2017 And The FUD Still Flows

“No compelling need…
 
Lack of compatibility…
 
The Linux user base is tiny…
 
Even Google can’t promote it for PCs. Google Chrome OS, a Linux-based desktop operating system, isn’t widely used.”
 
See Alexander: Here’s why free Linux won’t take over PCs in 2017
Well, here it is 2017 and folks are still trotting out the arguments against GNU/Linux they were using fifteen years ago. They were partially true then but not at all today:

  • Malware, cost of maintenance, cost of licensing, security, Freedom to use computers as people see fit, etc. are still compelling reasons to migrate to GNU/Linux on desktops and servers.
  • Lack of compatibility is not an issue today. I have nothing in my home that’s TOOS-only and it’s been years since I’ve seen such a product anywhere. I know software exists that only runs on TOOS but there is plenty of great useful software for GNU/Linux. OTOH there are billions of ARMed, SPARCed and MIPSed processors around which can’t run TOOS…
  • The user-base of GNU/Linux is huge today. The user-base of Android/Linux is astronomical. Fifteen years ago they were way less than 1% of users. Today, countries like Uruguay have way over 10% using GNU/Linux because the government has wisely promoted GNU/Linux in schools. If that argument fails in Uruguay, it can fail anywhere in 2017.
  • Google’s Chrome OS is doing fine. It’s a percent globally and over 4% in USA.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.

This entry was posted in Linux in Education, politics, technology and tagged , , , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

71 Responses to 2017 And The FUD Still Flows

  1. Deaf Spy says:

    A newer machine would be no problem.

    Wait, weren’t Linux the one that allowed to use all your hardware and didn’t for force you to upgrade? I guess not.

    Pathetic.

  2. Deaf Spy wrote, “you can’t configure audio over thin-client. Laughable.”

    Of course, that’s nonsense. I’ve done that many times. However, the particular thin client I had had very flaky audio from VIA and it was unsupported and old. A newer machine would be no problem. I could do it with Odroid-C2, for instance, but we are running that as a thick client so far. There are many techniques and I’ve used ESD, ALSA over the network and streaming to VLC or such. Oh, yes, you can also share the original file over NFS/SSH and play it locally… On a gigabit/s LAN it’s pretty smooth.

  3. Deaf Spy says:

    You can’t persuade TLW to abandon Intel and go for ARM. Fact. She is having idling cores and wastes power. Fact.

    And you can’t configure audio over thin-client. Laughable. No sound. Is that the right way do IT, Robert? 🙂

  4. Deaf Spy wrote, “You can’t persuade TLW to abandon Intel and go for ARM. Fact. You can’t persuade her to use only thin clients. Fact.”

    TLW hadn’t used Intel for years before she got the notebook. She didn’t get the notebook because she wanted Intel but because she had smashed her tablet that ran on ARM. She also used a thin client running off Beast for years with no complaint except audio. She didn’t need audio to do her work so that was no problem. She has loved that she can scan and upload to our local FTP server.

  5. Deaf Spy says:

    I don’t care that you can configure a multi-functional printer or setup a router. Not relevant.

    You can’t persuade TLW to abandon Intel and go for ARM. Fact. You can’t persuade her to use only thin clients. Fact.

    You can keep preaching that people don’t need Intel, don’t need idle cores, blah-blah, yackety-smackety, but people and TLW in particular don’t seem to care.

  6. Deaf Spy wrote, “Robert can’t influence the IT at his house. The only way to replace what TLW uses is to have her break it, and then sneak something yucky like C2 before a friend of hers opens her eyes and gives her a really usable computer.”

    I did everything here in IT except the notebook, copper wiring and the last remaining Atom running here. The gigabit switch, Beast, obviously, Odroid-C2 and the OS on the notebook are all mine. I guess I’m the guy that made the multi-function printer work too. So, Deaf Spy is deaf, blind and ignorant.

  7. For the record. I don’t think a guest has ever been denied WiFi access at our house. We have a poster up with the pre-shared key and it just works. The new access point is much faster than the old one. I just have to get an authorized member of the family to bolt it to the wall centrally to give even better coverage. Download speeds now exceed what we were getting wired through the old router so guests should be pleased. Nothing had to be done with “firmware”.

  8. kurkosdr says:

    Semi-related: Why I like xkcd:

    http://xkcd.com/1785/
    http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wifi.png

    Xkcd may not always be funny like a written-for-newspaper comic strip such as Dilbert is, but when it is funny, it is hilarious. This should be the best answer to all you folks who think your two-bit software soapboxism has any measurable impact on anything else other than making your own lives harder.

    Also:
    https://xkcd.com/456/
    https://xkcd.com/963/

  9. Deaf Spy says:

    The notebook is used on the dining room table or her lap in front of the TV, mostly playing YouTube or worshipping Trump…

    Obviously, TLW is a person with quite some sense.

    Case closed. Robert can’t influence the IT at his house. The only way to replace what TLW uses is to have her break it, and then sneak something yucky like C2 before a friend of hers opens her eyes and gives her a really usable computer.

    In other words, Robert, when it comes to IT, you are reduced to Fifi.

  10. dougman wrote, “What sort of smartphone and tablet?”

    One was the latest BlackBerry thing, 10something. The others were Android/Linux devices.

  11. dougman says:

    What sort of smartphone and tablet?

  12. Deaf Spy wrote, “like TLW, who does most of her work on the 8-core Intel beast, wasting energy with idling cores.
     
    You can’t sell ARM and thin clients to TLW, how can you expect any of us to buy that?”

    TLW uses the notebook or the Odroid-C2 only a tiny percentage of her time using IT. She has a smartphone, a tablet and the notebook besides. Odroid-C2 is ARMed and she does most of her desktop work there because it has an associated flat spot for her papers, a scanner/fax/printer MFP, and her filing cabinets. The notebook is used on the dining room table or her lap in front of the TV, mostly playing YouTube or worshipping Trump…

  13. Deaf Spy wrote, “Billions of people use ARM on their smartphones, but do most of their IT on x86.”

    Billions do most of their IT on their smartphones. I have a very IT-aware bunch of acquaintances. When they visit in numbers up to about 50 bodies, there are dozens of smartphones checking weather, pix, websites, making reservations, phoning home or video-conferencing and no one has asked to use a legacy PC to do any of those things ISTR. We have 3 PC-seats and none have ever been used by visitors. Who needs a legacy PC for the vast majority of IT?

  14. Deaf Spy says:

    I have a windows 10 insider version here where you can look at what they did

    Yeah, yeah, you have the source code, too. Care to show me one feedback you made on this particular built version?

    Shut up, liar.

  15. Deaf Spy says:

    If billions of people are using low-powered ARMed devices and getting real IT done

    Billions of people use ARM on their smartphones, but do most of their IT on x86. Just like TLW, who does most of her work on the 8-core Intel beast, wasting energy with idling cores.

    You can’t sell ARM and thin clients to TLW, how can you expect any of us to buy that?

  16. dougman wrote, “Chromebooks have ARM models available”.

    I am aware of that but they are processors very similar to smartphones: limited RAM, limited caches, limited networking and storage. I need a bit more although a cluster of a few of them would probably work. That throws away any advantage in price. My server board, for instance will have megabytes of cache, DDR4 ECC, and multiple SATA3, USB3, and gigabit/s+ NICs. So it costs 50-100% more. It is more of a server. I don’t need the portability either. My LAN is mostly copper.

  17. dougman says:

    A Chromebook can be used to access a thin-client server. I should know, did it for a numbers of years. Coincidentally Pogsey, Chromebooks have ARM models available.

  18. Deaf Spy wrote, “you, Robert, who insist that the “right way to do IT” is using thin clients and ARMs. You, and only you.”

    That’s quite false:

    • Use of thin clients – Mark Clemence, IT director at Cluttons LLP: “For years we have had to manage complicated PC estates which invariably require much manual attention, often hold data that should be on the network, and applications installed by the user that are probably not licensed. This is no longer necessary. With the maturation of thin client technologies such as Citrix, it is now possible, indeed sensible, to virtualise the desktop and run everything out of a centralised datacentre.”
    • On ARM“ARM is the industry’s leading supplier of microprocessor technology, offering the widest range of microprocessor cores to address the performance, power and cost requirements for almost all application markets. Combining a vibrant ecosystem with over 1,000 partners delivering silicon, development tools and software, and more than 86 billion processors sold, ARM truly is “The Architecture for the Digital World®”.”

    So, open your mind and think for a minute. If billions of people are using low-powered ARMed devices and getting real IT done, what’s wrong with me advocating people do so for good and sufficient reasons?

  19. dougman says:

    Well said, Deaf Guy.

  20. Deaf Spy says:

    TLW knows nothing of Intel/AMD/ARM. She’s a totally non-technical person. She uses IT.

    Exactly, my dear Robert. Just like 99% of all IT users.

    But it is you, Robert, who insist that the “right way to do IT” is using thin clients and ARMs. You, and only you. Me, along with a couple of other guys here, insist that people use what works for them, not for you.

    I had nothing to do with acquiring that boat-anchor

    Robert, if you can’t decide what IT infrastructure is built at your own home, how dare you advise people and businesses alike what “the right way to do IT” is? 🙂

    P.S. Fifi, you are a clueless idiot who pulls lies out of your sun-forsaken orifice, shut up.

  21. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy
    No, idiot, they didn’t. Shut up, Fifi, you’re an incompetent waste of biomass.
    I have a windows 10 insider version here where you can look at what they did.

    Per application power management in Windows 10 is usermode turns power management features on and off when different application are running and stalls applications like cpulimit does. The way the feature has been advertised sounds like they have change the scheduler/power management in kernel but they have not. So basically it cpulimit with upower QoS/pmQoS. To Linux users nothing about per application power management in Windows 10 is new. Sounds new the way Microsoft write up the press release until you look at how they have implemented it and notice hey that implemented like upower QoS with a extra.

    https://upower.freedesktop.org/docs/QoS.html
    Yes the current name of latencyd feature that is about 12 year old current name upower QoS. Some of the reason why particular desktops on Linux perform bad on battery is they are using upower QoS to request faster responses that equals more battery power usage. So Windows 10 new feature when you look at the Linux feature you are not expecting better battery life you should expect worse. Worse battery life as applications using per application power management and are able to start requesting more power consuming set-ups to run faster as what has happened with different Linux desktop environments.

    So basically Deafspy so call new killer feature Linux has had for quite some time and it why at times different Linux distribution loses to windows by 5 to 10 percent when all power management features are turned on other than limiting upower QoS. Yes upower QoS is something advanced Linux users can override per application requests. Some how Microsoft implementation is going to have magic pixie dust to prevent applications requesting faster response times so able to prevent implementing per application power management for consuming the battery. The answer is Windows 10 does not have any magic pixie dust to-do this.

    There is always this problem when ever Windows is adding a feature that it has not had before there is always the foolish presume its a feature that Linux has not had for years without checking anything. Per application power management is something Linux has had for quite a while.

    The worse part is when its like per application power management that turns out to cause worse outcomes then Microsoft supporting idiots go pushing it as a positive feature and then end users end up disappointed when the gains they are promised never come.

  22. dougman wrote, “TLW doesn’t know much of anything, according to you. So condescending, eh?”

    Quite to the contrary, we married because we were opposites. She can keep track of bank accounts, property, shopping, buying and selling, thousands of people, their faces, their ancestry, marital status, relatives, business/employment, value of their home, the names of their kids and their birthdates and all those phone numbers. I on the other hand deal much better with machines, making stuff and digging holes so we have a division of labour. One is not the boss of the other. It’s a partnership. She wouldn’t think of telling me what processor to buy and I wouldn’t think to tell her not to go to so-and-so’s birthday/anniversary/shower party to schmooze/network/stuff she does. I do go along sometimes for the food but I keep meeting people I don’t know even though they know me… So, we’re both happy and having fun our way.

  23. dougman wrote, “if someone “gifted” TLW a Chromebook, she would most certainly use it. Pogsey, would just be “cucked” and told to be quiet, go outside and plant some trees or something.”

    No. TLW would ask for access to her decades of accumulated files… I’m sure there would be a means of accessing them from a ChromeBook but if I don’t know the method, I’m sure she wouldn’t. She has mostly text and spreadsheet documents, and images, lots of images and a few videos. Our upload bandwidth is a fraction of our download bandwidth. So, she’s cool with sending a few images off to FaceBook but I doubt she would have any patience for spending days uploading stuff to Google. I suppose I could put up a Chrome OS virtual machine and play around with it but that’s not my plan and no, she doesn’t always get her way when she tells me what to do/not to do. Hence, a few extra trees in the yard…

    I’ll tell you a secret about TLW. She’s a bit mathematically challenged. She weighs the merit of a tree by how many leaves it sheds. So, in her eyes fruit trees are a negative because leaves will fall and clutter her yard. So, she’s planted a whole bunch of conifers because she figures they will never drop their leaves… So, if she doesn’t even understand trees, leaves and Nature, she sure as Hell isn’t going to buy a ChromeBook which won’t do things the same way as she’s been used to, stuff she learned from M$, if you can believe, like clicking on icons and opening local files and printing things and uploading files to FaceBook. It took her decades to learn the “desktop” regime of computing. She’s too old to tear that up or to add another playbook to please Google or dougman.

    e.g. We have a scanner that sends files to the FTP server named time-and-date.tmp and tries to rename them on the server to .pdf. She could not understand that and she had trouble sending .tmp files by e-mail to her TOOS-using friends, so I had to give “anonymous” permission to rename files on the FTP server. I know how you love FTP and how horrifying such a concept must be but that’s the world in which I live with TLW. She’s not the boss. She’s a very needy customer.

  24. dougman says:

    “If you force TLW to use processes on the server via a terminal to access her files there, then you are totally incompetent.”

    I am most certain, if someone “gifted” TLW a Chromebook, she would most certainly use it. Pogsey, would just be “cucked” and told to be quiet, go outside and plant some trees or something.

  25. dougman says:

    Wow Pogsey, TLW doesn’t know much of anything, according to you. So condescending, eh?

  26. Deaf Spy is wrong on all four points. That could be some kind of record. Usually trolls like to hide behind some shred of Truth:

    1. TLW knows nothing of Intel/AMD/ARM. She’s a totally non-technical person. She uses IT. She doesn’t have any understanding of it.
    2. I had nothing to do with acquiring that boat-anchor. It was a donation from a friend of TLW. We have two other Intel CPUs in slow old clients but they were acquired a decade ago when I was teaching in the North and I had nothing to do with acquiring them either. I am actively acquiring ARMed processors. I will likely buy 3 or 4 this year.
    3. TLW knows nothing of thin/thick clients. She has no preference. She just cares what works. If running a process on the server speeds things up she will be cool with that. There are many situations where that would be so, like applications heavy on disc I/O and light on graphics. The process on the server could do the I/O to the RAID faster than the process on the client. Then the transmission of the window to the client at gigabit/s speeds may be snappy. I’ve done this many times. It works. Because it doesn’t sell licences for M$ doesn’t make me incompetent to implement such a scheme. It’s just wise use of a true multitasking networked operating system.
    4. TLW doesn’t know anything about cores and energy except the power bill. She did not choose this technology, just accepted it. So, she’s not choosing to waste cores/energy but she does. That will change when she finishes off this notebook and I’ve replaced the other Intel clients.
  27. Deaf Spy says:

    Deaf Spy funny enough is windows does it the same way with NT equal to stop signals because with windows 10 they have not in fact implemented the per application power management in the scheduler but is in a service

    No, idiot, they didn’t. Shut up, Fifi, you’re an incompetent waste of biomass.

  28. oiaohm says:

    https://events.linuxfoundation.org/images/stories/pdf/lcna_co2012_wysocki.pdf
    Deaf Spy really read this and notice by 2012 the Linux kernel has a autosleep feature that can be activated to aggressively save power without effecting performance very much. Guess what debian, ubuntu…. don’t ship with the feature on.

    So by 2013 Linux systems with power management on and the system did not have some horible driver that was not doing power management properly the difference between windows and linux power usage had disappeared. By 2016 items like Nvidia drivers not doing laptop power management correctly had disappeared.

    Yes for 4 plus years people have being going on about a fault that basically does not exist for advance users who turn power management stuff on or been a issue with particular bits of hardware. Why is autosleep not on by default you have devices that when put to sleep don’t wake up again. This happens under windows or Linux.

    You have choice support the most hardware running stable or have effective battery usage you cannot choose both under Windows or Linux. Reality of quirky hardware.

    Robert, if it were Fifi to come up with CPULimit, I would get it. Fifi is an idiot, as everyone on the Internet already knows. But you…
    Deaf Spy. I think you have Deaf in you handle because you admit you don’t listen to anyone or check out your fact properly before commenting so are a bigger idiot than me.

  29. oiaohm says:

    “The control of the used CPU amount is done sending SIGSTOP and SIGCONT POSIX signals to processes”
    To compare this to a scheduler with power-saving component to priority management is, hm, to put it mildly, a demonstration of stupidity and ignorance.

    Deaf Spy funny enough is windows does it the same way with NT equal to stop signals because with windows 10 they have not in fact implemented the per application power management in the scheduler but is in a service.

    So you just demoed you stupidity Robert example matches how Windows 10 implements it.

  30. Deaf Spy says:

    Thin clients are … all about choice …

    Facts are:
    1. TLW refuses to abandon Intel.
    2. Robert keeps getting new Intel-based hardware at home.
    3. TLW prefers fat clients to thin-clients, and no, having files on a server doesn’t equal thin clients. If you force TLW to use processes on the server via a terminal to access her files there, then you are totally incompetent.
    4. TLW wastes cores and energy in her operations.

    Bad, Robert, bad…

  31. Deaf Spy says:

    Robert, if it were Fifi to come up with CPULimit, I would get it. Fifi is an idiot, as everyone on the Internet already knows. But you…

    “The control of the used CPU amount is done sending SIGSTOP and SIGCONT POSIX signals to processes”
    To compare this to a scheduler with power-saving component to priority management is, hm, to put it mildly, a demonstration of stupidity and ignorance.

  32. oiaohm says:

    Android kernel had per application dynamic throttling features before 2010 it was 2010 when it was being talking about being mainlined. Microsoft is basically in power management design 6 years behind android and about 1 year behind the Linux kernel.

    So why does Windows in power management tests perform better in most cases. The reality is fresh install of Linux most power management features are turned off so it performs badly. Of course there are rare distributions like MX-16(yes this is a GNU/Linux) that ship with power management features on that fail to install on more machines but in power usage tests matches or beats windows.

    So the arguement that Windows power management is better is mostly FUD. Windows has better defaults than most Linux distributions this is not all Linux Distributions but the Windows kernel is lacking power management features Linux kernel has from Android and other places so those features cannot be turned on under Windows yet even if you want to use them.

    So this is another classic why not to use Linux arguement biting the dust.

  33. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy you are a idiot. Did you know as you increase number of cores you increase required ram value. This is true for Linux and Windows.

    Windows 10 works nicely on a lowly 2-core CPU, with 2GB of RAM. Reality is so does Android.

    https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/android-raspberry-pi/
    Current version of Android runs on a raspberry PI 3 with only 1G of ram. There are other arm systems out there that turn over Android quite fine with 1G or ram and only 2-core system in fact better than the raspberry PI 3 that is a quad core. Yes ram to core ratio is kinda critical you can improve raspberry PI 3 operation running Android by in fact disabling 2 cores.

    –Top-notch Android smartphones come with 6-8 core CPUs, 4 Gigs of RAM–
    Entry level Android smart phones still exist 2 core CPU with 1 g of ram current Android. They are hard to find. Just like finding a Windows computer on sale that is only 2 core with 2G of ram.

    –No one but you calls Android “Linux”–
    That is not true you find Google developers at different Linux kernel development presentation referring to Android as Linux.

    –And not only that, my uzo-loving mate. Windows 10 is about to get per-app dynamic throttling features to further improve battery-life. It is very likely we see this in 2017.–
    This is what has closed the gap.

    https://lwn.net/Articles/400465/
    The reality is per-app dynamic throttling features landed for Linux in 2016 based around cgroups but was planed in 2010. So we have interesting case of some hardware dependant power management features not being turned on and Linux kernel has implemented some features Microsoft is only talking about for 2017 in 2016 that level things up quite a bit.

    So try again but with some valid points this time.

  34. Deaf Spy wrote, “Thin-clients and one “Beast” to rule them all.”

    Thin clients are an optimal solution when resources per seat are very expensive. That’s not the case for Odroid-C2. Since TLW’s files are on the server she may yet run some of her processes there remotely. It hasn’t been an issue. She has all of 2gB RAM with which to play. Previously, she had her share of 4gB on Beast III. It’s all good. Beast is idling and could run her processes completely but there was contention for RAM. Beast IV will have two-four times as much RAM so the question of thin or thick may be revisited then. It’s good to have choices.

  35. Deaf Spy wrote, “Windows 10 is about to get per-app dynamic throttling features to further improve battery-life. It is very likely we see this in 2017”.

    Ahh… Catching up, eh? Chuckle. So much for retroactive innovation at M$.

    “cpulimit is a simple program that attempts to limit the CPU usage of a process (expressed in percentage, not in CPU time). This is useful to control batch jobs, when you don’t want them to eat too much CPU. It does not act on the nice value or other priority stuff, but on the real CPU usage. Besides it is able to adapt itself to the overall system load, dynamically and quickly.”

    M$ is only a decade behind.

  36. Deaf Spy says:

    It is charming to see how Windows becomes more and more efficient when it comes to CPU, memory and power usage. Windows 10 works nicely on a lowly 2-core CPU, with 2GB of RAM…

    On analogous hardware, Android (is it Linux, Robert?) is having real hard time performing snappy. Top-notch Android smartphones come with 6-8 core CPUs, 4 Gigs of RAM…

    Welcome to consumer Linux in 2016 – waste of cores, waste or RAM, waste of energy. 🙂

    Unless, of course, Robert agrees Android is not Linux. 🙂

  37. Deaf Spy says:

    A clean install of Windows automatically installs the necessary drivers and automatically enables low-power mode on GPUs when on battery, yes all this happens with default settings

    And not only that, my uzo-loving mate. Windows 10 is about to get per-app dynamic throttling features to further improve battery-life. It is very likely we see this in 2017.

  38. Deaf Spy says:

    Your checklist used to spread yonder Windows:
    1. ARM to replace all Intel hardware.
    2. Thin-clients and one “Beast” to rule them all.

    You failed on both. TLW’s notebook is neither. Looks like that even C2 is not a thin client.

    And you will never have smartphones with Linux. Android is anything but Linux. It may have the Linux kernel, but not much else. No one but you calls Android “Linux”.

  39. Deaf Spy wrote, “it clearly demonstrates your complete inability to influence the operations and infrastructure at your own home.”

    Probably the only place */Linux would be in my home without my influence would be in gadgets and smartphones. OTOH, */Linux is everywhere in my home. TOOS is nowhere. How do you deny that’s influence?

  40. Deaf Spy says:

    All clear. TLW has her own ways of working with software and hardware. Which is great.

    It is even more spectacular because it clearly demonstrates your complete inability to influence the operations and infrastructure at your own home. Not only can’t you persuade TLW to use some more efficient and time-saving approach in her work. You can’t even persuade her not to use the monstrous Intel hardware she clearly doesn’t need.

    Robert, you are not entitled to speak for the world and tell people what they need. People know better than you do.

  41. Deaf Spy wrote, “why didn’t she simply click “Print” on her notebook and go to collect the paper from her office? Why did she had to carry the notebook to her office in order to print?”

    She could do that. She prefers not to do that. The printer is also a fax and scanner. It requires someone to feed in documents. It might as well be she who does that. Only she understands her filing system for paper and she only knows what she wants done with them so I have almost nothing to do with printing except a few times a year. It’s our “paper-flow” whether you like it or not.

  42. Deaf Spy says:

    She could do that with the notebook but it’s easier to sit down at the Odroid-C2 than to carry the notebook from where it is to her office … She can print from anywhere on our LAN

    This is getting more and more mysterious Robert.

    What you say is that C2 and the printer reside in the same room, TLW’s office. The notebook is not there. TLW doesn’t want to carry the notebook to her office in order to print, so she sits on C2 to print.

    Now, why didn’t she simply click “Print” on her notebook and go to collect the paper from her office? Why did she had to carry the notebook to her office in order to print?

    Mysteries!

  43. Deaf Spy wrote, “the notebook cannot?”

    Facts not in evidence. All our machines can print. Some machines are mobile. The printer is not. It’s parked in her office.

  44. The Wiz wrote, “Are we to presume that you have been unable to set up her LINUX portable to network print to the same printer?”

    Nope. She is ambulatory but her paper world is in her office and she doesn’t like carrying the Intellish notebook so she leaves it and goes to her office where the Odroid-C2 waits. She can print from anywhere on our LAN. Similarly we have phones and TVs all over. No need to carry much.

  45. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “She was using Odroid-C2 just yesterday. Needed to print a spreadsheet.”

    Are we to presume that you have been unable to set up her LINUX portable to network print to the same printer?

    How can that be?

  46. Deaf Spy says:

    Please enlighten us, Pog. How come C2 can print to this fabulous printer when the notebook cannot?

  47. Deaf Spy wrote, “Ops, she doesn’t want C2, she wants her 8-core monster that can trash your Beasts”.

    False. She was using Odroid-C2 just yesterday. Needed to print a spreadsheet. She could do that with the notebook but it’s easier to sit down at the Odroid-C2 than to carry the notebook from where it is to her office. That’s where the printer resides… She has the advantage of seats rather than the mobility of a heavy, large machine. She gets what she wants.

  48. Deaf Spy says:

    I just thought how TLW uses her “new” notebook

    Intel, idling cores, burning power… Hey, I thought people and TLW don’t need idling cores! Especially TLW who has her C2. Ops, she doesn’t want C2, she wants her 8-core monster that can trash your Beasts, present and future, any day, any time.

    See, Robert, until you convince TLW to throw away this 8-core Intel, you are not entitled to recommend any alternative to Intel whatsoever.

  49. “much worse battery life compared to Windows that cannot be fixed by even an advanced user”

    Chuckle. I just thought how TLW uses her “new” notebook… She never runs it on the battery. It’s always plugged in simply because she never wants to have to stop what she’s doing to plug it in. So, this is all moot for her. It’s just a desktop in a different format.

  50. oiaohm says:

    But not by default. A clean install of Windows automatically installs the necessary drivers and automatically enables low-power mode on GPUs when on battery, yes all this happens with default settings (I again remind you I bought my laptop with FreeDOS and did a clean install of Windows 10, everything I just described, Windows did it by itself, for me).
    Not in every single case will everything work right. You got lucky that there were no adverse side effects.
    https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/hybrid_graphics
    Note the probe script here and the listed bugs. Yes hibernate failure due to GPU being powered off when system suspends effects Windows and Linux.

    Linux install defaults are the defaults that yes are power hungry but don’t result in system stuck in a loop of shutdown failures as Windows can suffer from because it enabled stuff like GPU turn off out the box. So what you are complaining about that Linux does not do with GPU is sometimes a god send.

    Please note turning GPU off is a ACPI call and some case some laptops + windows using retail image results in windows turning off CPU cooling fan instead of GPU due to overlapped ACPI. Hardware makers and quirks mandates only using correct image of windows or else. Remember hardware makers have got very good at putting in contracts not supporting machine if you update OS or not use their approved image since you can brick it by doing that.

    Linux default install state in most distributions avoid setting particular things automatically for very good reason being get it wrong brick the hardware by burning the CPU out or some other critical part. Not that Microsoft particular cares if you have to go and buy a new machine.

    A very big one: much worse battery life compared to Windows that cannot be fixed by even an advanced user.
    Totally not true in most cases that an advanced user cannot fix the problem these days. Some cases after you turn all the power management stuff on that Linux by default does not you find it beating windows by large margins. So advanced Linux user using items like powertop have a lot more clue where the power is being consumed. Then you have TLP http://linrunner.de/en/tlp/docs/tlp-linux-advanced-power-management.html That does a lot of the power saving options that depending on how quirky your laptop is could ruin your day that do ruin your day under windows if the laptop is quirky and you used a retail windows install image.

    Of course how many laptops certified for Linux have hybrid-graphics the answer is none. Pure Intel, AMD, or NVIDIA setups are very simple to set up on laptops. Yes pure AMD and NVidia setup install closed source drivers automatically add laptop intelligence on power management be it windows or Linux. Hybrid graphics even under windows comes suspect for failing to power off GPU when it not need or power off gpu causing hybernate/shutdown issues.

    Hmmm… Do they still make discrete GPUs these days? I thought everyone was into integrated GPUs on portable stuff.
    This comment of Robert is exactly what a person would say if they were reading the Linux certified hardware list for laptops.

    There is a lot of work to attempt to fix up the multi GPU mode on Linux and hopefully find someway to-do it that does not kill hardware by turning the wrong parts off and killing the laptop as some windows users get hit with when they install from image not from vendor on particular vendors laptops.

    Kurkosdr 90 percent of windows malware is signed one way or another. So signed or unsigned augment of yours is nothing more than foolish smoke and mirrors.
    http://www.securityweek.com/researchers-hide-malware-inside-digitally-signed-executables
    The signed packages from Linux repositories are fair more trustworthy than signed Windows executable packages. The reality Microsoft need to go back and redo their executable signing process completely as currently it Swiss cheese for number of defects to allow third parties to run their malware code while telling end user it signed using someone else signing key because they wrapped it.

    Linux world is truthful. Step out side wall gardens where you don’t have someone vetting the binaries AtYourOwnRisk (TM). Microsoft with poorly done executable signing attempts to push the false story that this is not the case. Windows users are getting caught that they see hey this executable is signed it has to be safe to install opps malware infected.

    As normal you arguments are getting out of date really quickly. In fact the windows signed executables providing security is nothing more than a myth because the Microsoft executable signing method is defective with documented ways around it that malware writers are using. Basically the house of Microsoft executable signing burnt down a few years ago and Microsoft still has not admitted it to the public.

  51. Kurkosdr wrote, “much worse battery life compared to Windows that cannot be fixed by even an advanced user.”

    See Configure NVIDIA Optimus in Debian, Kali Linux with bumblebee

    See? This is not a shortcoming of GNU/Linux. If it can be done, GNU/Linux can do it.

  52. Kurkosdr says:

    “Do they still make discrete GPUs these days? ”

    Try and find out, genius! If they do and they still sell at respectable numbers, this means Desktop Linux has a shortcoming. A very big one: much worse battery life compared to Windows that cannot be fixed by even an advanced user.

    “GNU/Linux certainly can run lower-powered drivers if/when desired.”

    But not by default. A clean install of Windows automatically installs the necessary drivers and automatically enables low-power mode on GPUs when on battery, yes all this happens with default settings (I again remind you I bought my laptop with FreeDOS and did a clean install of Windows 10, everything I just described, Windows did it by itself, for me). Desktop Linux doesn’t do that, which results in worse battery life compared to Windows unless you fiddle, if you can find the correct drivers. That’s another shortcoming.

    Log, you want an OS that will run your Beast Desktop clunker and Desktop Linux fits the bill, we get it. Can we laptop users stay on Windows without having an someone telling us how Desktop Linux has no shortcomings all the time? Thank you.

  53. DrLoser wrote about, “a very early candidate for Stupid Blind Bigot Comment of the Year”.

    That’d be Trump’s for sure. He’s the best. [SARCASM]

    While you can point to individual problems/bugs with GNU/Linux they are not shortcomings of GNU/Linux per se but of particular implementations. It’s true that while GNU/Linux may have problems they are fixable by anyone who wants to fix them whereas TOOS, say, prohibits that behaviour by EULA. GNU/Linux has no EULA limiting what the user can do with the software or the hardware on which GNU/Linux runs. That’s a huge positive benefit overshadowing any possible shortcomings. In short, in balance, GNU/Linux is a net benefit to its creators and users and to all mankind, whereas TOOS and its ilk is mostly of benefit to its creators who charge multiple times the cost of “services” rendered. OTOH GNU/Linux rewards the users with benefits worth multiple times the costs of acquisition/maintenance. Does an apple tree have any shortcomings? Nope. It just keeps giving and the cost of acquisition is covered rapidly giving net benefits for decades afterwards.

  54. DrLoser says:

    GNU/Linux has no shortcomings

    I nominate this as a very early candidate for Stupid Blind Bigot Comment of the Year.

    What, none? Not a single one?

    Proof by assertion is still a valid rhetorical flourish in the backwaters of the Canadian Prairies, I see.

  55. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Those versions of TOOS have established the reputation of M$ for good or ill. “10” BTW has still not beaten those obsolete versions despite being $free for a year.”

    Nope. they are as dead as doornails to those of us who are getting our work done using the latest versions. As to windows 10 market share – that will come as the old systems age out – remember Robert Pogson, the world is not as cheap as you are.

  56. Kurkosdr wrote, “GNU/Linux gets much worse battery life in all laptops with discrete GPU compared to Windows.”

    Hmmm… Do they still make discrete GPUs these days? I thought everyone was into integrated GPUs on portable stuff. GNU/Linux certainly can run lower-powered drivers if/when desired.

  57. The Wiz wrote, “obsolete versions of windows”.

    Those versions of TOOS have established the reputation of M$ for good or ill. “10” BTW has still not beaten those obsolete versions despite being $free for a year.

  58. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Regards, and search for good Linux. Or else, everyone here will bash Winblow$ ME, 8 and Vi$ta…”

    If you want to make yourselves look stupid bashing obsolete versions of windows, go ahead.

    None of us will care.

  59. Agent_Smith says:

    Kurkosdr wrote: “Ubuntu and Debian, but it doesn’t matter. My point is that in Windows, I can get a SIGNED copy from the vendor’s site and run it, while on GNU/Linux you have to deal with the report middlemen occasionally gutting the software (like gutting libdvdcds from VLC), or deal with unsigned stuff. Can you understand this?”

    I understand you use crappy GNU/Linux and you get crappy performance.

    Get Puppy Linux, the real deal, comes with a shitload of stuff in a 200MB ISO.

    And, the packages, are all made by the community, no repos, the guys make the package and upload it to the forums. Anyone, kinda like Arch, but much less hipster.

    Regards, and search for good Linux. Or else, everyone here will bash Winblow$ ME, 8 and Vi$ta…

  60. Kurkosdr says:

    “Vendor? What’s a vendor?”

    App vendors, it should have been clear unless you deliberately try to not understand. VLC binaries downloaded from vendor site (no repo middlemen gutting the all) have signed Windows binaries but unsigned Desktop Linux binaries. And this is how it is for most binaries outside the repo. Step outside the repo (“it’s not a walled garden, honest”) and almost every app is unsigned and AtYourOwnRisk (TM).

  61. Kurkosdr says:

    non-discretionary = non-discrete

  62. Kurkosdr says:

    “I use CTRL-F1 frequently and it works on any video card.”

    I asked for switchable graphics, not selectable. Your solution doesn’t make the high-performance GPU to not drain the battery when the low-performance is on. Which is the reason GNU/Linux gets much worse battery life in all laptops with discrete GPU compared to Windows.

    This is another thing that drove my off Desktop Linux: The fact the communitah will use verbal sleight of hand and every kind of semantic loophole they can to avoid admitting their system has shortcomings, sending you on a wild goose chase (“I pressed ctrl+f1 to switch to the low-powered GPU and my battery life is not improving, I must be doing something wrong”)

    “I don’t use a notebook if I can help it.”
    So, the shortcomings don’t appear in your requirements scenario. Good for you. This doesn’t mean they do not exist. They do manifest in the very common requirements scenario that is laptops with discrete graphics cards.

    (laptops with non-discretionary cards also get worse battery life with Desktop Linux than Windows on default configuration, because X.org can’t trigger the max battery life mode of the integrated GPU depending on drivers and configuration, but since this can be sleight-of-hand-ed more easily by Pog, let’s focus on the laptops with discrete cards which fails always and is a confirmed shortcoming).

  63. Kurkosdr wrote, “please tell me how to get switchable graphics to work so that I get good battery life on any laptop with a nice discrete nvidia card”.

    I use CTRL-F1 frequently and it works on any video card. I don’t use a notebook if I can help it. Flat keyboards don’t work for me. Floppy displays don’t work for me. I’m old school and like a comfy chair in a good location, a keyboard and mouse in a good position and a humongous LCD display way out in front. It does have a power-switch and I use it frequently. Further, if I want to access my computers and any application from anywhere on the LAN I can with GNU/Linux. I doubt M$ even allows that with their EULA from Hell. OTOH, I can do anything I want with my computers, my network and my time with GNU/Linux. I’ve never had to fight a virus on GNU/Linux for instance.

    He also wrote, “I can get a SIGNED copy from the vendor’s site and run it”.

    Vendor? What’s a vendor?… Oh, you mean like kernel.org and patch-4.4.40.sign and patch-4.4.40.xz? Yes, I do that frequently. Great service. Great software. Great $price. No limitations.

  64. Kurkosdr says:

    report middlemen = repo middlemen

  65. Kurkosdr says:

    “GNU/Linux has no shortcomings although plenty of people have weak imaginations. ”

    Then please tell me how to get switchable graphics to work so that I get good battery life on any laptop with a nice discrete nvidia card.

    It has no shortcomings to YOU with your limited requirements (aka getting your non-portable computers to run), but most people have moved on to laptops.

    “Because mine always come with the whole shitload of plugins and never skips any video or music file.”

    Ubuntu and Debian, but it doesn’t matter. My point is that in Windows, I can get a SIGNED copy from the vendor’s site and run it, while on GNU/Linux you have to deal with the report middlemen occasionally gutting the software (like gutting libdvdcds from VLC), or deal with unsigned stuff. Can you understand this?

  66. “we are talking about the shortcomings of GNU/Linux”.

    GNU/Linux has no shortcomings although plenty of people have weak imaginations. I find I can do more with GNU/Linux than with TOOS. I’ve been of that opinion since 2000 for basic operation and certainly for everything else since ~2005 or so. TOOS has played catch-up but it hasn’t lost its complexity which is a killer for maintenance/security nor its enslavement via EULA. No thanks! I’ll choose Freedom.

    BTW, I just ordered a new wireless access point for this place. It can do 802.11n and lots of other things and can keep up with our ISP all the way. The old one was pretty slow at lots of things like booting and sometimes we got way too little throughput. The new baby is the Netis WF2780. It should be able to keep up with the 21st century for a few years. It’s been on the market for 2 years and gets decent reviews. There are reports of a UDP backdoor, but my other router will stop that. I even like the price. 😉 I bought mine from Amazon.ca.

  67. Agent_Smith says:

    What Linux do you use Kurkos ??? Because mine always come with the whole shitload of plugins and never skips any video or music file.
    Perhaps, you are using Microsoft Linux, the one that comes the crappiest way, bare bones, without nothing, really, is a propaganda of Winblow$…

  68. Kurkosdr says:

    Besides, better run Linux, where the user controls its machine, than to let MS dictate the rules and give the user the ride seat.
    Ironically, one of the reasons driving me out of GNU/Linux was the repository thing, where apps like VLC are gutted out of their libdvdcss support (“it’s not a walled garden, honest”) and the fact that most stuff outside the repositories is not signed (AtYourOwnRisk™). GNU/Linux distros cleverly pass the responsibility to the user with the “x” permission and the PPA system (you decide if you want to run this, no assistance in making that decision!) to hide the fact they don’t really have a widespread app signing system outside the repos. Meanwhile on Windows, I can download a SIGNED copy of VLC WITH libdvdcss support and run it on my 8-year old Acer Aspire netbook running Windows 7, just like that…

    It’s called Linux, not GNU/Linux.
    You are aware that Enigma2 satellite receiver boxes advertise as containing Linux an do infact contain Linux? So by saying Linux, you are using a catch-all term that includes both OSes, which is irrelevant because here we are talking about the shortcomings of GNU/Linux.

  69. It’s called Linux, not GNU/Linux.

  70. Agent_Smith says:

    Ahh, those are paid articles, since cellphones are eroding the PC market.
    Besides, better run Linux, where the user controls its machine, than to let MS dictate the rules and give the user the ride seat.

  71. Kurkosdr says:

    Does Desktop Linux do decent battery life and switchable graphics? Not yet? I will pay the cost of Windows to have switchable graphics and good battery life in general.

    My Lenovo Z70-80 has a small lightweight battery and pulls 4 hours on full brightness. With a 17-inch monitor. That’s Windows power management with switchable graphics for you! I have a 17inch mobile development machine to run my SDKs in comfortable screen real estate, with good battery life, that doesn’t hurt my back too.That’s Windows power management with switchable graphics!

    Any lame OS can run in an old Beast clunker permanently tethered to a wall, but I want more. It’s 2016!

    Malware

    Again: Penetration testing scenario on fully updated Windows box that doesn’t apply to Debian. Give me one. One. I repeat: one.

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