“Ditto for these companies promoting Android devices. It may be true that they have a few in stock, but they do not seem to be making any sort of splash.”

What did the Android phones replace for MS major OEM people. Windows Phone 7. They have never sold a lot of phones. But they have always had Windows phones to match up with the Windows OS until recently. Its called the upsell option. You have sold someone a Windows OS machine you would upsell them a Windows phone. Now its upsell them an android phone.

Basically the OEM MS depends on is voicing that they are upset. Question is will Windows 8 make them happy again with the surface tablet unlikely. They are already making there own Android tablets.

Clarence Moon MS lose of moblie phone market share is linked to there own OEM turning against them. The question is how far are the OEM’s going to take it.

You are just talking out of your butt as usual, Mr. O. Personally, I am totally unaware of any “hate” speech made by Dell, HP, or even IBM in regard to Windows 8. Can you Google some up?

Ditto for these companies promoting Android devices. It may be true that they have a few in stock, but they do not seem to be making any sort of splash.

As to your charmingly unsophisticated views on product marketing, I can only smile. Check the results next spring.

1990-1995 is where MS Market share starts. With many deals around the world bias in it favour over the competition.

Clarence Moon
“As to the Surface product, my marketing instincts shout at me to say that this is a classic example of a market leader setting a stake in the ground that they expect their followers to rally around. ”

You have a short memory Clarence Moon.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/19/technology/microsoft-surface-table-pixelsense/index.htm
Surface starts in 2007-2008 and it was a flop.

The surface tablet is attempt to recover some profit from the surface table department. Calling the tablet surface is an attempt to recycle the marketing spent on the surface table.

“Surface a trump card” yep same was said about the Surface Table. So exactly what is new now.

You forget items like playforsure on mp3 and others. Microsoft putting a flag in the ground and say rally almost never works. Like 95 release the OEMS paid for marketing. They rallyed back then. By XP Microsoft was having to foot the bill. The last successful OEM rally MS did was 1995.

idevices have had a far more successful rally calls to OEMs to make third party products.

It is going to be a real out side chance that OEM do rally over surface tablet. There is a risk of the exact other way.

Reason you will not see a rally is the market is fairly well saturated with products. MS has tried the high end card with Windows Phone 7/8 and you know how well they sold. Market is tell us that the high end plus MS normally does not work. I am not saying it will not this time but the market feeling is against it.

Clarence Moon
“Nook and Kindle and now Nexus are slugging it out on 7″ devices, running the prices into the ground and profits out the window as a response to Apple.”
Who are you kidding. Not one of those android devices is selling for less than they cost to make.

Price of making these devices is dropping. Why because more and more are being made without ever seeing a human in the factory. So there is 20 to 40 percent profit on the Android devices.

Those high result-ion screens Apple is using is not cheap they also require larger battery for the same life. 7inch lets the android device avoid being compared on screen result-ion. Also allows the device to be lighter due to smaller battery.

Basically the android and the apple both have the same basic level of mark up on them. 40 percent to hardware price.

Use some common sense, Mr. Pogson. I think your emotions are running away from your reason. For all the Machiavellian attributes you assign to Microsoft, would you npt suppose that they are in close and continuous contact with the handful of OEMs who process the major part of Microsoft’s business?

Can you really see Microsfoft’s Ballmer saying “Let’s spend a few billion developing a crazy-looking UI and then we’ll spring it on everbody next year!”. Of course not. The OEMs are all in the good old boy club, just as you suspect, and they sit around on Steve’s yacht periodically and decide how they are going to split up the pie for the next go-around.

Movers and shakers at Microsoft, LG, Sony, Dell, HP, and many others, likely Apple and Google, too, are in constant mesh, engaged in the sort of “com-oper-tition” that has kept everyone fat, dumb, and happy for the past 30 years. Put Intel and the others in that boat, too.

As to the Surface product, my marketing instincts shout at me to say that this is a classic example of a market leader setting a stake in the ground that they expect their followers to rally around. None of the OEMs are making any profitable headway against the iPad in the iPad space, namely the upscale 10″ $600+ tablet. Nook and Kindle and now Nexus are slugging it out on 7″ devices, running the prices into the ground and profits out the window as a response to Apple.

Microsoft is merely showing the way. They are going to position an upscale device with a high visible brand above the iPad space and they are going to make owning a Surface a trump card to owning an iPad. That gives Microsoft’s traditional OEMs some room to sell similar devices under the iPad price levels without actually robbing them of top-end sales, which they never had in the first place.

Not really. percentage of that time fueled by Anti-trust actions. Including increase price of supply on those who shipped there own OS’s.

OEM’s have slapped MS in the face many times. Like the surface touch tables.

MS spread that GPL was bad. Android a lot of carriers and so on are now looking at gecko on the go and meego related.

Nothing says MS will remain on top until the end.

Clarence Moon android is different to windows in one very particular way. Maker can do there own custom versions. HTC android is not just android its been highly altered.

MS has not really let OEM makers do there own customised.

Clarence Moon really I have understood the complete time its large companies vs large companies. Problem is you had the wrong large company in charge of Android future.

What happens in Linux kernel is fueling gecko on the go and the meego forks back into the market.

So android is not the end of the market changes. Its just the start. OEM makers will always want to stand out from other OEM makers.

Clarence Moon
“Those who contribute their time without compensation and actually do contribute to the common weal are the bigger fools in my thinking.”

It is over 80 percent of people in the FOSS world paid to work on it. Its like you are running a server you have a problem you know how to fix it you paid to fix it you submit patch up stream. So your workmanship is reviewed. You were paid.

Android developing an application it a bug in android fix it submit patch up stream. Again you were paid.

Corporations thrive true but FOSS Platform also makes sure the little guy gets a fair go as well since everyone can see the same amount of the platform.

Clarence Moon Microsoft does not do what ever the hardware maker asks. If hardware maker decides that for some reason today they want to release an android 1.5 device they are free to under Android.

Android allows OEM’s to ship what ever version the OEM maker thinks suits their product.

“fawn over a few K of bits that execute state switching and arbitrate task priority.”

Really the parts I call important items like meego and gecko on the go require as well.

The FOSS world does not end at one simple point OEM’s will keep on bring new stuff into the market.

Like when M$ releases their “Surface” product??? The OEMs don’t agree to anything. M$ tells them what to do and they have to do it if they want to stay in the PC business. That’s changing and will likely end within a year or so but it has been SOP for decades.

Well, the same can be said for Windows, Mr. O. Microsoft has to supply a product that the OEMs agree to be effective for their purposes and so they dictate what happens with Windows. Microsoft’s ability to meet OEM requirements has kept Microsoft at the top for several decades now. The top is where they will remain until the PC market disappears.

At the end of the day, it is just a competition amongst a dozen or so large corporations for the buyer’s software buck and it seems to me to be rather silly for you Linux fans to fawn over a few K of bits that execute state switching and arbitrate task priority.

Those who contribute their time without compensation and actually do contribute to the common weal are the bigger fools in my thinking. Added to them are the wannabes who actually contribute nothing but fool themselves into thinking that they are part of some “community” working to thwart the evil institutions like Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, Oracle, Intuit, etc., who glean the tens of billions in profits annually from supplying software to the world’s computer users.

At the end of the day, the corporations thrive, even in this time of adverse economic conditions, and nothing much changes except that every few months there is some new development for everyone to talk about until the next iPhone arrives.

Meanwhile, PC Linux enjoys its 1% usage share and 0% market share.

What he meant to write was “I have no basis for my opinion of Android/Linux so I will bash oiaohm for punctuation.””

http://mrpogson.com/2012/07/31/databases-expensive-oracle-offers-route-from-sql-server-to-mysql/#comment-92903

“Don’t write for me. I can think for myself.”

Android/Linux GNU/Linux….

Clarence Moon “You can’t mess with Android” You can mess with a lot of Linux routers either or a tivo… They are Linux still.

If you can or cannot modify it does not change if it Linux or not. Changes if it a open FOSS platform yes.

Clarence Moon
“The only code that goes into Android is code that is put there by Google, just like Windows code is placed there by Microsoft.”
Not 100 percent true. Windows yes you are correct Android not completely true.

Kernel level with android that is not true for the 4.0+ versions.

The kernel.org project has final say on all new patches to android kernel. Reason quality control at kernel.org is higher than Google internal was. Yes there were a lot of kernel based security bugs in older androids when Google was in charge of the kernel in there own right that traced to google created code. Error per line of code was higher google internal than at kernel.org.

http://elinux.org/Android_Mainlining_Project This team is part Google Part Vendors and Part Linux general developers.

Google maintains a iron fist over the userspace ABI even so the Google userspace ABI has changed the kernel features it requires in places to be more mainline Linux compadible. As of 3.4 Linux kernel the stock Android Google Userspace will run. Ok security items not working but it runs.

Clarence Moon the path we are on at some point there will not be an Android Linux Kernel. It will be just the kernel.org kernel mainline.

Clarence Moon this is the problem management of the kernel for Android devices is kernel.org not Google. This is why Android without question is a Linux. There are a few patches still that are from old google development that are not resolved.

This is also why items like seccomp filters other name seccomp v2 has going mainline first.

Clarence Moon kernel.org only accepts quality code.

Even with the Google userspace if I have a idea for a feature I want and can code it I can still submit it to google to go threw approval to be include.

Clarence Moon tell me can I submit code to windows without being windows staff.

http://source.android.com/source/submit-patches.html << Here is the tinkers invite.
So yes you are allowed to submit alterations to Android. Does not mean you will be approved if you are approved you get your name in the credits.

Google does final approval yes. The Nexuis class devices are made so tinkers can do there own proto alterations to android and test them before submitting upstream.

Clarence Moon yes you are welcome to tinker with Android if you wish. Just buy your devices the right way.

Linus on the Linux kernel has final say what the Userspace syscalls will be. Does not prevent you from making your own altered kernel.

http://www.cyanogenmod.com/ is a case of people making there own Android relation.

Clarence Moon your claim is very much like saying you cannot mess with ubuntu. If you wish to mess with Android you can. Locked down bootloaders on some devices might get in way both otherwise no problem.

Clarence Moon windows and android are massively different. Legally I can make a fork of Android as long as I don't call it Android and ship it on as many devices as a like.

Windows I cannot legally make a fork of it and ship on as many devices as I like.

Of course Android does not prevent you from being an ass and bootloader locking the device. UEFI microsoft is doing the same thing to x86 and ARM hardware.

Clarence Moon google is less in control of android than Microsoft is in charge of windows. Many companies sit on the development board of Android at google. Mostly hardware vendors. Those vendors can out vote google and have something include in Android google does not particularly want.

So really Google is not in-control of Android at all Clarence Moon. They are one of the parties that have some control over Android.

Hardware vendors do not have a seat at Microsoft to control the development of Windows.

Who has true final say on what is in or out of the userspace of android. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Handset_Alliance That group.

So if you were complain about Open Handset Alliance having too much power over android you would be correct. Google is only a small fish in the Android pond. Or on other words the marketing department.

Android is run on a completely different model. Open Handset Alliance passed a vote ordering Google to move kernel development of android to kernel.org due to too many bugs.

Clarence Moon you have a complete failure to understand who is really in control of Android. You have looked for Microsoft like company. Google got its foothold by being willing todo what ever hardware makers asked it todo.

The reality is a bunch of OEMs is in control of Android.