Chuckle. M$ effectively took over Nokia and is driving it into the ground. Fortunately a lot of their laid-off staff are competent to use FLOSS in a new venture. Like Phoenix, rising from the ashes, Nokia is being reborn as Jolla and flying on the wings of FLOSS. M$ should not have expected the discarded workers to just sit down and do nothing. Now, Nokia and Phoney “7″ will have even more competition. I wish them luck. The field is already crowded but MeeGo/Linux or Tizen should perform even better than Android/Linux because it’s native code.
“A group of ex-Nokia staff and MeeGo enthusiasts has formed Jolla (Finnish for "dinghy"), a mobile startup with the aim of bringing new MeeGo devices to the market. According to its LinkedIn page, Jolla consists of "directors and core professionals from Nokia’s MeeGo N9 organization, together with some of the best minds working on MeeGo in the communities."”
see Ex-Nokia staff to build MeeGo-based smartphones | The Verge.
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One of the most ancient rules of product marketing is “Find a need and fill it!”. The Jolla folk seem to be heavy on engineers and finance guys, but woefully short of any marketing talent, else they would not make such a stupid move. There is no unfilled need in the cell phone industry today and there is a majory shakeout occurring with the demise of RIM and perhaps Nokia itself if the WP alliance fails to re-ignite their fire.
Meanwhile, Apple pulls away from the pack as the market leader provider with Samsung a distant second. A number of other notables follow them, as well. There is absolutely no room in the market for such a lame startup. See if you ever hear from them again, Mr. Pogson.
@Clarence Moon
your statement ………Meanwhile, Apple pulls away from the pack as the market leader provider with Samsung a distant second.
Please enlighten me. Am I misinterpreting the info on these sites.
http://www.businessinsider.com/smartphone-sales-its-now-apple-and-samsungs-game-to-lose-everyone-else-is-toast-2012-5
http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS23455612
Good point, JR. Both Apple and Samsung are doing very well by any measure but Samsung is huge and still accelerating in smart phones. Tablets are another matter and Samsung has much more competition there. Imagine Apple’s share if they competed on price/performance instead of hype and patent-suits.
USA does love its home-boys so Apple does very well there. It’s the rest of the world where Apple does not bother to compete where Samsung kicks their butt.
Am I misinterpreting the info on these sites.
The depends on what you deem most important. As a product marketer I think the whole game is to bring home the bacon and the winner is the one who can reap the largest profit. Apple is far and away the product marketing leader there. See articles like this one.
If you would rather count noses or some other unit of measure, then you are free to draw your own conclusions. But if you ignore the money involved, you are not really a player.
Also, consider it is not Apple vs Android, but rather Apple vs Samsung vs HTC vs LG vs Motorola vs Nokia, etc. That is how the real game is played.
Clarence Moon
“As a product marketer I think the whole game is to bring home the bacon and the winner is the one who can reap the largest profit.”
Then by this statement MS Dos should have died vs Apple. Historic battle disagrees with your statement here.
Its not the largest profit now that is important. Apple vs Android is another Apple vs MS Dos style battle.
Results are very predictable Apple long term will lose. Why the multi vendors of Android are able to try more things. Yes the means to throw something against the wall and see if it sticks.
Yes in the MS Dos vs Apple battle. Apple did have more profit than Microsoft at one point. This did not magically prevent them from falling out of existence.
At particular point in time Apple had more applications than MS Dos as well in desktop publishing.
The historic trouble figure is between 70 and 90 percent dominance. If android gets to that point iOS could have a major defection problem of developers. Yes then it market collapses in a heap.
So the question is will apple profit keep on going or will we have another MS Dos vs Apple. Where Apple done all right for a while then gone splat.
Basically the long term game is market share. The short term game is revenue.
So you only care about the short term game Clarence Moon.
Clarence Moon wrote:
“As a product marketer I think the whole game is to bring home the bacon and the winner is the one who can reap the largest profit.”
Oh, now I understand. That explains a lot.
This did not magically prevent them from falling out of existence…
You seem terribly confused. Perhaps it is a lack of formal education in these matters, Mr. Oiaohm. Unfortunately, I think that your attitude is going to be an impossible block for your to overcome and you are never going to get much of a clue. As a helpful hint, though, I will tell you that it is not relative profit that would keep a company in business nor cause it to exit a business.
In the case of Apple, they did not exit their businesses and eventually found a sort of Renaissance in the iPod/Phone/Pad products and cashed in on their image left over from the early days. I might further note that there is no “Android vs Apple” battle at all. The Android device manufacturers compete with one another and hardly cooperate to foster Android. Android exists courtesy of Google and serves to power devices that rival those of Apple but never seem to catch the same spirit as what comes from Cupertino. But that is a whole other set of issues.
Clarence Moon Renaissance is the thing. The iPod and the related Idevices was a lucky break for Apple. Without that it was the way of the dodo.
Clarence Moon
“The Android device manufacturers compete with one another and hardly cooperate to foster Android.”
Historically identical to the MS Dos PC machines vs Apple of old. Yes PC machine makers hardly cooperated with each other as well.
Its the fact the manufacturers android devices are fighting with each other cause development.
Microsoft never has had the spirit of Apple either. Spirit is not enough to keep your developers.
Bang vs Buck beats Spirit always has and always will.
Clarence Moon you are too young. I saw Linux kill off Unix. I saw PC’s beat Apple. I saw exactly what happened.
Neither case was it Linux or MS Dos better than the competitor or having better spirt.
Clarence Moon
“I might further note that there is no “Android vs Apple” battle at all.”
Take out the world Android put in MS Dos and you just quoted Jobs from the time when apple was doing well in the desktop computer market.
Even this line is quote Jobs.
The Android device manufacturers compete with one another and hardly cooperate to foster Android.
Android device for PC makers and Android at end for MS Dos.
Its that you are so young you words are an exact match. Really don’t know how you did it.
This is my problem Clarence Moon your lines you are saying match historic lines perfectly. History repeats. Even your reasons why Apple will not fall are exactly the same as Apple vs MS Dos.
Now when you are repeating the words of history and believing in a different outcome to what really happened you are being very foolish.
Its the same game repeating. All that changes is who is sitting where and what market it is.
Before ipod apple was on the way out Clarence Moon.
Really your arguments for apple don’t have legs. Clarence Moon. Android market share growth shows no sign of slowing. Apple most likely will stay in the phone market under 5 percent and when they get pushed back to that there desktop market share will also be at risk.
Reality you don’t know the history of the MS Dos pc vs Apple or Linux vs Unix. So you are miss reading what the information is tell you. All apple has is a short term gain.
Also the MS Dos battle tells you to expect something else. The attack of the related OS. Like Dr Dos and other things from the dos age. This is going to be meego and mozilla own phone os. So what is going on there was able to be forecast simply be seeing that this battle is a history repeat containing different players. The way its playing out is following exactly what happened before. There are not be a single variation to a unpredictable path.
Also in the MS Dos age Microsoft sold makers unlimited licenses. “Android exists courtesy of Google” Same is statement would be true about MS Dos early in its age.
Seeing the problem yet Clarence Moon. Remember the old saying if you don’t study history your are doomed to repeat it. This is exactly what you are doing you are in some cases repeating historic quotes with a few words changed. Yet your are completely oblivious of this.
I am stubborn because you are not saying any particularly good reason why Apple will retain enough market share to remain viable long term. Apple were not viable before the release of the ipod.
If apples market share falls back there they will not be viable again and have to hope to come up with another magic save move if they can.
@ Clarence Moon
“As a product marketer…..”
The topic is about mobile phones.
I agree a market leader “is the the one with the highest market share which is either the proportion of the total market value of a product or group of products and is shown as a percentage of the total value or output of a market, usually expressed in US dollars, pounds sterling, or euros, or as individual units, depending on the commodity. The product, service, or company with a dominant market share is referred to as the market leader”
Ref:http://www.qfinance.com/dictionary/market-share
That said have you any site comparing just the profits made on the Iphone and the Samsung smartphone
or the volumes sold.
have you any site comparing just the profits made on the Iphone and the Samsung smartphone
I went to the extreme effort to post a reference to a site that did just that, Mr. JR. I am saddened that you did not bother to check it and my efforts were in vain. Please revisit my post and look at the citation. As an added aid, you can just go here for a direct access to the source materials for the CNN Money article.
@ Clarence Moon
Thanks for your extreme effort, believe it or not I did read the site so sorry to sadden you but the site you posted is dated November 2011 It is now July 2012.
Both the 2011 and 2012 profits on that site are estimates if that what the (E) means next to the year.
You stated that Samsung was a distant second.
Perhaps your definition of distant is very different from mine.
Perhaps you would like to read these sites and see if things eight months later are still the same.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/27/samsung-apple-smartphone-sales-profit
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2169645/Samsung-profits-surge-79-Galaxy-smartphone-demand-outstrips-iPhone.html
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/7/6/reutersworld/20120706174123&sec=reutersworld
http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/06/samsungs-galaxy-s-smartphones-fuel-5-9b-record-profit/
Remember also that Samsung has only now been allowed to carry on selling the nexus smartphone again after
being banned from doing so.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2170805/Blow-Apple-US-lifts-Samsung-Galaxy-Nexus-ban-STILL-sign-iPhone-5.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
@ Clarence Moon
Contrary to what you think I did look at that site so no need to be saddened but the only problem is that the site article was written in November 2011 and the figures for 2011 and 2012 have an (E) next to them which I think means that they are estimates.
It is now July 2012 eight months later.
You state that Samsung is a distant second, perhaps we have a different definition of distant.
The following articles may have some relevance:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/27/samsung-apple-smartphone-sales-profit
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9227208/Android_Samsung_top_smartphone_sales_beat_Apple_s_iPhone
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2169645/Samsung-profits-surge-79-Galaxy-smartphone-demand-outstrips-iPhone.html
http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/06/samsungs-galaxy-s-smartphones-fuel-5-9b-record-profit/
And please don’t forget that Samsung was banned from selling the nexus and has only now been allowed to sell it again.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2170805/Blow-Apple-US-lifts-Samsung-Galaxy-Nexus-ban-STILL-sign-iPhone-5.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
Clarence Moon it still does not say if that high income per unit of Apple is long-term maintainable. History over and over again says not maintainable.
The lessons of history are what you completely disregard Clarence Moon.
At the start of the PC age Apple made a killing as well. So start of the Mobile age they make a killing is also a history repeat. Currently its look like almost exact repeat. Also this is insanely rare. Normally a history repeat has different players each time. Or the same player in a different location. Did not happen this time what is highly rare.
Apologies for the double posting thought the first one had gone missing
@ Clarence Moon
Maybe this will help in reducing the distance
http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-windows-rt-tablet-tipped-for-october-with-qualcomm-chip-09237602/
JR Bad point is no other arm chip makers have confirmed they will provide windows rt chips.
So this could be MS taking up the place of apple in the market with. Interesting point is that the samsung windows rt tablet is not using Samsung produced and designed arm chips.
Ipad use a A4 chip that is Samsungs. Samsung also produces particular models of devices using there own internally designed chips.
This is a very interesting day. Microsoft Apple and Android devices all coming out the one set of factories being Samsung.
Yes this means finding out what mark up each is using it going to be simple to find out.
Historic first really.
@ oiaohm
I will never understand all this and what these companies hope to achieve in the end but herewith some more sites that maybe of interest.
Meanwhile we end up paying more for everything.
What happened to good old fashioned competition.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-03-29/apple-s-war-on-android
http://semiaccurate.com/2011/04/19/apple-suing-samsung-is-incredibly-stupid/
http://www.dailytech.com/Samsung+Now+Making+Apples+SmartphoneTablet+Chips+in+Texas/article23537.htm
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apple-vs-samsung-explained-an-overview-of-the-patent-battleground/
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/07/15/213244/apple-hopes-to-drop-samsung-as-chip-supplier
Perhaps your definition of distant is very different from mine.
A 7 to 1 ratio, even if only (E), strikes me as a big lead, JR. Mr. Pogson is thrilled when the lead for Windows shrinks to a perceived 50 or so to one, so maybe you are of the same persuasion and would see a 15% Linux share as a massive victory.
At the end of the day, it is only a money thing, and Apple, so far, has managed to collect the very most money of anyone from smart phones, tablets, and even MP3 players. Regardless of your biases or lack thereof, that is an impressive achievement across a variety of markets and represents someone doing things the right way for commerce.
@ Clarence Moon
Is this 7 to 1 ratio you sent me based on that site from November last year or is it based on current trends.
is it based on current trends
What are “current trends”, JR? The Nov 2011 article represents an evaluation by some consortium of CNN, Forbes, and Money and directly compares a number of phone suppliers. Its estimates seem to embody the volume claims made in other areas, so one can only believe that their collective wisdom is a more reliable indicator than the biased hopes of others who pray for a Microsoft debacle.
Do you have some later comparison to show?
Clarence Moon
“At the end of the day, it is only a money thing, and Apple, so far, has managed to collect the very most money of anyone from smart phones, tablets, and even MP3 players.”
This is correct and incorrect.
To this point Apple has managed to collect more money than anyone else. Samsung is not that far behind. With growing market share on Android Samsung may take that title off Apple.
The effect of market share. As a collective all the Android makers have collected more than Apple. Its the fact you see all the Android makers are individuals that you don’t see that Apple is not exactly doing that good.
If you lose control of the market you lose your income. This is why where the Market share is going is important. Market share tells you the future income out comes to expect.
Clarence Moon Microsoft tablet debacle has already happened. Only confirmed Arm maker of windows rt is Microsoft commissioning Samsung. By this point normally you would have 3 confirmed makers or more in a market segment with Microsoft OS’s.
Question is how big of a debacle. is it going to be. If you look at Samsungs history they have been making the token Microsoft Windows Phone. HP and Dell have both confirmed they are not going to release Windows RT at all. Mind you both have confirmed they are working on Android devices for that segment.
Also its interesting the MS surface is suffering from low yield in case production. But its a style and material of case Samsung produces day in day out. This suggest Samsung is not willing to make a large volume and MS had to come up with some excuse for the lack of supply.
Basically pull your head out sand Clarence Moon the evidence is pointing to a debacle question is how big.
BYOD lot are saying this will save MS surface in fact BYOD is the reason to use central server solutions so removing need to windows tablets completely. This as already been a effect documented in India. As BYOD increased Windows laptop sales dropped in India.
Really Clarence Moon the evidence of a Microsoft disaster coming has already happened. Even Vista Starter had more confirmed makers before release than Windows RT.
So this could be MS lose the entry level computer. If that is the case it will have major effects on Microsoft. Entry level computer could be something android.
@ Clarence Moon
You obviously have not looked at the sites I posted have a look at posts No: 11 & 12
Seeing that you are so astute at pulling out facts and figures why not pull out the following details
Samsung’s profits on smartphones from 01 April 2012 to 30 June 2012 and do the same for the apple Iphone.
If there is still a 7 to 1 ratio then fair enough.
Collective wisdom does not cut it as far as I am concerned I see too much of that on the net.
Facts are the only indicators.
And what on earth has Microsoft got to do with it.
I am no disillusioned fanboy of anything so please your comment “Mr. Pogson is thrilled when the lead for Windows shrinks to a perceived 50 or so to one, so maybe you are of the same persuasion and would see a 15% Linux share as a massive victory.” is really totally irrelevant, stick tot the point.
@ Clarence Moon
Looking at that site you sent again I am just wondering where exactly did you get the ratio
of 7 to 1.
According to the graph and the explanation Apple’s Share of the profits for 2011 is 65% and if I look at the blue portion representing Samsung’s share of the profits I would think that 16% is a fair estimate.
This gives you a ratio of just over 4 to 1.
The article then states that Apple’s share of the profits for 2012 will be nearly 70%.
Again looking at the graph, the blue portion I would estimate at 15% as the delineating line appears not to be quite in the right place which then gives you a ratio of 4.7 to 1.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Please correct me if I am mistaken
I would not say that you were mistaken, JR, rather that you are focusing on something rather immaterial. My “7 to 1″ statement was based on a rough estimate of the number of bars, i.e. 7 divisions for Apple, a little more than 1 for Samsung. Whether it is 7 or 4.7, is inconsequential to the notion that Apple has a much better handle on the market in terms of profitable operations, which was the original point.
They are getting a far better return on their efforts than Samsung. Any adjective regarding superiority of operations that has meaning at 7 to 1 has the same meaning at 4.7 to 1.
@ Clarence Moon
So tell me a mere +/- 3 billion dollars relative to 7 billion dollars is a trifling amount and not worth mentioning.
Fair enough perhaps I was being a wee bit pernickety.
I will be a little less so in future.
You were chided once in regard to maintaining context, JR, so this is your last warning. The issue was in regard to the degree that Apple leads the market in terms of revenues and profits and so has mastery of the smartphone market. Please stick to that point or raise another in a post of your own.
@ Clarence Moon
your comment refers:
“A 7 to 1 ratio, even if only (E), strikes me as a big lead, JR. Mr. Pogson is thrilled when the lead for Windows shrinks to a perceived 50 or so to one, so maybe you are of the same persuasion and would see a 15% Linux share as a massive victory.”
The above was your point not mine.
I thought I was in context. We learn something new everyday.
Thanks for pointing that out.