We Don’t Need No Stinking “PC”

“All PC categories in Asia Pacific continue to experience weakness, affected by improving quality and falling prices in the smart phone market. In low-income markets, notebooks and tablets are no longer must-have products and multiple device ownership is becoming less common. PC shipments in Asia Pacific and Greater China dipped 14% as the Chinese market saw its third consecutive quarter of double-digit declines.”
 
See PC market at 2011 levels as tablets fall for the sixth quarter
Not really! Some of us need local computing power or large screens or more bandwidth than a smartphone provides but there is a whole generation of young people and new users of IT for which the legacy PC is optional. I see it in my own family. Two of the three still have a legacy PC but it is getting old and may not be replaced. One actually works in IT and the company provides a powerful notebook so he doesn’t need one at home at all, but the smartphones are glued to their hips…

I was convinced that most of us didn’t need a legacy PC back in the ’90s when games and some publishing were what they mostly did for us. Then along came the Internet making a PC necessary for many. Today the smartphone fills that role, at least for those with nimble fingers and good eyes. We old folks may be the only ones who really need a legacy PC outside of work. It has happened. The smartphone is the new PC and most of them run */Linux. Amen. What GNU/Linux couldn’t do, Moore’s Law and a little denial did, replace Wintel for much of humanity.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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76 Responses to We Don’t Need No Stinking “PC”

  1. Dr Loser says:

    I will however make a concession. Since you are so enamored of scripts, why don’t you create and post here a script that uses wget to pull together all the pieces that I would need to have in place to evaluate your integrated FOSS symphonic orchestral library. The library must be integrated with a VST capable sampler (just like VSL’s software). I will then integrate the sampler into Finale using the VST capable interface and re-orchestrate my package and play back and share the results of that playback for all using a mutually agreed upon method of sharing the results.

    Seems like a pretty reasonable proposition, oiaohm, you miserable under-educated incompetent unmusical cretinous lying little dag.

    Oops, I just called you a whole bunch of naughty names. Now, it so happens that I believe you qualify for every single one of them.

    But you can prove me wrong on this one. Why not provide the script that the Wiz is asking for?

    Which might be a little difficult, these days, what with Internet Security — or as you insist on calling it, “Secuirty” — these days.

    Tell you what, little tatterdemalion one. A short sketch of how you would build that script — and please include cited links at each point for the relevant app — would be a good start.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  2. Dr Loser says:

    O yes they are you interruption idiot. Why they are under the same license as Philharmonia is they used Philharmonia recoding set up at a particular time. So sections of London Philharmonic sample set are not recorded in London Philharmonic buildings.

    A cite for this interesting yet completely unbelievable observation, please, oaiohm.

    You useless ignorant lying little dag.

  3. Wizard Emeritus says:

    And so the Linux Troll who styles himself oiaohm runs away without so much as a whimper in response…

    Next time you butt into a conversation, you should make sure that you can deliver something.

  4. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “400TB+ of raw sample data by professionals is stored at 1 national achieves because a sample set is made of every historic instrument going through a particular trading house in case in future they get damaged or lost or stolen. This complete 400TB+ is not accessible to the Internet and is licensed for final product usage how ever you like as long as they are mixed…
    (and on and on).

    You 400TB ( a bullshit number without a cite, BTW.) of raw samples are irrelevant. You have not delivered an integrated package of Symphonic Orchestral sample as your proposal for FOSS offering that is as good as what I have NOW from VSL. In fact I have been composing with all during this little exchange between us. The composition that I created for 33 piece brass choir is nearly complete and more importantly, sounds to my trained and experienced ears almost as if I had a recording made by a real brass choir.

    So as of now you have forfeited the challenge.

    I will however make a consession. Since you are so enamored of scripts, why don’t you create and post here a script that uses wget to pull together all the pieces that I would need to have in place to evaluate your integrated FOSS symphonic orchestral library. The library must be integrated with a VST capable sampler (just like VSL’s software). I will then integrate the sampler into Finale using the VST capable interface and re-orchestrate my package and play back and share the results of that playback for all using a mutually agreed upon method of sharing the results.

    I would seem to me that someone of your professed capabilities should have no trouble doing this.

    This is your one concession. You can either do this or produce a URL to an integrated package that I can download install and play back with…

    Or you can stop this nonsense, and admit that you cant deliver such a FOSS package, because it does not exist.

    No more excuses.
    No more insults.
    No more blathering.

    Just do it.

  5. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser
    There are sections of London Philharmonic under the same license as Philharmonia.

    Ignorant worthless lying little dingbat.

    No, there are not.
    O yes they are you interruption idiot. Why they are under the same license as Philharmonia is they used Philharmonia recoding set up at a particular time. So sections of London Philharmonic sample set are not recorded in London Philharmonic buildings. Its why hey I want to use X instrument why was that not bundled and now I have a download and the program sitting there doing a preping stage(yes preping stage is script converting raw samples to instrument file).

    Wizard Emeritus though he could choose a windows program. I warned him I had got outside advice so I was not restricted to Linux only programs on what I had access to. Then he goes and chooses a program the person I was talking to in fact users and understands.

    Dr Loser since you really don’t know audio there is no point butting in on this at all. All you are doing is being stupid.

  6. oiaohm says:

    Still pulling bullshit out of your ass. Spare us the lies and go away loser…
    Wizard Emeritus sorry calling that 400TB bullshit. 400TB+ of raw sample data by professionals is stored at 1 national achieves because a sample set is made of every historic instrument going through a particular trading house in case in future they get damaged or lost or stolen. This complete 400TB+ is not accessible to the Internet and is licensed for final product usage how ever you like as long as they are mixed.

    Yes 400TB+ is one set Wizard Emeritus. The reality you have no clue how large the raw sample set collections are world wide because you have no clue where you need to ask to access them. Its once you start collecting the scripts some of them have notes like contact here to get matching sample.

    Dr Loser its not gibberish if Wizard Emerus had read any of the raw sample lists he would notice the one marked a 400+TB plus in 3 years they expect to hit 1 PB. Putting something that size on the Internet with users with option to straight download is asking for connection melt down. The size of raw sample set collections is insane. Now if the raw sample sets were encoded into what different groups want the storage costs are prohibitive. Storing 400+TB is not exactly cheap but 12 to 20 times that???

  7. Dr Loser says:

    There are sections of London Philharmonic under the same license as Philharmonia.

    Ignorant worthless lying little dingbat.

    No, there are not.

  8. Dr Loser says:

    There is over 400 TB of FOSS professional made raw sample material out there if you know where to look.

    400TB of bit … after bit … after bit … of incompetent gibberish, Fifi.

    As those of us who have bored themselves rigid, reading through your customary walls of gibberish, know — quantity on its own bespeaks nothing.

    Give this one up, please, you worthless ignorant windbag.

  9. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus what is not working is saying what I am writing is giberish. There is over 400 TB of FOSS professional made raw sample material out there if you know where to look. Covering more instruments than VSL includes. ”

    Still pulling bullshit out of your ass. Spare us the lies and go away loser…

  10. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus what is not working is saying what I am writing is giberish. There is over 400 TB of FOSS professional made raw sample material out there if you know where to look. Covering more instruments than VSL includes.

    But when you say you not take raw and convert them into instrument files there is no point showing a idiot loser like you Wizard Emeritus were to get it.

    Something shocking to most people is the first synth Acoustic grand piano to trick those who claim they can tell the difference between synthetic and real only had 13 raw samples recorded at 44100Hz, 16bit synthetically scaled out to 88+ notes of a grand piano and it still tricks audiophiles today. This is the problem with counting samples you need to know how many samples in the synth are raw samples and how many are in fact synthetic samples. Now anyone looking at a wave form between that synthetic generation and the real item will notice a problem. Different freqs are absorbed by the instrument that synthetic generation does get wrong.

    So 100 raw samples can in fact be more than 1 million synthetic samples that an end user cannot pick from the real instrument. Now in a case you have instruments were every single note has been raw at 44100hz 16bitsampled is going to be better than one that used less raw samples 24bit/128hz recording and synthetically scaled out. Wizard Emeritus what do you look for to detect synthetically scaled out. The existence of freqs in the samples that are impossible for the real instrument to generate. Like it or not my attack against VSL is because I in fact know what the hell I am talking about and you don’t. You don’t have the knowledge to know why RAW sample count is so important that VSL does not tell you. VSL is nothing more than a drop compared to the FOSS sample sets when you know where to go and are willing todo the right things. There is a formal book(you have to pay for) with instructional dvd for those using FOSS csound listing where to find the some of the sample material and happens to have the scripts to convert them as well. This is the thing not all the stuff for setting up and using FOSS set like VSL is free sometimes you have to pay for different conversion scripts. But those conversion scripts are not paying for the instrument files they generate. So csound comes from 1 place then book with scripts comes from a different place and the raw samples the base to the generated instrument files comes from somewhere completely different. This is normal. 3 individual parts used with each other replace VSL without it defects.

    Really Wizard Emeritus you already said you would not make instruments on your machine so there was no point me giving you the csound option right??? When you decide to be a jack ass and straight up say I will not do X the result is can make it impossible to get Y if getting Y in fact depends on doing X. Getting a FOSS equal to VSL depends on making instrument files for Linuxsample…. from raw either by your own skill or by using pre programmed scripts todo it. Either way its making instrument files on your machine not getting instrument files preassembled. Its like a wooden pre assembled book shelf vs kit book shell now if you need to get that up a tight stair case the one you can assemble in place is going to be better. Same applies to FOSS synth instruments since assemble them on your machine you can customize them to match what you are doing instead of having to match what you are doing to how they work.

    Lets say the sampler engine VSL is using is conflicting with something else you wish to use result you cannot use VSL samples without it. FOSS instrument from raws you can change the engine running the samples. I have told you want you need todo to not to have to use VSL and you are not interested in doing it. So if you are not willing to follow instruction you are the one who is the loser not me Wizard Emeritus. Why you keep on wondering why something does not exist because those who are willing to use the right method never have a need for it. You are no different to someone trying to use a horse whip to move a car.

  11. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus sorry if you get the package you would have found it has the 5 Orchestras of London that includes philharmonia creative commons.”

    SO now we are making up stories in a pathetic attempt to win a point that has noting to so do with the main point of this stream. You have still lost the challenge, and confirmed yet again you status as an admitted liar.

    What a loser!

  12. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus sorry declaring victory in this case is you being a complete idiot. You picked thing that if anyone looks proves you wrong.”

    THe only idiot here is the one who apparently still does not understand what he is being challenged to do. I have challenged you to provide the FOSS equivalent in all its aspects of what I have NOW in the form of the VSL symphonic orchestral sound. As of this time you still have not provided a packaged solution that I can download install and use that same way that I downloaded and used the VSL libraries. All you have done is expend enormous effort to denigrate the VSL, libraries, the users of the VSL libraries and myself. You have attempted to impose the pathetic line of bullshit about how evaluating sample libraries in general with ones ears is inaccurate on me. All of this in an attempt to “win” by hook or by crook whan you know you have lost.

    Save your insults and gibberish for someone else – its not working on me.

    By not providing for me a packaged solution that matches what I have from VSL, you have forfeited the challenge.

    Go away loser.

  13. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus sorry declaring victory in this case is you being a complete idiot. You picked thing that if anyone looks proves you wrong.

    FOSS sets you are looking for in 3 or more parts.
    1) raw samples
    2) script to turn samples into instrument files.
    3) software.
    That split does make sense when you want to compare csound vs linuxsampler vs fluidsynth vs other FOSS or commercial options.

    One set of raws can be used just staying inside FOSS tools to make at least 12 instruments files for 12 different play back systems. The fact you see commercial tools doing the same thing means you have to not looked how the FOSS side is shipped before asking.

    Think for one min once you bundle the raws into a instrument file each time you do it you consume more disc space on servers also cost one self more in downloads or processing if you decide to change tools. There is no logical reason to make what you are asking for in the form you are asking for.

  14. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus sorry if you get the package you would have found it has the 5 Orchestras of London that includes philharmonia creative commons.

    The samples incorporated into Presonus Notion 5 are from the London Philharmonic. two different organizations.
    There are sections of London Philharmonic under the same license as Philharmonia. Just because they are different organization does not mean they don’t use the same license in places. So not all the London Philharmonic samples in fact come with Presonus Notion 5 some are download and build. Yes the FOSS section of London Philharmonic samples is done one way the commercial section is done the other.

    Sorry Wizard Emeritus you have picked a product from mid air and don’t know how it formated in the hope it would win you the point. The one you chose in fact loses you the point.

  15. Wizard Emeritus says:

    And so the self admitted liar and fraudulent linux troll who styles himself oiaohm once again walks away from a challenge he cant answer. Not that he didn’t try his usual smokescreen walls of gibberish to weasel around what was required, but in the end he
    still hadnt produced his end of the challenge, and despite protests to the contrary, he still failed.

    And is still a loser

  16. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “So does it really incorporate the London Philharmonic samples no. Does it have means to download use the London Philharmonic samples yes. …”

    You are amusing when you attempt to change the subject sir. To begin with the sample set in the creative commons is from the Philharmonia Orchestra. The samples incorporated into Presonus Notion 5 are from the London Philharmonic. two different organizations. The rest of you post is pitiful garbage.

    And you still havent produced your end of the challenge, so you have still failed.

    loser

  17. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser its in the Australian medical journal on the side effects of fixing glue ear effectively. Where the person gets a section of hearing range between 40000hz and 55000hz and its not identical between people treated and depend on the range they get bats can be a problem well above normal human that caps out at best 20000hz. As far as I know from all medical reports I have see of it usage the procedure mostly only performed in Australia. This is the problem about being on the global stage you sometime run into uniqueness of the area of medical treatment.

    As far as I can tell (I have a cousin who had glue ear: she is also a qualified nurse, so she might be a good source of information) the condition affects the amplitude of the incoming sound, not the frequency.
    In fact she is not a good source of information. There are two levels of infection.
    Just the space behind ear drum and encroached on cochlea. Space behind the ear drum effects amplitude. The Cochlea itself when infection is that bad cuts down hearable freqs its minor-ally damaging that in the right place that allows it to drain so restoring full freq range + extra.. Basically it was first discovered when a glue is procedure went slightly wrong and the Cochlea was hit by mistake. As with all things in medical lots of things are found by mistake. Interesting enough the fluid in the Cochlea caused by infection in the area does not damage the hearing hairs just stops them from moving at all so as long as you can provide a path for it to drain the lost caused by it will be reversed. Yes the guess that the infection causing glue ear has not effected the Cochlea a lot of countries still make is badly wrong.

    Triffically useful in tuning pianos, that. Tell me. Which key or keys would 52 – 53 KHz compare to? The answer is none normally. Key word is normally. But crack in the structural frame of the piano that can happen in moving or weather condition’s at times will generate a tone between 52-53 Khz. Good part is these high freq noise appears normal before a piano starts losing its ability to hold tuning. The fact that my hearing does not cover the complete area. For diagnosing if a piano is still good recording at 128khz to capture the higher freq than humans can hear is good. This is the thing these high freq sounds should not be coming out most instrument if they are the instrument is broken some where and is in need of repair or replacement. Some old design electronic analog synths generate some high freqs as bi products and if that is not there you know what parts have failed. By the way without people treated with glue ear in Australia the link between high freq sound and failing piano would never been found. Its the audio equal to the strange radio noise before a earth quake it does not always happen but when it does it predicting bad things to come. Basically to anyone who can hear high freq there sound systems can be extend to generate it and when you hear high freq most case the instrument is broken. So we expect high freq on samples to be correctly cleared off.

    Well what do you know, a Notation package that has incorporated professional grade samples from no less than the London Philharmonic!
    Wizard Emeritus do go buy it and then watch it download the very mp3 you attempted to claim is not up to snuff because they were only 80kbs and I having to point out that they were 80kbs to 128kbs and that number is not a sign of quality or lack of quality without understand what was recorded. The reality its just contains a embedded script that download the London Philharmonic stuff and turns them into instruments so staying inside license.

    So does it really incorporate the London Philharmonic samples no. Does it have means to download use the London Philharmonic samples yes. This is your problem lets find some commercial bit of software to throw in my face without owning it and in fact knowing how it works. The fact that commercial software does that will you know except that what you are in fact looking for is a script not a package. Yes the commercial packages using FOSS sample sets are more often than not containing embedded script downloading the raws and producing instrument files from that.

    This is the problem Wizard Emeritus you have taken VSL as example of what you want. When in fact its not what you even see commercial products using FOSS sample set do. So you are asking for something you are not getting because the delivery from FOSS sets is using is different.

    This will not build instrument from raws is a major failing on your part Wizard Emeritus.

  18. Dr Loser says:

    So who is the idiot here not me.

    Denying it doesn’t make it any less the truth, oiaohm.

  19. Dr Loser says:

    Or to put it another, less polite, way, Fifi:

    Ossicles!

  20. Dr Loser says:

    So some of noise in 96khz and 128khz samples I can hear because I was deaf for the first 6 years of my life.

    Holy Bat Shit!

  21. Dr Loser says:

    That tid-bit was also confirmed in the 1998 professional compare of panio synthesizers at a University.

    You can’t just gibber at will and get away with it, Fifi.

    Your original claim: The hairs in your ear stick due to repeated exposure to the same frequency.

    Nothing to do with your further wall’o’gibberish.

    And also an extraordinary medical claim, which requires at least some evidence. Direct evidence. Evidence to the point. Evidence that talks about “hairs in the ear.” Evidence that talks about them “sticking.” Evidence that this has anything causally to do with “repeated exposure to the same frequency.”

    Your wild theories about “glue ear” also sound suspiciously like self-delusional paranoid nonsense, but I’ll give you that they have at least some — very minimal — credibility. As far as I can tell (I have a cousin who had glue ear: she is also a qualified nurse, so she might be a good source of information) the condition affects the amplitude of the incoming sound, not the frequency.

    Still, I admit. You have so very many things wrong with you, Fifi, that there’s a distinct possibility that one of your personal defects combined with “glue ear” in your youth to cause this apparently unique superior ability to hear notes in a suspiciously narrow band.

    Triffically useful in tuning pianos, that. Tell me. Which key or keys would 52 – 53 KHz compare to?

  22. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “https://musescore.com/groups/young-composers-group/discuss/172224

    Wizard Emeritus and its not that I have not presented one that you have totally ignored. So who is the idiot here not me. Number one you don’t have the hearing to proper assess them in the first place. Number 2 you have be ignoring ones I have suggested. Number 3 disregarding method.”

    You have a specific challenge to meet. All else that you have written is irrelevant. Eiter produce your proposed integrated FOSS package or admit that you have failed the challenge and go away loser.

    And pointing me to Musescore as your package doesnt count. If I had wanted to change composition tools by changing packages. I would have opted for this

    https://www.presonus.com/products/Notion-5

    Well what do you know, a Notation package that has incorporated professional grade samples from no less than the London Philharmonic! And its only $149.95US to boot!
    Regrettably its not for me, but you might be interested…

    Oh, I forgot…Your running Linux!…. Sorry…

    Loser.

  23. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “So Wizard Emeritus you have been asking for completely the wrong thing. What you want is a script FOSS world that assembles something like VSL. Of course is based from raws. Basically you are a idiot asking for the wrong thing so never ever going to get the answer you are after if you keep on asking the wrong question.

    No I have not been asking for the “wrong” thing sir. I asked you to produce a FOSS Symphonic Orchestral Sound Library Package that was the equivalent of what I have now from VSL. No matter how much you verbally twist and turn, no matter how many verbal insults you hurl, the fact of what I asked for will not change. And I will not change what I asked for period.

    You are free of course to, declare victory by your terms and move on. It will change nothing. You have still not given me any package that I can just download and use, which is one of the things I had when I acquired the Libraries from VSL. And that is just to get to the point where I can perform the evaluation of what you are proposing.
    You have still lost the challenge.

    Either comply or go away loser.

  24. oiaohm says:

    http://lists.linuxaudio.org/pipermail/linux-audio-user/attachments/20101208/4e8c0a2c/attachment.txt

    Wizard Emeritus this is most likely something you don’t want to see. If you had in fact joined the Linux Audio mailing lists you would have noticed that the sound sets they use are not assembled the way you are use to at all. At times you find scripts like this that assemble a selected kit. Of course I have not giving you a good one that convert the best raws by running a script into format straight for usage. Notice something by doing this scripts stays inside the source raw licenses.

    So Wizard Emeritus you have been asking for completely the wrong thing. What you want is a script FOSS world that assembles something like VSL. Of course is based from raws. Basically you are a idiot asking for the wrong thing so never ever going to get the answer you are after if you keep on asking the wrong question.

  25. oiaohm says:

    https://musescore.com/groups/young-composers-group/discuss/172224

    Wizard Emeritus and its not that I have not presented one that you have totally ignored. So who is the idiot here not me. Number one you don’t have the hearing to proper assess them in the first place. Number 2 you have be ignoring ones I have suggested. Number 3 disregarding method.

  26. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus
    IF you can not present a finished FOSS integrated Orchestral Sound Library with in memory sampler then I suggest that you just go away and admit defeat, loser.
    The funny part is I can show functional examples of FOSS intergrate Orchestral Sound Librarys that exist on youtube being used in final works. Of course due to the license issue I showed that final instruments cannot be shipped assembled in most cases means they are different.

  27. Wizard Emeritus says:

    Once again nothing that you have said can change the fact that you have not been able to produce an integrated FOSS sound library package at all. All the rest of your verbal drivel is irrelevant. Not only have failed the challenge, but all of your excuses, insults and irrelevant personal opinions have only served to reinforce that reality that there is no FOSS high quality symphonic orchestral sound library that can be just installed and used.

    IF you can not present a finished FOSS integrated Orchestral Sound Library with in memory sampler then I suggest that you just go away and admit defeat, loser.

  28. Deaf Spy says:

    I would rather start from raw sets…

    You won’t, lying illiterate lice-ridden fraud. You are totally incapable of it, and completely ignorant on this subject.

  29. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus sorry the stuff about human hearing is not bull crap. There was a completion between those with implants and those without for picking computer generated. Guess what those with implants were way more correct than those without.

    The reality here is human mechanics is something a lot of Music people totally disregard when claiming something is better.

    Before evolution change humans use to be able to hear up to 55000hz. Treating glue ear you break through a blockage in the ear restoring a section of that so that the fluid jaming up the ear can in fact fully drain restoring the 0-20khz. 44khz is over double what we can in fact hear. Quality of human hearing drops off once you cross 16khz in fact youtube for improved compression on lower than high quality videos strips everything about 16khz.

    Guess what the Lohengrin: Prelude to Act I – Wagner you choose Wizard Emeritus on youtube is not in high quality so the top end frequency above 16khz has been cut off of it. Even so you can see where it been clipped. So since your youtube sample is clipped the VSL example should be clearly beating it and it not. This is why I say ears can trick you but looking at wave form don’t. Wave form tells you a lot like if something has been clipped.

    Nor does it change the fact that you have not provided what was asked.
    What you are doing is like asking for a handy in the USA and wondering why you are not getting a mobile phone. FOSS artists more commonly build their own sound sets from raw where they have full control.

    Remember you said VSL takes many samples and mixs them into one. Do a freq map on VSL samples then notice how many freq are above 20khz. VSL is one of the most disgustingly dirty sound sets there is because they did not clean up after combined processing removing invalid freqs. You must not be able to hear the stuff that is wrong with VSL personally I would rather listen to SSO than VSL due to how much of a mess it is. Now if people were reviewing sound sets properly the mess VSL is would not be around.

    I would rather start from raw sets that are clean and do all the processing above that in clean and correct ways at least I am get proper results like it or not I am not deaf Wizard Emeritus but by the stuff you are attempt to put past me Wizard Emeritus I would recommend you go and get yourself a full complete hearing test.

  30. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “It does not change the fact that people doing FOSS music production don’t use stuff like VSL but roll their own. Part of the reason they roll own is more quality control and more legal clarity..”

    Nor does it change the fact that you have not provided what was asked. all the rest of your post is just nonsense and bullshit.

    Go away loser.

  31. oiaohm says:

    Of course having admitted that you have hearing problems, you probably cant hear the difference.
    Wizard Emeritus no I have not. This shows how little you understand about human hearing. There are 2 ways to be deaf for first 6 years if you life and recover hearing. 1 is glue ear what I had. Result in most cases is better hearing than the average from glue ear because of reduced wear and tear. The other is a cochlear implant interesting enough on average once normal person get to 16 years old you will have worse hearing than a person with a cochlear implant on freq detection only people who had glue ear will have better hearing pass the age of 16 than the person with cochlear implant. Yes if you after a person to tune a lot of instruments quickly by ear you will choose the person with the cochlear implant because it removes the ear fiber problem and their hearing does not get worse with age/wear the electronics are insanely wear resistant. Its the first example of successfully cyborging a human. Of course there is a downside with cochlear implant is directional detection of sound is hindered and it if stuffed up in fitting person will have no hearing at all so you are not going to do this to anyone with roughly functional hearing.

    Wizard Emeritus in fact you most likely cannot hear stuff I can. I know for sure you cannot hear 52000-53000hz and that I have because of what was done to fix my glue ear. Funny part is side effect of glue ear treated in Australia to result in 100 percent range recovery every single time. So some of noise in 96khz and 128khz samples I can hear because I was deaf for the first 6 years of my life.

    Mere words are inadequate to describe my reaction to this very, very, interesting tid-bit of medical observation.
    That tid-bit was also confirmed in the 1998 professional compare of panio synthesizers at a University. So as soon as someone picks a complex song to demo a sample set you know they are speaking out their ass because it does not matter how good of musical person you think you are limitations of being human means you cannot assess it correctly. Even a person with a cochlear implant cannot process a complex song in their brain and pull out the defects because human brain takes short cuts. Remember people tuning instruments play 1 note at a time not a song because its the only way you can do it has a human and get proper results . Now you want to tune instruments quickly you have a laptop or stack of tuned glass tubes sitting beside you listening to the sound telling you when a note is off so you can just play the scale quickly. One of the reasons why I was asked to tune instruments was I can do it a lot quicker than most it also surprised people I do it with ear plugs because I don’t need to hear the instrument. Please note those who can tune as fast as me don’t use their hearing because its not dependable enough even playing a basic scale quickly.

    As I have explained numerous times, a raw sample set is not a finished package. I am not buying raw samples from VSL and rolling my own, I bought an integrated package of sample library with virtual instrument and virtual instrument ensemble software that integrates into my music software as a VSL plugin. Either you provide the equivalent out of the box, or you don’t. Again, its that simple.
    It does not change the fact that people doing FOSS music production don’t use stuff like VSL but roll their own. Part of the reason they roll own is more quality control and more legal clarity..

  32. Dr Loser says:

    The hairs in your ear stick due to repeated exposure to the same frequency.

    Mere words are inadequate to describe my reaction to this very, very, interesting tid-bit of medical observation.

    Do go on, Fifi. Please.

  33. Dr Loser says:

    Go away loser.

    I take personal offense to that, Wiz.

    No wait, I don’t. You were referring to the tatterdemalion one selling his fishnet-stockinged wares under an Outback lamp-post, weren’t you>

    No wait, I do. Never use my name in connection with that worthless lying little ignorant tramp again, if you please.

  34. Dr Loser says:

    Do you know what industrial deafness does. The hairs in your ear stick due to repeated exposure to the same frequency. Does this only happen in noise work places no it does not.

    Would this be a similar issue to being both tone-deaf (as you evidently are, given your inability to distinguish between orchestral samples) and at the same time the unique possessor of the ability to move objects at a distance by some form of mental transmission via microwave radiation?

    It might very well be, Fifi. It might very well be. After all, you have crowed about the latter ability in the past.

    Generally speaking, you present as an incompetent deluded ignorant nutter, Fifi. But that is not what interests me here.

    Right now, you present as somebody with serious hearing difficulties.

    Have you consulted a doctor?

  35. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Funny part is if you get the one played by the real players of Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra the Horn attacks are off it its the real Orchestra player skill at problem. ”

    Funny I don’t have that problem with the performances that I have created using VSL. Of course the Vienna instrument is custom made and matched to their sample library, and the multisamples have been specially chosen to match the articulations of real thing. Of course having admitted that you have hearing problems, you probably cant hear the difference.

    Which begs the question as to why you have taken on this challenge in the first place.

    “Really http://www.arachnosoft.com/main/soundfont.php you want something like this instead where you have to go through it individually and contact each person to provide parts and get approve to use it commercially miss one party get sued???? ”

    This is not my problem. My challenge was for an integrated package that offers the same capabilities as VSL. You can either match it or you can not. Its that simple.

    “I first recommend Philharmonia Orchestra sample sets as a base why better quality players in fact better quality sampling stage resulting in better quality samples. They are not as low of quality as they first appear.”

    As I have explained numerous times, a raw sample set is not a finished package. I am not buying raw samples from VSL and rolling my own, I bought an integrated package of sample library with virtual instrument and virtual instrument ensemble software that integrates into my music software as a VSL plugin. Either you provide the equivalent out of the box, or you don’t. Again, its that simple.

    “So you still have not provided me with a suitable sample example to show VSL quality.”

    THen I guess all of the orchestral musicians professional and amateur who I have pointed to the VSL site and who were very impressed with it were all wrong in thinking that the demos were spot on, right? THe reality is that you are either lying in a pathetic attempt to not admit defeat, or you are a musical idiot with a tin ear.

    Either way its not going to work. You have not produced what the challenge required, ergo you have failed the challenge.

    Go away loser.

  36. oiaohm says:

    Perhaps Fifi assesses music by the vibrations on the hairs at the natural outlet of his behind.
    Deaf Spy being an ass. But this bring in ear mechanics. Do you know what industrial deafness does. The hairs in your ear stick due to repeated exposure to the same frequency. Does this only happen in noise work places no it does not. It happens when you are listening to music as well. Of course the hairs in your ears take so long to recover until they don’t. Yes there is a mechanical reason in the ear as well why you cannot assess a complex score properly for defects and it does not matter how skilled of a music person you think you are because even a short way in on a complex score your will be having gaps in your hearing. Understanding industrial deafness is key to understanding the kinds of scores that can in fact be properly assessed by humans for quality. Most music people don’t know how fast hair fibers in ear in fact recover and how much of X freq is required to temporary deafen you to it. Fun part is human brain knows when it deafened to a particular freq then proceeds to fill in the gaps. So if X instrument deaf you to Y freq and Z instrument should be producing and you know Z should be producing the freq and Z is not your brain filled missing tells you that Y freq is present when it not yes this is industrial deafness ringing in ears as well.

    The waveform on screen does not lie as it avoiding human defects in brain processing and ear mechanics.

  37. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus
    Horn attacks are all wrong. String sounds have no variety…. I can go on and on, buut I suspect that my observations are wasted on you.
    Funny part is if you get the one played by the real players of Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra the Horn attacks are off it its the real Orchestra player skill at problem. Yes there are a list of faults in the Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra players themselves of course a sample set make from a Orchestra where the players skills are problem does not make it better in fact it always make it slightly worse. Reason why I was not in the first place recommending that SSO sound set but there was no requirement to pick one of the worst representations of it particularly showing the sound stage fault that is a simple filter fix. If you look at the SSO raw sample wave forms you will notice bits of noise that should not be there. So the sample set in fact sounds like SSO group of old. Old sample sets from the time that the SSO one was recorded those noise frequencies are common. Old design sound cards and old design sound stages had some major faults.

    Since you were comparing to what you knew other Orchestras done out a sample of what SSO in fact produced as real players you have spotted faults and blamed them in the sample set when it is in fact the players. As you said your self some Orchestras are better than others and SSO was not a great one.

    I first recommend Philharmonia Orchestra sample sets as a base why better quality players in fact better quality sampling stage resulting in better quality samples. They are not as low of quality as they first appear.

    You have not provided a finished package that can just be installed and worked with as I was able to install and work with the VSL libraries. Therefore you failed the challenge, period.
    Maybe I have avoid that for a particular reason.
    I asked for a finished package, presuming that the FOSS community should at lease be able to assemble something that can just be worked with.

    Really http://www.arachnosoft.com/main/soundfont.php you want something like this instead where you have to go through it individually and contact each person to provide parts and get approve to use it commercially miss one party get sued???? Do read the usage carefully where its free for non commercial but commercial usage is contact everyone individually for approval. Or is it not better to work from correctly sourced raws and know you are legally free and clear.

    Yes lot of FOSS preassembled sets are how to go to jail do not collect 200 dollars without putting in even more effort attempting to contact people who contact information is no longer current that you must contact or not use their than building from raws that will in fact take less time and less legal risk as you know your source material.

    There comes a point Wizard Emeritus where you learn build from raws or close to raws in FOSS sample sets is a lot simpler than prebuilt FOSS set particularly from a legal point of view. Less parties to contact for approval. Less risk of missing someone and getting sued or someone making set forgetting to declare someone and getting sued.

    ANd I have played this demonstration for real orchestral musicians and they commented that it was so close that only a trained ear could tell the difference.

    Song choice was not about being able to clearly hear the difference or defects. How many non overlapping notes does that score have. How to hide the fact you have screwed up sample sets have instruments is blend other instruments in the demo. Isolated notes real musicians are more likely to pick up difference. There is a case of testing real orchestral musicians against piano synthesis in 1998 that first located that fault that more complex the score being played the poor grade of piano synthesis could be used and got away with. Yes they were being asked to rate the same group piano synthesis engines against each other playing different songs. So the example you picked is not matched to finding if VSL quality or not. This is not knowing what kinda of demo is required to show quality. Using a demo that is not designed to in fact show quality of the sound set is a huge mistake. Instead you used a demo that is advertising ware where they want product to look better than it really is.

    In fact there are two reason why the two SSO demos I provided sound better. Wizard Emeritus Why those other two youtube samples of SSO samples sound massively better is 1 a basic filter removing normal old record stage bad noise you fairly much have to-do this on all old sample sources someone not doing that deserves a kick your first chosen example has that in even applying the filter it still suxs but at least it not muddy. 2 instruments played faster and over lapping notes with each other so reducing the human detectable defect. I am not kidding when I say you need to use something that shows you the wave form in those more complex scores to be able to see the faults because you will not be able to hear all the faults in sample set and that is a human limitation because human brain can only process so much at a time and when it hit limit it fakes it so you believe it perfect. Of course when your score comes to a slow section where did that defect come from happens. Since that does not happen often person thinks they can barely tell the difference. Then they go and do a score like the first one you pulled up on SSO that is slow and then magically it is detectable as wrong all the time. This is not that the sample set has changed the reduced data human brain has to process is lower complexity score gives human brain more time to nit pick it.

    In fact Wizard Emeritus if you new what you were dealing with you should have pulled me up that the difference was not filters allow but the number of notes being played at once if you knew the problem. Once you pick that up you will notice that your sample song you used is also wrong. So you still have not provided me with a suitable sample example to show VSL quality.

    Basically don’t pretend now that you did not fall for the faster score hiding fault Wizard Emeritus as you did like ever other human does. More skilled person knows to pay higher attention to the slower notes where they can in fact process and hear difference.

    Remember you are meant to claim you know what you are doing and you cannot in fact choose the right demo to detect if it has defect clearly with human hearing.

  38. Deaf Spy says:

    don’t depend on human hearing when assessing samples

    Perhaps Fifi assesses music by the vibrations on the hairs at the natural outlet of his behind.

    Robert, if I were you, I would’ve been greatly ashamed to get support from something like Fifi.

  39. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus those is the Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra sample set. Funny how massively different it sounds. Guess what the two I just pulled out have finishing filters.”

    Unfortunately, to anyone who knows how orchestral instruments really sound, it is clear that while the pre and post processing the the creator did have made the playback morpanatable in some ways, all the pre and post processing in the in the world cant hide the fundamental inadequacy of the sample set. Horn attacks are all wrong. String sounds have no variety…. I can go on and on, buut I suspect that my observations are wasted on you.

    “By the way the Swan Theme one there done on Midi you can find the Orchestra that provide the Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra sample set playing it for real and compare the two and find they are very close.”

    No they are not.

    But the comparison that I set up between the real orchestra playing the Lohengrin Prelude vs. the VSL realization IS very close. ANd I have played this demonstration for real orchestral musicians and they commented that it was so close that only a trained ear could tell the difference.

    Have you bothered to listen to the Demo BTW, or are you afraid to be proven wrong?

    “No point attempt to dig you way out now Wizard Emeritus you link shows me clearly that you will throw away perfectly usable sample sets because you will not do the back homework to know how they are meant to be used to get good results and when you see someone who is not using a sample set correctly you will go that is junk.”

    Nope. it is you who have undercut yourself. You were asked to show me the FOSS equivalent package to what I have from VSL. I did not ask for a DIY project – I asked for a finished package, presuming that the FOSS community should at lease be able to assemble something that can just be worked with. I should have known better. all you have provided was a reference to the set of raw low quality samples that the London Philharmonia placed in the creative commons, period. All of your excuses, insults and crack-brained theories are irrelevant. You have not provided a finished package that can just be installed and worked with as I was able to install and work with the VSL libraries. Therefore you failed the challenge, period.

    “Learn from this Wizard Emeritus don’t depend on human hearing when assessing samples it will deceive you every single time. ”

    I have to admit that I have never heard such an astoundingly stupid claim in my life. Human hearing is the core mechanism for both making and appreciating music. No amount of bloviating on your part is going to change that. If you actually believe what you said, you are either delusional or a musical moron.

    Frankly it would be better for you if we chalk this whole stream of gibberish up to a pathetic attempt to win an unwinnable challenge by any means possible.

    “The advantage of being deaf for my first 6 years is I don’t fall for tricker the human brain does with audio Wizard Emeritus since I am not depending on my ears to work out what one is better.”

    Advantage? I take back what I just said. You are either delusional or a musical moron.

    Go away loser.

  40. oiaohm says:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaWxJ3hsGQ0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juDd67g3bq8
    Wizard Emeritus those is the Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra sample set. Funny how massively different it sounds. Guess what the two I just pulled out have finishing filters.

    By the way the Swan Theme one there done on Midi you can find the Orchestra that provide the Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra sample set playing it for real and compare the two and find they are very close. In fact it important to use correct finishing filters or pre filters with Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra sample set because their sound stage design was defective so particular frequencies that no Orchestra instrument produces got recorded and that makes the sound muddy.

    This is the catch with raw samples the skill of the user comes into play.

    Wizard Emeritus basically it about time you accept you failure. As you demo again with you Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra link that you don’t understand how to use raw sample sets. One of the key points is where and what it was recorded with. If you use a raw sample set without matching filter set results can be bad.

    No point attempt to dig you way out now Wizard Emeritus you link shows me clearly that you will throw away perfectly usable sample sets because you will not do the back homework to know how they are meant to be used to get good results and when you see someone who is not using a sample set correctly you will go that is junk.

    Reason why raw samples are normally not above 24 bit 44100hz is that recording at 96khz or 128khz just ends up recording a stack of frequencies humans cannot hear and instruments don’t produce that just because noise in filter processing.

    I now invite you to listen to the same Lohengrin prelude realized using the VSL string section. THis demo is located at
    Wizard Emeritus really you don’t understand human brain wiring do you. Download both extract the audio open in audacity and the like and look at wave form. You examples in fact show that VSL is off badly. There are pieces missing from the wave forms that should be there your brain is filling in the gaps. The reason why those bits are missing is post production filters are already applied on the VSL samples so this means you cannot remove it. Yes something that sounds muddy like Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra sample set without filters is fixable since you have the raw samples where something like VSL is not because you don’t have the raw samples to start off with so any correction error they make you are stuck with.

    Learn from this Wizard Emeritus don’t depend on human hearing when assessing samples it will deceive you every single time. You can select pieces of music that will not display a sample sets defect to human ears well and that is exactly what VSL has done but the defect will still show if you look at wave forms. The advantage of being deaf for my first 6 years is I don’t fall for tricker the human brain does with audio Wizard Emeritus since I am not depending on my ears to work out what one is better.

  41. Dr Loser says:

    His response to my demo should however put that bit of speculation on my part to rest.

    Remarkable claims demand remarkable proof, as they say.

    However, in this case, we are not talking about a remarkable claim. We are talking about an ignorant git who has no clue whatsoever about the domain, in this case the world of professional music, and has yet to claim such.

    Also, said ignorant git has yet to provide any evidence that anybody at all has access to a sample library that is preferable, or even equivalent, to the commercial VPL library.

    How about it, oiaohm? Pick on any of those challenges.

    You are an ignorant unmusical git and you have nothing.

    That is all. Nothing.

  42. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Why even bother, Wiz? Fifi is a musical moron. I don’t suppose the microwave buzzing in his head helps much, although he might be able to shift the viola passage back a couple of feet via telekinesis.”

    But my dear Doctor the whatever that styles himself oiaohm has not PROVEN himself a musical moron. His response to my demo should however put that bit of speculation on my part to rest.

  43. Dr Loser says:

    I start off by directing you to listen to the first minute of a recording from Youtube of a real orchestra playing the Prelude to Richard Wagners Opera Lohengrin.

    Why even bother, Wiz? Fifi is a musical moron. I don’t suppose the microwave buzzing in his head helps much, although he might be able to shift the viola passage back a couple of feet via telekinesis.

    Interestingly, Fifi has never claimed any musical ability whatsoever. This is very nearly unique, for Fifi.

    Low Temperature Physics? Fifi has not yet addressed the issue. But Fifi knows all.

    Carbon capture? Fifi has not yet addressed the issue. But Fifi knows all.

    Mass-Spectroscopy in the millionth of a second after the Big Bang? Fifi has not yet addressed the issue. But Fifi knows all.

    And yet, here we are with practically the only subject matter that Fifi has not once claimed practical exposure to. This is quite fascinating, in a way.

    Fifi lies all the time about his theoretical knowledge. And yet he almost always — except this one time — claims practical knowledge in the field.

    Not this time. I wonder why.

  44. Dr Loser says:

    wizard emeritus I told you that most high quality FOSS sample sets are not provide to any random person on web sites you need to have dealing with Orchestras that have their own recording studios lot of those studios are in fact higher grade than VSL has.

    Does that even make sense?

    It’s followed by the traditional Fifi Wall’O’Gibberish.

    Now, using all my talents as a translator from extra-terrestrial pidgins into bog-standard English, I descry that you, oiaohm are somehow claiming that an “elite” searcher for the FLOSS equivalent of the VPL will find it. And that non-elite searchers will not.

    This should be easy to prove. Show us the link, O Elite One.

  45. Wizard Emeritus says:

    So when all else is said and done, you can not produce a FOSS Symphonic Orchestral Library that can even begin to meet my challenge. All of your insults and innuendos on my skills as a musician are irrelevant to this reality. All of your attempts to malign what is one of the better of not the best commercial sample libraries available today Are not only irrelevant, but have provided general amusement to my peer musicians and engineers that I have shared your post with.

    Most of them wondered why I even bothered to waste so much time arguing with someone who was either a musical moron or a pathological liar.

    But since you have gone on about how one must compare the results of music realized with VSL with a real orchestra, I thought it would be instructive to provide an example for all of what is possible with VSL.

    I start off by directing you to listen to the first minute of a recording from Youtube of a real orchestra playing the Prelude to Richard Wagners Opera Lohengrin. If you do not wish to listen to the whole piece, listening to the first minute of so should set the stage for this demo.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMtRof9qJG8

    I now invite you to listen to the same Lohengrin prelude realized using the VSL string section. THis demo is located at

    https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Strings_Complete/Vienna_Dimension_Strings_I

    There are live orchestras that sound worse than what was produced in the VSL demo, and I say this as someone who has been making music for 40+ years and who also spent time playing in a real orchestra.

    Finally I thought it would be instructive for all if I could find the demo of what appears to be your candidate FOSS samples from the London Philharmonic in the only form that they are readily(the sonatina sample library) in action. While the excerpt given is not of the Lohengrin prelude, it does demonstrate the quality of the Philharmonic samples as available to anyone now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxxRLUxGUWg SOnatina

    While the person providing the demo, is apparently happy with the results of what he has created, it should be clear to anyone listening that, in comparison to the VSL vs. real demo I have provided, the results using the FOSS package are at best pitiful in comparison.

    I think sir that you may wish to consider giving up and accepting your failure.

    Again, you ail

  46. oiaohm says:

    wizard emeritus I told you that most high quality FOSS sample sets are not provide to any random person on web sites you need to have dealing with Orchestras that have their own recording studios lot of those studios are in fact higher grade than VSL has. There is a demo on youtube of the sample set I provided that is in fact better than the VSL demo you pulled in for balance and ability to have a real Orchestra perform the work. Yes that VSL demo does not have a real Orchestra performing the piece next to the software rendered VSL version why because if they did it would show it was crap. As I said you called it garbage when it not so you don’t deserve that because you are incomplete idiot. Besides you are crossing threads to bother me so by doing that you have lost right to links.

    The Philharmonia Orchestra in fact does have a demo of their sample set being used to play the same music as they really play. Yes there is difference but its not fatal difference. This is also true for all places that provide high quality FOSS sample sets.

    wizard emeritus basically you are a idiot in the music field who does not know what sample providers do to trick you into that there set is good when it in fact bad.

    Trick one is only providing software generated demo without a real played to compare against. Now having the same song played by different instruments you first attribute the difference different players and instruments so missing the error. Of course as CSI found that error is big enough that the end result is you cannot get a real Orchestra to perform the work. So you say listen to the VSL sample you put up only a idiot falls for that when it does not have a matching example played by the same players for real to be able to spot the defects and work out how bad they are.

    Trick two claiming insanely large bit values and claiming this somehow improves things. Reality there is only so much information to a note and if that is fully recorded it does not matter how much you increase file size its not going to improve anything or change anything for the better. In fact it can change things for the worse by ending up recording breath and hart beat noise from the player. This is how come insanely small disc space set can kick a set consuming 100G of disc space in quality as it has picked up less background garbage.

    Trick three bragging about there recording system as some how super good when in fact its out of date tech.

    Guess what VSL has done all three and you are too big of a idiot to have noticed it. Then when I show you a proper set that should have made you work out there are some major things wrong with VSL then go and attack it because you don’t understand it. At that point I am not gong to show you more because you are too incompetent to use it.

    wizard emeritus basically you have provided nothing that proves VSL is any good. All you have wizard emeritus is idiot blind faith without research. I even told you a mechanical test to use. The CSI making of sound track video documents that something is wrong with VSL. If you dig around you will find the same issue with all commercial sets. Yet Philharmonia Orchestra set I brought in there are examples of it in fact being used effectively test a score then having a real Orchestra play it and the result being in ball park.

    Like it or not you are a idiot on this topic. Wizard emeritus something to be aware of I was deaf for the first 6 years of my life. While deaf I tuned instruments when I got my hearing back people were still getting me to tune instruments. So using tools to confirm if a instrument is correct on tuning or wrong is something I do simply. Yes being exact using water tube resonance is hard at first. So I don’t depend on my hearing to go this instrument is correct I depend on physical tests to go this instrument is correct so a very scientific method. Something you learn from scientific method is even people who claim to have good ears for music have a section not hearing the sound and hearing what they want to hear. This taught me hey listen to this demo most of the time is wrong. Instead you need something you can put into like audacity or equal and compare one vs the other taking human incorrect judgment out the mix or you will not see the errors as clearly. Now if you not have real vs software generated to use you have to return to water tube and other methods like it. The fact you said here listen to this demo and did not provide anything to compare against showed you did not have clue as well.

    Now if you know how to test sample sets you will find there are quite a few high quality FOSS sets out their hiding mixed in with lot of trash ones. Yes wizard emeritus by your reaction to Philharmonia Orchestra showed you would have thrown good sets out without inspecting them properly because the recording rate seamed low when it was perfectly suitable. Basically I gave you a test and you complete 100 percent failed it wizard emeritus now if you had passed I would have given you some contacts. Maybe the next person you will not be such a idiot.

  47. wizard emeritus says:

    Since you still seem to have a comprehension problem, I Iask again, can you show mee a FSSsample library that has the same quality of as the symphonic orchestral sample library avaiable from Vienna Symphonic Library? Its a simple enough request, all you have to do is go to the VSLsite, review its offerings, listen to the demo’s of its capabilities (as I did), and then point me to a site that contains your supposed equivalent. If that site contains demonstrations of what is possible with your proposed substitutes capabilities, so much the better.

    So where is that information?

  48. oiaohm says:

    Except for startups. After you’ve made a million units or so, there isn’t much cost-reduction possible by increasing volume, but getting to that first million can be very expensive.

    Robert Pogson not exactly true by reducing number of chips on beaglebone due to reduced failure rates and higher speeds increases production takes a 45 dollar device down to 30 dollars. Yes cut price by 1/3 to 2/3 of it past price. This reduction was after beaglebone had well and truly crossed the million units.

    http://files.linuxgizmos.com/octavosystems_osd3358_block.jpg
    Yes interesting number change to soc removed having to place over 140+ parts on to the board. Each one a possible failure point. Remember every surface mount chip must be correctly aligned when it placed to solder correctly. So each extra piece you have to place is a extra item to place wrong and have a failed item. Result of SOC compaction is massive reduction in failure point that equals less failures so more units produced at same cost.

    Yes 1 million units can be very expensive but the issue here is SOC solution if you can get it at the right price is massively cheaper for the same volume. With smaller nm the new SOC in fact use less silicon per unit than the prior beaglebone as well.

    This is the fact with phones. The number of individual parts since 2011 in phones has been reducing. The over all cost shape in fact perfectly aligns to the number individual parts per phone. Of course at some point even that production was increase the cost of production had to drop under the cost it was required to produce the less phones the year before.

    Wizard Emeritus really believe what ever it take to stop you being an idiot butting in other threads expecting attempting to force an answer. Its not that I don’t have the answer it that people who think it fine to keep on disrupting threads over and over again while providing nothing related don’t deserve anything. Besides I gave you all the information you need to find the stuff if you would bother checking it out instead of just calling be a lier. No point debating any more with a idiot who is not going to bother checking out the facts. Besides here is the good thing was is the difference between 80kbs mp3 and 320kbs mp3 in audio sound?? The answer it depends what is recorded because there can be absolutely no difference. Single note from a instrument turns out not to be super complex. Guess what is true for the sample set you have attempted to pick on for quality yep 80, 96 and 128 is equal to 320kbs if used correctly. Used correctly by choosing the right material to encode 80+ kbps mp3 by all audiophiles tests is not detectable as different from raw and that is the reality. Now used random-ally without careful selection you need 320kbs all the time to be equal. Mp3 quality drops away when you have more unique information to encode than the bit rate. Yes many instruments don’t need more than 80kbs of data to 100 percent represent it. That point proved you were a idiot on the topic handed a high grade sample set and totally not able to identify it and totally incorrectly presuming it garbage. So what is the point showing a idiot who cannot identify a high grade sample set so why show any others and have you idiot attack their name. Basically Dr Loser reminded me that you an idiot on that topic and there is no point debating an idiot on a topic who does not know quality when it presented. I was going to let it slide but you had to push me. All Dr Loser was wanting todo is but in and attack me and here is you Wizard Emeritus who does not know high quality audio set from his ass doing the same thing. I attempted to walk way nicely but you would not take a hint Wizard Emeritus.

  49. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus I gave up on it because of people like Dr Loser butting in and me remembering you doing exactly the same thing so not deserving the full answer.”

    Nope. You gave up becauee you didnt have anything concrete to offer to my challenge except a lot of baloney. So you turned tail and ran with this lame excuse. That’s fine with me, because you still failed the test – not unexpected given your history as a self admitted liar and proven fraud.

  50. oiaohm wrote, “Cost/Dollars does not align to volume and never has.”

    Except for startups. After you’ve made a million units or so, there isn’t much cost-reduction possible by increasing volume, but getting to that first million can be very expensive.

  51. oiaohm says:

    http://www.iclarified.com/55098/tsmc-completes-design-of-10nm-a11-chip-for-apple
    Deaf Spy the details for the next iphone is here and if you dig deeper you will see where that other group has lost out on particular supply contracts for the current iphone.

    This is the problem everything I am saying I do have linked to. Your complete point of view based on one website done by a person who did not do detailed enough research to see most of their examples are in fact normal goings on of x company losing contract to y company. Then add in improved production methods reducing per item production cost causing total cost to drop. Cost/Dollars does not align to volume and never has.

  52. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy sorry I had linked to my writeln point of you and you started this off with incorrect information. The reality is smart phones are not in negative growth but restructuring. Yet for some reason you think by refering to writeln is a saving you. Next time you do I will take it as a full admission that you are wrong and are just attempt to detract your way out.

    The IDC link I had already provided mean you should have turn up with your link and gone opps I was wrong.

  53. Deaf Spy says:

    Deaf Spy that link of yours is written by a person who does not have a clue what is going on.

    Says the one that can’t understand how a simple thing like writeln() works. You’re no authority on anything, Fifi. Just a self-admitted liar and a fraud.

  54. oiaohm says:

    I am still waiting on the other thread for your answer, have you forgotten?
    Wizard Emeritus I gave up on it because of people like Dr Loser butting in and me remembering you doing exactly the same thing so not deserving the full answer.

  55. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy that link of yours is written by a person who does not have a clue what is going on.
    http://hackerboards.com/honey-i-shrunk-the-beaglebone-black/
    Notice what has happened here. Instead of sticking many independent chips in a device weld them all on one bit of silicon.

    So Already, companies that make mobile chips, sensors and other components are getting hit hard. has an interesting explain. Buying the individual parts are costly to production. Each pick and place chip on a board is another chance to make a stuffed board and placing each one costs time so limiting production speed.

    IDC volume numbers totally don’t show any major reductions. If you look at companies like Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company in their mobile chip production are not showing any reduction in fact showing growth. What happen. Companies specializing in making only a single kind of item and selling that to different ODM are finding themselves out of business being replaced by TSMC and others who are now doing SOC chips customized to ODM requests integrating all the features that use to be individual chips. Of course TSMC and others making SOC do make ram and cameras…. basically every single required part so one stop shopping.

    Strategy Analytics follows dollars not production volume. So Deaf Spy that complete link of yours is deceptive. The change is caused by what the SOC makers are doing.

    Murata Manufacturing Company around Apple having problems is explained simple. They lost the bid for the next iphone to TSMC and TSMC has won the right for some of the parts for the existing iphone Murata was making so really horrible for them so of course their profits are down.

    Sorry the link Deaf Spy has brought to back his case means he does not understand what number he was looking at. I gave the IDC volume numbers that show pure growth. Production does restructure from time to time.

    Remember each pick and place chips has to be placed on to a board individually. So if you cannot increase factory sizes due to power limitations cause by pollution production limitations the only other way to increase production is reduce time spent per final product. Simplest way to reduce time per final product reduce number of items in it. Yes SOC makers are winning. 1 chip to board is way faster than 3 or 4. Of course the result of the change to more in SOC will equal some companies going under. This SOC issue effects people making phones, routers…. lots of different things.

    Looking at one market is isolation is method to make a idiot out of yourself. There is still just as much profit in the smart phone market to make as their was in 2011 only one catch the only ones getting a nice slices are the SOC makers and ODMs.

    Sorry the link to save yourself just doomed yourself for being an idiot Deaf Spy I gave the IDC link that showed that the
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-04/are-smartphones-doomed-to-the-same-fate-as-personal-computers
    link was crap.

  56. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” So Deaf idiot stop calling me Fifi with you have made more errors than I have and I have let them slide.”

    It seems to me you have earned that name, Mr. Self admitted Liar and proven fraud.

    Deal with it.

    I am still waiting on the other thread for your answer, have you forgotten?

  57. Deaf Spy wrote, “people prefer to use PayPal when buying from anywhere east of Budapest instead of giving their credit cards.

    I don’t use PayPal and China works for me.

  58. oiaohm says:

    http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2048511
    Deaf Spy this is 2012 when Samsung stuffed it. There is not a single android ODM vendor who at some point has not made a kernel mistake. Some more in face than others.

    Now saying the problem is only China is complete ignoring history of where the problems are coming from. Now when windows phone was more popular there was ODM vendors making flawed drivers for Windows Phone including an example of a debugging driver like just has turned up for a Linux Kernel. Developers not facing independent audits do all kinda of stupid things.

  59. oiaohm says:

    Fifi, speak only if you have something to say about writeln().
    Deaf Spy what you caught out making stuff up so now you have to refer to something to happened in a different thread to defend yourself.

    So please explain why I should not be asking you in every other thread to explain why you believe smart phone market is reducing when it is not. So Deaf idiot stop calling me Fifi with you have made more errors than I have and I have let them slide.

  60. Deaf Spy says:

    Fifi, speak only if you have something to say about writeln().

  61. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy sorry bad kernel are not a China only thing. Linux kernel mainline removed /dev/mem due to security issues. Samsung restores /dev/mem under another device name so they don’t have to rewrite their video card driver. Worst the permissions they set that with was anyone write. Yes /dev/mem is direct access to all physical memory and that was a few year back.

    If you go looking you will find USA, UK, German and lot of other countries have made screwed up OS kernels.

    http://routersecurity.org/bugs.php
    Deaf Spy basically spend some time reading. It does not matter if the product is closed or part FOSS it can be backdoored. The ones that are normally clean are the products that allow you to replace the lot with your own built. Wait the USA FCC is recommending against that. Maybe this recent issue will make them reconsider their position.

  62. oiaohm says:

    Deaf Spy my IDC numbers is not guessing. No need to guess. Only section of phone market in complete free fall is Microsofts.

    http://www.cnet.com/au/products/hp-elite-x3/
    Look at it carefully. No x86 processor so most Windows applications don’t run. Might dock but lacking the expected applications really ends up disappointing end users.

    https://www.yahoo.com/tech/meizu-unveils-pro-5-ubuntu-212356420.html
    Notice the BQ Aquaris M10 Ubuntu Edition is mentioned for providing the same functionality of full ubuntu when docked as Microsoft sells as Continuum. The sad part here is Microsoft Continuum is coping what early Ubuntu/android hybrid did that MaruOS is really going to be a continuation to.

    No other company is close to offering this yet. It successfully empowers a small thingie to integrate properly with a large-form display and keyboard.
    So this line is complete crap there are other companies offering this just Ubuntu not Windows.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzc0uMXGFBY
    Reality this was 2012. The issue is working out how do the connections without on going issues resulting in complete device failures. Microsoft design has not solved those problems.

    Basically if all you have to hold up is Microsoft is doing Continuum you are in fact holding up nothing. Microsoft has to do Continuum because that is what the up coming competitors for Android being Ubuntu for Phones and MaruOS are doing and they in fact have applications for arm chips.

    Normal problem here Microsoft claims to invented something and be first at doing something when they are in fact second or worse.

    Nothing in Windows phone 10 is Microsoft number 1 at doing.

    Please note none of the Windows Phones 2016 releases have altered IDC downwards trend on Windows phone numbers being sold. Android and Ubuntu for phones numbers are increasing.

    Windows Phone: This past year was another challenging year for Windows Phone as shipments were down 18% in 2015 to 29.2 million units with roughly 95% of that volume coming from Microsoft (or Nokia) branded devices. The recent MWC conference in Barcelona showed a few new products from partner OEMs although it remains unclear how serious the Windows Phone offerings will be from OEMs.
    Please read this carefully so in Windows Phone companies like HP are getting bugger all yes full IDC numbers do include what vendor is getting lion share.

    5 percent of 30 million is a 1.5 million market split between every non Microsoft vendor. You are going to have major trouble doing decent size production runs to keep costs down.

    If you had watched hackerboards recently you would have seen –Honey, I shrunk the BeagleBone Black!– This is something important. To reduce production cost to be profitable you want to merge all parts of device if possible into a single bit of silicon. Todo that you need to ship over 500 000 units. So at 1.5 million there is only just enough space for 1 other phone maker other than Microsoft todo any customization and make a profit.

    If you look closer again at the HP phone you said look at you will find its not a new chipset for HP but a chipset that is used in Android phones. So hardware development is happening in Android with those making windows phones taking that doing stunts to appear to be inventing things.

    Nothing new in Microsoft phone camp other than fancy advertisement. Hardware old, Software ideas old. Not a place you expect to see some new break through feature.

  63. Deaf Spy says:

    In the meanwhile, ARM’s and China are losing trust:
    http://thehackernews.com/2016/05/android-kernal-exploit.html

    Not that this will decide the fate of ARMs, but will make some customers think twice before buying from China. Just how people prefer to use PayPal when buying from anywhere east of Budapest instead of giving their credit cards.

  64. Deaf Spy says:

    And how do you come with this metrics, Deaf Spy?

    This is not a metric. It is a guess. Backed with some research, indeed, but still a guess. Consider Continuum. No other company is close to offering this yet. It successfully empowers a small thingie to integrate properly with a large-form display and keyboard. Something that other platforms can’t do, simply because they are not even designed with such an idea in mind. Then consider what MS’s partners are doing, take for example HP with their W10 phone.

  65. oiaohm says:

    Fact is, smartphone market registered a negative growth.
    Deaf Spy what numbers are you reading. You read do need to read carefully.
    http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS41061616
    Volume smartphone market is still in positive zone.

    So you are the deceptive little one??? Deaf Spy or could not read one and deceived yourself??

    Smartphone production costs are dropping this leads to the volume of dollars people are paying for a smart phone dropping. So over all value of the smartphone market has dropped but the over all opportunity for profitability to companies making phones has not moved at all. Lower production costs equal smaller market in dollars to make the same amount of profitability. So yes it appears that the Smart phone market has magically reduced when all that has happened is methods of production have improved. Also there is another problem at about 1.5 billion units is in fact capping out production limit on a lot of parts. Yes a market making physical items cannot expand for ever before running into walls. Slow but steady growth in smart phone market until 2020 is basically bringing on more factories to meet demand. 6% per year is about as fast as production can expand. Double digit expand was only possible due to existing excess supply.

    But, too many people will just have their smartphone repaired.
    Deaf Spy really have you looked at the newer ones. The cheaper production combined with production at limit equals forget all hope of repair for a lot of models as there are no spare parts and they are not designed to disassemble without damaging parts.

    The ones who will redefine the smartphone will be Microsoft this time.
    Unlikely. If you look at the IDC numbers you will notice Microsoft sinking like a stone. Microsoft is down to being the only company making Windows Phone.

    Ubuntu for phone is already on sale in China by Meizu Technology Co. Personally I more likely bet on a cat fight to break out between all the different companies in China making phones with their own OSs bring something new to the table than putting any hope in Microsoft doing anything major in the Phone market in the next 3 years. We already see the signs of this with coloros and the like. Yes Coloros shipped in the last 12 months more units than Windows Phone but it was just stacked in and counted with Android.

    The wall to Microsoft doing anything major in the phone market in the next 3 years is the fact intel is giving up on x86 phones along with AMD and others. So magically offering PC applications on phones with a dock as a option for Microsoft no longer exists. Microsoft has missed a key window completely.

  66. Deaf Spy wrote, “The ones who will redefine the smartphone will be Microsoft this time.”

    And how do you come with this metrics, Deaf Spy? By looking at the ceiling on a rainy Sunday afternoon?

    BTW, we had only a few waves of light rain. I was actually able to receive my new alternator, mix some potting soil and plant a few trees and strawberry crowns in the drier periods. The ground is damp but not wet/soggy so it’s very workable. I expect I will plant corn and onions this afternoon. Heck, I might fire up the rototiller from China.

  67. Deaf Spy says:

    Fifi, you are so irrelevant that it hurts. Anything new to share about writeln(), you ignorant, lying little one?

  68. Deaf Spy says:

    The Chinese make what people need, not what has dozens of useless features.

    Bwaha-ha-ha!

    Right, that is why Huawei are constantly increasing the specs in their models.

    Fact is, smartphone market registered a negative growth. Show is over. Smartphones are heading down the road of PCs. Market gets saturated. Only Google’s Forced Update March can help, but most people, like you, can stay with their low end Android update-less and security-deprived phones for years. Yeah, smartphones tend to break easier than PCs, because you simply carry them around. But, too many people will just have their smartphone repaired.

    The ones who will redefine the smartphone will be Microsoft this time. Apple seem to have lost their way.

  69. oiaohm says:

    Microsoft with their Continuum technology.
    Little problem. Ubuntu on Phones or MaruOS(android debian hibrid) Basically the same idea with one major difference. Both have huge volumes of Applications built for arm and Intel themselves have given up making x86 mobile phone chips so massively limiting Microsoft Continuum technology due to lack of Arm support in Microsoft side.

    1) Transferring pictures from their smartphone to wherever, so they won’t have to use some slow online service or buy new MicroSD cards. But anyway, let’s assume they want to use Google Photos, here are some other things…
    Transferring photos between phones directly without using online service.
    http://www.howtogeek.com/138307/how-to-use-android-beam-to-wirelessly-transfer-content-between-android-devices/
    That has been happening since 2013. Adding in wifi supporting SD cards.

    2) Printing
    direct printing is possible from Android phones with right brands of hardware.

    3) Writing reports (unless students are no longer required to write reports… I know I am, and I even have to make a stupid “poster” for it in powerpoint). Or write stuff for work.
    Ubuntu for phones and MaruOS both open question how long will this one last. Number of places going Libreoffice open this up.

    4) Work from home
    Again depends on the work. Some businesses these days 100 percent operate from phone.

    5) Update their wordpress blog or their small-business wordpress website
    Again this is something easy todo from Ubuntu for Phone or something like MaruOS.

    They could also spark interest in multimedia editing, but that is a painful topic to discuss, due to Microsoft’s failure (of almost FOSS proportions) to make an iMovie and a FinalCut clone worth using, you know, just by mimicking the features…
    Not that straight forwards.

    https://opentoonz.github.io/e/ most recent but this is also ignoring what happened with Lightworks and other products like it. We are watching the biggest companies behind doing multimedia work giving up on the idea of paying for closed source instead going after FOSS even worse for Apple and Microsoft the first thing they do once they stop is port to normal Linux. So path of multimedia that got Microsoft and Apple going is dissolving under foot.

  70. Deaf Spy wrote, ” the mobile market is slowing down to a screeching halt as per this year. It is a billion market with a tiny margin”.

    Well, if you can’t make money selling millions of units, you should not be in business. The Chinese make what people need, not what has dozens of useless features. They can make money selling smartphones just as they can make money selling welding rods despite freight costs.

  71. Deaf Spy says:

    Here are some things they need PCs for.

    Funny thing is that the company, that is closest to offering a solution for a smartphone to do all these tasks is… Microsoft with their Continuum technology. I expect they will focus heavily on it over next couple of years.

    Btw, Robert, the mobile market is slowing down to a screeching halt as per this year. It is a billion market with a tiny margin and a flock of Chinese producers that can survive on it. Both Apple and Samsung are seeing hard times for their smartphone divisions.

  72. kurkosdr says:

    *as efficiently* small cheap fondle-thingie = *as efficiently* in small cheap fondle-thingie

  73. kurkosdr says:

    but it is getting old and may not be replaced.

    This. Any PC from 2010 can do anything a home user needs apart from running games like Witcher 3. Essentially, in 2010 (late 2009), Microsoft and Intel made a near-perfect product.

    PCs are like televisions now, kept until they need replacement because of malfunction. Sure, there are the enthusiasts who want to have the latest whatever, but for most people their existing PC is “good enough” ’till it dies.

    Meanwhile, smartphones, and especially Android, can be made artificially obsolete because of lack of security patches for older devices (*cough* Galaxy Nexus *cough*) and Android’s constantly increasing bloat (Play Services keeps getting bigger, to the point it suffocates old phones). So, Android’s growth is ensured.

    But… people not needing a PC? Oh boy. Here are some things they need PCs for.
    1) Transferring pictures from their smartphone to wherever, so they won’t have to use some slow online service or buy new MicroSD cards. But anyway, let’s assume they want to use Google Photos, here are some other things…
    2) Printing
    3) Writing reports (unless students are no longer required to write reports… I know I am, and I even have to make a stupid “poster” for it in powerpoint). Or write stuff for work.
    4) Work from home
    5) Update their wordpress blog or their small-business wordpress website

    So, unless you provide a way to do all this thing *as efficiently* small cheap fondle-thingie, people still need a PC, but do not need to buy one.

    Now, back on topic, Microsoft could spark customer interest for new computers if they played the gaming card right, aka treat it like a game console, and post “hardware levels” computers need to meet and gaming publishers need to adhere to. By stopping the system requirements arm race, the PC gaming market could become mainstream again instead of being dominated by hardcores with desktop rigs. They could also spark interest in multimedia editing, but that is a painful topic to discuss, due to Microsoft’s failure (of almost FOSS proportions) to make an iMovie and a FinalCut clone worth using, you know, just by mimicking the features…

  74. DrLoser wrote, of PCs, “Over a billion, in fact.”

    Smartphones crank out such numbers annually. Apparently only a tiny fraction of humanity needs/wants a legacy PC but many more enjoy a smartphone. This may explain why FB, Twitter, etc. encourage terse communications and images rather than words. As I write this from my Lazy Boy, using a wireless keyboard, while observing the neighbour’s plum trees in bloom, I can appreciate why, but I still can’t deal well with small screens.

  75. Dr Loser says:

    Shouldn’t that headline be “Misers like Robert Pogson cannot afford a PC?”

    Because, strangely enough, there are an awful lot of the things out there. Over a billion, in fact.

    There are people living in Reunion who are happy to own a PC, Robert. Reunion. The original home of your spurious four-points-on-a-spreadsheet claims for FLOSS supremacy.

    The reality here is that there are many, many people (though not all) who can satisfy their domestic needs via a mobile phone or a tablet.

    And then there’s the market that actually pays a decent margin for PC hardware, which is to say the corporate market.

    It ain’t going away before the Rapture, Pog.

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