Pigs Fly At M$

“Microsoft has committed publicly to use ARM chips in machines that will be running cloud services in its own datacenters before year-end.”
 
See Windows Server on ARM: It’s happening
Chuckle. For many months commentators here have been telling me ARM won’t make it on servers, just because… Well, consider this. M$ is going to run ARMed servers in its datacentres. Yes, it’s own operating system too. I guess ARM has made it when everyone accepts that ARM can serve too, except the peanut-gallery.

I wonder what they will say now… That it’s OK that ARM is now blessed by M$? That there’s still no software out there that people want to run on servers? That is costs too much? HAHAHAHA!!! That it uses too much power? HAHAHAHA!!! ROFL!

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

93 Responses to Pigs Fly At M$

  1. DrLoser wrote, “I see that MSFT has closed today at $64.87, which is quite an impressive increase on the $48.43 on June 27th 2016.”

    About that time, I took over active management of two investment accounts. My gain is much greater than that even after taking out an income and buying some really fine gadgets and groceries. Just spent more at Walmart and Amazon with the proceeds. Life is better when you avoid M$.

  2. oiaohm says:

    I haven’t actually tried this, Fifi. Have you? If you try hard enough, I’m sure that Windows 10 will let you shoot yourself in the foot this way.
    choose windows 10 to create local accounts. Then it allows you to create 1 account that is in the administrator group and no other accounts. The other option is choose account that is web provided that fails every time you don’t have good internet.

    Basically Windows 10 installer lets you shoot yourself in foot the same way Ubuntu installer does just with more menus to get lost.

    https://windows.gadgethacks.com/how-to/psa-you-can-run-windows-10-without-microsoft-account-0163711/

    Yep the account you create on Windows 10 Microsoft does not tell you its being made as part of the administrator group. So with Windows equal to sudo rights.

    It’s only Ubuntu, as far as I know, that doesn’t even bother to ask the installer whether or not they want the option.
    Windows 10 does not bother asking the user either if they want split administrator account to general user. Instead just goes administrator group.

    DrLoser windows 10 and 8.1 installers stop asking for the split. 8,7 and Vista it was optional and before it was option create extra users.

    DrLoser I would say you have not installed windows 8.1 or Windows 10 or if you did you were not paying attention to the accounts the installer created. Reality what Ubuntu is doing is no different to what windows 8.1 and 10 are doing. Thinking it a distribution targeting to migrate windows users doing the user create the same way kind makes sense.

    The worst part is administrator account class on ubuntu will not create without a password but you are perfectly fine to create password less accounts on Windows 8.1 and 10 in the administrator group. So when you are talking about defective there is a little more to what Ubuntu installer and pam system will and will not accept.

  3. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Windows still has the fault.”

    Cite?

  4. DrLoser says:

    You can still install Windows 10 with only 1 account being with one password to-do everything.

    I haven’t actually tried this, Fifi. Have you? If you try hard enough, I’m sure that Windows 10 will let you shoot yourself in the foot this way.

    But what I can say, with some authority, is that this is not the default option. Windows OSes since the year 2ooo try very hard to persuade the casual user to create a separate administrator. And, to their credit, so do Debian, CentOS, Fedora, and practically every other Linux distro I have tried to install.

    It’s only Ubuntu, as far as I know, that doesn’t even bother to ask the installer whether or not they want the option.

    All the other crap that you dumped on us is therefore just your standard Wall’O’Gibberish, liberally garnished with pointless and irrelevant cites.

    Logical argument is simply beyond you, isn’t it, Fifi?

  5. DrLoser says:

    And in other news, Robert, I see that MSFT has closed today at $64.87, which is quite an impressive increase on the $48.43 on June 27th 2016.

    I haven’t checked this out, but I suspect that MSFT has actually beaten your antediluvian predilection for gold over this period.

    What a shame you are so bigoted that you refuse to accept an investment opportunity when it stares you in the face.

  6. oiaohm says:

    https://www.hiroom2.com/2016/07/07/ubuntu-16-04-sudo-without-password/

    Robert Pogson 16.04 is like all the ubuntu you have used before. People apply sudo nopasswd to make 16.04 behave more like Windows vista and newer.

    The reality is DrLoser as normal is clueless.

  7. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser
    My point was that this horrid security hole was abandoned by Microsoft as far back as 1998.
    This is wrong. Windows still has the fault. You can use items like vnc to control the keyboard and mouse and user running as administrator switch privillage level without a password at all. XP still default created a pure administrator account with rights to-do almost everything. This is not what Ubuntu has created. Ubuntu has created an administrator account closer to a Windows Vista administrator account and newer.

    You can still install Windows 10 with only 1 account being with one password to-do everything.

    One thing I liked about Linux on the desktop is that practically every distro (I seem to recall that the French abortion differed) insisted, in proper Unix fashion, that root and users had different security details. Not so with Ubuntu, apparently.
    Most Linux distributions don’t support graphically login in as root any more due to the security issues of X11. It is still possible with Ubuntu LTS to remove the sudo settings and set root password even that this is limited functionality these days.
    http://askubuntu.com/questions/335987/remove-sudo-privileges-from-a-user-without-deleting-the-user

    Yes it just remove a group off the user and the user password no longer magically works.

    So this is like Windows 10 where you can go in and still give the administrator user a password and then delete the administrator group off all users.

    So DrLoser you point was incorrect the complete time. You should have been focusing on how Windows Vista administrator account and newer is better or worse than what Ubuntu has done. Because up until and include windows Xp is crap.

  8. DrLoser wrote, “The bog-standard Ubuntu 16.04 LTS desktop installation doesn’t even bother to ask you. It just uses the same password for root as it does for your first user.”

    That’s new, then. Any Ubuntu I’ve seen uses sudo.

    That can easily be changed, but why bother? Just use Debian GNU/Linux. With GNU/Linux, one can have whatever one wants, even passwordless local or remote login.

  9. DrLoser says:

    Can’t quite remember the name of the French abortion. “Man-Drool?” “Mimi-le-Drake?” “Eh Bien Gendarme, c’est vrai, je suis Artiste de Con, voila mon Driver sans Consequence?”
    Summat like that. All these dreary expensive little failures fatigue me.

  10. DrLoser says:

    Not exactly this is happening on the windows side as well.

    You genuinely have no idea whatsoever as to what constitutes logic, do you, Fifi?

    Proposition: This stuff is regressing in usability.
    Supporting argument: One thing I liked about Linux on the desktop is that practically every distro (I seem to recall that the French abortion differed) insisted, in proper Unix fashion, that root and users had different security details. Not so with Ubuntu, apparently.
    Contradicting argument: No, Dr Loser, I, Fifi, have tried the basic Ubuntu 16.04 LTS desktop install, and I can prove that you are wrong.

    Rather sadly, Fifi, you have not tried it, and you cannot prove it. You are an abject illogical moron.

    My point was that this horrid security hole was abandoned by Microsoft as far back as 1998.

    And Ubuntu is still doing it. As I say, Robert will find this grist to his Debian mill.

  11. oiaohm says:

    The bog-standard Ubuntu 16.04 LTS desktop installation doesn’t even bother to ask you. It just uses the same password for root as it does for your first user.
    DrLoser look again. Root user in ubuntu has no password set at all.

    You are using sudo privilege to swap to root. Fairly much the same as a Windows Administrator account. Everyone with administrator class account under Ubuntu can use their login password to swap to root by sudo.

    Windows administrator account also uses 1 password for everything. Until user does sudo all applications are running with genernal user privillages. Again like the modern Windows administrator account. Please note modern. Please note Windows run as administrator does not even bother from administrator account asking for a password. This was introduced in vista and Ubuntu was doing it that way before Vista was made.

    So mountain out of mole hill. So a feature Microsoft copied from Linux way after w98.

  12. oiaohm says:

    This stuff is actually regressing in usability.
    Not exactly this is happening on the windows side as well.

    Lot of low level defects disappeared in 2016 and more for 2017 with Linux Distributions.
    https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/915640/unix-graphics-announcements-and-news/multiple-glx-client-libraries-in-the-nvidia-linux-driver-installer-package/

    2017 will hopefully be the year that installing Nvidia and AMD closed source graphical stacks on one system will not result in library nightmare.

    https://www.linux.com/news/5-linux-desktop-environments-rise-2017 I also guess you did not go outside Ubuntu defaults. I would not say the Ubuntu has the best desktop designers.

  13. DrLoser says:

    Regarding Ubuntu 16.04 LTS and W98-ness, btw, Robert, I have to apologise. I missed out the main point. The main point can be summarised as follows:
    1) Any desktop OS these days has a root/admin/whatever account, and one or more user accounts.
    2) When installing a desktop OS, you expect to create a root/admin account, and at least one user account, complete with passwords.

    I guarantee you, Robert, you are going to enjoy the following finding:

    The bog-standard Ubuntu 16.04 LTS desktop installation doesn’t even bother to ask you. It just uses the same password for root as it does for your first user.

    Flabber me ghast.

  14. DrLoser says:

    Instruction transformation is very integer.

    I imagine it would be, Fifi.

    After all, one would find it somewhat awkward to count either clock cycles or instructions in, say, rational numbers.

    Let alone the sort of irrational numbers that clueless berks like you choose to use.

    (Note to Robert: I use irrational there as a mathematical pun. You, and I, and most of your readers, can understand that. I doubt that oiaohm can.)

  15. DrLoser says:

    On a semi-related issue concerning Porcine Aviation, Robert, I’ve been testing out various Linux distros against a low-cost, low-wattage, SDD-backed micro-server.

    As you know, I live to serve. And I know you would love for me to tell you that the micro-server in question is an ARM board. Regrettably, no, it isn’t. More news to follow.

    Here’s the interesting thing concerning Bacon-On-The-Wing, though. For reasons I can explain in tedious detail, should you require me to do so, the only viable distro was Ubuntu (specifically, 16.04 LTS). Putting myself in the place of a prospective newbie desktop Linux customer, I can honestly say that Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is a pretty decent option.

    And it still looks, and works, like a retarded version of Windows 98.

    Now, I can live with this, because I am a tolerant person, and as I say, I live to serve.

    But I’m not so sure about yer average Joe on the Street.

    This stuff is actually regressing in usability.

  16. oiaohm says:

    https://arxiv.org/pdf/1701.05996.pdf
    kurkosdr there are some quite interesting A57 benchmarks that are quite a bit slower than the newer A73. A57 is about that of a x86 chip. A73 is about 40% faster. 30% overhead equals %10 faster.

    There is a massive reduction in power usage. Instruction transformation is very integer. The reality kurkosdr you have not looked at any of the benchmarks.

  17. oiaohm says:

    Since an x86 chip does not expose its internal ISA, x86 is considered to be running native aka without emulation, and by definition has no emulation penalties when running x86 code because it is it’s native (aka no emulation) mode.

    Sorry that does not mean running without emulation. The existence the internal ISA means you have transformation from x86 to internal ISA this has overhead.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta
    Because otherwise even that transmeta processesors documented their internal instruction set would be classed as native x86. Yes they are called native x86 even that a Transmeta processors are documented what their internal ISA looks like. So internal ISA been exposed or secret has nothing to-do with if a chip is classed as native x86 or not. A cpu classed as native x86 does not mean it not using emulation internally.

    In plain English, an AMD K6 running x86 code has no emulation penalties, even if it runs a piece of code slower than some new ARM chip using x86 emulation. Because ARM’s native ISA is not x86 but K5’s native ISA is x86.

    Pentium and newer in Intel is micocode. K7 and newer in AMD is microcode.

    K6 and k5 both do less x86 per clock cycle than a K7 and newer. Same applies to Pentium vs 486 and older. Microcode engine allows optimising poorly optimised code to perform better.

    So going non native x86 in core for the x86 cpu has allowed them to go faster. So another group swapping in another cpu core time you should not presume this will result in slower.

    Basically ARM64 doing x86 it the same as another historically called native x86 chips with a documented internal ISA.
    https://www.dcddcc.com/docs/2014_paper_microcode.pdf
    Also some x86 chips internal ISA is reversed engineered.

    Ah, a phone tablet thing, still irrelevant to the Desktop (aka the place Pog dreams ARM will displace x86 from) and the relevant software ecosystems (aka Desktop Linux x86 software ecosystem, including steam games and all, and win32 and win64 software ecosystem)
    The chip model in usage is given in the video could you please explain what 32x PCI-E has to-do with a phone or tablet. Reason for that many PCI-e is a desktop/development motherboard. Wait of course you would not pay attention to the video and check out what the heck the chip is before saying the video has no point.

  18. kurkosdr says:

    How do you get without emulation penalties do you stupidly believe a x86 chip does not have emulation penalties????

    Since an x86 chip does not expose its internal ISA, x86 is considered to be running native aka without emulation, and by definition has no emulation penalties when running x86 code because it is it’s native (aka no emulation) mode.

    In plain English, an AMD K6 running x86 code has no emulation penalties, even if it runs a piece of code slower than some new ARM chip using x86 emulation. Because ARM’s native ISA is not x86 but K5’s native ISA is x86.

    So, we ‘ve established you suck at semantics, but let’s move on…

    Qualcomm chip has benchmarks that says

    Companies can have benchmarks which say gravity is higher on the Moon than on Earth if they want to, it’s called marketing. But let’s move on…

    at the same clock speed it doing more x86 instructions per clock cycle than atom chips so that is fairly much forget bothering about atom x86.

    What kind of instructions? NOP is a universal instructions, so if they are using that metric, I am sure ” it doing more x86 instructions per clock cycle than atom chips” and gives out a nice bogoMIPS number little hams can look at with marvel. Also, they can always hand-pick a couple of software pieces their emulator performs particularly well. Then they can also hide the fact they use a massive JIT cache and they have already run the software a thousand times to make sure it is runs from cache, which would also skewer the numbers.

    Unless you provide more info about the benchmarks used, type of software used and variety of software used, test-bed used and whether JIT cache was used and how much, you are pretty much blowing smoke, which means that your credibility… oh yeah, you don’t have any of that.

    That video is not the Micro Server. This is Qualcomm is not going to loss market share on tablets or phones and is also looking at making quad to 16 core arms for desktop instead of the 48 core for Micro Servers.

    Ah, a phone tablet thing, still irrelevant to the Desktop (aka the place Pog dreams ARM will displace x86 from) and the relevant software ecosystems (aka Desktop Linux x86 software ecosystem, including steam games and all, and win32 and win64 software ecosystem)

  19. oiaohm says:

    Aka, that is one of the big advantages, running apps of those ecosystems without emulation penalties.
    How do you get without emulation penalties do you stupidly believe a x86 chip does not have emulation penalties???? Qualcomm chip has benchmarks that says at the same clock speed it doing more x86 instructions per clock cycle than atom chips so that is fairly much forget bothering about atom x86. Its also matching up to i7 quite well most of the time faster.

    The reality is a modern x86 processor has emulation penalties with the microcode.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcode

    Yes Microcode means there is a interpreter between your applications code instructions and the instructions the real cpu cores uses. Without emulation penalties would be use arm64 on arm64 and the like processors that don’t need use interpreter.

    So arm vs x86 it what path has the least emulation penalties will be what one is better or worse. Hardware base emulation in the x86 chips or the software based emulation in the arm64.

    Please note Qemu performance has given people the wrong idea what size is the emulation penalties. Until recently Qemu no matter the number of cpu/threads the application request everything until recently got stuffed into a single thread on a single cpu core. So a 4 core processor being 4.5 to 5 times faster at emulation than qemu is no surprise. Its the commercial ExaGear emulator that showed arm64 was in fact in striking distance of x86 chips running x86 code with emulation.

    The instruction per clock cycle numbers on the x86 vs arm64 running x86 code does suggest either issue with the interpreter running the microcode in the x86 or the core of the x86 is not that good.

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/A_GlGglbu1U
    That’s a (micro)server thing. The text quoted clearly says “taking on x86 on Desktops”.
    This time go watch the video. That video is not the Micro Server. This is Qualcomm is not going to loss market share on tablets or phones and is also looking at making quad to 16 core arms for desktop instead of the 48 core for Micro Servers.

    For server work you don’t run Windows 10 as the video demos. So yes Microsoft is not working on x86 emulation for 48 core arm chips running windows server they are also working on x86 emulation for 16 core and smaller arm chips for phone tablet and desktop.

    Qualcomm is working on more than 1 arm64 chip. Some of their arm64 chips in the work are directly targeted at desktop workloads. As I said end of this year will get interesting.

  20. kurkosdr says:

    Yes they are running win32 x86 on that with emulation

    Ohioham, can you make a relevant post for at least one time in your life? If you re-read my previous comment, it clearly says “without any emulation penalties”. Aka, that is one of the big advantages, running apps of those ecosystems without emulation penalties.

    So this does not align with what Microsoft is doing. The chip in the qualcomm demo is A73 cores.

    That’s a (micro)server thing. The text quoted clearly says “taking on x86 on Desktops”.

    Relevance my little ham, it be good when replying to others. Of course, being relevant requires actual capacity instead of just scrapping links you find around the net.

  21. oiaohm says:

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/A_GlGglbu1U
    kurkosdr this is windows 10 on arm64. Yes they are running win32 x86 on that with emulation this is road mapped for the second half of 2017.

    …aaand Pog’s dreams about ARMed computers taking on x86 on Desktops just became more irrelevant:
    So this does not align with what Microsoft is doing. The chip in the qualcomm demo is A73 cores.

    The second half of 2017 is when Qualcomm will put out its 10nm same time intel is talking about putting out there 10nm. This is going to be a interesting year.

  22. kurkosdr says:

    Desktop Linux win32 and win64 ecosystem = win32 and win64 ecosystem (bad copy and paste)

  23. kurkosdr says:

    …aaand Pog’s dreams about ARMed computers taking on x86 on Desktops just became more irrelevant:

    http://semiaccurate.com/2017/03/15/amd-announces-new-ryzen-5-cpus/

    So, $170 bucks for a CPU which runs all of the Desktop Linux software ecosystem (x86 proprietary apps, x86 steam games and all) without any emulation penalties, all of the Desktop Linux win32 and win64 ecosystem, doesn’t come soldered on a motherboard, has motherboards which come with PCI-E slots to spare, and is in general an all-around performant chip.

    Sure, there will be the occasional penny pincher who will purchase a glorified media-center board and convince himself he bought a home server just because it can compile the linux kernel, but most people will buy an AMD and happily edit their 1080p (4K?) home videos at blistering speeds before playing some nice game.

  24. Mats Hagglund says:

    https://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

    This is beautiful one. Linux pc now bigger than Mac OSX and Windows 8. Marketshare 3.7% in Jan and 4.6% in Feb 2017. In means than in sector of pc Linux has 7-9% market share.

  25. oiaohm says:

    The CPU is still pegged at 100% playing the game in a small window and at 75% running Steam. You sound delusional.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_810
    Dylan if you run those games with a X86 machine from 2001-2002 with video card intel being the 810 found in business machines at the time. Same thing happened to the x86 chip.

    Dylan basically take your rose coloured glasses off and find some real 2001-2002 hardware with intel graphics and find out how bad that really was. Yes pegged at 100 percent CPU load on the x86 because it software rendering is nothing uncommon on a non gaming machine of that time 2001-2002 period.

    So Dylan it you who are delusional about what time frame an RPI 3 lines up to.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_810

    Yes Intel 810 with x86 required turning unreal at the time down to its lowest res to even be somewhat playable. So RPI 3 performs exactly like a 2001-2002 period x86 business computer. Even that RPI 3 CPU clock speed is lower.

    So what is the RPI 4 going to look like.

  26. Dylan says:

    It does not change the fact either that a fairly weak arm64 being a RPi3 A53 with poor gpu can match up to a 2001-2002 x86 Business computers as those were not known for have powerful GPUs. Yes the RPi 10 frames per second is exactly what you expect from that type of machine while consuming way less power.

    The CPU is still pegged at 100% playing the game in a small window and at 75% running Steam. You sound delusional.

  27. oiaohm says:

    It still doesn’t change the fact that the RPi can only muster ten frames per second on a 18-year-old Windows game.
    It does not change the fact either that a fairly weak arm64 being a RPi3 A53 with poor gpu can match up to a 2001-2002 x86 Business computers as those were not known for have powerful GPUs. Yes the RPi 10 frames per second is exactly what you expect from that type of machine while consuming way less power.

    It also does not change the fact Arm64 chips can emulation x86 code at decent speed. If a A53 can do it decent and it the low power design when given performance design things are going to get interesting. 2-3 A53 cores are required to equal the processing power of 1 A73 core. Yes duel core A73 is faster than the quad core that is in the RPi3 at the same speed.

    Dylan the fact arm64 can emulate x86 at decent speed this does change the position a lot. Means intel and amd making x86 chips are not as safe as one would think by having the existing stock pile of applications. This emulation ability could explain Microsoft interest.

  28. Dylan says:

    Of course it does. That is still a more powerful GPU than the raspberry pi 3 has. 1999 x86 cleanly loss to the Nvidia arm chips. This is still a GPU way smaller than you find in current day x86 desktops. The fact the GPU is underpowered has to be considered when looking at gaming benchmarks.

    It still doesn’t change the fact that the RPi can only muster ten frames per second on a 18-year-old Windows game.

  29. DrRLoser wrot, “The Donald has changed his position on various aspects of Women’s Rights (I don’t want to argue that category either way — this is not a moral judgement) in a very Conservative direction.”

    Well, he supports defunding Planned Parenthood these days but some conservatives don’t. Some conservatives think that would increase unplanned pregnancies and abortions… So, his position is not conservative of anything except misogyny.

  30. DrLoser says:

    In fact, I think the more conservative members of SCOTUS are probably horrified at what Trump is doing.

    What you “think,” Robert, is not relevant. And I should point out that The Donald has changed his position on various aspects of Women’s Rights (I don’t want to argue that category either way — this is not a moral judgement) in a very Conservative direction. I’m sure he can pick a candidate deemed suitable to the Conservative wing of the Supreme Court — in fact, he already has.

    Right now it might be down to a filibuster by the Democrats during the confirmation hearings … and I’m not even sure that will work.

  31. Deaf Spy says:

    If liberals wanted to win they only had to pick someone in the primaries that wasn’t a lying, racist, sleaze that talked down to the working class.

    Like Bernie Sanders. I am not a guru on American politics, but I don’t see Sanders losing to Trump.

    But, the liberals did everything possible, including cheating, to see the “presidentially looking in white” big bird, who is unpleasant for any sane and sensible person.

  32. Deaf Spy says:

    Judging by unit-sales…

    Comparing apples and oranges…

  33. oiaohm wrote, “2017 is when we are going to see x86 and arm64 fight it out at the same nm and it going to get interesting to see if intel can keep up.”

    Judging by unit-sales, ARM is way ahead already. If you are stuck on performance per chip per watt… etc. I think Intel will remain in the game but at least they will have no monopoly. Monopoly is a bad thing in markets, technology, bang for the $buck.

  34. Ivan says:

    Still whining about this? If liberals wanted to win they only had to pick someone in the primaries that wasn’t a lying, racist, sleaze that talked down to the working class. They could have easily picked someone that didn’t say one thing to Fortune 100 CEOs and another completely opposite thing in press releases.

    But hey, Trump’s bad!

  35. Lord Humungus says:

    https://i.redd.it/ihk5cppdd3ly.jpg

    This is exactly the reason the electoral college was created. Its insane to think California and a few large cities should be allowed to decide who leads the entire country.

    So viewing this map, the majority of America DID decide on who was to be our leader.

  36. oiaohm says:

    https://www.extremetech.com/computing/245496-qualcomm-announces-partnership-microsoft-48-core-falkor-cpus-run-windows-server
    Yes Arm processor Microsoft is starting with is Qualcomm 48 core 10nm

    http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3001923/intel-10nm-cannon-lake-pcs-will-start-shipping-in-2017

    2017 is when we are going to see x86 and arm64 fight it out at the same nm and it going to get interesting to see if intel can keep up.

  37. DrLoser wrote, “you still fail to comprehend the most important political issue that the USA is facing right now, which is that all three of the Executive, the Legislature, and (in a couple of years or so) the Judiciary are going to be dominated by the Republican Party”.

    That’s nominally the case but these guys can’t agree on anything because Trump is steered by a madman, GOP has two or three factions depending on the issue and the Senate has a razor-thin majority.

    SCOTUS is not controlled by the GOP yet, thank Goodness. In fact, I think the more conservative members of SCOTUS are probably horrified at what Trump is doing. Trump is not conservative at all but tyrannical. There are fiscal conservatives and social conservatives. Trump is neither. SCOTUS conservatives are more or less social conservatives, at least believing in the rule of law. Trump hates laws. He sees them as annoyances limiting his power. The Senate has mostly fiscal conservatives and Trump hasn’t done anything to balance a budget. He’s even derided the CBO, the folks who’s job it is to do the maths. He’s derided every section of government: Education, Intelligence, HUD, Health, Justice… He’s busy sabotaging them all. He just fired a raft of prosecutors and not even nominated replacements and he did it with no notice so current cases may be jeopardized. The man’s a bull in a China shop. Putin is laughing at USA crumbling.

  38. DrLoser wrote, ” Even with a criminal lunatic in charge, it just chugs along and carries the rest of the world with it.”

    Well, that works until he needs to mobilize the world to do something and they all say he’s “crying wolf” or lying again. Imagine the red phone ringing announcing incoming missiles and instead of launching a counterattack, he opts to phone Vlad for clarification… Crazy people can be fun/interesting/different but there are times they just should not be in charge.

    ISTR an incident in which I was involved many years ago. A highly radioactive target had dislodged from the probe on which it was mounted on our cyclotron. The boss rushed in to “take charge” and jammed the thing hard. Then we had to absorb multiple dosages of radiation freeing the thing. That crazy man was dangerous.

    I think Trump is worse. He can indeed so alarm nuclear states that they will preemptively strike figuring their odds are better that way. If you were a nuclear power and Trump threatened devastation, would you wait for it to happen or go for it? There should not be any uncertainty about a commitment to all out war just because there’s a careless, imprecise, blustering idiot at the controls. Trump is breaking things not fixing them. His role seems to be to ruin the USAian government. Putin is fine with that. ISIS and AQAP are fine with that. Trump is giving every bad guy what they want. That’s not putting USA first but USA last.

  39. oiaohm says:

    The Electoral College was set up for that very purpose, aka containing the damage in case some state starts pulling shenanigans in the election process (such as ditching the formality of requiring a citizen ID to make sure the person casting the vote is in fact a US citizen).
    That explains why the USA system can be gamed so much.

    Reality if state can set it own rules on how election can be run if group of states have flaws in their systems the complete system can be gamed.

    Electoral College idea only works because you have groups running for election running country wide able to take advantage of every voting system flaw and gaming the system. There is something to be said for unified voting rules that are updated to get more strict every vote.

  40. DrLoser says:

    They could start with the Bill of Rights, which exists solely to prevent the majority from infringing on the rights of individuals, no matter how great the benefit to society.

    As we both know, Lord Humongous (and it would behove you to spell your title correctly, otherwise I shall have to report you to Debretts, if not to the Lists of Gotha), the US Constitution goes a little further than that in terms of interstate balance.

    I cite here, for example, the remarkably sane early rules for inter-state commerce, without which the USA as we know it could not exist. And aside from the Constitution per se, I will also cite such remarkable achievements as the Environmental Protection Agency …

    … Brought into existence by that cuddly little moderate Republican president, Richard Nixon. On December 2nd, 1970.

    See, Robert? America is stronger than you think. Even with a criminal lunatic in charge, it just chugs along and carries the rest of the world with it.

  41. DrLoser says:

    He can’t tell the truth. He’s no morals at all. He can’t do maths/balance a budget. He can’t even build a wall even if it were useful. He’s certainly not a good manager of people as we were told over and over…

    Sounds just like you, Robert.

    Have you considered being the Canadian Ambassador to Washington?

  42. DrLoser says:

    The Electoral College is still relevant and will continue being relevant for as long as states like California allow people to vote without a citizen ID.

    Linkie requested, you anti-Turk bigot? (The two halves of this are not connected, but then again, irrational bigotry is irrational bigotry, however it shows itself.)

  43. DrLoser says:

    The electoral college may have had some relevance when folks travelled by horse but these days there’s no reason folks can’t vote for prez directly.

    Amongst your many intellectual deficiencies, Robert, we can now count a complete inability to learn from History.

    Two words for you, Robert. First word, Napoleon. And I’m sure you have no clue about the second word.

    Which second word is, third.

    Leave it be. You are not a citizen of the USA. You are not competent to judge, on any level whatsoever. And you still fail to comprehend the most important political issue that the USA is facing right now, which is that all three of the Executive, the Legislature, and (in a couple of years or so) the Judiciary are going to be dominated by the Republican Party. And this is not your father’s “Eisenhower” Republican Party.

    Under the present circumstances, Robert, I am actually pro Donald Trump. He’s nowhere near as dangerous as the rest of them.

  44. Kurkosdr says:

    The electoral college may have had some relevance when folks travelled by horse but these days there’s no reason folks can’t vote for prez directly.

    The Electoral College is still relevant and will continue being relevant for as long as states like California allow people to vote without a citizen ID.

    The Electoral College was set up for that very purpose, aka containing the damage in case some state starts pulling shenanigans in the election process (such as ditching the formality of requiring a citizen ID to make sure the person casting the vote is in fact a US citizen).

    I know that Democrats like the idea of having a bunch of free votes of so in California from illegal immigrants and have them count as much as real votes cast by US citizens, but, no, the US constitution doesn’t work that way.

  45. The electoral college may have had some relevance when folks travelled by horse but these days there’s no reason folks can’t vote for prez directly. There is already regional representation in the Senate. If there was a good reason for prez to be chosen by region, one could just have the Senate choose one of their number to be POTUS. I don’t see any reason to have a College if it can’t/won’t “vote it’s conscience”.

    The College could have voted out TRUMP or HILLARY on weight of lies told/wisdom/good character/whatever and chosen Bob the Baker from Tuscaloosa instead, but it didn’t. It’s useless. Because of the College, USA has the worst president I’ve ever known about. He can’t tell the truth. He’s no morals at all. He can’t do maths/balance a budget. He can’t even build a wall even if it were useful. He’s certainly not a good manager of people as we were told over and over… He’s doing an excellent job as a Russian mole, however.

  46. Lord Humungus says:

    Good words Doctor.

    Democrats attack the Constitution’s method for selecting the president as fundamentally undemocratic and individuals such as Robert, have a point. The Electoral College is not democratic, if by democratic they mean rule by simple majority. It allocates votes to each state by the combined number of Senators and Representatives, which means that states, as states, receive 100 of the 538 (almost 20 percent) of the electors.

    This means that small states have a greater voice in the presidential choice than justified by their populations, otherwise places such as California and New York would basically own the election.

    If Democrats oppose the undemocratic nature of the Electoral College, they should seek to uproot other restraints on democracy. They could start with the Bill of Rights, which exists solely to prevent the majority from infringing on the rights of individuals, no matter how great the benefit to society. They could finish with the administrative state, where unelected bureaucrats exercise most nation regulatory power.

    Liberals, such as Robert, of course, would never oppose these undemocratic aspects of our government, because they more often than not advance their agenda.

  47. DrLoser says:

    It’s catering to sparsely populated rural areas and backwards economies tied to 19th century manufacturing.

    Sounds just like Manitoba to me … so long as you specify “early 20th century.”

    See here, Robert: Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio, North and South Carolina, plus Georgia don’t actually fit your ridiculous model. In other words, as usual, you are going over the top to make the real world fit into your petty little preference.

    Now, as it happens, I share that petty little preference. I, like you, would have preferred a Hillary to the Donald. By a country mile.

    But, y’know what? You just sound like a feeble old fool when you attempt to list objections like this. The Electoral College is what it is, and on the whole it has served America very well for two centuries and longer.

    I’d be more concerned about the Republican monopoly across the House, the Senate, the Presidency, and very probably the Supreme Court, if I were you.

    But then again, I think about these things. All you do, Robert … all you do … is bleat.

    A fifth career as a senile billy goat beckons!

  48. Kurkosdr wrote, “Trump didn’t win because he was a “personality” (that was more of a liability), your ideas got rejected pal. Deal with it”.

    Oh. What about the popular vote? You know, 3 million more votes for Hillary and her old ideas rather than Trumpism? That’s not rejection of liberal ideas. It’s rejection of representation by population. It’s catering to sparsely populated rural areas and backwards economies tied to 19th century manufacturing. It’s about all the lies Trump told, like being out for the little guy…

  49. oiaohm says:

    http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/04/09/relative-performance-of-arm-cortex-a-32-bit-and-64-bit-cores/

    This is a integer performance to Mhz rating. At this point this you should start seeing issue. A72 is 40 percent faster at integer per clock cycle than old A17. Nothing about an atom class chip can out run current top end Arm64. Same is true for the very old X86.

    http://www.roylongbottom.org.uk/dhrystone%20results.htm
    Yes the Raspberry PI 3 is also the A53 the weakest of the Arm64 bit chips.

    Raspberry PI 3 A53 on it default clocking the cpu is faster than November 20, 2000 release pentium 4. Pentium 4 has to be running at 1900Mhz to equal to slightly beat Raspberry PI 3 A53 running at 1200Mhz. So August 2001 x86 the cpu in the Raspberry PI 3 is competitive with. But its important to take note of the performance per clock cycle. If you could push the A53 processor speed limit up

    Anything not getting double the drystone to clock cycle is uncompetitive against the A53. 6-7.5 times the mhz out of A72 is you don’t out of current day i7 cpus that require more silicon you are lucky to see 5.

    So at the same clock speed A72 core is faster than a x86 one. That is fact. So you can afford some overhead in emulation as long as you can get the chips on equal Mhz footing.

  50. Kurkosdr says:

    This is what people like Pog don’t want to admit: Trump didn’t win because he was a “personality” (that was more of a liability), your ideas got rejected pal. Deal with it

    How many people in Western countries take the left seriously anymore? So, we have the perpetually guilt-ridden Germans and… who else? On most EU countries, the left polls as a distant third, best case scenario. Who would have thought that a system of political beliefs which has Venezuela and Cuba as ideals (there are no other real-world examples), supports a form of globalisation that has benefited only China (a dictatorship), and advocates feeding and housing an unlimited number of (non-)refugees instead of simply letting them stay in Turkey would crumble in the eyes of public opinion once the patina of political correctness, vague talk about social justice and appeal to some undefined morality wore off?

  51. Kurkosdr says:

    USAians seem to elect “personalities” rather than real people.

    USAians seem to elect people who serve their interests, which is why leftards and conservatives take turns in power and why the US is a good place to live. Conservatives create wealth and the liberals then redistribute some of it. So, during the last US election, the people show that redistribution on the US had gone a tad too far with the whole “You didn’t build that” and the whole “Mr Obama Can I Have A Pony” entitlement of many social groups ( everything2(dot)com/title/Mister+Obama+can+I+have+a+pony ) so the people voted for hard conservatism. Also, the people show that having the federal government and several states turn a blind eye to illegal immigration is BLATANTLY against their interests, because it takes immigration regulation away from laws created by elected representatives and lawmakers and puts it into the hands of all kinds of shady NGOs funded by God-Knows-Who in practice. So, the people also voted for tough on illegal immigration.

    Aka, they voted for Trump.

    Deal with it.

  52. DrLoser wrote, ” If only you had picked up on this Twitter thin, as Trump has.”

    That supposition completely ignores that Trump grew a huge following on TV long before Twitter mattered. Same goes for electability. USAians seem to elect “personalities” rather than real people.

  53. oiaohm says:

    No, I’m saying that this ARM setup you’re praising pales in comparison to a x86 gaming PC from the 1999.
    Of course it does. That is still a more powerful GPU than the raspberry pi 3 has. 1999 x86 cleanly loss to the Nvidia arm chips. This is still a GPU way smaller than you find in current day x86 desktops. The fact the GPU is underpowered has to be considered when looking at gaming benchmarks.

    Intel Atom had with Android was that it was performing well in benchmarks like AnTuTu, but some ARM native games run with performance penalties due to the emulation involved).
    http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/01/21/antutu-benchmark-rockchip-rk3288-arm-vs-intel-atom-z3735f/
    This is for Dylan that benchmark is faster than what a 1999 PC gaming pc can do. Its funny what a decent grade of gpu does to an arm processor.

    Kurkosdr funny you mention AnTuTu . That is a A17 what is an arm32 vs Atom x86 please note arm64 designs is faster and uses less silicon than A17. The A17 in that benchmark is 28nm and the atom is 22 nm. Both chips have to function in the same heat allowance. Due to atom having a large dia size it has longer tracks in the silicon so has more resistance per clock cycle so has to run at a lower clock speed for the same heat output.

    So, Android users are interested in ARM CPUs (one of the problems Intel Atom had with Android was that it was performing well in benchmarks like AnTuTu, but some ARM native games run with performance penalties due to the emulation involved).
    So atom were behind the 8 ball before they had to perform emulation. You might point to integer performance. This is where thing get interesting.

    “superior RISC machine compared to outdated x86 CISC garbage”
    This line is kind of true and kind of false.

    x86 CISC is using a microcode processor that optimises the code to make it faster. So what happening inside a modern x86 is x86 CISC goes into the CPU then it converted to the internal RISC like instruction and optimised. x86 emulating arm you now have a double stack of conversion. So the userspace arm code attempts to optimise one way and the microcode processor can be optimising another leading to totally not ideal performance.

    Arm is different and the difference reduces the emulation overhead. Decanted a core or cores to emulating the microcode processor. Since this is emulated in userspace the microcode processor calculated optimisations can be cached back to normal ram and shared between cores. So arm is a oddish case where a native arm program can be slower than x86 version in emulation because the emulation got to add runtime optimisation. Same thing use to happen on the Apple PPC systems that wine running in QEMU at times was faster than the native Apple PPC program.

    Even new x86 Desktop Linux software and Steam games doesn’t have an ARM version, not always.
    Kurkosdr is this a problem. Most likely not. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Remember emulating x86 on arm give you runtime optimisation. If person making software does not know how to make software optimised properly for arm the best thing they most likely can do is provide a x86 version. Like integer maths being faster on atom that is microcode runtime optimisation that arm does not have in native mode.

    Now x86 without native is trouble because emulating arm does not give x86 anything it does not already have. Yet arm emulating x86 is giving it something it does not have that does improve performance. So arm has overhead from emulation on on side and performance games from emulation on the other when emulating x86.

  54. DrLoser says:

    From Lose ’95 to XP there was little or no defence against malware and the Earth was without form and void.

    Ooh, Apocalyptic raving! Nothing more convincing than The End Of All Days!

    You sure you don’t share certain weirdo characteristics with President The Donald, Robert?

    Because you certainly seem to be on the same wavelength. If only you were as young as Trump. If only you had picked up on this Twitter thin, as Trump has.

    #ManitobanMisersMatter.

  55. DrLoser says:

    You’re claiming facts not in evidence.

    Actually, Robert, Kurks is minimising the observable facts, presumably because he has some sort of man-crush on you. I can’t think of any other reason.

    51% of the market is a majority, Robert. Even your own figures, pulled out of some celestial orifice or other, admit that Wintel has rather more than that.

    The Wiz is the only one I know who keeps ancient versions of software…

    Interesting evasion technique there, Robert. Truly interesting.

    Do please go on to detail your source for this amusing assumption about “ancient versions of software.”

  56. DrLoser says:

    Fortunately games can be played with sticks and stones or even a mud puddle. Computer games are not essential.

    Tell me, Robert, do you have children?

    That, of course, is a question from Socratic Ignorance. Of course you do.

    Now, here’s the thing. Children in the twenty first century are not satisfied with sticks, stones, and mud puddles. It’s sad, but there you are. In fact, I very much doubt that you brought your children up with nothing more than sticks, stones, and mud puddles to play with.

    Of course, you are free to proclaim me wrong. Perhaps that is exactly how you brought your children up.

    In one way (Dickensian), it certainly sounds in character.

  57. Kurkosdr wrote, “Even new x86 Desktop Linux software and Steam games doesn’t have an ARM version, not always.”

    Fortunately games can be played with sticks and stones or even a mud puddle. Computer games are not essential.

  58. Kurkosdr says:

    Even new x86 Desktop Linux software and Steam games doesn’t have an ARM version, not always.

  59. Kurkosdr wrote, “for the most users have a collection of proprietary software and Steam games and ISA compatibility is paramount for them.”

    You’re claiming facts not in evidence. The Wiz is the only one I know who keeps ancient versions of software. Usually they get lost or die with a hard drive or just get old. I remember the “wonderful” software from Lose ’95. I don’t know anyone who wants to use that stuff these days. A lot of it ran on DOS and had very poor graphics. Ugly stuff. Newer stuff usually has recent versions. Then, there’s malware. From Lose ’95 to XP there was little or no defence against malware and the Earth was without form and void. No one wants to revisit all that. Meanwhile, one can have 21st century software for a song and much more runs on servers. There’s very little need to run old software except in corner cases and then it can usually run off the web to get air-gapped security. Not many PCs run that way today.

  60. Dylan says:

    Just because something is a 18 year old game does not make it friendly to run. Wine is able to run Unreal Tournament effectively when off load particular things to a modern video card.

    No, I’m saying that this ARM setup you’re praising pales in comparison to a x86 gaming PC from the 1999.

  61. kurkosdr says:

    Show us actual Intel or AMD product and OS that can run an ARMed GNU/Linux system at the same frame rates as an octal cored Cortex A-72 system with 8MB L2 cache and four sockets of the latest DDR4 RAM.

    ARM Desktop Linux software is a subset of x86 Desktop Linux software. So, Desktop Linux users are interested in x86 CPUs.

    However, ARM Android native software is a superset of x86 Android native software. So, Android users are interested in ARM CPUs (one of the problems Intel Atom had with Android was that it was performing well in benchmarks like AnTuTu, but some ARM native games run with performance penalties due to the emulation involved).

    Pog, I know this sounds weird to you, because you are a person living inside the totally-not-a-walled-garden repos or recompiling FOSS software, but for the most users have a collection of proprietary software and Steam games and ISA compatibility is paramount for them. It’s the reason Jobs hang-on to PowerPC, despite IBM making it clear that they are not going to give them any decent PowerPC laptops CPUs (there wasn’t a big enough market for them), and he only switched to Intel when the difference in performance had become simply ridiculous. Before the switch to Intel, Jobs had a double mouth, he defended PowerPC as a “superior RISC machine compared to outdated x86 CISC garbage” publicly, but internally he was carefully watching the engineers developing Roseta so he could patch the ISA problem and ditch PowerPC. That’s the importance of ISA compatibility, my buddy. Jobs had to postpone the switch as much as possible to not lose it.

    But hey, with Ryzen and AMD’s mobile archtecture, keep dreaming that most Desktop Linux users will ditch x86 (and their high framerates on their collection of x86 Steam games) just to go to ARM for… reasons.

  62. Deaf Spy wrote, “semi-working instances of Firefox and LO”

    LO works perfectly on Odroid-C2. Why would it not? FireFox-esr now works properly on Odroid-C2. Thanks for reminding me to check on it…

    I got that with ssh -Y pogson@odroid-c2 "/usr/bin/firefox". It’s quite snappy too.

  63. Deaf Spy says:

    Both of them stink.

    But dear Doctor, how could you say that? The glorious Odroid works for TLW and even for Robert. This absolutely, undisputedly means that it works for the world! The only thing the World needs is a cheap Odroid, hacked over with Debian and some semi-working instances of Firefox and LO.

  64. Kurkosdr, ever moving goal-posts, wrote, “Show us actual ARM product and OS that can run x86 Steam games (Desktop Linux or Windows) on the same frame rates as Intel or AMD, or GTFO.”

    Show us actual Intel or AMD product and OS that can run an ARMed GNU/Linux system at the same frame rates as an octal cored Cortex A-72 system with 8MB L2 cache and four sockets of the latest DDR4 RAM. You can’t do it, eh? NYA NYA NYA!

  65. Kurkosdr says:

    Blah blah blah.

    Show us actual ARM product and OS that can run x86 Steam games (Desktop Linux or Windows) on the same frame rates as Intel or AMD, or GTFO.

  66. oiaohm says:

    Dylan you left out something import.
    2010 Westmere Intel I3 run Unreal Tournament inside wine with software rendering is 1FPS. What is even more shocking is that is double the clock-speed of the Raspberry pi 3 and is ahead of it in nm being 32nm instead of Raspberry Pi 3 40nm.

    So without question the Raspberry pi should have been no competition.

    The i3 takes a bigger area of silicon than the quad core raspberry pi 3 even if that it has a nm advantage.
    1) Unreal Tournament is a 18-year-old game, and 2) even then, at 10 fps, the frame rate is atrocious.
    So 10 fps sound atrocious. Until wake up that put in the level testing condition of the same nm and the same stuffed GPU the raspberry pi has run rings around the x86 under equal conditions with different applications.

    You forgot that was not Unreal Tournament running as a Linux game that was Unreal Tournament running inside wine on Linux with some nasty overheads that can bring x86 to its knees and start begging for mercy. So it impressive that it made it to anywhere near playable speed.

    Just because something is a 18 year old game does not make it friendly to run. Wine is able to run Unreal Tournament effectively when off load particular things to a modern video card.

    It would helped if you had done your research on how bad x86 was when it was without a decent graphics card.

    trap both in software rendering.
    The key thing I said was trap both in software rendering. It is surprising just how fast arm64 turns out to be. Its 30 percent overhead at worse. Some thing is 10 times faster.

    These arm64 benchmarks make me wish I could get my hands on a 16 core arm64 running at 4Ghz that has a pci-e 16x slot for a serous video card. It might turn out that x86 is absolute garbage at even running it native code.

  67. Dylan says:

    Now lot of new steam games support benchmarking modes. So we know new games run in emulation. benchmark mode don’t care how low the frame rate is. Interesting enough how closed intel and arm64 is when you trap both in software rendering.

    Two things you conveniently left out is 1) Unreal Tournament is a 18-year-old game, and 2) even then, at 10 fps, the frame rate is atrocious.

  68. oiaohm says:

    good luck running new x86 Desktop Linux apps and games with emulation
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8VmXCRAMXI
    Raspberry Pi Exagear Desktop example

    Now lot of new steam games support benchmarking modes. So we know new games run in emulation. benchmark mode don’t care how low the frame rate is. Interesting enough how closed intel and arm64 is when you trap both in software rendering.

    Kurkosdr the reality you have not checked what people have already done. The overhead is 30%. Arm64 will have to be 30% faster to exactly match the x86. But this will be more than possible. The smaller transistor count of a arm64 allows for it due to the speed of electrons in wires.

    The raspberry pi 2 gpu only supports opengl 2.1 lot of games really want better than that.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-x86-on-arm64-emulation-a-windows-10-redstone-3-fall-2017-deliverable/
    That the overhead is only 30 percent even Microsoft is going to be doing it.

    So the days that x86 applications demand an x86 process days are numbered be it on Windows or Linux. x86 on both platforms will demand either an Arm64 or x86 chip. There are a few things in the Arm64 instruction set that make emulation more effective.

    http://wiki.qemu-project.org/Features/tcg-multithread

    Qemu is not that useful yet because its multithread support is not fully functional. The way to get performance out of arm64 is to take the two that share the same l2 cache. Have one run code conversion and have one run the code. For a lot of the current games more than 8 threads at once is pointless. So 16 core arm chip. Thinking that is not a particularly large problem thinking 64 core arm64 chips exist.

    There are arm64 motherboards today that take standard Pci-e video cards and are fast enough to-do the job of running x86 games and applications at almost the same speed as x86 processor would have of the same nm of production.

    The shocking reality is if Intel remains stuck at 14nm and the ones making arm64 chips are able to get to lower nm we could end up in the location where the fast thing to run x86 applications is arm64 processor.

    Kurkosdr so the current location with what runs in arm64 vs x86 is quite dynamic on how it going to play out over the next few years. But it also bring even questions what happens when we hit nm bottom where we cannot go any smaller. When both arm64 and x86 are on the same nm and as current tests show performance is about the same.

    Raspberry pi 3 is 40nm processor. So you are talking something that is like 2008 x86 speeds then perform software rendering on that. Its not like steam and its games performs well stuck with software rendering on a 2008 x86 in fact they perform fairly much like the Raspberry pi 3 running them with emulation does.

    This is the catch when you set-up fair compares based on the technology level the arm64 chips are you don’t see some magic advantage for x86 processors.

  69. DrLoser says:

    I’ve counted the ARMed packages and the AMD64 packages in Debian GNU/Linux and they are similar. There certainly isn’t a reason to pick one architecture over the other on that basis.

    For once, Robert, you are approaching common sense. You are absolutely correct. There is practically no difference at all between the two.

    Both of them stink.

    Now, which sewage-infested bran-tub would you recommend for, say, Munich?

  70. Kurkosdr wrote, “The x86 Desktop Linux ecosystem is richer than ARM Desktop Linux ecosystem and that’s why most Desktop Linux users need x86 CPUs. There is no “Wintel”. Do you copy, old man?”

    I’ve counted the ARMed packages and the AMD64 packages in Debian GNU/Linux and they are similar. There certainly isn’t a reason to pick one architecture over the other on that basis.

    There is indeed Wintel. M$ and Intel worked hand in hand to enslave the world to monopoly for decades. It wasn’t a natural evolution either. M$ and Intel did many curious contortions to prevent competition. Much of the insecurity of TOOS from ~1995 to recent times was simply bringing in useless features that gave away insecurity in place of convenience. Intel loved that the usual way of upgrading TOOS was to buy a new Intel processor helping to compensate for the bloat. Remember “best seen at 800×600”? I do. It was carried on long after folks could deal with 1024×768 quite comfortably on stock PCs. Remember BSODs? I do. We were always told it was a problem with hardware but when we installed GNU/Linux such problems magically disappeared. That was Wintel. It’s real even today, although a little frayed at the edges: mobility, servers, PCs.

  71. Kurkosdr says:

    good luck running x86 Desktop Linux apps and games with emulation = good luck running new x86 Desktop Linux apps and games with emulation

  72. Kurkosdr says:

    Almost all old software will be rife with vulnerabilities.

    Old x86 software can get by with emulation due to lower requirements but is buggy and generally lame, good luck running x86 Desktop Linux apps and games with emulation. The x86 Desktop Linux ecosystem is richer than ARM Desktop Linux ecosystem and that’s why most Desktop Linux users need x86 CPUs. There is no “Wintel”. Do you copy, old man?

  73. kurkosdr wrote, “even Desktop Linux users need x86 because the ecosystem is richer than ARM.”

    Eh… I don’t see it that way. Almost all old software will be rife with vulnerabilities. Don’t need/want them. ARM has most of the Debian repository. That works for me, except for ultra-current stuff like browsers and word-processors. I update rapidly because I don’t want any vulnerabilities in the work-horses. They are prime points of attack so it’s criminal to use old versions.

  74. oiaohm says:

    And how is this different from just saying “they don’t work, except the old ones which can be made to work with emulation”, dumbass ham of Ohio origin?
    kurkosdr No the new one on the Nvidia arm boards do like 5 frame per second.

    Not big enough GPU not big enough CPU.

    kurkosdr steam the program x86 itself in you had watched the video runs on a Raspberry PI 3. There are a lot of the Linux games in the steam store that are not that demanding.

    So yes installing x86 steam for Linux on a arm device is doable today. If you want to play every game from the steam store that is not happening. Even on something like a i3 Intel there are games in the steam store for Linux that don’t work.

    Do Steam for Linux games run on ARM?
    kurkosdr the question here was does steam work on arm so you can get Linux games that way and the answer is yes. Even under window not all games in steam work on every computer.

    So raspberry PI is like using a really old x86. So there is a line in the sand for how old of a x86 is worth it these days.

  75. kurkosdr says:

    Which of course means that the whole Pogson drivel about “Wintel” is BS.

  76. kurkosdr says:

    kurkosdr the answer is in fact yes they do just not always very well. Normally the x86 old games where emulation is not a problem work.

    And how is this different from just saying “they don’t work, except the old ones which can be made to work with emulation”, dumbass ham of Ohio origin?

    So, even Desktop Linux users need x86 because the ecosystem is richer than ARM.

  77. oiaohm says:

    Do Steam for Linux games run on ARM? No?
    kurkosdr the answer is in fact yes they do just not always very well. Normally the x86 old games where emulation is not a problem work.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8VmXCRAMXI
    Raspberry Pi Exagear Desktop example

    I guess all those Desktop Linux users who also like to play Steam games on their desktops need an x86 CPU.
    Right at the moment Linux users are normally not after the older games that much as lot of them have alternative engines that are native.

    So there is a line in the sand of arm performance vs x86 performance vs emulation overhead. Can we currently get arm64 bit cpus big enough in processor power to cover the emulation costs and beat x86 chip the answer is no. Is this possible the answer is yes it is. Everything bar having powerful enough silicon exists.

    Linux syscalls are unified enough that you only need to emulate the user-space. The kernel can be native to the architecture. Its not impossible for more parts to be made native.

  78. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “HAHAHAHA!!! ROFL! AMEN…CHUCKLE.”

    Enjoying yourself, Dougie?

  79. Grece says:

    Pigs wont fly sir. Microsoft is a progressive company and Muslims don’t eat pork. How in the hell will pigs fly in such a venue?

    At least them sneaky Chinese can fool them stupid Arabs into consuming halal pork, that is labeled as beef.

    HAHAHAHA!!! ROFL! AMEN…CHUCKLE.

  80. DrLoser says:

    Last year, M$ was 99.999% Wintel. Next year it will be dramatically lower.

    Define “dramatically,” please. One less sigma? Or even more?

    Then again, as you slip into senile old age, Robert, I suppose that one sigma is about as much drama as your ancient heart can take.

  81. DrLoser says:

    From your cite, Robert:

    That, and the fact that it wants Intel – which dominates the global server compute market, and supplies Microsoft’s data centers with chips – to slash its prices.

    So, one giant corporation leaning on another giant corporation to suck dollars out of one pocket and into another pocket.

    Nothing new to see here. Move along.

  82. kurkosdr says:

    Just to be sure you are getting it Pog (I am using “getting it” loosely here as in “stop repeating an absurd misconception intact”):

    MS needs Intel and AMD on the desktop to protect their win32 and win64 ecosystem from fracturing. aka having mutually incompatible win32-x86 vs win32-arm and win64-x86 vs win64-arm. This is the whole reason x86-64 was such a blessing because it maintained backwards compatibility (win32 apps worked on Windows x86-64) so users’ investments in existing closed-source software licenses were protected. It is also the reason PowerPC went nowhere despite MS porting Windows NT to it (it didn’t protect investments in existing software licenses). If x86-64 didn’t exist, we ‘d still be rocking x63-32 with PAE on the desktop side.

    Intel and AMD don’t need MS on the desktop, they have Mac OS X too.

    MS does not need Intel and AMD on servers, phones or everywhere else.

    Intel and AMD don’t need MS on servers, phones or everywhere else.

  83. kurkosdr says:

    What fraction of Intel’s business is M$?

    Depends on how large MS’s datacenters are and what portion of them are Intel CPUs, but on the grand scheme of things, pretty small percentage I guess.

    MS’s is not a large business for MS. People who want to run their Desktop software (compiled for x86) are where the money are. How much of this software is win32 and win64 is irrelevant. Even on Desktop Linux, there is more x86 software than ARM.

    BTW… Do Steam for Linux games run on ARM? No? I guess all those Desktop Linux users who also like to play Steam games on their desktops need an x86 CPU.

  84. kurkosdr, respecting the obvious, wrote, “But on the server side… sure MS can support any architecture”

    Good. What fraction of Intel’s business is M$? What fraction of Intel’s business is M$’s server farms? It’s a start. Last year, M$ was 99.999% Wintel. Next year it will be dramatically lower. This is good for everyone, that people know there is choice. Only last year, folks here were telling me there was no choice. Remember? It was all about the applications then… Oh wait. That was just last month.

    Deaf Spy: “ARM has exactly zero influence on Intel’s prices right now. Reason: applications.”

    Of course, he/she may have been writing about the desktop.

    Last month, Kurkosdr even made fun of M$:“I am getting hopes he will soon understand that the architecture of the cpu his Linux kernel is running on is irrelevant if you plan on compiling all your software anyway, and that longing for exotic ARM boards when x86 Linux boards exist and are as commoditised as microwave ovens is just silly.”

    For the greater certainty, M$ is talking about servers.

    On May 19, 2016, Deaf Spy wrote, “Don’t wait, Robert.
     
    …until ARM’s latest tech finds its way to AMD or someone else to make proper server/desktop chips with good bandwidth, SATA and RAM …
     
    That will not happen any time soon. There is exactly zero demand for such hardware in short term. I will give you three guesses why.”

  85. kurkosdr says:

    Pog, Pog, Pog… Haven’t you learned anything at all?

    Being architecture-happy is easy on the server-side. Most of the code is interpreted (PHP) or bytecode (JVM) anyway, and any other code is probably internal code that you have the source for, like internal ASP.NET code, so it doesn’t matter what the architecture is. Indeed, on the server-side, we have or had anything from SPARC, to MIPS, to Itanium, to the occasional persisting mainframe, to x86 and we are probably going to also have ARM.

    On the desktop side, things are different. Good luck telling the customer who wants to run TurboTax and the desktop version of Photoshop at home (none of them have ARM version) and also wants to run some CRM application at work (which even if it gets an ARM version, it will need a new license costing thousands of dollars).

    This is what you don’t understand: Microsoft does not have any attachment to Intel or AMD or x86 beyond the obvious: Not fracturing the Windows Desktop Apps ecosystem. It is also the reason MS makes an effort to not change the win32 and win64 APIs when it’s possible, unlike Desktop Linux which changes API for fun (the PulseAudio early adoption trainwreck by distros is a prime example). It is all about keeping the Windows Desktop Apps ecosystem as unfractured as possible to maintain their business advantage.

    But on the server side… sure MS can support any architecture., Windows NT was ported to PowerPC once, and Windows CE supported every mobile architecture under the sun. MS do not sell x86 CPUs themselves. And they don’t meet with the boss of Intel and AMD in an underground lair every full moon and perform profane rituals either. They just happen to have a mutual business interest in the Desktop space (and nowhere else).

  86. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Please advise, ok?”

    Bad Dougie… You were banned, now go away!

  87. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Speaking of flying, did you read/see this?”

    Back again Dougie?

    Ah, the joys of sock puppets.

  88. Grece says:

    Speaking of flying, did you read/see this?

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/courtenay-resident-deported-to-netherlands-1.4012844

    Very hypocritical of Canada; all the man had to do with wear a hijab and he could have stayed.

  89. oiaohm says:

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/16/12507568/intel-arm-mobile-chips-licensing-deal-idf-2016

    Robert Pogson intel reactivated their arm license in 2016. The issue now is if Intel can get back on track in the nm game..

  90. oiaohm wrote, “This arm on servers at Microsoft could be those working in Windows Phone attempting to save ass.”

    That’s pretty deep… I think it’s more likely M$ trying to remain competitive. Google is gaining advantage by going with renewable energy and optimizing stuff in the racks. M$ seems to want a better platform for certain tasks that work well with ARM, and possibly reduce energy consumption/capital cost. I think it’s the market doing what the courts/government failed to do, force Wintel to diversify.

    I have been thinking of buying a smartphone for GPS/imaging/browsing/blogging. It’s amazing what one can buy for ~$100, lots of RAM, good CPU, big enough screen, nice camera, huge battery… Everyone who has or will be building acres of servers will be looking at the same choices but instead of AMD/Intel it’s now AMD/Intel/a host of ARMed devices. The first ARMed server-chips were marginal but ARM is flexible. Chips can quickly be redesigned. M$, GOOGLE, FaceBook and even Intel have been in on the redesign. Intel may eventually produce ARMed chips. They already have a licence from back in the day.

  91. oiaohm says:

    This arm on servers at Microsoft could be those working in Windows Phone attempting to save ass.

    Qualcomm is the chipmaker you have to use if you want to make a Windows Phone. They are not getting that much out of Windows Phone. So unless Qualcomm can see some profit at the end of the Microsoft deal they could end up pulling out of the deal.

    Yes ARM on servers by Microsoft is about keeping Qualcomm hopeful.

  92. Tarek Fatah wrote, “Please advise”.

    M$ is doing that on ARM, which was my point. I’d prefer they use Debian GNU/Linux but it’s still a blow to the Intel monopoly in servers.

  93. Tarek Fatah says:

    Man that say Microsoft in decline, than say Microsoft build server ARM server, HAHAHAHA!!! ROFL!, not have have head screwed on straight.

    Mr. Pogson, you advocate Debian and GNU/Linux, but Microsoft not use either okay? Maybe you drunk, and root for wrong side, I point this out so perhaps you make correction.

    Please advise, ok?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *