Munich’s Fake News On GNU/Linux

“”Employees are not satisfied with our IT,” Reiter told a council meeting on Wednesday morning, citing a report he had commissioned from Accenture. “More than half are not happy.”
 
Accenture’s report, which included a survey of Munich council staff, did not finger LiMux as the main culprit for employees’ dissatisfaction.
 
As council member Florian Roth of the Greens pointed out during Wednesday’s debate, the local authority’s IT organisational structure was to blame. “68.6 percent said they were completely satisfied with the software,” Roth argued.”
 
See Linux’s Munich crisis: Crunch vote locks city on course for Windows return
Truth doesn’t seem to matter much in politics these days. Just repeat a lie. If enough believe it, you get what you want… Despite proof that GNU/Linux works for Munich, the mayor and friends are going to migrate back to Wintel at all costs. They’ve voted to make the plan which will waste $millions. They’ve crept right up to the edge of the cliff. Let’s see if they actually have the courage and spite and gaul to jump.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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57 Responses to Munich’s Fake News On GNU/Linux

  1. oiaohm says:

    dougman it applies to the 15 million dollar question DrLoser asked about. Particular how recent of hardware is not support. So that information was not for Robert alone.

    So on topic cite and you have to but in with garbage because you are totally not relevant at all.

  2. dougman says:

    “Intel does support cpu made in 2011 and before with Windows 10.”

    Hey you wombat. Pogsey does not like Intel and refuses to use Windows, anything. Did you slip and break your head on a rock?

  3. oiaohm says:

    http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/processors/000006105.html
    Intel does support cpu made in 2011 and before with Windows 10. So 6 year of hardware life by staying on current windows. This will cause trouble with Munich existing pool of systems.

  4. oiaohm says:

    http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3004579/university-suffers-ddos-attack-after-its-schooled-by-own-iot-devices
    Ivan
    Or you could just learn how to properly firewall your intranet, Pete.
    Reality does not work against known recent attacks. Some of the recent attacks have come from infected phones and like of employees and other people meant to be on the network. Firewall does not protect you from a overload attack.

    So any device exposed on the Intranet that is exploitable increases the possibility of your Intranet being ddos attacked internally.

    Internal devices attacking your servers is normally far more damaging than an attack from the internet due to more bandwidth on internal network side in most cases.

    Basically Ivan smart ass answer that has no base in current attack environment. Yes firewalls help but exploitable devices create new levels of nightmares.

    Please don’t say smart network switches are the solution to this. Remember they are a internal device running firmware that could be compromised due to some code flaw that you may not know about. If it in the network switches turning off ports is not possible. So at a min you need to know what is in your servers and switches are solid. Of course the more you know is solid the lower your risk is.

    Question what OS should you be firewalling with if you are after absolute security that is open source. There is only one correct answer and to be helpful it not Linux or BSD. In fact just implementing a firewall is not good enough.

  5. Ivan says:

    So you do need to a decent amount about the software inside or some point in the future you will be paying a price for not knowing.

    Or you could just learn how to properly firewall your intranet, Pete.

  6. oiaohm says:

    Cite it, oiaohm. I’m asking for the Math. You are providing nothing.
    When the same kind of debate started that was false in 2014 I cited the video back then few times. DrLoser you must have never watched. So pointless citing it again for you.
    https://summit.debconf.org/debconf15/meeting/341/linux-in-the-city-of-munich-aka-limux/
    You are needing to watch this video. Will need to take notes to work out the ages of stuff.

    DrLoser DRBL is scarily effective. You can do a 100 clients to a single server no problem. Even more if you using p2p in the are drbl client themselves.
    http://wiki.linux-nfs.org/wiki/index.php/P2P_Design_Specification
    Of course selling the harddrives for scrap and getting the server money 4x over requires selling the old harddrives for best possible price.

    So 2000 machines to a single server is possible in a DRBL setup. In a P2P setup with DRBL you can reboot the server and most people don’t notice.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
    So right DrLoser. Wait you meant that as a joke because you had absolutely no clue how DRBL can just keep on scaling to basically forever from a single server. You added extra servers for redundancy because bandwidth issues are service by the clients themselves. DRBL is a lot different to LTSP.

    if you need the source code to debug/understand/build the software?

    If the manufacturer does their job properly you don’t need to do anything beyond reading the manual.
    Ivan how do you know when you must junk the device. A lot of recent attacks have come from devices still containing like out of date openssl or other known exploited parts. So the manual never provides enough details to know if a item is secure.

    Why do they have to? If the Router/DVR/IP Camera works as intended you have no need to touch the software that operates it.
    Work as intended until the day it gets hacked and starts attacking your network because you did not have the details to know it need to be replaced or updated due to security issues. So you do need to a decent amount about the software inside or some point in the future you will be paying a price for not knowing.

  7. Ivan wrote, ” If the Router/DVR/IP Camera works as intended you have no need to touch the software that operates it.”

    PCs are a different matter. They are an open architecture and must accept a gazillion configurations with equipment unknown to the manufacturer.

  8. Ivan says:

    Friendlier to whom

    Pretty much every single router/DVR/IP Camera manufacturer.

    if you need the source code to debug/understand/build the software?

    If the manufacturer does their job properly you don’t need to do anything beyond reading the manual.

    The BSD licences permit provision of source code but don’t require it so what’s a distro to do?

    Get over themselves?

    How do they modify the code to work with a given system if the source code is not available?

    Why do they have to? If the Router/DVR/IP Camera works as intended you have no need to touch the software that operates it.

  9. DrLoser wrote, “had you the need to go for a *nix base, then BSD has a far friendlier licence”.

    Friendlier to whom, if you need the source code to debug/understand/build the software? The BSD licences permit provision of source code but don’t require it so what’s a distro to do? How do they modify the code to work with a given system if the source code is not available? It’s not very friendly to patch binary code. I’ve done it.

  10. DrLoser wrote, “the only school remotely in range is Chemawawin”.

    Yes, that is the school. It’s huge and we had a cluster of thin clients or multi-seat X machines in each classroom, the library, the shop, the lab and even the students’ lounge. The typical school in that region in those days would be lucky to have 30 seats. We had ~150 for less money, local servers, databases, printers and scanners, thanks to thin clients and GNU/Linux.

  11. DrLoser says:

    Talk about Jumping The Shark:

    Selling the disc-less machines hard-drives for scrap metal will normally get you enough cash to buy the new servers to run them with new hard-drives 4 times over due to the number of machines a individual server can support using drbl.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  12. DrLoser says:

    To be correct we were discussing Easterville school. Yet you provided a link about Easterville general.

    Sweetie, you may not be standing on very firm ground here. Easterville itself has a population of less than a hundred. The surrounding area, which I believe (and Robert can correct me) is basically part of the Cree nation, can obviously be added to that number, particularly in relation to schooling.

    But I’m going to go out on a limb here and claim, unless other evidence surfaces, that the only school remotely in range is Chemawawin.

    Perhaps either you or Robert could supply a useful and preferably recent linkie, oiaohm?

    Because otherwise, I think we can all conclude that Douglas was absolutely correct.

  13. DrLoser says:

    They’re even moving to a BSD-style license. Must suck to be a fan of that Minix clone…

    Ooh, that must hurt bad, Robert.

    All these years we’ve been pointing out that, had you the need to go for a *nix base, then BSD has a far friendlier licence, and now it turns out that Google/Android/Debian/Linux/GNU is … about to take our advice.

    Well, some of us are Professionals in the field, and some are just Rank Amateurs.

    Fifi being more rank than most, obviously, after a late night sweating it out under the lamp-post.

  14. DrLoser says:

    No you wish the 15million number was a Lie there was a Debian conf presentation about 2 years back where the Munich lead mentioned what the mix of ages of hardware was.

    Cite it, oiaohm. I’m asking for the Math. You are providing nothing.

    And once you’ve cited it, I assume we can delve into the actual Inventory. Because, without the Inventory, the Costing is … I never claimed it was a lie … a completely arbitrary number pulled out of thin air.

  15. oiaohm says:

    None. They buy companies with pre-existing “solutions” or outright steal what they use. Much worse than Microsoft of the ’90s. Fuschia also means that Chromebooks and cheap Android junk will no longer be Linux.
    Straight up lie Ivan.

    Travis Geiselbrecht while being paid by google was commission to create https://github.com/littlekernel/ that then becomes Fuschia. So the answer is not None its at least 1 that we know of. Fuschia is new branding for old thing.

    Travis Geiselbrecht (NewOS, Danger and BeOS) and Brian Swetland (BeOS).
    Interesting when you read the history. Now something to be aware of is Travis Geiselbrecht has a connection by littlekernel and the Android bootloader to Android. He has no connection to ChromeOS. In fact none of the developers working on Fuschia have any connection to the ChromeOS developers only connections to the Android developers. Yes not one of the 7 Fuschia developers have any connection to the Chrome OS project worse no Fuschia developers are working with Chrome itself.

    Even if you look at Android none of the Fuschia have any connection to Android core.

    Basically the idea that Fuschia is to be a merge between android and chrome groups has no backing in the developers working on the project.

    Fuschia is on going example of BeOS developers experimenting with new OS designs. Fuschia is like Microsoft singularity. A proto type OS that might live or might completely die. Yes if you also look at Fuschia commits its in the 20 percent allowance for own projects at google.

  16. Ivan wrote, “Fuschia also means that Chromebooks and cheap Android junk will no longer be Linux.”

    It’s still not clear the domain of Fuchsia. I can see it working on particular devices where the maker writes drivers for his particular hardware but this thing will totally lack Linux’s ability to run on just about everything. Drivers. If this thing is ever to run on AMD64 and all the gadgets a user can plug into a USB port, someone will have to write an awful lot of new drivers. It would be a bottleneck for any one organization to do it so it needs a large community of supporters. They don’t exist yet and it will take years to do that. It might be much easier to modify Linux to do the weird and wonderful thing Google wants, except for that ancient micro/macro kernel argument. Linux is macro. Fuchsia is micro…

    So, while folks say it’s for “PC”s, that’s a way down the pipe if ever. Linux on AMD64 and ARM has a huge head-start. Google can’t just import Linux code, either. It’s GPLv2 and Fuchsia’s not. Perhaps Google has a better idea for an OS for people on small things (not servers). That’s good. But one can’t assume the concept is in a 21st century state. It’s like 1995 all over again when drivers for every new bit of hardware was an issue. For how many operating systems are makers going to write drivers? They already have Linux, TOOS, MacOS. What’s the benefit for one more? Google, Canonical and a few others who put tremendous effort into dancing around Linux and GPL would be far better off signing up and contributing improvements and expansion of GNU/Linux. It’s pretty decent as is but Google and others could make it even better with a minimum of effort in comparison to reinventing the wheel.

  17. Ivan says:

    Petey: how many OS do you think google has made.

    None. They buy companies with pre-existing “solutions” or outright steal what they use. Much worse than Microsoft of the ’90s. Fuschia also means that Chromebooks and cheap Android junk will no longer be Linux.

    They’re even moving to a BSD-style license. Must suck to be a fan of that Minix clone…

  18. oiaohm says:

    I would say congrats, for finally posting a link, but we were discussing Easterville, you know, a town located in the Canadian province of Manitoba. The City of Kamloops, of which you glorious cite as evidence of a Linux intrusion, is located in the Canadian province of British Columbia.
    They provide a email that you could email them and find out in fact how long recycled PC last. A lot longer than you dougman was claiming.

    we were discussing Easterville
    To be correct we were discussing Easterville school. Yet you provided a link about Easterville general. Will you admit that that link was totally off topic and had place dougman. The fact you have used an Invalid cite is no reason for me to provide my link until you admit your mistake. Why you will not admit you are a idiot otherwise.

  19. dougman says:

    “I found the desktop count”

    Umm Fifi, you already stated this previously and quoted the same link twice.

    http://www3.sd73.bc.ca/content/open-source-education

    I would say congrats, for finally posting a link, but we were discussing Easterville, you know, a town located in the Canadian province of Manitoba. The City of Kamloops, of which you glorious cite as evidence of a Linux intrusion, is located in the Canadian province of British Columbia.

    Oiaohm, this is why you are factually an idiot to the nth degree.

    May you never procreate.

  20. oiaohm says:

    Selling the disc-less machines hard-drives for scrap metal will normally get you enough cash to buy the new servers to run them with new hard-drives 4 times over due to the number of machines a individual server can support using drbl. So if you are getting the second hand machines for nothing you can also get the servers they need for nothing just with careful management.

  21. oiaohm says:

    http://www3.sd73.bc.ca/content/open-source-education
    Found the desktop count.

    3400 Linux disc-less desktops(yes Debian) with 1700 chromebooks in 2016 in district 73 in Canada.
    So these schools have no revenue for IT to speak of, shame. Hand me down computers don’t last but a year or so.
    Read above wait dougman is a idiot so I better explain this.

    The first part normally to fail in a second hard computer. Is the hard-drive. You use drbl place a OS image on server run all the second hand desktop computers off that then you can strip out all their hard-drives. This now extends a computers life from about 6-8 to about 15-17 years. So it fairly much 2002 XP era machines biting the big one now if you stripped the hard-drive out of them and they were quality hardware.

    So there are very particular reason why you see schools in particular areas running Linux. Cheap hardware to get decent life out of drbl+linux does the job. Also using something like drbl means that a computer from one school transferred to another and plugged in has the correct image come up for the school its now at. Why because you get to universally configure them and the software run on the machine is based on the network they are connected to.

    dougman it DrLoser who started the argument that the systems had not be there. So before I have to put up my evidence DrLoser need to put up his or admit he was making baseless statements. Dougman you also showed you don’t know where to look that should be not unexpected a google does not help you find the document I am referencing. Of course by all your recent attacks on me all you know is google Dougman.

  22. dougman wrote, “Hand me down computers don’t last but a year or so.”

    Nonsense. We get many years of use out of them. Typically they are 6-8 years old and they are tough commercial machines discarded by businesses which write them off for a tax-discount. They provide them to CFS by the truckload and CFS cleans, re-installs TOOS and ships them out to schools. e.g. I didn’t have any of them fail where I last worked and we got two shipments. Packaging is interesting. We were on rugged winter roads so CFS just plunked them into large boxes stuffed with broken pieces of styrofoam and they magically arrived, keyboards, monitors, mice and ATX boxes with names like Dell, HP, and a name that escapes me. Our new machines were IBMs in appearance but they were made by Lenovo. Very nice machines but with space for only one or two hard drives. They had dual core AMD64 CPUs and lots of RAM, 4gB ISTR.

  23. dougman says:

    “Computers For Schools will donate to almost any school or library in the Manitoba 20 PCs per annum.”

    So these schools have no revenue for IT to speak of, shame. Hand me down computers don’t last but a year or so.

  24. DrLoser wrote, “Where did you find this miraculous expansion of your hardware base?”, still circling the drain…

    Computers For Schools will donate to almost any school or library in the Manitoba 20 PCs per annum. I was there to receive that number twice. Then 12 PCs arrived from somewhere. No one told me and I didn’t ask. I and my students as an exercise installed GNU/Linux on them. I did let them read the EULA and observe the sluggish behaviour of TOOS on a stinking brand new PC taken fresh out of the box. No one missed TOOS. So, I added 40 CFS and 12 new PCs to the 40 machines already existing in the classrooms. I also donated use of my 10 thin clients while I was there and offered to leave them but that offer was not accepted. Still, with that huge increase in seats at a PC, the workload went way down compared to trying to keep half of the existing PCs running TOOS. Of the 20 machines not working when I arrived, 19 ran XP after re-installation by imaging and one had a dead PSU or hard drive. Limiting factor on PCs at that time was networking and power-outlets. I assembled, begged, stole and bought all the switches, cables and power bars I could to give every classroom that wanted PCs a cluster. The ISP had a government contract to provide access so they were helpful with switches. I was appreciated for the enhanced access to IT, unlike DrLoser’s idiotic responses. One of the main reasons I was hired all over the north was that I could do such magic as well as teach.

  25. dougman wrote, “<500 people sure makes a great impression on setting precedent, wouldn’t you agree?”

    Apples and oranges. The link points to the non-reserve population. There were 500 students at Chemawawin school when I was there. The reserve has about three times as many people as the off-reserve community.

  26. dougman says:

    “dougman its a universal thing about schools around the world in most countries. Having to submit annual reports on what equipment is deployed.”

    “Easterville areas annual reports still mention Linux desktops.”

    Fifi, you just will stuff it up every time, don’t you? Why is it, you never post any conceivable evidence? Because there is none, that’s why.

    http://www.gov.mb.ca/ana/publications/community_profiles/pubs/easterville_2011.pdf

    <500 people sure makes a great impression on setting precedent, wouldn't you agree? I mean, look at the things people do on Friday nights.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/7-charged-in-easterville-beating-death-1.646724

  27. oiaohm says:

    dougman its a universal thing about schools around the world in most countries. Having to submit annual reports on what equipment is deployed.

    So you are just posting as a jackass as normal.

  28. oiaohm says:

    DrLoser
    Really? You have consistently left us with the impression that your last school was under budgetary constraints, Robert.
    Budgetary constraints does not equal bad processes by management they are two separate problems. Bad management given either very little funds or lots of funds will stuff it up every time.

    No you wish the 15million number was a Lie there was a Debian conf presentation about 2 years back where the Munich lead mentioned what the mix of ages of hardware was.

    All these years of claiming that there is such a thing as “Gnu/Linux/Android” — there isn’t, but that has never stopped you — and in three to four years’ time, you’ll be faced with the fact that your silly little toy desktop OS doesn’t even appeal to Google.
    Funny you are desperate Dr Loser. Thinking over 2/3 of google office machines are their own custom version of Ubuntu. Google making this OS is not for what Google uses on the desktop. Attempting to use Google as anti-linux desktop would have some chance if Google was not one of the biggest globally spread deployments of Linux Desktops.

    How’s it going up there?
    Easterville areas annual reports still mention Linux desktops. So most likely going fine. Of course Dr Loser would not know where to go for those reports.

    So what you are being dougman under another name of attempting random attacks without doing any valid homework.

  29. DrLoser says:

    And while on the topic of Fuschia, mentioned down-thread from here: that’s one more huge embarrassment for you, isn’t it, Robert?

    All these years of claiming that there is such a thing as “Gnu/Linux/Android” — there isn’t, but that has never stopped you — and in three to four years’ time, you’ll be faced with the fact that your silly little toy desktop OS doesn’t even appeal to Google.

    I’d spend those years wisely, if I were you. My link will send you to the Repository for Fuschia.

    Read, Modify, Share, Enjoy! It’s probably missing a Pascal compiler. That might very well be your contribution to the future!

  30. DrLoser says:

    Ok. I click on the icon for LO and it starts. It runs. I get work done. I’m happy with the software. If LO gives me problems, I’m not happy with the software. OTOH, if the IT-guys/gals tell us the system will be down for maintenance for 2h this afternoon, I’m unhappy with the system.

    Utterly inadequate, Robert. Apparently you cannot elevate yourself to the intellectual level of the average IT desk-jockey.

    If something doesn’t work, they have no way of telling why it doesn’t work. Could be the software, could be the installation process, could be the network, could be “The Management Protocols,” could be anything.

    I’m going to take your specious and entirely unfounded assertion that nothing ever goes wrong with Linux software on board for the purposes of this argument.

    It doesn’t matter. The end user won’t be able to tell the difference in such cases. The Munich Green Party is lying.

    Which, if you had half a brain, you would have realised was my point all along.

  31. DrLoser says:

    I kindly asked this a while back, of course I never got an answer. So it would be safe to assume zero.

    Let’s be generous, Douglas. I’m sure Robert knows the answer in at least one case — Easterville.

    Now then, Robert. Easterville. Your very own “Munich.”

    How’s it going up there?

  32. DrLoser says:

    We expanded to four times as many machines still with no management problems.

    Really? You have consistently left us with the impression that your last school was under budgetary constraints, Robert.

    Where did you find this miraculous expansion of your hardware base? Under an ice floe, perhaps?

  33. oiaohm says:

    Oh, I’m pretty sure that Munich can run Linux just fine. Any management issues that they suffer from won’t go away by dumping Linux for Windows.
    The report to justify returning to windows has management issue after management issue. So its going to be like using a band-aid on a stab wound and wondering why it not fixed anything.

    Really its a good example why you should not have someone do a assessment who has any interest in selling the product and expect sane advice.

  34. oiaohm says:

    Ivan how many OS do you think google has made.

    Fuchsia is not a new OS either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia Note the reference to Little kernel.
    https://github.com/littlekernel/lk/wiki/Introduction
    That right the kernel that runs in the boot loader under Android is Little Kernel. Goes back to the first version of Android.

    This is kinda why a lot have always looked at android and wondered if it would remain a Linux kernel. This is also why Oracle was so determined to follow up with license enforcement.

    Most of the techspec blog is bogus stuff. Fuchsia is another micro kernel OS those have a long history of being non successful. Even that in theory if they are done right they should be quite secure.

    Really it common sense since google was maintaining little kernel anyhow to push it to the max to see what it could do.

  35. luvr says:

    oiaohm said: “The fact bigger and smaller can successfully deploy Linux and Munich cannot shows pure management issues.”

    Oh, I’m pretty sure that Munich can run Linux just fine. Any management issues that they suffer from won’t go away by dumping Linux for Windows.

    The decision to return to Windows is a purely political one, and makes me wonder just who played along in the dirty game that Microsoft encouraged them to.

  36. Ivan says:

    Linux is so wonderful, even Google is replacing it:

    https://techspecs.blog/blog/2017/2/14/googles-not-so-secret-new-os

  37. dougman wrote, “If this was TRULY the case, you would not need a pension to live on. People would be throwing money at you left and right.”

    I was reasonably well paid but now I’m retired and living on a pension and the goodwill or TLW…

  38. dougman says:

    ” Even schools that used TOOS almost exclusively when I arrived had huge management problems, like no backups, no installation media, not even proof of licensing… let alone dealing with the malware. The last school where I taught had no router, no firewall, just ISP piped to each machine running an obsolete version of TOOS without a journalled file-system… Half the machines would not boot. When I left they were running GNU/Linux on all but two machines in classrooms and there were zero management problems. It just ran properly. We expanded to four times as many machines still with no management problems.”

    If this was TRULY the case, you would not need a pension to live on. People would be throwing money at you left and right.

  39. oiaohm wrote, “Windows is not a magic bullet against management issues.”

    Oh, yes. Even schools that used TOOS almost exclusively when I arrived had huge management problems, like no backups, no installation media, not even proof of licensing… let alone dealing with the malware. The last school where I taught had no router, no firewall, just ISP piped to each machine running an obsolete version of TOOS without a journalled file-system… Half the machines would not boot. When I left they were running GNU/Linux on all but two machines in classrooms and there were zero management problems. It just ran properly. We expanded to four times as many machines still with no management problems.

  40. oiaohm says:

    http://www3.sd73.bc.ca/content/open-source-education
    Found the desktop count.

    3400 Linux disc-less desktops(yes Debian) with 1700 chromebooks in 2016 in district 73 in Canada. So quite a decent size and growing year to year. So much for the idea of nothing. This has been running for over 10 years and they are happy.

    The idea that there are not Linux Desktop deployments is false. There are quite successful ones of many sizes. Some make Munich look absolutely small others make Munich look huge. The fact bigger and smaller can successfully deploy Linux and Munich cannot shows pure management issues. Windows is not a magic bullet against management issues.

  41. oiaohm says:

    I kindly asked this a while back, of course I never got an answer. So it would be safe to assume zero.
    Basically this is Dougman presuming facts without evidence or research. It really did not require more than a few targeted googles to find the Canada school district and the fact they were still employing new staff and running it.

  42. oiaohm says:

    I kindly asked this a while back, of course I never got an answer. So it would be safe to assume zero.
    Any school system not running at least some linux and not willing to threaten complete open source is idiot.
    http://www.cio.com.au/article/333686/nz_school_ditches_microsoft_goes_totally_open_source/

    New Zealand still has complete open source school this works as good negotiation tactic not to have to pay for Microsoft products. Of course Microsoft mandated for free that Microsoft product usage be written into country wide requirements and the link above show how that does not always work.

    http://www.networkworld.com/article/2277594/data-center/school-districts-serve-up-lessons-in-linux.html

    dougman in Canada the keep Microsoft cheep is district 73. You will see new job positions in 2015 and 2016. Yes is server-thin client model based on Debian exactly like Robert talks about all the time. Yes its a complete district of Canada deployment standard.

    So for someone from past or current Canada schools for particular areas the way Robert talks would be status normal.

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_other-mso_mac/word-2016-cant-open-older-doc-files/bc6ebd8f-266f-4c60-a473-8c8b9b07011d

    mal I could not find the one on repair. There are ones around like this where MS Office 2013 and 2016 cannot open what 2010 and before could. So someone sends you an old document you may not be able to open it if you only have MS Office 2016 or 2013. So swapping from Libreoffice to MS Office swaps one list of document incompatibility problems for another. Best option is go middle road of deploy both.

    Also Libreoffice supports master documents stable for large documents. Master documents cannot be transferred to MS Office and work. MS Office master document support is deprecated and totally not recommend to be used because it unstable. So not all Libreoffice documents/templates can be transferred to MS Office because there are unique features in Libreoffice that either 1 MS Office totally does not have or 2 if MS Office has that feature it was never implemented correctly and if you use it you get corrupted documents.

    Yes migrate away from Linux for a lot of cases not going to cause trouble. Migrate completely away from Libreoffice not a sane move. Master documents come in really handy when doing 1000+pages in a document. Some of the procedure guides are that huge.

    Please note it was Munich that required Libreoffice to implement 2 billion chars in a paragraph for particular departments who use a word processor to record meeting notes without ever hitting the enter key. So Munich has a lot of strange usage practices for using a Office suite. So you can expect at least on of the strange usage practices to have trouble with MS Office because it finds one of the defects.

  43. dougman wrote, “it would be safe to assume zero.”

    No, It would not. I found out years later that the first school I ever installed with GNU/Linux still had those ancient machines running. Two other schools probably still have a big fleet running GNU/Linux. They had a large investment and skilled staff involved. One of those is due for a replacement. I don’t know what they intend to use but they did upgrade to the next release of Ubuntu GNU/Linux without any help from me. I think they asked two or three questions over the years but I haven’t heard anything lately.

  44. dougman says:

    “Tell us, Robert, how many of these schools in the North use Linux today?”

    I kindly asked this a while back, of course I never got an answer. So it would be safe to assume zero.

  45. Deaf Spy says:

    When I set up GNU/Linux in schools in the North

    Tell us, Robert, how many of these schools in the North use Linux today?

  46. Deaf Spy says:

    Despite proof that GNU/Linux works for Munich

    This is where you go wrong, Robert. There is no such proof. Users complain of serious issues:
    1. Crashes, printing and display problems.
    2. Lack of features, compared to standard packages.

    The only “proof” are documents, written by these neckbeards and politicians who implemented Linux in Munich. Once you ask the real users, things become ugly.

  47. mal says:

    oiaohm – where is that quote about repairing MS docs with LO – I would like to have that framed 😉

    Ta
    M

  48. ram says:

    The problem is the Linux suppliers don’t pay the bribes and kickbacks demanded by corrupt government officials, and a certain other company most certainly does.
    That German officials are considering switching to a crappy proprietary system says more about systemic government corruption than it says about IT technology.

  49. oiaohm wrote, “Munich is trying to do black and white”.

    Exactly. There was good reason to migrate 80% of machines to GNU/Linux. There isn’t good reason to migrate 100% back to TOOS. I would have much preferred politicians having to pass a test of successfully using GNU/Linux before running for office. That would have made much more sense than jerking around thousands of employees who are getting along just fine with GNU/Linux.

  50. oiaohm says:

    “spending money is not “wasting” money.”

    Spending money can be wasting money. You don’t buy employees sports cars right in most cases because their job does not require it.

    Point is, that little experiment has obviously failed. At least, this time round, they’re aiming to give the various departments a bit of independent choice, instead of foisting unwelcomed rubbish on them for … is it really thirteen years, now?
    Really no the experiment by the reports has not absolutely failed.

    Not all departments of Munich in fact reported complaints. So migrating everyone is not justified by the report.

    Independent choice would not be talking about Migrating everyone to MS Windows and MS Office as the collected data does not back that.

    A system in a library for checking out books that is currently running Limux solution in Munich is not going to be made better by installing Windows and MS Office thinking a system like that does not use Libreoffice now or need any closed source software. Libraries around the world use open source software they joint develop to manage their books that are automated tested on Linux. Yes this is one of those points where you have to ask yourself why am I deploying Windows here as there is absolutely no benefit.

    Real answer is Shades of grey and the Munich is trying to do black and white. Munich operations are that diverse that if you are saying we will run only 1 OS there is somewhere in the operations that is not being serviced correctly.

  51. oiaohm says:

    “The city council has not fully approved to change to Windows,” confirmed Petra Leimer Kastan, a spokeswoman for the office of mayor Dieter Reiter.
    So its not a clear slam dunk.

    The fact they are going back looking at the costs means that the existing system has to at least work to a particular point. Of course a lot of issues listed in the report have nothing to-do with software.

    “More than half are not happy.” If fact of you go and read the Accenture report like the greens did at worst only 30% is unhappy that means 70% are happy or don’t give a rats either way with it comes to the Limux. Now the over 50% unhappy is with the way the IT system for doing things like deploying new systems. Yes quoted out of context to make Linux Desktop sound worse than it is.

    Even more interesting is 15% have had issues with Libreoffice. The big but you do find on Microsoft own support site recommend Libreoffice to open damaged documents MS Office does not want anything to-do with. So what will be the MS Office document failure rate it does have one.

    So lot of Munich debate is false even worse false to even to the documents they cite so called backing themselves.

  52. dougman wrote, “spending money is not “wasting” money.”

    It is when you get no additional benefit and lots of additional problems like endless malware, Patch Tuesday, EULA from Hell, slowing down, re-re-reboots… Munich installed GNU/Linux so they could control their system. If there are any problems they are fixable. Not so with M$ and “partners” running the show. Munich will pay forever for permission to use the hardware they own and with no guarantee that life with their software will not be a living Hell. That’s just a waste.

  53. DrLoser wrote, voluminously, “…explain how you — the serf in question — would be able readily to distinguish between the IT infrastructure and the software in question?”

    Ok. I click on the icon for LO and it starts. It runs. I get work done. I’m happy with the software. If LO gives me problems, I’m not happy with the software. OTOH, if the IT-guys/gals tell us the system will be down for maintenance for 2h this afternoon, I’m unhappy with the system. If I never even have to talk to an IT-guy all year, I’m happy with the system.

    Stuff like that… When I set up GNU/Linux in schools in the North, systems ran all year with few if any problems and no one had to talk to me about it. We used good software and had a good system in place. I’m proud of that, no matter what DrLoser thinks.

  54. DrLoser says:

    From your cite, and just for once it would be nice if you don’t re-quote it as if it were my own words:

    Ditching Linux is not the only key idea in the current council’s IT strategy. As decided on Wednesday, the coalition also wants to set up a “streamlined” IT unit, ideally operating as a city-owned company. Each municipal unit will get to have its own small IT department that will concentrate on its particular needs.

    Admittedly, my emphasis.

    Thing is, I seem to remember that Munich did this with Neckbeards Gmbh. As far as I recall, they allowed the neckbeards to set up their own local company (“locally sourced goods!”) to read, examine, modify and distribute (Blessed Be The Stallman!) the wondrous Templates of which LiMux was mostly composed.

    Bit expensive at €17 million or whatever, but I digress.

    Point is, that little experiment has obviously failed. At least, this time round, they’re aiming to give the various departments a bit of independent choice, instead of foisting unwelcomed rubbish on them for … is it really thirteen years, now?

    Well, it would be, except for the self-admitted fact that the bloody thing didn’t even begin to “work” until about five years after inception.

    Retarded baby elephants grow up faster than this, Robert. And what comes out of their back ends is more nutritious, too.

  55. DrLoser says:

    As council member Florian Roth of the Greens pointed out during Wednesday’s debate, the local authority’s IT organisational structure was to blame. “68.6 percent said they were completely satisfied with the software,” Roth argued.

    Try to imagine, if you will, Robert, that you are a more professional and more highly-skilled person than you (in reality) are. Let us say, a typical desk clerk in a large municipality somewhere in South Germany.

    It’s a stretch, I know. I mean, you couldn’t hold down a data entry job in today’s world, and there’s absolutely no chance that you’d pass the interview. But this is a thought experiment, so let’s run with it, despite the manifest impossibility.

    Now then. Faced with an IT set-up — doesn’t matter which one, you could pick anything at all from the last fifty years or more — that involves the two following things:

    1) The organisational structure of IT.
    2) The various software packages you use, both on your desktop and on various servers.

    … as the downtrodden IT Serf that you are (sadly, incapable of aspiring to be), would you kindly explain how you — the serf in question — would be able readily to distinguish between the IT infrastructure and the software in question?

    I’m going to be totally fair here. I’ll give you a pass on crontab, WiFi setup and system. Not one of those inadequacies is relevant here.

    Do you really wish to claim that there is a totally orthogonal difference between those two areas?

  56. dougman says:

    “They’ve voted to make the plan which will waste $millions. ”

    Pogsey, spending money is not “wasting” money. Does the acumen, “spend money, to make money” ring a bell? I highly doubt it, as you never made enough money to spend in large sums.

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