Finally! A Buck!

We’ve been hunting many days this season and only today took a buck.

It was pretty easy until the retrieval… We set up at the angle of an “L”-shaped opening with mature poplar on one side and immature poplar on the other. It’s a funnel for deer moving between forage and shelter in the coniferous forest nearby. This was a “bucks-only” season or we would have brought home a deer much sooner. We set up 30 minutes before sunrise and about two hours later the buck moved into the opening about 150 yards away and stopped, looked and listened. A Winchester model 70 in 7mm Remington Magnum spoke, delivering a 175 grain round nosed bullet through the rib-cage. The deer staggered and trotted to the far side of the opening, obviously not under full power.

young buck
 
The scene of the impact showed a lot of blood pouring forth and hair broken off by the bullet. The deer staggered once again before laying down to die within seconds of being shot. He didn’t travel 50 yards.

The 7mm Remington Magnum can do excessive damage to a deer at such close range, so I loaded it down to 7×57 Mauser levels. Even so, the bullet ripped a one inch exit hole and scattered bone chips from a rib on the way in. The load used was

Case Bullet Powder Charge LOA
Winchester, 7mm Rem Mag Hornady 175 RN .284 IMR7828 62 gr 3.28 inch

My preferred recipe: 170 gr RN out of a Mauser 98 (8X57JS)
 
We carried some pointed rounds for longer shots with 175 BTSP and 65 grains of IMR7828 with LOA 3.29 inch. With that, a deer can be killed to 400 yards without adjusting the sights. The RN load is usable to 300 yards but probably best kept under 200 yards. This is powerful medicine for the biggest bucks. I expect we’ll move to lighter bullets sooner or later, to reduce costs and to avoid overkill. I’m thinking of using 139 SP for long shots and the same bullet downloaded and marked for identification for close-in work. I could run green nail-polish in the extraction groove to distinguish them. Those bullets cost 20% less and that matters when one shoots targets in the off season. 140SP is good enough for deer like this.

Shooting and waiting were the easy parts of this adventure. We then had to field-dress the deer and drag it up and down hills over a quarter of a mile. Both of us were dripping sweat and we took turns carrying equipment back to the car and dragging the deer there. It would not fit in the trunk of the car so the lid was tied down with four feet protruding. Now the buck is hanging in the garage all skinned and ready to butcher. We’ll save that for the weekend.

Hunting deer is an ancient ritual and part of our duty to keep the balance of Nature if we suppress natural predators and avoid hitting deer with cars. Agriculture and mild weather the last few winters has caused populations to grow rapidly after some deep snow starved many and delivered many to predators. I expect “bucks only” will not be the rule past one more year or the does will inherit the earth. This buck will supply a good portion of red meat for my family for a year or two. It’s all good.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in firearms, food, hunting and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

24 Responses to Finally! A Buck!

  1. oiaohm says:

    [SARCASM]I suppose that’s why bow and arrow was so popular in the wars of the 20th century.[/SARCASM]
    The bow and arrow is part of general combat into the 1960~ and was quite a popular weapon with specialist units. Bow and Arrow was superseded not by the gun but by the RPG and longer range mortar launcher some mortar specialist units around the world still have the bow and arrow in their insignia because that was the weapon their unit started with. So tactics that use to be done with bow and arrow in today’s war fare would be done by mortar launchers.

    Also before the 1960~ for military survival hunting that is s shooting out to a max of 200 yards the bow and arrow was superseded by the cross-bow and bolt this is still in use in different armies around the world. There is a issue with explosive bolts in a cross-bow due to force applied to projectile that is why armies were still using the bow and arrow as late at the 1960~. Also a cross-bow bolt without feathers in case of ricochet will not return to stable flight so lose lots of speed due to tumbling in air just like a bullet. So the general hunting range use of bow and arrow is totally not in any active military hand book due ricochet risk but the cross-bow and bolt is instead.

    The reason for using cross-bow or using a bow and arrow in a country were licensing a cross-bow is annoying is there is a issue with using a gun against small in ground living pray like rabbits the vibration from the explosive in the gun in fact drives them away from you. This is really confusing to a gun user why bow users can be camped in 1 location and have a stack of dead rabbits yet if gun user were set-up in the same location they get like 1 or 2 kills and bow person can go the day after and still collect another stack. Yes using a silencer with gun does not fix the problem. Yes this is why using explosive charge to drive rabbits in hunters direction works as well. The vibration to the rabbit is like the warning of a earthquake/land slip/cave in so they move away from it.

    From a safety point of view I would prefer to be using a cross-bow with bolts. In countries where owning a cross-bow with bolts does not have legal issues hunting any animal with a bow and arrow should serous-ally questioned why.

    A lot of people don’t know that gun never superseded the bow and arrow because the bow and arrow had already lost to the crossbow and bolt for the same roles as gun and that the crossbow was only part superseded by the gun. The reusable crossbow ammo and the silence comes important in a survival set-up behind enemy lines. So modern day solider can be seen with a mortar launcher, guns and a crossbow to cover all combat/survival requirements of a foot solider. Even before 1960 when the bow was in use you would have seen bow/arrow, guns and crossbows. So its the mortar launcher that replaced the bow/arrow in the end.

    Crossbow and mortar launchers remove the bow and arrow from general combat. Both crossbow and mortar launchers require less training than bow and arrow so soldiers using those are more expendable.

  2. oiaohm wrote, “Territory control against volumes of hostiles sheltering behind stuff bow with explosive arrows and Mortar launcher has advantage over gun” and other stuff that makes little sense.

    [SARCASM]I suppose that’s why bow and arrow was so popular in the wars of the 20th century.[/SARCASM]

  3. oiaohm says:

    Fifi, admit it. You are too much of a wimp to pull back on a bow, you actually have to have muscle stamina, and with you having Marfan syndrome, I doubt you can do anything useful in life.
    https://www.marfan.org/download/file/fid/165/Physical%20Activity%20Guidelines.pdf
    dougman Archery is one of the recommend sports for people with Marfan Syndrome.

    Contact sports are out and shooting a gun that is not in a gun rest is out. So medically I am not allowed to shot a gun against a shoulder because that can dislocate. So I have learnt to use the ranged weapons I am medically allowed to use being crossbows, bows and other ranged weapons. Also I have learnt how to work around the limitations of those weapons. Like bow has range but lower accuracy but arrow has larger payload than a bullet. So gun vs non explosive arrows from bow gun at range has advantage. Gun vs explosive arrows at range weapons are now level for human on human.

    To prevent dislocations anyone with Marfan Syndrome is required to maintain muscle tone. Maintaining this muscle tone means we have to have about 4 to 5 times the average person stamina because to takes 4 to 5 times more work to get the muscle tone. So if anyone is the wimp here it would be you dougman because medically if I want to remain healthy I cannot be a wimp. With skill you should be able to 5 arrows on target a minute or faster or basically 200 arrows don’t even last a hour.

    dougman basically about times you gets some facts before commenting on stuff. Reality I was on property here in Australia before fireworks and gun control. So using explosive arrows was a tool. There is a big issue with idiots thinking we have gun we have advantage.

    There is a old saying don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. It sounds stupid taking a gun head to head with Mortar launcher. Explosive arrows is the Mortar launcher of old and you use them the same basic way.

    Hunting for food gun has advantage of range, Hunting bows have advantage of being natural close to silent so not driving pray away. Territory control against volumes of hostiles sheltering behind stuff bow with explosive arrows and Mortar launcher has advantage over gun. Each weapon has it usages and it risks and the ammo that makes the most out of were its great and covers for where it poor.

    Now dougman you would not have suggested being 300 yards away and letting me have a crack at you with a Mortar launcher yet 300 yards away from a person with bow is in fact asking for exactly the same thing unless you state they are not to use explosive arrows.

  4. dougman says:

    Fifi, admit it. You are too much of a wimp to pull back on a bow, you actually have to have muscle stamina, and with you having Marfan syndrome, I doubt you can do anything useful in life.

  5. Ivan says:

    Jesus, Pete, lay off the damned dope.

  6. oiaohm says:

    Utter crap. Have you ever been to an archery range? Where are the berms and baffles to prevent this “danger”?
    I have taken part in construction of archery ranges. It is a mistake of a firearm user.

    Issue is the berms and baffles used for firearms is next to useless for an archery range due to size of error bowman make. Proper archery ranges do deploy baffle netting.
    http://collinsnets.co.uk/product-category/sports-netting-equipment/golf-practice-cage-archery-baffle-netting

    The designed required for safe archery are very much like safe golf driving ranges so lot of the supplies for it are made for both.

    Also the no berm is common but the ground has been ploughed over to do rock removal. So when the arrow its ground it will stop not ricochet due to hitting something hard. Now field hunting you can not prep the ground.

    If you are in a restricted area with bow you will have roof with netting over you head to prevent you from firing outside a particular range of degrees and a berm down range to stop it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4Bqa29ZR_s
    You get idiots who do the above who forget hard objects and arrows don’t mix if you want to be safe.

    On ricochet an arrow will be going sideways for a bit, putting out a parachute and slowing rapidly as well as energy lost in the collision.
    Its no where near as much as you would first think. The round body of the arrow is fairly low side drag and they are design that was intentionally to reduce wind drift.

    You can make double nock arrow. Where you put a nock were would normally put the arrow head. When you fire arrow backwards it will still go into target where the arrow head should be because it flipped over. Remember a nock has horible wind drag compare to a arrow head but that is only 10 to 15 yards off the max range with the drag of the nock and the arrow pulling a 180 in mid air when compared to same arrow with standard tip. The 50 yard loss of ricochet most of that is physical direction rebound losses.

    The long ranges you describe can’t happen with a slow arrow.
    This is true but not all arrows are that slow. Like a 40 hunting bow that is the min has a 25 yard effective hunting with a 125 yard lethal. Notice something here that is a 5 to 1 ratio. At 100 you will be looking at min 500 yards and up to 800 to 900 range. So between 5 to 1 and 9 to 1. So if you means time of arrow shot to time of arrow hitting target max effective hunting range max flight time figure. If the projectile take long that that time to cross the distance the weapon will not be effective at that range with a moving target.

    I DARE you Fifi, to stand upwind of me, 300 meters with said bow and shoot it at me.
    dougman this is not know bows and arrows and quivers.
    I will even let you empty an entire quiver of arrows at me
    A large quiver is between 50 to 200 arrows. Mine is 200 arrows. If you stupidly let me fire all 200 off and don’t move and I did it I would have a murder charge because you would be dead. Reason for such a large quiver is rabbit hunting where you can rack up 180+ kills in a night. Also you have not state type of arrow. First arrow could be explosive equal to a hand grenade so as long as I get inside 2m of you then you are dead from shock-wave. Explosive arrows are sometimes uses to collapse sections of rabbit warrens of course the rabbit move away from the very big bang. Explosive arrows are shot 250 to 400 yards and your choose distance is the sweet spot of dead if bowman is using Explosive arrows. Why when you are shooting out to max 100 yards for kill would you need to drop explosive arrow that far is to trigger disturbance on other side of the warren to where you are set up to hunt to drive the rabbits in your direction.

    Yes guns for hunting game have advantages but for hunting humans were bowman may use more lethal classes of arrows that are not suitable for game because it would destroy game there is not as much advantage as people would first think. Explosive arrows making a human a 4 metre across target to hit for kill kinda makes it a easy shot.

    Dougman you would have only seen people with hobby bow sets-ups. Not people who have live in the country and have bows and arrows set up for proper vermin control. If you had seen any of the vermin control set-ups you would have never said something a stupid as the person could empty their quiver because you would have understood the volume of arrows that in fact meant. Maybe you would have seen an explosive arrow and its vermin control usages then you would have known that 300 yards is where you aim those. So a 300 yard shot out bowman not restricted on types arrows and bow you are basically dead first arrow. So person with firearm better be planing to killing bowman before bowman lets fly with the first arrow because even what appears to be a miss can be you dead. There is no out side difference between an explosive filled arrow and a normal arrow. A bowman knows the difference due to choose shaft colours for the explosive ones that does not have a standard but group chosen. So with hunting quivers use your own groups quivers only or confirm with group the quiver is from that is explosive free.

  7. dougman wrote, “tell that to my 300 Weatherby Magnum. The bullet travels at 3600 fps using a 165 nosler balistic tip bullet.”

    More like 3200 ft/s at the muzzle and down to ~1800 ft/s at 800 yards. That could work but I still say most bullets won’t do the job that far. Most hunters are not using such a rifle nor even Nosler bullets. See Nosler’s recommendations. That’s marginal. See Hodgdon’s loading data.

    Hodgdon
    H1000 .308″ 3.560″ 84.0 3,014 45,600 CUP 89.7C 3,216 54,200 CUP

  8. oiaohm wrote, “So 100 yards down and 200 yards ricochet with an arrow is kinda scary because that can be 100 yards behind or 300 yards in front of you where you arrow ends up hitting with lethal force”.

    Utter crap. Have you ever been to an archery range? Where are the berms and baffles to prevent this “danger”? They aren’t there because your description of the behaviour of an arrow is fantasy. On ricochet an arrow will be going sideways for a bit, putting out a parachute and slowing rapidly as well as energy lost in the collision. The long ranges you describe can’t happen with a slow arrow.

  9. dougman says:

    Fifi, what do you know about anything? You don’t hunt, you don’t own any sort of bow or crossbow.

    “Bows are a lot more dangerous due to the power you are using and how stable arrows are after ricochet resulting in the force loss of a ricochet to be limited.”

    I DARE you Fifi, to stand upwind of me, 300 meters with said bow and shoot it at me. I will even let you empty an entire quiver of arrows at me, but you better start running, because when I shoulder my 300 you heart is flying out of your chest, literally!

  10. oiaohm says:

    When an arrow ricochets, the greatest probability is for destabilization and greatly increased drag.
    Robert Pogson 50 yards range is consumed by that this is why a bow set to a max of 500 is only drooping arrows at 300. Problem is a arrow works like a sea anchor. The drag of the feathers makes arrow form stabilisation again in what ever the direction of travel is. This is how a person incorrectly shots arrow in an area with a solid wall end up with it inverted and back in them. If an arrow has more than 30 yard of ricochet distance back to you arrow will be back in stable flight. Arrows don’t remain unstable after ricochet like bullets do. Arrows recover due to design after ricochet.

    One of the reasons of old why very highly powerful crossbows did not use arrows but a item called bolts out of normal round steel was so in ricochet event the object would not recover stable flight.

    Robert Pogson I am not ignoring physics you are. You have overlooked arrows behaviour due to shape and drag. Bows are a lot more dangerous due to the power you are using and how stable arrows are after ricochet resulting in the force loss of a ricochet to be limited.

    So 100 yards down and 200 yards ricochet with an arrow is kinda scary because that can be 100 yards behind or 300 yards in front of you where you arrow ends up hitting with lethal force. This makes drawing arrow danger map quite scary.

  11. dougman says:

    “To hit the target, perhaps, but most bullets will not expand at 800 meters. Too slow at that range.”

    Eh, tell that to my 300 Weatherby Magnum. The bullet travels at 3600 fps using a 165 nosler balistic tip bullet. Setting on top of a hill in Montana picking Antelope off like prairie-dogs in Missouri.

    “Also, the effect of wind and mirage are much more serious to that range.”

    Duh!.. its not entirely that hard to ring steel at 1600 meters, once you know what the hell you are doing. Its not like the target is moving, just adjust elevation/windage and BOOM- DING! A 12 year old can do it.

  12. dougman says:

    “oiaohm, ignoring physics AND reality, ”

    That’s the most truthful statement on this blog ever!

  13. oiaohm, ignoring physics or reality, wrote, “Due to the fact you have enough arrow force to go 400-500 yards if a arrow hits a rock at a 100 yards it can in fact ricochet up and still have enough force to be harmful out to 300 yards from ricochet.”

    Arrows are stabilized by the drag on the feathers. When an arrow ricochets, the greatest probability is for destabilization and greatly increased drag. Hence, the outcome he goes on about is a tiny corner case with all the gods having to will the arrow to 400 yards. Even if the arrow reestablishes stability it is likely the point or fletching will be damaged and drag will still be higher than normal. I’ve fired a lot of arrows and only one ricocheted. It buried itself in the ground.

  14. oiaohm says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et23I9zneqk
    If you miss a deer at 80 yards with an arrow, the arrow is likely to strike Earth by 100 yards.
    Hunting bows do not presume that. This person is using the grade of bows that normally used for hunting yes with that you target shot 200 yards as prac. Then to avoid missing due to wind drift you restrict to 80 yards. Due to the fact you have enough arrow force to go 400-500 yards if a arrow hits a rock at a 100 yards it can in fact ricochet up and still have enough force to be harmful out to 300 yards from ricochet. That is the thing that is kinda shocking about the hunting bows.

    To reach 420 yards, an arrow has to be pointed skyward instead of at a deer 80 yards away.
    Watch an amateurs fire bows sometimes they do something fatally wrong a lot or when skilled bow people are getting tired. Instead of drawing from the ground up they draw from the sky down(amateur mistake) or draw from ground up but then over draw and end up 30-45 degrees up(amateur/tired pro mistake). Yes that does lead to arrows at times being let fly at 45 degrees for a target that is only 80 yards up where you should not be firing anywhere near that high. So a miss with an arrow you have to presume is 45% up. The one thing to remember with a bow is a person skilled will either normally hit fairly close to target or miss very wild. The miss very wild is they have gone for the 1 extra shot they should never attempted.

    One mistake with a person shooting with a bow is presume that when they screw up with the arrow they will be pointing at what they are planing on killing. This is why a bow in a lot of ways is more dangerous than a gun.

    When you miss fire a bow is commonly way worse off target than a gun miss fire. Wind kicks and gravity kick in faster on bows due to slower speed. So you need more scope a adjustments.

    Robert Pogson please note the 7mm average was not in a ideal rifle to get the max out the bullet.

    The problem with hunting bows is you are pushing the fire force up and up to get faster speeds to reduce wind effects so hitting 80-100 yards exactly is dependable way. Problem is this has also put the force into the arrow that if you miss you are going way past the target. Some modern hunting compounds can in fact drop more force into arrow than what was used in the world record hand drawn arrow shot of over 1000 yards.

    Bows are not a weapon to take lightly due to how much power and range you are in fact playing with. Most people would not think with a bow to shot a live target at 80 yards you are in fact setting the bow to shot an arrow 500+ yards at the 42-44 degrees up for normal max range and max range is the lethality range. If a person is strong you can find bows in hunters hands set to 800-900+ yard maxs for 100 yard shot.

    Robert Pogson basically a bow is a lot like a gun except the range you tune a gun to with ammo and rifling can be very tight on the max range. Bullet running out of spin and tumbling loses speed fairly quickly. Arrow on the other hand how exact it is is purely force/speed so a bow you tune them to quite massive ranges to make quite short shots.

  15. dougman wrote, “I’m good out to 800 meters.”

    To hit the target, perhaps, but most bullets will not expand at 800 meters. Too slow at that range. Also, the effect of wind and mirage are much more serious to that range.

  16. dougman says:

    “Just zero for 440 yards.”

    Eh, I just use a Trijicon, zero’d at the initial 100 meters and I’m good out to 800 meters.

  17. dougman says:

    Fifi, that was painful to read. The spelling errors, non-parallel sentence structure, and punctuation errors detracted from whatever point the you were trying to make.

  18. oiaohm wrote, “The big thing with arrows is how far they are in fact lethal if you miss. So you are aiming for a max of 80 yards and there is 420 yards of miss range lethal.”

    Only if you turn off gravity. To reach 420 yards, an arrow has to be pointed skyward instead of at a deer 80 yards away. If you miss a deer at 80 yards with an arrow, the arrow is likely to strike Earth by 100 yards.

    oiaohm wrote, “7mm bullet rifle effective aiming is 300-400 yards has about 100-200 yards of miss range lethal so a lot lower risk that someone is going to be in the target range of miss that you are not looking at.”

    Nonsense. With 7mm Remington Magnum 120 to 175 grain bullets can strike a deer in the vital zone from 50 yards to 440 yards without adjusting the sights. Just zero for 440 yards. Deer/elk/moose can easily be taken up to 600 yards with such a rifle by zeroing for 800 yards and holding low on the target or using a laser range-finder and making a precise setting of the sights. Indeed, with the right bullet, expansion and a reliable kill can be made. Meanwhile an arrow is way off target at much shorter ranges no matter the skill of the archer nor the quality of his/her arrow. Bow and arrow is not in the same league at all with modern firearms. It’s very limited technology just like muzzle-loaders or sticks and stones.

  19. oiaohm says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOM4IQjQtM4
    dougman watch this video then learn never under estimate a bow. The reality is shocking that kids bow in the video you posted is more powerful than the bow used in the above video.

    The penetration of a arrow far exceeds a 7mm bullet even with quite poor bows. A bullet has hydrostatic shock and can do more accuracy at range at range due to the higher speed. But a 7mm bullet average range is 450 yards lethal where a modern fairly poor compound bow
    http://dankoboldt.com/medieval-versus-modern-archery/ is 500 yards lethal but effective targeting by human bow users is between 50-80 yards for an highly skilled(depending on what guide you believe) and as bad as 25 yards for a poorly skilled. So this is not the range of the arrow is the limiting factor but how well we can fire an arrow due to its slower speed with changes in wind and the like and hit the target correctly.

    So for deer hunting the compound bow vs a 7mm gun is in fact the bow is the more powerful weapon but is target tolerance is smaller and you need more skill to use it effectively and your range is badly restricted because human targeting skill.

    The big thing with arrows is how far they are in fact lethal if you miss. So you are aiming for a max of 80 yards and there is 420 yards of miss range lethal. Now 7mm bullet rifle effective aiming is 300-400 yards has about 100-200 yards of miss range lethal so a lot lower risk that someone is going to be in the target range of miss that you are not looking at.

    So in a lot of ways people bow hunting is way more dangerous than guns. There are bows with right combination of arrows than can in fact in range and lethality go head to head with a 50 cal but accuracy of the bow is completely up the creek so unless you have like 30 people firing you would be unlikely to hit target dependability where a single 50 cal gun could shot the target dependably.

    There are a lot of crossbows can do effectively do 100 yards but you have to custom build or altered scope because most crossbow scopes are restricted to 60 yards. This is also the trouble you run into with normal bows is you are lucky to have the scope to go past 60 yard and without a scope for the range you are shooting pulling it off with human skill alone is rare. So range of scope on the bow/crossbow is no where near what the weapon can do. This does lead to big problems with new people to bows totally getting the distance that need to be clear to safely use a bow and this is why new people to bows are way more likely to shot someone by mistake with a miss shot.

  20. dougman says:

    “The shooter values accuracy and prefers not to use 6.5X55 or 8X57. Previously, he used..”

    Heh, so this wasn’t your deer. When are YOU going to bag a buck?

    I don’t bow hunt, but for this kid to bag an Elk with such, is just amazing.

  21. dougman wrote, “you should have used a smaller cartridge”.

    The shooter values accuracy and prefers not to use 6.5X55 or 8X57. Previously, he used 308 Win. The 308 and 7mm Rem Mag are our most accurate rifles. The 7mm is better able to cover the length of this opening. It’s not too much rifle/cartridge for a 350 yard shot. It is for 150 yards and for that he used a reduced load. There is a regulation against a hunter having two rifles in the field… That would also be silly. Having two different rounds, one loaded to full potential with an efficient bullet and another loaded down quite a bit with a slower RN bullet is a practical and simple solution for hunting in the real world where a buck might appear close or far randomly.

  22. dougman says:

    Doesn’t matter, you should have used a smaller cartridge. I have hunted with pistols, shotguns, and rifles and I never use more power then what I truly need. I learned this at age twelve when I ruined a wild turkey with a 12 gauge shotgun at point blank range. The ONLY time I have come close to this was shooting Elk and Antelope with a single-shot .50 caliber rifle, but I needed the range and weight of the round as the herd was over 800 meters away.

  23. dougman, you didn’t read TFA:
    “The 7mm Remington Magnum can do excessive damage to a deer at such close range, so I loaded it down to 7×57 Mauser levels.”

    That place can benefit from having 7mm Rem Mag. Shots up to 400 yards are possible from one end of the opening to the other. At that range, it’s not excessive and we have heavy BTSP bullets loaded to near maximum power for that.

    The buck was not “gut shot”. I was present for the field-dressing and the bullet passed through the lungs well in front of the diaphragm. The deer was dead in seconds. You can clearly see the placement if you click on the image of the downed deer. The bullet struck about midway along the rib-cage and about 1/3 the way up. As much blood as ended up on the ground, there was much more in the rib-cage ahead of the diaphragm. This placement is about ideal if you want to eat heart. Any further forward and a leg or the heart would have been messed up. This placement is very conservative too, allowing for error in every direction while still being very effective. I know the shooter can shoot sub-MOA groups any day of the week from rest. He shoots MOA off-hand. He was seated and had a very steady position. When I saw the deer run off I too thought there was some mistake but there was none. It was a good kill.

  24. dougman says:

    Rather overkill there, 7MM is for hunting elk. Your gut-shot is off aim, no wonder he was able to walk off so far.

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