Intel Cuts Chips – Wintel Is Officially Dead

“The company poured billions of dollars into its mobile business, but Intel failed to unseat market leader ARM. Atom is available in just a handful of smartphones, and the tablet market is declining. PC makers are replacing tablets with detachable devices and hybrids.
 
The Atom product line has been in trouble for some time. Atom started off with a bang in netbooks, but its fortunes have sagged since then. Intel’s mobile chip updates haven’t followed a set timeline, and the last Atom chips for servers were released in 2013.”
 
See Intel cuts Atom chips, basically giving up on the smartphone and tablet markets
Think about it, folks. Despite having the best fabrication technology in the world, Intel could not squeeze x86 into a good mobile chip. ARM selling to Qualcomm/Mediatek/Samsung/etc. is more efficient than Intel doing it all in house. QED

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
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92 Responses to Intel Cuts Chips – Wintel Is Officially Dead

  1. Wizard Emeritus says:

    I note that the musical moron who styles himself oiaohm has decided to run away once again rather than admit he has failed the challenge that was put to him.

    Since I have no intention of wasting the time of those who are posting in the thread that he is now trolling his baloney in, I will confine my most likely final response to his idiot drooling on music.

    When posed the same challenge that I posed to this blogs proprietor, Mr. O. proceeded to jump in and take up the challenge. His “answer” to my challenge was to give a URL to single raw unprocessed set of samples in low quality mp3 format which the London Philharmonia have placed in the creative commons for all to use. NO instructions on how to make this raw blob of bits into a offering similar to VSL’s package. VSL’s package came with an in-memory sampler to especially created and tuned to render their sample library into a set of high quality virtual instruments. Mr. O’s proposed substitute came without any of the components (in-memory sampler, configuration info) that would be needed to evaluate it. Instead I was told that in true FOSS tradition, I would have to work that part out myself. When pressed about the shortcomings of his proposed substitute, Mr O. responded by denigrating the quality of the VSL offering and indeed anyone who used commercial packages like it, myself included. When asked repeatedly for a package that matched what I had from VSL, he responded nothing but verbal abuse. When he was informed that his inability to produce a package meant that he had failed the challenge, he continued to insist that his “offering” was that package and I did not know what I was talking about. And when he was confronted with the URL’s that would allow him to make a side by side comparison of a particular piece of classical music as rendered by a real orchestra vs. the orchestral piece being rendered by VSL… He responded with silence, and has now moved off to commenting on another topic on this blog.

    To no one’s surprise, the truth is that there is the only FOSS Sample library that is available to anyone is a pale pitiful shadow of commercially from VSL. The irony is that the cost of license this library is only a fraction of the cost of time and effort that needs to be expended hunting down what little is available in the FOSS domain, assembling the components needed to play back what is available, and the loading and tweaking the playback. All to get a result that is, as I said, a pitiful shadow of what I use now.

    So much for FOSS, and so much for oiaohm.

  2. Dr Loser says:

    So, let’s see. This entire conversation appears to revolve around the question of whether Musician X can achieve Musical Result Y via:
    a) Paid-for technology (say, the VPL library or others)
    b) FLOSS

    Now, it’s fairly obvious that Musician X can achieve Musical Result Y via (a).

    Despite the more desperate efforts of Fifi, there is no evidence whatsoever that Musician X can achieve Musical Result Y via (b).

    I like to think that we are all on the same page here. (Put down the tin cups and spoons, Robert.)

    Now, here’s the thing.

    Who cares, either way?

    You don’t care, Robert. You have no musical talent whatsoever.

    ram doesn’t care.

    And Fifi doesn’t even understand the question.

    So, a small qualifying test here.

    Anybody who can play an instrument, any instrument, to the equivalent of Grade 8 in the UK — which qualifies you for entry to a Music College, not actually performance

    All of you, please raise your hands, right now.

    I don’t exactly see a forest of hands.

  3. Dr Loser says:

    Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.

    H. L. Mencken

    ex Africa semper aliquid novum.

    You do, of course, realise that both of these quotations are completely irrelevant to the question at hand, ram?

    Well, you probably don’t. You’re the sort of nutter that thinks that any quote at all will serve as an “I win the Internets” argument.

    It doesn’t, you know. Nutter.

  4. ram says:

    Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.

    H. L. Mencken

  5. Dr Loser says:

    Separately, but related, we have discovered a “golden ear” panel of serious musicians. We’ve found the more vitriolically they object to a piece of music the greater hit it becomes with the general public. This is proving to be an economically useful discovery.

    I rather doubt that. Citation needed, once more.

    I’m quite prepared to accept that a digital score in 2016 that ungruntles professional musicians will make money.

    I’m also of the opinion that you would have to go back at least a century to find it otherwise. Which means that I seriously doubt that you have found the Goose that Lays The Golden Egg on this one.

    Always the way, with FLOSS types. “Abilitas non presentas, ad Astra!”

    Trouble is, if you are an incompetent idiot with no ability, somebody else will always get there first.

  6. Dr Loser says:

    <blockquoteAs one might expect most professional musicians can tell the difference between a $1500 ukelele and a $15 one, the vast majority of the general public can not. In fact, they can seldom distinguish between a grand piano and a vibraphone.

    I am going to contradict the Wiz here. This is sheer, unmitigated, indefensible nonsense. Or, to put it another way, two cites needed.

    Have you ever heard somebody play a $15 ukelele, Robert? You have not. Do not pretend that you have. You were being parsimonious with the truth.

    Anybody who cannot tell the difference between a battered old unmaintained out of tune stand-up piano in a pub — let alone a baby or grand piano, whose stringing, keying, and actions I recommend to you, Robert, as an interesting exercise in acoustic mechanics — and a vibraphone … such a person is not merely tone deaf.

    Such a person is basically a blithering idiot.

    Do you wish to defend yourself from the charge of being a blithering idiot, Robert?

  7. ram quoth, “Best to make music with a tune.”

    I agree, but there does exist horrid music that sounds like a building crumbling in slow motion or bowels moving or …. I think it’s a stretch to call it music except that the creators are musicians and they deem it so. Some of the best music I have ever experienced was also on the fringes like a crazy percussionist that warmed up the crowd before a “modern dance” performance I once attended with a girlfriend. He started playing the usual instruments and then got up, wandered the stage, and improvised on anything he could hit. It was wonderful. There was a reason that was so good. The main performance, the dance, turned out to be a piece designed by a “creative” who was way over the hill… skinny folks dressed in black hopped around the stage and would periodically pause to shake their hands… We both wanted to leave in the middle of the dance but were too shy to ask the other to leave.

  8. ram says:

    Yes, as a friend of mine says: “Best to make music with a tune.”

  9. The Wiz wrote, “Out of curiosity, since you apparently do not know what the standard orchestral instruments are, why are you commenting in this stream?”

    I was commenting on how to download the files automatically rather than singly/manually doing so. I don’t really care how folks make music as long as it tickles my ears.

  10. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “As one might expect most professional musicians can tell the difference between a $1500 ukelele and a $15 one, the vast majority of the general public can not. In fact, they can seldom distinguish between a grand piano and a vibraphone.”

    The vast majority of the general public probably have little exposure to any acoustic instruments at all. Everything produced nowadays, including recordings of “real” instruments of any kind, has some coloration.

    The difference is that in this case we are talking about software for creating orchestral music. And whatever you may think about music performed by a symphony orchestra vs. Orchestral compositions produced “in the box” , the fact remains, IMHO, that least in the area of symphonic orchestral instruments, one can get closer to real by using a carefully produced sample set like VSL than anything that can be cobbled together for free from FOSS sources.

  11. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Of course, no sample set can ever really do a convincing emulation of an orchestra that would fool a professional musician. ”

    Perhaps, but in light of what is in the Lohengrin Demo from VSL that I mentioned previously, I would wonder about that.

    Do Listen and tell me what you think.

  12. ram says:

    Curious all this discussion/argument about using samples and “sample quality” to imitate an orchestra. Of course, no sample set can ever really do a convincing emulation of an orchestra that would fool a professional musician. On the other hand, to fool the vast bulk of the public the samples don’t even have to be very “good”.

    Currently I’m involved in some “focus group” testing, and the results are amusing. As one might expect most professional musicians can tell the difference between a $1500 ukelele and a $15 one, the vast majority of the general public can not. In fact, they can seldom distinguish between a grand piano and a vibraphone.

    Separately, but related, we have discovered a “golden ear” panel of serious musicians. We’ve found the more vitriolically they object to a piece of music the greater hit it becomes with the general public. This is proving to be an economically useful discovery;-)

  13. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “It doesn’t look complete. Piano isn’t there, not even in percussion.zip. Where’s piccolo? Is it a flute?”

    A piccolo is an orchestral instrument that is a member of the flute family, It sounds an octave higher than a flute Robert Pogson.

    Out of curiosity, since you apparently do not know what the standard orchestral instruments are, why are you commenting in this stream?

  14. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “TV series such as CSI,..”

    Where is the FOSS package that is the equivalent of VSL? You have thus far provided nothing other than a lot of irrelevant blather. What I expect from you is something that I can download install and compare to the output that I can get from VSL.

    You either have it and or you don’t

    So do you, yes or no?

    P.S. You may want to listen to the Lohengrin – Prelude Demo at

    https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Strings_Complete/Vienna_Dimension_Strings_I

  15. DrLoser wrote, “You’ve never even done it once, have you?”

    I’ve used wget and sed hundreds of time. It takes a few minutes to set it up and you’re done.

    wget -O stuff http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/make_music
    grep “select name=” stuff > stuff2
    cat stuff2|sed -e s”/value=\”/\n/g”|sed -e s”/\”.*/.zip/”|sed -e s”/^/wget\ http\:\/\/www.philharmonia.co.uk\/assets\/audio\/samples\//” > stuff3
    then delete a few spurious lines and add
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/percussion/percussion.zip

    The result is
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/banjo.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/bass_clarinet.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/bassoon.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/cello.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/clarinet.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/contrabassoon.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/cor_anglais.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/double_bass.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/flute.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/french_horn.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/guitar.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/mandolin.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/oboe.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/saxophone.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/trombone.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/trumpet.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/tuba.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/viola.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/violin.zip
    wget http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/assets/audio/samples/percussion/percussion.zip

    It doesn’t look complete. Piano isn’t there, not even in percussion.zip. Where’s piccolo? Is it a flute?

  16. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser note that Wizard Emeritus was waiting on a answer. And as troll you that does not in fact know anything on this topic has to but in.

    Dr Loser go find the CSI making video covering the theme song and work out I am not the fraud this time. Wizard Emeritus is the fraud this time and has been too taken in by advertising material.

  17. oiaohm says:

    TV series such as CSI,
    Wizard Emeritus you really do need to watch the making video covering the theme song of CSI. If you do you will find something really horrible. The theme song was send to a real physical orchestra 4 times. Each time absolutely failed conductor and composer could not work out what was going on at the time why the score produced by VSL sounded good and score by real physical orchestra was so off to the point it never sounded right heck the score did even seam workable for some insanely odd reason in the end the producer declared they had to go with the VSL sound.

    There is something fatally wrong with VSL silent stage. It is a minor error that causes big problems. VSL silent stage does not control air pressure of the stage. So all instruments are recorded under different pressure conditions. There are other silent stages around the world like Philharmonia Orchestra one that in fact has pressure control.

    If you had used mp3 files from Philharmonia Orchestra to sound font you might have noticed there was something oddly consistent between the tones of the instruments compared to VSL that is lacking it and this might have made you wake up to the issue. Reality Wizard Emeritus has not had the skill todo this.

    Have 2 million+ samples that due to bad recording method are in fact pressure miss matched to each other is absolutely worthless when you want to have your song performed by a real Orchestra under a single atmospheric/pressure condition.

    Yes even professionals who don’t know better are totally screwed over by VSL and other commercial sound font effects as CSI song making of shows and due to time running out forced to use the computer generated form.

    Yes controlling humidity and temperature are keys as well as both can also throw tones off. So if you don’t want to end up like CSI where they had to give up using a Physical Orchestra and just use computer generated you need to source yourself a better quality sound set.

    Interesting enough none of the commercial sound sets have been produced from a correctly construction of sound stage to produce instrument to instrument consistency. Yes is really easy to make a noise proof stage. Its a true pain to make a noise proof and pressure and temperature constant and humidity constant stage that will not end up suffocating the artists.

    Also claiming 80kbps mp3 is in fact incorrect information that shows how little you looked Wizard Emeritus each instrument has in fact had its mp3 encoding speed selected for the least damage while maintaining max compactness. Its between 80 to 128kbs. The banjo stuff is all 96kbs. So there is a lot more effort into what Philharmonia Orchestra has done. Philharmonia Orchestra has done a lot of work on compactness not to consume the living heck out of hard drive space for no particular good reason. Lot of mp3 forecasting works well on single instrument waveforms.

    Now if you are needing better than the default Mp3 it is possible to ask them for better.

    Yes it possible to script a conversion from zip at Philharmonia Orchestra into a sound font of your wish and use the same script over and over again for the complete set exposed or acquired.

    The one thing about all the sources of good quality sound material for sound fonts they have a structured naming of notes. So once you have made a conversion script for one of their instruments the next ones are fairly easy.

    Here is the sad reality Wizard Emeritus the Mp3 files from Philharmonia Orchestra vs VSL for something you are going to have a real Orchestra play using instruments both contain the Philharmonia Orchestra mp3 files beat VSL hands down because the Philharmonia Orchestra stuff is properly matched from a sound stage that can do it so allowing you to hear that X instruments note is too strong or too weak to the other instruments properly so the score can be adjusted properly.

    This is the hard reality of it most commercial sound fonts are worthless if you are going to have a real Orchestra play it due to them being incorrectly recorded so not a properly matching set. Those who do the foot work Wizard Emeritus and know the quality of the stage used to record the samples and the settings on the stage like temperature and pressure can in fact built a great set. Is the process of collecting this way harder yes. Are the results better yes. I like how VSL marketing holds CSI and others out as success when in fact its a failure to match up to real Orchestra. Yes lets market our failures as success and hope no one finds out.

    Please note in Sidney there are 20+ silent stages you can use. Only 3 have the configuration you require to record instrument sample sets under fully controlled conditions. The rest are equal configuration to VSL silent stage that are only good enough for samples where you expect to software render only.

    Wizard Emeritus there are a lot of examples of where VSL has been used and it not because they did not have a real Orchestra but that its the fact a scone that sound right on VSL is wrong to be played by a real Orchestra then running out of time to fix it.

    Its also interesting when you do a harmonic resonance test of instrument calibration vs VSL and Philharmonia Orchestra mp3 files. Philharmonia Orchestra mp3 files passes on every single note. VSL does not. Yes its simple glass tube with water to change the resonance by a note so when speaker plays note tube should resonate with the same force at each note with fluid movement. The glass tube and water is the old formal method of confirming all old instruments across their complete range when you cannot adjust tuning.

    Welcome to the sad reality Wizard Emeritus VSL and other commerical sets claim to replicate real instruments and people reviewing them never have dug out the how to validate a real instrument that it is to spec and checked them against it to see the huge error. If someone had claiming they were so perfect would not be going on and they would have been forced to improve their samples by improving their sound stages and starting over as not one of the commercials have a correctly constructed sound stage they own.

    Yes Wizard Emeritus also suffers from more bits the better issue. At times more are worse not better when it comes to audio samples.

  18. Dr Loser says:

    One can save the source HTML of the web-page, scrape a list of instruments using sed and then create a download of files like base-URI/instrument/instrument.zip.

    One can, one can indeed, Robert. It’s the first step in a tortuous process that ends in lo-fi regrettable failure.

    But leaving your total ignorance of anything musical to one side.

    Choose another domain. Do that voodoo thing that you do so well.

    You’ve never even done it once, have you?

    You’re basically as big a fraud as Fifi is.

  19. Dr Loser says:

    It is not 160,000 samples, it is 2,000,000 samples.

    Please do not ever torture Pog with this again, Wiz.

    He is firmly of the belief that, say, the number attached to a Google query actually has any statistical significance whatsoever. It’s a product of his geriatric ignorance, combined presumably with his absence from any class that featured Statistics.

    Well, let’s see. Shall I try “Purple Monkey Dishwasher?”

    Oh look. 90,100 results.

    Scroll down, Robert.

    Scroll down.

  20. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “That’s not true. ”

    Actually its not necessary. I stand corrected Robert Pogson. if you select the an instrument sample on the Philharmonia site, one of the options on the subpage that is brought up is to download all the samples on the page in a zip file. I also made a mistake on the total number of samples available in the VSL. It is not 160,000 samples, it is 2,000,000 samples.

    Neither of these mistakes substantially change the outcome of oiaohms’s “answer” to my challenge – He still fails as I dis cussed.

  21. The Wiz wrote, “This could have been a promising start for you, had it not been for the fact that the sample library consisted of hundreds of low quality ( 80kbps mp3 format) each of which had to be downloaded and saved manually – a time consuming process”

    That’s not true. One can save the source HTML of the web-page, scrape a list of instruments using sed and then create a download of files like base-URI/instrument/instrument.zip. So the manual part can be automated. One would still need to create an index and editor to use them effectively but it could be done while complying with the licence.

  22. wizard emeritus says:

    “No point refering to other topics attempting to save Wizard Emeritus at all. The facts are all on my side. There is major lacking in diversity in VSL and other commercial sound fonts followed by the fact that you can in fact get high quality sound FOSS fonts by request to different parties at no cost or bare min cost covering a broader range of instruments.”
    Facts?

    Since you seem to have comprehension errors sir, lets go over the facts of this exchange again:

    I asked Robert Pogson to provide me with the equivalent FOSS package that was as good as what I had recently acquired vrom the Vienna Symphonic Library. I presented URL’s to the Web site so that Robert Pogson could go to an presumably learn about the package that he was going to have to come up with a FOSS substitute for. What he wuld find is that the library is massive (over 160,000 samples, 40,000 occupying 40Gb of which Ilicensed) are in the library. Also As is typical for most commercial sound packages, the samples come bundled with an virtual instrument software. in VSL consisting of an in memory sampler (Vienna Instrument) and Virtual mixer console (Vienna Ensemble). Both components can function as VST plugins to any DAW or Notation packages that supports VST playback. to get an idea of the quality of the virtual instruments involved, You could listen to the demos on the vienna Web site. AYu should also have noted the methods of obtaining and installing the library. You can obtain a special hardware key required to license VSL plus the digital license keys for the parts of the library that you want from any music Web Store (e.g. sweetwater.com). Once you have paid for your licenses, the process of obtaining and installing the samples and software is quite straightforward. depending on the speed of your internet connection ( mine is 50mbits/second) you will be set and ready to go in and hour or so.

    Your Job haveing (as usual) jumped into the discussion unasked, was to meet that challenge by matching what I offered, that was all that you had to deliver, no more, no less. Your opinions of VSL are of zero relevancy to my challenge, your opinions of Doctor Loser or myself are of zero relevancy to this challenge.

    And as I expected from my past experience with you, your deliverable were less than compelling.

    The URL to the sample library consisted of a pointer to a the raw sample library that has been released into the creative commons by the London Philharmonia. This could have been a promising start for you, had it not been for the fact that the sample library consisted of hundreds of low quality ( 80kbps mp3 format) each of which had to be downloaded and saved manually – a time consuming process after which anyone who was looking for a symphony orchestra sample library would have had nothing more to show than pile of samples. You made no attempt to provide the missing pieces. For instance no in memory multi sample player with VSTplugin capability was offered, and most importantly, no instructions on how to turn the raw samples into a real sample library. With ths information missing, you have effectively provided nothing at all

    When challenged on the quality of the samples, you responded by saying that it was my job to ask the philharmonia for the samples that I need. While it might be if Iwere actually trying to roll my own library, it is not the case in this challenge. Since I provided the information that you needed to evaluate VSL including demos. You have to provide the same as part of the challenge or admit it doesnt exist and you have failed.

  23. oiaohm says:

    Dr Loser
    Give it up, Fifi. All you have done is to quote your pathetic, non-musical, local experience in Australia — and even then, nobody is going to believe you — and ignore the basic challenge, which is to say, Quality.
    The reality is quality FOSS base sound fonts are out there. Just they are not on public site and are unlikely ever to be.

    I did not ignore the basics at all. Sorry no point attempting to come and help Wizard Emeritus out DrLoser when reality on this point he did not have a clue how to source FOSS sound fonts.

    If you read back carefully if you would please DrLoser you don’t need to ask if there is anyone else who knows as Ram did speak up. Basically Wizard Emeritus has been fighting a point presuming high quality FOSS sound fonts don’t exist. Reality they exist just need to follow particular processes to get hands on them.

    No point refering to other topics attempting to save Wizard Emeritus at all. The facts are all on my side. There is major lacking in diversity in VSL and other commercial sound fonts followed by the fact that you can in fact get high quality sound FOSS fonts by request to different parties at no cost or bare min cost covering a broader range of instruments.

  24. Dr Loser says:

    Anglo Saxon, Prussia, character encoding, Pascal, Duck Typing, underwater radar (shot down rather effectively by Pog, I think), and now professional quality audio libraries … is there any field at all in which you are not too ashamed to parade your utter ignorance, Fifi?

    Oh … wait.

    I forgot IBM SAN.

  25. Dr Loser says:

    I have told you how you get FOSS set bigger and more complete than Veinna Sound Library.

    Give it up, Fifi. All you have done is to quote your pathetic, non-musical, local experience in Australia — and even then, nobody is going to believe you — and ignore the basic challenge, which is to say, Quality.

    You haven’t told anybody anything useful at all. Bigger means nothing. More complete means nothing. Quality means something.

    Let’s ignore the Wiz for a moment. Let’s ignore me. In fact, let’s ignore anybody who has any knowledge in the field whatsoever.

    Who do you think you are convincing with this blather? Robert Pogson? A man who has stated his firm belief that the only two things a professional musician needs are a tin cup and a spoon?

    Even that level of ignorance is a high bar for you to meet.

  26. oiaohm says:

    That the FOSS community has thus far proven incapable of providing gratis a Symphony orchestra Sample library of the quality and comprehensiveness in terms of Symphony orchestra instruments that comes anywhere near the quality and polish of what is available from a commercial offering like the Vienna Sound Library.
    Wizard Emeritus that is you problem FOSS world never provides everything 100 percent gratis. Some of the FOSS world is knowing who you have to ask.

    I have told you how you get FOSS set bigger and more complete than Veinna Sound Library.

    I don’t know where you have been getting this nonsense from, but unless you provide proof of its existence that can be verified, I will assume that this requirement is nothing more than a bit of pathetic fantasy from a mind desparate for a win.
    Really its a failure to read on your part. In fact proof is email them and ask what is required to get high quality samples in different formats to mp3 instead since all that was on the website was mp3 you attacked me based on that foolishness. Of course you want a website because you are not aware that not everything is put on websites. Some of this stuff requires in fact dealing with them by email or phone or in person.

    License: You are free to use these samples as you wish, including releasing them as part of a commercial work. The only restriction is they must not be sold or made available ‘as is’ (i.e. as samples or as a sampler instrument).
    Notice this Wizard Emeritus on the Make Music site. So you get your hands on the FLAC/MP3 you are not allowed to republish them as is. This is standard for the Good quality FOSS sample sets. Gratis to use after you have them no on going charges. Due to this common licensing the only way to get them is go to the source directly and that is the way its going to remain.

    Basically Wizard Emeritus you are wanting me to give you a web site to download something like VSL. The common licensing forbids doing this and is never going to happen while the common license on FOSS high quality sound fonts is what it is. Instead you are required to go to each source individually and request.

    In-memory sampler sampler is not in fact made by VSL. Linux Sampler include features that KONTAKT sampler does not and vice verse. At times VSL KONTAKT version has been customized so making it incompatible with other Kontakt sound fonts in fact damaging the tone of competing products. So that part of the VSL product I can give you a website.

    Wizard Emeritus basically due to being a idiot on High Quality FOSS sound fonts licensing you are looking in completely the wrong places to find them. Yes you find them by email more than anything else not on website. If you really do want a FOSS equal to VSL a few emails to ask different locations if they provide them should not be a problem. The reality is you don’t want a FOSS sound font at all Wizard Emeritus and just want a card you can pull out to pick on Robert with. Please remember Robert is not a music producer so how would he know. Basically pull you head in learn how FOSS sound sets are licensed and wake up to the limitations. The limitations does not forbid you from personally having a sound font set better than VSL. Issue is you cannot give that perfected set to anyone. So each person using FOSS sound sets have there own perfected set sourced from the locations they know that provide FOSS sound sets.

  27. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “The Mp3 files allow you to demo to philharmonia that you can in fact handle raw samples properly. To grant you access to the high resultion ones. Basically there is a entrance exam to get access to the high quality stuff if you are not paying them.”

    I don’t know where you have been getting this nonsense from, but unless you provide proof of its existence that can be verified, I will assume that this requirement is nothing more than a bit of pathetic fantasy from a mind desparate for a win.

    “Wizard Emeritus basically you are the failure here. You don’t have a clue what you need to do so you get access to high quality highly diverse sound fonts”

    O I have clue sir, but that clue is that you have been making up all of these “requirements” out if whole cloth in a pathetic attempt to avoid the fact that you can’t come up with a FOSS Symphonic Orchestral sample library that is anywhere near the quality that I have now from VSL. Either provide proof of your assertions in the form of a URL or drop this nonsense.

    “So it’s not me failing to put up what the replacement is. I have told you where the entry door is and you are pulling a door that is push open basically.”

    It doesn’t work that way. This is a challenge with specific deliverables. By jumping into my exchange with and challenge to Robert Pogson, you have committed yourself to answering the challenge to provide the FOSS equivalence to the Commercial Orchestral Sample library from VSL. Whether you like it or not, this means that you need to be able to match the available features. Since the VSL is a complete solution (Sound Library plus an in-memory sampler that can act as a VST plugin) Your solution must match those features. You can, and no doubt will, continue to refuse to provide a solution. Unfortunately for your position, this means that you will have failed the challenge.

    “Yes all the commercial sound sets complete miss the instruments working in Australia you have access to. Yes for such a small population country when it comes to access to Instruments we have lots more than most countries. So you might say I am spoil rotten on Instrument diversity.”

    Your opinions of commercial sound libraries are irrelevant to the challenge. You can either produce what has be asked for or not.

    Your attempts to denigrate the VSL because of its lack of inclusion of a bunch of esoteric instruments that you are cite is equally irrelevant to the challenge. The VSL has a specific set of virtual musical instruments available. Your job is to match that set, period.

    Your attempts to denigrate my skills as a composer and musician and belittle my knowledge are also irrelevant to the challenge. My supposed shortcomings don’t mitigate your inability to produce a solution.

    But your entire stream of gibberish has had one positive effect. You see sir, what you have done is to illustrate the point that I was making to Robert Pogson. That the FOSS community has thus far proven incapable of providing gratis a Symphony orchestra Sample library of the quality and comprehensiveness in terms of Symphony orchestra instruments that comes anywhere near the quality and polish of what is available from a commercial offering like the Vienna Sound Library.

    And remember sir, this is only one of the many competing commercial sample libraries that I have available to me. And you with your insistence in using FOSS only solutions, do not.

  28. oiaohm says:

    ASSG (Australian Screen Sound Guild) was the group I spent time with.

    Wizard Emeritus
    http://sso.mattiaswestlund.net/ No point as using this will not get you more access by using this.

    Wizard Emeritus
    The raw samples that you pointed to appear to be low resolution (80KBPS mp3) THe samples for VSL are recorded at 24/96KHz and sound it. : Low resolution samples are not the same as professionally recorded samples :You fail.

    You missed some key as normal do you have a paid deal with philharmonia orchestra. The answer is no you don’t. If you have paid working agreement with philharmonia orchestra all those sounds are in high res flac not mp3 under exactly the same license. Mp3 on the public site is to reduce on download size and cost to them for people who are not employing them. This again is FOSS not being a fair world.

    The Mp3 files allow you to demo to philharmonia that you can in fact handle raw samples properly. To grant you access to the high resultion ones. Basically there is a entrance exam to get access to the high quality stuff if you are not paying them.

    Wizard Emeritus basically you are the failure here. You don’t have a clue what you need to do so you get access to high quality highly diverse sound fonts. So its not me failing to put up what the replacement is. I have told you where the entry door is and you are pulling a door that is push open basically.

    While I am sure that the philharmonia orchestra took some care in creating their samples, It is clear the VSL took even more care and invested heavioy
    Stupidly in a lot of ways the to think VSL stage investment silent stages is special. In Sydney Australia if you know where to go there are 20 Silent Stage sets for music recording to be used at any time. 1 of those Silent stages is in the Sydney Opera House. The philharmonia orchestra also has 24/7 access to there own silent stage. Key to locating good samples is knowing where the Silent Stages are. There are lots of them around the world. Even VSL claim about have the best artists. Sorry the reality here is every major orchestra competes to get the best artists no single one gets them all.

    Triangular Violins due to there rarity of production new are 10 000+ dollars each and mostly only get able in Australia. Cost reflects the unique tone. Second most expensive Acoustic Violin class new. With the pure metals being the most expensive new. The originals are called Sincair Triangular Violins those are expensive little items because not many originals were made. Yes the Sinclair originals are from Scotland.

    Box Violins I mentioned start with Suzuki method of teaching the Violins as cheap and disposable prac item that never makes a sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lfNQP4jg_0 Then some real Violin makers started in fact making some box Violins. Again rarities to get hands on or even hear yet good examples of. Box violins have surprisingly good sound but it is different to a normal shaped Violin. The interesting point is Box Violins are a lot simpler construction no fancy curves to worry about or exact angles or exact size yet be reasonable and play able. Yes a Box Violin is exact how it sounds a box with neck, strings and bridge connected. Triangular Violins if internal center length is off by 1 mm the tone is badly off.

    $5,000 violin DrLoser I will tell you something. Other than Box and Triangle Violins most professional artiest in Wood will not play a new Violin. Advanced Violin students play $5,000+ dollar wooden Violins. Professional start a $10 000 and go up. Please note Violin price goes up as it ages for quite a while. So Advanced Violin Students by the time they are finished training the Violin they bought for training is worth over $10,000 if it was a good one when they go Pro. Why the increase in price is the wood aging and its tone changing of course with age and the tone changing a percentage turn horrible so some Violin students have to buy a new instrument when they go pro or in some cases due to body size changes trade there existing . Box is about $1,000 and Triangle Violins are $10,000+. So $5,000 is never a price of a pro Acoustic Violin . $5,000 is the price of a Violin someone is taking a bet on that it will be a good one in a few years.

    http://www.hovalin.com/ Synthetic does not improve or degrade with age very much. Yep 300-1000 dollars depending on production quality and tone.

    http://web-japan.org/kidsweb/hitech/magnesium_violins/
    Most pro grade metal Violins come out of Japan. Dr Loser not one of those is less than $12 000. Of course just like Synthetic these don’t improve or degrade age very much.

    http://srsfunny.tumblr.com/post/113239582616/metal-violin-looks-deadly
    When you get into the electrics some violins don’t look like Violins any more you might find one of these highly custom for 5,000 dollars but one shaped like a Violin is $2000 or lower.

    Interesting enough both Box and Triangular Violins appear in sound tracks of items produced here in Australia. All 3 material types appear as well. Yet in the USA due to the heavy effect of VSL the rarer musical instruments are never used. Notice all the examples Wizard Emeritus gave were USA. USA show music production is getting flatter and flatter with less and less range of instruments being used. I don’t look at VSL as a good thing.

    Yes all the commercial sound sets complete miss the instruments working in Australia you have access to. Yes for such a small population country when it comes to access to Instruments we have lots more than most countries. So you might say I am spoil rotten on Instrument diversity.

    Some new sound fonts are only made in SF2 so saying hey they don’t use SF2 is such a laugh it not funny.

  29. Deaf Spy wrote, “Do you really, but really want to imply that the aforementioned professionals use frequency modulation synthesis,”

    Many music professionals use FM synthesis one way or another. For sampling/recording, one way to do analogue to digital conversion is to use a variable high-frequency oscillator controlled by the input. The corresponding digital value is computed from the frequency measurement, a precise count during a small window of time. Computation can correct for drift, offset, gain or non-linearity. In synthesis, a digital value can control an oscillator which output may be demodulated by several methods, like clipping to get PWM, or ratio detection wrt a stable oscillator, or using the control voltage from a phase-locked loop. It’s all good. These methods are all so stable and reliable that the user does not need to know any of the technical details except gain or filtering.

  30. Deaf Spy wrote, “Robert, please enlighten us how do you multi-task the tasks of writing software, when your compiler is compiling your current project?”

    Well, work on another project and if you don’t have one, create one, or go for a walk or eat your lunch or…

  31. ram says:

    Deaf Spy said: ” … but really want to imply that the aforementioned professionals use frequency modulation synthesis, and an old proprietary sound library format?”

    Well, yes they do, along with alot of other things. Old methods and sounds, physical or in electronics and software, never really go away. Professionals use every tool at their disposal, especially to evoke certain historical moods or reference other earlier movies.

    The SF2 format is an open published standard, so plenty of Linux sound tools work with it and can create SF2 format files.

    Media professionals are not fashion or marketing driven, in no small part because we create the fashions and latest marketing fads. We are wise to that game and pretty much immune ourselves.

  32. Deaf Spy says:

    Well, why don’t you multi-task like everyone else?

    Now, now, now. Robert, please enlighten us how do you multi-task the tasks of writing software, when your compiler is compiling your current project?

  33. Deaf Spy says:

    Really, ram? Do you really, but really want to imply that the aforementioned professionals use frequency modulation synthesis, and an old proprietary sound library format?

  34. kurkosdr says:

    That does not qualify as “naming any price.”

    Well they tried to “name any price” with Windows Vista Ultimate (retail version), but since most people didn’t want Vista even for free, it failed in a laughable way. So, in a sense, you are correct, Microsoft could never claim any price due to people simply refusing to upgrade.

    Intel could not name any price because of AMD. But with AMD looking to get rid of their x86 division, that may not hold true for much longer.

  35. ram says:

    Deaf Spy says:
    May 4, 2016 at 7:43 am
    “Except that no one is using SF2 or FM synth anymore.”

    Har har har! You should trying telling that (as comedy) to gathering of post production people at a SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) or ASSG (Australian Screen Sound Guild) meeting.

  36. Dr Loser says:

    At another school one of my students could bring a room to tears just with her voice. How much did that cost her? Does anyone care?

    Since you ask? No, not really, Robert.

    But if you and oiaohm continue to dig yourselves further into this huge hole of ignorance, I confess that I, too, will (fer Free!) be brought to tears.

    Tears of hysterical laughter.

  37. Dr Loser says:

    Intel and M$ are of course not ruined but their wings are clipped. In their good old days they could name any price and the world had to pay it.

    Stop it, Robert: you’re sounding both clueless and paranoid. I know you are better than that.

    In neither case is this remotely true. I’d guesstimate the highest price charged by Microsoft for a Win95 or later OS as around $100. That does not qualify as “naming any price.” I’d guesstimate the highest price for a standard Intel desktop chip, from Pentium II onwards, as around $150. That does not qualify as “naming any price.”

    Outrageous claims require solid evidence, squire.

  38. Dr Loser says:

    In my experience, a professional musician can make great music with a tin can or a spoon.

    And your experience is worth precisely nothing whatsoever in this context, Robert.

    Do you have any “professional musicians” of your acquaintance? (I have several.)

    Have you essayed this instructive experiment comparing tin cans (or spoons) to a $5,000 violin?

    Tell me again. You’ve never actually tried slowly boiling a frog, have you?

    Not to mention that none of this supports your implied contention that the quality of the samples hardly matters.

    You are so thoroughly ignorant in this field that I wonder why you even bother trying to back oiaohm up. Doubling down on domain ignorance, I suppose.

  39. Dr Loser says:

    I would fire an employee who wasted time waiting for things to happen.

    Which isn’t really relevant when answering an individual who objects to wasting time on compilation cycles, it it, Robert?

    Interesting nonetheless. I can’t really imagine you ever having managed anybody, Robert — it’s not your style. You’re more the Lone Ranger/Maverick sort of guy.

    I’m sure your stories of managing IT personnel would be very enlightening.

  40. The Wiz wrote, “Low resolution samples are not the same as professionally recorded samples :You fail.”

    In my experience, a professional musician can make great music with a tin can or a spoon. The actual tool doesn’t interfere with the creative process unless it breaks. I knew a teacher from Quebec who could play wonderful music with a pair of spoons and his boots. No one cared the resolution, the brands, nor how much his equipment cost. At another school one of my students could bring a room to tears just with her voice. How much did that cost her? Does anyone care?

  41. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus lets start of with something simple. ”

    Yes lets do that:

    The challenge was to match the capabilities for a virtual instrument library called Vienna SYMPHONIC Library.

    To meet that challenge you would have needed to provide a package that consists of a sample library the associated sample player configured to integrate the proposed sample library.

    Your answer was to point me to the site for picking up the raw samples
    http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/make_music

    Raw samples presented by themselves are not the equivalent of a full integrated package: You fail

    The raw samples that you pointed to appear to be low resolution (80KBPS mp3) THe samples for VSL are recorded at 24/96KHz and sound it. : Low resolution samples are not the same as professionally recorded samples :You fail.

    One would also think that you would have checked into how VSL went about creating their instruments and how they record… (https://www.vsl.co.at/en/AboutUs/Musicians,https://www.vsl.co.at/en/AboutUs/Silent_Stage)

    While I am sure that the philharmonia orchestra took some care in creating their samples, It is clear the VSL took even more care and invested heavioy

    Also if I were going to be thinking of cases to make like the one that you have attempted to make , I’d be especially in any indication of who uses their products. Here is a description of some of their customers, naming names.

    “The list of Vienna Symphonic Library users includes musicians, composers, arrangers and studio owners on all continents. Well-known TV and film music composers such as Danny Elfman, A.R. Rahman, Alan Silvestri, Alexandre Desplat and many others use their “Vienna Libraries” (as some like to call them) to create mock-ups of their movie scores. Increasingly composers are also combining virtual orchestra sounds with live musicians in the final mix. TV series such as CSI, The Mentalist, Dexter or commercials are almost exclusively created “inside the box”. Tight production schedules and limited budgets usually don’t allow for recordings of real orchestras, so the sample-based recording isn’t just a mock-up, it’s the final cue.””

    Not knowing your competition: You Fail.

    Of course, you could have pointed me towards http://sso.mattiaswestlund.net/ and the sonatina symphonic orchestra, which uses the Philharmonic samples and is free. IN fact the sonatina symphonic library demonstrates your contention that anyone with skill could manipulate the raw samples of the philharmonia library into something useful. Unfortunately for your contention, reading the authors description of how he created the library doesnt cast the material in a very good light.

    IN short, you still fail.

  42. DeafSpy wrote, “When I wait for the project to compile, I waste time.”

    Well, why don’t you multi-task like everyone else? I would fire an employee who wasted time waiting for things to happen.

  43. DeafSpy says:

    There’s no evidence that a faster CPU idling most of the time gets anything done faster except waste more energy. [and so on, and so on]

    Bwahaha-ha-ha-ha!

    Your personal needs don’t extrapolate over world’s, Robert. You may not need that, but people who make their living from their computers most certainly need that speed, and will happily pay the extra on electricity bill.

    An acquaintance of mine, a professional photographer and video operator, is making his living from making photo albums and video recordings of public and private events: weddings, celebrations, concerts, you name it. First he tried to buy a video card with hardware video encoding capabilities to speed up the time to convert a video from one format to another. Finally, two years ago, he bought a top i7 model and never looked back. Now his videos are being converted in a speed, higher than real-time. That is enormous saving for him.

    That might be a tiny piece of the desktop, but it is not the only one. Add engineers, all kind of them. Add architects. Add designers, who want their effects on their huge RAW images to be applied as fast as possible. Add musicians, who might not need top speed, but definitely won’t be happy with an Atom or ARM CPU. Add software developers, who can definitely tell the difference between building a project in 1 minute, or in 10 seconds, and do this many times per day to test and debug their code.

    I, being mostly a software developer, will never ever trade my quad-core CPU with 6MB cache for anything with less cores and cache. My projects are usually complex, consisting of 3-15 subprojects. When I wait for the project to compile, I waste time. The less time I waste, the more money I make. Compiling time is critical for me, and multiple cores make miracles here. My next upgrade will be either a six-core i7, or Xeon E3.

    Little by little, one by one, these tiny pieces add to a good stream. This stream, Robert, is the reason i7 CPUs and entry level Xeons exist. This stream is one of the major money sources for Intel.

  44. Deaf Spy wrote, “professionals are ready to spent their pennies to buy a powerful i7 or Xeon to get their jobs done faster.”/span>

    There’s no evidence that a faster CPU idling most of the time gets anything done faster except waste more energy. Professionals are a tiny part of the desktop environment. Beast is an ancient POS compared to modern CPUs and no one here complains it’s slow. Beast runs many services and two or three desktops and everyone is happy with speed. I can build my kernel in 7 minutes and still have a snappy desktop. Would I be Happier if builds took 3minutes? No. However I will change Beast to ARM this year just to reduce waste of power, heat and noise.

  45. Deaf Spy says:

    Small update. Seems Intel are not even abandoning the low end completely. Officially, Apollo Lake lives on, but is based on a different core.

  46. Deaf Spy says:

    Client CPUs dropped 15% but Intel raised prices 19% on average…

    There is good explanation for this, Robert. Client CPUs dropped a lot in the lower segment, as nowadays there is no need to upgrade your CPU and even RAM to use the latest version of Windows and Office.

    However, when it comes to high end CPUs, professionals are ready to spent their pennies to buy a powerful i7 or Xeon to get their jobs done faster.

    ARMs drive low prices even lower. Intel obviously decided they have no benefit of low margins and moved on. Pity, Atom helped create nice cheap small computers. Would be interesting to see if CoreM will become cheap enough to replace these.

  47. Deaf Spy says:

    The format and software architecture live on. A bit like Yamaha’s FM synthesis chips.

    Except that no one is using SF2 or FM synth anymore.

  48. ram made several good points but this is not one: ” For approximately every ten clients (from whatever source) sold, Intel gets to sell a very much higher margin server.”

    There are billions of client machines but only millions of servers. The ratio is more like 1000:1. Intel’s latest quarterly report shows client units are down a similar percentage to server units increase. That’s a huge net loss in units sold because inventories are piling up. Meanwhile ARM dominates clients and is eating into servers. I think in 2016, ARM will even eat into desktop clients. That’s my plan here. The CPUs are definitely good enough if they quit designing for battery power and add more RAM and cache.

  49. ram says:

    With respect to Mr. Pogson’s comment: “Those folks need to index their inventory.”

    Their index, for themselves, friends, and customers, is fine. Others will probably get exposed to alot of advertising. The free is as freedom. There is always a real cost.

    With respect to Mr. Pogson’s comment: “Servers alone don’t cut it. The client revenue is still nearly double the server revenue.”

    The trend, however, is obvious. Clients are getting very cheap with very low margins. For approximately every ten clients (from whatever source) sold, Intel gets to sell a very much higher margin server. I wish Intel faced greater competition, but they are, in fact, well managed and very smart.

    With respect to Deaf Spy’s comment: “The days of SoundBlaster AWE are gone. Long gone.”

    The format and software architecture live on. A bit like Yamaha’s FM synthesis chips.

  50. ram wrote, “Probably every instrument sound one could reasonably want is in there somewhere. Finding it, on the other hand, may or may not take a while”.

    Yep. Fortunately FLOSS databases are cheap and plentiful. Those folks need to index their inventory.

  51. Deaf Spy wrote, “Seems Intel are leaving a low-margin 1 billion market (mobile) to focus on a few high-margin multi-billion markets.”

    See IDC

    Intel used to sell 300 million desktop CPUs annually for nearly a similar amount as well as servers. Servers alone don’t cut it. The client revenue is still nearly double the server revenue. Despite increasing revenue in both categories, gross margin is down 5% in the last quarter compared to the same quarter a year ago. Intel wrote, “Compared to Q1 2015, Client Computing Group (CCG) revenue was up 2% and operating income increased 34%. DCG revenue was up 9% and operating income was up 4%.” Client CPUs dropped 15% but Intel raised prices 19% on average… So, Intel is rather ripping off the lovers of “Intel Inside” for more while the buyers of servers are reluctant. Competition is good but most consumers aren’t seeing any unless they buy small cheap computers as I recommend.

  52. Deaf Spy says:

    Back to the topic of Intel / Wintel.

    Seems Intel are leaving a low-margin 1 billion market (mobile) to focus on a few high-margin multi-billion markets.

  53. Deaf Spy says:

    The following site has almost 1 TeraByte of Free Open Source SoundFonts

    And, in the true spirit of Free Open Source, 99% of them are useless crap. I lost some minutes of my life browsing through some of them to discover that they are tiny and single-sampled. In the world of music, this means – crap.

    The days of SoundBlaster AWE are gone. Long gone.

  54. ram says:

    All this talk about SoundFont libraries and sample sets. The following site has almost 1 TeraByte of Free Open Source SoundFonts:

    http://wowsia.com/

    Probably every instrument sound one could reasonably want is in there somewhere. Finding it, on the other hand, may or may not take a while 😉

  55. oiaohm says:

    This is one of the rare times I am going to post 3 times.

    Wizard Emeritus lets start of with something simple.

    1) How many shapes does a violin come in.
    The answer is 3+.
    Acoustic Violins come in 3 shapes. Hourglass(the only ones VSL has), Triangular and Box.
    Of course there are electric Violins where shape is not required because they don’t have a chamber they just have pick-up like a electric guitar so just like electric guitar any shape you want.

    2) What materials does a Violin come in.
    Acoustic is 3 again Wood(again this is the only ones VSL has), Metal and Synthetic. Again of course electric Violins materials mostly don’t matter.
    3) How many tunings do Violins come in.
    The answer here is 2. Classical and Gypsy/fiddle. All the samples in VSL are all recorded for Classical none for Gypsy/fiddle. The difference between classical and Gypsy/fiddle is Gypsy/fiddle tuned half an octave higher than classical on each string..

    So there are 20 core Violin sample types and VSL only gives you one. Most of the Violin shaped instruments have 10 sample types and again VSL only provides 1. This is the thing VSL is insanely short in the diversity. With FOSS sound sample sets for those with working relationships with orchestras can have the 20 core Violin sample types and at least 10 sample types of all the Violin related instruments.

    This is why VSL is not superior. Once you start understanding how many of each instrument you should have to have a complete set VSL is missing so many its not funny.

    All of the brass instruments don’t have to be brass there are synthetic versions of them these days.

    Remember Wizard Emeritus you did that stupid put up or shut up with a list of instruments you said you could not get anywhere else. You did not list the material of the instrument. This is because you are not use to dealing with FOSS sound sets. You need to be a lot more descriptive in what you are after. One of the instruments you asked for is made in 8 different materials and each one is slightly different sound.

    Wizard Emertus you don’t have a clue how inferior VSL is because you don’t have the contacts to have access to the FOSS world of sound sets. Being able to use the raw sound sample sets and having right releationships to access FOSS sound sets give you access to a instrument list that makes VSL look like garbage because its completely lacking diversity.

  56. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus basically its about time you stop lieing.

    True statement would be that VSL is inferior to FOSS sample sets but due to being an artistic representation of real instruments is simper for a novices to use to get decent results but with skill FOSS sample sets can give the same results as VSL.

    The reasons why VSL is inferior is why to the top end of Music production is not important at all.

    The issue here Wizard Emeritus have based your complete arguement on the lie that VSL is superior when that is not the fact.

  57. oiaohm says:

    You provided a substitute that is inferior, not equivalent. All the rest of your verbiage is irrelevant to that reality.
    Wizard Emeritus sorry get over yourself. I provided what the FOSS equivalent is. In fact the FOSS substitute is not inferior.

    Reality like it or not VSL is the inferior one. The FOSS sample sets used by person who knows how to use them can generate equal or better sound than VSL. Problem is VSL cannot generate the per artist representation the FOSS sample sets can because it does not have the diversity of supply or enough recording by real artists. So on technical merit like it or not having the deals to have access to the FOSS sample sets puts you ahead.

    Wizard Emeritus the reality is you don’t want to accept that what you have claimed to be inferior is not in fact so. The issue is you don’t know how to use the other stuff properly to even make a proper assessment.

    There are physical world reality about instruments that means VSL will always be a limit solution and never can be the best over all solution.

  58. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” You asked for something that represents real instruments I have provided that. ”

    You provided a substitute that is inferior, not equivalent. All the rest of your verbiage is irrelevant to that reality.

    You lost the challenge. Anyone else would accept that reality and move on. But of course you will continue with your walls of gibberish and insults. Feel free to do so.

    It will change nothing.

  59. DrLoser wrote, “I find it difficult to suffer fools in silence.”

    Well, it’s still a good rule to keep one’s mouth shut less the world know one is a fool. Intel and M$ are of course not ruined but their wings are clipped. In their good old days they could name any price and the world had to pay it. Now they are competing with */Linux on ARM head to head. Their margins are dropping and they are having to work for a living like everyone else. It’s all good. Imagine how much better the last 20 years would have been if Wintel had not managed to monopolize the space.

  60. Dr Loser says:

    I can’t imagine any real professional having the time to waste on my blog writing the crap that you do.

    Then your imagination is severely deficient, Robert. Along with so many of your other traits.

    I don’t get paid to do this. It’s not the most remunerative pastime, I admit. But I find it difficult to suffer fools in silence.

    A professional trait, I believe.

  61. Dr Loser says:

    Can we put a stop to this drivelling nonsense, please? Here’s the current figures for Intel:

    Five year stock price: between $20 and $35. Presently at $30.

    Market cap: $144.33 billion.

    Dividend yield: 3.44%

    P/E ratio: 12.88

    That isn’t even “dead” in the sense that Mark Twain insisted he wasn’t dead.

    Have you people lost all your tenuous grasp on reality?

  62. ram says:

    Thanks for that detailed explanation oiaohm. When I’m given manufacturers early chips and boards they are not exactly labeled (as in “Branded”)(numbered yes, branded no). Then if they reuse or shift brand labels it gets very confusing fast, and I’m not being consulted about marketing so I don’t really track those things.

  63. oiaohm says:

    Ram the problem here is branding.
    Xeon-Phi comes from the
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrabee_%28microarchitecture%29
    2006 its Larrabee project then in 2007-2009 its the Teraflops Research Chip and in 2010 it gets the branding Xeon-Phi.

    Atom is release 2008- as the Atom branding. So this statement
    I am fairly sure Atom predated Xeon-Phi boards.
    Correct and incorrect. Atom does not predate the chip design that end up formally branded in 2010 as Xeon-Phi . Both Larrabee and Teraflops chips from Intel that are the base to the Xeon-Phi core design to run multi cores predate the first Atom.

    The fact Xeon-Phi is Larrabee is in the first intel press release about Xeon-Phi in 2010
    http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/2010/20100531comp.htm

    Both Atom and Xeon-Phi are related to Larrabee. The big but Xeon-Phi is purely based off Larrabee. Atom is Larrabee cross back with general desktop. Xeon-Phi is also related to Teraflops the Atom chips are not. Atoms register pattern matches Larrabee and since Xeon-Phi is directly based off Larrabee some make the mistake that Xeon-Phi somehow comes from Atom. When the reality is Atom branches off from Larrabee and with each revision of Atom it become less and less Larrabee.

    Yes Xeon-Phi instruction set unique features that are not in atom starts with Teraflops a year before the first Atom.

    Yes the fact Larrabee got rebranding twice causes confusion about time-line.

    Xeon-Phi is direct descendant of Larrabee.
    Atom is branch off Larrabee that goes off in its own unique direction with none of the features added to Atom ever making it into Xeon-Phi and coming less and less Larrabee.

    ram when companies rebrand stuff following the time line can get confusing. The reason why I give you the wikipedia site and said read the history. Xeon-Phi design predates it being called Xeon-Phi and those design were in production for testing before the first Atom.

  64. ram says:

    oiaohm seems to know what he is talking about when it comes to FLOSS audio and sample sets.

    With respect to Intel Atom chips, I had them pretty early in the piece and in fact suggested to the Intel VP in charge then of that division that they clustered well but otherwise were a bit marginal. Not quite sure of the year for that, I have records of it somewhere. I am fairly sure Atom predated Xeon-Phi boards.

  65. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus basically no point keeping up the lie replicating “real instrumental counterparts exactly”. Commercial sample sets have there usability limits because of real mechanics of real instruments no amount of claiming will magically alter real world physics. When you run into the usability limits you have to be able to operate without them.

    In fact VSL has done tweaking on top of the sample set to make it sound better. So even if you have the VSL players and instruments in a hall and had them play the music the result would not match anywhere close to what VSL generated and this is true for all the commercial orchestra sets. Yes this is the problem where people get hands on FOSS sample sets. So VSL does not replicate a real instrument at all but a artistic representation of a real instrument. So its like a painting vs a photo. FOSS sets in fact are raw real record not tampered with in most cases so in fact attempting to exactly represent the real instrument as exactly as recording equipment allows no artist alterations instead those are left to you. Yes FOSS sample sets is the Photo items like VSL are like paintings.

    Basically your complete arguement against me is based on a lie about what VSL has in fact done. You asked for something that represents real instruments I have provided that. Remember VSL and others are an artist work made from real instruments samples not a true representation of real instruments.

    Now Wizard Emeritus not knowing what VSL has in fact done really shows you are amateur because you never properly inspected your tools to know what they had done.

  66. oiaohm says:

    Your suggestion that I have to use what you have labeled as a “starting set” for my music when I am working right now with a commercial set of virtual instruments from VSL that that reproduce the sounds and timbre of their real instrumental counterparts exactly is just laughable.
    The problem here VSL only represents the sounds and timbre of the instruments they sampled with. They will not be the instrument or the human your commission orchestra to have a group play it.

    Really this statement of yours just just laughable. As I pointed out as one example the sounds and timbre of a Violin is based on the bone structure of the player. So even the same violin played by a different artist has in fact a different sound and timbre. If you have done mechanical study of instruments you would know this and understand why VSL option becomes basically unworkable when prepping stuff for real players and where player matched sample sets become critical to getting results.

    Asking a human Violinist to produce the same sound as VSL made is impossible and this is same with all the commercial sound sets. Asking a human Violinist to product the same sound or better than their own sample set is possible.

    Semi-pro and pro both will be doing so much composing on computer then have real group play it. Now if the generated sound is not matched to what the artist can in fact do this causes one big problem and cost blow outs at times.

    Scary fact about real orchestra instruments is over 80 percent of them does the sound and timbre in fact depend on the physical body of the player. This is why orchestras that commission out their time provide their own sample sets so that customers have correct expectations of what they will get back. Sometimes the differences require altering the score in places do get the wanted effect out the player/instrument.

    And they sound exactly like the instruments that they mimic. Your proposed FOSS substitute sound so inferior as to not be worth the time and effort.
    http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/explore/make_music
    Funny these sound exactly like the instruments they have. This is the big problem with using VSL. Straight up when you get a proper recording back from orchestra you would reject it even that it was played right just the instruments were different to what VSL has exposed your ears to.

    Your inferior claim is basically proof you don’t understand the problem. Yes the not worth time and effort is such a laugh its not funny. Its not worth the time or effort to an amateur who is not employing orchestras and having the issue where the computer rendered sound does not anywhere near sound like what the orchestra can and will produce. Yes that is the point VSL and the other commercial sound sets become worthless..

    Commercial virtual orchestral instruments like those licensed by VSL are available for anyone to use who has the cash for the license.
    Yes they are licensed to anyone who has the cash and FOSS is not that different in this case. FOSS virtual orchestral instruments sets are open to anyone who has standing dealing with the orchestras themselves. Again anyone with the cash to employ orchestras at least once. Basically both take cash to get access to its just how you spend your cash. FOSS you pay for a service at least once to get it and Commercial you pay for the item in this case.

    Now if you have not paid for the right service in the FOSS world you can find yourself short of something that other people working with FOSS have at no on going cost. Yes this is not common but conner areas like music production are like this.

    Basically you have looking for FOSS sample sets provided for free on open websites. That is only a percentage of FOSS not all FOSS.

  67. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “In fact did point you to how to get FOSS virtual orchestral exceeding VSL. Problem is the requires business dealings that you don’t have because you are amateur to get access to every type of instrument. I gave you the link to the starting set for amateur class.”

    You have provided me with nothing. An assertion by a self admitted liar and proven fraud that the FOSS based virtual orchestral instrument library exists but only for the anointed is not proof of anything.

    Your suggestion that I have to use what you have labeled as a “starting set” for my music when I am working right now with a commercial set of virtual instruments from VSL that that reproduce the sounds and timbre of their real instrumental counterparts exactly is just laughable. It demonstrates that you have no clue as to what real orchestral instruments sound like, nor do you have any idea what “professional” tools for a working musician are.

    Real musicians, whether the make a living from their music or not,have more than enough professional tools available to them if they have the money to pay for it. That is the way it works in reality. Commercial virtual orchestral instruments like those licensed by VSL are available for anyone to use who has the cash for the license.

    And they sound exactly like the instruments that they mimic. Your proposed FOSS substitute sound so inferior as to not be worth the time and effort.

    So as far as I am concerned, you have failed the challenge, period.

    And all the rest of what you have written is just so much moronic crap from a pathological liar and poseur.

    “FOSS is not a fair place. Those without the right business dealing can find themselves without access to what they need and that is the way of FOSS.”

    But according to the owner of this blog, the way of FOSS is sharing and caring. It is not a secret society nor an exclusive club. Perhaps you should explain to him your contradictory position.

    Or admit that you have been (once again) lying to try to win a challenge that you have already lost.

  68. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “I can’t imagine any real professional having the time to waste on my blog writing the crap that you do.”

    And we wonder why you feel it necessary to malign users of IT who don’t ascribe to your world view as sheeple and slaves.

  69. DrLoser wrote, “Forgive the rest of us for being professional.”

    I can’t imagine any real professional having the time to waste on my blog writing the crap that you do.

  70. Dr Loser says:

    I gave you the link to the starting set for amateur class.

    That basically defines your entire existence, doesn’t it, Fifi? “Amateur class.”

    Although you don’t even aspire to that level. “Wannabe amateur” is more like it.

    Forgive the rest of us for being professional.

  71. Dr Loser says:

    Then when pressed, you then actually admitted that there was no FOSS equivalent to VSL, but then spilled a lot of additional verbiage to insinuate that my use of what you admitted was an ersatz FOSS solution would somehow be not only important to my music making, but mandatory to getting my music performed by a symphony orchestra. A claim that is patently nonsensical.

    Can we revisit that particular claim, oiaohm?

    Because you did, indeed, make it. You claimed that an (unspecified, but presumed general) leader of a symphony orchestra would not accept a submission for performance unless it was accompanied, not by a score, but by a full-blown digital demonstration.

    I’m so totally convinced that this is true. I really am. It only remains for you to pass the test of truth at the simplest level.

    Just one, oiaohm. Just one. Just a single cite that gives any sort of proof to your preposterous claim. Just one.

    A letter from a single orchestra leader, requiring said digital demonstration, would suffice.

    Admission (yet again) of lying would also suffice.

    I’m not holding my breath. (Although I can supply you with a digital rendition of 4’33”, in which I hold my breath, should you need further evidence.)

  72. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus really go back and read you started the recent VSL challage after someone said Linux was used for Music in a particular field above you. Sorry you are over looking your mistakes so much it not funny.
    A claim that is patently nonsensical.
    Its in fact not nonsensical. Go on keep on claiming its nonsensical and keep on putting your head in the sand and ignoring what the semi-pro and pro are in fact doing and are required todo. The reality why the high end don’t use VSL is they are using sample sets provided by the symphony orchestras they have dealing with.

    FOSS is not always free for all. In the case of FOSS high quality sample sets its a requirement to have a business dealing with orchestras to get access.

    You could not point to a set FOSS virtual orchestral instruments solution that had the same quality as what I am currently working with from VSL.
    In fact did point you to how to get FOSS virtual orchestral exceeding VSL. Problem is the requires business dealings that you don’t have because you are amateur to get access to every type of instrument. I gave you the link to the starting set for amateur class.

    Wizard Emeritus the reality here you don’t like it that the fact you have asked for high quality FOSS virtual orchestral and the means to get it is semi-pro level work.

    Basically Wizard Emeritus you are presuming I am lieing and sorry I was not at all. The reality you arguement for VSL is simply lack of dealing higher up the chain. There is a conference covering artist work on Linux one of the conference videos covered the very thing you are complain about.

    FOSS is not a fair place. Those without the right business dealing can find themselves without access to what they need and that is the way of FOSS.

    As I said there is a big gap between amateur class and (semi pro/pro) have access to in music production.

    Wizard Emeritus please stop lieing I have provided you with how to get a high quality FOSS virtual orchestral instruments exceeding VSL. Fun part about dealing with symphony orchestras is you can in fact have the name of the artist who made the sample set.

  73. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” Its like the idiot action claiming that VSL was required for music making when its only a sub market. ”

    I issued the challenge to Robert Pogson to find for me the FOSS equivalent of the commercial virtual instrument product known as Vienna Symphonic Library. That is all that I did. Nothing more, nothing less.

    You sir, on the other hand jumped in to the debate. When I then re-issued the challenge to you. You proceeded to barrage me with a lot of extraneous nonsense that amounted to saying that the VSL library wasn’t all that important and was amateur hour. Then when pressed, you then actually admitted that there was no FOSS equivalent to VSL, but then spilled a lot of additional verbiage to insinuate that my use of what you admitted was an ersatz FOSS solution would somehow be not only important to my music making, but mandatory to getting my music performed by a symphony orchestra. A claim that is patently nonsensical.

    Calling me a liar is just as meaningless as your attempt to answer my challenge. You could not point to a set FOSS virtual orchestral instruments solution that had the same quality as what I am currently working with from VSL.

    And that is that.

  74. oiaohm says:

    ram please go read history
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon_Phi starts 2006 Atoms were started 2008.

    Atom was a side branch to what was being done for Xeon Phi. Xeon Phi instruction has quite a few differences to an atom chip.
    http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Xeon-Phi-7120D-vs-Intel-Atom-Z2520

    Yes Xeon Phi and Atoms are quite different beasts. To pack 50+ cores in Xeon Phi are missing stacks of functionality you would expect in normal desktop PC chip.

    FMA3 is found on Xeon Phi chips yet SSE and MMX is missing. Atoms have the normal SSE and MMX set no FMA3.
    General desktop and Xeon chips mostly have SSE, MMX and are also most cases missing FMA3.

    Atom is a Xeon Phi relation but without question Xeon Phi chips are not Atom chips. Yes attempting to run normal x86 applications on a Xeon Phi can bring a lot of issues due to the expected instruction set not being there.

    Atom is a Xeon Phi cpu design with SSE, MMX and other common x86 extensions added back in. Atom advantage to Xeon Phi development absolutely nothing.

  75. ram says:

    The PCWorld article is seriously misleading. Stand alone Atom chips are being discontinued for mobile phones and tablets. Big deal! That is because Intel’s new Skylake processors are more powerful and use less power.

    The Atom chips are far from dead. They have advantages in the point of sales (POS), digital signage, and kiosk markets. So they are not competitive, even with Intel’s own products, in the mobile market. Makes sense for Intel to stop trying to sell them there.

    In the server market, the Atom CPU core is very much alive, but not sold as single, dual, or quad, core but instead in batches of 57-61 cores as Intel Xeon Phi Coprocessor boards:

    http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/processors/xeon/xeon-phi-detail.html

    These are still in VERY active development and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of “prototypes” have been sold:

    https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/what-disclosures-has-intel-made-about-knights-landing

    This stuff is all Linux, of course.

    Curious indeed that PC World would report:

    “The Atom product line has been in trouble for some time. Atom started off with a bang in netbooks, but its fortunes have sagged since then”

    , because to quote US government statements and Intel press releases:

    “100 Petaflops of committed customer deals to date
    Live Knights Landing demos:
    @ISC’15 (June 2015 in Frankfurt, GER): 2-node “MODAL” cosmic simulation
    @SC’15 (Nov 2015 in Austin, TX, USA): 16-node “HPC for Music” simulation and 8-node “MPAS-O” weather simulation
    Cori Supercomputer at NERSC (National Energy Research Scientific Computing Center at LBNL/DOE) became the first publically announced Knights Landing based system, with over 9,300 nodes slated to be deployed in mid-2016
    “Trinity” Supercomputer at NNSA (National Nuclear Security Administration) is a $174 million deal awarded to Cray that will feature Haswell and Knights Landing, with acceptance phases in both late-2015 and 2016.

    The DOE* and Argonne* awarded Intel contracts for two systems (Theta and Aurora) as a part of the CORAL* program, with a combined value of over $200 million. Intel is teaming with Cray* on both systems. Scheduled for 2016, Theta will have greater than 8.5 petaFLOPs and more than 2,500 nodes, featuring the Intel® Xeon Phi™ processor (Knights Landing), Cray* Aries* interconnect and Cray’s* XC* supercomputing platform. Scheduled for 2018, Aurora is the second and largest system with 180-450 petaFLOP/s and approximately 50,000 nodes, featuring the next-generation Intel® Xeon Phi™ processor (Knights Hill), 2nd generation Intel® Omni-Path fabric, Cray’s* Shasta* platform, and a new memory hierarchy composed of Intel Lustre, Burst Buffer Storage, and persistent memory through high bandwidth on-package memory.”

    That doesn’t sound like financial or technical trouble to me! More like deliberate disinformation from PC World.

  76. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr you should have done some more homework.
    http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/03/chinas-loongson-makes-a-64-bit-mips-processor-that-can-run-x86-and-arm-code/
    This chip is MIPS and its interesting. Emulation worst overhead is only 30 percent on this and it runs arm, x86 by emulation with mips as native.

    So its possible that MIPS will challenge ARM chips if demand for x86 compatibility. Please note the native OS of loongson chips is Linux.

    So yes kurkosdr there is a MIPS chip that can technically run every binary made for Android at reasonable speed cost. Android has been made for 3 major platforms, ARM, MIPS, x86. There is currently only 1 chip designed to run all 3 with fairly high effectiveness.

    There is a scary little fact if you find the benchmarks Loongson chip working at 70 percent effectiveness is running ARM code is at the speed of a arm chip at exactly the same clock speed as the Loongson chip including the new ARM64 bit chips. So if makes of Loongson can raise the clock speed we will have a serous competitor.

    Yes MIPS translating keep up with ARM is not theoretical its real world product.

    I would guess Agent_Smith has run across this instruction set from China that adds set of instructions to MIPS to cure lots of the stall problems.

    If Arm did add a few extra instructions the emulation max over head would also go down from 50% to 30% in the best solution.

    Mind you intel atom demo the overhead with extensions for running arm was got as low as 10 percent but as kurkosdr says it was very incomplete and would crash this is not the case with the Loongson emulator as they started with the information from bochs and qemu.

    Intel attempting to sell x86 into the mobile market was going to result in Loongson being able to get a foot hold there claiming multi compatibility that in fact works.

    This –ahead-of-time translated by ART– is something key. Qemu default is JIT with caching in memory only so not as speedy as it could be. LoongBT and exagear desktop and intels unstable arm for atom are all Ahead of Time with fall backs to JIT. This kinda alters the running over head a lot.

    The translation cost is not at the level of not useable. The worst costs of emulating instruction sets is becoming thing of past slowly. 1/10 is around the worst we see. Before Qemu emulators were at 1/30 to 1/40 of native. Yes Qemu is 3 to 4 times faster than the historic emulator designs. The new emulator designs are 3 to 4 times faster than Qemu. In fact the new cpu emulators are coming up really close to .net or Java code speed.

    So it comes back to the same thing getting decent speed CPU and GPU not really instruction set any more because if like loongson where the MIPS is 30 percent faster than ARM at the same clock speed losing 30 percent in translation is not a issue. 1/10 performance will not be hidden by better perform by the silicon design.

  77. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus
    I have no problems with my actions sir. You are the one who has admitted to being a liar, and you are the one who has been caught out over time by several posters as being prone to being less than honest in the pursuit of winning an argument.
    Really you are a lier who does not admit it so you are worse than me. Its like the idiot action claiming that VSL was required for music making when its only a sub market. Sorry you do the same thing yet you don’t accept it yourself.

  78. kurkosdr says:

    This is btw why I absolutely loathe the extra DEX (Dalvik Executable) virtual machine language, either it’s executed by Dalvik or ahead-of-time translated by ART. We were sold on the thing on the promise apps would be portable across ISAs, later someone discovered that resource-hogging VMs have nothing to do in smartphones and tablets, especially if they are to do multimedia and games, and hence native apps and half-dalvik, half-native apps were introduced in Android 2.x So we got the worst of both worlds. And the NDK is also crap.

    One of the reason the Android gaming landscape is a few big software houses (Gameloft, Vector Unit etc) and a ton of crap games is because of this. Programming a game with the NDK actually hurts.

  79. kurkosdr says:

    MIPS will overtake over ARM, perhaps sooner than later.

    No. Because of compiled binaries being in ARM. On a theoretical level, MIPS could beat ARM by being so much better that it compensates for the overheads and the occasional hiccup of emulation, maybe with enough help from the God Of Informatics or something, but in practice, if you were an OEM like LG or HTC, would you go with an unproven architecture which comes with a possibly buggy emulator (btw Intel has the same problem, aka some NDK apps simply crash), or just go for the sure thing, aka send Qualcomm an order for the latest Snapdragon whatever?

    Look, I too think it would be great if SGI hadn’t killed MIPS on the assumption Itanium would be so great it’s not worth competing with them before even seeing the chip (yes, that’s what happened), but it happened. Good technology was buried because of stupid management decisions. Deal with it.

    I’m studying CPU architectures and there’s no way on earth that Intel CISC will ever beat RISC. No way, Jose. It’s an arch thing, RISC is simpler, less registers, less instructions, less heat and power consumption.
    I don’t consider Intel x86 to be pure CISC, aka VAX-esque risk, but something in the middle between pure RISC (aka MIPS) and CISC, and any modern implementation of x86 does a JIT of the x86 instructions into an internal RISC core, and the penalty is offset by Intel’s better fabrication. x86 lost on Android because compiled binaries.

  80. Wizard Emeritus says:

    ” You forgot by my code of action I only mirrored the actions you were doing back against you. Guess who complains at me an fails to look at there own actions.”

    I have no problems with my actions sir. You are the one who has admitted to being a liar, and you are the one who has been caught out over time by several posters as being prone to being less than honest in the pursuit of winning an argument.

    Your assertion that x86 emulation on ARM is “not bad” is in the end nothing more than your opinion. And my own research on your cited example (the exagear desktop) suggests that at best, any statements of performance (even by the vendor) are relative and subjective in the end.

  81. Agent_Smith says:

    Folks, I’m studying CPU architectures and there’s no way on earth that Intel CISC will ever beat RISC. No way, Jose. It’s an arch thing, RISC is simpler, less registers, less instructions, less heat and power consumption.
    And, I say more: MIPS will overtake over ARM, perhaps sooner than later. Because is the simplest processor out there.
    Regards,

  82. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “You accuse me of making stuff up to win and here you go yourself Wizard Emeritus.”

    I accused you of nothing. You are the one who admitted that you will lie to win an argument in previous discussions. I was just informing others as to why I challenged you.

    As far as what I said being made up, since when does expressing an opinion about
    something consitiute making something up?

  83. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus by the way kurkosdr and me have a long history.

    Kurkosdr most common problem is applying faults that effect Windows to Linux.

    Kurdosdr was half correct Intel in Android has issue with arm binaries. Desktop Linux is a different beast. Apps built in different machine language is performance/cost issue to Desktop Linux not a show stopper.

    Interesting enough windows lacks QEMU usermode/exagear desktop equal for running non native to cpu applications.

    Unlike you Wizard Emeritus with Kurdosdr he does not make stuff up to win. Commonly a miss interpretation so I have never used lies against him to win. You forgot by my code of action I only mirrored the actions you were doing back against you. Guess who complains at me an fails to look at there own actions.

    You have forgot don’t throw stones while standing in a glass house doing the wrong things.

  84. oiaohm says:

    Wizard Emeritus the fact you have state you have no practical usage for the information there is no more reason to provide any more cites. You are just attacking to be nothing more than a pest. I have given you the name of the commercial product about time you go to its website and look up what is sold for and where it used.

    Linux is clearly different to windows when it comes to multi arch issues.
    https://wiki.debian.org/QemuUserEmulation

    Yes if you are insane using usermode emulation Linux supports you can technically install every arch at once of debian on a system and run binaries from every single one.

    https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/exagear-desktop-review-virtualisation-on-pi/
    So if somewhere is running pure Linux Desktop running arm or x86 most of the time there will not be a critical functional difference if you have exagear desktop. There are plenty of reviews of it.

    Of course if you are cheap you might just use qemu usermode that is free and put up with the handful of x86 applications you need to use being slow.

    Wizard Emeritus might as well give it up I have not been using any lies so you are just wasting our complete time.

    I also believe that the market for such a capability is limited to a very small segment.
    You accuse me of making stuff up to win and here you go yourself Wizard Emeritus.

    The segment is more than large enough to support a commercial entity. Something to remember arm64 can still run armv7 code.

    http://www.androidauthority.com/arms-64-bit-architecture-is-good-for-developers-407346/
    Wizard Emeritus have challenged on that as well.

    So basically exagear desktop is Armv7 Neon and newer including all Arm64 chips running general Linux. That market space is not as small as Wizard Emeritus stupidly claimed in fact before you reply this time you have a cite showing where you got your incorrect statement form or directly admit that you are making stuff up all the time to attempt to win exactly what you just accused me of Wizard Emeritus without any facts backing you.

  85. wrote, “I also believe that the market for such a capability is limited to a very small segment.”

    There is a connection to the Wiz’s long held position that folks will use x86 because x86 software exists. It turns out that the world is cranking out software that is agnostic to platform and/or made for ARM. I read that ChromeOS will be able to run ~1million apps from Google Play. Thus the hard lines of software linked to hardware are blurring and folks are free to choose what’s good enough and cheaper, ARM. Intel seems to be giving up on mobile Atoms. Sooner or later folks will produce ARMed devices suitable for general PC use. That will be the last nail in the coffin of Wintel.

  86. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Dr Loser apparently you don’t care what Wizard Emeritus asked about. So he asked the question so at least 1 other person cares. So lets lie to attempt to win.”

    Speaking for my self , Whether one can execute x86 programs on an arm based system is ultimately to me irrelevant and uninteresting. I also believe that the market for such a capability is limited to a very small segment. However, determining whether you are once again either misrepresenting reality or outright lying to win a debate point is of interest to me.

    Hence my challenge.

  87. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “Wizard Emeritus I have not givin you direct cites to the benchmarks because of Dr Loser being a idiot who does not deserve them but I can bet with the information I have given you that you will find them absolutely no problem.”

    What I find or found is irrelevant. I wish you to back up your statement with the cites that you are using. Otherwise as far as I am concerned, you were doing nothing more than expressing your interpretation of what you found. Once I know what you have found we can proceed.

  88. oiaohm says:

    http://forum.solid-run.com/linux-on-cubox-i-and-hummingboard-f8/qemu-on-arm-t1184.html
    1/10 native speed is normal for QEMU emulating. For a lot of programs 200 MHZ is more than enough.

    When it comes to performance
    https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=111858

    You look at ExaGear Desktop on arm. Its between 0% to %50 percent overhead. How does 0% happen it recompiles the application and caches it so its fairly much running native arm binary instead of the x86 binary.

    Anyone who bothers looking for running x86 on arm on Linux find out about t ExaGear Desktop.

    Dosbox to run on dos x86 applications run basically the same on Arm as on anything x86 because that is pure emulated all the time.

    The thing massively limits ExaGear down is lack of decent GPU to pass though.

    If it was possible to get a decent speed arm chip with a decent GPU that is designed for desktop and you paid emulator you can get decent x86 application performance.

    Designed for desktop is key for the GPU. Opengl 4.5 has a lot of instructions Opengl ES does not.

    x86 emulation overhead on arm for Linux using commercial methods is not bad at all.
    x86 emulation overhead on arm for Linux using qemu at about 1/10 can be bearable.

    Having the high performance arm hardware with the GPU and everything else is the main stumbling block. This is a stumbling block to native arm binaries just as much as x86 binaries on arm.

    All a little futile, since nobody but oiaohm cares.
    Dr Loser apparently you don’t care what Wizard Emeritus asked about. So he asked the question so at least 1 other person cares. So lets lie to attempt to win.

    Its not like Wizard Emeritus to waste a time doing a post without wanting answer.

    Dr Loser no point coming and attacking me here to win a point thinking you have been absolutely wrong every single time recently and this time is no different.

    But, you know, the spirit of scientific enquiry and all.
    LOLOLOL you don’t insult people if you are expect to give you cites.

    Wizard Emeritus I have not givin you direct cites to the benchmarks because of Dr Loser being a idiot who does not deserve them but I can bet with the information I have given you that you will find them absolutely no problem.

  89. Dr Loser says:

    Well, the Wiz might be a little peremptory on this one. I am prepared to indulge our little fish-net stockinged lamp-post dwelling prize-bull losing cutie a little longer.

    kurkosdr the interesting point is that arm running x86 is not bad in performance.

    1) Using what particular emulation technique?
    2) Tested by which particular benchmark, or set of benchmarks?
    3) Resulting in which set of numbers?

    All a little futile, since nobody but oiaohm cares.

    But, you know, the spirit of scientific enquiry and all.

  90. Wizard Emeritus says:

    “kurkosdr the interesting point is that arm running x86 is not bad in performance.”

    Prove it.

  91. oiaohm says:

    kurkosdr the interesting point is that arm running x86 is not bad in performance.

    So, what is preventing Intel in Android is the same that’s preventing ARM in Desktop linux: Apps are compiled for different machine language.
    Please take a close look at debian some time. Notice that almost everything built for x86 is also built for arm.

    kurkosdr you have got it completely wrong. The reason why ARM in Desktop Linux has a problem is not applications as Debian and other Arm supporting distributions provide equal to x86 and arm. Running wine is perfectly able by using qemu and other faster commercial emulators on arm.

    The down fall is something simple. GPU support. Try getting ARM board with a powerful GPU like you find in a normal x86 PC.

  92. kurkosdr says:

    Well, Intel chips rank well in AnTuTu. The problem is binary compat. Aka all those Android apps with native ARM code (developed with the NDK in case you were wondering). Intel has some emulator in place but it takes from performance.

    So, what is preventing Intel in Android is the same that’s preventing ARM in Desktop linux: Apps are compiled for different machine language.

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