SJVN piles on about the use of GNU/Linux on the desktop. Here’s his list:
- Linux distributors need to take the traditional desktop seriously
- Pound on PC vendors’ doors.
- Work even harder to get low-level hardware vendor support.
- Slow down the pace of change.
- Give independent software vendors (ISV)s more support.
I agree with most of what he writes. However, it’s not just GNU/Linux that has to do these things. ISVs should be able to choose their own interface even if the distros do not. If the ISVs accept Ubuntu GNU/Linux as the lingua franca of software on GNU/Linux that’s what will happen. Canonical is a little flighty so the ISVs could actually decide to make a distro on their own. They are a large enough group to do that. The ISVs could also ship their favourite distro inside a virtual machine that will run on any distro. That’s bulky but it would be worthwhile and workable on today’s huge PCs.
He’s right about the pace of change, too. It’s just silly that every library gets updated every few months so that new software has to wait until the majority of distros come to the same level if they ever do. Decide on a minimal set of libraries and stick with it for a while. The end user won’t know and won’t care. It’s also silly to have multiple incompatible GUIs if that impacts development of software. To some extent the GUIs will work with any graphics library so I don’t see that as a killer.
The “pounding on PC vendor’s doors” thing misses the point somewhat. It’s not enough to pound on OEMs doors. They already ship GNU/Linux if anyone asks. Pound on the retailers’ and distributors’ doors and make sure they ask. Already business and governments are large enough to obtain shipments of GNU/Linux PCs. It’s the consumer who is shut out in North America and somewhat in Europe and Japan.
GNU/Linux already has “8″ beat. That’s why M$ is going to ARM and simplifying the user-interface. GNU/Linux has been doing both for ages and winning. Android/Linux has really been breaking down barriers by doing what SJVN suggests. It will work for GNU/Linux too.
The key issue about GUI that I see is that Canonical is producing an Android-like user-interface for desktops. That won’t fly. There must be more flexibility for OEMs than that. If an OEM is shipping a desktop or notebook PC with obvious keyboard and pointer inputs a smartphone interface is not ideal. OEMs will have to be given choice just as the current installed base of GNU/Linux has now. Canonical, if it is to be the major distro, has to continue offering choice. I don’t believe they are big enough to do that on their own. They have to cooperate better with Debian and others to allow more choice not less. For the work I did in schools X and XFCE4 was ideal. It will be hard for large sections of IT to accept cripple-ware or bloat from Canonical as a better tool. GNU/Linux in its present form could be as prevalent as Android/Linux with just a few changes.
see Five things Desktop Linux has to do to beat Windows 8 | ZDNet.
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Good luck, Pogson, though I am pretty certain 8 already has a bigger share on desktop than Linux.
Phenom wrote, “I am pretty certain 8 already has a bigger share on desktop than Linux.”
Not at all. Even M$’s “partner” NetApplications says differently:
” Linux 1.10%
Windows 8 0.23%”
“7″ had twice that share by the time of release.
Windows 8 will be hailed with bribed reviews, pissed off OEM’s, pissed off developers, a 1:4 ratio of apps, features will be errors and anti-features will be innovations and all the while providing a superior gaming experience on Linux.
Do not get me wrong 8 *looks* good, but lets not forget a famous saying shall we? If you can’t make it good, at least make it look good.
Upcoming problems:
1. Upgrades Won’t Work Well
2. Poor Support For Old Hardware
3. Enterprises Will Be Slow To Adopt or Skip
4. XP and 7 Market Domination
5. Windows 8 Tablet Pricing
6. People Despise Change
7. Locked BIOS Disallow’s Repairs
8. Competition with OEM’s
9. Forcing a Unwanted Interface
10. Too Little Too Late
11. Losing Domination in PC’s
Conclusion:
Windows users waste all their money and computer budget on Microsoft bugs, malware, insecurity software, and repair services which mandate re-installing Windows.
Linux distributors need to take the traditional desktop seriously</b
No way!
Slow down the pace of change.
Burn in hell!
Give independent software vendors (ISV)s more support.
Vendors? He said vendors? All software should be free!
This guy is a real linuxophobe.
That’s bulky but it would be worthwhile and workable on today’s huge PCs.
And what about small and cheap computers?
Canonical is producing an Android-like user-interface for desktops
No, Canonical is trying to produce a Mac-like user-interface.
GNU/Linux in its present form could be as prevalent as Android/Linux with just a few changes.
— Fix sound system
— Provide good drivers for not-that-new videocards
— Fix these many, many bugs
GNU/Linux has been doing both for ages and winning.
~%1.5 Epic Win
Canonical, if it is to be the major distro, has to continue offering choice.
– Ubuntu
– Kubuntu
– Xubuntu
– Lubuntu
You wanna even more choise?
Canonical, if it is to be the major distro
They are already the major distro
Regarding Windows 8, all the Linux distributions have already beat it.
How?
Early users of Windows 8′s built-in Internet Explorer may find themselves at risk of exploitation via the Flash plugin, as the version included with Windows 8 is out of date. Adobe patched Flash on August 21 to resolve known security flaws, but the patch can’t be applied to Internet Explorer 10.
Internet Explorer 10 bundles Adobe Flash, with Microsoft taking on responsibility for shipping updates to the integrated plugin. One repercussion of this arrangement is that Adobe’s patches and autoupdate mechanism can’t be used; they can update the standalone version used by Firefox, but not the embedded version in Internet Explorer. The same is true of Chrome; it includes an embedded version of Flash, and the only way to update that is with a Chrome update. Adobe’s updater can’t touch it.
Conclusion:
Linux is NOT affected by the above mess. Windows is for games and malware, Linux is for work!
dougman, you are miserable.
Early users of Windows 8′s built-in Internet Explorer may find themselves at risk of exploitation via the Flash plugin, as the version included with Windows 8 is out of date.
How can Microsoft change it? These versions of Windows are already printed. So the users will get this bug fixed with the first Windows patch. And you want to say that there are no bugs and vulnerabilities on Linux?
And anyway there will not be a lot of early users of Windows 8.
4. XP and 7 Market Domination
No place for Linux, sorry
*cough-cough*
Yea, miserable, that’s the new Windows security model these days.
http://goo.gl/QVxbQ
Notice the flat-line of Linux.
iLia –Give independent software vendors (ISV)s more support.
Vendors? He said vendors? All software should be free!
This guy is a real linuxophobe.–
Vendors don’t just include people making closed source and charging money. Places like http://fritzing.org/download/ come to mind that group is still a Vendor. There are open source ISV’s.
Notes the two Linux binaries. No distribution dependency. These are done exploiting a feature of the default Linux loader with out using the Linux Standard Base loader.
Basically iLia you have a bigot point of view on what a ISV is.
This is why when a developer say I cannot release a platform neutral Linux binary I laugh. There are methods they do work. Yes they could be made simpler.
First major problem is getting the fact out that cross distribution binaries are possible and do work. More cross distribution binaries more need for distributions to get outside their walled gardens.
iLia Ubuntu lacks in its complete tree lacks choice in how the performance of the desktop works. Default is not configured how normal Windows users expects. Closer to how a OS X user expects but even then its not right and lacks the customisation options to replicate either.
iLia
–No, Canonical is trying to produce a Mac-like user-interface.–
They are doing more than replicating the Mac-like interface. They are also replicating the performance of OS X incompletely.
So as the right distribution to push forwards Ubuntu and all its relations most likely not until something changes. Due to the fact the dominate users to convert are Windows users.
ulatencyd that you find in fedora, arch and opensuse kinda as default and optional in debian and many others. Can replicate performance shape of Windows also replicate the performance shape of OS X.
The change to systemd does get a lot of BSD neck-beards out. launchd in OS X and systemd are related designs. This is why its so funny that Ubuntu is not shipping systemd.
–And what about small and cheap computers?–
More of these are turning up as open design hardware. So fully Linux supported. Since its too costly to be greedy at that scale.
Most small and cheap computers are in fact the chip makers reference designs. Open design hardware is about the only ones in small and cheap that alter major-ally from the reference design.
Because each company can make a small fairly cost effective alteration to the reference design and by sharing it these small fairly cost effective alterations to reference design stack up to something completely different.
So it turns out the idea of FOSS applies to hardware.
iLia
–Provide good drivers for not-that-new videocards–
Compared to Windows Linux does provide good drivers for not that new video cards. I will will agree that could be better.
Please learn the different between a secuirty notice and a bug iLia.
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-1563-1/
If you would spend you time opening all those security notice you will find that almost all are in fact fixed.
The security notice tells you what package or latter should be installed on you system to prevent that attack.
So quoting http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/ is a troll path as sign of problem. In fact every one published on the 10 of September there is fixed just by running Ubuntu update. Not one lists you have todo a work around to prevent issue. You find in MS equal to USN to prevent particular issues you still have todo work around.
Running windows update does not fix items like Thunderbird.
iLia Linux currently does have a issue with new and almost new video cards since the drivers are in tip of mainline Linux kernel and not getting back to older kernels quickly at all. backport at kernel.org should address this.
The few that are not fixed on Ubuntu usn are delete the package as work around since the package is deprecated and no longer used by any modern application. So not a work around like windows where is hack a registry entry or something else and pray it works and does not get reset so making the flaw come back without you knowing.
“Windows 8 will be hailed with bribed reviews,”
Haha, you mean like those bribed reviews of Vista?
“pissed off OEM’s, pissed off developers,”
What’s to be pissed off about? That I can build apps with HTML, CSS and Javascript that can talk to the WinRT layer? Oh darn, I’ll bet web developers everywhere are pissed that they can use their existing skills to build desktop apps now.
“a 1:4 ratio of apps,”
In comparison to what? Anything that ran on 7 runs on 8. Where did you get this statistic?
“features will be errors and anti-features will be innovations”
Windows on ARM, that’s anti-feature, right?
“and all the while providing a superior gaming experience on Linux.”
Yeah, having virtually no games sort of makes that impossible. Even those Loki games don’t even run on Linux anymore, thanks to that wonderful ABI instability.
“Windows users waste all their money and computer budget…”
All their computer budget on Windows? How can they afford the rest of the computer then? How can they afford an iPad or iPhone to sync with that computer?
In reality, most people buy a new computer and get Windows installed as an OEM. If an OEM isn’t bought in bulk it’s $100. But when vendors like Dell buy it, they buy in bulk and get steep discounts. The cost of shipping your laptop is generally higher than the cost of Windows being installed on it. And many vendors typically eat the cost themselves since “no OS” options cost exactly the same.
“http://goo.gl/QVxbQ
Notice the flat-line of Linux.”
Haha, you realize the trend is about Microsoft Security Essentials, right? Most of the related articles are talking about how security has vastly improved. Hell, some of the articles are talking about Microsoft helping Adobe fix their bugs in Flash player and Acrobat viewer.
Actually read you links next time instead of expecting people to just glance at the pictures.
TM Repository
–Windows on ARM, that’s anti-feature, right?–
Windows RT does not support Allwinner A10 chips and many other ARM chips.
TM Repository
–Even those Loki games don’t even run on Linux anymore, thanks to that wonderful ABI instability.–
All Loki games can still be made run on Modern day Linux systems.
http://www.swanson.ukfsn.org/loki/
2.7 Meg download 10 meg hard-drive runtime required to run them all. A lot of the Loki games work without the runtime. Those instructions are distribution neutral. Heck I have even made them work on arm using qemu to convert x86 to arm.
Again here you are spreading myths. Its like trying to run a program that was build with Microsoft Visual studio 6 without the C++ runtime that matches up. It don’t work.
This is the problem the runtime to make the applications distribution in-dependant are not huge.
This scanelf -Rnq /path/game/binary command mentioned on that site is very useful for working out what libraries an application requires to be taken cross platform.
/path/Loki_Compat/ld-linux.so.2 in the instructions is force overriding the applications own-loader.
There is nothing preventing ABI being provided as run-times other than the fact distributions don’t.
Really run times should be made independent to distributions.
TM Repository about time you give up on the ABI instability thing. Notice that the MS runtimes for there compliers are kinda a little large than 10 megs installed.
There is nothing the distributions really need todo about ABI stability. Its that the commercials are not providing binary run-times. Solutions to Linux ABI stability is simply copy what you do for windows and ship your program with the runtime it needs. Or the option to install the runtime it needs. So it don’t work install this runtime package if it now works it something in that distribution. Mostly likely never hear another complaint from that user. Most don’t notice your program is running old libraries.
“All Loki games can still be made run on Modern day Linux systems.
http://www.swanson.ukfsn.org/loki/”
Oh, is that all? Because on Windows, when I click on Unreal Tournament it just runs. I don’t have to trick the game into using a different version of glibc because of “Unknown changes in glibc 2.3 (and newer) cause problems for these old games resulting in a segmentation fault”.
But thanks for solidifying my point that the “linux gaming experience”, as Dougman calls it, is horrible.
To betruthful there is nothing in the FHS standard that prevents someone making a /opt/-common/ Package with that companies own dynamic loader and runtime so completely isolating them from whatever distributions do to their runtime. Also making their programs completely distribution neutral.
There is absolutely no reason to be fighting against what distributions do in there ABI.
TM Repository
–“Unknown changes in glibc 2.3 (and newer) cause problems for these old games resulting in a segmentation fault”.–
Do you know what glibc is equal to under windows. The answer is MSVCRT. Old program under windows with the wrong version of MSVCRT also dies with segment faults or fails to run because the library is missing.
If you check Unreal Tournament install directory under Windows you will find it shipped with its own copy of MSVCRT.
The issue under Linux is programs not shipping with their require run-times. Instead expecting distributions to provide those run-times all the time. So breakages.
If loki games were Linux Standard Base programs the loader support a lib directory where the game is installed in /opt/. Linux Standard Base programs place the libraries they need with them and the user can then just click on the game and it runs.
To be correct the loki games I have changed the loader of the binaries over.
https://github.com/NixOS/patchelf
So this
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/path/Loki_Compat/ /path/Loki_Compat/ld-linux.so.2 /path/CivCTP/civctp.dynamic
Becomes
patchelf –set-interpreter /path/Loki_Compat/ld-linux.so.2 /path/CivCTP/civctp.dynamic
patchelf –set-rpath /path/Loki_Compat/ /path/CivCTP/civctp.dynamic
So after that the program is just click run.
Not everyone distribution has patchelf. But its part of elf file standard to be able todo that. patchelf does built as a static binary that will run anywhere.
So yes Linux does include means todo compatibility modes.
TM Repository us who know what we are doing have a very nice time because we know how the system can be bent.
This is something people don’t know I can convert a lot of distribution package to a Linux Standard Base one by simply converting its loader and making sure I package up the libraries it uses that are not ABI standard.
Of course some day I need todo a GUI up so normal people can do it. Of course some programs need to be rebuilt to reference private /etc and /shared settings instead of system wide. Lot of programs in distributions are relocatable so don’t need modification to be made cross distribution.
“Do you know what glibc is equal to under windows. The answer is MSVCRT. Old program under windows with the wrong version of MSVCRT also dies with segment faults or fails to run because the library is missing.”
Except that never happens because each game bundles the correct runtime in their installer.
“The issue under Linux is programs not shipping with their require run-times. Instead expecting distributions to provide those run-times all the time. So breakages.”
Exactly, so to reiterate, the “dougman linux gaming experience” is a bad one. What’s even sadder is these are pretty much the best games you can get for desktop Linux with the youngest of the bunch being over a decade old.
TM Repository
–Except that never happens because each game bundles the correct runtime in their installer.–
I would swap never for Most. Not all game developers are competent even under Windows. Some do forget to include the runtimes in their installers and end users have to fix it even under Windows.
So no matter what platform you run you will always have so much incompetence. The problem here has been most of the closed source bundling has been incompetent and you guys as idiots are trying to put the blame on Distributions.
There are a few closed source games for Linux that are bundled correctly. This should become the norm if people would push for it.
TM Repository
–Exactly, so to reiterate, the “dougman linux gaming experience” is a bad one. What’s even sadder is these are pretty much the best games you can get for desktop Linux with the youngest of the bunch being over a decade old.–
Part of the problem as been people like you getting the problem completely wrong. So game companies believing that porting games to Linux is far harder than its really is.
So reality you are to blame TM Repository in part for the lack software on Linux. This is general lack of closed source software on Linux traces to idiots saying the stuff you were TM Repository. So please get it right in future and pull up those who get it wrong. TM Repository is meant to be anti lie is about time they clean up some of the lies they have propagated.
Properly bundled closed source does not give a rats about the distribution packages. Since they are isolated from them or can be isolate really simply.
TM Repository by the way what patchelf does with changing loaders and rpath options was design into the elf file format by Sun Microsystems and is used in Solaris for compatibility support. This was even before Linux existed or even started using Elf.
So the solution to all this hell of binary incompatibility for applications is embedded so deep in the core of Linux that is not removable. Its been there for over 15 years and you still find closed source makers bundling their applications wrong.
Its not like I am using modern features to get around the problem. Or even doing something different to what was done before Linux on Solaris. Pity the closed source application makers who knew how do their job properly on Solaris did not come across to Linux and set a good example.
So we are talking an over 25 year old method. Older than Linux itself.
Linux Standard Base is about the only modern thing since its has relative to binary library loading path in its loader ie /somewhere/bin/program runs and the loader looks /somewhere/lib for its libraries and if you change somewhere it automatically corrects. Where under solaris you were doing like patchelf with the ldd(solaris relinker) to change the rpath information. So if you moved the program it broke until you corrected. That is the only modern change to the process. To allow your programs to be isolated from upstream changes.
TM Repository when you know the solution has been sitting there for the complete time of Linux existence the problem now comes why in hell is Linux lacking closed source binary applications.
Only thing result you can reach is too many people have been spreading the lie that its impossible and not enough spreading the solution.
Linux on the (consumer) Desktop
Overview
Arriving back from vacation, I read Miguel’s thoughts on the state of the Linux Desktop in the race for the consumer market; I happen to mostly agree with his conclusion – that we’re still facing a huge up-hill struggle there. While I have huge respect for his experience and insight, I think the causes are larger. My punch-line is that the Linux Desktop faces a huge and multi-factored ecosystem challenge, there is no single simple issue to fix. Over the last decade I’ve been peripherally involved in trying to tackle many of the problems in this area, here are some of my random thoughts and open questions on the topic, there are no radical new insights:
(…)
http://people.gnome.org/~michael/blog/2012-09-10-desktop-linux.html
“Windows 8′s split personality, desktop/mobile, doesn’t offer choice — it creates tension,” said Slashdot blogger yagu. “It is a user-dilemma.” In an informal poll of his peers, in fact, yagu “found unanimous agreement that Windows 8 is weird at best, off the rails and horrible at worst, and no one expressed any interest in having Windows 8 on any of their computers.”
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/A-Week-with-Windows-8-and-Other-Tales-of-Linuxy-Virtue-76112.html
eug, that’s a classic commentary on how the emperor has no clothes. The guys at the top assume they can do anything and the little guys will follow. It’s embarrassing when the plan fails… M$ had one huge writeoff recently. I wonder when they will writeoff that other OS…
From linux to mac and back in one month:
http://br-mac.org/2012/09/do-linux-para-o-mac-e-de-volta-ao-linux-um-mes-depois/
Excellent post, eug. I agree that most of what you have in the linked article is true but disagree on the effects.
If GNU/Linux were on retail shelves everywhere some would sell because many buyers are not locked-in and may be quite price-sensitive. That’s certainly true because it’s happening in emerging markets like Brazil, Malaysia and China. The present status of GNU/Linux and its ecosystem is quite useful for consumers and small businesses, the bulk of users of PCs. That large businesses want certain software and don’t care so much about the cost is irrelevant for many users.
So, I still believe the key bottleneck is access to retail shelves, not all this other stuff. That will come. If ISVs want to make software for GNU/Linux they can control the process by creating their own distro, automatically eliminating all the problems listed. The world can make its own software any way it wants and does not have to accept M$’s toll-booth. It’s looking as though Ubuntu will be that distro but Canonical still has to accept that a variety of GUIs is a good thing considering some units are a few cm in size and others fill rooms. A touch screen is kind of useless for the biggies. A mouse is kind of useless for a tiny portable thingy.
If you doubt GNU/Linux is widely used on desktops and is popular check out http://www.walmart.com.br or Malaysia – Government Decision on OSS Implementation. Certainly GNU/Linux and FLOSS have great advantages for government and education where IT is not about making money but processing information and many of the issues raised are secondary to licensing and openness.
The Malaysian government gives priority to FLOSS:
“All CIOs must understand that OSS should be given priority in consideration of the implementation of ICT in their respective ministries to ensure that the public sector is not left behind in the digital era. Public sector should have a policy and clear guidelines OSS and enhance human resources with expertise and extensive knowledge of the OSS.”
The floodgates are open and people are whining about progress. Silly.
eug Michael Meeks is a very core developer.
eug yes there are enough true battles for Linux ahead without parties going around spreading myths.
ISV’s most need to be able to make money. Distributions are not designed to pay ISV’s anything by doing their development once. I see this as a key problem. Steam and Desura does this for games.
Steam will do it for productivity applications as well. Yes we need these channels. Once you can sell software simply you can give kick backs. Kick backs get you retail space.
Robert Pogson retail is mostly about the upsell. So each single sale can make the business more money. Linux has not been good for the up sell.
Robert Pogson
–If ISVs want to make software for GNU/Linux they can control the process by creating their own distro, automatically eliminating all the problems listed.–
Not exactly. Linux kernel is designed to support a unlimited number of binary runtime environments. Most distribution only provide 1 runtime environments.
Main reason you cannot install every distribution binaries on the same kernel without using items like chroot is that they have named there dynamic loaders identically and overlapped directory struct. When making a new runtime this is useful. Reason you have limited locations to look at in the alien runtime to your own and its fairly simple to avoid the runtime the user will have installed.
The reality is the closed source are fully free to roll there own runtime even group up as a collective and form their own runtime that performs as well if not better than distribution provided.
Robert Pogson commercial software wants access to users rolling your own distribution really does not get you that. Rolling your own runtime so that distributions don’t bother your developers is a good out come. Since you now can have access to most of the Linux world users. Of course you need the extras like how to tell users about new versions and sell them new versions.
“TM Repository us who know what we are doing have a very nice time because we know how the system can be bent.”
So you personally can geek things up and use esoteric workarounds. The fact that you have to at all is frankly a load of Horsehockey.
“?If ISVs want to make software for GNU/Linux they can control the process by creating their own distro, automatically eliminating all the problems listed.–”
Oh really?
Tell me Hamster Why should they go through the hassle at all. On the desktop they have guaranteed revenue streams from windows development. There is simply no incentive to jump through the hoops that you propose whan they can just develop for windows.
Beating TMR over the head with your supposed workaround serves no useful purpose IMHO beyond once again tooting your own horn in your attempts once again to prove that you are the smartest kid in the room.
Actually you arent being very bright IMHO. If you really think that you solution is best the quit whining on this site and get to work developing howtos that ISV’s can use. If you ARE that good it should be a breeze Hamster.
oldman
–Actually you arent being very bright IMHO. If you really think that you solution is best the quit whining on this site and get to work developing howtos that ISV’s can use. If you ARE that good it should be a breeze Hamster.–
You have seen my English. Feel like doing the proof reading and conversion. Has it not crossed you mind that I would have done it by now other than the fact I understand my limitations. When others like Linux Standard Base are doing very good well written english why is it sane for me to redo.
The solution is not my solution alone. The Linux Standard Base idea did not come from no where. There are two dominate and documented solutions to the ABI hell. Linux Standard Base and Loader bending both work.
oldman really how was I meant to stop TM Repository from spreading a complete lie. Not like you stepped up its a solaris invention that is the cure.
You did the same thing only surface read LSB. Not what is fully allows.
Please note I was very clear to state the solution is not my invention. Its a forgot invention by some. An invention you most likely had dealings with oldman.
oldman the simple reality here is you should have known and stopped TM Repository. This is the issue I should not be the smartest kid in the room. How ABI compatibility is done is basics.
How it works is also basics. Problem is no programming course is teaching it. So student don’t know how Windows is doing it. Presume a stack of things that are completely not true.
Windows User space ABI is really not that stable. Its masked over by applications shipping large sections of runtime.
OS X does provide a fairly stable abi but even it comes with major issues maintaining that.
Oldman your arguement now comes down to since Windows exists why would the release for Linux.
That is not a question I have to answer. Companies release for Linux all the time. For different reasons. The reality is the more that do and its successful the more that will. Human greed if you see someone making 20 dollars and you are making 200 if you can work out how to get there 20 dollars and keep you 200 you will.
The more that understand the more applications Linux will get. Greed will see to that.
Windows will still be top dog when most of the FLOSS clowns here are long gone. Just deal with it, people, instead of indulging in pointless fantasies where you need fat, bearded men like Gabe Newell to fulfill them. If anything, Ubuntu will be given preferential treatment from Newell & Co., and it will be able to carve out a little niche for itself. The rest of Linux will remain like it was: dead in the water.
Thorsten Rahn funny question is how big of a little niche the XT computer was said to be a little niche too.
Hey, dougman, you’re a real piece of work. You’ve posted your sucky list for the 3rd time now. Is your sorry excuse of a business failing? Not enough people buy anti-malware and anti-virus software from the shady salesman? You need to convince yourself that people will switch to Linux in spades, and you can make money from it?
Let’s look at your list:
1. Upgrades Won’t Work Well
Meaning?
They did work well, they do work well, and, yes, they will work well.
2. Poor Support For Old Hardware
Unless you get your computers from the local dumpster, there won’t be any problems.
3. Enterprises Will Be Slow To Adopt or Skip
I guess that’s why Red Hat enjoys so much success selling a really long-term Linux distribution.
4. XP and 7 Market Domination
Microsoft is in it for the long haul, so Windows 8 will come to dominate naturally.
5. Windows 8 Tablet Pricing
Tablet pricing will be competitive. You’ll see.
6. People Despise Change
Then switching to Linux is out of the question. And people do not despise change. What they do despise is change for the worse. Switching to Linux means choosing the old, ugly donkey.
7. Locked BIOS Disallow’s Repairs
PC’s BIOSes won’t be locked. And tablets are, by all means and purposes, black boxes for users. If there’s something to repair, the manufacturer can do it. But you ignore the fact that tablets and smartphones are — you may find this sad — the perfect throw-away devices. Use them for two years, throw them away, get something new.
8. Competition with OEM’s
Competition is good. Ask Rob.
9. Forcing a Unwanted Interface
Well, then people can just switch to Linux where they are greeted by about 10 unwanted user interfaces, each one being equally crappy.
10. Too Little Too Late
Again, Microsoft is in it for the long haul. The Xbox 360 is proof (among other things).
11. Losing Domination in PC’s
I think you’ll find out that Windows will continue to dominate pretty good.
Thorsten Rahn
–Again, Microsoft is in it for the long haul. The Xbox 360 is proof–
–Microsoft is in it for the long haul, so Windows 8 will come to dominate naturally.–
Libreoffice and Gimp are very big examples that FOSS are also playing a long haul game.
LibreOffice is chipping away at MS market. Just not quickly yet.
–I guess that’s why Red Hat enjoys so much success selling a really long-term Linux distribution.–
Its why Redhat does not change extra to upgrade. Support cost stays the same if you stay with old or upgrade.
Extra cost to upgrade gives enterprises an excuse to skip versions. MS sales model triggers Enterprises to skip.
[quote]
In an informal poll of his peers, in fact, yagu “found unanimous agreement that Windows 8 is weird at best, off the rails and horrible at worst, and no one expressed any interest in having Windows 8 on any of their computers.”
[endquote]
Breaking news! Slashdot bloggers don’t like new version of Windows! OMG the sky is falling!
http://penguinday.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/and-the-freetards-hated/
ch difference is we have never had a game company and other major software produces talk against XP.
Windows 8 is different.
Thorsten Rahn wrote, of “8″, “Tablet pricing will be competitive. You’ll see.”
That’s not what OEMs are saying… They are saying prices will finally kill the netbook because it will add $100 to the price… Of course that won’t affect GNU/Linux netbooks so expect a resurgence. The “pro” price will be $199. That will drive “8″ from most small cheap computers unless the OEMs can produce them for $0 which is unlikely. Most OEMs have trouble producing a tablet that can sell for $100 with a $0 OS. Imagine a $100 */Linux tablet competing against a $299 tablet with exactly the same hardware… That won’t fly in most regions.
Mr Pogson,
it seems to me that netbooks are dying just now. Maybe I’m not the only one who found out that they are just too limited to want to do much stuff on them. Tablets and notebooks aren’t really that much more expensive, and my prediction is that Win8 tablets with attached keyboard will take over the notebook-surrogate market.
oiaohm wrote, “Its masked over by applications shipping large sections of runtime.”
Yes. That’s a huge difference in the way software is distributed. Many applications for Wintel are enormous and it’s not necessarily bloat but included libraries. UNIX OSes generally don’t need/want to do that but it’s getting so that the GUI drags in so many megabytes that it amounts to the same thing. Shared memory certainly reduces stuff in RAM in UNIX OSes compared to that other OS this way. I have run systems with 50MB/user rule and it was fine for the browsers and word-processors of the day. Now we need 100MB and that other OS needs 1000MB.
Now we need 100MB and that other OS needs 1000MB.
A fine scientific observation. Or was it just you talking out of your a*s again? Rob’s quest for the best unsubstantiated claims continue.
Many applications for Wintel are enormous and it’s not necessarily bloat but included libraries.
It’s the sensible thing to do. Windows has put its DLL hell behind it, Linux has swallowed it whole and renamed it dependency hell.
Thorsten Rahn wrote, “A fine scientific observation. Or was it just you talking out of your a*s again? Rob’s quest for the best unsubstantiated claims continue.”
I have run 30 students’ sessions, applications included and the GNU/Linux OS in 1.5gB while that other OS requires 1gB just to support one user. QED Beast here, has 4gB RAM and could easily run more than 50 simultaneous users. Beast has several gigabit/s NICs should bandwidth be an issue. Two years ago, I ran a small lab in my mathematics classroom with a dozen simultaneous users on a 1gB GNU/Linux terminal server.
Look at LTSP.org. Their recommendation is 192MB/user on the terminal server.
“Memory
A GNU/Linux based operating system makes efficient use of memory. The usual formula that’s used for adding memory to a thin client server is:
256 + (192 * users) MB
So, if your target is to have a server with 20 terminals, you’ll need:
256 + (192 * 20) = 256 + 3840 = 4096 MB”
That was 50MB/user a few years back but it still works today using plain X, no X server on the terminal server and XFCE4 rather than GNOME or KDE. The LTSP recommendation assume KDE or GNOME.
OK, I did an oiaohm and googled this:
[quote]
•On a Terminal Server 64 MB per user is the Ideal Memory (RAM) requirement for GP Only use + 2 GB for OS E.g. (100 users * 64) + 2000 = 8.4 GB i.e. 8GB RAM.
•More applications used (i.e. Office, CAD Apps and etc.) will require more memory per user to be added to this calculation over the 64 MB base memory per user.
[endquote]
http://blogs.technet.com/b/iftekhar/archive/2010/02/10/rds-hardware-sizing-and-capacity-planning-guidance.aspx
Doesn’t seem all those worlds apart.
Thorsten Rahn
–It’s the sensible thing to do. Windows has put its DLL hell behind it, Linux has swallowed it whole and renamed it dependency hell.–
Really it does not put DLL hell behind you fully. Both paths have a price to pay.
Bundling all the dll or .so with a program means there can be more security flaws left behind.
There is a second major downside to bundling all dlls. More ram usage due to multi copies of the same dll ending up in memory so more ram usage. Reason why installers should check if system has what they need or not.
Dependency hell comes dll reduction.
1)Not wanting to have any old libraries in the system as well. Yes this does reduce security flaws.
2) The dll reduction so resulting in lower ram usage by applications more ram for user data.
Thorsten Rahn its a conflict of wants.
LiveCD with tight memory requirements you want to solve the dependencies.
Super computer processing big data sets you want memory effectiveness. Again this leads you to the path of dependency hell and its not avoidable.
Desktop PC this system has space and resources you want as many applications as able to be able to run. Different requirement to the other markets Linux services. See problem.
Around Linux people have tried round peg into square hole. Even that Linux did have a square peg sitting there.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
There is a reason why you should find more companies doing like adobe and others do with a common directory in the program files. So that dll duplication is not going on.
So you want dll duplication and reduction at the same time.
SXS in windows is an attempt to avoid over duplication of dlls that is poorly used even today.
Visual studio lacks an out a box tool to tell you if the two libraries you have just made are ABI compatible.
DLL hell is worse than dependency hell. Even that you have dependency hell under Linux you can find the problem. Why lib.so.. Unix sane so naming convention. In fact this convention does allow many .so of different versions to be installed.[latter I will cover where distributions have gone wrong]
MSCRT.dll under windows could be anything no requirement to version on the end this comes from having short file names.
This is a weakness not covered by any troll. Linux Distribution package management is stupid in handling of .so so leading to most of the dependency hell by preventing old library packages being installed due to really minor error in design.
My program asks for libjpeg.so.7 so the loader has to find libjpeg.so.7 link file that points to libjpeg.so.7.0.0 so it can load the library.
What is the mistake. libjpeg.so.7 as a link file exists in the package. So I want to install libjpeg.so.7.0.1 and libjpeg.so.7.0.0 at the same time I cannot. Because you have at least 1 conflicting file. The link file. Those link files should not really exist in the package. Set default link of libjpeg.so.7 to 7.0.1. Set rpath on old binary to point to a directory that sets libjpeg.so.7.0.0. ABI breakage what breakage. Solaris package management is smarter this way. There are a few other minor packaging mistakes like not versioning man files.
Stable ABI is possible without requiring every application to ship with .dll or .so files. The core engine for it is designed and implemented by the kernel and loader of Linux. Problem is the package management and help file system does not implement it. But it requires distributions to alter their package management to be smarter under Linux. Including knowing the difference between security update and general fix.
Linux there is a very clean design for doing a distribution with a perfectly Stable ABI design. Would require building a complete new package management system.
ch
–my prediction is that Win8 tablets with attached keyboard will take over the notebook-surrogate market.–
A related prediction slightly different reason. Think how many notebooks you see with busted keyboards ch. Tablets with replaceable keyboards will make those evil users who like drop coffee cup or other heavy things on keyboard not do destructive damage any more.
Of course that is Android, Ipad and Win8 tablets nuke notebook market. All based on repairable.
ch wrote, “More applications used (i.e. Office, CAD Apps and etc.) will require more memory per user to be added to this calculation”.
With shared memory in GNU/Linux one copy of the app in RAM is enough so the only increase is for user-data, hardly anything for stuff like word-processing. Not long ago, M$ made an extra copy for each user. That’s beside the point. XP swapped a lot even in 512 MB with only a couple of apps running.
“The more that understand the more applications Linux will get. Greed will see to that.”
Really? do you and others like Pog intend to start paying real money for software, because its that lack of willingness to put your money where your mouth is that is going to keep your pure environment greed and commercial desktop application free.
“XP swapped a lot even in 512 MB with only a couple of apps running.”
And what apps were these?
In general office use, XP runs well in 512MB, runs *very* well with 1GB, and swapping is seldom seen with 2GB unless you are using very memory-heavy applications, such as AE, a 3D modelling/rendering app or Photoshop with giant images open.
Windows 7 runs quite nicely for general office use in 1GB.
I have to wonder what you did or did not do to these XP systems of yours to screw them up quite so badly.
And what apps were these?
He’ll never tell. I know enough small businesses in my vicinity who run/ran XP with 512 MB without any trouble at all.
Lying to oneself to keep up the illusion is compulsory for cult members. Rob is no exception. His tall tales are so way off base, you can’t even laugh about them.
oldman
–Really? do you and others like Pog intend to start paying real money for software, because its that lack of willingness to put your money where your mouth is that is going to keep your pure environment greed and commercial desktop application free.–
I have paid for loki games and other things in the past for Linux. Biggest thing is not that I will not pay is that I have been put off by poor packaging. Having to fix up a closed source application so it works and I have another that installs from the distribution that works guess what one I am more tempted to use. Normal human here.
Sorry oldman your idea that I don’t pay for Linux software is a complete lie and not true.
Ted and Thorsten Rahn. Yes good question about the Apps. I can tell you a lot of the educational games are highly stupid. Since they flag most of the binary to be sent to swap. Windows obeys and does the stupidity up to XP. Prevents the game stalling on 128 meg machines with XP installed.
Vista+ will disobey the application instruction to dump straight to swap when there is no memory pressure. XP and before is not that smart and believes the application knows what its doing(not a wise move).
Linux applications never can tell the kernel to send themselves to swap.
Roberts background I am not surprised by him talking about it.
I have paid for loki games and other things in the past for Linux. Biggest thing is not that I will not pay is that I have been put off by poor packaging. Having to fix up a closed source application so it works and I have another that installs from the distribution that works guess what one I am more tempted to use. Normal human here.
Oh wow you actually paid for something Hamster. Gee thats good to know. The problem is however that there is the little matter of the rest of the linux “market” who is used to getting something for nothing. THey more often than not have zero intention of paying for anything.
They are he ones that are going to wreck your little fantasy.
oldman wrote, “The problem is however that there is the little matter of the rest of the linux “market” who is used to getting something for nothing. THey more often than not have zero intention of paying for anything.
They are he ones that are going to wreck your little fantasy.”
You don’t seem to get the concept of sharing, oldman. It costs no one anything for a person to make a copy of FLOSS and run it except the user. He pays what it costs. It’s not freeloading or stealing or exploiting. It’s receiving what is freely shared. There’s nothing wrong with getting something for nothing if the thing is freely shared. FLOSS is a sustainable ecosystem operating at cost.
I was just reading the other day that Twitter, as just obtained a Linux silver membership for a few thousand. Are they freeloading? Nope. They give back in many ways, even a few $thousand for the $millions of IT the get from GNU/Linux. Even the twitter service that the world gets for $0. It’s all good. Just because it doesn’t fit M$’s model of greed and feed doesn’t make it any less good. In case you had not noticed there are more FLOSS programmers and projects every year and plenty of excellent contributions to mankind in the mix.
oldman wrote, “do you and others like Pog intend to start paying real money for software, because its that lack of willingness to put your money where your mouth is that is going to keep your pure environment greed and commercial desktop application free.–”
If I needed something that GNU/Linux has not for $0 I could write my own or do without. So far I have found only a few such applications, mostly related to my appetite for food and ammunition. I don’t even bother looking for commercial apps to do what I love doing. I write my own stuff. I am working on putting up my database of recipes. Once the work on the old homestead is finished and I have caught up with the weeds and the harvest, I should have it up sooner or later. It’s 100K+ recipes. I already have the database. I am writing a custom web interface. It’s not going to be very fancy but it will do what I need doing and I will share the result.
I pay in time instead of $ to the FLOSS community. I like that. I don’t care if you don’t. You are free to leave any time.
oldman
–Oh wow you actually paid for something Hamster. Gee thats good to know. The problem is however that there is the little matter of the rest of the linux “market” who is used to getting something for nothing. THey more often than not have zero intention of paying for anything.–
Steam is coming to Linux because Desura has been doing well off of Linux users. Desura does not provide any free bar the package management.
Sorry oldman there are many examples of current day Linux users spending money.
Desura would not exist if Linux users did not pay.
There are a few rules.
1) If they have to mess around making your product work no sales.
2) They want to be able to run what ever distribution they like. They don’t care truly about full distribution integration of your product but your product better run. LSB tech and loader bending is good enough.
3) Update system must be simple and dependable.(commonly forgotten) This is why Desura is doing better than loki. Also why steam will do ok on Linux.
Greed has brought Valve to Linux. It will bring others Oldman.
First hint that Linux users would pay is the integrated music stores. As time goes on more and more examples that Linux users will pay will keep on appearing.
The Linux users will not pay is a Made up Microsoft troll myth. Reality is percentage of all users on All OS’s will not spend extra money on software. That trait is not Linux unique.
Its another myth that has to die. The myth that Linux users don’t pay will die. The reality is bad packaging causes Linux users not to pay and use something else. It has to be simple to use your program compared to using something else.
If the lack of features in the free product are simpler to work around than trying to get your closed source product to work you know where the Linux users are going.
Oldman Linux users are very predictable they are fairly lazy. In fact lazier than windows users. In windows you can tell users to go to a web site and download new version. Linux users you will lose them doing that. You must have a upgrade program that does that for them. Distributions provide them with upgrade programs for everything they provide so why should your applications lack a upgrade program.
That is the big mistake just because Linux users are more technical does not mean they will put in more effort to run your program. It means they will put in less.
Oldman you have not studied the Linux User to see their traits. Like what closed source has worked and what closed source has failed with why.
Reality is your arguement about Linux users will not pay idea has no base in real world fact. Example after example of Linux users paying can be found. More interesting is per Unit the Linux users are willing to pay more than Windows. Mostly because they have not had to spend their money on lots of other software.
If I needed something that GNU/Linux has not for $0 I could write my own or do without.
Spoken like a true fanatic. Given the fact that normal Linux users are not easily prone to writing their own applications, often enough because they don’t have the ability to, your two choices are fantastic advice.
So far I have found only a few such applications, mostly related to my appetite for food and ammunition.
That’s great. Unwarranted extrapolation again. Most people are not you.
I don’t even bother looking for commercial apps to do what I love doing.
That’s your personal choice, and nothing else.
I write my own stuff.
I’m curious… where is your “stuff”? Is it packaged in Debian?
I am working on putting up my database of recipes. [...] It’s 100K+ recipes. I already have the database. I am writing a custom web interface. It’s not going to be very fancy but it will do what I need doing and I will share the result.
I pay in time instead of $ to the FLOSS community. I like that. I don’t care if you don’t. You are free to leave any time.
Oh, the big payoff! I have a tear in my eye!
Who the hell cares?
You have a very mistaken understanding of paying. There are enough geniuses like you out there, littering the net with their crappy knock-off FLOSS projects. These projects are not advancing the state of FLOSS, they’re just more of the same. They’re not needed. They’re irrelevant.
If you’re so gung-ho about “giving back”, then why don’t you join an established project? It’s not as if there are no things to do in the FLOSS world.
In my opinion, you don’t do it because your programming skills are sub-par and you’re not a team player.
You talk the talk, but you don’t walk the walk. The reality is that you’re not giving back anything to FLOSS, like most FLOSS people riding on their moral high horse.
Thorsten Rahn personal attack pointless. Since you could be doing better things then being a pest as well.
Someone has to track what is going on.
–There are enough geniuses like you out there, littering the net with their crappy knock-off FLOSS projects. These projects are not advancing the state of FLOSS, they’re just more of the same. They’re not needed. They’re irrelevant.–
Thorsten Rahn even in closed source there is the garbage pile of freeware and other given up closed source junk that are crappy knock-offs of other programs. This is a common mess of the programming world. Due to you being troll you don’t step back and see its a common mess to closed and open source. With no real known cure.
–If I needed something that GNU/Linux has not for $0 I could write my own or do without.–
That is a better comment than what you here out some windows people mouth. Windows user comment
– I will pirate it then is free anyhow.–
So both sides have there evil for you attempt to ship your product. A FOSS clone will say that they are a clone of your program so advertising you program also does not appear under the same name as your program so people know its not your work.
Problem is the software thief one with cracks and modification can make your customers believe that your program is unstable and useless bit of stuff because the crack is breaking it and they have only seen it used by people who cracked it.
So the FOSS market you have a more fair playing field. Its a interesting one the FOSS community has very little tolerance of software thiefs
Thorsten Rahn
–Given the fact that normal Linux users are not easily prone to writing their own applications, often enough because they don’t have the ability to, your two choices are fantastic advice.–
You find a lot of python written programs on Linux. A major lot. Python is basically the basic of the Linux world.
So I would say normal Linux users are more prone to writing and shipping software. That does create is own unique problem.
Scratch and others are making it even simpler for people to write own program.
Thorsten Rahn personal attack pointless. Since you could be doing better things then being a pest as well.
Personal attack? Which post have you been reading? Rob claims to give back to the community. I’m saying he isn’t. Unless you count the fabulous articles on this blog.
Thorsten Rahn even in closed source there is the garbage pile of freeware and other given up closed source junk that are crappy knock-offs of other programs. This is a common mess of the programming world.
Of course there is. But given the fact that the closed source market is many times greater than the FLOSS “market”, the junk doesn’t really matter that much. On FLOSS it does, as every programmer working on his own pet project diminishes the whole.
That is a better comment than what you here out some windows people mouth. Windows user comment
– I will pirate it then is free anyhow.–
Give me a f*kking break, will you? You’re once again claiming FLOSS people to be morally superior. You think that just because people use FLOSS they don’t pirate movies, music, games, or — God forbid! — software? I have tears in my eyes from the many pirated Photoshop CS copies or MS Office copies I’ve seen running through Wine. FLOSS pirates are exactly the kind of people who would claim that they can simply “steal” this or that software, as it is morally wrong to sell software. Yes, that’s a real-life argument you can often find to be uttered in the FLOSS world.
Due to you being troll you don’t step back and see its a common mess to closed and open source. With no real known cure.
Hamster, this is irrelevant. You made the point that commercial software will come because greed will take over. I make the point that it won’t because linux users don’t pay for software. You then go right ahead and prove my point even as you attempt to refute it.
Idiot.
Thorsten Rahn
–I have tears in my eyes from the many pirated Photoshop CS copies or MS Office copies I’ve seen running through Wine. FLOSS pirates are exactly the kind of people who would claim that they can simply “steal” this or that software, as it is morally wrong to sell software. Yes, that’s a real-life argument you can often find to be uttered in the FLOSS world.–
In fact you have not been around the wine community have you. Do you know what happens if we suspect someone has pirated something. Support is cut off.
The FOSS community itself is very anti-pirate.
Those also you are talking about fully pirate Windows before coming to Linux. They are Windows pirates first. They are not FOSS first normally. I have banned a few from the winehq channel for what you are talking about. Also they normally started on Windows doing this. Excuse to us in the wine channel we did this on Windows its fine to do it on Linux followed with you have no right to ban us for doing this.
Only to find out Wine is funded by a company that makes a closed source product so breaking license is an extremely offensive unless there is no other choice.
The correct name for those people most often is the Pirate Party and believe all information should be free its also a form Anarchism. FOSS its self is not Anarchism there is a formal style to its operations.
FOSS there is a respect for licenses. RMS never talks about breaking a license.
Mind you wine does not support running most cracks of closed source programs(only exceptions are where wine cannot be made run the copy protection yet mostly because the program detects wine and fails). Anyone found using a crack on a piece of software on wine that will legally activate in wine without it gets banned from receiving future support. There is no forgiveness ever. Its not 3 strikes you are out its 1 strike you are gone.
Thorsten Rahn in fact the funny thing is Wine developer will help people develop better copy protection to catch theifs. FOSS is really anti we will help you catch them. We hate them as much as you do.
Yes as support people we are willing to hand over ip’s with time to enforcement as well if the company request it of us. Most cases companies just deploy a bot in the wine channel and check out what the people who got banned said to see if its their product. We take no offence to this. Don’t do the crime if you don’t want todo the time.
This is the same for most other FOSS projects because if they break your license they will break ours. Yes part of Linux support contracts from SUSE and Redhat is a clause you do not break licenses of anyone’s or you void support.
So there are some very extrema outcomes if you get caught breaking license.
Thorsten Rahn
==On FLOSS it does, as every programmer working on his own pet project diminishes the whole.==
This is wrong. If a project is successful long term the people who end up working on it are paid full time somewhere in the FOSS world.
Each pet project is basically an experiment looking for the right ideas to solve the problems. Ideas have to be tested somewhere.
No new ideas no new features Thorsten Rahn. The junk pile is a require part of the process.
Mr. Pogson,
I agree with a lot of the ideas you have written about, but the idea of paying other developers in code probably doesn’t work.
A code submission may help the project move faster, but it wont pay the lead developer’s rent or feed his kid…
There is a Libre audio editor called Ardour which solves this by saying that all donation money goes direcly to supporting the project developer, as opposed to, say, hiring other full time programmers to flesh out the system. The article I read on this project seems to indicate that a core of users who regularly use the code voluntarily pay a monthly fee to this developer to see that the project continues. Regular community support like that can work, but from what I have seen it seems rare. Now, I am a student, so any time I spend helping people with GNU\Linux is essentially free, but I dread the day I will have to earn a wage, as the idea of writing proprietary code as a business plan turns my stomach.
ssorbom wrote, “I am a student, so any time I spend helping people with GNU\Linux is essentially free, but I dread the day I will have to earn a wage, as the idea of writing proprietary code as a business plan turns my stomach.”
Even if you are only paid by having FLOSS subsidize/assist your education, whatever you produce for FLOSS will be a good return on investment. There are so many millions of FLOSS developers that the throughput of just the students is amazing. For big projects, there should be a lead developer however, and it helps if he has a paying job. Many relevant projects are paid this way by employers valuing the daily production of programmer X by allowing him some hours to code FLOSS or to do research or whatever. It’s a diverse economy, FLOSS.
One of the advantages of teaching for me was that I could enjoy the science/maths/computers while teaching children. I was providing a valuable service to society while society provided me with the toys I needed to stay alive. I used to say when I was 5x years old that I was still 5 … decades old… Unlike other teachers who taught the same thing the same day for the last decade, I made a new plan every day. That way I never felt it was monotonous. Perhaps you could be a teacher or run your own business and hire people to do those tasks.
ssorbom you will find major companies like IBM and so on do employ developers to work on FOSS.
The Linux Foundation exists to assist developer to company join ups as well.
Since you are a student don’t miss out on taking part in the google summer of code. Yes you do get paid for doing that. Can lead to full-time employment as a FOSS developer. The payment is both ways. The person mentoring you gets paid and you as the student gets paid. Not much but its money.
ssorbom there is a downside you most likely will have to be working on other peoples problems as your day job. Not your own.
ssorbom projects that do well long term are like Blender who runs a store and profits from it as well as donations. Or are company funded.
To get a decent wage does not require writing closed source software.
If your language is good you can make money writing books and user guides.
Lead developers of most projects that are successful a full-time job somewhere with someone who is using it.
ssorbom the summer of code one is critical it proves you can set and meet dead lines with real world distractions and issues.
Mr. Pogson and Oiaohm:
Thank you, your suggestions are very helpful. I should clarify that my coding skills are still very rudimentary. I am interested in Google summer of code, but I need to learn more (at least up to pointers and classes, which I will be studying this semester in a C++ class). Most of my community service so far has been helping out absolute newbies and packaging some apps for a niche distro that I like.
Most of my experience is in BASH and a little C++. I think the first language I saw though was QBasic. I am looking forward to *real* coding after I nail some more C++. Programming looks like an exciting frontier!
Why am I a freetard?
http://martinsandsmark.wordpress.com/2012/09/19/why-am-i-a-freetard/
The Linux Desktop: Not Dead, Just Broken
http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/The-Linux-Desktop-Not-Dead-Just-Broken-76199.html
eug, there is no single GNU/Linux desktop. There are hundreds of varieties and millions of instances. While some features may be faulty and most distros are blocked from retail shelves, GNU/Linux in all its forms thrives.
Linux: The big misconceptions
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/linux-the-big-misconceptions/3853