Fakest News?

“The cost to charge an EV already is more than the cost to fuel an internal combustion engine vehicle (for the same distance traveled).”
 
See comment by Jim Redmond in response to The electric vehicle revolution is coming, but is the infrastructure in place to maintain it?

I like numbers. They can be so unambiguous.

Consider the ElectraMeccanica Solo EV. The nominal range is 160km. The capacity of the battery is nominally 16.1 kWh but it probably takes 18 kWh from the utility to do the charging. Still, that’s about 9km per kWh, about 1₵ a km.

Consider the Nissan Leaf. The nominal range for 24kWh is 132km, about 5.5 km per kWh, about 2₵ a km.

Meanwhile, my gas-guzzler is rated by the EPA at 25mpg, 40km for 3.8L, $3.80 CDN, 9.5₵/km.

Then, we could count oil-changes, servicing the damned ICE, and changing the damned battery every five years. It’s no contest. Give up, luddites.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.

This entry was posted in Teaching, technology and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

77 Responses to Fakest News?

  1. oiaohm says:

    Grece really you are the one who like talking nobody. Petey is not here. Heck that not a title that is even used to refer to Peter Dolding you reference by anyone of standing.

    The reality here Grece is you are a Nobody who attempt to make himself fell like someone important by using name calling and wild guess.

  2. Grece says:

    Yes Petey. You are a nobody.

  3. oiaohm says:

    https://www.mail-archive.com/linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org/msg01876.html
    Grece would have paid to follow down the thread before commenting.
    That turns into a case where Casey Schaufler got told to pull head in by more senior maintainer.

    Besides that topic has nothing to-do with what Robert raised. Its just you Grece being his normal incompetent idiot. Making wild guess as normal and still attempting to reference people who are not here to defend self. Casey wants to forget that goof up.

    Really Grece the Hamdong strike again.

  4. Grece says:

    To: Peter Dolding oiaohm-AT-gmail.com

  5. Grece says:

    To: Peter Dolding

  6. Grece says:

    Really HamDong?

    https://lwn.net/Articles/256597/

    To: Peter Dolding

  7. oiaohm says:

    So now Ivan the moron as well still taking to no one. Expecting someone to do something is no here. Really how dump are you guys you cannot request something of someone who not here. Right you are complete idiots.

  8. Ivan says:

    Hey Petey, translate your gibberish into English before you post.

  9. oiaohm says:

    I respond because is fun to laugh at a moron Grece. And you are a moron. No one here is Fifi either. So asking a question of someone who is no here like a absolute idiot as normal.

    You are a nut case who thinks just because you get a answer that has to be the person name. This is a open forum and anyone reading the forum is free to respond if they wish to you moron Grece. Of course you have been a idiot in this way for so long is not funny.

  10. Grece says:

    Tell me Fifi, why do you always respond back, if I am talking to no one, hmmm?

  11. oiaohm says:

    Yes, HamDong, you can copy & paste.
    So you can do something Grece the HamDong. Have you forgotten that you are HamDong. Does not change the fact Grece is idiot who cannot get facts right.

  12. Grece says:

    Yes, HamDong, you can copy & paste.

  13. oiaohm says:

    Hammy that is the most TRUTHFUL statement you have ever made here.
    LOOOL so here is insane grece talking to another nobody who has never been here. Wonder when grece will find its medication to prevent him from seeing and talking to non existing things.

    Let me clarify myself succinctly, THEY ARE DEAD! If a lead-acid battery no longer takes a charge then it is sulfated and known as DEAD, being not useful for other purposes.

    Don’t you know basic lead acid battery chemistry.
    http://www.batteryrestoration.com/images/pdf/WHY%20BATTERIES%20DIE%20PREMATURELY.pdf
    There are 6 causes of lead acid batteries to play dead or be dead.

    Sulfated is a zombie lead acid battery. Yes it playing dead with the right treatment it will come back to life. Correct treatment in liquid cell is a more forceful charge system that could cause powder to be produced and cause a direct short. In gel cells you are not in trouble due to the sulfated state you are in trouble because using a more forceful charge will increase H2 production and effectively dry out the electrolyte.

    Mechanical Failure where you have like direct shorts in the cells or no lead panel those are close to completely dead. Overheated can result harming the housing to the point it will not hold the electrolyte those are dead. Age reference is normally about the plastic casing or the fact you in gel types have run out of water with no way to replace it.

    Incorrect Charging can lead to fragments of lead breaking away and dropping to the bottom of battery and causing trouble.

    Grece the mentally ill clueless really should stop attempt to have any smart comments.

  14. Grece says:

    OTH, what oiaohm was writing about was not using dead batteries in trains but other “drive trains”, ie. other battery systems, like NiFe, NimH, or NiCd. These all have much longer useful lives than lead-acid. I’ve rarely seen a lead-acid cell be useful after five years in vehicles.

    Please Robert, I have many years under my belt with using batteries of various shapes and sizes, but capturing DEAD lead-acid batteries and utilizing said DEAD doesn’t work.

    Let me clarify myself succinctly, THEY ARE DEAD! If a lead-acid battery no longer takes a charge then it is sulfated and known as DEAD, being not useful for other purposes.

  15. Grece says:

    Grece still talking to nobody.

    Hammy that is the most TRUTHFUL statement you have ever made here.

  16. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson NiFe is very hard to beat for a lot of usages. But in forklifts they can have a same problem as the lead acid. When charging the NiFe just like the lead acid can put of hydrogen and that can collect up in a cold room over time and turn into a nightmare.

    Lithium iron phosphate batteries don’t bleed hydrogen when charging.

    Inadequate ventilation is quite a common problem where forklifts are used.

    It kind of straight forwards why you would rework the drivetrain when you have swapped from Lead acid to one of the non hydrogen bleeding batteries. Hydrogen bleeding batteries when charging also prevents you from using them safely for regenerative braking. The swap from DC motor to AC motor does a few things.
    1) reduces engine maintenance cost a heck of a lot.
    2) allows smoother less spiky power draw lot of the non hydrogen bleeding batteries don’t like spiky power draws.
    3) allows regenerative braking
    4) better torque.

    The allows regenerative braking means redoing the mechanical drive train normally removing clutches and altering the braking system to take advantage of regenerative. Regenerative braking also gives longer operation time between charges.

    Better torque curves compared to DC motors also means able to strip out gearboxes at times with the change to AC motor. So a forklift DC motor with Lead acid batteries go in and forklift AC motor with Lithium iron phosphate batteries come out. To do it right motor, batteries and drive-train have had changes. Some cases the old drive-train would be just have been modified other cases completely replaced sometimes because the lead acid batteries had leaked.

    Robert the drivetrain I was referring to was the mechanical. Changing battery type is not that straight forwards with forklifts because you go from a battery that you cannot use regenerative braking safely to a battery where you can use regenerative braking safely and that results in having to change a few more things.

  17. Grece wrote, “explain to us how people can recoup dead lead-acid batteries”.

    Lead is one of the most recycled metals. That’s why it’s so cheap. Miners have to compete with previously extracted lead. Basically, one remelts the lead metal and refined the oxidized lead as well. Old lead-acid batteries are very rich ore.

    OTH, what oiaohm was writing about was not using dead batteries in trains but other “drive trains”, ie. other battery systems, like NiFe, NimH, or NiCd. These all have much longer useful lives than lead-acid. I’ve rarely seen a lead-acid cell be useful after five years in vehicles. The deep-discharge kind are better but they don’t come close to NiFe. These days, lead-acid has to compete with many other technologies. The tractor-factory where I worked one year actually used propane for their forklifts but they didn’t seem to care about the lungs of workers. That’s why I left there, inadequate ventilation. They even allowed workers and managers to smoke on the job. Yuck.

  18. oiaohm says:

    Grece still talking to nobody.

    Lets make out that someone who is not here does not know the answer right Grece. Why because asking a person properly is only going to prove how big of a idiot Grece is.

    Grece is only referencing insulting names because he knows is a moron and is not willing to face proper debate.

  19. Grece says:

    Doesn’t matter Petey, explain to us how people can recoup dead lead-acid batteries. If you can do that, you’d be worth millions.

  20. oiaohm says:

    LOL Grece. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drivetrain
    Cannot read basic english.

    Drive train, Drive-train and Drivetrain are all the same thing its only regional differences.

    Excuse me, but if the batteries are already dead, please explain why they would be used to refit in trains?
    So try again and write it correctly. And if you want an answer use my handle. You have no right to expect an answer other than laughing at you if you don’t.

  21. Grece says:

    LOL…

    I do have the cites that back up how often lead acid batteries die in forklifts. There are firms that refit them to other drive trains and battery configurations.

    Excuse me, but if the batteries are already dead, please explain why they would be used to refit in trains?

  22. oiaohm says:

    Ivan really you are just challenging for the heck of it. I do have the cites that back up how often lead acid batteries die in forklifts. There are firms that refit them to other drive trains and battery configurations.

    Reality here your clueless you are just attacking me because it me. You are that clueless that you don’t understand what I wrote. This is normal. If I am wrong where is your cite proving it. Maybe after you do some research you will come back and admit you have just been a idiot jack ass. No cites unless you use my correct handle that is a rule I stick to. You have called me names I don’t bring in cites for you.

  23. Ivan says:

    One more time, for posterity:

    I have driven them but known about the drive train is serving them.

    I never said that is was for 1 forklift did I.

    Just what the hell are you trying to say, Petey? Whatever it is, it is not supporting your supposition on battery replacement and comes off as random gibberish.

  24. Deaf Spy wrote, “When rules are not equal for all, the market is no longer free, period.”

    The rules were equal for all. Every Norwegian was allowed and encouraged to buy an EV, not just the rich or well-connected? Oh! You mean the auto-makers? They don’t care whether they make ICEd vehicles or EVs as long as they sell and EVs did sell.

  25. Deaf Spy says:

    Norway has a free market.
    No, it doesn’t. When rules are not equal for all, the market is no longer free, period. Norwegian government is skewing the market heavily to favor EVs, which otherwise would have never be competitive.

  26. Deaf Spy wrote, “EV have no chance on the free market.”

    Norway has a free market. Their government was chosen by the people in a free market of politicians. Their politicians may have tweaked the market but people still chose to buy the EVs knowing that was the case and welcoming it. In USA, home of the free market, EVs did very well.

    https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

    21K EVs sold in USA in September. Those folks could have bought ICEd vehicles but freely chose not to do that. Again, purchase price is not the only influence in consumers’ choices. Many prefer lower maintenance, quiet/clean operation, more miles/$ and less pollution.

  27. Deaf Spy says:

    Robert is not reading his own sources again:

    “Among the existing incentives, all-electric cars and utility vans are exempt in Norway from all non-recurring vehicle fees, including purchase taxes, which are extremely high for ordinary cars, and 25% VAT on purchase, together making electric car purchase price competitive with conventional cars.”

    In other words, that growth in sales is a result of a very heavy government push. EV have no chance on the free market.

  28. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson problem is dc engine forklifts are a pigs. They are using closer to your normal car batteries including have to top up fluids. Forklift lead acid batteries have 7 times thicker plates and that is about the end of the differences. Why closer to normal car batteries high amperage for the dc engine normally paired with them.

    Next is the way they treat batteries. Lot only have a low power when the battery is 80% flat/20% remaining. So basically dc engine lead acid forklifts the engine is trash, the controller of the batteries is trash and the lifespan of the batteries is poor and the forklift is slightly cheaper than a ac engine forklift that has many things more correct. Its a real case you got what you paid for. Yes if the maker of the forklift has gone for decent ac engine they normally go for some better battery than lead acid. You do find NeFe batteries in some of the better more expensive forklifts. Lead acid batteries in a forklift get very suspect that the engine and controller is going to have issues due to those being the cheapest constructed option.

    Lot of people make the mistake thinking a lead acid forklift will have a life span like proper deep cycle batteries and they don’t.

  29. oiaohm wrote, “on average a lead acid powered forklift remains in operation about 3 years before it need new batteries”.

    That’s surprising. I thought most used deep-discharge batteries that lasted much longer. I looked into lead acid and decided on NiFe for my solar storage because of the indefinite lifetime. Lead-acid would be much cheaper to buy but over the their lifetime cost more because of periodic replacement. Who knows? I could live another 20 years and replacing batteries when I would be that old is daunting. I’d rather install NiFes now while I’m able. Another good use for my hoist and cart…

  30. Deaf Spy wrote, “So, the numbers are irrelevant for you. And relevant to basically 90% of car-buyers in Europe. EVs are simply a greenie hype.”

    According to Wikipedia, “The Norwegian plug-in electric vehicle market share of new car sales has been the highest in the world for several years, achieving 29.1% in 2016, up from 22.4% in 2015, and 13.8% in 2014.” I guess they are all greenies…

  31. Deaf Spy says:

    Well, I’m not buying a Nissan and Ford won’t sell me a diesel, so these numbers are irrelevant. There are reasons I want a Solo EV

    So, the numbers are irrelevant for you. And relevant to basically 90% of car-buyers in Europe. EVs are simply a greenie hype. Good thing is that the press in EU is increasingly seeing the light and not drinking greenies’ Kool-Aid.

  32. oiaohm says:

    Ivan do you know how long on average a lead acid powered forklift remains in operation about 3 years before it need new batteries. This is because a lead acid has a max full charge cycles of about 1500 with part charges costing a full cycle off the battery. Well made Lithium iron phosphate battery has 10000 cycles with part charges only counting as a percentage and you also get more power capacity in same space so more hours of operation. Also you don’t have hydrogen production to worry about so no need to have staff unloading and loading batteries and risking back injuries you have to pay for these days.

    So new forklift or refit old forklift with new controller batteries and possibly motor. Lot of the old forklifts have the old DC motors requiring a hell of a lot of maintenance as well. Its only recently that the costs have moved so that the Lithium iron phosphate batteries option is cheapest long term.

    So if lead acid batteries from EV were not properly recycled we would have huge mountain of batteries from the EV forklifts.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Ivan I never said that is was for 1 forklift did I. There are a lot of electric forklifts every year at the end of their batteries operational life and the forklift either has to be fully replaced or the battery replaced. If vendor of forklift no longer exists you have to custom order from a firm that makes batteries on demand. Vendor not existing is quite a common problem thinking the first electric forklift appears on the market in 1913 and models have appeared every year since.

    Electric golf carts don’t appear until 1951.

    None of what you babbled about supported your supposition that forklift batteries need to be replace a lot.
    Basically this is you just being clueless. Forklifts is the old form of EV and the most mass produced EV at this stage. That should change.

    The reality you need to replace a lot of forklift batteries because there is a hell of a lot of EV forklifts out there that are now at the end of their battery life.

    Ivan same way you are being a idiot and presuming that petey is a name of mine is why you were clueless you presumed when I said a lot for forklift batteries need replacing I was in error. The error was yours as normal.

  34. Ivan says:

    I have driven them but known about the drive train is serving them.

    Again: What the hell are you trying to say here, Petey?

    None of what you babbled about supported your supposition that forklift batteries need to be replace a lot.

  35. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson
    The big contribution is the small parts-count in motion, just two bearings on the shaft to wear.
    The same bearing in the electric engines out last same bearing in the ICE engine. Heating the material of the bearing makes it softer and wear faster. The operating temperature difference can cut the lifespan of the bearing in the ICE to 1/10.

    So it both small parts count and lower temperature stresses on those parts. So AC electric engine and ICE engine built using the same bearings the ICE engine will need the bearing replaced many years sooner.

    Robert there are different synthetic oils. The synthetic oils designed to be filtered and filtered not needing to be replace every year the best are only rated down to -25 to -30C at that point they turn to non moving molasses. The reality here most people don’t run ideal Robert. Ideal in the weather conditions where you are would see you using two different oils. The oils that go down to -40 and -65C contain items that burn off and add any introduced contamination in the oil. This also end up with more seed locations in the oil for movable water drops to form and put ice crystals where you don’t want them.

    Living in a cold area make running ICE engines a little more complex. The worst part is everything you do the oil to avoid to turning into non moving molasses results in water not separating out of the oil the way it should and the oil being able to absorb water faster. Its not just the EGR that is the problem. Its the chemistry of the oil that makes the EGR not working cause bigger nightmare than it should.

    Main reason I know all this is coldest temperature a standard cold room has to be is -20C. When I was younger it was not strange to use ICE engine forklifts in them with the exact systems grece talked about. That the cold room temperature is meant to be only -20C malfunctions do happen and end up with like -30C in there and the forklift stuffed then it came why don’t we use oil rated to -35C or -65C so that never happens again. Then all the side effects of those oils came then end up being replaced by fitting temperature sensor to forklift that cuts engine start when too cold and swapping back to the -25C oil this was the cheapest long term option. If the forklift would not work there was another important issue to deal with. After all these years is now -30C instead of -25C with improvements in chemical make-up.

    Forklifts doing lots of short moves and never getting the EGR heated up is nothing strange.

    I see grece is talking to made up people again because he does not know how to do even a basic google search to check if his statements are anywhere near correct.

  36. Grece says:

    How long did it take you to research all this via Google Petey?

    We all know, that you don’t know any of this material, and are nothing but copy-pasting material that you read. Besides that, we know that you cannot drive and don’t own a vehicle, but sure can talk a load of crap on ANY subject matter.

    Now run along, poke your head upstairs and see if mommy made you a sandwich.

  37. oiaohm wrote, “Part of why a AC electric engine has such a long life is its running colder than the ICE engines ever can.”

    That’s true but it’s a small contribution. The big contribution is the small parts-count in motion, just two bearings on the shaft to wear. The shaft and the rotor just spin and perhaps have some vibration. The bearings are made to very high tolerances and polish as they wear. I have seen some roller bearings fail after two years but that was on a lemonade vehicle. A ball-bearing on my first roto-tiller lasted 20 years and kept working even after it had lost its seals and had plenty of slop. An electric motor is just about the perfect place for a good bearing. It has very limited loads and is usually quite clean. Compare that with an ICE that might have over 1000 parts and many of them reciprocating and suffering periodic deflections.

    oiaohm also wrote, “In colder areas periodic oil changes in ICE should still kind be performed 2 times a year.”

    There are several issues with cold operation. One is high viscosity at start-up preventing uniform lubrication of valves and pistons. At -40C most engine oil is like molasses. Most Canadians where I live use 5W-30 mineral oil to deal with the cold. I used to do that but TLW managed to get my vehicles to fail to start too often so we switched to synthetic oil which has a pour-point around -65C and avoids most of these problems.

    The other problem with cold weather is that combustion produces water as an exhaust gas and some will condense on the walls or get bypassed when the engine is cold and water accumulates in the sump. This is supposed to get cleaned up by EGR when the engine heats up but that doesn’t work in cities where trips are often short. Water is not a good lubricant and crystals can block oil-passages, so most cars recommend two or three oil-changes per annum even if one uses synthetic oil. Others always plug in their engine block-heaters to keep engines warm at start. Since I began using synthetic oil I’ve quit using block-heaters. My snowblower starts easily even at -35C with 5W-30 mineral oil because it has a choke and I know how to use it. It’s 25 years old and is beginning to fall apart but the engine is the least of its problems. I did have some problems with water in the fuel a couple of years ago but now I know to get rid of the “summer” gasoline before the weather gets really cold. The winter gasoline has some methanol in it to keep the water in solution, if any.

  38. oiaohm says:

    Robert Pogson lead acids get nasty in cold rooms.
    http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/discharging_at_high_and_low_temperatures
    There are a lot of horible things that happen to lead acids as their electrolyte comes frozen. One of those is producing lead powder that settles to the bottom of cell and come worthless/possible shorting. So lead acids lose capacity in cold because its not good for them.

    Also, claiming “engine has 10 years+ of 24/7 operation with zero maintenance” is another mere fabrication. Any motor requires periodic maintenance, electric or otherwise. Unless you somehow can defeat the second law of thermodynamics.
    This is just you being a complete idiot.
    https://www.controldesign.com/assets/Media/MediaManager/wp_070910_DM_ACMotorsDrives.pdf
    Page for of this PDF go read page 4 grece. How often do you replace you engine drive shaft bearings. Yes all motors require periodic maintenance but the design of the engine defines how large that is. So when you make the first part to fail the drive shaft bearings you end up with engines with 10+ year lifespans.

    AC electric engines systems have got rid of almost every part that can fail inside 10 years. On the engine used in the solo first inspection of engine is after 5 years worth of hours operation and that is optional inspection. That not change anything that just inspect that shaft is still inside tolerance to check bearing wear and possible rotate engine location to level out wear. First possible parts changing service is after 10 years worth of hours of operation and that is bearings and that if you did not do the 5 year engine position alteration.

    Thermodynamics first part of this is referring to heat. Part of why a AC electric engine has such a long life is its running colder than the ICE engines ever can. So thermodynamics is working slower leading to these massively long service cycles.

    Now driving a car you are not doing 24/7 operation its going to take more than 10 years to reach the first inspection point of 5 years of hours of operation.

    Reality in Electrics using AC engines for thermodynamic issues that will happen in a short time(being less than 10 years) you don’t look at the engine. The bigger risk of failure is the controller or batteries and combinations of both that is where the most thermodynamic stress will be.

    LOL, Robert you silly old man. Oil changes are done as needed, which if used with a bypass filter, a high micron filter and periodic oil analysis, periodic oil changes are a thing of the past.
    Grece good in idiot theory because you include two parts with issues. Does not work were Robert is with colder temperatures. Cold thickens the oil then it does not get processed by the high micron filter and worst case it does not bypass either so you end up with a engine spinning with no oil. When you add something to oil prevent that you create another set of problems leading to 2 oil changes a year at least.

    In colder areas periodic oil changes in ICE should still kind be performed 2 times a year. For a slightly different reason than just keeping the oil clean. Its anti-freeze/anti-thickening solution in the oil for winter to keep it following properly in winter. You don’t need it when it warm and it burns making the oil dirty faster. Grece the winter engine oil in cold area does everything Robert said due to the added agents. Of course nothing says that winter engine oil could not be removed processed and stored for next winter and you do the same with the summer oil. So ICE colder areas 2 lots of oil for the engine is require min due to needing two different oil mixes. Also colder areas will use up their oil filters faster on the winter oil mixes.

    Warmer areas don’t have this problem and can get away with what you suggested.

    See if you had any experience with electric forklifts or had spoken with any forklift maintenance technician, you’d know that was nonsense.
    Ivan when do you need to tune the controller. Its not the maintenance technician. Its when you are doing reconditioning. This when electric forklift is having it drive train replaced normally when its 20 years old. Why would you recondition them because the old chassis even with age are stronger than a lot of the new ones.

    Also a general forklift maintenance technician is not allow to fit a generic controller. This has to go to proper engineering works with rolling roads and training in how to tune it then lock it so it is safe. It can be important to be able to fit a generic controller when the maker of the forklift is no more and the controller you have has died. At the point controller dies you sometimes find out what the true max speed of the forklift is of course depending on how the controller dies and is a very good reason to make sure the controller in a electric forklift is replace in line with makers recommendations unless you do not value your life.

    So used grece and ivan name calling again and being totally clueless.

  39. Ivan says:

    I have driven them but known about the drive train is serving them.

    What the hell are you trying to say here, Petey?

    That the drive train is able to do a max of 200km/h does not mean the controller will allow it under normal conditions.

    This is irrelevant to you driving forklifts.

    why would you need custom battery packs for electric forklifts a lot.

    See if you had any experience with electric forklifts or had spoken with any forklift maintenance technician, you’d know that was nonsense. They really don’t need to be replaced a lot unless some know-it-all expert on everything under the sun mistreats it.

  40. Grece says:

    What do those cost and does Lexus have them? Lots and no.

    A few hundred quid perhaps less if you are mechanically inclined, and of course Lexus does not. They rather sell you a new engine. An oil-bypass filter is mainly DIY Robert.

    https://www.clublexus.com/forums/gx-1st-gen-2004-2009/807238-gx470-remote-oil-filter-bypass-install.html

  41. Grece wrote, “Oil changes are done as needed, which if used with a bypass filter, a high micron filter and periodic oil analysis, periodic oil changes are a thing of the past. “

    What do those cost and does Lexus have them? Lots and no.

  42. Grece wrote, “your unheated garage, full of junk Robert, is inadequate to store the Solo”.

    1. The garage is heated by conduction from the house and thermal contact with Earth. It’s much warmer in there than outside.
    2. We have a 3-car garage. I use one stall for my workshop. That leaves two for the stinking SUV and perhaps two Solos, because they are so small. The space for cars is ~22 feet wide and ~22 feet long. We could park one SUV in that and two Solos “spooning”. The Lexus is 4.755m long and 1.74m wide. The Solo is 3.04m long but only 1.34m wide at the widest part and .67m wide at the tail. There’s room to spare to park two Solos beside the SUV if TLW insists on keeping it until it dies…
  43. Grece says:

    An ICE typically requires oil-changes twice a year or more often in heavy use or bad conditions. An ICE usually requires valve clearance adjustment, valve-timing belt replacement, EGR valve, coolant, transmission oil and sparkplug replacement at longer intervals, probably five years.

    LOL, Robert you silly old man. Oil changes are done as needed, which if used with a bypass filter, a high micron filter and periodic oil analysis, periodic oil changes are a thing of the past.

    All the other things you mention, mostly, do NOT apply to diesel engines. But you hate working on vehicles anyways, so why do you even care.

  44. Grece says:

    For Solo’s commuters, the effect of cold from a warm garage to a charging station at work and back is probably insignificant if the normal range greatly exceeds the round trip.

    But your unheated garage, full of junk Robert, is inadequate to store the Solo. So in that case, you will suffer the cold weather losses with the battery. So, with an 8kWh battery, you are limited to perhaps a 50% derating at best at 0F. Cold temperature increases the internal resistance and lowers the capacity.

    Another thing that has been nagging at me Robert. You cannot in any way, obtain 100% from said battery. If the battery is rated for say 8kWh, then you will ONLY achieve 80% of that value or about 6.4kWh at any giving time.

    With that all said, your looking at 4-6kWh of use depending on the weather.

  45. Grece wrote, “Any motor requires periodic maintenance, electric or otherwise.”

    Technically, that’s true, but irrelevant. An ICE typically requires oil-changes twice a year or more often in heavy use or bad conditions. An ICE usually requires valve clearance adjustment, valve-timing belt replacement, EGR valve, coolant, transmission oil and sparkplug replacement at longer intervals, probably five years. The intermittent use of an EV’s motor probably causes no issues for the life of the vehicle. The bearings are about the only wearable part and they are under very light load compared to wheel-bearings which run a thousand pounds of weight, and exposure to water and dust. I’ve seen sleeve bearings of motors run 10 years of continuous use. Ball bearings should last indefinitely in a Solo EV.

  46. Grece says:

    HamDong, none of the links you provided, do anything to support your statement that EVs and forklifts are the same.

    Also, claiming “engine has 10 years+ of 24/7 operation with zero maintenance” is another mere fabrication. Any motor requires periodic maintenance, electric or otherwise. Unless you somehow can defeat the second law of thermodynamics.

    Knowing that you magically alter wifi, and can write doctor script with them marfan hands, I am not surprised that you can break known physical laws.

  47. oiaohm wrote, “Does not loss as much charge compare to a lead acid in a cold room.”

    Charge in a secondary cell is just chemistry. Charging changes the chemicals on one or both electrodes. Discharge reverses the process. Changing temperature does not change the charge of a cell. The chemical changes are not a phase-change, but changes of molecules. What temperature does affect is the mobility of the charge-carriers and the voltage of the cell, so if you charge at 20º C and discharge at -20º C you will lose energy, but if you charge at 20º C, cool to -20º C, then warm to 20º C and discharge, you will not lose energy. The idea of warming the battery of an EV is to make the charge/discharge cycle more efficient. In the case of lithium batteries, low temperatures cause the cell voltage to drop, mobility of ions to decrease drastically and the internal resistance of cells to increase. The battery is still usable below -20º C but the range is reduced. For Solo’s commuters, the effect of cold from a warm garage to a charging station at work and back is probably insignificant if the normal range greatly exceeds the round trip.

  48. oiaohm says:

    Petey, everything you just wrote is a fabrication. You cannot compare fork-lifts to EVs. There motors and batteries are entirely different.
    https://www.controldesign.com/assets/Media/MediaManager/wp_070910_DM_ACMotorsDrives.pdf
    AC synchronous electric motor 86 horse power found in the Solo is found in some electric forklifts like it or not.

    HPEV AC 35-26.25.11 in the solo.
    http://www.hpevs.com/hpevs-ac-electric-motors-ac34-ac35-for-automotive-mining-utility-ground-support-vehicles%20.htm
    Is this one. So not depending on EM for this engine.

    Fork lift is listed on that page under Utility Vehicles. Maybe you could not find that is was a pure stock standard engine because there was one extra – on the spec sheet of the solo that should not have been there.

    The engine has 10 years+ of 24/7 operation with zero maintenance. So its service cycle is insanely long and that is moving water and other things. So the solo has a insanely dependable engine.

    The same time of lithium ion batteries what is in the solo is in the electric fork-lifts using AC synchronous electric motors. Does not loss as much charge compare to a lead acid in a cold room.

    I’m guessing you’ve never driven a forklift in your life, Petey.
    I have driven them but known about the drive train is serving them. That the drive train is able to do a max of 200km/h does not mean the controller will allow it under normal conditions. The max of the drive train is required for service when you sit it on a rolling road for system tuning so you use one able to take worst possible setting. The service manual says what the max speed it should go-to on the rolling road and what the drive train can do if you set it completely wrong.

    Ivan why would you need custom battery packs for electric forklifts a lot. Lead acid systems being swapped to newer cell types to tolerate cold rooms better. Electric forklifts that are over 20 years old are still in service. Yes motor, controller and batteries have been updated.

    Which market Robert? Yes you can buy a few 18650s, but you cannot splice in new cells to the existing array.
    You can buy a bolt assemble array that will fit into the solo trays http://vruzend.com/ Its not like you have to spot weld.

    You don’t exactly splice them in. You can cut units out the packs and terminal the vruzend stuff in. Being box shape this kind of stuff is possible. When the solo started vruzend kits were not in the market but the tray for the batteries in the solo will take a vruzend kit.

    See naming calling people knew absolutely nothing. Working around citrus means I was dealing with electric fork lifts for cold rooms quite a lot. I worked in properly spare parts for a while.

    The engine in the solo is a very commonly used engine in fork lifts, golf carts…… The battery pack is replaceable using kit assembly or custom order without Electra Meccanica.

    So basically naming calling Ivan and Grece are morons as normal every time they name call they don’t have facts right.

  49. Grece wrote, “you were whining on soloowners.net about the measly 8kWh battery and how limiting it’s range would be!”

    I’m not the typical commuter. I will be mostly driving on the highway and 8kWh would likely cut out some choice spots I can easily reach with 16.1kWh. Most cities in Canada have people living here and working there. The typical Solo owner will be able to drive to and from work recharging every two or three days. To them the range doesn’t matter at all.

  50. Grece, not understanding English, wrote, “the Solo already is in production, so are you saying it isn’t now?”.

    There’s the future and the past. They are different. Solos were made differently in the past than they will be in the future. Last year, EMV sent an 8KW battery to USA for testing which showed up on NHTSA’s database. For some tests, NHTSA won’t care about the capacity of the battery. Would you care about the capacity of the battery when checking the functionality of the mirrors or the controls?

  51. Grece wrote, “you are too much a tight-ass to heat your garage, which is stuffed with so much junk, that you cannot even use it. Hence the reasoning for welding outside in the cold the prior year.”

    My previous shop was twice the size so I had room for welding indoors. Welding is dangerous near flammable materials. That is all. I have gasoline, oil, cardboard, paper, solvents etc. in the garage. It’s silly to risk burning down the house when the driveway is within easy reach.

    We used the wiring that went to heat the garage to supply the welder. I could put it back or switch it if I wanted. We did heat the garage one winter. It was good that it melted the ice/snow from the car but there was no other benefit, so I switched the heater off. All the wiring and heater and plumbing are still there in concrete slab. As I’ve said before the garage is much warmer than ambient because some of our geothermal (cheap) heat leaks from the wall of the house. I’ve often worked there barehanded or with thin gloves in the middle of winter. I assembled the Chinese tractor in winter in the garage with no heating. Temperature was not a problem. Lack of assembly instructions was.

  52. Grece wrote, “how are you going determine when you have a bad cell in your array”.

    Measure open-circuit voltages. There are about 1000 cells in the battery so a divide and conquer method is in order. Pick some size of subset and measure the voltage of its cells in series. Dead cells will be indicated by a low voltage for a subset. In those subsets refine the search again. Voltmeters can easily measure to millivolts so a few volts lower reading is easy to spot.

    If there are only a few dead cells, they can be ignored as the system is flexible enough to deal with that unless the maximum range is required. No one recommends routinely driving the battery flat because that increases the chances of damaging cells.

    Grece wrote, “let alone tear said array part, then spot-weld a new cell in said array?”

    Sigh. You do realize that what can be assembled in some order can be disassembled in the reverse order, eh? EMV is not welding 500 cells into some monolithic unit. They have sub-modules which combine to make a battery-tray. One just has to disassemble the smallest unit if necessary. We’ve seen video of them assembling a module. I don’t remember how many cells were involved. If the whole battery has a capacity of 16.1kWh and each cell can hold 16.1Wh, that takes a thousand cells. The voltage of the battery comes to 144V and cell voltages are about 3.6V nominally so I estimate there are 40 modules of 3.6V each made up of 25 cells. That could be an array of 5X5 cells in parallel, or they could have 25 modules of 40 cells in series. I don’t know what geometry they use but I can take any of them apart. If they are welded, I can “undo” the welds. Yes, I am that good.

  53. Grece says:

    Apparently drivers of Solo have no concerns about range.

    That is an ignorant thing to say Pog. Everyone is concerned about range! Hell you were whining on soloowners.net about the measly 8kWh battery and how limiting it’s range would be!

    http://soloowners.net/showthread.php?tid=735

  54. Grece says:

    Yes, I can. I’ve been working with batteries, wiring, welding, steel, etc. since the 1960s.

    Tell me, how are you going determine when you have a bad cell in your array, let alone tear said array part, then spot-weld a new cell in said array?

  55. Grece says:

    have a heated/insulated garage. I don’t heat it

    So you are too much a tight-ass to heat your garage, which is stuffed with so much junk, that you cannot even use it. Hence the reasoning for welding outside in the cold the prior year.

  56. Grece says:

    The production models will be 16.1kWh.

    According to you Pog, the Solo already is in production, so are you saying it isn’t now? It’s either IN production or is NOT in production, which is it?

  57. Grece wrote, “Yes you can buy a few 18650s, but you cannot splice in new cells to the existing array.”

    Yes, I can. I’ve been working with batteries, wiring, welding, steel, etc. since the 1960s. It’s not rocket-science, but I can do that too. Further, if I become too old to be able or interested in doing that I know a business in Winnipeg that rebuilds all kinds of batteries. They’ve been around for decades. I imagine the interest in EVs will increase their business. I’m not the least worried about the battery, however. Nissan reports they’ve replaced only a tiny fraction of their existing fleet of cars that has been growing for 7 years now. If people were having trouble with range, they would have been replacing batteries wholesale by now.

  58. Kurkosdr wrote, “Range is approximate and depends on road conditions, road incline, driving style and whether the heating is on while driving or not.
     
    Unambiguous, eh?”

    Apparently drivers of Solo have no concerns about range. Many don’t even plug in every day because they are commuters. I will drive mostly on highways and I will know my limitations if any. The instrument panel has a readout just like an ICEd vehicle has a fuel-gauge.

    I’m very aware of road-conditions, speed, wind, stuff like that. Those affect ICEd vehicles too.

    Many drivers are totally oblivious to those things and will drive a bit over the speed-limit all the time… I was once in a convoy travelling about 400 miles with a tail-wind. The other drivers were very annoyed that I kept to 80 km/h reducing the air-drag on the big box truck I drove. They had no clue that the drag increases with the square of the speed and counted on the trip being shorter to “save fuel”. Of course, fuel is closely related to drag X distance, regardless of speed. Reduce the drag and fuel consumption goes down. There comes a point of vanishing return, about city-speeds, but on the highway reducing speed pays dividends to unpaid drivers.

  59. Kurkosdr wrote, “have you factored in how much wattage per hour the heater will pull and how it will affect the price per km?”

    That’s silly. Of course I have. I have a heated/insulated garage. I don’t heat it but I could and the temperature in there rarely drops below -20C because it traps heat from the wall of the house and blocks the wind. So, a bit of heat will be needed for optimal charging. I won’t make any long trips in winter so I doubt that will affect my range at all. My longest trip according to Google is about 68km round, about half the normal range, likely typical of -20C temperatures. A little heating of the battery would make it a safe bet. I don’t know the details of the heating system EMV plans. They could, for instance, use waste heat from the motor but I expect some resistive heating inside the battery-compartment would do. Then, there’s my body heat in the cabin. Some of that will reach the battery adjacent to my butt.

  60. Grece wrote, “Pog is depressed that the battery is only rated for 8kWh, whereas the Leaf’s battery is good for 30kWh.”

    Some of the prototypes only had one channel filled with cells. The production models will be 16.1kWh. The battery scales pretty well so there’s no need for the full battery except in production. Some of the prototypes only had one door and no cup holder etc. The production models will have two doors, a cup holder and a sun-visor. It’s all good, not depressing at all.

  61. Grece says:

    Pog is depressed that the battery is only rated for 8kWh, whereas the Leaf’s battery is good for 30kWh.

    Pog isn’t serious about electric vehicles, or he would go out and buy a Nissan stat!

  62. Kurkosdr says:

    Pog, since you are about to drive this thing during cold days (Canada, eh?) have you factored in how much wattage per hour the heater will pull and how it will affect the price per km?

    Have you consider how the purchase price factors into the price per km, assuming a 10-year service life?

    Of course not. Like most EV fans, you only consider on the manufacturer-provided numbers.

    Unambiguous, eh?

  63. Kurkosdr says:

    Us “luddites” aren’t keen on spending upwards of $10.000 to buy a tricycle that doesn’t have an airbag and doesn’t even have crash-rating info available. We prefer our existing ICE even if it needs gas.

    And no, we aren’t going to get into 6 years of debt to buy an electric car either.

    Let someone else bleed on the bleeding edge.

    I like numbers. They can be so unambiguous.

    Consider the ElectraMeccanica Solo EV. The nominal range is 160km.

    Range is approximate and depends on road conditions, road incline, driving style and whether the heating is on while driving or not.

    Unambiguous, eh?

  64. Grece says:

    The cells of the battery are a standard part one can buy on the market.

    Which market Robert? Yes you can buy a few 18650s, but you cannot splice in new cells to the existing array.

    So’s the motor. It’s like a computer. If the CPU dies, swap in a new part.

    Seriously Robert, you are not about to drop $5k on a motor and new controller, let alone make the effort in installing it yourself.

    Maintenance for Solo is a tiny subset of service for an ICEd car: tire wear and inflation, wiper-washer fluid check, and an annual brake inspection.

    LOL, thats not maintenance you block head! Thats normal stuff people do everyday. No you’ll bitch about having to do all that. That is, IF you ever receive the vehicle in the next decade.

    No lubrication or coolant schedule.

    The motor you linked to has oil-cooling, as do most other EV’s. So don;t just set here and tell us that EV’s do not require cooling.

    Some people recommend annual battery testing.

    Not for electric cars they don’t.

    Eventually, wheel bearings need service. All of that I could do or find someone to do it rather easily.

    Wait you just said you need no lubrication is scheduled, which is it?

    Using standard parts almost everywhere makes dependence on EMV weak.

    Tell me, where can you buy a comparable motor in Winnipeg Robert? I am willing to wager that the tires cannot even be sourced locally.

  65. Grece wrote, “You cannot compare fork-lifts to EVs. There motors and batteries are entirely different.”

    The motor used in Solo EV is also used in forklifts. It’s a motor. It spins. You can get whatever RPM/torque ratio you want from a transmission.

    Here’s the data for the controller. It’s very flexible and can be used in forklifts. Here’s the motor.

  66. Grece wrote, “Tell us, how would you service the Solo? No spare tire, you cannot service the electric motor or even the batteries, and if EM goes out of business whats next?”

    The cells of the battery are a standard part one can buy on the market. So’s the motor. It’s like a computer. If the CPU dies, swap in a new part. Having a low parts-count makes Solo very easy to service except for the custom body. I don’t intend to crush that or poke holes in it in regular service.

    Maintenance for Solo is a tiny subset of service for an ICEd car: tire wear and inflation, wiper-washer fluid check, and an annual brake inspection. No lubrication or coolant schedule. Some people recommend annual battery testing. Eventually, wheel bearings need service. All of that I could do or find someone to do it rather easily. Using standard parts almost everywhere makes dependence on EMV weak.

  67. Ivan says:

    It scary when you read a electric forklift spec sheet and notice max drive train speed is 200km/h+.

    I’m guessing you’ve never driven a forklift in your life, Petey.

    Custom replacement battery packs have to be ordered for electric forklifts a lot.

    And that proves it. Stick to what you know.

  68. Grece says:

    Petey, everything you just wrote is a fabrication. You cannot compare fork-lifts to EVs. There motors and batteries are entirely different.

  69. oiaohm says:

    No spare tire, you cannot service the electric motor or even the batteries, and if EM goes out of business whats next? You’ll have no way for repairs or warranty work to be performed.
    But the Solo electric motor is a standard motor used in stacks of things including forklifts. It scary when you read a electric forklift spec sheet and notice max drive train speed is 200km/h+. Custom replacement battery packs have to be ordered for electric forklifts a lot. Key thing is box shape to battery pack not some strange shape. Stranger the shape of the battery pack the more expensive it is to have made on demand. So yes Solo has the cheapest shape of battery pack to have custom made if you need to have them made. Depending where you are that can in fact save on once off shipping.

    Grece tires could be a problem until you work out that the Solo is using standard scooter and golf cart tire sizes and rims and those sizes and rims are used on some forklifts.

    So if you think of a solo as a wacky shaped electric fork lift its not hard to find places to service it with people qualified to perform the required work. What is more interesting is the volume of parts that make up the Solo that have to be order by those doing electric forklift maintenance. By the way you find some places servicing forklifts also do golf carts and scooters due to parts overlap.

    Scheduled vehicular maintenance is a requirement; are you really that lazy?
    So service personal for this should be fairly much everywhere.

    Grece one of the big advantages of anything built using generic drive train parts is tons of people qualified to service them who know how to service those systems all over the place.

  70. oiaohm says:

    Using the same car for ICEd or EV may be efficient for the maker but it can’t deliver an optimal vehicle to the consumer.
    Robert Pogson when doing hybrid as it starts coming design for batteries in the right places. Maximum with ICE starts you needing regeneration breaking.

    So Hybrid and EV should have can have very the same layout of electrical parts. The best performing Hybrid are either front ICE, Electric rear or all around Electric with ICE for power generation. Of course getting people use to the idea of boot in front in a EV could be a problem.

  71. Grece says:

    Consider the ElectraMeccanica Solo EV.

    Lets be honest Robert, no one is considering it. There is no huge demand, no matter how much you yearn for it. Also, would you like to discuss this 8kWh batter dilemma?

    As you stated, “How can I love something that is unknown in the market?” I and others here have been asking you the VERY SAME QUESTION FOR MONTHS!

    When did you arrive at this decision point?

  72. Grece says:

    Then, we could count oil-changes, servicing the damned ICE, and changing the damned battery every five years. It’s no contest. Give up, luddites.

    Well Robert, which would you prefer? A vehicle you can service, or an EV that you cannot? Tell us, how would you service the Solo? No spare tire, you cannot service the electric motor or even the batteries, and if EM goes out of business whats next? You’ll have no way for repairs or warranty work to be performed.

    Scheduled vehicular maintenance is a requirement; are you really that lazy?

  73. Using the same car for ICEd or EV may be efficient for the maker but it can’t deliver an optimal vehicle to the consumer. The weight-distribution will be different unless you fill the engine-compartment with battery. That doesn’t work very well for heating/cooling of the battery and an engine is lumpy whereas a battery likes a two-dimensional array. Most small cars have front wheel drive but in the case of Solo, rear wheel drive is optimal. It might be cute or familiar to interchange the locomotion between ICE and EV but it’s unnecessarily complex and expensive to do that. Notice that Tesla and EMV don’t produce a car that looks/feels like an ICEd vehicle simply because of the weight/volume of the battery. They do what’s optimal. The great handling of the Solo is due to a very low centre of mass and three wheels instead of four. The Elio is about the only car that’s ICEd that resembles Solo and it’s just a pain to share a small space with a hot stinking engine and a tank full of napalm. EVs are much better for people.

    The thing that really turns me off about the Leaf is that when you lift the hood you see what looks like an ICE. That’s because Nissan made a Leaf exactly the way they make ICEd cars, with a bulky transmission and all kinds of stuff that’s not really necessary.

    See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHB5oNQLHpQ

    Isn’t that silly for an EV?

  74. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy why are you crossing brands and chassis??
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric

    Yes a Ford Focus is another where you can have exactly the same car chassis fuel, electric and hybrid. There is only 8000USD/7000EUR difference between the diesel and electric Ford Focus and that is without any rebates.

    The Ford book maintenance on the electric vs fuel 1/4 of the fuel for the electric. So half the price difference is covered in maintenance difference when you look at ford.

    http://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/20170213/ford-quietly-updated-the-focus-electric-for-2017-with-a-bigger-battery-and-dc-fast-charging/

    Deaf Spy also what in heck is going on in the EU. There is only 1000 USD difference between the electric Ford Focus electric and the Nissan Leaf where there are not major import taxes. This is one of the problems of crossing brands and comparing to something that did not in fact come from the same factory is the outside forces on costs. These outside forces can have doubled to quad the cost difference.

    Also every year the cost difference between ICE and Electric is getting smaller. 2014 it was 10000 USD difference 2017 its 8000USD difference. These are not the 15000USD/13000EUR figure you are using Deaf Sp that I suspect is caused by your mistake of crossing brands so comparing items that come from different factories with different regulations and costs.

  75. Well, I’m not buying a Nissan and Ford won’t sell me a diesel, so these numbers are irrelevant. There are reasons I want a Solo EV. It’s much less expensive than the Nissan and way less expensive than an ICEd Ford. I don’t want periodic oil-changes. I don’t want thousands of moving parts under my hood. I don’t want the stench of the exhaust. I’m even going to use solar power to charge my Solo. Include that in the calculations and it’s about five years to break even. BTW, the gas-guzzling Ford Focus starts at $23000 here so it’s no contest even on purchase-price. Solo is a winner. PS Ford wants to charge me $1K extra for RED rather than black. Idiots.

  76. Deaf Spy says:

    Sorry, I made a mistake with counting the zeros.

    In average, one will need to drive 370 000 kms to break even.
    This is close to the lifetime of a car.

    In other words, you pay today, never to save.

    Numbers are really great.

  77. Deaf Spy says:

    Oh, I also love numbers, Robert.

    Here is some numbers for you. In EU, one can buy a brand new, nicely equipped Ford Focus 1.5TDCI (diesel) for 17K EUR, and a Nissan Leaf for 30K EUR (30KWh battery, all discounts applied). The two cars are similar in size and features, so let’s start from here.

    – Ford: 17K EUR.
    – Nissan: 30K EUR.

    If you go for the Ford, you save yourself 13K EUR upfront. Now, considering a Nissan Leaf battery is about 5,5 K EUR in EU, let’s say it lasts 10 years. The maintenance of the Ford is about 400 EUR / year. For 10 years, this is 4000 vs. 5500. You will still need extra maintenance on the Nissan, but let’s ignore it.

    Now, fuel consumption. The nominal efficiency of Ford Focus 1,5TDCI is 3.7 l / 100 km, lets round up this to 4. This is about 6 EUR / 100 km (higher than average). In your calculation, the costs for Nissan would be about 2,5 EUR / 100 km (low average, keep in mind, in Germany it is double)

    Now, the results.
    1. In average, one will need to drive 3,7 million kms to break even. Impossible.
    2. In Germany, one will never break even, as he is losing to start with due to the high prices of electricity there.

    Numbers are great, I totally agree with you.

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