced so far, it’s how the “ramp up” is going in overall (which wouldn’t surprise me if it was actually a ramp down with EMV running out of cash and parts).

    Allow me to remind the gullible Pogs of this world that EMV has no assembly line and that they are banging these completely by hand in Jerry’s custom body shop.

    But hey, a Chinese assembly line is coming. There is no official confirmation for it but I want to believe!

  43. Grece says:

    Thought EM already had certification and that you would receive your Solo this year?

    Nineteen per quarter will never work, that is only seventy-six per year.

    Nineteen per month will never work, that is only two-hundred and twenty-six per year.

    Nineteen per week will never work, that is only nine-hundred and eighty-eight per year.

    See where this is going?

  44. Grece wrote, “that “tech” was known about almost eighteen years ago”.

    No, it was not. Read TFA and you will see they retain some water to provide more perfect electrodes. What was known 18 years ago is the chemical used, lithium titanate. What’s new is putting it into an end product in a useful form. It’s no good if the electrode deteriorates rapidly. The new method prevents that.

  45. Grece wrote, “we are 30-days into Q1 2018 and not one SOLO has rolled off the assembly line”.

    Last I heard 19 had been produced. Major production is not scheduled until Q3 2018. That’s doable if they have certification.

  46. Grece says:

    Seriously Robert that “tech” was known about almost eighteen years ago.

    https://www.google.com/patents/US6139815

    ROLLS-EYES

    Besides, we are 30-days into Q1 2018 and not one SOLO has rolled off the assembly line.

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