My Experiences Converting Users To GNU/Linux

“If you sit a child in front of a Linux computer, they usually just start using it. It’s an amazing thing to watch. Kids are curious by nature and they also have the added advantage of not having any preconceived notions when it comes to how a computer ought to work. I have found, on the other hand, that the hardest kind of person to teach Linux is the crusty old Windows power user.”
 
See My Mom Runs Linux!
My wife, TLW, runs GNU/Linux with few problems. She uses a tablet, an Odroid-C2 ARMed thick client, and a big notebook all running Debian GNU/Linux or Ubuntu and her Android/Linux smartphone and her scanner and printer all deal with Beast, my GNU/Linux server. I have her file-system plugged in via NFS so she can do IT in bed, in front of the TV, on TV, or in her office and all her thousands of pictures, documents, scans etc. are all in the same place.

She doesn’t even have much problem using Ubuntu or XFCE4 on Debian because she mostly uses the same applications all day long. It just works for her and memories of That Other Operating System are fading. She was locked to a single thick client with limited capabilities in those Dark Days. She had repeated crashes and malware. Today, her issues with IT are things like changing the name of a file on the FTP server or how to scan a light image or…, real problems, not problems M$ causes billions of people every day.

It was the same with users of old XP machines in schools where I worked. With GNU/Linux, students found they could do more faster with GNU/Linux and they just took off like young birds, flying fast and furious in all directions. Teachers were another matter. A few were extremely reluctant to make the move, reluctant to try new things, reluctant to leave the Devil they knew, reluctant to change. Old people are a bit like children. They may not ever have used much computerized IT so it’s all new and wonderful to them. GNU/Linux is new and wonderful to me and I’ve been using it 17 years now. GNU/Linux isn’t a problem, but an opportunity to have hardware to all it’s capable of doing rather than a straight jacket limiting what we can do.

I recommend Debian GNU/Linux for people who want software that works for them not against them.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.

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48 Responses to My Experiences Converting Users To GNU/Linux

  1. ram says:

    Waay back when, in the days of DR DOS and OS/2 my company used LaTex extensively. Later, on Linux, the LaTex tools all still worked. Now, of course, LaTex capability has been largely integrated into LibreOffice.

  2. oiaohm says:

    Anyway, having LibreOffice AND Word in a computer gives you better chances at opening a file that just LibreOffice. First you open it with Word, and if it opens, it is guaranteed to be perfectly formatted. If the rare case it doesn’t open (haven’t happened to me, didn’t know it was a problem till I saw the link you gave me), then you may try opening with LibreOffce and losing some formatting.
    Again still wrong. Even if current Word opens a docx document its not guaranteed anywhere close to be formatted perfectly until you set the correct compatibility mode for the prior versions. Even setting prior version compatibility mode still might be wrong. This is where libreoffice test suite is being so good they have how the document renders by the MS Office that made it and then compares that to what Libreoffice does to it then attempt to work out how to achieve that without user needing todo any alterations where ever possible.

    So the reality is even if the document opens with Libreoffice 5.0 vs MS Office the result is the one with the document most likely correctly formatted without having to change things is Libreoffice. Libreoffice 5.0+ has better code for detect what compatibility modes are required than MS Office itself mostly due to the managed QA process in effect these days.

    It always been the case having Libreoffice and MS Office with each other was better than having just one of them. But since Libreoffice 5.0 if you have to choose 1 on merits the better choice on average is Libreoffice. This is why government migrations to Libreoffice has increased a lot since the release of Libreoffice 5.0.

    Maybe if you FOSSies used Word Prefect instead of insisting on latex or whatever FOSSie solutions existed back then, Microsoft would have a competitor.
    There has always been alternatives to Latex. Latex is still critical when you need absolute formatting control.
    https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~AUIS/
    If you ask what was used before OpenOffice/Libreoffice early Linux you are looking at “Andrew User Interface System” of course early on this was kinda a nightmare because Windows or Dos editions of it did not exist same with Saig another commonly used alternative.

    I am sorry to say Wordperfect was a failure of a product on Linux mostly because it was worse to use than the Linux/Unix only programs early on. Andrew was fully graphical when Wordperfect was still text driven. I will give you ignoring Microsoft Windows and Microsoft DOS with Office suite side was not exactly the wisest thing. Please note that Apple did and does the same thing with there Apple only Office suite things. Common sense has taken over that Cross platform support is required in what ever the default Office suite is on Linux. Microsoft has some Cross platform support in MS Office so they are not 100 percent clueless on this point. Yes open source world made a early tactical mistake. Wordperfect was inferior to what the open source world was using at the time but due to the open source product not being cross platform it let Microsoft and Coral dig a deep foot hold. Of course is now filling in Microsoft foot hold is not a simple process but Open Source are in fact making progress on that front.

    Please do remember I can run Microsoft Office in Android emulator without issues these days for cases where Libreoffice don’t render and in fact remain close to legal. Issue being the screen size limitation rule. So I don’t need a pirated version of Microsoft Office just use a version of Microsoft Office and break rules or have it on a tablet with right size screen. Both cases legally free download. On a correct size tablet absolutely correct legal usage. So why pirate when you can have MS Office legally free and clear in the first place.

    People like dougie with very few real-life duties can fantasise about ODF being as abundant as ooxml, but it is not the reality.
    He is not 100 percent wrong on ODF at times being abundant but his response was him not knowing facts and just inverting things to get a bite.

    Countries who governments run on Libreoffice or Openoffice the most important document format is ODF stuff. There are statistics around on types documents on a per country base. Countries with government using Libreoffice or Openoffice you see a spike in PDF and ODF documents and a massive drop in ooxml used. So how much you need ooxml or ODF directly aligned to what your government is doing. So some places ODF is abundant and OOXML is the rarity. World with computer software is not a percent the same everywhere usage pattern.

    Its like we think of Google when we web search as english people yet if you were Russian Yandex is what you would think of. Search engine and Office suite document format usage is very much a per country thing. Of course in both cases a single party has won in the most countries at this stage but it is not the absolute winner as dominate still has countries where it loses.

    So what country your real-life duties are in define if you need ODF or OOXML. So if you had to pick a Office suite and not know the country you were going to be dropped in the winner is Libreoffice because some countries crossing the boarder requires functional ODF program so you will not get out of the place without using Libreoffice as MS Office will not cut it. Of course when you know the country you will have a bias to MS Office or Libreoffice. If you can choose both that is the best for compatibility at this stage. Please note I typed at this stage as this is not a constantly stable going on.

    I really to class it as stupid with the mess Microsoft Office is to recommend people install Microsoft Office only. Libreoffice only can be justified on cost saving and for some people they never hit a document that does not work any more. So I see today choice being if to install Libreoffice or to install MS Office with Libreoffice or install kingsoft with Libreoffice with the answer being very country dependant. The one thing you will be installing these days is Libreoffice.

  3. kurkosdr says:

    Constantly changing things mean creating more and more points to screw it up.

    Bahaha, you wish MS was just “constantly changing things”. MS is constantly changing things and arbitrarily extending the format with binary blobs. The whole “transitional” deal was invented just so Microsoft will not commit to a standard format.

    Anyway, having LibreOffice AND Word in a computer gives you better chances at opening a file that just LibreOffice. First you open it with Word, and if it opens, it is guaranteed to be perfectly formatted. If the rare case it doesn’t open (haven’t happened to me, didn’t know it was a problem till I saw the link you gave me), then you may try opening with LibreOffce and losing some formatting.

    Why jump directly to step #2? Is MS Office that hard to pirate? I don’t think so.

    —–

    BTW, I hate docx as much as you do.

    But you see, these are the pitfalls of one company having 90+% of the market. Maybe if you FOSSies used Word Prefect instead of insisting on latex or whatever FOSSie solutions existed back then, Microsoft would have a competitor.

    This doesn’t change the fact I constantly come accross templates and OOXML stuff people send me or upload to websites. And having MS Office and LibreOffice is a much, much better chance of opening them right compared to just Libre. For example, someone sent me an XLSX 30 minutes ago. A return of deposit form. You just can’t walk around this stupid OOXML thing, so I want, I need to have MS Office and LibreOffice, thank you.

    People like dougie with very few real-life duties can fantasise about ODF being as abundant as ooxml, but it is not the reality.

  4. oiaohm says:

    Essentially, in order to open docx files reliably you have to have the latest Word version. I never had upwards compatibility problems (aka old file opened by new version) on doc or docx, only downwards compatibility problems.
    Lucky bugger because that is not the reality. The incompatibility is both ways.
    http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/msoffice_excel-mso_winother/excel-2013-cant-open-old-files/4aa82ab7-cd26-4975-ba3c-06cf37b1e600?auth=1
    This is attempting old excel in new excel and it failing big time. Sorry to say there are examples out there with docx and doc of the same nightmares happening with new versions of MS Office.

    Sorry latest version of Word is still cross your fingers and pray it opens format intact if document is from a old version of Word.

    It is a fact that docx is under constant evolution, with MS constantly changing and extending it both officialy (aka releasing new versions of the supposed ISO standard) and unofficially (diverging from the standard or stuffing binary blobs in the file).
    What you stated here is why at some point docx files turn around and kick you where it hurts with Word even when running the latest version. Constantly changing things mean creating more and more points to screw it up. The question is how long until you have one of those files.

  5. kurkosdr says:

    when the created = when they created

  6. kurkosdr says:

    MS Office can load odt templates and odt files perfectly? Because all the files people send me are in odt format (rarely doc/docx). Should I throw hissy fit every time they do that? Should I ask them to resend as docx even if it is a template uploaded to a site by somebody I don’t know?

    Bahaha! Yet another FOSSie thinking most people care about ODF or that they use it. Most people use Word and save in the default format Word recommends, end of story.

    Of course a bias examples missing the fact that different versions of MS Word don’t open each others docx files perfectly at all in fact sometimes MS Word will just say the document is corrupted when all that is wrong is a MS Word version/patch miss match.
    It is a fact that docx is under constant evolution, with MS constantly changing and extending it both officialy (aka releasing new versions of the supposed ISO standard) and unofficially (diverging from the standard or stuffing binary blobs in the file). Essentially, in order to open docx files reliably you have to have the latest Word version. I never had upwards compatibility problems (aka old file opened by new version) on doc or docx, only downwards compatibility problems. Of course, having the latest Word version to reliably open docx files is probably what Microsoft wanted when the created docx, I understand that. But you know what, I don’t care. I want, I need the docx files people send me to open reliably, and I am prepared to pay the cost.

    Unless Office can be pirated (haven’t checked, I am still running on the license the university gave me), in which case I am not prepared to pay the cost…

  7. oiaohm says:

    Well hammy, you would know. You are the epiphany of lies.
    dougman no you respond to topics you don’t have a clue on so make lies all the time.

    Also you try lets change topic to win instead of looking at that claim and checking if it valid because you don’t have any clue on how to correctly do background research and attempt to guess.

  8. dougman says:

    I always loved receiving .xlsx documents as rental contracts from businesses. I would always mess with the formulas to benefit me for the better. 🙂

  9. luvr says:

    The formatting errors in Libreoffice with imported docx are reducing every version release.

    True… I sometimes receive “docx” files from the bank, and until recently, I couldn’t open them properly with LibreOffice. I always returned them and asked for a copy in a proper format such as PDF. They used to respond positively, but they appear to have given up responding. The last time that I opened the “docx” file that I had received from them, I was surprised to see how well it got formatted when I opened it with LibreOffice 5.

  10. dougman says:

    “dougman basically kurkosdr made a claim that was not true”

    Well hammy, you would know. You are the epiphany of lies.

  11. oiaohm says:

    LibreOffice can load docx templates and docx files perfectly? Because all the files people send me are in docx format (rarely doc). Should I throw hissy fit every time they do that? Should I ask them to resend as ODF even if it is a template uploaded to a site by somebody I don’t know?
    kurkosdr lets as a key question can MS Office in fact load docx templates and files perfectly to start off with? Due to all the variation in docx you have better odds that the file will in fact open in Libreoffice than MS Office. Note I said open. Ok Libreoffice may not have kept the formatting perfectly intact but the file opened and you can read the contents.

    You take part in a course in Australia and you will get access to an academic version of MS Office matching the version of MS Office they wish you to use so that load docx templates and files in fact works most of the time. Yes there are still cases of people having different bits of software and printers on their machines interacting with MS Office resulting in docx files playing up when using identical versions of MS Office.

    Or are you going to pretend for one more time that LibreOffice does docx perfectly (or as good as Word) and I am supposed to provide counterexamples for the 1000th time?
    Of course a bias examples missing the fact that different versions of MS Word don’t open each others docx files perfectly at all in fact sometimes MS Word will just say the document is corrupted when all that is wrong is a MS Word version/patch miss match.

    dougman basically kurkosdr made a claim that was not true with MS Office let alone asking Libreoffice to-do it. One of the on going issues with MS Office is the fact you cannot depend on templates or documents reopening in future. Reason why national archives mandate PDF or ODF for long term document storage is they work. Yes a issue Libeoffice does not in fact suffer from as long as the file has not been damaged and libreoffice use to open it has kept on being able to open it with every update and version change.

    The formatting errors in Libreoffice with imported docx are reducing every version release. With Libreoffice 5.0 a point was crossed where opening random docx files with MS Office or Libreoffice the one that was the most likely to have stuffed up formatting came MS Office. Yes documents where MS Office version miss match event(different version of MS Office opening to what created it) are now more common than documents using formatting options Libreoffice does not have implemented or implemented correctly. Thinking Microsoft created docx is surprising how bad they can be with a format they created. Of course before 5.0 Libreoffice still opened a larger number of the docx files than MS Office did.

    If Libreoffice keeps on going the way it is the most compatible program for docx will be Libreoffice. Its about time Microsoft invest some money fixing up there version to version compatibility wait that would decrease Microsoft sales.

  12. dougman says:

    Ham-Dong,

    You’re simply stuck on an old topic. You use obsolete tools to implement inferior infrastructure. The the rest of us, however, has moved on.

  13. oiaohm says:

    It could probably handle 400 pounds without sinking out of sight.
    This is the repeated big mistake. Support wheel for plough and tiller used in any other location other than behind a plough or a tiller can normally support over double the mass normally closer to triple because you are not caring about soil compaction. Yes making the back frame support 400 pounds there is basically nothing of the existing bit you can use it will all be the wrong sizes.

    200 pounds/90KG is about upper limit for a guide wheel on a lot of implements walking or conventional tractors Robert Pogson. Some of the normal tractors guide wheel use spring steel that will only support 90KG as well.

    Its a very common thing when breaking guide wheels for people to go and attempt to make something stronger using the same wheel instead of using weighting or correctly starting from scratch. Ok swapping from normal steel to spring steel to make them way less likely to break is normal and correct.

    Increasing support value to 400 pound/181kg not a simple idea. The difference between support wheel designed for up to 90Kg and one design for up to 180KG for on a tilled or ploughed surface is increase the diameter/width of wheel to double the contact area to support correctly double the weight without starting compacting badly.

    I am use to doing these numbers in metric. Also increasing the support wheel strength you will stealing traction in a waking tractor because weight has been taken away from the drive wheels. 1000pound~500KG for the machine 180KG(400pound) would be heading in the direction of supporting over 1/3 of the mass of the machine on a non drive wheel.

    180KG support end with under 166KG(1/3 of mass based on the fact the machine has 3 wheels) per drive wheel. So 180KG on the support wheel would result as the wheel with the most mass on it being the support wheel not the drive wheels when you are not on the machine. This is a location you really would not want to end up in.

    90KG is only stealing about 1/5 of the mass off the drive wheels so this is still over 200KG per drive wheel to ground.

    Of course this is maths is optimistic in a bad way I have not subtracted off how much mass is in fact supported when the tiller is in operation. Yes a tiller cutting ground is partly lifting itself out the ground.

    Yes you see people increase the strength of the guide wheels then cannot work out why they are getting bogged when they were not getting bogged before or worse make the machine totally not controllable as it attempts to pivot around the non drive wheel due to it have the most mass on ground and it all because by error they took weight off the drive wheels.

    This is where weighting comes in. Adding a weight to the front of the walking tractor to reduce force on the guide wheel at back still results in most of the mass sitting on the drive wheels in fact increasing mass on drive wheels so not undermining traction that is key to steering and performance in a waking tractor.

    Modifying farm equipment is serous-ally take account of balance or can serous-ally kill you. Just because a bit of farm equipment is breaking something does not mean that is the bit that need altering. Ride on Walking tractor is a little trickier due to how exact on the weight limit edge they are. As I said Walking tractors are on a sweet spot and being on a sweet spot can be dangerous if you do careless alterations. What makes ride on walking tractors highly effective at ploughing is the very thing that makes there a little trickier in set-up.

  14. Deaf Spy wrote, “when the Little Woman goes on vacation, does she still take a Wintel machine with her?”

    Nope. She has none to take. She’s away at the moment with an Android/Linux smartphone.

    A cloud solution would work, as would SSHFS. She has options. So far, FTP is the goto solution as it is compatible with the multifunction printer. Any visitor can also browse the FTP server on our LAN so this is useful with visitors who do not have to do anything more than connect to the wifi or plug into the LAN. It works for us. Beast also has a searchable database of images accessible to browsers. It’s quite a nice system and it’s all in the house. This could be put on the web but so far that’s not particularly desirable and issues of security would be more serious.

  15. Deaf Spy says:

    The scanned images on the FTP server appear magically on her desktop so she can’t just rename them from an anonymous login.
    A perfect example of inferior tools and technologies.

    Using a cloud technology, that happens also “magically”, and one can rename them without caring of logins at all. On any device, regardless of the CPU platform.

    You’re simply stuck in the past, Robert. You use obsolete tools to implement inferior infrastructure. The world, however, has moved on.

    P.S. Courtesy of the Doctor, when the Little Woman goes on vacation, does she still take a Wintel machine with her?

  16. dougman says:

    KUKU, going off on some tangent, misses the point.

    MS Office can load odt templates and odt files perfectly? Because all the files people send me are in odt format (rarely doc/docx). Should I throw hissy fit every time they do that? Should I ask them to resend as docx even if it is a template uploaded to a site by somebody I don’t know?

    Or are you going to pretend for one more time that MS Office does odt perfectly (or as good as Word) and I am supposed to provide counterexamples for the 1000th time?

    Eh.

  17. kurkosdr says:

    Eh, the same thing could be said about LibreOffice, your point is moot.

    LibreOffice can load docx templates and docx files perfectly? Because all the files people send me are in docx format (rarely doc). Should I throw hissy fit every time they do that? Should I ask them to resend as ODF even if it is a template uploaded to a site by somebody I don’t know?

    Or are you going to pretend for one more time that LibreOffice does docx perfectly (or as good as Word) and I am supposed to provide counterexamples for the 1000th time?

    Perhaps if you FOSSies didn’t masturbate over LaTex so much and had started efforts to make your own word back when MS started their efforts, you would have a worthy word editor by now.

    PS: On an unrelated note, LaTex sucks for text formatting. It is only good if you want to draw really complicated equations. You can easily tell books that have been written in LaTex (particularly Unix books from the 90s). They contain very little diagrams, charts and tables, because deep inside people avoid writing formatting commands in elvish aka LaTex (and would have drawn more diagrams, charts and tables if they had a point-and-click word editor). Then they try to compensate for that by using many different fonts, making the book look like something unearthed from King Tut’s tomb.

  18. dougman says:

    “I can load a template (like the template the university provided to me when I had to do my dissertation) and be sure that it will load perfectly and with all the features there and working as the university wants them to work. Just like I can load a docx from another guy or gal, a recruiter or whoever, and be sure it will work perfectly. I want that. I need that.”

    Eh, the same thing could be said about LibreOffice, your point is moot.

  19. kurkosdr says:

    BTW, this is the reason so many people use Microsoft Office. With MS Office, I can load a template (like the template the university provided to me when I had to do my dissertation) and be sure that it will load perfectly and with all the features there and working as the university wants them to work. Just like I can load a docx from another guy or gal, a recruiter or whoever, and be sure it will work perfectly. I want that. I need that.

    You can argue how docx is a bad format (it probably is), but it doesn’t change the users’ needs. Trying to talk users out of their needs doesn’t work. Or more accurately, it works only if you are in close proximity to them and you can be such a real annoyance they will finally cave in. It doesn’t work over the internet, and this is precisely the reason so many years of Desktop Linux advocacy have failed to make Desktop Linux break the 1-2% mark globally.

    It is exactly the same deal with good GPU drivers and switchable graphics.

    But I assume that if all you want from your computer is the ability to launch a browser and a very basic word editor… oh yeah, Chromebooks have this market niche cornered, especially now that they are getting a version of MS Office (hint: compatibility with docx files colleagues send). And Chromebooks happen to have an app stores whose games aren’t poor knockoffs of Mario Kart (empasis poor) and the most popular download isn’t dosbox. Which means the purpose of Debian GNU/Linux is?

  20. kurkosdr says:

    Why should you have to pay M$ to use hardware you bought from Intel/Nvidia? For the same reasons one pays highway robbers or protection rackets.

    For the same reason people pay for razor blades to use the razor they bought from Gilette. Because they want to shave with a frickin’ razor! Similarly, if you have a nice laptop with intel and nvidia cards, and want good GPU drivers for both and switchable graphics, you have to pay MS. Running MS Office with 4,5 hours of battery life using the Intel card and then, 5 seconds later running Need For Speed on the Nvidia card is sweet. You don’t even have to manually switch anymore, it’s done for you automatically. How much is the price of a Windows license to have that? I paid it.

    so no you don’t need the latest OS version to run the official builds of VLC but the process is a pain in ass. </em.

    I am prepared to pay the cost of Windows to not have to do a process that is a pain in the ass to run the latest VLC on my not-latest OS version. Obscure stuff like that is litterally a waste of grey matter.

    Or even better, MPC-HC, which is a Windows exclusive, based on the awesome DirectShow filters Desktop Linux can only salivate about having.

  21. oiaohm wrote, “The tail-wheel is weight limited for a reason.”

    No, it isn’t. It’s just poor engineering with the strut collapsing under my weight. The machine weighs ~1000 pounds and that strut can’t handle 200 pounds. The wheel itself is welded sheet-steel. It could probably handle 400 pounds without sinking out of sight. I could redo that whole assembly by replacing a thin strut with something more substantial and rely on nuts and bolts to adjust the depth. The thing is light, slimmer than the supports for the tongue of a 400 pound trailer. The screw is about 1cm thick and the strut is made of very thin material. It’s just too light.

  22. Deaf Spy wrote, “Except for renaming files, reportedly. But every child knows renaming a file on FTP is a “real IT problem”.”

    My point is that all the routine things are easily done by her. She has a much more complex IT environment now than she ever had with TOOS on a single PC and GNU/Linux works for her. The scanned images on the FTP server appear magically on her desktop so she can’t just rename them from an anonymous login. It doesn’t matter. She can copy and paste them into a working folder somewhere and rename them. She’s off and running, keeping up with even the youngsters on the web. Years ago with TOOS, she needed a handful of legal pages with “recipes” for doing this and that. With GNU/Linux she’s free to use the hardware to its maximum capability.

    The Odroid-C2 is utterly transparent to her. She’s gone from a big ATX box to that tiny package with scarcely a flutter once we configured Ubuntu GNU/Linux to do her bidding.

  23. Deaf Spy says:

    FTP works for her.
    Except for renaming files, reportedly. But every child knows renaming a file on FTP is a “real IT problem”.

  24. oiaohm says:

    Before going off on me in “Haybine Mode”, Robert even stated that “can’t support my weight which is triple TLW’s weight” so obviously you cannot read.
    The tail-wheel, which is supposed to add fine-tuning to the steering can’t support my weight which is triple TLW’s weight and it barely allows one to hold a straight line.
    I missed that line. The tail-wheel is weight limited for a reason. There is no point tilling over the soil if you are only compacting it again. Too much weight on the tail wheel is sign of miss balance. Walking tractors do have a front weight position for a reason to correct this issue. Remember this is basic levers.

    BTW: Robert, you should have plowed the compacted surface, then run the tiller over the ground. Breaking tools, just speaks volumes that you are using the tool improperly.
    Everything is about using the tool correctly. Not weighted for his weight. Not having a plough to break the surface.

    dougman yet you are a idiot has been going on that he should have some other machine.

    Walking tractors you put weight on front to reduce force into ground. Conventional tractors you put weight on front to increase force in ground.

    The reality here is Robert has a tractor. Reality Robert should be able to ride on it if it configured correctly. Now you have a tractor and don’t configure it correctly for task with weight and implements its going to give you trouble. This does not matter if it conventional or walking tractor.

    Must not have done a lot of ploughing either because guide wheels having trouble on conventional or walking in both cases is normally add front weights so excess load is not coming back on them.

    The reality here dougman you have not used a walking tractor enough to know what they did and come in with bias about china made stuff.

    One of the disadvantages of a walking tractor over a conventional is having to set walking tractor to match the weight of the user. Every design has downsides.

    So dougman is it that the machine cannot support his weight or is it simply machine not configured for his weight. Since your body weight is part operational part of a walking tractor it does bring a few problems at times. Instead you went off with a stupid rant that it was not a tractor. Instead of reading and understanding the mechanics.

    I have mentioned many prior times that walking tractors at times do need weight corrections.

    Interesting point. There are no adjustment pads on the tiller side, this and the fact of the hard ground is why you are having issues.
    No they are not there for a reason even the BCS thing you pointed to on its tiller does not include it. You normally don’t see them on walking tractors tillers as it can make turning way harder. Instead the adjustment is done by machine balance. This is where people who come from conventional tractors to walking get themselves into trouble. Adjustment pads on tillers behind normal tractors is so when you lower them and the tractor lifts up due to drag so you don’t end up going in deeper as you will run out of HP to move the thing. Of course most walking tractors you will have the HP to move it because you have tones to spare.

    One of the hardest things to get about ploughing and tillers is most of your adjustments is that you have to think in terms of pivot points and levers to see where to adjust. The area you may need to adjust may be the very other end of the machine to where you are adjusting. Of course adjusting wrong place equals just having more trouble.

  25. dougman says:

    After reading the section,

    “John deere lawn tractor 24HP engine yet due wheel width and ground contact cannot in fact put all that force to ground. Due to where you are sitting you weight is holding the tiller out of the ground instead of pushing it in as it would on a proper walking tractor. So the result is it has a bigger engine and is able to do less work. To put contact a 18HP ANON walking tractor can pull a 8 disc plough without any major problems that is 2 meters wide. Hook that up to the back of a John deere lawn tractor 24HP its not going anywhere. Its all about usable power and how you have been stuffed over with 4 wheel tractors.”

    …it has occurred to me, you remind me of one of those blathering rednecks that drink beer all day, but always bitch that they cannot do anything with their life. They are the first one’s to tell you how something can be done, or it cannot be done, but do not have two pennies to rub together.

    Before going off on me in “Haybine Mode”, Robert even stated that “can’t support my weight which is triple TLW’s weight” so obviously you cannot read.

    BTW: Robert, you should have plowed the compacted surface, then run the tiller over the ground. Breaking tools, just speaks volumes that you are using the tool improperly.

    Interesting point. There are no adjustment pads on the tiller side, this and the fact of the hard ground is why you are having issues.

  26. oiaohm says:

    BUNK! That walking thing of a ma’bob, is in know way classified as a tractor. You have to be able to ride on it, which you cannot.
    http://mrpogson.com/2016/09/22/good-and-great-news/
    IDIOT who cannot pay attention. Look at the photo on that page. There is a seat. A walking tractor the seat is connected to the implement so that your body weight is applied to the implement. Walking tractor is working with the basic idea of a physics being a lever to get the most force to ground with the least possible weight. If you are overly heavy it can be required to add a percentage of your body weight to the front of a walking tractor to get to correct balance to reduce downwards force.

    All the ANON walking tractor attachments have a place to put a seat or a seat permanently connected.

    John deere lawn tractor 24HP engine yet due wheel width and ground contact cannot in fact put all that force to ground. Due to where you are sitting you weight is holding the tiller out of the ground instead of pushing it in as it would on a proper walking tractor. So the result is it has a bigger engine and is able to do less work. To put contact a 18HP ANON walking tractor can pull a 8 disc plough without any major problems that is 2 meters wide. Hook that up to the back of a John deere lawn tractor 24HP its not going anywhere. Its all about usable power and how you have been stuffed over with 4 wheel tractors.

    Same basic physics screw you up when use a normal tractor. Look at where the weight is and pivot point. A normal tractor is weight aligned for lifting out the ground not pushing into the ground. You can only optimise one way or the other. More optimised to task something is the less energy you have to use to perform the task.

    Ploughing you are wanting to push into the ground.

    Basically rules of physics does not change. Walking tractors for ploughing are just insanely effective. As robert stated once half the weight of the machine in the walking tractor with tiller is in the tiller. Add on mass of person riding quite a lot of downwards force. Same applies with putting a ripper on the back of a walking tractor. Yes the operators body weight provides a decent percentage of the force holding a ripper in the ground with a walking tractor.

  27. dougman says:

    You know, this is a super big maybe. I have mentioned it before but the process is a pain in ass.

    Badly packages applications exist. Depending how built Yes it would be better at long last has agreed to sit down and work Ok it would be nicer

    Interesting point. There is something interesting here.

  28. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr
    You know, with Firefox shipping without GPU acceleration…
    This is a super big maybe. Firefox itself does not ship internally directly using the GPU acceleration libraries for video. Does use GPU acceleration directly for web page rendering. Firefox uses ffmpeg for video decoding by default.
    https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/HWAccelIntro
    Depending how ffmpeg built you can have full video acceleration on Linux Firefox. Yes it would be better if firefox by itself was deciding to use the accelerated libraries so this was not a dependency action. So its not exactly shipping without GPU acceleration firefox shipping without GPU acceleration when ever it offered because it depending on a third party bit to enable it.

    Nvidia at the last XDC at long last has agreed to sit down and work on a common set of libraries for their cards that work with everyone other cards as well. Nvidia/Intel mess is fairly much Nvidia being stubborn. Remember Windows Vista having badly behaving Nvidia and AMD drivers because both of those companies decided to be stubborn with Microsoft.

    Interesting point is vaapi that intel and amd uses ffmpeg can enable by default but due to limitation in the acceleration interface provide by Nvidia being VDPAU ffmpeg cannot. XDC2016 start of work hopefully will fix this up for 2017.

    running official builds of VLC without having to have the latest OS version.
    http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-debian.html
    There is something interesting here. I have mentioned it before 0install debian package. http://0install.net/pkg2zero.html so no you don’t need the latest OS version to run the official builds of VLC but the process is a pain in ass.
    Ok it would be nicer if VLC provided a flatpak or a snappy or appimage package with the bundling of libraries already done. Badly packages applications exist on windows as well.

  29. dougman says:

    “Just asking. I believe you admitted that when she has a choice and doesn’t have to put up with your nagging, the choice is not FLOSS.”

    *CHUCKLE*

  30. DrLoser says:

    Incidentally, when the Little Woman goes on vacation, does she still take a Wintel machine with her?
    Just asking. I believe you admitted that when she has a choice and doesn’t have to put up with your nagging, the choice is not FLOSS.

  31. DrLoser says:

    Your experience counts for nothing at all, Pogson.
    You’ve never once “converted” a user to Linux. You’ve only ever bullied them into the thing from a position of unquestioned power.
    Let’s take the example of that little old lady neighbour you “helpfully” “converted” to Linux, and then walked away, leaving her in the lurch. Typical bit of braggadocio, combined with a wickedly casual attitude to the needs of the user.
    It is possible to “convert” a user to FLOSS, Robert. Indeed, I have done so, by recommending and installing either OpenOffice or Libre (I forget which, but I’m not the sort of ignorant doctrinaire nitwit that forces the solution du jour on a friend) on a mate’s machine.
    You, on the other hand? You don’t care about other people. You just want to feel smug.

  32. dougman says:

    “See My Mom Runs Linux!”

    It’s funny, that article mentions Linux Mint, but not the “Debian GNU/Linux” as recommended by Pogson.

    Actually, this overzealous Linux user could have just bought his mom a $200 Chromebook off Amazon, and gone back to viewing is manga anime.

    NOPE!…another loser wasting precious free time doing all this laborious work for what? All she wants to do is view the web and go on Facebook or whatever.

  33. dougman says:

    “I got a tractor and implements for half the price of John Deere stuff”

    BUNK! That walking thing of a ma’bob, is in know way classified as a tractor. You have to be able to ride on it, which you cannot.

    Implements? You have nothing to attach/detach, the only thing you have is a tiller hooked to it.

    For $4000, you could have bought a used Deere and have something of worth.

    http://www.kijiji.ca/v-farming-equipment/winnipeg/john-deere-2120/1200779988

    http://www.kijiji.ca/v-farming-equipment/winnipeg/2002-john-deere-320-lawn-tractor/1197326808?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

  34. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Written like a true slave to M$. ”

    Nope.

    Mr. K’s words are written like someone who wants to get something done and doesn’t mind paying for it. That’s the way it works Robert Pogson. Not everybody is going to give you freebies that are useful in all cases, and not everybody is as cheap/miserly as Robert Pogson that they are willing to overlook and put up with the shortcomings of their freebie.

  35. kurkosdr wrote, “How much does a Windows license cost? I am prepared to pay that cost to have good GPU drivers and switchable graphics…”

    Written like a true slave to M$. Why should you have to pay M$ to use hardware you bought from Intel/Nvidia? For the same reasons one pays highway robbers or protection rackets.

  36. kurkosdr says:

    Sounds like you should be using Debian GNU/Linux. It works for me.

    Debian has Intel and Nvidia drivers worth using? Debian has switchable graphics between Intel and Nvidia?

    Of course not. Debian is yet another OS fir PeasantBoxes with ultra low-end graphics cards whose owners don’t care about good GPU performance, or even good GPU acceleration on Firefox…

    How much does a Windows license cost? I am prepared to pay that cost to have good GPU drivers and switchable graphics…

  37. Deaf Spy wrote, “I wonder how much do you hate your wife to force her use FTP nowadays?”

    She loves being able to scan to her pile of images and to browse them from multiple devices all over the house. No hatred is involved. FTP works for her.

  38. kurkosdr wrote, “My experiences are official builds of VLC requiring the latest version of the OS to install and the upgrade to that latest version breaking the WiFi.
     
    Oh, and bad GPU drivers everything. And PulseAudio breaking audio.”

    Sounds like you should be using Debian GNU/Linux. It works for me.

  39. kurkosdr says:

    My experiences are official builds of VLC requiring the latest version of the OS to install and the upgrade to that latest version breaking the WiFi.

    Oh, and bad GPU drivers everything. And PulseAudio breaking audio. I like to think that paying for Windows OEM DSP is like paying to have good GPU drivers for my Intel and Nvidia card with the ability to switch among them to save battery, and having a sane audio subsystem (aka not PulseAudio) and running official builds of VLC without having to have the latest OS version.

    Everything else, such as having access to MPC-HC and the option to pay to play Halo are neat extras…

    But if your computing needs are the ability to launch a Firefox and LibreOffice, then I guess Desktop Linux works for you… Maybe… You know, with Firefox shipping without GPU acceleration…

  40. Deaf Spy says:

    Today, her issues with IT are things like changing the name of a file on the FTP server… real problems

    Real problems, indeed! I wonder how much do you hate your wife to force her use FTP nowadays?

    Normal people, you know, I mean these billions who suffer from the unspeakable mysterious problems MS pours over their heads, use things like Dropbox, Box, Google Drive, OneDrive… In other words, Clouds. Systems which auto-sync all their data across all their devices and make your data available both off-line and on-line, depending on your choice.

  41. Deaf Spy says:

    Here’s another snippet, just for you:

    Robert, you must be trolling, aren’t you?

  42. DrLoser wrote, “Show us a snippet of your GEBC replacement, please.”

    Done.

    Here’s another snippet, just for you:
    (*initialize all the text boxes for input*)
    begin
    assign (f,'mybc.conf');
    {$I-}
    (* turn off exception handling for I/O *)
    reset(f);
    if IOResult<>0 then
    begin writeln('config file mybc.conf not found, creating one');(*no config file*)
    items[0]:='Name'; svalues[0]:='308 Win Match, 168 Sierra MatchKing';
    items[1]:='Drag Function (G1,G2...G8)'; svalues[1]:='G1';
    items[2]:='Enable Atmospheric Corrections (nonblank)';svalues[2]:='';
    items[3]:='Ballistic Coefficient'; svalues[3]:='0.465';
    items[4]:='Bullet-weight (grains)'; svalues[4]:='168';
    items[5]:='Muzzle velocity (ft/s)'; svalues[5]:='2650';
    items[6]:='Range (yards)'; svalues[6]:='200';
    items[7]:='Sight Height Over Bore (inches)'; svalues[7]:='1.6';
    items[8]:='Shooting Angle (degrees elevation)'; svalues[8]:='0';
    items[9]:='Windspeed (mi/h)'; svalues[9]:='10';
    items[10]:='Wind Direction (degrees)'; svalues[10]:='90';
    items[11]:='Altitude above sealevel (ft)'; svalues[11]:='700';
    items[12]:='temperature (F)'; svalues[12]:='59';
    items[13]:='pressure (in Hg)'; svalues[13]:='29.53';
    items[14]:='relative humidity (%)'; svalues[14]:='50';

    Exciting, eh?

  43. DrLoser wrote, “It’s the Chinese Roto-Tilller Fiasco all over again.”

    There was no fiasco. The device worked for me, accomplishing tasks that would have cost $thousands done by hiring a contractor or buying a similar machine locally. I got a tractor and implements for half the price of John Deere stuff, for example. It did cost some time and trouble but I’m retired and I like working with stuff. It did survive cultivating the yard thoroughly while cheaper solutions from Sears did not. It did have some serious design flaws but it’s not junk. The engine alone is worth what I paid and it’s still going strongly. The tiller is as good as new except for a couple of tines. They can be moved or replaced. I even have TLW willing to operate the machine when the kids were not…

    So, it’s all good for me. In a few days, the yard will be ready to plant with grass and then I won’t need all that power. The question will be how to recycle it. I could use the engine to run the alternator, pumps, whatever… I could keep it as is to cultivate a strip across the back for crops like corn. I could keep it one more year to plant grapes back there. TLW even has some friends who want it because they’ve seen what such equipment can do. It’s all good.

  44. dougman says:

    “When you have a bigoted person in the debate over farm equipment like dougman does not help the matter.”

    I would gladly use said Anon Chinese Roto-Tilller to shred your piddlyl carcass into the ground you Muslim lover. The question is, would anything grow there if I were to do so.

    Notice something here, maybe you would just stuffs it up.

  45. oiaohm says:

    https://9to5google.com/2016/09/25/google-is-testing-andromeda-chrome-osandroid-hybrid-htc-nexus-9/
    Now chromebooks sound like such a good other than Google can decide to cease support on them and they are not items you repair that much.

    Neither you nor I, Douglas, would recommend a Cello server and a bunch of rehydrated “thin clients.”
    Of course you would not Dr Loser. Cello server and thin clients have a run until something dies with the possibility to replace individual parts. The hard part is working out how have this feature.

    Chinese Roto-Tilller was a Chinese walking tractor with Roto-tiller vs Sears-Roebuck Roto-Tiller. Chinese walking tractor can use other tools other than a Roto-tiller. With Roberts soil disc plough might be the correct method. If your soil is too hard it does not matter what roto-tiller you use its going to break the consumable parts like tines and bolts way more often than you like. Anon made roto-tillers are one of the strongest roto-tillers on the market. Of course the Anon 18HP walking tractor is also very well constructed as well and has the power to use disc ploughs in very heavy soil.

    So Robert issue might be wrong implement connected to walking tractor for the soil.

    Of course DrLoser you don’t know enough so you just having the point of view hey he stuffed up because that suite you ends. The reality is anyone who has use roto-tillers a lot have a general list of consumable you expect to burn through. Tines and the bolts holding on the tines are very much expected consumables in hard soil. Engine mounts and drive shafts those are not meant to be consumed if those are being consumed it bad design. You don’t throw out a printer because it using paper because paper is expected consumable. People not use to running farm equipment normally fail to ask what the consumables are also fail to maintain a stock of the consumables.

    continue to spend their hard-earned pension money on things that have no chance of working.
    This is false with the Anon walking tractor. It has a very good chance of working and has worked. The problem is cost and availability of it on going consumables. There are options to reduce Anon walking tractor consumable usage by changing implement used like from a roto-tiller to a disc plough or equal.

    The reality is 18hp walking tractor part is big enough to handle any soil type with the right implement and sometimes the right wheels with fairly light consumable usage. Roto-tillers no matter what they are have limits on soil type they work on. Now if the Roto-tiller is the wrong implement changing make and model will not solve the problem now. Since the Chinese Anon Roto-tiller he has is one of the strongest and it still breaking it really suggests wrong implement. Now with the Sears-Roebuck Roto-Tiller it was quite a lightly constructed version. BCS crap dougman suggested has weaker tines and bolting than Anon Roto-tiller so if the Anon Roto-tiller is no living neither will BCS roto-tiller.

    This is what happens when you don’t understand the problem. Person can close to the right equipment but then replace everything instead of replacing the 1 problem part. In Roberts case Roto-tiller is looking more and more the problem.

    When you have a bigoted person in the debate over farm equipment like dougman does not help the matter.

  46. DrLoser says:

    I recommend a Chromebook for people who want software that works for them not against them, unfortunately some people don’t listen.

    For “some,” read “most,” Dougie.
    Interestingly enough, the part of humanity that does not constitute “most,” ie fanatical misers such as Robert, don’t listen either.
    Neither you nor I, Douglas, would recommend a Cello server and a bunch of rehydrated “thin clients.”
    But neither one of us will be able to make Robert see sense. It’s the Chinese Roto-Tilller Fiasco all over again.
    (Which of course was preceded by the Sears-Roebuck Roto-Tiller Fiasco. Certain types of ignorant berks never listen, never learn, and continue to spend their hard-earned pension money on things that have no chance of working.)

  47. DrLoser says:

    Shall we revisit your “skills” in an outdated language like Pascal, Pog?
    You were less than impressive last time, so here’s a challenge. Show us a snippet of your GEBC replacement, please.
    Just a small snippet would do.
    You never give anything back to the community at all, do you? Even if it is some pathetic piece of badly-written drivel that the community wouldn’t want in the first place.

  48. dougman says:

    I recommend a Chromebook for people who want software that works for them not against them, unfortunately some people don’t listen.

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