The Forces Of Evil Still Try To Shut Down LiMux

It’s hard to believe but a dozen years after the decision was made to migrate to GNU/Linux for the IT system of Munich, the dark forces are still trying to reverse the decision. Now, there is a plan afoot to make a plan to reverse the decision four years from now. I kid you not. Will these jokers still be in power then? The next federal election is next year… The next election in Munich is 2020…

Google’s Translation, in part:
“Munich city council wants to back-deal Limux
 
By 2021 the use of Linux as a client system is to be terminated in Munich. Instead it should be completely set to Windows. This is what the governing councilors of CSU and the SPD demand in the Bavarian state capital and could thus seal the end of Limux.”

They can hope that the war in Syria continues. They can hope that Trump encourages them. They can hope that the waves will be still. They can hope that Putin behaves. They can’t go back without tremendous, useless pain. I hope the taxpayers set them straight.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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38 Responses to The Forces Of Evil Still Try To Shut Down LiMux

  1. oiaohm says:

    How do you know 2000 and before Munich only in 2016 logged a complaint when Ubuntu was talking about dropping 32 bit support and even just dropping some other 32 bit cpus. So anyone watching the problem and taken note of what Munich been requesting can see big problems from hardware side.

  2. oiaohm says:

    LOL, you use an article three years old, and one that pushes M$ products, to justify your position?
    dougman the fact the article is 3 years old and the same list of issues exist today. You would not be able to quote a newer document that reverses those. It means you are no where near current. If that article is wrong where is your counter article. Basically put up or shut up time. I have put up a article detailing how you were wrong you have failed at this stage to put up a counter.

    Fact is, Windows 10 runs on any dual core with at least 2 GB of RAM.
    Deaf Spy that is a lie. There are many dual core system with 2GB who require drivers that only support up to windows 8.1 to function correctly. You do need to check that the motherboard supports windows 10 or you can be having random lockups to worse cpu fan stopped and cpu dead due to overheating cause windows 10 applied wrong power management driver. Linux supports more x86 duel core motherboards than Windows 10 does.

    “Aging equipment” – hey, wasn’t Linux the one OS that allowed users to use their old equipment, saving the from the necessity to update every release cycle, like Android / Linux does? Ops…
    Allowing aged equipment. Is different to allow unsupported or partly supported equipment. You can have 2 30 year old printers one works perfectly because it has full OS support the other plays up crashes and does all kinds of stupid thing because it driver was only ever party created.

    Please note what I just said 30 years old. Munich is still using printers that they bought to work with Windows NT 4. Not all those printers are properly Linux compatible and most will not have windows 10 drivers at all. So deploying windows 10 will at long last force them to spend money they should have.

    Munich IT is the defection of a hoarder. So some of the LiMux desktop machines today where bought back in 2000 or before for Windows NT 4.
    It is absolutely not clear whether they will need to upgrade their “aging equipment”…
    This is absolutely clear there would have to be some or service reduction.

    This is what will make the process of migrating to Windows 10 a bit more expensive. But some of the crashes are from running hard-drives older than 6 years old and printers absolutely historic that are worn out.

    Yes Linux allows you to run hardware out to it serviceable life. But Linux is not magic every bit of hardware has point that it worn out once the hardware at that point it has to be replaced or it going to cause issues like crashes.

    The other locations running Linux as a desktop stable have had polices of serviceable life. Even running windows business not having a serviceable life objectives on printers will cause trouble. So this is internal organisation operation issues.

    Munich may have been broken, but the “fix” that was chosen then took on all the blame for whatever was wrong.
    Wizard Emeritus this is exactly right. So LiMux is taken blame for a lot things that be the system running windows or running Linux those actions cause instability. Changing the OS don’t fix those problems. Changing organisational internal operations over how IT hardware is deprecated and replaced will be critical to make Munich stable. If that does not happen and its like Windows 2000/NT to LiMux was handled Windows 10 in a few years is going to have the same set of complaints all over again.

    useless neckbeards
    Is kinda wrong. Issue in Munich is the penny pinches IT stuff can only do stuff they have the budget and the money to-do. Not enough money allocated for hardware replacement is a fatal condition to a IT system. If you read the Munich budgets and compare them to the French and Malaysian of course scaling it back there is no where near the money for hardware replacement as there should have been this goes all back to their first IT deployment.

  3. Deaf Spy says:

    You think machines designed to replace NT in the era of XP had 2gB RAM in Munich?

    Irrelevant.

    You have to explain how exactly is “archaic organization” the reason for “crashes, display and printing errors”.

  4. Deaf Spy wrote, “Windows 10 runs on any dual core with at least 2 GB of RAM”.

    You think machines designed to replace NT in the era of XP had 2gB RAM in Munich? HAHAHA!

  5. Deaf Spy says:

    Most of the IT problems of Munich are not due to GNU/Linux at all but archaic organization and aging equipment

    How exactly is “archaic organization” the reason for “crashes, display and printing errors”

    “Aging equipment” – hey, wasn’t Linux the one OS that allowed users to use their old equipment, saving the from the necessity to update every release cycle, like Android / Linux does? Ops…

    Fact is, Windows 10 runs on any dual core with at least 2 GB of RAM. That is more than fine to run Windows 10 and MSO. It is absolutely not clear whether they will need to upgrade their “aging equipment”…

  6. Deaf Spy wrote, “Minuch have already their thick clients, which run LO.”

    Most of the IT problems of Munich are not due to GNU/Linux at all but archaic organization and aging equipment. They will have to replace that aging equipment to enjoy what M$ has to offer.

  7. Deaf Spy says:

    What’s the will and effort to buy 15000 thick clients running TOOS, oh yes, and a few servers to “manage” them?

    And why ever do that to start with, oh Sage of the Northern Wilderness?

    Minuch have already their thick clients, which run LO. They even have their servers running their e-mail and hosting their files, LDAP, and perhaps some other services. Meaning, the hardware is already there.

    What Munich is likely to do is simply go for Office 365 and never look back. For the costs of the salaries of the bunch of useless neckbeards they now employ to hack LiMux together, they will get secure and reliable service, with both online (thin client) and offline (desktop) access to their documents and software. They can even integrate Office 365 with whatever on-premises user authentication service they have and reduce the time needed to setup the new environment. They can even transfer all their existing e-mails via IMAP or POP3.

    You are totally clueless about how modern IT is done, Robert. You are stuck hopelessly in the past.

  8. Deaf Spy says:

    There haven’t been any massive problems

    says Robert.

    Actual users, or should I say victims of LiMux, say:
    the efficiency and productivity of the POR-supported workplaces has decreased noticeably
    and
    LiMux and LibreOffice are “far behind the current technical possibilities of established standard solutions

    Go in Munich, Robert, and inspire these users!

  9. The Wiz wrote, “suppress the complaints and bury the massive problems that we now know have plagued Munich’s LiMux implementation all during its 14 year in existence, the abandonment of that experiment may now be becoming a reality.”

    There haven’t been any massive problems. Munich has been functional even during the transition.

  10. Wizard Emeritus says:

    The old news really doesn’t matter, nor does the experiences of other municipalities. Munich may have been broken, but the “fix” that was chosen then took on all the blame for whatever was wrong. Now the political cover is gone, and they will make their own choices.

    “Really where is Munich going to get the budget from to-do the conversion in the first place. Cutting services?”

    If they want to get the change done, they will find the money.

  11. dougman says:

    “Not a valid idea.
    http://windowsitpro.com/hardware/7-reasons-why-chromebooks-arent-acceptable-business-use

    LOL, you use an article three years old, and one that pushes M$ products, to justify your position?

  12. oiaohm says:

    The reality is that all this technical minutae isn’t going to make all of the bad experiences that the Munich users had over the past 10 years with LiMux go away. Assuming that the vote goes as expected, the process of bringing Munic IT back to normalcy will begin.
    LOL Wizard Emeritus lets say we go back before Munich deployed Linux were their operations working correct the answer was no.

    So normality for Munich is broken. Has been broken for a very long time. IBM and HP both did not numbers on how much it should cost to migrate to Linux. Munich spent 1/10 of that. When Munich deployed Windows NT 4.0 they spent less than 1/3 of what was expected.

    Not working/crashing printers at Munich start back in when they were running Windows before they even though of the idea of using Linux. It was one of the thing that changing to Linux was meant to start addressing by freeing up money for printer hardware replacement.

    Really it pays to go back and read the report justifying the change to LiMux and notice the fault list is basically identical.

    So is the past 10 years any different it what it would have been I would say most likely no. Linux is not a magic cure for bad hardware selections and lack of budget.

    The idea of using Windows has anything to-do with normalcy is kinda wrong when you look are the large French and Malaysian. Is this change going to implement a unsupported hardware disposal policy or is Munich going to keep on doing what they have been stretching hardware out to the point it fails to turn on and having operation disruptions because of it.

    Really where is Munich going to get the budget from to-do the conversion in the first place. Cutting services?

  13. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” Munich did the right thing by escaping Wintel. It is pure corruption or incompetence to cause Munich to return to the fold of the tyrant.”

    What is really about to happen, barring any last minute change, was bound to happen the minute the Mayor Uhde retired. Once there was no one with power left to suppress the complaints and bury the massive problems that we now know have plagued Munich’s LiMux implementation all during its 14 year in existence, the abandonment of that experiment may now be becoming a reality.

    And all your whining about ebil Microsoft/Intel will change exactly nothing. I for one wish them luck. As someone who has participated in my share of major enterprise level transitions in my career, I know that they will need a bit of it.

  14. The Wiz wrote, “back to normalcy will begin”.

    Monopoly in IT is not normal. It is an aberration brought on by greed and collusion between IBM, Intel and M$. It has never been about benefiting the users. Hints: permission to use the PC you own should not cost what the market will bear and a little chip of silicon and aluminium cranked out by the millions does not cost $1000, but for years M$ and Intel got away with that because various governments were dependent on Wintel and went along with the crime. Suppose Ford required customers to agree to a EULA forbidding anything but Ford oil, tires, batteries, engines, replacement parts, service… How long would they be in business with competitors eating their lunch? M$ got away with that because they drove competition from the market by every trick in the book and some new ones they wrote while shipping a garbage product that would not even idle let alone perform. Munich did the right thing by escaping Wintel. It is pure corruption or incompetence to cause Munich to return to the fold of the tyrant.

  15. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The reality is Munich may have the worst timing ever. ”

    The reality is that all this technical minutae isn’t going to make all of the bad experiences that the Munich users had over the past 10 years with LiMux go away. Assuming that the vote goes as expected, the process of bringing Munic IT back to normalcy will begin.

  16. oiaohm says:

    https://solus-project.com/2017/01/18/adopting-flatpak-to-reassemble-third-party-applications/

    The reality is Munich may have the worst timing ever. We are starting to see distributions get rid of the idea of a back-ports repositories and addon repositories using the their own unique package format. Instead putting in plans to migrate to flatpak. Then you have KDE and Gnome both talking about directly releasing applications in flatpak format.

    The 500000+ deployments had not been attempting to install deb and the like to install newer version of applications on older distributions but instead using appimage.

    At this point things get very interesting. flatpak and appimage do the same role and flatpak is looking like it going to have a lot of upstream support.

    Now printers interesting enough both the French and Malaysian where you need to dispose of all printers that are not properly supported by your current OS or have productivity harm. Munich some cases of over penny pinching causing problems. Now when you upgrade to windows 10 there will be printers that also should be put in the bin to prevent them disrupting productivity. So if they are not replacing printers and they deploy windows 10 they will still have the on going nightmare of printers disrupting productivity. Some issues are OS neutral incompatible printers is one of those things.

  17. oiaohm says:

    dougman
    That’s tech is so old, 15000 chromebooks and a few replicated repository servers is all they need.
    Not a valid idea.
    http://windowsitpro.com/hardware/7-reasons-why-chromebooks-arent-acceptable-business-use
    The fault is no where near new. The issue is a government cannot place data on a overseas government server in many cases. Chromebooks cloud connection that has been known since 2014 and before. Rules out a huge number of usage cases.

    Of course this does not rule out doing chromiumos on general laptops to use your own servers other than the overhead.

  18. dougman says:

    “What’s the will and effort to buy 15000 thick clients running TOOS, oh yes, and a few servers to “manage” them?”

    That’s tech is so old, 15000 chromebooks and a few replicated repository servers is all they need.

  19. Deaf Spy wrote, “FLOSS on desktop doesn’t work for people.”

    Not obvious at all. People keep using it and more continue. Notice that GNU/Linux share keeps rising even though production of legacy PCs drops. ie. PCs are still being converted. That takes will and effort.

    What’s the will and effort to buy 15000 thick clients running TOOS, oh yes, and a few servers to “manage” them?

  20. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy. There is a problem here. Can you explain why French and Malaysian government have not had the same problem.

    The report showed a failure in Munich to do a set of key things the French and Malaysian solutions did do. Please note Munich is less than a 20000 deployment both the French and Malaysian exceed 500000 each.

  21. Deaf Spy says:

    Back to LuMix:

    Then a report commissioned by the council noted:

    The city’s human resources department (POR) is particularly critical of LiMux, saying that since 2006 when the POR started using LiMux and OpenOffice, later switching to LibreOffice, that “the efficiency and productivity of the POR-supported workplaces has decreased noticeably” – referencing crashes, display and printing errors.
    “Even 10 years after the start of the LiMuX migration, the users and users of the POR are dissatisfied,” says the letter, claiming that, even after updates, LiMux and LibreOffice are “far behind the current technical possibilities of established standard solutions”

    (emphasis mine)

    Quite evidently, Robert, FLOSS on desktop doesn’t work for people. I’ve been telling you about the productivity modern office packages give people. See now by yourself that the world needs productivity.

  22. The Wiz wrote, “If this bozo can’t meet the evidence requirements of the court, by providing in the exact infringing lines of code, his case dies and remains dead.”

    He’s used to using Git. The court doesn’t get that. It’s a simple matter to pull the source code. The hard part is certifying the authourship for each and every line. That is a voluminous document which could take years for a court to analyze by shuffling paper. This is one of the places copyright law fails, doing things by paper which are not done by paper in the real world. In effect, the documents do not exist, just a long list of changes made since day one. For practical purpose that’s useless but that’s what the lawyers demand.

  23. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Christoff is doing fine. ”

    Relly? but a reading of the results of last august’s case in

    “https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/15/vmware_survives_gpl_breach_case_but_plaintiff_promises_appeal/”

    Does not look very good for Mr. Christolph. If this bozo can’t meet the evidence requirements of the court, by providing in the exact infringing lines of code, his case dies and remains dead.

  24. DrLoser wrote, of Limux, “No wonder every other European municipal government has totally ignored this worthless effort.”

    Au contraire, French Parliament, French police, 1K Italian schools, etc. are loving GNU/Linux as I do.

    “Hundreds of schools in the Italian province of Bolzano have replaced Windows XP with Linux. 6,000 students are using the operating system Linux from 12 September, 2005. About 40 IT professionals set-up the Debian based Linux distribution on 2,460 PCs during July and August.”

    Gotta love it.

  25. DrLoser wrote, “How is Christian Hellwig doing with his pretty little suit against VMware?”

    Christoff is doing fine. The court did not accept references to Git so he will have to produce more source code. The court has not ruled on the merits but the case has merits.

  26. DrLoser says:

    Ah, yes, that cite of yours, Pog. The man is evidently in love with Accenture.
    We all, every single professional, in the field of Software Engineering, absolutely adore Accenture.
    Because Accenture, first and foremost, puts everybody else’s interest before naked violent profit.
    No. Wait.
    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  27. DrLoser says:

    It’s not clear at all that the forces of evil can pull this off.

    Ignoring the hyperbolic “forces of evil” thing, Bobby, it’s pretty clear that a combination of the CSU and the SPD — a fairly formidable political combination as far as the Munich electorate goes, and I defy you to come up with a coalition of even 5% that gives a rat’s ass either way — You lose.
    Perhaps you should have spent more time writing templates to support the neckbeards on the public tit. You were never really qualified to do so, but then again, neither were they.
    Welcome to reality, friend.

  28. DrLoser says:

    The Munich “experiment” is dying on its feet, isn’t it, Robert?
    Just admit that and move on. There are more important issues, even in Germany, to address.
    Tell us all. How is Christian Hellwig doing with his pretty little suit against VMware?
    Not at all well, I would think.

  29. DrLoser says:

    You’re getting crazier in your old age, Bob.

    I don’t think so, Ivan.
    I just think he’s letting his petticoats show.

  30. DrLoser says:

    I’m still slightly surprised that “LiMux” is a thing.
    What sort of thing is it Robert?
    &#euro;Several million spent to no effect. A pointless and very expensive port between MS Office templates and (choose –carefully) one or other xLOSS Office template?
    No wonder every other European municipal government has totally ignored this worthless effort.

  31. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Careful dougman, comments like that could get you banned! Free speech is (apparently) not for all ..”

    But Off topic trolling (which is all that this is) should be dealt with accordingly. However since Robert Pogson has chosen not to curate his blog, he will get to deal with the consequences.

  32. dougman says:

    “You’re getting crazier in your old age, Bob.”

    It’s the start of dementia for sure.

    Pogsey been drinking that Kool-aid for so long, that he still thinks Gates and Intel are “creep crawly” lurking under the rocks in his driveway. He rather spend his pension on Chinese junk to appease TLW or the Gods, I have no figured that one out yet.

  33. Ivan says:

    It’s just awkward to do that.

    It’s awkward to navigate a menu to open an attachment in Excel, Word, Powerpoint, or OneNote but not awkward to cut and paste or save an attachment, open the program you want to open the attachment with, open the file menu, then navigate to where you saved the attachment?

    You’re getting crazier in your old age, Bob.

  34. dougman says:

    How are people that want to use Microsoft software, a “forces of evil” exactly? I mean, Hitler, without a doubt was evil, Mao and Stalin were evil as well, so using your faulty logic once again, the notion that Microsoft equates to Hitler, sets with you reasonably well right?

    It appears that you despise anyone that makes a lot of money, which falls in line with someone that follows the Socialist agenda.

  35. Deaf Spy wrote, “The article is clear: lack of political support kills LiMux. In other words, only authoritarian power can keep LiMux alive.”

    I don’t think this is about political support but political attack. It’s not clear at all that the forces of evil can pull this off. You’ll notice there’s no mention of the cost… That will be a factor. As for integrating e-mail and LO, why bother? I can download attachments with my browser, copy and paste, etc. What more integration would you want from two such disparate functions. It’s like asking Cadillace why they don’t bolt their units onto tractors. It’s just awkward to do that.

  36. Deaf Spy says:

    Well, obviously LiMux simply didn’t work well. No surprise, considering that LO and Thunderbird provide exactly zero integration with one another, that the core of the OS is forked, and everything is one big mess.

    The article is clear: lack of political support kills LiMux. In other words, only authoritarian power can keep LiMux alive. Actual users want something that actually works.

  37. YY says:

    Careful dougman, comments like that could get you banned! Free speech is (apparently) not for all ..

  38. dougman says:

    Better still, lets reverse the turd-tide of Muslims in Europe, and just deport them all en masse.

    The majority of Europeans would agree.

    https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert/comment/what-do-europeans-think-about-muslim-immigration

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