Cost of PV Power

“Of all renewable energy technologies, utility-scale (larger
than 1 MW capacity) solar PV has experienced the most rapid
decline in the levelised cost of electricity (LCOE), driven by
reductions in module prices and balance of systems costs .
Between 2010 and 2016, the global weighted average total
installed cost of commissioned utility-scale solar PV projects
fell by 65%, with the LCOE falling by 67% over the period.
Projects commissioned in 2016 had an average LCOE of
around USD 0.12 per kWh, and a range of USD 0.05 per kWh
to USD 0.35 per kWh. Costs vary by region, with the 2016
weighted average LCOE of utility-scale solar PV at USD 0.09
per kWh in China and India (down 68% from 2010), USD 0.14
per kWh in OECD countries (down 61% from 2010) and
USD 0.17 per kWh elsewhere (down 57% from 2011). (p See
Table 2.) LCOE ranges have narrowed significantly across all
regional groupings, and there is evidence of acceleration in
the convergence of solar PV installed costs towards the most
competitive levels.”
 
See RENEWABLES 2017 GLOBAL STATUS REPORT
The RENEWABLES 2017 GLOBAL STATUS REPORT shows the remarkable declines in cost of photovoltaic power lately. In many places PV is definitely feasible. In my back yard it’s definitely feasible as I don’t charge myself a salary, I have a stock of scrap steel I bought for pennies a pound and I can dig holes and pour concrete myself to cut the capital cost way down. I don’t even need to borrow money for the project. My pension will pay for batteries, PV panels and wiring. I even have parts for the charge-controller and inverter.

I’ve been planning this project for a while and one of the engineering problems is that batteries don’t work so well in the cold. I’ve figured out a neat solution to that. I’ll build an underground battery-vault. Then, in summer, the battery will be cooled by Mother Earth and in the winter the battery will be warmed by Mother Earth. Gophers figured that out millions of years ago. It took me a while. I may need a sump pump, but just a small one, and the battery can run it. I’ll need to dig and pour concrete to mount the solar panels anyway so the technology and material will be available.

My solar PV project will power my Solo EV and run tools, lights and pumps in my yard. The biggest cost won’t be the solar panels but the cells (NiFe) of the battery and their freight. The battery will make sure power is available any time and will last indefinitely.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.

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35 Responses to Cost of PV Power

  1. Grece wrote, “when are you going to plant trees outside your own property Robert?”

    I have relatives with property. I could plant there. One guy has a large tree that’s leaning. It needs to come down and be replaced by a shade-tolerant tree. I’ve offered lilac and Saskatoon but he’s declined because he thinks it will be too much work to take down the tree. I’ve even offered to do the cutting… He’s also planning to move soon and wants to leave the decision to the new owner.

    I’ve also given potted trees surplus to my needs as birthday presents and just presents. I gave two apricots to my banker who helped me set up my investments and two apricots to my GP. I have quite a few trees in pots still that I may donate in a few years. Some, like pines, grow very slowly when young so they could stay in their pots for two years longer.

  2. oiaohm says:

    Grece
    Computer models of the climate, do not take the indirect effects of solar activity into account when calculating the change in global climate.
    This is bull crap. If they don’t they are poor quality models.

    https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Oceans-and-climate/Climate-change-information
    If only naturally occurring factors, such as variations in the earth’s orbit, solar fluctuations and volcanic eruptions are included, climate model simulations of global temperature cannot match the observations. Add the effect of increases in greenhouse gases to natural factors and the simulated warming agrees with observations.
    From the transcript. Yes the Csiro has a model taking all that into account.

    Since weather models can never predict the weather accurately, how is that weather modeling somehow allegedly predicts future climates?
    The scary part is how much precision the Csiro models have. Like predicting X solar + X co2 then predicting the average monthly temperatures for an area plus or – 3 percent.

    How is it Robert, that NASA informs us that Sun cannot be responsible for global warming. But in the same breath, tells us that the Sun affects weather in general.

    Because you are missing why Csiro started modeling in the first place.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_evaporation

    Australia is a dry place lack of rain does turn into a big problem. Lot of a fuel burning in ICE is not clean so causes global dimming. So less sun is reaching the surface of the earth yet our temperatures are still warmer. The recored sun by Pan tests says we should be going into a ice age. Global dimming reflects sun power back into space. Nasa can see this in photos of the earth taken from space by same methods over time.

    Issue here is we have two effects global warming and global dimming. Global dimming means the sun is not the cause because the earth has basically sunglasses due to our actions so should be colder. River Thames in england should be freezing we have less of the sun power getting to the surface than when last time the River Thames was frozen over. The pan data rules out the Sun.

    Remember us humans have a CO2 limit we can tolerate. So even if we don’t have global warming the fact that average CO2 numbers are increase this should worry us.

    Global dimming reduces the ability of plants to process the CO2 we produce.

    So its not just CO2 the issue is also fine particle emissions from cars and trucks and industry.

  3. Grece says:

    YACK…QAUCK. Since you love the environment so much, when are you going to plant trees outside your own property Robert?

    Since you are retired, you could be planting trees once a week. Hybrid poplars, maples and willows to boot. Heck, I will send you free trees if you like.

  4. Grece wrote, “how is it that 5% can override and the remaining 95%?”

    You need to plant a Hell of a lot more trees to absorb the increase. That’s not happening. People still “clear” the land. See https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11638-climate-myths-human-co2-emissions-are-too-tiny-to-matter/

    Really, the huge rainforests that absorbed CO2 back in the days when fossil fuels were being created are mostly gone and you can’t dump that much CO2 back into the atmosphere in a century or three and have the level of CO2 not rise a lot. To go the other way by analogy, before petroleum was popular folks could live on ~$20 per annum or next to nothing. Why not just cut everyone’s pay and save a bundle so we could grow the economy? It would all fall down, that’s why and Grece is asking us to cause Nature to fall down around our ears for the sake of ICEd vehicles and Big Oil. It’s just silly.

  5. Grece says:

    So, Grece can ignore science and reason while the rest of us make the world a better place in spite of his wishes to turn Earth into a cinder.

    Its not ignoring science. Tell me, how is it that 5% can override and the remaining 95%?

    Actually the ONLY people “ignoring science” are those that say whatever their funding wants them to say. If you were paid every quarter, to travel the globe and to write about pollution. I am almost certain Robert Pogson would find pollution everywhere he went. The same thing can be said of alleged climate science these days.

    LOL… turning earth into a cinder? Thats a funny Robert. Your 5% emissions of CO2 are going to dry-up the entire worlds oceans that encompasses approximately 75% of the globe.

    5% vs. 75% and 95% LMAO.. your ignorance in math is hilarious Robert.

  6. Grece wrote, “Human activity counts for only 5% of carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere each year, the sun accounts for ALL the energy striking the Earth and driving its dynamic and enormously complex ocean currents and atmosphere.”

    Well, according to the American Chemical Society, the increase in CO2 is largely due to combustion of fossil fuels. The other natural sources naturally are balanced by natural sinks which keep Nature in balance. Humans are putting their dirty thumbs on the scale.

    “The combustion of fossil fuels produces CO2 with a different carbon-isotope signature than the CO2 present in the atmosphere before the Industrial Revolution. The CO2 from combustion has a lower 13CO2/12CO2 ratio. The 13CO2/12CO2 ratio of atmospheric CO2 has been dropping steadily as the concentration of CO2 has increased over the past half century. This change is strong evidence that human activity, the burning of fossil fuel, is the major cause of the increase in atmospheric CO2. Combustion requires and uses up oxygen from the atmosphere and precise measurements of the O2/N2 ratio in the atmosphere show that the fraction of oxygen is decreasing (measured in ppm relative to a standard sample).”

    So, Grece can ignore science and reason while the rest of us make the world a better place in spite of his wishes to turn Earth into a cinder.

  7. Grece says:

    How is it Robert, that NASA informs us that Sun cannot be responsible for global warming. But in the same breath, tells us that the Sun affects weather in general.

  8. Grece says:

    Computer models of the climate, do not take the indirect effects of solar activity into account when calculating the change in global climate. Human activity counts for only 5% of carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere each year, the sun accounts for ALL the energy striking the Earth and driving its dynamic and enormously complex ocean currents and atmosphere.

    Why isn’t the sun ever taken into account Robert?

  9. Grece says:

    Since weather models can never predict the weather accurately, how is that weather modeling somehow allegedly predicts future climates?

  10. Grece says:

    Since we are at solar minimum Robert. Would you like to discuss the Maunder Minimum and the Little Ice Age?

  11. Grece says:

    I ask you Robert, which has more control over the climate. Our sun or CO2 emissions?

  12. Deaf Spy wrote, “you, Robert, put an article in Wikipedia against paper written by three PhDs and signed by a dozen more, from various academic institutions”.

    Those PhDs wrote that they did not like the historical data but loved the modern satellite data. The satellite data shows continued warming… The greater accuracy and uniformity of the satellite data is sufficient reason to argue in favour of renewable energy. So are the obvious savings, efficiencies and lower levels of pollution. These guys have PhDs too.

  13. Deaf Spy says:

    So, instead of attacking the message, Grece attacks the messenger. That’s stupid, pointless, and a waste of time.

    I don’t want to be anyone’s defender here, but you, Robert, put an article in Wikipedia against paper written by three PhDs and signed by a dozen more, from various academic institutions. That is not good.

  14. Deaf Spy wrote, “had you a real academic stance, you would have known that quoting Wikipedia is not allowed in academic circles. You may use Wikipedia for a reference to find the actual source, but you should quote the latter.”

    So, instead of attacking the message, Grece attacks the messenger. That’s stupid, pointless, and a waste of time.

  15. Deaf Spy says:

    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_temperature_record#Warmest_years

    Robert, had you a real academic stance, you would have known that quoting Wikipedia is not allowed in academic circles. You may use Wikipedia for a reference to find the actual source, but you should quote the latter.

    Anyway, right now it is 15 degrees where I live, and this is close to the record low temperature for this day of the year, and way below the normal 30-33. Global warming, ri-i-ight.

  16. oiaohm says:

    Grece really it pays to look at how the Australian data is done.

    https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/State-of-the-Climate-2016/Report-at-a-glance

    Yes heat maps of country.
    Please note in this report.
    >>Sea-level rise and ocean acidification around Australia are projected to continue.<<

    Please note the word projected to continue. This is not just a forecast this is forecast + field tests. So tests documenting Sea-level rise and acidification are performed in the same way places record temperature humidity and rainfall.

    The projected effects of global warming form 30 years ago in the old Csiro report are here now. We hope the report does not go exactly how it was written to go. CSIRO makes long term forecasts then does tests to check of those forecast method are right.

  17. oiaohm says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Enso-global-temp-anomalies.png

    Of course those who are funded by oil.
    Former Chief Economist of Amoco Corp. and Exxon Venezuela
    Advisory Board of the Gas Technology Institute and Energy Intelligence Group

    Second page are going to bend the numbers.

    The problem here the raw data is telling us a clear story.
    http://euanmearns.com/hadcrut4-strikes-out/
    But after apply a stack of modifications to the raw data it turns to mud. All the sats that are passing over the same surface area are reporting rising surface temperatures on average.

    A lot of the corrections burring the numbers are questionable themselves.

    http://oi62.tinypic.com/oa4vt1.jpg
    Once you use the raw you see that the global warming up trend is still there and you see in some wacky cases like sine wave that happens to match earth yearly orbit variation due to the movement of the earths poles.

    To give practical experiment why the average climatic data does not work. Take 2 infrared thermometer a block steel and a block marble. Point a 1 infrared thermometer at the steel and the other and the block marble. Take the two values and attempt to guess what the air temperature is. And this is exactly what you attempt do when you average to different collections of climatic data. Now the amount of temperature change can kind of be guessed if you just use the marble with marble records and the steel records with steal records. So basically stick the raw data don’t combined them and look at the trends the raw data is saying when it compared with the same type of collection.

    Yes the using marble and steel is quite different material but do that exaggerates the issue making it easy to see. Of course to make it harder the person who is asked to average the data is not to get any information about how big/small the blocks of steel/marble was.

    Grece like I don’t dispute the GAST sets are questionable. This is one of the problems in the Anti-climate change camp. Yes they say some of the presume are based on bad maths and method that is true. But then they don’t back it up with raw data proven the claimed stuff is not happening because the raw data processed with correct method of only comparing apples with apples supports climatic change. Please note merging data between two different locations also end up with apple vs orange in compare.

    So is it possible to make a proper global average of what is going on. The answer is no. The CSIRO publication on climate change 30 years ago details method required to get sane results including forbidding averaging between different global locations.

  18. Grece says:

    LOL…your evidence is a Wikipedia entry Robert?

    Using Wikipedia as a source of knowledge would earn you a failure. Even the creator, Jimmy Wales, ells people not to use Wikipedia

    Lets see, which has more weight. A delusional old fart From Canada or group of Ph’Ds?

    I also have one piece of advice for anyone insane enough to cite Wikipedia: have patience. Wait until you have secured academic tenure, or, say, an untouchable bench seat in the circuit courts. Then you can be as insane as you like, and quote Wikipedia to your heart’s content. And no one will be able to do a damn thing about it.

  19. Grece wrote, “Who am I to argue with a nimby and a delusional miser from Canada.”

    No one, apparently. Grece’s love of arguments against removing cyclical variations (necessary to observe what we want, the slow variation of the average temperature with time) completely ignores that “16 of the 17 warmest years have occurred since 2000”. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_temperature_record#Warmest_years

    Extremes have nothing to do with cyclical variation.

  20. Grece says:

    Who am I to argue with a nimby and a delusional miser from Canada.

    Perhaps a few Ph’d’s from MIT would be though.

    The conclusive findings of this research are that the three GAST data
    sets are not a valid representation of reality. In fact, the magnitude of
    their historical data adjustments, that removed their cyclical
    temperature patterns, are totally inconsistent with published and
    credible U.S. and other temperature data. Thus, it is impossible to
    conclude from the three published GAST data sets that recent years
    have been the warmest ever –despite current claims of record setting
    warming.

    https://thsresearch.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/ef-gast-data-research-report-062717.pdf

  21. Grece wrote, “Digging a hole with a shovel and dumping batteries in it is not a workable plan. At the worst you would electrify the surrounding grounds and possibly yourself.”

    I’ve been working with electricity since 1961. I know the ropes. I’ve had formal training. I’ve worked with high voltages and high current too. A solar PV setup is different but not difficult for me. Also, I know not to dig a hole and put an expensive battery in it. I would dig a hole, provide drainage, put in reinforced concrete walls and a steel cover. This thing will be a bunker requiring AP rounds to breach. I will cover the surface of the concrete with a waterproof membrane for added certainty. I can even cast the base heavy enough to avoid flotation in bad times. It’s all good.

    The UofM cyclotron area was built on a floor of concrete 4 feet thick so that it would not float and a hefty sump pump gave added protection in a flood plane. I can do the same on a much smaller scale for a few $hundred.

  22. oiaohm says:

    Grece
    https://insideclimatenews.org/news/31082015/yes-warming-arctic-means-cold-winters-elsewhere-Boston-US-Asia
    Really its looking at times like the farmers almanac that show climate change. The CSIRO normally does call the change directly global warming most because there are too many idiots who do what Grece did thinking that global warming has to equal warmer winters. Not being aware that global warming in lot of places will equal colder winters due to altered heat flow on the surface of earth. So hotter summers and colder winters. Yes the farmers almanac Grece just quoted predicted warmer summers than history. You are not seeing the normal alignment of cool summer and cold winter instead seeing hot summer and cold winter as what global warming models forecast.

    http://www.beutilityfree.com/index.php/products/nickel-iron-batteries/nickel-iron-faq-s

    Grece Nickel iron batteries hate rapid temperature change. They work happy at -20C

    Nickel Iron batteries even with their crap performance can out perform in some case other batteries due to the temperature ranges they tolerate. 25C is recommended for material stability but you can get Nickel Iron batteries rated for colder like for Antarctica where some are made with a -40C tolerance and will functional identically at -40C as at 25C. Basically Nickel Iron batteries you are worried about quality of build. Nickel Iron battery being taken out of it rated temperature range shortens life of battery but does not alter functionality of battery.

    So when it cold enough to effect Nickel Iron battery performance you will be serous-ally worried about survival.

    I would say to Robert Pogson check the material stability of the Nickel Iron batteries you are looking at. Some will not tolerate 0C due to what the casing of the battery is made out of. NiFe is materials materials materials.

    A lot of batteries are not suitable to store in ICE(yes I mean frozen water) the right grade of NiFe is perfectly fine set in ice. I know this for a few reasons using electric fork lifts in fruit cold rooms a lot would have NiFe batteries because they liked freezer conditions as long as they were the right rating. So where robert lives NiFe could be the correct choice due to how bad other battery types perform across the required operational temperature range and how stable NiFe performance is.

  23. Grece says:

    What global warming Robert? The City of Winnipeg reports an average frost depth of 7 feet and the expectation is that frost typically leaves the ground sometime in June.

    Also, 2014 you had a VERY cold winter. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/it-s-official-winnipeg-s-winter-the-coldest-since-1898-1.2598530

    The farmers almanac is predicting a colder winter for 2017-2018 Robert, they are have been around for a hundred plus years.

    My advice to you is to hire a professional civil engineer Robert that knows the dirt on soils. Digging a hole with a shovel and dumping batteries in it is not a workable plan. At the worst you would electrify the surrounding grounds and possibly yourself.

  24. Grece wrote, “How do you plan on performing annual electrolyte inspection and capacity testing??

    You are NOT about to bury an entire array of cells in the ground, as for one the frost line is 6-8 feet deep. Two, you are talking about 3-5000 pounds in weight and a size that is equivalent to a large doghouse. You will need an excavator.”

    No I won’t. I can easily dig such a hole with a shovel in a day. The frost line doesn’t reach six feet here lately. Global warming, remember? At 0C NiFe’s perform well enough for my purposes and with a little added heat there’s no problem at all. Don’t forget, Earth is a source of heat so the ground even if it freezes is not much below 0C. My well, for instance, never freezes. Measurements from Manitoba show soil never goes below -5C in my neighbourhood at 5cm depth (See page 56) and that’s just for a month or so, not the whole winter.

  25. oiaohm wrote, “We mostly don’t use NiFe because they are horrible. 20-30 percent lost per month in self discharge that is on top of at best only 65-80% return on what was put into them. “

    Very true, however, for solar storage they are perfect because Sun keeps showing up every now and then and I will keep driving Solo. Because energy from Sun is $free, greater inefficiency at that level is not a problem. I could increase battery-capacity to compensate or just not worry about it. I will rarely drive ~100 miles to get home. The nearest distant charging stations for me are Carberry, 199km/123km, which would be tight but I could stop for some charge in Winnipeg and make it, Carmen, 118km well within range, and Powerview, 98km also well within range. So, it would be very unlikely that I should arrive home needing a full charge and I probably could afford to take a break from driving if I had just completed such long trips anyway so I could wait for a couple of cycles of the battery to do the deed.

    The only issues I have with NiFes out in the yard are the affects of low temperatures affecting capacity and the capital cost including shipping. They are worth it and I can deal with the environment by digging a little or installing some heating. It’s all good. I won’t have to worry about anything in my declining years except spots on the apples. The NiFes won’t let me down.

  26. oiaohm says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

    Actually it’s twice that number Robert, but ahem, it all depends on the depth of discharge.
    Grece really get some facts. One of the reason why you choose NiFe batteries is does not matter about depth of discharge. Part discharged and taken completely flat make absolutely no difference to a NiFe life span.

    30-50 years of repeated charging and discharging before NiFe give up the ghost. Cause of NiFe battery failure is not cycles. Its material fatigue. So two identical NiFe batteries 1 never used and one charged and discharged every hour will basically fail on the same day if stored in the same place.

    We mostly don’t use NiFe because they are horrible. 20-30 percent lost per month in self discharge that is on top of at best only 65-80% return on what was put into them.

    Grece here is a stupid fact is most batteries would fail lot sooner if they faced the same cycle test as NiFe. The cycle test with NiFe that gives 5000 cycle number is changed with over changing, over discharging and short circuiting while sitting on a shake table . So the most abusive system possible. So failure at 5000 charges is suspected not to to be because of cycling.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_commercial_battery_types

    For cycles you would be looking at Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide to take on NiFe but it does not have the same level of durability. There is work at moment to get properly liquid cell that would get even more durability.

  27. Grece says:

    You’re ignoring the fact that NiFe batteries last many decades of daily cycling. That’s why I prefer their technology. It’s rough to say they can last 5000 cycles.

    Actually it’s twice that number Robert, but ahem, it all depends on the depth of discharge.

    Tell me, did you calculate your depth of discharge, or are you just winging it here? What about the voltage, and capacity, have you even thought about those numbers yet? How do you plan on performing annual electrolyte inspection and capacity testing??

    You are NOT about to bury an entire array of cells in the ground, as for one the frost line is 6-8 feet deep. Two, you are talking about 3-5000 pounds in weight and a size that is equivalent to a large doghouse. You will need an excavator.

  28. Grece wrote, “Custom acoustic tile? No such thing, lol.”

    Yes, there is. TLW neglected to design for the ceiling so half the tiles have an irregular shape… Life with TLW is interesting.

    Grece, still not understanding heat, temperature or CONDUCTION, wrote, “there is no heated airflow or openings in the battery compartment is there?”

    You don’t need airflow! Heat can be transferred by convection, conduction, and radiation in addition to transport. Some soldering irons depend on conduction rather than transport to move heat to the work. Same with some stove-tops and electric blankets. Transistors and CPU chips usually rely on conduction to get heat to heatsinks where transport or convection might carry on.

    A human being produces around 100W of heat while living. Solo has also about 800W of electric heat available. Who knows? They could also transfer some heat from the motor if they tried hard. Further, the cockpit can be preheated during charging which could help the battery stay warm for short trips. It’s all good. The folks in Vancouver and Calgary did drive Sparrows and Solos in their mild winter with no serious problems.

  29. DrLoser in ignorance wrote, “You’re ignoring the fact that you need it to cycle on virtually a daily basis,”

    You’re ignoring the fact that NiFe batteries last many decades of daily cycling. That’s why I prefer their technology. It’s rough to say they can last 5000 cycles. They are still usable if the reduced capacity doesn’t matter indefinitely. For charging my car or giving some remote/backup power that’s the case. I will specify a little extra capacity to take care of self-discharge, low temperature and deterioration. This setup will likely outlast me.

  30. DrLoser says:

    There’s nothing wrong with NiFe technology except that it’s heavy. Moving it around the world is a small price to pay for decades of reliable performance.

    What a pathetic “apologia pro fantasia sua.”

    You’re buying what is essentially stone-age technology, just because Ali Baba has it on sale. You’re ignoring the fact that you need it to cycle on virtually a daily basis, if you expect it to provide charge for this tricycle … thing … that you haven’t even put any money down on, but leave that to one side.

    Only a rabid cretin or a senile old fool would go for this nonsense, Bobbie.

    Which one are you?

  31. Grece says:

    Quit obfuscating Robert, there is no heated airflow or openings in the battery compartment is there? Just admit you have no clue.

    Why do you have painted dry-wall on your rim-joist?

    Custom acoustic tile? No such thing, lol. At least this tells me that you have a dead space that you COULD run wires and hide.

    Since when so you concern yourself with code and insurances? You stated in the past, you would just payoff a relative to get around any safety regulations.

  32. Grece, not understanding flow of thermal energy by conduction, wrote, “The battery compartment cannot be exposed to the passenger compartment nor to the outside for obvious reasons.”

    Please, figure out what this means for a battery compartment separated from the outdoors by a wall and the indoors by another wall. Use Ohm’s law as an analogue. The voltage part way down a chain of resistors is between the voltages of the two ends. It’s not rocket science.

    “The formula for rate of heat flow is ∆Q/∆t = -K×A×∆T/x, where ∆Q/∆t is the rate of heat flow; -K is the thermal conductivity factor; A is the surface area; ∆T is the change in temperature and x is the thickness of the material (∆T/x is called the temperature gradient and is always negative”

    Think! What temperature will a thermometer show halfway through the wall of a house with -30C outside and +20C inside? Do you not agree that it might be -5C more or less rather than -30C? If the thermal resistance to the inside and outside are equal the temperature will be the arithmetic mean of the inside and outside temperatures.

    Facts: Thermal energy does flow from high temperature regions to low temperature regions. That’s why we have heating bills. The rate of flow depends inversely on the thermal resistance. It doesn’t matter whether heat reaches a fluffy wad of FibreGlas or a battery. It keeps moving on seeking lower temperatures. The total temperature drop is the same as the sum of the temperature drops along the path from inside to outside.

    Grece foolishly wrote, “How hard is it to run wire through your rim joist Robert?”

    Don’t forget the pleasantly coloured stucco TLW paid to have installed and the pleasantly painted drywall on the interior and the custom-made acoustic tiling… The 11th commandment is “Don’t cross TLW!”. Further, if it comes into the house there are issues of Code and insurance. There’s no such problem with a picnic table in my back yard nor a charging station by my driveway. In Manitoba, electrical codes are about wiring in buildings supplied by Manitoba Hydro. No building, no sale to the public, no permit/inspection/CSA certification required. I will build this stuff to code but I don’t have to prove it to anyone. This saves me a lot of money and keeps me safe from TLW’s wrath. She has authorized me to do what I want with my garden as long as it’s not an eyesore from the deck/patio. A screen of arborvitae is taking care of that.

    I happen to like swallows. They do take breaks from the work of catching mosquitoes out of the air and they love an overhead wire. My garden is the most likely place for mosquitoes to hide so a triplex bundle crossing the garden overhead makes sense. Swallows are things of beauty so the cable will not be an eyesore. This will also dodge Manitoba Hydro’s and Shaw Cable’s buried services. It might not save much money as the digging, conduit and burial are offset by two stiff masts and some ladder-work. I can do it either way but I do like swallows and digging in clay is no fun at all. There will be digging for a foundation for the PV array and the battery-box but I find it much easier to descend into a hole I’m digging than reaching down into a trench. My weight helps with the first and hinders with the second. Another variation would be to build the battery-box on the surface and use heat-pipes to carry heat where I need it. I have all the material needed to make heat-pipes: copper pipe, steel plates, a vacuum pump, wicking and methanol.

  33. Grece says:

    Gee, some people are thick.

    Who you calling thick tubby?

    In Solo EV the battery will get some heat from the passenger compartment so the temperature of the battery will be between the outdoor temperature and the in-cabin temperature.

    Without schematic diagrams, I am calling BS on this. The battery compartment cannot be exposed to the passenger compartment nor to the outside for obvious reasons.

    The work of penetrating a finished basement versus building a small box in the back yard? No comparison.

    How hard is it to run wire through your rim joist Robert? All you need is an electric drill, a spade-bit or small hole-saw, with some matching putty and you’re done. I know how you hate doing work, but really?

    Also, it’s more efficient to have the battery close to the solar panels.

    How efficient is it to dig down 2-3 feet to bury said battery, then install a sump-pump and pray that it does not fail?

    I may even use an overhead line to bring power to the charging station instead of burial just to save labour. It’s all good.

    Wrong. TLW will not allow that.

  34. Grece wrote, “According to you, solar is free. Also, you have mentioned that batteries subjected to the cold is all good, as they heat up internally. Why the change in your story?

    Also, a sump pump, for a below grade battery box? Just wire the thing in your basement, no need to over-engineer it. You are just needlessly spinning your neurons with unnecessary cycles.

    NiFe batteries are like 100-years old and you will need a huge lot of them. Go with lithium at the very least.

    Gee, some people are thick. In Solo EV the battery will get some heat from the passenger compartment so the temperature of the battery will be between the outdoor temperature and the in-cabin temperature.

    The work of penetrating a finished basement versus building a small box in the back yard? No comparison. Also, it’s more efficient to have the battery close to the solar panels. I can also place the controls in the box. I may even use an overhead line to bring power to the charging station instead of burial just to save labour. It’s all good.

    There’s nothing wrong with NiFe technology except that it’s heavy. Moving it around the world is a small price to pay for decades of reliable performance. Lithium is feasible but its short life is a problem. I don’t want to outlive this project and have to repair it when I”m too far gone.

  35. Grece says:

    According to you, solar is free. Also, you have mentioned that batteries subjected to the cold is all good, as they heat up internally. Why the change in your story?

    Also, a sump pump, for a below grade battery box? Just wire the thing in your basement, no need to over-engineer it. You are just needlessly spinning your neurons with unnecessary cycles.

    NiFe batteries are like 100-years old and you will need a huge lot of them. Go with lithium at the very least.

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