This is what IDC is telling governments about managing the costs of IT.
“
“
see IDC Government Insights Launches IT Assessment Framework to Evaluate Cost Optimization in the Public Sector – prIT23643412.
I would go much further:
- Reducing IT waste is the easy one. Do away with all unnecessary applications for one thing. Munich found 15% of its applications were unnecessary in that the task did not need to be done or other applications could do the task.
- Munich found only 10% of its applications needed to be run on that other OS on client PCs.
- 30% of Munich’s applications could run natively on GNU/Linux and 25% could run as web applications.
- Do the maths. What would you save by eliminating 90% of your headaches in IT?
I recommend governments use Debian GNU/Linux as the default platform for clients and servers and use that other OS only for narrowly defined special uses.
I disagree with IDC on only one thing in their article. One can cut spending on IT by 50% or more and get improved performance by switching to thin clients and terminal servers for the default client. 80-90% of clients in most organizations can be thin. That’s one thing Munich got wrong too, but they had a lot of political headwind just swapping client OS…
17494
12779
206
3
2
23945 
11873 
11725 
4644 
4274 
1641 
198 
14 
2 
0 
0 
0 
What would you save by eliminating 90% of your headaches in IT?
Right off the top of my head I would say that you could eliminate 90% of your IT staff, Mr. Pogson. How appealing do you think that thought might be to the IT staff tasked with evaluating the proposal?
Sawing off the tree limb you are standing or sitting on is a sort of joke that most people see the lesson within. Ditto the expectation that IT managers are going to go for some extremes in streamlining.
I might note, too, that the Munich project was claiming long term savings on licenses at the cost of additional IT staff in the changeover and follow on processes. That is a much more sellable concept for an open source advocate to press on.
You have to look on the practical side here.
Everybody can tell their own story between Windows/proprietary software versus Linux/FLOSS. During the first 12 years with Windows ecosystems i have to invest thousands of €’s but after moving to Linux and FLOSS i haven’t invest a single cent.
There are hardly much difference between IT budget of Munich and my own. Moving to Linux/FLOSS means saving lots of money. And you can enjoy using free, safe, stable and secure computer software. As i’ve mentioned before at least 90% of people should move to Linux/FLOSS immediately.
Clarence Moon I guess you don’t read German so I will give you english.
http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/public-sector/3348475/munich-mayor-says-switch-to-linux-is-much-cheaper-and-has-reduced-complaints/
Yes the cost saving have started turning up in 2012.
Thing is the conversion has cost them no more than if they had stayed Windows with same number of machines but in the time frame they had expanded number of machine. Next upgrade cycle they will save again. Munich has proven the long term cost saving are there and they are getting it.
Clarence Moon “cost of additional IT staff in the changeover and follow on processes.”
Interesting point Munich is using less support staff now than when they were running windows even that now they have more machines. Munich in fact did not put on any extra stuff. Munich has commissioned outside to make some software for them.
Clarence Moon reality the numbers don’t lie. Munich was correct the cost saving were there. Ok cost saving between 15-30 percent. Not as much as some were hoping for. The cost saving is still real.
Interesting point a company starting today would have less cost converting there documentation archive. Reason Libreoffice is lot more supporting than the OpenOffice Munich did theirs with.
If you think the Munich example is wrong you can go across to the french goverment 500.000 desktops running LibreOffice there mostly Windows but it has proven to be a cost saving as well.
Be truthful not all staff need full MS Office todo their job.
Clarence Moon cost saving is real about time you accept it. As the commercial developers do more work on Libreoffice the cost of migration will keep on reducing.
The french goverment proves including Libreoffice is a cost saving. As yet Libreoffice still does not have native to alfresco(sharepoint clone) and other CRM’s. The effectiveness will increase.
The area has been explored its not a unknown.
Yes the reality is a percentage of the money you save on license payments to Microsoft will have to be spend breaking your vendor lockin and paying developers to add features to software you wish to use. Even so there is still saving.
Also the thing that is known now is once the migrations to Linux are complete they don’t reverse. Microsoft has to get in early before the migrations complete or lose that market forever.
Just migrated an office from Sharepoint/Exchange/Office to WordPress-Mediawiki/Zimbra/SugarCRM and Libreoffice.
All told they saved about ~$100K USD and best of all, I got to use the existing hardware. The bean counters were not happy with the upgrade costs and decided to see what else was available, fair enough.
Additionally, they are seriously looking at dumping XP and going with a 64-bit Ubuntu terminal server using thin clients.
I even demo’d an Android phone and tablet, which would supplant the existing POTS, desktop computer and/or laptop all in one swoop.
dougman wrote, “All told they saved about ~$100K USD and best of all, I got to use the existing hardware.”
Amen. That’s the kind of savings I have seen all over. It pays to use FLOSS. Bean counters everywhere should share notes. Of course, there are a dozen other reasons to use FLOSS, all of them sufficient in themselves to justify the effort.
While it wasn’t one of my biggest roll-outs, the greatest price/performance advantage I ever achieved was taking a stack of Lose ’9x machines that had been yanked from a lab and replaced with new XP machines and putting them to work as thin clients of the first version of my Beast. We got superior performance out of the old crates in the classrooms to such an extent that the high school did not need to use the lab any longer. It was also one of the most effective years in my teaching career because the whole student body got down to work very hard after Christmas and GNU/Linux was a part of that. GNU/Linux can literally out-perform state-of-the-art Wintel on its waste materials…
MediaWiki
LOL.
Zimbra
As I have mentioned in another comment, the pricing of Zimbra saves you practically not a dime on the equivalent licensing plan for Exchange.
In order to save any money, the only way to go about it is to ignore the equivancy in the picture and pretend that a one-year subscription per mailbox without support is somehow the same as a CAL for Exchange Server.
The numbers you have are at best dubious, to say the least.
SugarCRM
http://www.sugarcrm.com/page/editions-pricing/en
Again, however you came up with “~100K USD” saving, it must be some very interesting mathematical process you have employed there.
Either that, or you just don’t know much about MS software licensing plans.
(Cue Pogson’s “but, but no one understand them” in 3… 2… 1…)
The bean counters were not happy with the upgrade costs and decided to see what else was available, fair enough.
The “bean counters” obviously notice the your magical ~100k USD saving simply doesn’t exist in reality. A small company with a lack of expertise in IT management might fall for that, but I doubt in any other situation a cautious person would not send your plan to someone who knows the stuff for a second look.
At least, I wouldn’t entrust anything IT to someone who believes in registry “cleaners”. That’s my bottom line.
Just migrated an office from Sharepoint/Exchange/Office to WordPress-Mediawiki/Zimbra/SugarCRM and Libreoffice.
All told they saved about ~$100K
Oh, that’s nothing! I just totally replaced SharePoint with nothing but a matchbox and a paperclip, so the Client saved $200k+ !!!!!!
That’s the nice thing about the Internet: Everybody can claim whatever he wants
ch wrote:
“That’s the nice thing about the Internet: Everybody can claim whatever he wants”
I claim that NASA just landed a new car-sized rover on Mars. Link? No. Get it yourself.
I claim that NASA just landed a new car-sized rover on Mars. Link? No. Get it yourself.
That’s not hard at all:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/index.html
I am not sure about the one for the fabled ~100k USD saving, though.
Just so you know and as you may not be aware, Wikipedia runs mediawiki. It is not a laughing matter, people were howling about it being blacked out for the SOPA protest. However, Wikipedia should not be used for other then general research.
Mediawiki is easy for first time users to learn it’s syntax if you want to do it directly, or you can work with existing documents or create new ones in LibreOffice and export directly to mediawiki markup language.
Sharepoint likes to obfuscate and make things difficult to find things. Shared documents are linked on the wiki and stored on a NAS and populated via NFS shared drives. The business user browses the wiki, click the link and BAM there is the document, no need for substatial training.
Regarding Zimbra and Exchange pricing, that maybe true, however I deployed the open source edition. You can find it here: http://www.zimbra.com/downloads/os-downloads.html
Same with SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/thank-you-downloading-sugarcrm-community-edition?utm_source=CEdownload&utm_medium=regform&utm_campaign=skiplink
Regarding the $100K in savings, this was conveyed to me after the award of the PO by the CFO. I came in way under that, it kinda stings that I left that much money on the table, but either way both parties came out happy, I know I am.
Yes, I do make money from Windows users, so does M$ what was your point? Bear in mind, that I am not a charity. However I have been known to give away older computers setup with Linux to those less fortunate as I get tired of all the excess IT infrastructure lying around and I rather see it used instead of being tossed into the landfill.
Bear in mind, if my customers are not happy, then I neither am I. My website states that I offer a ninety-day money back guarantee on all work, to DATE no one has taken me up on that.
Just so you know and as you may not be aware
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…
Lemme catch my breath for a bit.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA…
I “may not be aware”? Sure, because obviously you are on the cutting edge of things and treading on a territory no one has treaded before. You are Christopher Colombus of IT solutions, and only you and you alone know the majestic secret that Wikipedia is based on MediaWiki.
Jokes aside, are you seriously suggesting MediaWiki as an alternative to Sharepoint? Look, as ch says, a matchbox and a paperclip can be an alternative just as well. In fact, what’s more “elegant” than matchboxes and paperclips? Just throw away everything and stick to the basics and you will save a bajillion dollars in no time.
The business user browses the wiki, click the link and BAM there is the document, no need for substatial training.
And no integration with whatever you edit your document with. Of course, a problem only exists when Colombus of IT have thought about it.
Regarding Zimbra and Exchange pricing, that maybe true, however I deployed the open source edition. You can find it here
Oh, why, thanks for the link, Colombus of IT!
Like I haven’t known that already.
Anyway, who needs things like:
- Real-time backup and restore
- Clustering/High-Availability
- Domain Administration & Role-based Delegate
- Email Archiving & Discovery
You know, everything essential to making the infrastructure reliable and scalable?
Whoever not throwing out your proposal at once is an abject moron.
Regarding the $100K in savings, this was conveyed to me after the award of the PO by the CFO.
Let’s revisit what you said in your previous post.
The bean counters were not happy with the upgrade costs and decided to see what else was available, fair enough.
Your client backtracked and had a second thought. I wonder why.
Mr Dougmann,
“Mediawiki is easy for first time users to learn it’s Syntax”
There is exactly one bit of Syntax necessary to learn for SharePoint wikis. Would you happen to know which one?
“Sharepoint likes to obfuscate and make things difficult to find things.”
Care to elaborate?
“Shared documents are linked on the wiki and stored on a NAS”
Yeah, that’s what you can do on SharePoint, too. But document libraries are just so much more powerful (e.g. they offer versioning) that you rarely want to do without them.
“and populated via NFS shared drives.”
Why would I want ro use NFS in a Windows environment?
“The business user browses the wiki, click the link and BAM there is the document, no need for substatial training.”
You mean just like with SharePoint? Wow.
BTW, how did you move the existing content from SP to MW?
How many users were there? How long did the project take you?
What versions of SP, EX and MSO did they use before?
Which e-mail client did you install?
How did you make it Single-Sign-On?
Please enlighten us!
ch to the mediawiki sytnax one
http://www.libreoffice.org/features/extensions/
Can you operate Libreoffice if so you have a what you see is what you get editor for mediawiki. Wiki Publisher extension is something that you don’t have for MS Office. So offices without Libreoffice or OpenOffice with the extention deploying Mediawiki is painful.
Dougman does mention this ch. End users don’t need to learn mediawiki syntax if they can operate libreoffice they can edit it.
Mediawiki support MS Active directory based single sign on also supports OAuth and other single sign on solutions. So the single sign on bit is dead simple.
In fact his complete list WordPress, Mediawiki, Zimbra and SugarCRM supports both Active Directory and OAuth single sign on. Single sign on is quite simple todo really since most FOSS stuff support active directory single sign on and OAuth. Pick one and go for it basically. If warped pick both and go for it.
ch nfs is intresting since it might be version or it might not be depend on the filesystem its displaying to the network.
ch
“Why would I want ro use NFS in a Windows environment?”
Depends what form of samba server you are running. http://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Clustered_Samba
Samba clustered providing SMB to Windows NFS is an option between the Samba servers. Personally I would go for a more high end cluster file system to pick up alteration versioning but hey each to there own.
“semantic mediawiki” extension expands mediawiki a lot past stock.
alfresco is normally what I put up to sharepoint. To go from sharepoint to mediawiki going into alfresco first is normally nicer. To be correct you can go straight from sharepoint to mediawiki but its putting an extension in sharepoint and hope it don’t crash it. So making it shredpoint instead of sharepoint.
Brillo
–Real-time backup and restore
Clustering/High-Availability
Domain Administration & Role-based Delegate
Email Archiving & Discovery–
The clustering and high-availability is why I would love to be able to go citadel. Lack of outlook mapi support kinda stops me at this stage.
Exchange in High-Availability mode is a nightmare. You end up with it behind postfix most for malware scanning and other things.
Email client you can rule out Outlook due to community not supporting that so you can almost bet on Windows machine thunderbird or using the web interface that looks a lot like outlook.
Solution would have been workable. I would not call the email setup he choose ideal there are others FOSS more suitable. Mediawiki for sharepoint can be a valid swap if the users usage suites Mediawiki more.
Looking for something FOSS that scales.
http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/mediawiki/index.php/Cyrus_Murder_Design
Citadel and Cyrus are your two major email storages that are fully FOSS that scale. If you out grow them you are in real trouble.
Kolab, Sogo, egroupware and others in the FOSS world sit on Cyrus even sugercrm can be placed on cyrus directly.
Zimbra is its own engine so I don’t particularly trust it if I cannot afford to pay for it so the scaling features are gone.
Really most of the issue is not FOSS lacking the means todo most of it. There are small vendor lockin issues that niggle you. Like hey my outlook did not set up automatically as it did with exchange. This niggle goes by by with openchange and samba 4.
Mr O,
there was actually a reason why I specifically asked Mr D those questions, but never mind.
“Can you operate Libreoffice if so you have a what you see is what you get editor for mediawiki.”
Well, in SP you have the WYSIWYG Editor right within the page you want to edit – I find that much more straightforward.
“ch nfs is intresting since it might be version or it might not be depend on the filesystem its displaying to the network.”
There is a difference between FS-based versioning and what CMSs like SP offer.
“Samba clustered providing SMB to Windows NFS”
What are you talking about?
“To go from sharepoint to mediawiki going into alfresco first is normally nicer.”
Wow, just as I thought Mr D might match your silliness you easily top him.
Brillo cannot handle reality and revises his inputs when he wrote, “Let’s revisit what you said in your previous post.
The bean counters were not happy with the upgrade costs and decided to see what else was available, fair enough.
Your client backtracked and had a second thought. I wonder why.”
Don’t be silly and replace clear statements of fact with innuendo. What was written is very close to my experience. An employer was quoted $100K for a “clients-only” upgrade. For the same money using FLOSS, I gave them clients, servers, a gigabit/s rack, 20 printers, backup system, cameras and scanners. GNU/Linux does cost less than that other OS and there’s a reason for that, M$’s greed.
I am not sure about the one for the fabled ~100k USD saving, though
Oh, quite being so disbelieving! It is a great anectdote, just in time for this blog, and certainly well within Doughman’s (is that his real name?) skill set, evidenced by his chic and inspiring web site.
20 printers
Heh, 20 printers…
On the NFS one read link http://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Clustered_Samba
When you cluster Samba file servers. You use NFS at times to your storage backend. Even that the other side of the samba server is SMB windows knows. Then you see NFS is not such a bad idea. Ok same setup I most likely would be looking at GlusterFS since its more fault tolerant.
ch mediawiki is lighter on remote server resources if I was cloud placing stuff. Of course turning the site static would also be considered.
ch
“Well, in SP you have the WYSIWYG Editor right within the page you want to edit – I find that much more straightforward.”
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:FCKeditor_%28Official%29 There are non beta ones of this for mediawiki out there.
Its not impossible with mediawiki to have a WYSIMYG editor.
There are other options as well.
http://gwennel.com/gwennel-web/
Putting a WYSIWYG Editor on mediawiki itself normally undermines my prime reason for using it over alfresco or liferay or many of the others that include a WYSIMYG out box. I want something light that will not stress the server that gets the job done.
By going light you can get away with a wall wart server in some cases. This also reduces power usage of server. But with all going light there is a price to pay. No such thing as a free lunch basically. This is a question of how much does the business need.
ch
“There is a difference between FS-based versioning and what CMSs like SP offer.”
Really they are not that difference between FS-based versioning and what CMS do its just complexity of versioning in the form of FS versioning you might be looking at might not be the same level. Mostly you never had the Linux options of using CMS’s as file systems.
http://wiki.alfresco.com/wiki/File_Server_Configuration
As alfresco can be a NFS, FTP, CIFS, and WebDAV all from the same server pretending to be sharepoint. CMS are up there for most complex FS-based versioning. So the file based versioning here is identical with alfresco to sharepoint.
Alfresco is not the only CMS that can be a NFS or SMB server.
Just to be worse warped is any CMS that supports WebDAV can have that mounted as a file system under Linux using davfs2 and other mount options for WebDAV then that exposed to the network by Samba, FTP and NFS servers.
Basically its how complex of a file system you are talking about most people don’t think of WebDAV as a filesystem to Linux its a file system you can use.
ch when you enter Linux most things can be a file-system question how many mounts to achieve it. More mounts more overhead. If its simpler for a user to place there content in the CMS using a normal file share that is what you set up for them.
So almost all CMS can be access by NFS inside 2 mounts using Linux. One mounting the NFS 1 mounting the WebDav or equal to access the CMS.
Some like alfresco avoid this problem by shipping with own NFS CIFS and so on servers.
Also mediawiki does not have to have a store in NFS normal either. It can use Swift from openstack. That is clustering storage. Swift is kinda I am huge scale. But to access Swift as a filesystem you have to place GlusterFS in to pretend to be Swift. Main reason swift don’t bother with posix information. So again use mediawiki using its swift interface drop NFS from the storage side use GlusterFS. Then from Linux boxes expose that GlusterFS as CIFS, NFS and FTP to upload into it directly. High data loss prevent and lots of different access paths.
When you are on Linux the limits are normally not what people think they are. Using standard NFS for storage is very old school when you have proper cluster file systems to use.
ch lets just say I am use to being able to use what every method I personally like to send data to a CMS this can be particularly useful for sending odd ball things in there.
Brillo
Heh, 20 printers…
One world should answer that one. “School”.
Schools normally do have higher printer numbers than lots of businesses normally 1 per class room is useful.
Brillo wrote, “Heh, 20 printers…”
That’s about 19 more printers than the school had before and they were good Xerox colour wax and HP black and white laser printers, fast and reliable. What use were 153 client PCs with no ability to print? In that school, high-volume classrooms had their own printer and every part of the school had a fast colour printer a few steps away. All of that was thanks to $0 licences for FLOSS.
What use were 153 client PCs with no ability to print?
I have seen 4 printers serving a much, much higher amount of users than that, but since I am done for today with reading FOSS blowhards talking about their Scotch-tape-and-spit solutions, I’ll just let someone else explain in details why this is a waste of resources on maintanence and expendibles.
oiaohm wrote, “Schools normally do have higher printer numbers than lots of businesses normally 1 per class room is useful.”
Amen. Schools often have a linear layout so the walking time from any particular classroom to any point in the school could be minutes. Classrooms also usually do not have one PC per student so a paper copy is very useful. Teachers also have to be responsible for children so it is unacceptable to have students roaming the halls fetching printouts.
Brillo “I have seen 4 printers serving a much, much higher amount of users than that”
You did not read the word did you. “School”
School printers are normally good second hand because they have been under used. Its all about the fact you cannot have children walking down hallways in class time.
Brillo basically Schools is a magic rule where you throw all your conventional business knowledge on how many printers are required and use a different metric completely. Its more about the least number of travel combined with teachers means to supervise what even is printed. Result is normally 1 printer per class room and some exceptional cases 2 printers per class room. That room might only have 5 machines but because its a school it gets a printer so the teacher can supervise them and check what they are printing. It also allows instant teacher response to student doing something wrong. Where in a business you would have them be picked up from a central printer.
Brillo
“I’ll just let someone else explain in details why this is a waste of resources on maintanence and expendibles.”
Little catch here. Take a case two kids from different classes going to get something that was printed and they beat each other up. Price of printers maintenance, expendables and so on is nothing compare to the case of being sued for lack of supervision.
If a business did this you are right Brillo. School is one case where forget your normal business logic it don’t work. Another where normal business logic in places go out window is hospitals.
Brillo once the kids are in UNI out of primary and high school you then can apply business logic again.
Schools supervision trumps all even forcing excess hardware usage.
Now if teacher need a extra copy without a printer in the class room or a teacher aid(that lots of schools don’t have any more due to cost cutting) It would have to wait until the teacher themselves could go get. This is not productive for learning.
Brillo also think cost of teacher aid to deliver print jobs vs placing printer in each room these days what one is cheaper. Yes when printers were a lot more expensive you would have a teacher aid doing the print job run. Just always remember you are not allowed to use students without supervision. So any movement must be done by staff. Staff cost.
Brillo 4 printers plus + 1 staff to deliver the print jobs is way more expensive than 20 printers.
Remember teacher cannot leave there room while students are in it unless they are very sure students will behave even then they can land in legal hot water.
Maybe you missed where Robert Pogson said he was a school network person Brillo.
Brillo factoring that what ever was printed would have to be delivered did not cross your mind.
Thing is the conversion has cost them no more than if they had stayed Windows with same number of machines but in the time frame they had expanded number of machine. Next upgrade cycle they will save again. Munich has proven the long term cost saving are there and they are getting it.
Ohio Ham is spouting big words again.
The Mayor of Munich says: Linux saves us money. You don’t say!? I somehow doubt that he’d say that Linux is not cheaper than a Microsoft-based solution. And that’s the problem. Independent verification is not possible, as Limux doesn’t publish hard numbers.
The only fact you can take away from the myriad of fabricated Limux success stories is that Munich’s mess of an IT structure before Limux had nothing to do with Microsoft at all. And they hide this fact well in all their documents. For the public it appears to be an issue of Linux vs. Windows, but it’s really for the most part about faulty IT planning which had nothing to do with the OS.
Chris Weig wrote:
“Ohio Ham is spouting big words again.”
Gee Chris, that’s the fourth time you’ve used that nick name (Ohio Ham) since you’ve been posting here. As a matter of fact, yes, fact, you’re the only one who has used that nick name in the time that you’ve been posting here. Where did you get if from, a previous life?
Chris Weig the french police(France’s Gendarmerie Nationale) do publish there numbers along with others. All the same result.
Interesting thing French Police got there saving sooner. Due to a more structured and formal control document system.
Munich is basically the worst case. French Police is basically the best case. The French Police saw there first savings in 6 months and have been getting saving ever since.
That french police deployment 85,000 desktops fully Linux. So serous-ally Munich is small at 15,000 desktops. MS trolls don’t raise items like the French Police Deloyment because it does not prove what they want. It proves Linux can work.
Munich does publish yearly balance sheets covering all expenditure. So you can see exactly how much was spend maintaining their Linux system and doing the Migration. So its a matter of public record Chris Weig. Public record displays that the early years were expensive. The time of MS Office to OpenOffice migration was the costly bit. The costs of Windows to Linux desktop migrations drop off massively. So now the cost has been recovered.
Long term Munich is correct there are cost savings. Munich does server as a warning. The most expensive thing you are going to hit is your document archives.
Chris Weig
“And that’s the problem. Independent verification is not possible, as Limux doesn’t publish hard numbers.”
Now this is because you have not tried to Independent verification. Hard numbers are on the public record. Since the Munich council is required to publish their expenditure every year for everything or be in legal hot water.
I told trolls not to go over board with Munich it could come back to bite them because there is a full record of costs on the public record. That had to be published by law and if its incorrect someone goes to jail.
You are the one Hamming it up here Chris Weig.
If the The Mayor of Munich is lieing prove it reported numbers Chris Weig. You will find the public release of council expenditure perfectly agrees with what the Mayor said.
Limux does not need to publish independent hard numbers. Since any cost reduction caused by it has to appear in the general Munich balance sheets. Basically its only that you are a financial idiot that you think you need Limux numbers to prove anything instead of just looking at the Munich over all balance sheets.
Schools often have a linear layout so the walking time from any particular classroom to any point in the school could be minutes.
“Minutes” are the time I use to walk to the next suburb. Did you say the school has a linear layout? That must be one very, very LONG school. (Strange adjective for a building, isn’t it?)
Of course, failure to plan the deployment properly could also be the culprit, but who am I to judge?
Brillo Classroom of brats you give them minutes what do you think the classroom will look like by the time you get back.
It is surprising how much damage students can do to a classroom in 60 seconds. 30 seconds the room can be a disaster zone.
20 people in a room and stuff goes wrong mess is huge and quick same can be the amount of harm done to them. This is why supervision in schools is so serous. When they talk about mins in schools they are talking single digit. 1-9 mins max to cross the school ground. But each 1 min the size of disaster you could be coming back to increases.
There is a good Garfield cartoon that displaces it quite well. Leaves the room for 60 seconds and the place is completely wrecked.
The shortest time I have seen for major injury in a class room 15 seconds form when the teacher left. Teacher just got out door as one student hit another one with a chair braking bones quite serous harm. Teachers don’t have time to walk anywhere other than around that class room when they are supervising a class.
Linear layout is normally to keep students of the same size near each other. Again reduced damage you don’t want a really big student attacking a small one. Due to that Linear layout and what you are trying to prevent by it you don’t have students walking into random areas.
Brillo yes there is a lot of logistics to a school about student harm reduction. Including setting up playgrounds and the like for particular grades. Supervision requirements. This makes a school way different to most business.
Brillo you can get to the next suburb in under 10 mins must be a small suburb or you are right on the edge of one.
Gee Chris, that’s the fourth time you’ve used that nick name (Ohio Ham) since you’ve been posting here. As a matter of fact, yes, fact, you’re the only one who has used that nick name in the time that you’ve been posting here. Where did you get if from, a previous life?
No, it originated on Linux Hater’s Blog. And it fits Mr. Dolding perfectly.
Your name reminds me of puke, kozmcrae.
Chris Weig in fact no. Ohio Ham is a different person who use to post on Linux Hater’s Blog.
So it does not suit me at all. Since you are from Linux Hater’s Blog you should have known the other user and not used the incorrect name.
Chris Weig wrote:
“Your name reminds me of puke, kozmcrae.”
Even better!
oiaohm wrote:
“Blog you should have known the other user and not used the incorrect name.”
That’s right. He’s just a reincarnation of a previous visitor to this blog whose nym got worn out. He forgot that he wasn’t supposed to know that you were sometimes called “Ohio Ham”. Since Chris Weig has been posting on this blog, he’s the only one to call you that.
He’s been here before under another nym. I suspect there are really just a handful of them and they keep renewing themselves. That’s why the discussions on this blog are so monotonous. They are the same ones day in and day out. That’s because it’s been the same people, for the most part, for a couple of years now.
“He’s been here before under another nym. I suspect there are really just a handful of them and they keep renewing themselves. That’s why the discussions on this blog are so monotonous. They are the same ones day in and day out. That’s because it’s been the same people, for the most part, for a couple of years now.”
Not me, I’ve been been the oldman and been debating Pog since desktoplinux.com was a real site.
The sameness of arguments cuts both ways Mr. K. Robert Pogson is still posting the same half truths and verbalized ignorance about Microsoft and its products over and over again. We simply remind him (yet again) of the parts of the facts that he neglects to cover.
And interestingly enough, Pog chooses not to ban us, or even noisemakers like you for that matter even though you have indicated that you would care if he did!
As Pog says, Its all good.
Have a nice day!
oldman wrote, “Robert Pogson is still posting the same half truths and verbalized ignorance about Microsoft and its products over and over again. We simply remind him (yet again) of the parts of the facts that he neglects to cover.”
oldman is still choosing to ignore the unnecessary complexity and costs of the Wintel monopoly.
oldman is still choosing to ignore the unnecessary complexity and costs of the Wintel monopoly.
It’s increasingly apparent that you have little knowledge as to what happened between 1995-2000. You know, when Linux was on retail shelves and everyone was hyping about it until the dot com bubble culminated to a spectacular implosion? You are the shadow of a distant past, RP. Almost everything you say here is what half of us here have heard about from ~15 years ago. “Wintel”? “Desktop monopoly”? C’mon, if you want people to join your cause, as least try not to recycle the same old excuses from a decade ago by your forerunners. That’s lame.
No, actually, keep recycling the same old excuses. Keep blaming someone who has left MS for over 10 years to sell MIDI keyboards for Linux continuing not catching on on the desktop. Keep chanting the same ol’ “Wintel” rhetoric like it means anything in a modern-day context. Keep telling the same backyard handyman stories that lay bare your lack of knowledge and skills. Dark comedy is good comedy.
For the Linux fanboys, it’s still 1995 and nothing has changed in Redmond, only Linux has improved. Well, here’s something else from 1995 – err, 1996, to be precise:
http://penguinday.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/blast-from-the-past/
So Mr Pogson, Mr O and first and foremost Mr K are doing their level best to drive sane people away from Linux – that’s the way to success!
That’s right. He’s just a reincarnation of a previous visitor to this blog whose nym got worn out. He forgot that he wasn’t supposed to know that you were sometimes called “Ohio Ham”. Since Chris Weig has been posting on this blog, he’s the only one to call you that.
The wonderful paranoia of kozmcrae. There’s a video for that:
Coupling 2×01 – The Man With Two Legs (Jump to 6:28 if it doesn’t happen automatically.)
“It’s never the same man twice.”
Do remember it, kozmcrae.
Brillo even in the dot com bubble the Linux focus was majority server not desktop.
“C’mon, if you want people to join your cause, as least try not to recycle the same old excuses from a decade ago by your forerunners.”
Time has moved on a lot. There were no major business or government deployments of Linux desktops 1990-2000 time frame. 2000-2010 you see the start of Linux Desktop deployments even OEM support. You also start seeing the particular project hindering progress. OpenOffice from sun was hindering. Qt not able free on Windows platforms also hindered.
1990-2000 a lot of server OS’s were acquired on disc. So retail. 2000-2010 you see a lot of server OS’s changed to download. This is not just a Linux thing. Even windows server by volume you can choose if you buy the disc or download it. Think about it do you see in most shops windows 2008 server boxes on shelf? No you don’t. You use to see NT server box set pre 2000. Its not just the Linux boxed sets that have disappeared.
Brillo the lock-in walls are coming down piece by piece at the moment.
Brillo we know how Microsoft got there platform.
Problem is hindrance and vendor lockin issues take time to defeat. Libreoffice should not take that long to close lots of the gaps. Qt open up will also see the kde office suite on windows with other parts.
The 2010 time frame on is different. Lot of things are acting different. Munich project will reach what is classed as a successful cost reduction and 80 percent conversion. It is not alone at doing this. The arguement that Linux is untested on the business desktop is dead.
If you want to argue its not read of the home desktop go ahead but the question is how long that market will remain.
Big thing Brillo and Oldman are making the mistake by presuming LibreOffice and OpenOffice will proceed the same. The reality is LibreOffice is completely new management. LibreOffice has added more features than OpenOffice added in the 10 years of its existence already. We are talking just over 12 months of existence to do 10+ years worth of progress. There is no sign at this stage that this progress will slow for Libreoffice any time in the near future.
Now if OpenOffice had progressed forwards at the same speed you would not be using MS Office today. MS Office would be feature behind.
Really in a lot of ways it would have been better if OpenOffice had not been released at all since it just caused hindrance. Focus then would have gone into koffice and we would be looking at it being quite a decent product.
X11 that was hindrance by video card makers that Linux is almost past that problem.
Reality Linux and FOSS has had a hard road. Few minor things go wrong had bad effects.
Now if OpenOffice had progressed forwards at the same speed you would not be using MS Office today. MS Office would be feature behind.
Yeah. Sure. Right. You do know that before OpenOffice there was StarOffice, and that it was a commercial product, and that it was quite successful in certain markets. But then Stardivision became desperate and gave away StarOffice for free. Then they became even more desperate and committed suicide by selling themselves to Sun. All that because of their “vision” to dethrone Microsoft. And today? Nothing has really changed. Microsoft Office is still the big office package for which people pay. And there are others, like SoftMaker or Papyrus, who have found a niche and are happy with it. And then there’s LibreOffice, still trying to catch up.
ch wrote, ” doing their level best to drive sane people away from Linux – that’s the way to success!”
Evil people always assume others are evil. They keep looking in mirrors.
I have introduced thousands of sane people to GNU/Linux and they were happy that their same old computers leapt into life compared to the burden of that other OS and malware. My favourite memory: “It’s so slow!”, quote of a young lady who had just unboxed a brand new AMD64 dual-core, 3gB PC running that other OS. In 10 minutes she had installed a Debian GNU/Linux image on it and it flew as it should. That’s nothing about evil. It’s about enlightenment.
“It’s about enlightenment.”
If you were interested in enlightenment, you might as well have de-installed whatever democrap (my hunch: some virus scanner who’s name starts with “N”) came pre-installed in less than 10 minutes. But of course, you are more interested in proselytizing.
My favourite memory: “It’s so slow!”, quote of a young lady who had just unboxed a brand new AMD64 dual-core, 3gB PC running that other OS.
And this proves what exactly? Can you please describe this “slowness”? I find it a bit hard to believe, as I’ve never seen a PC which was rendered “so slow” by pre-installed crapware. It may lengthen the time until everything’s loaded but that’s about it.
And you could have simply deactivated the crapware. Instead you chose the easy way out: FUD. “Oh, young lady, Windows is ‘so slow’, I recommend Debian GNU/Linux! It’s the right way to do IT!”
There goes your “objectivity”.