Robert Pogson

One man, closing all the windows.

Why No Government Should Deal With M$

  • Nov 25 / 2011
  • 57
technology

Why No Government Should Deal With M$

In an attempt to persuade Australia to allow Australian government documents to be stored off-shore, M$, in a discussion paper wrote, “Any company with a presence in the United States of America (not just those with headquarters or subsidiaries in that country) may be legally required to respond to a valid demand from the United States Government for information the company retains custody over or controls, regardless of where the data is stored or the existence of any conflicting obligations under the laws of the country where the data is located”.

That should be enough to persuade any government to store its own records in-house and using FLOSS, software not beholden to any corporation. Further, no government should have anything to do with a US corporation. This is the “ugly American” in IT, presuming to rule the world. We don’t accept that. M$ is deluded about its own power and that of its buddy, Uncle Sam.

see Microsoft to Aussie gov: Privacy rules stifle e-Health

I recommend Debian GNU/Linux, a cooperative product of the world. It works for you and not some erratic corporation.

57 Comments

  1. oiaohm

    Robert Pogson thing is you are not forced to choose a monoculture of 1 anti-virus 1 antispyware solution one office suite…..

    If you do the system is weaker than it should be.

    From a secuirty stand point choosing a monoculture is always a mistake. Always has been a mistake.

    Windows that due to design forces you to be more monoculture makes it weaker.

    Look at the secuirty options you have in Linux to avoid a monoculture secuirty issues. Different host intrusion detections software and network instruction detection software that can be run side by side with each other without causing issues.

    When you start trying to use third party secuirty software with each other on Windows it don’t work.

    Design issue from hell basically. The more you are forced todo stuff mono-culture the weaker to viruses and everything else your OS is.

    Windows on forced mono-culture usage is closer to a pure mono-culture than what Linux systems are.

    Yes I rate OS by how far away from mono-culture state of 1 application for task at the same time I can go.

    OS X and Windows are not very high up the scale and it directly links to some key API’s for monitoring the system being exclusive.

    Basically look closer most likely on your thin terminals you have firefox and chromuim web browsers installed. Yet there are still a lot of businesses where the only web-browser installed is IE.

    Yes a person even running windows can choose paths that lower the mono-culture level.

    We have to learn form MS mistake or we will repeat it.

  2. Robert Pogson

    oiaohm wrote, “Linux monoculture is not better. Issue with monoculture are not unique to any OS.”

    There are many ways in which a GNU/Linux monoculture would be better than a monoculture of that other OS:

    • thousands of new malwares produced daily have no effect,
    • IT would cost less and we could afford to spend more on security (spend on security, not licences),
    • there would be fewer feature-bloat-induced refresh cycles and more improvements to performance/security, and
    • the basic structure of the OS would be well defined/not obscure which is naturally more secure and provably so.
  3. oiaohm

    By the way anti-virus companies with virus naming make Linux and FOSS hurding cats issue look simple.

    I have see where people are reporting 10 different virus names to me when I research it they are the same virus. How can you control a virus spread if no one knows what is going on.

    This is anti-virus software forcing mono-culture so making you systems weaker.

  4. oiaohm

    That is the issue oldman. Choosing a monoculture in case of a secuirty issue is bad. Always bad.

    Linux monoculture is not better. Issue with monoculture are not unique to any OS.

    FOSS world by nature never normally ends up a full monoculture as your only option. You can choose like a different distribution for servers than client machines.

    This is all about proper infection control. Same methods that have been used by farmers producing clone plants apply in the work place when you start talking reduced down time due to security issues.

    This is part of the reason why I back the ideas of ODF. ODF is readable by libreoffice openoffice koffice and many other programs. Rules of multi-culture More than 1 item better be able to do the same job at a decent level. This way in case of issue with one option you can stop using it until it fixed. If you are in a mono culture if you hit a secuirty issue it can spread fast.

    Same with farmers a crop line may be stopped being used until new strains are made that are resistant to the problem.

    Thing is I am not choosing mono-culture when I have Windows desktop backed up with Linux boot from lan. So in case of issue I can maintain some functionality.

    In time Windows might become something like Reactos or some other OS as well.

    As Linux potential is being realized my backup systems are becoming more dominate.

    Yes the day I am installing Linux in businesses as a monoculture style install with no extra strains for resistance to issues in place I will be unhappy as well.

    Key thing oldman I like shades of grey solutions not black and white solutions.

    One of the biggest mono-culture issues in windows is the fact you can only install one anti-virus side by side with real-time scanning without risking stepping on each other. Linux systems don’t apply this limit.

    Yes sections of Windows API needs to be redesigned to allow non monoculture. As you know oldman no single anti-virus detects every virus. Yet inside a business how many strains of anti-virus do you have.

    Monoculture can be reduced by different secuirty solutions being deployed on different systems.

  5. oldman

    “At long last we are starting to get the cats trained to hurd.”

    Perhaps. but in the end I deal with the here and now, not the potential of the future, and at best what you describe is a potential.

    And even if that potential were realized, Why is a Linux monoculture any better than a windows monoculture?

  6. oiaohm

    oldman there is a reason for my avoidance of running mono-cultures I come from a farming background.

    Mono-culture clone crops have the most issues. They are almost never planted. In citrus for the clones you will pick at least 8 different trees as clone sources with different DNA and plant them in a pattern to reduce spread of infection. To get to some form of multi-culture solution as well as providing dependable crop for customer.

    You complete desktop Windows is very much the IT equal to planting a Monoculture clone crop so you have more down time issues from infections compared multi-culture solutions.

    So suggesting a clone mono-culture as a solution to me will always sound completely stupid and in my eyes show laziness. Yes creating a crop of trees it lazy to use one clone source until you lose the lot.

  7. oiaohm

    oldman go back 5 years and mostly the Linux large boats where not talking to each other at least properly it was 5 years ago more cannon at 10 paces and hope they did not blow them selves apart in fact Gnome and KDE were still pro-actively trying to kill each other.

    I do know this well because I was at the online foundation meetings of freedesktop project and the battle 2000 to 2006 it was mostly we invented this everyone else should copy. Big boars like Gnome and KDE would log jam each other in this process. So fail to todo turns.

    There has been a changed 2006 on. So yes before 2006 everything was crashing into everything else.

    Even windows is hampered by the mass of smaller boats not doing what MS wants. You run a OS this is normal.

    Now that the bigger boats are starting to operate in a unified way without being tied to a particular desktop environment on Linux proper progress is going on. This progress will keep on speeding up as more boats see the gains.

    In fact you have acknowledgement of the change. Before 2006 Linus described the process as hurding cats. Not something easy todo. At long last we are starting to get the cats trained to hurd.

    oldman
    “On the desktop side, there is no such takeover. Your determination that a world in which both windows and linux exist is IMHO an acknowledgement of that fact.”

    You missed me say OS X and Linux combination as well. And some places I do a OS X Windows and Linux combination.

    Just because I am prepared to run all the desktops outer there for the jobs they suit does not say I don’t believe that 100 percent Linux is impossible.

    I am not going to choose a monoculture and end up with round pegs in square holes oldman this is very bad for productivity.

  8. oldman

    “The Linux world has changed oldman and you have missed the evidence of it. Its like a supertanker turning it does not appear to turn at first.”

    I have missed nothing. On the server side, we both know Linux has taken over from proprietary unixen as the major platform. On the desktop side, there is no such takeover. Your determination that a world in which both windows and linux exist is IMHO an acknowledgement of that fact.

    THe Linx world is IMHO more like a collection of boats of varying sizes, that all steam more or less in same general direction. But while some of the (Mostly) larger boats communicate with each other and do execute turns more or less together, they are more often than not hampered by the larger mass of mostly uncoordinated smaller boats who only seem to respond to very generalized orders that are executed as polite requests rather than commands.

    Were it not on some levels so depressing, it would be almost comical to watch.

  9. oldman

    “The believers do not accept that M$ is evil or that it matters that M$ is evil. That, too, is their choice.”

    Pog, The only thing that I believe in is the software that I use. That software is currently supported by two vendors Apple on OS X and microsoft on Windows. Apple is currently out of the picture do to cost, so microsoft it is.

    If the day comes that it is offered on a linux desktop, then I will reevaluate my position.

    Until the I use what I use.

  10. Kozmcrae

    http://mrpogson.com/2011/11/25/why-no-government-should-deal-with-m/#comment-66233

    Very well said. I could not have said it better. And I mean that. I couldn’t. You managed to pack the whole enchilada into a neat little paragraph. The only difference with me is that I suffered with Microsoft until 2005. Anytime is a great time to split with Microsoft though.

    I will try to keep it civil for the sake of your blog here Mr. Pogson. But if the need arises, cut me off without hesitation. Take that not as a failing of my control but as a barometer of the BS floating around on this blog.

  11. oiaohm

    libregraphics projects oldman some have completed some are works in progress. But your claim of lack of interesting in proper fixing up the desktop features is undermined by the progress many projects like libregraphics have archived in the last few years.

    This is the thing oldman items like libregraphics are key change in operation of projects.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenRaster Unification of key image processing oldman. Unification of color management is another area under-way.

    Yes problem oldman some of the things I talk about seam like a work in progress but are in fact changes in how the Linux Desktop environment has been working.

    A long time ago the idea that krita gimp and others would be working on a unified image storage format was a pipe dream oldman. By a long time ago I mean 5 years ago. Each of them would have tried to make each other use there own internal format. Not taking the best form each format and making the best quality outcome.

    The Linux world has changed oldman and you have missed the evidence of it. Its like a supertanker turning it does not appear to turn at first.

  12. oldman

    “I believe he’s be shut off of this blog before under a different nym.”

    Nope. This is the only nym that I have. But of course Mr. K you don’t believe me.

    Not that It matters.

    At any rate. it will go on.

    You will call me mnames.

    and I will ignore you.

    And BTW. Robert Pogson will continue to make his choices, and continue to attempt to advance his own Anti-Microsoft Agenda using the same increasingly ancient problems/complaints over and over again.

    I and I will continue as I see fit to answer those same points over and over again, until Pog shuts me down.

    Its all good.

  13. pogson

    Well said, but keep it civil please. After years of doing things M$’s way it is very hard for anyone to change and yelling at them does not help. Myself, I used M$’s stuff from about 1992 until 2000 and put up with all the malware and bugs until it affected my teaching negatively. Others stuck with M$ and see that M$ has improved the reliability of its stuff recently and are willing to forgive all the re-re-reboots and stuff. That’s their choice. I can only say what a blessing FLOSS has been to me and I will continue to tell the world about it. At the same time I do point out the evil that M$ represents because many are unaware. The believers do not accept that M$ is evil or that it matters that M$ is evil. That, too, is their choice.

  14. Kozmcrae

    “Just How do you intend to make me pay.”

    You are as thick as a brick @ldman.

    “Your wife should be mortified at your behavior not mine.’

    Yes, that’s precisely what I said. Do you even read the comments on this site?

    “I really don’t enjoy folks getting beaten up around here. Let’s concentrate on IT instead of personalities, please. Beat up on M$ if you like, though…”

    Folks are getting beat up every day on this blog. Insults are a form of beating up. Wearing someone down with the same BS day in and day out is a form of beating someone down.

    I’ll come out and say it. You know my agenda. I’ll stand by everything I’ve said to @ldman. You can shut me down anytime you want Mr. Pogson. But it’s my belief that you’ve given @ldman far, far too much of a stage here to pump out his crap on FLOSS. If you watch him he varies in his tone. When he gets put in his place he’s all buddy buddy. But soon enough he’s back to his denying old self. He’s a piece of work. I believe he’s be shut off of this blog before under a different nym.

    Here’s my agenda. I will not let @ldman get away with flogging FLOSS. His BS (“I’ll have you know Mr. K. that I use FLOSS at work too”) that’s suppose to wow me? I will call his BS for what it is and I will call him for what he is, an idiot, for thinking he can slip one by me.

    As for the other Microsoft boosters that visit this site, their insults are a different kind of punishment. I still don’t understand why someone would adopt such a low-life persona while defending the actions of a company.

    You’ve nurtured a big stage here Mr. Pogson and you don’t want to get messy. With that in mind, I cannot see the advantage of the constant bickering back and forth on basically the same subjects day after day. From my point of view it looks like something from the Twilight Zone or maybe Groundhog Day.

    FLOSS keeps growing and making advances in new markets and that’s what you bring to this blog. New material. But the people who comment on behalf of the proprietary interests keep falling back on the same tired old crap. They bring nothing new to this blog. They just try to shut it down. That’s why I give @ldman and the others a hard time.

  15. oldman

    “I really don’t enjoy folks getting beaten up around here. Let’s concentrate on IT instead of personalities, please. Beat up on M$ if you like, though…”

    Thank you Pog. For my part I shall attempt to be more civil, but I cannot guarantee that civility if my fellow posters start making disparaging remarks in my direction.

  16. pogson

    I really don’t enjoy folks getting beaten up around here. Let’s concentrate on IT instead of personalities, please. Beat up on M$ if you like, though…

  17. oldman

    “”Why am I so hard on you? Because you are not going to get a free ride on this blog if I can help it. You will pay for your bold faced denial. You will pay for dragging the discussion down into a slugging match. ”

    Just How do you intend to make me pay. Mr. K.? Will you call me names? will you heap insults on me.

    This is almost funny.

    Your wife should be mortified at your behavior not mine. It would seem to me that by assuming the apparent role of unthinking verbal bomb thrower all you succeed in doing The linux flip side of the mocking windows zealots who Pog has banned.

    Good luck to you in your new role.

  18. Kozmcrae

    “Oh , I dont dismiss it, Mr. K. I USE it.”

    Day in, day out, day in, day out. It’s the same old crap with you @ldman. Of course you use it. How could you not use FLOSS in this world?

    “…then prove it!” Another fact @ldman. You don’t really deal well with facts. Wait, you don’t deal with them at all, you dismiss them. So, got to hell. I’m not playing your game. I thought you knew that.

    @ldman, you are an idiot of the first order. A loud, big mouthed, know-it-all idiot.

    Why am I so hard on you? Because you are not going to get a free ride on this blog if I can help it. You will pay for your bold faced denial. You will pay for dragging the discussion down into a slugging match.

    I just read this comment to my wife. She was mortified. I told her that @ldman loves to get beat up. That’s why he comes to this blog every week day. To get beat up.

  19. oldman

    “Simple fact oldman you are that far out the loop that I guess you don’t know about the libregraphics projects and other projects funding for the exact goal of fixing up the weaknesses”

    Your problem Mr. HAM is that you keep talking about things that are as best works in progress. Works in progress dont count in my book Mr Ham. When the problems are fixed and the linux desktop has vendors who produce across the full spectrum of desktop use, then we will talk. Not before.

  20. oldman

    “@ldman, you demonstrate FLOSS’ major impact simply by your attempts to dismiss it, day after day after day after day after day after day………”

    Oh , I dont dismiss it, Mr. K. I USE it. What I dismiss is its ability to provide desktop applications that duplicate the features that I depend on.

    “By the way, the fact that you are an idiot, is a fact. One only needs to scan a few pages of this blog to understand that.”

    Is it now Mr. K? then prove it! What facts dont I care about Mr. K?

    How about enlightening me.

    Or are you just proving that YOU are the idiot here?

  21. Kozmcrae

    Robert Pogson, you’re too nice. @ldman is an idiot. His mind is locked up tighter than if fishes a$$hole.

    His statements (“There are a lot of reasons why that will never be true… You don’t get something for nothing.”) by themselves reveal their absurdity. First of all, he uses the word ‘never’. Stupid. Second, if his statement were even the least bit true, FLOSS would not even exist. Yet it does, and in a huge way as is demonstrated every day on this blog.

    @ldman, you demonstrate FLOSS’ major impact simply by your attempts to dismiss it, day after day after day after day after day after day………

    Now do you understand why I don’t bother with content @ldman? No, of course you don’t because you are an idiot. You don’t care about the facts. So I deal with why you don’t care about the facts. Because you are a closed minded idiot. If you ever get past that, then we can talk about the facts.

    By the way, the fact that you are an idiot, is a fact. One only needs to scan a few pages of this blog to understand that.

  22. pogson

    oldman wrote, “You don’t get something for nothing.”

    Per transaction, that is true. Goods and services cost time/effort/something to produce and in a transaction people tend to want a fair deal.

    Globally, oldman’s assertion breaks down. I am old enough to remember the old days when a fellow with an axe and saw could build a log cabin in a few days. It can be done but it’s very hard and dangerous work. It is far easier to have a few helpers. In the old days, people who needed cabins built would cooperate and one week would build Joe’s cabin, the next week Billy’s and so on until the group had cabins. In that situation, per transaction, no one is properly compensated for effort but globally and over time, everyone is. FLOSS is like that. Each makes some investment. Each is abundantly rewarded.

    oldman’s problem is seeing how the end-user contributes. In oldman’s view, the end-user is a parasite taking and not giving. That could be true but it’s irrelevant if even a few end-users contribute bug reports, documentation, or spread the word/software. In the end, the obvious contributors get paid and it doesn’t matter to them that some get the product for nothing. The software still gets written for many reasons. Some like the kernel developers are usually paid by businesses that make/save money by using Linux. oldman likes that, I assume. Developers for other niche apps tend to use the software in their own work and don’t mind to share because they are compensated by their use of the software. Others create the software for no charge and benefit by selling services/consultation related to it. No one is more expert than the guy who knows the software inside and out and builds the software in response to real needs. Others create the software for fun or experience. They may only do this for a part of their career so they are compensated by a lifetime of enhanced employment because of skills acquired.

    I think Linus said it best:
    “Imagine ten people putting in 1 hour each every day on the project. They put in one hour of work, but because they share the end results they get nine hours of “other peoples work” for free. It sounds unfair: get nine hours of work for doing one hour. But it obviously is not.”

    I have written similarly before. oldman does not accept this but I keep trying. He seems to feel if some contributions to FLOSS are by amateurs that the whole thing is trash and it’s not. Some of the world’s best developers contribute to FLOSS and they love it.

  23. oiaohm

    oldman “no affinity with people” is not correct. It that I understand people that I do use the correct methods of company cost reductions.

    “I’m also willing to bet that your management has a far more skeptical view of your rational arguments than you know.”
    LOL LOL. Yes that is worth a double LOL. How do I remove windows. I first removed the require of closed source applications from the areas that don’t require them. Ie Windows OS with Firefox/chrome + Libreoffice + thunderbird. Normally less than 20 percent of staff need MS Office or specialist closed source programs.

    Switching to Linux for users normally does not get noticed. Its funny when you have staff asking what version of windows they have installed on their computers because they want to install it at home because its such a improvement in getting work done. Yes it turns out to be Linux Desktops. They thought it was some special company theming of the desktop.

    Normally I never get to 100 percent conversion of the desktop. 80+percent is common. That 80 percent requires less maintenance.

    —those “idiots” who run the show have their own ideas about what is needed to run a business.—

    Hello oldman problem he is a moron. The people who run the shows are not idiots. They are interested in results if you can demo better results at lower cost going a different path they will perfectly go along with you.

    I know exactly how to demo to them what they want to see and deliver. Issue here oldman you have never proper delivered a Linux desktop solution to a customer in your life by the way you speak.

    rational arguments + proof is what the management wants to see. Of course this is normal for most.

    Note I never ever have requested a business go 100 percent to any desktop. Reason even before Linux desktops it was nothing uncommon for some staff to be on Apple desktops due to better applications for job being there.

    “You don’t get something for nothing.” LOL who said getting FOSS software is getting it for nothing. The applications are appearing. The focus to generate better quality FOSS desktop applications is happening.

    Simple fact oldman you are that far out the loop that I guess you don’t know about the libregraphics projects and other projects funding for the exact goal of fixing up the weaknesses.

  24. oldman

    “The apps will appear when GNU/Linux is shipped more widely.”

    There are a lot of reasons why that will never be true Robert Pogson, but the major reason can IMHO be summed up in one old phrase.

    You don’t get something for nothing.

  25. Clarence Moon

    The tune needs to be a popular one, else the audience will vanish over time. Starting with Pavlov’s dogs, the science has been that people will look for satisfaction to their needs and a job/career that offers fulfillment of needs is a real part of that. If a company makes life uncomfortable for its employees, they will be in the market for another job. Murphy’s Law says that they will ultimately find one just when they are needed the most by their current organization.

    That is not to say that one has to offer Linux PCs to any employee that likes Linux so intensely, of course, but the employer needs to be aware that the employee will be looking for a Linux job and will abandon ship when the opportunity arises. I personally doubt that the urge to have Linux desktops is so strong with anyone that they would ignore other factors, but it could happen.

  26. pogson

    Clarence Moon wrote, “A worker who can get another job quickly and easily would probably defy their manager if they felt they were on defensible ground.”

    …but they would still be “between jobs” while trying to find “justice”. Employers have the right to control how work is done in the workplace. Many managers insist on that other OS only simply for the reason that that’s all they know whether or not it’s best for productivity or cost/benefit. Similarly, some managers declare that migration to GNU/Linux will happen and they find/promote the workers who will make it happen. It’s the same with lighting, security, hours of work, etc. The employer pays the piper and calls the tune.

  27. pogson

    oldman wrote, “I also understand on the desktop side at least there is such a huge people factor to deal with that Linux on the desktop will go nowhere soon.”

    Linus Torvalds said much the same. He called doing the desktop “hard” compared to all the other stuff GNU/Linux does. That is partially true because drivers have to be constantly produced for new hardware but manufacturers now largely support GNU/Linux so it is not anywhere near the problem it was 10 years ago. I don’t agree that GNU/Linux is not handling hardware because I have used brand new equipment and machines as old as 15 years with GNU/Linux with no real problems. I think the real problem for GNU/Linux on the desktop is still that OEMs and retailers are reluctant to change horses. Keeping GNU/Linux off retail shelves is their choice, not the ISVs nor the consumers. That’s a huge barrier to overcome and it has nothing to do with drivers. Now that prices are being driven up on x86 PCs due to shortages of hard drives and OEMs are selling hundreds of millions of smart thingies running Android/Linux, the log jam is broken. There is no longer any real business problem with using GNU/Linux. Android/Linux needed apps and they appeared because Android/Linux was being shipped. The apps will appear when GNU/Linux is shipped more widely. That’s happening even if M$’s “partners” claim otherwise.

  28. oldman

    “When I feel that my experiences and opinions are relevant to the discussion I will offer them, until then it’s not your business oldman.”

    Then I can only assume that you will offer your own pointless positions, just from another perspective.

    “So I’d much rather point out the pointlessness of your position then join in in a pointless discussion.”

    Strangely enough I can appreciate that position. But then again, the reply’s section of this entire blog is essentially a floating bull session that keeps those like myself occupied when there is some slack time during lunch hour or at the end of a work day.

    In the end Robert Pogson is entitled to his opinion, not just because this is his blog, but because from the context of his experiences it is a form of truth.

    It is also in the end quote pointless. both windows and linux will proceed down the paths that they are targeted on no matter what any of us say.

    Personally, I could care less about what markets microsoft does or does not get into. So long as the continue to product the tools that I use, and provide the platform for the non microsoft applications that I use, I am good.

  29. Waldo Frankenhammer III

    When I feel that my experiences and opinions are relevant to the discussion I will offer them, until then it’s not your business oldman.

    If you don’t see me as offering anything of relevance then that’s good. To join in would be to become part of circle going round and round, day after day, month after month…

    I have been an observer of these pages for some time. The arguments are essentially the same day after day. You, in particular oldman. You pick out the same details, applications for instance. That makes no difference at all if it’s not the applications the business in question are looking for. You follow the same path every time. You are rather boring in that respect.

    So I’d much rather point out the pointlessness of your position then join in in a pointless discussion.

  30. oldman

    “oldman, you see enemies where there are none. You see zealots where there are just people with different experiences and opinions than yours.”

    I dont see you as anything more and less than someone who thinks he is going to talk about subjects that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Perhaps you would consider cutting the bushwah and stating your position. What are your experiences and opinions?

    You might find that we agree more than you think.

  31. oldman

    “This is the problem oldman lot of your statements are not based on real world events at all. Also are not done in proper comparative context. So you don’t understand what is really going on”

    Oh I understand, Mr. Ham quite well. That is why I use Linux on a professional level. It does not own my hardware because it cant provide me the combinations of function and feature that I require to get my work done.

    Linux is a fact of life in the server rooms of my employer. As a result it runs on my desktop in a virtual machine so that I can keep up with the support and architectural issues while preserving my windows based working environment toolset.

    I do understand that things can change, but I also understand on the desktop side at least there is such a huge people factor to deal with that Linux on the desktop will go nowhere soon.

    This is IMHO where you are incompetent, Mr. HAM. because you have as far as I can see, no affinity with people. From your words I would say that all you know how to do is bully and abuse “rational arguments” to make your case. The problem is of course that the situation is more complex that you understand. People issues do count you know, especially when those “people” have the clout to tell you that they are not going to agree with you and that’s that. I’m also willing to bet that your management has a far more skeptical view of your rational arguments than you know. That your arguments get seen for the bias that they are. They are considered to the extent that they are useful, but they are otherwise politely dismissed…

    and…

    surprise, surprise…

    You are supporting windows whether you like it or not.

    because

    those “idiots” who run the show have their own ideas about what is needed to run a business. So your job is to make sure that there windows machines stay is secure as possible and a manageable as possible.

    whether you like it or not.

    Perhaps the day will come that commercial vendors whose applications that I use personally and professionally use offer their applications on Linux, If that day does come, and the price of conversion is right, I will personally convert to a Linux desktop.

    But Not one minute before it is necessary.

  32. oiaohm

    oldman
    “The only one that I knew of took place in a small tech concern that was already 90% linux. They were able to get rid of the last 9%, but only after much, much careful planning and with the full backing of management. And even THEN they were forced to deal with the reality that theyre were some applications that they couldnt just duck walk out the door.”

    Migrating a Full Linux operation to Windows you can also run into this issue of missing applications. Its the nature of OS change. There are some applications that run on Linux that there is really no good enough replacement on Windows at all. OS X yes but not Windows.

    “Meh, this is a non issue – All of the code has long since been ported and tuned for linux.”
    LOL dream reality again oldman. Most of the Unix programs have been deprecated and replaced with open source solutions and other new solution. Small percent were ported oldman.

    This is another case of you not being up with reality.

    Oldman so businesses running 90 percent Linux. Ok so 10 percent max require Windows.

    Going 100 percent 1 OS no matter what it is does mean missing out on some application. Linux is good enough to dominate 80 percent of business desktop space. So leading to lower desktop care requirements. Just like Windows is really only good for a max of about 85. Yes truthfully Windows for quality of provide is only minor-ally ahead of Linux.

    Good question about that last 9 percent could it been served by OS X equally as good as Windows? If so Windows was only being gap filler. If Windows was only gap filler nothing will stop android taking up that role in time.

    Willing migrations between Windows versions are few and fair between as well Oldman. The simple issue humans don’t like to migrate between platforms full stop.

    When the desktop is over 80 percent Linux the users will normally pressure the last 20 percent of what ever other OS to go no matter what. Due to exactly the same reason users don’t like OS migration of any for.

    Also while the desktop is majority Windows users will try to force everything to be Windows oldman.

    Humans love mono-cultures in operating systems. Does matter if it bad for the budget and secuirty.

    So you have seen willing migrations to Linux oldman. Not all the goverment cases have been unwilling pressure other than cost limits.

    This is the problem oldman lot of your statements are not based on real world events at all. Also are not done in proper comparative context. So you don’t understand what is really going on.

    90 percent Linux environment no matter what getting right of Windows no Matter the application cost this should have got you wondering why they would do such effort when they could basically run Windows in virtual machines or equal. There is a driving force here. A driving force Linux has to overcome to beat Windows.

  33. Clarence Moon

    You must come from a rough neighborhood! I have seen managers act as herders rather than leaders and they generally languish at the first line level before being moved to some staff assignment or even riffed when convenient. The better managers lead effectively and get promoted and know how to recognize the potential in other managers who get promoted as well.

    A worker who can get another job quickly and easily would probably defy their manager if they felt they were on defensible ground. If you are living in fear of arbitrary punishment, you need to rethink your options.

  34. pogson

    oldman wrote, “unwilling workers”. Aren’t those mostly unemployed or on social assistance? Where I have worked, workers do what their bosses tell them. There are instances where bosses are weak and let the workers run wild but that is rare. More often bosses are bullies who like to order people around just to stress them. I once worked for a prinicpal who didn’t feel successful if he didn’t fire a couple of people annually. Why would workers risk their jobs by defying the boss?

  35. Waldo Frankenhammer III

    oldman, you see enemies where there are none. You see zealots where there are just people with different experiences and opinions than yours. It’s not for me to tell you what to do but if it was, I would tell you to take a break from this blogging/commenting business. You are without a doubt overly sensitive for this endeavor. Your work must not be much of a priority if you are here defending your personality.

  36. oldman

    “In spite of the fact that I specifically did not set myself up as the “judge” you interpreted my statement otherwise. ”

    You said:

    “I’m not telling you this for your amusement today but for the judgment that awaits you”

    and after I responded you said.

    “Judgment awaits all of us. That’s just common knowledge.”

    Given the first statement, I interpreted it as the overblown verbiage of a linux zealot. Now from context I can see that you are apparently attempting to bring a particular religious world view into what is first and foremost a technical discussion.

    IMHO, this kind of comment does not belong here. You may wish to consider not continuing along these lines.

    “You are an insecure individual with somewhat of a persecution complex. It would appear you come hear to get beat up.”

    Whatever I am I am glad that I am not you Mr. F.

  37. oldman

    “Of course you would not notice the fact today Linux no longer supports these compatibility layers.”

    Meh, this is a non issue – All of the code has long since been ported and tuned for linux.

    “Funny enough windows is also forced on unwilling workers.”

    I guess you must still have a sore behind on that one Mr. HAM. Life’s a bitch isnt it?

    “Not all cases are the workers unwilling to the Linux migration.”

    But I will bet you that those cases are very few and far between, Mr. Ham. The only one that I knew of took place in a small tech concern that was already 90% linux. They were able to get rid of the last 9%, but only after much, much careful planning and with the full backing of management. And even THEN they were forced to deal with the reality that theyre were some applications that they couldnt just duck walk out the door.

  38. Waldo Frankenhammer III

    You don’t know what your own reality is oldman?

    In spite of the fact that I specifically did not set myself up as the “judge” you interpreted my statement otherwise. You are an insecure individual with somewhat of a persecution complex. It would appear you come hear to get beat up.

  39. oiaohm

    oldman
    “That a substantial part of the success of inux as a server is as a platform to run commercial closed source applications that used to run on proprietary unixen?”
    Of course you would not notice the fact today Linux no longer supports these compatibility layers.

    Foot in door basically. Android is just another foot in door process. Once the door is part open getting the rest of the way is simpler.

    Funny enough windows is also forced on unwilling workers. Not all cases are the workers unwilling to the Linux migration. Just like not all cases are Windows users unwilling to change windows versions.

    Simple fact your claims over the WTO had no base in reality of events that have already happened oldman.

    WTO is powerless to stop the day governments decide to ban closed source products being used. There are many precedents allowing this.

    Basically over what WTO can and cannot do you need to come to reality of it.

    Microsoft banned due to being closed source is perfectly acceptable by WTO rules and regs and agreements. Just like Open Source being banned from competing in particular bids due to be open source. WTO does not help or effect any countries response to open or closed source products. All countries are free to choose what areas of their market they ban closed or open source from competition by WTO.

  40. oldman

    “But you are too caught up in your own reality to see the reality of others. And don’t make the mistake of thinking they are lesser realities.”

    What realities are those Mr. F?

    That a substantial part of the success of inux as a server is as a platform to run commercial closed source applications that used to run on proprietary unixen?

    That a few governments have shoved FOSS down the throats of unwilling workers?

    That FOSS was used as the base of the commercial success that is Android that allows for the creation of commercial closed source applications.

    That there are a lot of geeks like you who use FOS on linux and are happy with it?

    I am well aware of those realities. I am also aware of the fact that the mixed world of windows and linux based applications that I work in are going nowhere soon.

    As far as your judgement is concerned, get over yourself jack. You are in no position to judge anyone.

  41. oiaohm

    oldman
    “But it IS a fact that no country is going just ban another business from doing business for fear of retaliation.”
    Can you not read I knew your english was poor. China already has at different times banned business from doing business in China. WTO is toothless in this regard. As long as the case is made on the basic logic of national secuirty no country will do retaliation.

    China is not the only country that has banned MS for short time frames under national secuirty grounds. Each one did not have access to the Windows Source code after banning MS got access to the source code.

    This is your problem oldman your base that MS cannot be banned due to WTO is bogus. So lets say china says for national secuirty all OS’s sold in china had to be FOSS and thing else is banned. WTO cannot do crap basically. Retaliation will come from no country because if they do they then risk the means to block based on national secuirty.

    You can make a very good case for national secuirty why as OS has to be FOSS.

    Already in particular classes of devices like the joint strike fighter all parties for national security are demanding access to the source code and the right to modify and use modified versions. Basically the joint strike fighter is FOSS between governments just not FOSS to the general public.

    This is the problem for more and more things countries are demanding the right to see the source code and the right to modify it and use modified versions at no extra charge.

    The requirement of war machines to be audited and altered for combat conditions is slowly undermining the existence of closed source.

  42. Waldo Frankenhammer III

    Judgment awaits all of us. That’s just common knowledge.

  43. Dr Loser

    “I’m not telling you this for your amusement today but for the judgment that awaits you.”

    Let the witch-burning commence!

  44. Waldo Frankenhammer III

    “The problem is, Mr. techno Janitor is that I am closer to reality than you have ever been.”

    No oldman, you are closer to ‘a’ reality. But you are too caught up in your own reality to see the reality of others. And don’t make the mistake of thinking they are lesser realities.

    You believe Mr. Pogson to be an island of some sort, but it is you who are becoming more isolated in his thinking. There are fewer of your kind then you realize. I’m not telling you this for your amusement today but for the judgment that awaits you.

  45. oldman

    “So closed source software legally can be locked out of a market and there is nothing you can do about it.”

    Any international body can only go as far as its members let it Go Mr. Ham. But it IS a fact that no country is going just ban another business from doing business for fear of retaliation.

    “Sorry oldman stiff briskets.”

    The problem is, Mr. techno Janitor is that I am closer to reality than you have ever been.

  46. oiaohm

    oldman
    “The simple reason is that no country wants to set the precedent of banning a particular company from doing business, lest they set up for getting one of their companies banned.”
    LOL China did based on not source code access to OS. So banned Windows from being imported or produced.

    Right to modify also can be asked for under WTO but no one has done that yet. WTO is toothless really oldman about time you wake up. Nothing WTO can block countries from banning MS out right because its not FOSS. So closed source software legally can be locked out of a market and there is nothing you can do about it.

    WTO could not do anything about open source being locked out of markets either. Sorry oldman stiff briskets.

  47. Clarence Moon

    The Patriot Act was a knee-jerk sort of reaction to a horrible situation a decade ago and needs to be revisted in light of today’s better understanding of the world’s political conditions.

    Clouds, by intent, do not honor political boundaries and are global in nature. If the Netherlands has such fears, it may choose to not adopt the technology and remain with existing, politically protectable, privacy. In general, no one is interested in an foreigh national individual’s personal information; it is simply not worth the while of an agency such as the FBI or CIA or NSA to bother with unless the individual has some critical tie to a terrorist group or criminal enterprise such as drug smuggling.

  48. pogson

    “Microsoft is giving the Chinese government access to the source code for Windows 7 and other key products in an effort to head off any concerns about the security capabilities of Microsoft products.

    The review is an extension of an agreement signed in 2006 which enables China immediate access to the source code for Windows 7, Vista, XP, Server 2008 R2, Server 2003, and 2000, and the embedded software CE 6.0, 5.0, and 4.2. Also included is the source code for Microsoft Office 2003 Professional Edition and most other Microsoft products.”

    see InformationWeek 2010 China Gets A Peek At Microsoft Source Code

    This stems from a stirring in 2002 over security. see M$

    “The Government Security Program (GSP) is a global initiative that provides government participants with access to source code for Microsoft products and platforms including Windows, technical information, and development staff. This level of transparency allows governments to better evaluate and protect their existing systems and to more securely design, build, deploy, and maintain future computing infrastructures through customized guidance, while developing partnerships and mutual trust for future collaboration.

    More than 60 countries and territories are eligible to enter into Government Security Program Source Code License Agreements and Authorizations with Microsoft.1 To date, 39 countries and 2 international organizations participate in the program. Microsoft honors the participants’ confidentiality and allows each government to choose whether or not they wish to publicly announce their participation in the GSP”

    Malware was thriving in M$’s ecosystem and the possibility of a “backdoor” by M$ prompted governments to promote “open source” software. M$ was forced to compete by opening its source for examination. I expect more than one government considered banning M$ on the basis of security.

    See Netherlands – Dutch Government to Ban US Providers Over Patriot Act Concerns

    Here’s an article about various technologies being banned. A branch of the US government once banned Vista…

  49. oldman

    “WTO has a loop hole demanding the provide of source code and the right to modify. So effectively banning Microsoft is legal.”

    Then why hasn’t someone tried tried to do so eh? The simple reason is that no country wants to set the precedent of banning a particular company from doing business, lest they set up for getting one of their companies banned.

    Remember Mr. Ham business is not necessarily a clean pastime.

  50. oiaohm

    oldman
    “But attempting to ban a company from doing business outright does. ”

    WTO has a loop hole demanding the provide of source code and the right to modify. So effectively banning Microsoft is legal.

    Simple fact WTO allows you to ban items like Microsoft out right on secuirty grounds.

  51. Waldo Frankenhammer III

    It’s amazing you even bother to post Ivan. You never leave the bounds of make believe and high school grade insults. The impact of your words equal nothing. Your time here equals nothing. Your influence here equals nothing. So it would seem I am wasting my words on you and I suppose I am. Oh well, maybe you’ll get tired of repeating yourself.

  52. Ivan

    Jesus, Bob, even from you this is idiotic. Unless you are a member of al qaeda or any affiliated bunch, the US Government doesn’t give a red rats hairy ass about you or your stupid medical records.

  53. oldman

    “oldman Problem here going Linux does not breach WTO.”

    But attempting to ban a company from doing business outright does.

    All elas you wrote is noise.

  54. oiaohm

    oldman Problem here going Linux does not breach WTO. Reason Linux is a USA produced product just much as anywhere else. So you are not refusing product based on that is USA product. You are refusing it on audibility.

    Take what the USA is doing to HTC and Hawaii over so called cyber crime possibility. Of course they are not that worried there hardware has very few secrets.

    Now that the USA government dares accuse HTC and Hawaii of possible cybercrime assisting without any evidence to the fact. You have to ask what has been done to windows. There is a risk what a person is asking questions about they have done themselves to products made under their control.

  55. pogson

    So, cloud computing is bad because it is insecure and unreliable but M$’s cloud is good, eh?

    WTO can go to Hell if it means the USA and M$ get to dictate how people do IT.

    Article XIV bis: Security Exceptions back to top

    1. Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed:

    (a) to require any Member to furnish any information, the disclosure of which it considers contrary to its essential security interests; or

    (b) to prevent any Member from taking any action which it considers necessary for the protection of its essential security interests:

    (i) relating to the supply of services as carried out directly or indirectly for the purpose of provisioning a military establishment;

    (ii) relating to fissionable and fusionable materials or the materials from which they are derived;

    (iii) taken in time of war or other emergency in international relations; or

    (c) to prevent any Member from taking any action in pursuance of its obligations under the United Nations Charter for the maintenance of international peace and security.

    see http://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/26-gats_01_e.htm#articleXIVb

  56. oldman

    “Further, no government should have anything to do with a US corporation. This is the “ugly American” in IT, presuming to rule the world. We don’t accept that. ”
    You should know better Pog.

    It doesn’t work that way in a world committed to fair trade Pog. What you suggest would be presented as an unfair trade practice to the WTO so fast it would make your head spin.

    In point of fact the world uses computing tools that it sees fit right now. FOSS and closed source commercial are all side by side, each according to need and economy.

    As you often say, its all good.

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