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	<title>Comments on: Clover Trail: Last Stand of Wintel</title>
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	<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/</link>
	<description>One man. Closing, all the windows.</description>
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		<title>By: ssorbom</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-97091</link>
		<dc:creator>ssorbom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-97091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mr. Pogson,
Have you read Bruce Perens&#039; take on this?
http://perens.com/blog/2012/09/15/1/index
I kind of suspected that intel wasn&#039;t handling the graphics end... Heck it sounds like their hand is currently being forced in a direction they dont want to go:
&lt;cite&gt;&quot;The next step for the Atom architecture is Valley View, which does away with PowerVR, replacing it with Intel&#039;s own grapics. Intel promises good Linux support for this architecture, and it will use smaller transistors, thus providing a speed and power efficiency gain.&quot;&lt;/cite&gt;
But Intel isn&#039;t the only one stuck with MS:
&lt;cite&gt; &quot;AMD&#039;s &quot;Hondo&quot; processor is being marketed as &quot;Windows Only&quot; too. Microsoft must be paying both manufacturers a lot for this. However, AMD is not saying the chip won&#039;t run Linux, and is indeed preparing Linux support, though not for Android.&quot; &lt;/cite&gt;
Anyway, Its kind of old news by now, I just thought it might be of interest]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Pogson,<br />
Have you read Bruce Perens&#8217; take on this?<br />
<a href="http://perens.com/blog/2012/09/15/1/index" rel="nofollow">http://perens.com/blog/2012/09/15/1/index</a><br />
I kind of suspected that intel wasn&#8217;t handling the graphics end&#8230; Heck it sounds like their hand is currently being forced in a direction they dont want to go:<br />
<cite>&#8220;The next step for the Atom architecture is Valley View, which does away with PowerVR, replacing it with Intel&#8217;s own grapics. Intel promises good Linux support for this architecture, and it will use smaller transistors, thus providing a speed and power efficiency gain.&#8221;</cite><br />
But Intel isn&#8217;t the only one stuck with MS:<br />
<cite> &#8220;AMD&#8217;s &#8220;Hondo&#8221; processor is being marketed as &#8220;Windows Only&#8221; too. Microsoft must be paying both manufacturers a lot for this. However, AMD is not saying the chip won&#8217;t run Linux, and is indeed preparing Linux support, though not for Android.&#8221; </cite><br />
Anyway, Its kind of old news by now, I just thought it might be of interest</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Pogson</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96954</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Pogson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 01:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[eug wrote, &lt;em&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;&quot;There have been rumors that Intel’s new Atom CPU, Clover Trail, would only support Windows 8, but not Android or Linux.&quot;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

Those weren&#039;t rumours but right from Intel&#039;s lips:

	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/09/clover-trail-atoms-will-give-windows-8-tablets-arm-like-battery-life/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;no audio/video drivers&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
	&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2205462/idf-intel-says-clover-trail-will-not-work-with-linux&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;no power management&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;

The only thing changed is that yes, they do admit it will run headless and flat out. Not the best for desktop/tablet usage.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eug wrote, <em><font color="green">&#8220;There have been rumors that Intel’s new Atom CPU, Clover Trail, would only support Windows 8, but not Android or Linux.&#8221;</font></em></p>
<p>Those weren&#8217;t rumours but right from Intel&#8217;s lips:</p>
<li><a href="http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/09/clover-trail-atoms-will-give-windows-8-tablets-arm-like-battery-life/" rel="nofollow">no audio/video drivers</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2205462/idf-intel-says-clover-trail-will-not-work-with-linux" rel="nofollow">no power management</a></li>
<p>The only thing changed is that yes, they do admit it will run headless and flat out. Not the best for desktop/tablet usage.</p>
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		<title>By: eug</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96943</link>
		<dc:creator>eug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Intel&#039;s new Clover Trail chip will support Android &amp; Linux

Summary: There have been rumors that Intel&#039;s new Atom CPU, Clover Trail, would only support Windows 8, but not Android or Linux. We now know that the chip will support these open-source operating systems as well.

http://www.zdnet.com/intels-new-clover-trail-chip-will-support-android-and-linux-7000004451/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intel&#8217;s new Clover Trail chip will support Android &amp; Linux</p>
<p>Summary: There have been rumors that Intel&#8217;s new Atom CPU, Clover Trail, would only support Windows 8, but not Android or Linux. We now know that the chip will support these open-source operating systems as well.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.zdnet.com/intels-new-clover-trail-chip-will-support-android-and-linux-7000004451/" rel="nofollow">http://www.zdnet.com/intels-new-clover-trail-chip-will-support-android-and-linux-7000004451/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert Pogson</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96673</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Pogson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[fuquit wrote, &lt;em&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;&quot;somewhere out there in the world there is a freetard absolutely wetting himself at the notion of running an Atom-powered server&quot;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

This is not so much about servers as client machines. Most servers using Atoms will have other Atoms that are designed to be space-saving and low-powered without needing the fancy graphics of this chip.

fuquit wrote, &lt;em&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;green&quot;&gt;&quot;I’ve never met a teacher who wanted to use Linux as anything other than Some Other OS to give kids in a How To Install 5 Different Operating Systems segment of a computer hardware class.&quot;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/em&gt;

There are lots of us out there and more who just use FLOSS apps on that other OS. Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www3.sd73.bc.ca/content/open-source-education&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a whole school division&lt;/a&gt; that used GNU/Linux desktops (1100 teachers and 15K students). They are not the only ones. The largest organizations using GNU/Linux are often school-systems. Spain, Brazil, India have had huge roll-outs and Russia is in the process. GNU/Linux works in education.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fuquit wrote, <em><font color="green">&#8220;somewhere out there in the world there is a freetard absolutely wetting himself at the notion of running an Atom-powered server&#8221;</font></em></p>
<p>This is not so much about servers as client machines. Most servers using Atoms will have other Atoms that are designed to be space-saving and low-powered without needing the fancy graphics of this chip.</p>
<p>fuquit wrote, <em><font color="green">&#8220;I’ve never met a teacher who wanted to use Linux as anything other than Some Other OS to give kids in a How To Install 5 Different Operating Systems segment of a computer hardware class.&#8221;</font></em></p>
<p>There are lots of us out there and more who just use FLOSS apps on that other OS. Here&#8217;s <a href="http://www3.sd73.bc.ca/content/open-source-education" rel="nofollow">a whole school division</a> that used GNU/Linux desktops (1100 teachers and 15K students). They are not the only ones. The largest organizations using GNU/Linux are often school-systems. Spain, Brazil, India have had huge roll-outs and Russia is in the process. GNU/Linux works in education.</p>
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		<title>By: fuquit</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96666</link>
		<dc:creator>fuquit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96666</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;When the tablets don’t sell, Intel and others will infect all of IT with other uses for these chips, everything from thin clients to servers eventually. Intel is not about to tool up for a product they cannot sell. When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.&quot;


Because somewhere out there in the world there is a freetard absolutely wetting himself at the notion of running an Atom-powered server. (you perhaps?).

And as to your experience in schools. For myself, I&#039;ve never met a teacher who wanted to use Linux as anything other than Some Other OS to give kids in a How To Install 5 Different Operating Systems segment of a computer hardware class.

Making mountains out of mole hills is your favourite passtime, innit?  Armchair Self-martyrdom is a peculiarly first world fetish.

Go out there and find yourself a cause worth fighting for, and get off your fat ass.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When the tablets don’t sell, Intel and others will infect all of IT with other uses for these chips, everything from thin clients to servers eventually. Intel is not about to tool up for a product they cannot sell. When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.&#8221;</p>
<p>Because somewhere out there in the world there is a freetard absolutely wetting himself at the notion of running an Atom-powered server. (you perhaps?).</p>
<p>And as to your experience in schools. For myself, I&#8217;ve never met a teacher who wanted to use Linux as anything other than Some Other OS to give kids in a How To Install 5 Different Operating Systems segment of a computer hardware class.</p>
<p>Making mountains out of mole hills is your favourite passtime, innit?  Armchair Self-martyrdom is a peculiarly first world fetish.</p>
<p>Go out there and find yourself a cause worth fighting for, and get off your fat ass.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: oiaohm</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96532</link>
		<dc:creator>oiaohm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Clarence Moon Imagination Technologies does not issue Intel with a NDA to the source code.

The only one allowed to see the source code of PowerVR drivers is Imagination Technologies themselves.

So everything containing PowerVR and other Imagination Technologies made items requiring drivers has to come from one source.

Coopetition normally does not work well long term particular for the consumer if the two parties are not working with each other effectively.  This is the true case of Intel and Imagination Technologies.

Coopetition is the base idea of FOSS.  Really you don&#039;t get it Clarence Moon.

Coopetition has set of events that are known to cause major screw ups.

Being a Distributor and competition to who you are in a Coopetition agreement with normally ends up with the agreement overly strict and restrictive so interfering with the positive results.

This is the case of Intel with Imagination Technologies.  Imagination Technologies fears that Intel one day will not need them.  So will not share source code with Intel because it might give away how they are so power effective.  So removing Intel need for them.

Since Intel is Imagination Technologies major distributor/customer.  Without Intel, Imagination Technologies could go under.

Its one thing competing in the same market.  Its another whey they are only only major access to the market.  VIA and AMD don&#039;t use PowerVR or any Imagination Technologies stuff in there chips.

So without Intel, Imagination Technologies has no access to the x86 market.

In arm Imagination Technologies has a very hard battle since they are mostly Linux incompatible.

I understand co-opetition better than you Clarence Moon.

There is health co-operation and unhealth co-operation.  Intel and Imagination Technologies is 100 percent sure not a healthy set-up.

Since one party cannot truly cooperate on development with the other party so has to hide secrets that could end up making the product worse.  So the co-opetition setup is unstable.

Key point of co-opetition is the means to effectively share research and development between yourselves.

This is noted on the wikipedia.
--Some difficulties also exist, as distribution of control, equity in risk, complementary needs and trust.--

The true fact is Imagination Technologies does not trust Intel so this makes there relationship unstable.  Also Imagination Technologies only targeting Windows limits their possible sales base.

Its the two points Intel has Distribution control and is a Direct competitor.  So Intel can crush them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clarence Moon Imagination Technologies does not issue Intel with a NDA to the source code.</p>
<p>The only one allowed to see the source code of PowerVR drivers is Imagination Technologies themselves.</p>
<p>So everything containing PowerVR and other Imagination Technologies made items requiring drivers has to come from one source.</p>
<p>Coopetition normally does not work well long term particular for the consumer if the two parties are not working with each other effectively.  This is the true case of Intel and Imagination Technologies.</p>
<p>Coopetition is the base idea of FOSS.  Really you don&#8217;t get it Clarence Moon.</p>
<p>Coopetition has set of events that are known to cause major screw ups.</p>
<p>Being a Distributor and competition to who you are in a Coopetition agreement with normally ends up with the agreement overly strict and restrictive so interfering with the positive results.</p>
<p>This is the case of Intel with Imagination Technologies.  Imagination Technologies fears that Intel one day will not need them.  So will not share source code with Intel because it might give away how they are so power effective.  So removing Intel need for them.</p>
<p>Since Intel is Imagination Technologies major distributor/customer.  Without Intel, Imagination Technologies could go under.</p>
<p>Its one thing competing in the same market.  Its another whey they are only only major access to the market.  VIA and AMD don&#8217;t use PowerVR or any Imagination Technologies stuff in there chips.</p>
<p>So without Intel, Imagination Technologies has no access to the x86 market.</p>
<p>In arm Imagination Technologies has a very hard battle since they are mostly Linux incompatible.</p>
<p>I understand co-opetition better than you Clarence Moon.</p>
<p>There is health co-operation and unhealth co-operation.  Intel and Imagination Technologies is 100 percent sure not a healthy set-up.</p>
<p>Since one party cannot truly cooperate on development with the other party so has to hide secrets that could end up making the product worse.  So the co-opetition setup is unstable.</p>
<p>Key point of co-opetition is the means to effectively share research and development between yourselves.</p>
<p>This is noted on the wikipedia.<br />
&#8211;Some difficulties also exist, as distribution of control, equity in risk, complementary needs and trust.&#8211;</p>
<p>The true fact is Imagination Technologies does not trust Intel so this makes there relationship unstable.  Also Imagination Technologies only targeting Windows limits their possible sales base.</p>
<p>Its the two points Intel has Distribution control and is a Direct competitor.  So Intel can crush them.</p>
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		<title>By: Clarence Moon</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96528</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarence Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2012 14:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Yes things get wrong when you are someone competition and their distributor at the same time.&lt;/b&gt;

Oh, that is what NDAs and contracts and lawyers are used for, Mr. O, although I am sure such things are way outside of your ken.  It is called &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coopetition&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;co-opetition&quot;&lt;/a&gt; and is the basis for many joint ventures and even for FLOSS development where you have to tell your prospective competitor all your secrets in order to participate.  Commercial companies do it in a much more controlled manner, of course, and it is not at all necessary for crazy schemes such as the GPL to be used to ensure disclosure.  Simple contracts and the laws of the land will suffice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Yes things get wrong when you are someone competition and their distributor at the same time.</b></p>
<p>Oh, that is what NDAs and contracts and lawyers are used for, Mr. O, although I am sure such things are way outside of your ken.  It is called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coopetition" rel="nofollow">&#8220;co-opetition&#8221;</a> and is the basis for many joint ventures and even for FLOSS development where you have to tell your prospective competitor all your secrets in order to participate.  Commercial companies do it in a much more controlled manner, of course, and it is not at all necessary for crazy schemes such as the GPL to be used to ensure disclosure.  Simple contracts and the laws of the land will suffice.</p>
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		<title>By: oiaohm</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96491</link>
		<dc:creator>oiaohm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 22:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96491</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[iLia  png and jpeg libraries shipped with the OS are the same source  base between Windows Linux and OS X.  Issue here is windows normally slower on the update them.  So most applications ship there own copy.

Next is Ubuntu bug list include programs like vlc that run on OS X, Windows and Linux.  100 000 bugs of what basically.  To get useful number for compare would take a serous amount of time iLia.  The question is what percentage turn out to be cross platform issues.

Clarence Moon when it comes to PowerVR designs.  Intel has already tried to make drivers for it.  The parent company is not what you call cooperative.

Yes intel is producing the chip.  But they cannot see the source code of the drivers they are going to use and have to hope PowerVR maker Imagination Technologies does not go under as well.  Since then they would have a stack of chips they can never update the driver on.

PowerVR source will not be shared with Intel because Intel is their video card competition.

Yes things get wrong when you are someone competition and their distributor at the same time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>iLia  png and jpeg libraries shipped with the OS are the same source  base between Windows Linux and OS X.  Issue here is windows normally slower on the update them.  So most applications ship there own copy.</p>
<p>Next is Ubuntu bug list include programs like vlc that run on OS X, Windows and Linux.  100 000 bugs of what basically.  To get useful number for compare would take a serous amount of time iLia.  The question is what percentage turn out to be cross platform issues.</p>
<p>Clarence Moon when it comes to PowerVR designs.  Intel has already tried to make drivers for it.  The parent company is not what you call cooperative.</p>
<p>Yes intel is producing the chip.  But they cannot see the source code of the drivers they are going to use and have to hope PowerVR maker Imagination Technologies does not go under as well.  Since then they would have a stack of chips they can never update the driver on.</p>
<p>PowerVR source will not be shared with Intel because Intel is their video card competition.</p>
<p>Yes things get wrong when you are someone competition and their distributor at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: Clarence Moon</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96490</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarence Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 22:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Expense is not the issue.&lt;/b&gt;

Intel says that it is, who are you to differ?  Without knowing the extent of the work required to supply the interfaces, you cannot say what the cost is.  Without knowing Intel&#039;s estimation of how many parts might be sold with Windows support alone and with support for Windows and some other operating systems, you cannot determine whether their decision was correct or not.  If it cost $1M to develop a driver and there would only be 100,000 additional parts sold at $8 each, then the decision is sound.  You can only guess at the numbers and you do not have any experience in the issues to even begin to make any accurate guess.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Expense is not the issue.</b></p>
<p>Intel says that it is, who are you to differ?  Without knowing the extent of the work required to supply the interfaces, you cannot say what the cost is.  Without knowing Intel&#8217;s estimation of how many parts might be sold with Windows support alone and with support for Windows and some other operating systems, you cannot determine whether their decision was correct or not.  If it cost $1M to develop a driver and there would only be 100,000 additional parts sold at $8 each, then the decision is sound.  You can only guess at the numbers and you do not have any experience in the issues to even begin to make any accurate guess.</p>
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		<title>By: iLia</title>
		<link>http://mrpogson.com/2012/09/14/clover-trail-last-stand-of-wintel/#comment-96478</link>
		<dc:creator>iLia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mrpogson.com/?p=14244#comment-96478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Remember OS X, Linux and Windows do share some libraries.&lt;/b&gt;

An example, please.

&lt;b&gt;When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.&lt;/b&gt;

And why Intel or other big CPU producers don&#039;t create and sell Linux-only CPUs? Maybe it is because 3/4 of Linux users use Windows as well?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Remember OS X, Linux and Windows do share some libraries.</b></p>
<p>An example, please.</p>
<p><b>When they do sell them, some millions of units will be unavailable for */Linux.</b></p>
<p>And why Intel or other big CPU producers don&#8217;t create and sell Linux-only CPUs? Maybe it is because 3/4 of Linux users use Windows as well?</p>
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