That Other OS Worthless

A respected commentator, oldman, writing of the four freedoms of Free Software wrote, “As IMHO worthless as they are.” The four freedoms are:

  • The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
  • The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
  • The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
  • The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Those who do not value access to the source code could be excused for not valuing freedoms 1 and 3. However the values of  freedoms 0 and 2 are huge.

Without freedom 0, the software is all but useless and a licence that prevents you from running the code would be bizarre but that’s what people often get with that other OS when they obtain the software pre-installed on an OEM’s PC. The EULA (End User Licence Agreement) prevents you from running the code under all kinds of circumstances:

  • lost/ripped COA (Certificate of Authenticity). I have encountered many of those in schools where idle hands of students do evil.
  • change of motherboard. You may not run that other OS with any other motherboard than the one that shipped on your PC.
  • sale of the PC. The software has to go with the PC or it cannot be run.
  • connection to more than 10 “devices”. Sheesh. If there are 12 PCs on your LAN the boss cannot share his blurb of the day by SMB/CIFS.

So, “POOF!”, the licence for which you recently paid ~$100 when you bought your PC is now worthless. You could try selling that $100 box for $200 but you likely will have no way to recoup the loss by selling the PC. So, freedom 0 can really save you money and headaches.

Freedom 2, the freedom to make and distribute copies, is obviously valuable as whatever the cost of acquisition of the software, you can make N copies for something like cost/N making the software even more valuable. M$ gets of the order of $50 per licence and the OEM gets of the order of $50 per licence so the consumer pays of the order of $100 per licence with that other OS. That is $100 X N for N exercises of Freedom 2. That’s real money in your pocket/budget that you can spend on other things like hardware, networks, documentation, training, etc., valuable stuff.

So, oldman is wrong. The four freedoms have great value even for those not accessing the source code. For those who do access the source code, the other two freedoms are priceless. M$ and others charge huge prices for that freedom and only a few select “partners” are eligible. Where I worked last year we ran GNU/Linux on 100 clients and servers so the four freedoms were worth something like $10K for the OS and likely more for the applications and servery. I value the four freedoms a lot just in terms of money.

When you consider the time/labour the four freedoms save,  the value is much more than that listed above:

  • Because the software may be copied without extra documentation/budgeting, the owner of the PC can update the OS and the applications together with a single package manager. Not having to account with the budget and a dozen suppliers really saves a lot of labour.
  • Because the software may be copied, I can have a local repository and install over the network on a new PC, a repaired PC, a new hard drive, etc. over the LAN at very high speed with no need to buy a CD or licence for each machine.
  • Because possession of the software includes the licence, I do not need to authenticate to M$’s servers or type/scan in an authentication code, or document/explain/plead that my PCs and software are properly/legally licensed. My licence does not disappear if a sticker is damaged or a CD disappears.

Finally, I believe, with reason, that Free Software source code being visible produces better software because bugs are more easily fixed and features added more easily, FLOSS has greater value than that other OS and many closed-source applications for it. Much non-FREE software has tons of features that include some that oldman and others appreciate but just the plethora of features makes the software more prone to bugs and more difficult to use, a negative value.

So, for many reasons, Free Software does have a lot of value and most of that value is a result of the four freedoms. A good place to start enjoying  the value of Free/Libre Open Source Software is Debian where you can learn about and obtain Free Software for the cost of downloading.

About Robert Pogson

I am a retired teacher in Canada. I taught in the subject areas where I have worked for almost forty years: maths, physics, chemistry and computers. I love hunting, fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, too.
This entry was posted in technology. Bookmark the permalink.

105 Responses to That Other OS Worthless

  1. Yonah wrote, “Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems Linux has no universal standard for sending error messages to a user’s preferred desktop environment.”

    Most programmes spit something out on stdio or error. That’s what I do: “writeln(‘this is wrong:…, Quitting.”). If you want to send messages, to the GUI GNOME or KDE have methods that work. They pop open a little window… Zenity does that.

  2. Yonah says:

    “If the user does not see the window close he will find it closed when he looks for it.”

    Good point. Why buy a smoke detector? Seeing your home reduced to a pile of smoldering ashes will give you a clear indication your house was on fire.

    Robert, no matter if the application has an open window displayed on the screen, minimized on the taskbar, running as a tray icon, or completely invisible, not notifying the user of a program being terminated due to an error is unacceptable for a modern operating system. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems Linux has no universal standard for sending error messages to a user’s preferred desktop environment.

    Also, all of the diagnostic methods you mention can also be used on Windows in the extremely unlikely event a program terminates without notification.

  3. oldman says:

    “Yes, I’m sure it does, but you love to feel the heat blowing on you ankles when you do. Go on, admit “oldman”.”

    Mr. Chapman, I really don’t care about anything other than sizing my hardware to support the applications that I want to use. If I overbuild, it is because I know that if I do so the software that I wish to use just works and I can get on with music.

    Your insinuation is IMHO bushwah that says more about you than it does me.

  4. Richard Chapman says:

    “What turns me on Mr. chapman is to be able to put my ideas down on the digital equivalent of score paper…”

    Yes, I’m sure it does, but you love to feel the heat blowing on you ankles when you do. Go on, admit “oldman”.

    Yes, #2. Music and computers do have some kind of relationship. I was once hired for a job over the other applicants because I was a musician.

    Got to go. I’ll scan the rest of your post later.

  5. Contrarian says:

    “So, the folks who grumble about GNU/Linux or FLOSS here are a pretty small minority”

    As are the ones who are going over the top to praise them, #pogson, I would rank it at about even. Anyone who doesn’t bother to reply can only be counted as Undecided.

  6. oldman says:

    “So now you’re a musician “oldman”?”

    Yep, Mr. Chapman I am. I studied music composition and got into computers because I wanted to get into what was called at the time “computer music”. The Computer music thing turned into the carreer that pays the bills, but I am still a composer, albeit now an amateur one.

    “I don’t care about what you care about. Blazing hot processors don’t turn me on. Loads of memory don’t tickle my fancy. Whatever is the coolest, hottest, most advanced piece of personal technology you can own today will be a piece of junk in five years or less. It’s a rat race on a tread mill, and you’re the rat.”

    What turns me on Mr. chapman is to be able to put my ideas down on the digital equivalent of score paper, then push a button and hear the a performance of those ideas performed by a digital version of the ensemble that I hear in my head. THAT is satisfaction sir.

    The real point here is that I have what I want without having to play games with “technically satisfying” software that is Linux or FOSS. I just plunked my cash down and got down the the business at hand – composing.

    Yes the hardware that I compose on will soon be passe. But I expect to be using it to compose music for a long time to come. And thats what counts.

  7. Richard Chapman says:

    So now you’re a musician “oldman”? If I mentioned I built pre-amps for recording consoles using GNU/Linux applications would you come back and tell me you finished the design of your latest guitar effects pedal on your netbook while riding home in a taxi?

    By the way I don’t but a good friend of mine does and he uses a Mac, last I knew.

    So we seem to be in this stupid battle of one-ups-man-ship. I don’t think you understand. I don’t care about what you care about. Blazing hot processors don’t turn me on. Loads of memory don’t tickle my fancy. Whatever is the coolest, hottest, most advanced piece of personal technology you can own today will be a piece of junk in five years or less. It’s a rat race on a tread mill, and you’re the rat.

  8. oldman says:

    “So, the folks who grumble about GNU/Linux or FLOSS here are a pretty small minority.”

    Frankly, the vast majority of computer/internet users are not even a part of the debate, they just go a bout doing other stuff.

  9. oldman says:

    “You don’t know Linux “oldman”.”

    And you do Mr. Musician.

  10. Richard Chapman says:

    “Linux isnt even in the running.”

    You don’t know Linux “oldman”.

  11. I take pleasure from making things work using GNU/Linux. My next project is likely to put my wife on a thin client. Her PC puts out too much heat for her office unless the air conditioner is on these days and it has an aluminium case that “sings”. She could also lose the UPS under her desk. I can either convert her machine to be her private terminal server or fix Beast and move her to a really powerful machine. Power in her hands could be dangerous…

  12. oldman wrote, ““defending” Linux from the barbarian hordes”.

    How many is a horde? One of the side effects of trying to diagnose this annoying out of memory problem is that I now have access to Apache’s logs. A bit of grep, sed, sort and uniq finds 1300 unique IPs in the access.log for the last month. 300 of them are from search engines. So, I guess a horde is about 1000 human visitors. I don’t think there are more than a dozen or so posting comments here, about 1%. So, the folks who grumble about GNU/Linux or FLOSS here are a pretty small minority.

  13. oldman says:

    “I came to use and stay with GNU/Linux because it’s more technically pleasing than anything from Microsoft. Any “moral” or “ideological” aspects are secondary.”

    Technically pleasing Mr. Chapman?…..

    hehehehehehehe..

    An interesting observatio, IMHO

    You sure sound like a zealot and Idealogue, and your hanging around here “defending” Linux from the barbarian hordes, whenm you could be doing something useful like jamming, strikes me a prime idealogues pose.

    As they say “if it walks like a duck…”

    Oh BTW, before I posted this, I spent time on the bus composing music using finale. The ensemble finale is driving is for a large ensemble which is loaded in memory on My portable PC which is As I sure you could guess a Quad core I7 Smoker (albeit a 1.77Ghz a modest one) with 16Gb of RAM. There is no need for external synthesizers, mixers, or whatever – It all resides in memory and comes with me so I can just sit back and compose where I have time.

    Now thats technically pleasing, Mr. Chapman.

    And the closest that I could come to doing it on qa *nix core would be to buy a Mac.

    Linux isnt even in the running.

  14. Richard Chapman says:

    “Yet, without the feeling of moral superiority that comes from using FOSS software and a personal grudge against Microsoft, what I see is not so great at all.”

    This business of “moral superiority” seems to be a recurring theme with you proprietary types. I came to use and stay with GNU/Linux because it’s more technically pleasing than anything from Microsoft. Any “moral” or “ideological” aspects are secondary. Could it be that you are coming from a feeling of moral inferiority? Somehow I doubt it but you are the ones broaching the subject, not us. If you don’t want to read about GNU/Linux and moral superiority, then don’t bring it up. I think I counted the word ideologue or one of its derivatives seven times on one of your kind’s posts. You seem to love the subject.

  15. Yonah wrote, “With Linux, because the GUI is a separate afterthought, it seems delivering a notification of a program crash is a difficult thing.”

    There are two cases, assuming one is using the GUI:

    1. The programme has an open window the user can see, and
    2. the programme does not have an open window the user can see.

    Normally, the user who sees his window disappear/close does not need to be notified because he already knows. If the user does not see the window close he will find it closed when he looks for it. In either case, the user has been notified and with the kind of priority he gives the application. If you want more there are many ways notifications can be done:

    • If I have a recurring problem, I will start the application in a terminal and that window will stay open revealing console messages, and
    • if I have a random event, I can start a process to monitor the application and log it or sound an alarm according to the activity or lack of activity, and
    • I can use more sophisticated tools like logging an strace to watch the progress of the application.

    That will give you a Hell of a lot more information than that other OS gives a user.

  16. Yonah says:

    Richard, I was referring to the idea that FOSS advocates must elevate all FOSS software to be above proprietary software in all possible ways. It’s how they can reject anything non-free and not feel as if their disadvantaged. Though I rarely find a FOSS application that beats a proprietary one, if it exits I use it. I don’t have to reject a particular program based on its license or development style. You and I are not so alike after all.

    Oiaohm, regardless of how long you claim to have “been around” much of your information is inaccurate, lacks credibility, or is just plain goofy. Opera is a proprietary program. Cite real references or your claims will have to be rejected as bogus. Registry cleaners are as useful as gold plated lug nuts. You might feel good using them but in fact they offer no real advantages. You can also find equality worthless software that manages browser cookies. Big deal. With 4 gigs of RAM it’s silly to worry about swap files. I also haven’t used Windows XP in years. I’m not really interested in what problems stem from using outdated software.

    I’m an idiot for trying to use something the FOSS advocates rave and gloat about so much? They told me how much better it is than Aero in every possible way. If Compiz is known not to work, what does? I never had any compatibility problems with Aero, don’t have to disable it to run games, and it gives me a smooth, tear-free display that I prefer without odd glitches, speed issues, and crashes. It’s a shame Linux can’t deliver that. I tried KDE4 but it always told me I didn’t have a compatible 3D card. No surprise there. In fact, I hadn’t installed any drivers at all before the kernel update and the X server crash happened on a previous Linux system without Compiz ever installed. Please try other ways to pin the blame on me though.

    “Seen this on All OS’s. Common in fact on all.”

    No, I don’t at all find this to be common on Windows or any other OS I’ve used. With Linux, because the GUI is a separate afterthought, it seems delivering a notification of a program crash is a difficult thing. Maybe this is why some Linux users prefer running programs from a console.

    Which brings me back to the point I made for Richard. I first tried Linux over 10 years ago for the same reason most computer enthusiasts do: I was told how awesome it was by its supporters. Yet, without the feeling of moral superiority that comes from using FOSS software and a personal grudge against Microsoft, what I see is not so great at all. Windows, while imperfect like all computer hardware and software, provides a better computing experience for me than Linux ever did. As a former Amiga user I was as anti-Microsoft as anyone could be, but then I grew up.

  17. Richard Chapman says:

    Ah, gee Robert, I was just getting started. I accumulated a number of gems in forty years as a professional musician. But I will bring the discussion back to technology.

    I bought a TRS-80 Model PC-2 Pocket Computer with the manual for 5$ USD about 10 years ago at a garage sale (Remember those?). They are going for about $25 now on e-bay (for similar configuration). So some technology doesn’t turn to junk completely in a few years. So Contrarian can hang on to his quad 4 smoker or whatever it is he is using at the moment (literally) and maybe, just maybe he could sell it at a garage sale and it will become the liability of someone else.

  18. Contrarian says:

    Well, #pogson, this thread has wandered far from any meaningful use and I will have to admit that I was too nettled by #chapman’s snide remarks to maintain any sense of balance. I will make it a point to refrain from so wasting any bandwidth in the future.

    Sorry about that.

    • 75 Contrarian Aug 9th, 2011 at 9:13 am Edit
      “worth is measured in ways other than money.”

      All the poor people say that, #chapman.

    So, Contrarian has implied that Chapman is poor and somehow his argument is not valuable…

    • 78 Richard Chapman Aug 9th, 2011 at 1:36 pm Edit
      “All the poor people say that, #chapman.”

      You make yourself out to be the expert. Tell me what a 1961 Gibson SG Special is worth today. I paid $225 USD for it, about the same price as a netbook. How much would that netbook be worth in 10 years or so?

    Chapman replies suggesting that he is not poor, and

    • 80 Contrarian Aug 9th, 2011 at 8:43 pm Edit
      Good grief, #chapman! I cannot imagine a sillier goose than you seem to be. You first pronounce that “worth is measured in ways other than money” and then in almost your next breath you present the notion that your guitar is worth a lot of money? Try for some minimal consistency in your grab-bag of philosophies; it would give your prose a better read.

    Contrarian doesn’t get it! Get some exercise, Contrarian, your brain needs oxygen.

  19. Contrarian says:

    “Care to enlighten all as to what your point is?”

    #chapman, alas, has no point. He vows that true worth is measured in things other than money and then brags of the monetary values of his old guitars. Apparently he has some difficulty in seeing any sort of conflict that doesn’t involve degrading the efforts of Microsoft.

    His more immediate thesis is that antique guitars are likely to hold monetary value whereas computers will not. That is likely to be a valid notion, given the sort of nostalgia that affects old guitar players, but isn’t really pertinent to any interesting discussion and certainly not much of a prop for his minimalism voiced in regard to technology matters.

    His only purpose here seems to be to act as a d**k.

  20. oldman says:

    “Try a 1964 (pre CBS black-face) Fender Vibro Champ Amp. I paid $50 at a Garage sale”

    I have a small collection of 78 Rpm records that are rare as hell, but I cant use them to surf the internet Mr. Chapman, But assuming in 10 years that I can hack that Netbook to support IPv6, It may still be able to surf the internet, which you AMP cant do either.

    BTW I’m not going to speculate what you point was as I dont wish to put words in your mouth.

    Care to enlighten all as to what your point is?

  21. Minix was the build platform only. You cannot make an OS in a high-level language without something running under the editors and compilers. Minix was not cloned.
    “Torvalds used and appreciated MINIX, however, his design deviated from the MINIX architecture in significant ways, most notably by employing a monolithic kernel instead of a microkernel.”
    see Wikipedia – Minix and Linux

    That would be some trick to clone a microkernel and end up with a macrokernel…

    In Linus’ words:
    “The original gcc I used was the minix gcc (1.37.1) by Alan W Black (and
    somebody.. forgotten who?), which did some very ugly things in order to
    handle floating point. I used that to compile gcc-1.40 for minix, with
    patches by Bruce Evans to clean up the floating point handling and some
    of my own patches

    I wasn’t able to compile binaries under linux until version 0.10
    or so – all the major first binaries (notably bash) were crosscompiled
    from minix.”

    see Chicken or Egg?

    The release notes for linux .01 are here. They itemize the similarities and differences between Linux and Minix.

    The date on the directory holding Linux .12 is 1993-6-23 but the date of the files in the 0.11 tar.gz are 1991-12-8 so Minix was out of the picture entirely after the first few months.

    Don’t spread the FUD. Linus wrote stuff from scratch or used Free Software as much as he could at the start and none of Minix remained after a little while, even in the development system. Bootstrapping would be a much better term than cloning. Minix was used as the development system and not much more.

  22. Richard Chapman says:

    Try a 1964 (pre CBS black-face) Fender Vibro Champ Amp. I paid $50 at a Garage sale.

    Blather on about that.

  23. I think that is true of the USA. For some reason there are a lot of people who think you have to pay more than someone else to get what they have. “Keeping ahead of the Joneses” comes to mind. I like to go by the numbers and maximize price/performance. For example, CPUs more or less can produce according to their clockspeed X cores and/or memory bandwidth. In Intel’s price lists you can see the price/MHz spike when you go from last year’s models to this year’s. You are far better off to buy five $200 CPUs than one CPU for $1000 that has the throughput of two of those $200 CPUs. They can be spare parts or power additional systems. For most purposes a 400MHz thin client is plenty good enough and you can buy the whole motherboard, populated for about $100. My favourite supplier, NCIX, sells a lot of high-end systems but I usually buy last year’s models in clearances or special deals and I build wonderful systems. Unfortunately, most people do not have the inclination to lift the hood and check out what they are buying by the numbers or not. The same thing is happening with smart thingies. The early adopters are paying top dollar and the rest of the world can buy things at a serious discount next year. Every time prices come down $100, millions more can buy the things. The OEMs are businesses and maximize their profits this way. Good prices come to those who wait.

  24. oe says:

    This is a good site:

    “Seven Signs that You Have Been Brainwashed by Microsoft”

    http://linuxmigrante.blogspot.com/2011/08/seven-signs-that-you-have-been.html

    It’s funny but the comment that Linux should charge has more truth to it, if it was 1.5X the cost of the other IS a bet there would be a large chunk of people that would “have to have it”. What is “free” [in cost] too often is regarded as “cheap” [in quality]. Definitely not true but there’s no Madison Avenue budget to build the auro of exclusivity.

  25. Contrarian says:

    Good grief, #chapman! I cannot imagine a sillier goose than you seem to be. You first pronounce that “worth is measured in ways other than money” and then in almost your next breath you present the notion that your guitar is worth a lot of money? Try for some minimal consistency in your grab-bag of philosophies; it would give your prose a better read.

    Presumably your guitar is valuable, else your whole post is nonsense. But why is it valuable? Answer, because someone with more money than sense is willing to pay a lot for it as a nostalgic antique. Or are you saying that the guitars being produced today by Gibson are deliberately defective in some way?

    By assumming that the guitar is valuable simply due to age and grace implies that you recognize that things have value to some people beyond their

  26. Ivan says:

    “Google finds 3.9million links for “registry cleaner”. All that non-free software development can’t have been for naught, can it?”

    There’s a sucker born every minute. This phrase also explains why you seem to believe FOSS solves every problem, when it doesn’t.

    “While Linux may have been POSIX it was not a copy of anything.”

    Linux was a clone of Minux.

  27. Richard Chapman says:

    “All the poor people say that, #chapman.”

    You make yourself out to be the expert. Tell me what a 1961 Gibson SG Special is worth today. I paid $225 USD for it, about the same price as a netbook. How much would that netbook be worth in 10 years or so?

  28. oldman says:

    “Yes, this I know “oldman” but worth is measured in ways other than money.”

    Yes I am truly shallow Mr. Chapman, I really don’t neet to pay that mortgage support a family, etc.

    Give me a break!

  29. The big system I installed went into a $28million school. They weren’t poor, just misguided about the value of IT. They could easily have afforded a $500K system if they had budgeted correctly from day one instead of leaving IT as an afterthought. The system they got is the envy of folks who visit the school from other places. They don’t care that it’s not that other OS but that there are PCs everywhere and they all work quickly. That performance is worth more than price/money. With a tiny $100K budget they got double what they would have had with that other OS. With XP and no server they could have had the same number of clients but instead they got the clients, a cluster of powerful servers, a gigabit/s network and peripherals everywhere.

  30. Contrarian says:

    “worth is measured in ways other than money.”

    All the poor people say that, #chapman.

  31. Richard Chapman says:

    “Besides Mr. Chapman, knowing both windows and Linux pays quite well.”

    Yes, this I know “oldman” but worth is measured in ways other than money.

  32. Richard Chapman says:

    “I earn a living to be sure, but you get the benefit of my charming self for free, Mr. Chapman you lucky soul.”

    I’m so honored.

  33. Richard Chapman says:

    “Want to avoid this? Then install only from official repositories.”

    Good advice.

  34. oldman says:

    “t was people like Stallman who saw that this was leading to fragmentation and other bad issues including the effect of greed. Coder gets paid X program company gets paid Y. Different goes into a stack of fat cats.”

    SO better to join the commune and give up all hope of making real money, Mr. oiaohm. You may wish to do so, I do not.

    “The 4 code freedoms were about making sure that remained possible for programmers.”

    Who says that there is a right to see code Mr. oiaohm? Those people who discovered that there was money to be made selling closed source code had a right to do so.

    At any rate, the source code available community that was part of the R&D world of computing continued on in spite of the change in the function of computers and does so to this day. There is in fact a wide range of “Universityware” some of which is freeware, some GPL and some that is copyright by the education institutions. Source code available is practiced by choice by these institutions, nit by fiat from some organization.

    “Notice what you have admitted Closed source is a newer idea. FOSS is the old idea that will not die.”

    I have no problem with source code available, I have a real problem with anyone who thinks that it is the only way to go. Fortunately the marketplace has spoken, and closed source because of superior function and feature, still wins where it counts for me.

  35. Linux Apostate says:

    “I have never heard of configs getting messed up by installing FLOSS from outside repositories. Usually that just installs the binaries and libraries and leaves documentation/RTFM.”

    Right, so bad packages don’t exist? But they do. As I said, I can easily create one.

    A bad Windows program could mess up your registry, a bad Debian package could mess up /etc.

    Want to avoid this? Then install only from official repositories.

  36. oiaohm says:

    oldman

    “Freedom of speech and expression” Is what Richard Stallman was fighting for.

    The 4 code freedoms were about making sure that remained possible for programmers.

    “Time everybody was beginning to realize that there was money to be made in software.”

    It was people like Stallman who saw that this was leading to fragmentation and other bad issues including the effect of greed. Coder gets paid X program company gets paid Y. Different goes into a stack of fat cats.

    Notice what you have admitted Closed source is a newer idea. FOSS is the old idea that will not die.

  37. oldman says:

    “Oh, you can dish it out but you can’t take it? What a pansy you are “oldman”. By the way, what did I paint you as?”

    ….

    Touche Mr. Chapman, we are back to our word games eh. As you wish

    “Are you (not by Microsoft of course but by someone)?”

    I earn a living to be sure, but you get the benefit of my charming self for free, Mr. Chapman you lucky soul.

  38. oldman wrote, “The community did was nothing more that make a copy, and at times IMHO a bad one at that, of what had already been developed.”

    While Linux may have been POSIX it was not a copy of anything.

    Apache was based on NCSA HTTPD but has been completely rewritten.

    MySQL was written from scratch and is not a copy of anything.

    PHP was written from scratch.

    The GNU tools perform the same tasks as many UNIX-like operating systems but they were mostly not a copy of anything but parts of BSD.

    GNOME, KDE and X were all written from scratch.

    It is dangerous to confuse creating software that follows some standard with copying. It is not copying when I write in English even though someone else made the grammar and vocabulary.

  39. oldman says:

    “No wonder you’re so confused. Try just sticking with one.”

    Ah yes, back to content free snark again. Not unexpected.

    Why would I want to do that Mr. Chapman, I get the best of both worlds. Besides Mr. Chapman, knowing both windows and Linux pays quite well.

  40. Richard Chapman says:

    “And all else, including your attempts to paint me as something that I am not, are pure bushwah.”

    Oh, you can dish it out but you can’t take it? What a pansy you are “oldman”. By the way, what did I paint you as?

    “Are you perhaps insinuating that I am payed by Microsoft to post here?”

    Are you (not by Microsoft of course but by someone)?

  41. oldman says:

    “Mr. Stallman did not invent the 4 freedoms. Mr. Stallman made them into an enforced license. BSD predates Stallman. FOSS predates Stallman. Basically Stallman has been come a figure head for a lot older movement. Stallman marks the line between the older and newer movement. The older Movement had no idea of closed source. It was just something you did not do. Stallman is resistance figure head against the change from FOSS to Closed.”

    Mr. oiaohm, I am less than a year younger than Mr. Stallman, and I have been working with source code available systems since I first programmed under a stripped down version of Bell Labs Unix that ran on a custom built Dual floppy DEC LSI-11/02 based system in the very early 80’s. I have done extensive work on Unix and BSD based systems until I switched over to IBM AIX in the early 90’s where I stayed until our shop moved to Red Hat Linux. I actually WORKED with the same type of people about 10 years after Stallman did, though by that Time everybody was beginning to realize that there was money to be made in software. We also had the Stallman tyoe geeks who objected, but none became as famous as this joker.

    Calling Richard Stallman a “freedom Fighter” is IMHO an insult to real freedoms, much the same way that characterizing Stallmans 4 freedoms are an insult to a lot of people who died defending the real 4 freedoms which are:

    Freedom of speech and expression
    Freedom of worship
    Freedom from want
    Freedom from fear

    As far as the contention that we depend on the FOSS is concerned, That is only a small part of the picture, what we depend was actully built by the millions of US taxpayer dollars spent in subsidizing the research on and the development of the Internet. The community did was nothing more that make a copy, and at times IMHO a bad one at that, of what had already been developed.

  42. Richard Chapman says:

    “I work with both windows and Linux on a daily basis.”

    No wonder you’re so confused. Try just sticking with one.

  43. Richard Chapman says:

    “Windows such a PITA for you, assuming it is technical as opposed to odealigical.”

    You’re jumping the gun a little bit on that one “oldman”. That’s the label not due for tree weeks.

  44. Many folks install stuff that corrupts their registries. I have never heard of configs getting messed up by installing FLOSS from outside repositories. Usually that just installs the binaries and libraries and leaves documentation/RTFM.

  45. oiaohm says:

    Yonah “KHTML came 2 years after the initial release of Opera.” True. But 3 years after its release it started using parts from KHTML. Before that it was using a open source javascript processing engine. Complete life of what parts Opera has been using is interesting.

    Problem here Yonah I have been around for a long time. I have seen where a lot of developers got there starts.

    “Show me any solid proof that registry maintenance software provides any measurable increase in either speed or stability, other than the claims made by those producing said software.”

    Main issue is registry file fragmentation. http://ultradefrag.sourceforge.net/ is what you have to use with windows 7. Reason the old pagedefrag that use to work with XP and before Microsoft has not updated they also have not integrated pagedefrag feature into their normal defrag tool. So yes MS have left you hanging. Yes when Windows gets low on memory it pushs registry out of memory so requiring to reload it latter from disk. So more fragmented the registry files are the more damaging to performance it is. Thinking Windows has the habit of pushing it to disk when it did not need to.

    Yes Registry cleaning tools can boost performance by reducing search time due to less keys to search threw. Of course they come with risks. Reason you don’t know what depends on what in a registry. Linux stack of files in a directory are a lot simpler to clean safely.

    Running Compiz proves idiot. Compiz is known not to work. But if people want to run flashy and have pain so be it.

    “I’ve seen plenty of other crap. I’ve had a system throw me to a blinking logon prompt after a kernel update gone bad”
    Yes seen worse after windows update as well. But Linux is normally more recoverable. Because you can boot back to the old kernel. Windows boot up blue screen of death due to incompatible driver.

    Reason for back to logon prompt is video card driver not installed. Most likely you installed video card driver not through the distribution repo method so not align with updates. Same with people running windows machines without installing the motherboard disk and wondering why they are having problems. Or worst updating to SP2 XP only to find out there motherboard drivers have been updated for SP2 and should have been installed first so their computer will boot.

    “I’ve had the X server crash.”
    Running compiz were you not. Driver most likely closed source Nvidia or ATI. Due to being DRI1 tech not DRI2 are in fact compiz incompatible. Works by pure luck. Reason why I hate items like Ubuntu flashly instead of stable.

    “I’ve seen programs crash silently with no indication they were terminated.” Seen this on All OS’s. Common in fact on all.

    Mr. Stallman did not invent the 4 freedoms. Mr. Stallman made them into an enforced license. BSD predates Stallman. FOSS predates Stallman. Basically Stallman has been come a figure head for a lot older movement. Stallman marks the line between the older and newer movement. The older Movement had no idea of closed source. It was just something you did not do. Stallman is resistance figure head against the change from FOSS to Closed.

    Really today shut down everything that is depending on something FOSS and the ideas of the 4 freedoms most of the internet would not be there.

    Oldman you are not old enough so you think the 4 freedoms started with Stallman. Not that he is just a Resistance fighter against a change.

  46. oldman says:

    “As for something for nothing? What do you think I’m doing right now? I don’t get paid like some you guys do, but counteracting FUD is just one of the ways of giving back to the community that gave us this wonderful environment of free and open source software. ”

    Oh, my, my,my Mt. Chapman. Are you perhaps insinuating that I am payed by Microsoft to post here? Now whose doing the wishing eh?

    If you want to believe that I am a

    PaidMicrosoftShillTM

    Go right ahead. It isnt true, but , hey, it sounds good.

    It actually somewhat refreshing to hear something out of you other than snarky comments. It does make you seem less of a stereotype. I would be intereested in knowing know what make Windows such a PITA for you, assuming it is technical as opposed to odealigical.

    At any rate…

    “You keep shoveling the same crap “oldman” but your precious world of Microsoft is still shrinking.”

    I keep shoveling the same crap because I dislike the dishonest crap that YOU and others like you shovel Mr. Chapman.

    As far as Microsoft shrinking is concerned, all I can say is …

    Meh. I’ve watched a number of “giants” of the industry fade away as they were blindsided and then swamped by the next best thing. What I can tell you is that long before that time comes, the companies whose software I use will have long since come out with versions of their software on the next new thing, And if it meets my needs and the price is right, I’ll be there cash in hand, and windows will become the next OS/2.

    Because in the end its all about the applications.

    And remember Mr. Chapman, Unlike you whose head is firmly up the penguins butt, I work with both windows and Linux on a daily basis. I know where the bodies are buried I know what both OS’s and their associated applications can and can not do. Linux as a server does quite a bit for me, Linux desktop applications do not. Thats what it comes down to.

    And all else, including your attempts to paint me as something that I am not, are pure bushwah.

  47. Richard Chapman says:

    There you go “oldman” wishing me into some kind of mold to suit your need. No, I’m not a cheapskate. I just don’t like throwing money at Microsoft. I’ve already thrown more money than I’d care to admit at Wintel. They don’t need any more of my money. I’m sure you and your buddies here will more than make up for my absence. I can get along just fine on FLOSS and a few proprietary drivers. As for something for nothing? What do you think I’m doing right now? I don’t get paid like some you guys do, but counteracting FUD is just one of the ways of giving back to the community that gave us this wonderful environment of free and open source software.

    If I was a cheapskate there’s plenty of freeware and shareware to run on Windows. There’s no need to use GNU/Linux if it’s money you’re worried about. And it wasn’t ideology that started me on GNU/Linux either. It was the fact that Microsoft’s Windows had become such a PITA that I began to look elsewhere. It was while I was looking at a forum of people showing their desktops that I realized how configurable GNU/Linux was. That’s what finally “sold” me.

    So this week I’m a cheapskate. Next week I’ll be a Microsoft hater. After that, a zealot. Then, an ideologue. Then maybe, I’m jealous of Bill Gates. Then you’ll start all over with cheapskate. You keep shoveling the same crap “oldman” but your precious world of Microsoft is still shrinking.

  48. oldman says:

    “Yonah, so you can safely shut down all the elements of the Internet that were created under the four freedoms umbrella and you would be running along just dandy, wouldn’t you? Or does that count as one of those minor things that don’t really matter?”

    Actually he would be doing just fine. TCP/IP and the internet in a much more limited form, was already in place as the DARPANet when Mr. Stallman was still actually In college. You may want to take a look at

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

    Give this reality It is a sure bet that we would be running on the internet even if Mr. Stallman hadn’t existed.

    As far as you other nonsensical statements are concerned, Yonah has pretty much said what I would have. The only thing That I will add is this.

    You can talk until you are blue in the fact about the merits of “free Software” but as far as I am concerned, their only merit in the end is that they are free for cheapskates like you Mr. Chapman, who in the end seem only to want to get something for nothing. Those of us who understand Mr. Stallmans screed for the bushwah that it is, will continue to give value for value.

  49. Linux Apostate says:

    Ah, so you wouldn’t install software unless it had been certified by Debian?

    But Microsoft has a certification process too, and they’re not going to certify software that corrupts the registry and renders machines unbootable. There are rules that software must conform to – exactly like the rules for acceptable Debian packages.

    So you are comparing incomparable things, specifically (1) certified Debian packages from an official repository, and (2) uncertified third-party Windows programs from a random website.

    Once again, this is just FUD.

  50. How could that be? I have it on good authority that “commercial” software is the real deal.

  51. Debian has a policy against that and they follow their policies. How many such vulnerabilities do you find in the Debian repositories?

  52. Linux Apostate says:

    Actually you could quite easily create a Debian package capable of making a system unbootable on installation or removal. Would you like a demonstration? 🙂

    Naturally a Windows application could do the same thing. This is why we Windows users keep backups.

  53. Linux Apostate says:

    That was in the second article, which looks very much like an advertisement to promote a particular piece of software.

    But you most likely haven’t seen anything like that before. One advantage of (desktop) Linux is that you never run into the sort of scam where a dodgy software house writes some dodgy application, and then creates a number of “independent” review sites to promote it and raise its Google rank. That’s what seems to have happened here. One big clue is in the WHOIS data for that site. Users of mass-market platforms (including Linux in its Android form) are obliged to research software very carefully before installing anything.

  54. One of the bars was at 11% improvement.

    One of the ways that other OS can fail is that an installer wrecks the registry so the system will not boot or whatever. The usual fix for that is to restore to some point in time. This only works if the backup/restore-point exists. One way or another the registry can be corrupted and it all falls down. A “cleaner” is unlikely to be able to fix that mess but it can reduce the size of the problem. An indexed database is a useful concept but it is an accident waiting to happen if installers can manipulate the database willy-nilly. GNU/Linux is a much more sane system. The installed package does not manipulate anything but its own configuration in a system like Debian GNU/Linux.

  55. Linux Apostate says:

    Your first link shows no improvement at all. I know it says “A nice improvement , almost 1000 additional point after single mouse click”, a quality of English typical of the whole article, but this just demonstrates that the reviewer has no idea how to perform an experiment or interpret a result, because the 1000 figure is actually only a 1.5% change. So small that variations due to other system activity are most likely to be responsible for it.

    And the second link? Quite obviously set up to advertise one specific registry cleaner. Would you trust a review site whose operator’s details are secret? Try a WHOIS. Why don’t the details match the company listed on the web page? Unlike the first web page, this is clearly a scam.

    I still do not believe that registry cleaners are necessary for modern Windows (i.e. Win2K onwards). This is just FUD.

    All registry cleaning software is scamware. It is snake oil, intended to fool the stupid and ill-informed, just like the “psychic software” available for purchase from the first website.

  56. Yonah wrote, “Show me any solid proof that registry maintenance software provides any measurable increase in either speed or stability, other than the claims made by those producing said software.”

  57. Here’s a benchmarking of several different registry cleaners. They did affect performance of games. I suspect starting applications/booting would be more strongly affected.
  58. Here’s another.
  59. Google finds 3.9million links for “registry cleaner”. All that non-free software development can’t have been for naught, can it?