A respected commentator, oldman, writing of the four freedoms of Free Software wrote, “As IMHO worthless as they are.” The four freedoms are:
- The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
- The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
- The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
- The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
Those who do not value access to the source code could be excused for not valuing freedoms 1 and 3. However the values of freedoms 0 and 2 are huge.
Without freedom 0, the software is all but useless and a licence that prevents you from running the code would be bizarre but that’s what people often get with that other OS when they obtain the software pre-installed on an OEM’s PC. The EULA (End User Licence Agreement) prevents you from running the code under all kinds of circumstances:
- lost/ripped COA (Certificate of Authenticity). I have encountered many of those in schools where idle hands of students do evil.
- change of motherboard. You may not run that other OS with any other motherboard than the one that shipped on your PC.
- sale of the PC. The software has to go with the PC or it cannot be run.
- connection to more than 10 “devices”. Sheesh. If there are 12 PCs on your LAN the boss cannot share his blurb of the day by SMB/CIFS.
So, “POOF!”, the licence for which you recently paid ~$100 when you bought your PC is now worthless. You could try selling that $100 box for $200 but you likely will have no way to recoup the loss by selling the PC. So, freedom 0 can really save you money and headaches.
Freedom 2, the freedom to make and distribute copies, is obviously valuable as whatever the cost of acquisition of the software, you can make N copies for something like cost/N making the software even more valuable. M$ gets of the order of $50 per licence and the OEM gets of the order of $50 per licence so the consumer pays of the order of $100 per licence with that other OS. That is $100 X N for N exercises of Freedom 2. That’s real money in your pocket/budget that you can spend on other things like hardware, networks, documentation, training, etc., valuable stuff.
So, oldman is wrong. The four freedoms have great value even for those not accessing the source code. For those who do access the source code, the other two freedoms are priceless. M$ and others charge huge prices for that freedom and only a few select “partners” are eligible. Where I worked last year we ran GNU/Linux on 100 clients and servers so the four freedoms were worth something like $10K for the OS and likely more for the applications and servery. I value the four freedoms a lot just in terms of money.
When you consider the time/labour the four freedoms save, the value is much more than that listed above:
- Because the software may be copied without extra documentation/budgeting, the owner of the PC can update the OS and the applications together with a single package manager. Not having to account with the budget and a dozen suppliers really saves a lot of labour.
- Because the software may be copied, I can have a local repository and install over the network on a new PC, a repaired PC, a new hard drive, etc. over the LAN at very high speed with no need to buy a CD or licence for each machine.
- Because possession of the software includes the licence, I do not need to authenticate to M$’s servers or type/scan in an authentication code, or document/explain/plead that my PCs and software are properly/legally licensed. My licence does not disappear if a sticker is damaged or a CD disappears.
Finally, I believe, with reason, that Free Software source code being visible produces better software because bugs are more easily fixed and features added more easily, FLOSS has greater value than that other OS and many closed-source applications for it. Much non-FREE software has tons of features that include some that oldman and others appreciate but just the plethora of features makes the software more prone to bugs and more difficult to use, a negative value.
So, for many reasons, Free Software does have a lot of value and most of that value is a result of the four freedoms. A good place to start enjoying the value of Free/Libre Open Source Software is Debian where you can learn about and obtain Free Software for the cost of downloading.
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Yonah wrote, “Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems Linux has no universal standard for sending error messages to a user’s preferred desktop environment.”
Most programmes spit something out on stdio or error. That’s what I do: “writeln(‘this is wrong:…, Quitting.”). If you want to send messages, to the GUI GNOME or KDE have methods that work. They pop open a little window… Zenity does that.
“If the user does not see the window close he will find it closed when he looks for it.”
Good point. Why buy a smoke detector? Seeing your home reduced to a pile of smoldering ashes will give you a clear indication your house was on fire.
Robert, no matter if the application has an open window displayed on the screen, minimized on the taskbar, running as a tray icon, or completely invisible, not notifying the user of a program being terminated due to an error is unacceptable for a modern operating system. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems Linux has no universal standard for sending error messages to a user’s preferred desktop environment.
Also, all of the diagnostic methods you mention can also be used on Windows in the extremely unlikely event a program terminates without notification.
“Yes, I’m sure it does, but you love to feel the heat blowing on you ankles when you do. Go on, admit “oldman”.”
Mr. Chapman, I really don’t care about anything other than sizing my hardware to support the applications that I want to use. If I overbuild, it is because I know that if I do so the software that I wish to use just works and I can get on with music.
Your insinuation is IMHO bushwah that says more about you than it does me.
“What turns me on Mr. chapman is to be able to put my ideas down on the digital equivalent of score paper…”
Yes, I’m sure it does, but you love to feel the heat blowing on you ankles when you do. Go on, admit “oldman”.
Yes, #2. Music and computers do have some kind of relationship. I was once hired for a job over the other applicants because I was a musician.
Got to go. I’ll scan the rest of your post later.
“So, the folks who grumble about GNU/Linux or FLOSS here are a pretty small minority”
As are the ones who are going over the top to praise them, #pogson, I would rank it at about even. Anyone who doesn’t bother to reply can only be counted as Undecided.
“So now you’re a musician “oldman”?”
Yep, Mr. Chapman I am. I studied music composition and got into computers because I wanted to get into what was called at the time “computer music”. The Computer music thing turned into the carreer that pays the bills, but I am still a composer, albeit now an amateur one.
“I don’t care about what you care about. Blazing hot processors don’t turn me on. Loads of memory don’t tickle my fancy. Whatever is the coolest, hottest, most advanced piece of personal technology you can own today will be a piece of junk in five years or less. It’s a rat race on a tread mill, and you’re the rat.”
What turns me on Mr. chapman is to be able to put my ideas down on the digital equivalent of score paper, then push a button and hear the a performance of those ideas performed by a digital version of the ensemble that I hear in my head. THAT is satisfaction sir.
The real point here is that I have what I want without having to play games with “technically satisfying” software that is Linux or FOSS. I just plunked my cash down and got down the the business at hand – composing.
Yes the hardware that I compose on will soon be passe. But I expect to be using it to compose music for a long time to come. And thats what counts.
So now you’re a musician “oldman”? If I mentioned I built pre-amps for recording consoles using GNU/Linux applications would you come back and tell me you finished the design of your latest guitar effects pedal on your netbook while riding home in a taxi?
By the way I don’t but a good friend of mine does and he uses a Mac, last I knew.
So we seem to be in this stupid battle of one-ups-man-ship. I don’t think you understand. I don’t care about what you care about. Blazing hot processors don’t turn me on. Loads of memory don’t tickle my fancy. Whatever is the coolest, hottest, most advanced piece of personal technology you can own today will be a piece of junk in five years or less. It’s a rat race on a tread mill, and you’re the rat.
“So, the folks who grumble about GNU/Linux or FLOSS here are a pretty small minority.”
Frankly, the vast majority of computer/internet users are not even a part of the debate, they just go a bout doing other stuff.
“You don’t know Linux “oldman”.”
And you do Mr. Musician.
“Linux isnt even in the running.”
You don’t know Linux “oldman”.
I take pleasure from making things work using GNU/Linux. My next project is likely to put my wife on a thin client. Her PC puts out too much heat for her office unless the air conditioner is on these days and it has an aluminium case that “sings”. She could also lose the UPS under her desk. I can either convert her machine to be her private terminal server or fix Beast and move her to a really powerful machine. Power in her hands could be dangerous…
oldman wrote, ““defending” Linux from the barbarian hordes”.
How many is a horde? One of the side effects of trying to diagnose this annoying out of memory problem is that I now have access to Apache’s logs. A bit of grep, sed, sort and uniq finds 1300 unique IPs in the access.log for the last month. 300 of them are from search engines. So, I guess a horde is about 1000 human visitors. I don’t think there are more than a dozen or so posting comments here, about 1%. So, the folks who grumble about GNU/Linux or FLOSS here are a pretty small minority.
“I came to use and stay with GNU/Linux because it’s more technically pleasing than anything from Microsoft. Any “moral” or “ideological” aspects are secondary.”
Technically pleasing Mr. Chapman?…..
hehehehehehehe..
An interesting observatio, IMHO
You sure sound like a zealot and Idealogue, and your hanging around here “defending” Linux from the barbarian hordes, whenm you could be doing something useful like jamming, strikes me a prime idealogues pose.
As they say “if it walks like a duck…”
Oh BTW, before I posted this, I spent time on the bus composing music using finale. The ensemble finale is driving is for a large ensemble which is loaded in memory on My portable PC which is As I sure you could guess a Quad core I7 Smoker (albeit a 1.77Ghz a modest one) with 16Gb of RAM. There is no need for external synthesizers, mixers, or whatever – It all resides in memory and comes with me so I can just sit back and compose where I have time.
Now thats technically pleasing, Mr. Chapman.
And the closest that I could come to doing it on qa *nix core would be to buy a Mac.
Linux isnt even in the running.
“Yet, without the feeling of moral superiority that comes from using FOSS software and a personal grudge against Microsoft, what I see is not so great at all.”
This business of “moral superiority” seems to be a recurring theme with you proprietary types. I came to use and stay with GNU/Linux because it’s more technically pleasing than anything from Microsoft. Any “moral” or “ideological” aspects are secondary. Could it be that you are coming from a feeling of moral inferiority? Somehow I doubt it but you are the ones broaching the subject, not us. If you don’t want to read about GNU/Linux and moral superiority, then don’t bring it up. I think I counted the word ideologue or one of its derivatives seven times on one of your kind’s posts. You seem to love the subject.
Yonah wrote, “With Linux, because the GUI is a separate afterthought, it seems delivering a notification of a program crash is a difficult thing.”
There are two cases, assuming one is using the GUI:
Normally, the user who sees his window disappear/close does not need to be notified because he already knows. If the user does not see the window close he will find it closed when he looks for it. In either case, the user has been notified and with the kind of priority he gives the application. If you want more there are many ways notifications can be done:
That will give you a Hell of a lot more information than that other OS gives a user.
Richard, I was referring to the idea that FOSS advocates must elevate all FOSS software to be above proprietary software in all possible ways. It’s how they can reject anything non-free and not feel as if their disadvantaged. Though I rarely find a FOSS application that beats a proprietary one, if it exits I use it. I don’t have to reject a particular program based on its license or development style. You and I are not so alike after all.
Oiaohm, regardless of how long you claim to have “been around” much of your information is inaccurate, lacks credibility, or is just plain goofy. Opera is a proprietary program. Cite real references or your claims will have to be rejected as bogus. Registry cleaners are as useful as gold plated lug nuts. You might feel good using them but in fact they offer no real advantages. You can also find equality worthless software that manages browser cookies. Big deal. With 4 gigs of RAM it’s silly to worry about swap files. I also haven’t used Windows XP in years. I’m not really interested in what problems stem from using outdated software.
I’m an idiot for trying to use something the FOSS advocates rave and gloat about so much? They told me how much better it is than Aero in every possible way. If Compiz is known not to work, what does? I never had any compatibility problems with Aero, don’t have to disable it to run games, and it gives me a smooth, tear-free display that I prefer without odd glitches, speed issues, and crashes. It’s a shame Linux can’t deliver that. I tried KDE4 but it always told me I didn’t have a compatible 3D card. No surprise there. In fact, I hadn’t installed any drivers at all before the kernel update and the X server crash happened on a previous Linux system without Compiz ever installed. Please try other ways to pin the blame on me though.
“Seen this on All OS’s. Common in fact on all.”
No, I don’t at all find this to be common on Windows or any other OS I’ve used. With Linux, because the GUI is a separate afterthought, it seems delivering a notification of a program crash is a difficult thing. Maybe this is why some Linux users prefer running programs from a console.
Which brings me back to the point I made for Richard. I first tried Linux over 10 years ago for the same reason most computer enthusiasts do: I was told how awesome it was by its supporters. Yet, without the feeling of moral superiority that comes from using FOSS software and a personal grudge against Microsoft, what I see is not so great at all. Windows, while imperfect like all computer hardware and software, provides a better computing experience for me than Linux ever did. As a former Amiga user I was as anti-Microsoft as anyone could be, but then I grew up.
Ah, gee Robert, I was just getting started. I accumulated a number of gems in forty years as a professional musician. But I will bring the discussion back to technology.
I bought a TRS-80 Model PC-2 Pocket Computer with the manual for 5$ USD about 10 years ago at a garage sale (Remember those?). They are going for about $25 now on e-bay (for similar configuration). So some technology doesn’t turn to junk completely in a few years. So Contrarian can hang on to his quad 4 smoker or whatever it is he is using at the moment (literally) and maybe, just maybe he could sell it at a garage sale and it will become the liability of someone else.
Well, #pogson, this thread has wandered far from any meaningful use and I will have to admit that I was too nettled by #chapman’s snide remarks to maintain any sense of balance. I will make it a point to refrain from so wasting any bandwidth in the future.
Sorry about that.
“worth is measured in ways other than money.”
All the poor people say that, #chapman.
So, Contrarian has implied that Chapman is poor and somehow his argument is not valuable…
“All the poor people say that, #chapman.”
You make yourself out to be the expert. Tell me what a 1961 Gibson SG Special is worth today. I paid $225 USD for it, about the same price as a netbook. How much would that netbook be worth in 10 years or so?
Chapman replies suggesting that he is not poor, and
Good grief, #chapman! I cannot imagine a sillier goose than you seem to be. You first pronounce that “worth is measured in ways other than money” and then in almost your next breath you present the notion that your guitar is worth a lot of money? Try for some minimal consistency in your grab-bag of philosophies; it would give your prose a better read.
Contrarian doesn’t get it! Get some exercise, Contrarian, your brain needs oxygen.
“Care to enlighten all as to what your point is?”
#chapman, alas, has no point. He vows that true worth is measured in things other than money and then brags of the monetary values of his old guitars. Apparently he has some difficulty in seeing any sort of conflict that doesn’t involve degrading the efforts of Microsoft.
His more immediate thesis is that antique guitars are likely to hold monetary value whereas computers will not. That is likely to be a valid notion, given the sort of nostalgia that affects old guitar players, but isn’t really pertinent to any interesting discussion and certainly not much of a prop for his minimalism voiced in regard to technology matters.
His only purpose here seems to be to act as a d**k.
“Try a 1964 (pre CBS black-face) Fender Vibro Champ Amp. I paid $50 at a Garage sale”
I have a small collection of 78 Rpm records that are rare as hell, but I cant use them to surf the internet Mr. Chapman, But assuming in 10 years that I can hack that Netbook to support IPv6, It may still be able to surf the internet, which you AMP cant do either.
BTW I’m not going to speculate what you point was as I dont wish to put words in your mouth.
Care to enlighten all as to what your point is?
Minix was the build platform only. You cannot make an OS in a high-level language without something running under the editors and compilers. Minix was not cloned.
“Torvalds used and appreciated MINIX, however, his design deviated from the MINIX architecture in significant ways, most notably by employing a monolithic kernel instead of a microkernel.”
see Wikipedia – Minix and Linux
That would be some trick to clone a microkernel and end up with a macrokernel…
In Linus’ words:
“The original gcc I used was the minix gcc (1.37.1) by Alan W Black (and
somebody.. forgotten who?), which did some very ugly things in order to
handle floating point. I used that to compile gcc-1.40 for minix, with
patches by Bruce Evans to clean up the floating point handling and some
of my own patches
…
I wasn’t able to compile binaries under linux until version 0.10
or so – all the major first binaries (notably bash) were crosscompiled
from minix.”
see Chicken or Egg?
The release notes for linux .01 are here. They itemize the similarities and differences between Linux and Minix.
The date on the directory holding Linux .12 is 1993-6-23 but the date of the files in the 0.11 tar.gz are 1991-12-8 so Minix was out of the picture entirely after the first few months.
Don’t spread the FUD. Linus wrote stuff from scratch or used Free Software as much as he could at the start and none of Minix remained after a little while, even in the development system. Bootstrapping would be a much better term than cloning. Minix was used as the development system and not much more.
Try a 1964 (pre CBS black-face) Fender Vibro Champ Amp. I paid $50 at a Garage sale.
Blather on about that.
I think that is true of the USA. For some reason there are a lot of people who think you have to pay more than someone else to get what they have. “Keeping ahead of the Joneses” comes to mind. I like to go by the numbers and maximize price/performance. For example, CPUs more or less can produce according to their clockspeed X cores and/or memory bandwidth. In Intel’s price lists you can see the price/MHz spike when you go from last year’s models to this year’s. You are far better off to buy five $200 CPUs than one CPU for $1000 that has the throughput of two of those $200 CPUs. They can be spare parts or power additional systems. For most purposes a 400MHz thin client is plenty good enough and you can buy the whole motherboard, populated for about $100. My favourite supplier, NCIX, sells a lot of high-end systems but I usually buy last year’s models in clearances or special deals and I build wonderful systems. Unfortunately, most people do not have the inclination to lift the hood and check out what they are buying by the numbers or not. The same thing is happening with smart thingies. The early adopters are paying top dollar and the rest of the world can buy things at a serious discount next year. Every time prices come down $100, millions more can buy the things. The OEMs are businesses and maximize their profits this way. Good prices come to those who wait.
This is a good site:
“Seven Signs that You Have Been Brainwashed by Microsoft”
http://linuxmigrante.blogspot.com/2011/08/seven-signs-that-you-have-been.html
It’s funny but the comment that Linux should charge has more truth to it, if it was 1.5X the cost of the other IS a bet there would be a large chunk of people that would “have to have it”. What is “free” [in cost] too often is regarded as “cheap” [in quality]. Definitely not true but there’s no Madison Avenue budget to build the auro of exclusivity.
Good grief, #chapman! I cannot imagine a sillier goose than you seem to be. You first pronounce that “worth is measured in ways other than money” and then in almost your next breath you present the notion that your guitar is worth a lot of money? Try for some minimal consistency in your grab-bag of philosophies; it would give your prose a better read.
Presumably your guitar is valuable, else your whole post is nonsense. But why is it valuable? Answer, because someone with more money than sense is willing to pay a lot for it as a nostalgic antique. Or are you saying that the guitars being produced today by Gibson are deliberately defective in some way?
By assumming that the guitar is valuable simply due to age and grace implies that you recognize that things have value to some people beyond their
“Google finds 3.9million links for “registry cleaner”. All that non-free software development can’t have been for naught, can it?”
There’s a sucker born every minute. This phrase also explains why you seem to believe FOSS solves every problem, when it doesn’t.
“While Linux may have been POSIX it was not a copy of anything.”
Linux was a clone of Minux.
“All the poor people say that, #chapman.”
You make yourself out to be the expert. Tell me what a 1961 Gibson SG Special is worth today. I paid $225 USD for it, about the same price as a netbook. How much would that netbook be worth in 10 years or so?
“Yes, this I know “oldman” but worth is measured in ways other than money.”
Yes I am truly shallow Mr. Chapman, I really don’t neet to pay that mortgage support a family, etc.
Give me a break!
The big system I installed went into a $28million school. They weren’t poor, just misguided about the value of IT. They could easily have afforded a $500K system if they had budgeted correctly from day one instead of leaving IT as an afterthought. The system they got is the envy of folks who visit the school from other places. They don’t care that it’s not that other OS but that there are PCs everywhere and they all work quickly. That performance is worth more than price/money. With a tiny $100K budget they got double what they would have had with that other OS. With XP and no server they could have had the same number of clients but instead they got the clients, a cluster of powerful servers, a gigabit/s network and peripherals everywhere.
“worth is measured in ways other than money.”
All the poor people say that, #chapman.
“Besides Mr. Chapman, knowing both windows and Linux pays quite well.”
Yes, this I know “oldman” but worth is measured in ways other than money.
“I earn a living to be sure, but you get the benefit of my charming self for free, Mr. Chapman you lucky soul.”
I’m so honored.
“Want to avoid this? Then install only from official repositories.”
Good advice.
“t was people like Stallman who saw that this was leading to fragmentation and other bad issues including the effect of greed. Coder gets paid X program company gets paid Y. Different goes into a stack of fat cats.”
SO better to join the commune and give up all hope of making real money, Mr. oiaohm. You may wish to do so, I do not.
“The 4 code freedoms were about making sure that remained possible for programmers.”
Who says that there is a right to see code Mr. oiaohm? Those people who discovered that there was money to be made selling closed source code had a right to do so.
At any rate, the source code available community that was part of the R&D world of computing continued on in spite of the change in the function of computers and does so to this day. There is in fact a wide range of “Universityware” some of which is freeware, some GPL and some that is copyright by the education institutions. Source code available is practiced by choice by these institutions, nit by fiat from some organization.
“Notice what you have admitted Closed source is a newer idea. FOSS is the old idea that will not die.”
I have no problem with source code available, I have a real problem with anyone who thinks that it is the only way to go. Fortunately the marketplace has spoken, and closed source because of superior function and feature, still wins where it counts for me.
“I have never heard of configs getting messed up by installing FLOSS from outside repositories. Usually that just installs the binaries and libraries and leaves documentation/RTFM.”
Right, so bad packages don’t exist? But they do. As I said, I can easily create one.
A bad Windows program could mess up your registry, a bad Debian package could mess up /etc.
Want to avoid this? Then install only from official repositories.
oldman
“Freedom of speech and expression” Is what Richard Stallman was fighting for.
The 4 code freedoms were about making sure that remained possible for programmers.
“Time everybody was beginning to realize that there was money to be made in software.”
It was people like Stallman who saw that this was leading to fragmentation and other bad issues including the effect of greed. Coder gets paid X program company gets paid Y. Different goes into a stack of fat cats.
Notice what you have admitted Closed source is a newer idea. FOSS is the old idea that will not die.
“Oh, you can dish it out but you can’t take it? What a pansy you are “oldman”. By the way, what did I paint you as?”
….
Touche Mr. Chapman, we are back to our word games eh. As you wish
“Are you (not by Microsoft of course but by someone)?”
I earn a living to be sure, but you get the benefit of my charming self for free, Mr. Chapman you lucky soul.
oldman wrote, “The community did was nothing more that make a copy, and at times IMHO a bad one at that, of what had already been developed.”
While Linux may have been POSIX it was not a copy of anything.
Apache was based on NCSA HTTPD but has been completely rewritten.
MySQL was written from scratch and is not a copy of anything.
PHP was written from scratch.
The GNU tools perform the same tasks as many UNIX-like operating systems but they were mostly not a copy of anything but parts of BSD.
GNOME, KDE and X were all written from scratch.
It is dangerous to confuse creating software that follows some standard with copying. It is not copying when I write in English even though someone else made the grammar and vocabulary.
“No wonder you’re so confused. Try just sticking with one.”
Ah yes, back to content free snark again. Not unexpected.
Why would I want to do that Mr. Chapman, I get the best of both worlds. Besides Mr. Chapman, knowing both windows and Linux pays quite well.
“And all else, including your attempts to paint me as something that I am not, are pure bushwah.”
Oh, you can dish it out but you can’t take it? What a pansy you are “oldman”. By the way, what did I paint you as?
“Are you perhaps insinuating that I am payed by Microsoft to post here?”
Are you (not by Microsoft of course but by someone)?
“Mr. Stallman did not invent the 4 freedoms. Mr. Stallman made them into an enforced license. BSD predates Stallman. FOSS predates Stallman. Basically Stallman has been come a figure head for a lot older movement. Stallman marks the line between the older and newer movement. The older Movement had no idea of closed source. It was just something you did not do. Stallman is resistance figure head against the change from FOSS to Closed.”
Mr. oiaohm, I am less than a year younger than Mr. Stallman, and I have been working with source code available systems since I first programmed under a stripped down version of Bell Labs Unix that ran on a custom built Dual floppy DEC LSI-11/02 based system in the very early 80′s. I have done extensive work on Unix and BSD based systems until I switched over to IBM AIX in the early 90′s where I stayed until our shop moved to Red Hat Linux. I actually WORKED with the same type of people about 10 years after Stallman did, though by that Time everybody was beginning to realize that there was money to be made in software. We also had the Stallman tyoe geeks who objected, but none became as famous as this joker.
Calling Richard Stallman a “freedom Fighter” is IMHO an insult to real freedoms, much the same way that characterizing Stallmans 4 freedoms are an insult to a lot of people who died defending the real 4 freedoms which are:
Freedom of speech and expression
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear
As far as the contention that we depend on the FOSS is concerned, That is only a small part of the picture, what we depend was actully built by the millions of US taxpayer dollars spent in subsidizing the research on and the development of the Internet. The community did was nothing more that make a copy, and at times IMHO a bad one at that, of what had already been developed.
“I work with both windows and Linux on a daily basis.”
No wonder you’re so confused. Try just sticking with one.
“Windows such a PITA for you, assuming it is technical as opposed to odealigical.”
You’re jumping the gun a little bit on that one “oldman”. That’s the label not due for tree weeks.
Many folks install stuff that corrupts their registries. I have never heard of configs getting messed up by installing FLOSS from outside repositories. Usually that just installs the binaries and libraries and leaves documentation/RTFM.
Yonah “KHTML came 2 years after the initial release of Opera.” True. But 3 years after its release it started using parts from KHTML. Before that it was using a open source javascript processing engine. Complete life of what parts Opera has been using is interesting.
Problem here Yonah I have been around for a long time. I have seen where a lot of developers got there starts.
“Show me any solid proof that registry maintenance software provides any measurable increase in either speed or stability, other than the claims made by those producing said software.”
Main issue is registry file fragmentation. http://ultradefrag.sourceforge.net/ is what you have to use with windows 7. Reason the old pagedefrag that use to work with XP and before Microsoft has not updated they also have not integrated pagedefrag feature into their normal defrag tool. So yes MS have left you hanging. Yes when Windows gets low on memory it pushs registry out of memory so requiring to reload it latter from disk. So more fragmented the registry files are the more damaging to performance it is. Thinking Windows has the habit of pushing it to disk when it did not need to.
Yes Registry cleaning tools can boost performance by reducing search time due to less keys to search threw. Of course they come with risks. Reason you don’t know what depends on what in a registry. Linux stack of files in a directory are a lot simpler to clean safely.
Running Compiz proves idiot. Compiz is known not to work. But if people want to run flashy and have pain so be it.
“I’ve seen plenty of other crap. I’ve had a system throw me to a blinking logon prompt after a kernel update gone bad”
Yes seen worse after windows update as well. But Linux is normally more recoverable. Because you can boot back to the old kernel. Windows boot up blue screen of death due to incompatible driver.
Reason for back to logon prompt is video card driver not installed. Most likely you installed video card driver not through the distribution repo method so not align with updates. Same with people running windows machines without installing the motherboard disk and wondering why they are having problems. Or worst updating to SP2 XP only to find out there motherboard drivers have been updated for SP2 and should have been installed first so their computer will boot.
“I’ve had the X server crash.”
Running compiz were you not. Driver most likely closed source Nvidia or ATI. Due to being DRI1 tech not DRI2 are in fact compiz incompatible. Works by pure luck. Reason why I hate items like Ubuntu flashly instead of stable.
“I’ve seen programs crash silently with no indication they were terminated.” Seen this on All OS’s. Common in fact on all.
Mr. Stallman did not invent the 4 freedoms. Mr. Stallman made them into an enforced license. BSD predates Stallman. FOSS predates Stallman. Basically Stallman has been come a figure head for a lot older movement. Stallman marks the line between the older and newer movement. The older Movement had no idea of closed source. It was just something you did not do. Stallman is resistance figure head against the change from FOSS to Closed.
Really today shut down everything that is depending on something FOSS and the ideas of the 4 freedoms most of the internet would not be there.
Oldman you are not old enough so you think the 4 freedoms started with Stallman. Not that he is just a Resistance fighter against a change.
“As for something for nothing? What do you think I’m doing right now? I don’t get paid like some you guys do, but counteracting FUD is just one of the ways of giving back to the community that gave us this wonderful environment of free and open source software. ”
Oh, my, my,my Mt. Chapman. Are you perhaps insinuating that I am payed by Microsoft to post here? Now whose doing the wishing eh?
If you want to believe that I am a
PaidMicrosoftShillTM
Go right ahead. It isnt true, but , hey, it sounds good.
It actually somewhat refreshing to hear something out of you other than snarky comments. It does make you seem less of a stereotype. I would be intereested in knowing know what make Windows such a PITA for you, assuming it is technical as opposed to odealigical.
At any rate…
“You keep shoveling the same crap “oldman” but your precious world of Microsoft is still shrinking.”
I keep shoveling the same crap because I dislike the dishonest crap that YOU and others like you shovel Mr. Chapman.
As far as Microsoft shrinking is concerned, all I can say is …
Meh. I’ve watched a number of “giants” of the industry fade away as they were blindsided and then swamped by the next best thing. What I can tell you is that long before that time comes, the companies whose software I use will have long since come out with versions of their software on the next new thing, And if it meets my needs and the price is right, I’ll be there cash in hand, and windows will become the next OS/2.
Because in the end its all about the applications.
And remember Mr. Chapman, Unlike you whose head is firmly up the penguins butt, I work with both windows and Linux on a daily basis. I know where the bodies are buried I know what both OS’s and their associated applications can and can not do. Linux as a server does quite a bit for me, Linux desktop applications do not. Thats what it comes down to.
And all else, including your attempts to paint me as something that I am not, are pure bushwah.
There you go “oldman” wishing me into some kind of mold to suit your need. No, I’m not a cheapskate. I just don’t like throwing money at Microsoft. I’ve already thrown more money than I’d care to admit at Wintel. They don’t need any more of my money. I’m sure you and your buddies here will more than make up for my absence. I can get along just fine on FLOSS and a few proprietary drivers. As for something for nothing? What do you think I’m doing right now? I don’t get paid like some you guys do, but counteracting FUD is just one of the ways of giving back to the community that gave us this wonderful environment of free and open source software.
If I was a cheapskate there’s plenty of freeware and shareware to run on Windows. There’s no need to use GNU/Linux if it’s money you’re worried about. And it wasn’t ideology that started me on GNU/Linux either. It was the fact that Microsoft’s Windows had become such a PITA that I began to look elsewhere. It was while I was looking at a forum of people showing their desktops that I realized how configurable GNU/Linux was. That’s what finally “sold” me.
So this week I’m a cheapskate. Next week I’ll be a Microsoft hater. After that, a zealot. Then, an ideologue. Then maybe, I’m jealous of Bill Gates. Then you’ll start all over with cheapskate. You keep shoveling the same crap “oldman” but your precious world of Microsoft is still shrinking.
“Yonah, so you can safely shut down all the elements of the Internet that were created under the four freedoms umbrella and you would be running along just dandy, wouldn’t you? Or does that count as one of those minor things that don’t really matter?”
Actually he would be doing just fine. TCP/IP and the internet in a much more limited form, was already in place as the DARPANet when Mr. Stallman was still actually In college. You may want to take a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet
Give this reality It is a sure bet that we would be running on the internet even if Mr. Stallman hadn’t existed.
As far as you other nonsensical statements are concerned, Yonah has pretty much said what I would have. The only thing That I will add is this.
You can talk until you are blue in the fact about the merits of “free Software” but as far as I am concerned, their only merit in the end is that they are free for cheapskates like you Mr. Chapman, who in the end seem only to want to get something for nothing. Those of us who understand Mr. Stallmans screed for the bushwah that it is, will continue to give value for value.
Ah, so you wouldn’t install software unless it had been certified by Debian?
But Microsoft has a certification process too, and they’re not going to certify software that corrupts the registry and renders machines unbootable. There are rules that software must conform to – exactly like the rules for acceptable Debian packages.
So you are comparing incomparable things, specifically (1) certified Debian packages from an official repository, and (2) uncertified third-party Windows programs from a random website.
Once again, this is just FUD.
How could that be? I have it on good authority that “commercial” software is the real deal.
Debian has a policy against that and they follow their policies. How many such vulnerabilities do you find in the Debian repositories?
Actually you could quite easily create a Debian package capable of making a system unbootable on installation or removal. Would you like a demonstration?
Naturally a Windows application could do the same thing. This is why we Windows users keep backups.
That was in the second article, which looks very much like an advertisement to promote a particular piece of software.
But you most likely haven’t seen anything like that before. One advantage of (desktop) Linux is that you never run into the sort of scam where a dodgy software house writes some dodgy application, and then creates a number of “independent” review sites to promote it and raise its Google rank. That’s what seems to have happened here. One big clue is in the WHOIS data for that site. Users of mass-market platforms (including Linux in its Android form) are obliged to research software very carefully before installing anything.
One of the bars was at 11% improvement.
One of the ways that other OS can fail is that an installer wrecks the registry so the system will not boot or whatever. The usual fix for that is to restore to some point in time. This only works if the backup/restore-point exists. One way or another the registry can be corrupted and it all falls down. A “cleaner” is unlikely to be able to fix that mess but it can reduce the size of the problem. An indexed database is a useful concept but it is an accident waiting to happen if installers can manipulate the database willy-nilly. GNU/Linux is a much more sane system. The installed package does not manipulate anything but its own configuration in a system like Debian GNU/Linux.
Your first link shows no improvement at all. I know it says “A nice improvement , almost 1000 additional point after single mouse click”, a quality of English typical of the whole article, but this just demonstrates that the reviewer has no idea how to perform an experiment or interpret a result, because the 1000 figure is actually only a 1.5% change. So small that variations due to other system activity are most likely to be responsible for it.
And the second link? Quite obviously set up to advertise one specific registry cleaner. Would you trust a review site whose operator’s details are secret? Try a WHOIS. Why don’t the details match the company listed on the web page? Unlike the first web page, this is clearly a scam.
I still do not believe that registry cleaners are necessary for modern Windows (i.e. Win2K onwards). This is just FUD.
All registry cleaning software is scamware. It is snake oil, intended to fool the stupid and ill-informed, just like the “psychic software” available for purchase from the first website.
Yonah wrote, “Show me any solid proof that registry maintenance software provides any measurable increase in either speed or stability, other than the claims made by those producing said software.”
Google finds 3.9million links for “registry cleaner”. All that non-free software development can’t have been for naught, can it?
Yonah, so you can safely shut down all the elements of the Internet that were created under the four freedoms umbrella and you would be running along just dandy, wouldn’t you? Or does that count as one of those minor things that don’t really matter?
“Proprietary software is useful to me and many others and it’s not going away.” “No, you NEED to believe it otherwise your hardcore dedication is on shaky ground.”
FOSS software is useful to me and many others and it’s not going away.
You see Yonah, just a slight alteration in the placement of the words and you are one of us. At least in the way you and your buddies like to represent us.
Oiaohm, you need to start supplying some citations because much of what you say just doesn’t make sense. Maybe you should try a little less laughing and do a little more research. KHTML came 2 years after the initial release of Opera. As with the Quake engine, I think you’re confused about when things happened and exactly what was used where. More to the point, I’m pretty sure you didn’t have anything to do with the development of either one of them. As the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Frankly, your word alone isn’t good enough. Maybe for fellow FOSS advocates it’s enough, but I’m certainly not one of them. I’m not one of your homeboys on Techrights.
“You don’t see this crap out of Linux ever.”
I’ve seen plenty of other crap. I’ve had a system throw me to a blinking logon prompt after a kernel update gone bad. I’ve had the X server crash. I’ve seen programs crash silently with no indication they were terminated. I’ve seen garbled a garbled Open Office window because of some incompatibility with Compiz. Oh, and I’ve got the screen shot to prove that. Don’t tell me Linux won’t give me problems because I’ve seen them first hand. Drop the registry argument too because it just doesn’t hold water. Show me any solid proof that registry maintenance software provides any measurable increase in either speed or stability, other than the claims made by those producing said software. My computer IS as fast as it was when I bought it. I know because I use it almost every day. You don’t use my computer, I do.
It wouldn’t matter if FOSS is in everything, though I highly dispute that claim as it sounds like something you really want to believe. No, you NEED to believe it otherwise your hardcore dedication is on shaky ground. Proprietary software is useful to me and many others and it’s not going away. So long as it takes work to create programs there will always be those who want to profit from that work, and that’s OK. But using FOSS only? You can choose to live that lifestyle, but it’s not for me. I’m sure a lot of other people feel the same way.
Opera browser has in fact changed engines over the years. Yonah Current one is in fact using webkit in places. And the first version of Opera was using code from khtml. The prior to webkit existence.
Linux Apostate correct first prototype of team fortress appeared as a quake mod using QuakeC scripting language. Then the developers of that were picked up by valve.
Source Engine also uses open source library parts in places. Yes I know this from what I say latter.
Yonah
“Oiaohm, can you guarantee your server, which has been running for 3000+ days, would properly boot up in the event of a power or hardware failure?”
Simple because the server network boots. From a central data storage. Take snapshot from central data-storage and boot that up. When that works no need to worry since the N+1 still works. Now if the motherboard that its on does not work who gives a rats basically the spare is all that has to work. Yes the design also supports hot migration between blades while running. So yes from when the server started providing its service there is not a single hardware part that is still there yet the OS has not been rebooted. Really 3000+ is an impressive number thinking how many hot migrations its been threw getting there.
So I guess you are not running big iron hardware so have to do the test the primitive way causing disruptions to 100 percent up-time without need. I can more than “guarantee the server” If customer wants I can have multi location backup as well. Ie nuke the datacenter where the server is have load picked up inside 3 mins by a independent datacenter.
This is proper server backup models. So a single motherboard not starting really means nothing. No need to even restart the OS on the same motherboard it was last running on. So I have no valid reason to reboot a motherboard that is currently working to find out if it still works. Since if it does not work any more when I need to reboot it the backup hardware is there to replace it. Yes I do need to check the backup hardware. Not the active.
Yes I work on big iron so talking in days I am a person who will laugh at you Yonah. Its a sign you are using crappy hardware configurations or a crappy OS.
I know what QQ is and what is uses because I have been helping people using wine to run many different applications. I get to see internals of applications.
Yonah
“requires constant re-reboots after updates.”
I can tell you now that this can be true. Luck of the draw. Particular motherboard chipsets have this habit with Windows I don’t know exactly why. I have a very good idea its driver or some other hardware support application related locking files so forcing windows update to reboot an insane amount of time that other computers don’t.
Yes I have see 2 clean installs both installing the same update only thing different chipset in motherboard 1 require a reboot 1 did not. Mostly because I was trying to work out what in heck was going on only stuff installed in the OS’s tested was the makers provided drivers and OS from same OEM disk. No anti-virus no internet connection.
Robert Pogson could just simply have example of bad luck and you had good luck. You don’t see this crap out of Linux ever.
“my computer is as fast as it was when I bought it in last year.” Unless you have run cleaning programs its not. Windows registery even in windows 7 fragments leading to slower look up time of registry keys so killing performance by a method death by 1000 cuts.
“Proprietary software doesn’t need FOSS in order to grow, develop, and function.”
Exactly what does FOSS do for Proprietary. Its something important. Stops Proprietary from reinventing the wheel all the time and share common tech. Developing Proprietary applications without using FOSS tech somewhere is stupidity. For Propriatary software to be affordable FOSS has to be used.
Proprietary software will not develop without FOSS of some form. Heck even Microsoft Visual Studio complier has files that applications include in that are FOSS but this is FOSS from Microsoft. Yes everything built with a Microsoft Complier contains some FOSS. This is the problem. there is no way to get away from it.
In fact there is no compiler for native applications that does not contain some FOSS code. This is why you are stuffed Yonah FOSS is in everything. There is nothing people call Proprietary that does not contain some FOSS. If you find something you think is Proprietary pure and you cannot see the FOSS most cases you just have not dug deep enough yet.
Only cases you find something pure Proprietary is embed in some devices. There is not a single desktop application that is pure Proprietary.
More FOSS less Proprietary reinventing the wheel faster progress over all. So even if Proprietary remains around we should all want more FOSS.
“[Team Fortress 2] Would not exist if the Quake engine had not been open source.”
Oiaohm appears to be refering here to the original version of Team Fortress which was a mod for Quake. The mod was released in 1996.
But Quake’s source code was not public until 1999, by which time TF had moved to the Half Life engine, so Oiaohm is mistaken. Maybe he means the QuakeC scripting language. But if having a scripting API makes a game engine open source, then World of Warcraft is open source too.
Pogson says that debates about software freedom are “like kicking an ant-hill” in that they attract contributors like myself. My interest is in software freedom, specifically understanding why it is that the fifth software freedom (the right to sell commercial software) is so despised.
It’s frustrating that these topics degenerate into pissing contests about who has the biggest uptime, who has the most bugs, who has the best software and whose SMB service has the most restrictive access limit. The interesting topics are, I think, much more abstract. What are the limits of FLOSS, for instance? What is it good at, and what is it bad at?
Yonah wrote, “Proprietary software doesn’t need FOSS in order to grow, develop, and function.”
Tell that to the developers for that other OS that use GNU/Linux as a development platform.
So, you can argue about the meaning of “need” but folks are definitely depending on FLOSS for all kinds of software. Capitalists use FLOSS, too, because it lowers costs and maximizes profits.
As to games, yes it has historically been a weak area, nonetheless, I don’t think Linux will be lagging for too much longer. See
http://www.cahilig.net/2011/07/29/100-best-free-and-high-quality-linux-games
and this is by no means, comprehensive of what Linux will run.
I mention uptime only as a finger in the eye to Pogson, who’s convinced running Windows means my computer is unstable, crashes constantly, and requires constant re-reboots after updates. All of which is false. I don’t get blue screens of death and my computer is as fast as it was when I bought it in last year. I’m well aware of what programs are running and I don’t spend much time on maintenance.
My girlfriend complains her computer is slow. What she really means is that the Internet is slow. Is that because of Microsoft’s evil proprietary code? No, actually it’s because she’s using Funshion, a Chinese on-line video streaming program. Even when you’re not watching something it sits in the background and acts as a P2P client for other users. She had no idea it was running in the background eating up her bandwidth (which is shared between her neighbors) and that’s the real problem.
Oiaohm, can you guarantee your server, which has been running for 3000+ days, would properly boot up in the event of a power or hardware failure? You can’t be sure unless you tested it. Like a genital measuring contest, you might be proud of your big number, but it’s not as special as you think it is.
Richard, very little of the software I use depends on the “four freedoms”. So little in fact that if FOSS didn’t exist then much of what I do wouldn’t change, except that it might cost me a small amount of money. Proprietary software doesn’t need FOSS in order to grow, develop, and function. If there is software someone needs, there are companies and individuals who can fill the gap with their own products. If that software doesn’t exist, hire your own programmer or create it yourself and market such software. Capitalism works to fill the needs of those who need things. It’s not perfect, but nothing else so far has worked as well.
Oiaohm, much of what you say is wrong, but I’ll focus on Team Fortress 2 because games are one area were FOSS is extremely poor. Value licensed and modified the Quake Engine for use in Half Life 1 long before ID software released the source code for the original Quake. Team Fortress 2 uses the Source Engine, Valve’s own proprietary Engine. It is not open source. Have you even played this game? Opera doesn’t use Webkit and I was using Opera browser even prior to Webkit’s initial release. You seem to know little about Opera. QQ, do you even know what that is? Exactly where do you pulling your information from?
“Makes more sense than trying to run a desktop with a server OS like Linux, too.”
Except that Linux isn’t a server OS. It’s a kernel. One that you can build any kind of OS around, whether that be a desktop OS (Fedora, Ubuntu Desktop) a server OS (Red Hat Enterprise Linux, CentOS, Ubuntu Server), or a mobile phone OS (Android)
Yonah let me point out how stupid you are.
Lets just say I remove everything you used that had some of the 4 freedoms in it.
“-Wake up, tap the mouse to wake the screen. My Windows 7 machine has been running for 21 days straight without a reboot or logoff. (Proprietary OS)”
Ok png jpeg and other key libraries are in fact under the 4 freedoms in Windows 7. Microsoft avoids the GPL stuff but there are many other parts in windows from the open source world under BSD and other things.
Also I don’t talk of Linux uptime in days. Months is a min figure. Years are common. Stating days just makes anyone running big iron laugh at you. Like one server here if I state days its only been up for 3000+ days. Its been on the fly upgraded. Yes its been running for almost 10 years.
“-Make a 1 hour call to my father back in America using Skype. (proprietary VOIP software)”
This is the only thing you used that in fact can work without the 4 freedoms but you don’t have a OS since Windows 7 will not work without it.
“-Chat with a co-workers on QQ about what I will do at work tomorrow (proprietary messaging client)”
Look at what that program is using. QT library again open source developed tech.
“-Later that day browse some news websites and check my email with Opera (Proprietary web browser)”
Rendering engine is webkit releation that is under the 4 freedoms without that you don’t have Opera.
“-While doing chores listen to Michigan Radio, my favorite NPR station via XMPlay (Proprietary audio player)”
Even sections of this depends on code from the 4 freedoms.
“-In the evening I play Team Fortress 2 for about an hour. (Proprietary computer game)”
Would not exist if the Quake engine had not been open source.
Yonah there is no way to do work these days without at some point using something that is covered under the 4 freedoms.
Yet it possible to do work without ever using Proprietary. The stuff under the 4 freedoms is the foundations everything sits on. So everyone is a FOSS user in one form or other no matter how much they try to avoid the fact.
Now once you wake up the 4 freedom stuff is the foundation defending it is important.
Basically lose the stupidity.
Contrarian
“Having 20 connections is likely to never occur, so the limit is not a selling point.” UMM.
12 computers in a network without a server. Yep welcome to hell. Reason that exceeds the 20 connection to be correct 11 exceeds. Yes 1 outgoing and 1 incoming connection between all computers.
Apple you can run 12 computers without a server Linux you can run 12 computers without a server. Windows Nop no go.
Lets just say you are being ripped off. Small business having to buy servers when they otherwise would not be required. Just due to a artificial limitation MS has placed.
Typically, teachers will have a shared folder available to every machine in the building. They are constantly connected.
“Which of the 80 PCs did I need to block on the boss’ firewall? ”
As a practical matter, none of them, I think. You create a hypothetical scenario that is unlikely to occur even .000000000001% of the time and then suggest that being unable to satisfy that scenario is some sort of proof of a fatal flaw in Windows. 99+% of personal desktops and laptops and netbooks are never connected to any other devices unless it is the laptop owner connecting via remote desktop to his own workstation. Having 20 connections is likely to never occur, so the limit is not a selling point.
A sane person without any hatred for Microsoft would simply use a web server version of Windows 2008 to service a huge pool of clients. Makes more sense than trying to play server with a desktop OS. Makes more sense than trying to run a desktop with a server OS like Linux, too.
Thank you Yonah for pounding away so diligently on the point I was trying to make which was: You depend on or choose to use software that wouldn’t exist without the four freedoms, not that you give a rat’s ass about anything including the four freedoms.
“It may surprise you to know that in the real world we don’t make software decisions based in idealogy alone. The choice of software at the enterprise [and/or personal (my words added)] level requires the weighing of many factors, including the possibility of using open source. If Open source based software is chosen, it is chosen on its merit and supportability not because it is free.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself…
Linux is the desktop is getting adopted increasingly where I have worked. In the labs I am in now, there’s a lot of sharp folks, whom are not IT-oriented, but they know what they need, and FOSS OS’es and apps are providing it in spades. Many big proprietary software houses are seeing the same and have ported, or are porting like mad, to LINUX, some of these “Big Boys” include: Abaqus, ANSYS, LabView, Unigraphics NX, Matlab, ProEngineer, Mathematica, SPSS, Maple, Nero, CATIA, (and it goes on see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proprietary_software_for_Linux)…..what I find odd is the ant-virus category, which is mainly to emplace a herd immunity to reduce infections of the other OS, and too a much lessor extent, MacOSX. Now I’ll admitt this list is skewed towards engineering and scientific computing, but there’s a lot of general purpose software following the leading edge.
Meanwhile, at home the sons and wife, have used Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS for a medley of tasks using both proprietary and FOSS to include:
- Authoring DVD’s and performing video processing and cleanup (DeVeDee, VLC, ffmpeg, etc., all FOSS)
- Chatting over video connections (Skype, Ekiga, now Google Chat/proprietary, FOSS, and Open Source)
- Watch streamed movies (Ogg in VLC and H264 in Flash, more often the former due to better performance….)
- Used the Second Life Virtual Enviroment thru SnowGlobe (FOSS viewer)
- Done 3-D solid modeling and animation (Blender (FOSS))
- The 18-20 yo.’ds Played on-line 3-D shooting stuff (OpenArea, America’s Army, AssualtCube, Saurbratuen, FreeDoom, Tremulous, Urban Terror, Warsaw, and more I can’ keep track of, FOSS, BTW a lot of these are in the repositories)
- The 7 y.o. Played on-line tank shooting, Citybuilding, Cart Racing, Penguin sledding (BZFlag, Lincity, TuxCart, Tux Racer, all FOSS)
- Exploring flight and space-travel (FlightGear, Celestia, both FOSS)
- Made kiddie art (TuxPaint, FOSS)
- Synced late generation Ipod Nanos without the hundred megabyte privacy-invading bloatware of iTunes (Rhythmbox with GtkPod, FOSS)
- Enjoyed high-performance, malware-free, defrag-free, registry-cleaning free, license key management-free, unlimited server connection-equipped computing on systems that have stayed stable for up to 5-6 years and counting (GNU/Linux, FOSS), maximum time they kept an XP system running before malware made it unaccetably slow was about 4-5 months, despite all the best practices (user-level accounts, virus-scanners, firewalls, locked bootsectors, browser-script denial, etc.). On this note one insisted on running 7 on a new machine that he bought with his own money about 3-4 months ago, it is already running slow. I don’t mess with it and when he nags me about it being slow, I’ll give him a set of Linux Live CD’s with an instruction sheet or tell him to go to a repair shop if he insists on Vista 7, my days of being free tech support for M$ and Crapple are over, FOSS has set my expectations too high…and time he learn the real costs of ownership of a OS of substandard quality.
I have used Ubuntu for the following not “normal” tasks:
- Coding MATLAB clone code for processing numerical data (QtOctave (FOSS)), and used to write Matlab code when I could obtain and Student License (MATLAB, proprietary)
- Working high level differential equation modeling (WxMaxima (FOSS)); when I was still a student (Mathematica, proprietary)
- Writing technical papers (Lyx, OpenOffice, LibreOffice all FOSS)
- Totally rebuilding a system that had a harddrive failure by answering 8 questions and running a bash script of a dozen lines, perhaps 5 minutes of touch time; I AM NOT a power user (apt-get package management, FOSS). With Windows this was a FULL day chore…..
- Edited Vector and bitmap graphics for papers (Inkscape and GIMP, FOSS) after importing them from scanners of 3 different types (XSane, FOSS, no need to 15 to 150 MB peculiar drives, Linux i just Plug and Play)
- Performed audio and type chat (Ekiga, FOSS and Skype Proprietary)
- Used cloud backup and distrubution (DropBox and UbuntuOne, proprietary)
- Generated hiking maps (GoogleMaps, free but closed, I think)
- Enjoyed high-performance, malware-free, defrag-free, registry-cleaning free, license key management-free, unlimited server connection-equipped computing on systems that have stayed stable for up to 5-6 years and counting (GNU/Linux, FOSS)
The sister in law, whom also bought an HP with Vista 7 (2010 era hardware) is increasingly spending time on the heap in the kitchen (over 80% of her sit-time) that was fished out of a dumpster (2002 era machine running Ubuntu 10.04) and hasn’t asked yet for a pave over but is giving the signs.
You want to be a slave? That’s your choice. Sad.
Software freedom is mostly a benefit to developers who are freed from having to spend money up front for the privilege of using software, accounting for licences or doing silly unproductive things like Contrarian wants, counting connections to the LAN… The FLOSS itself is what is mostly valued by users and the two go together. You cannot have FLOSS without the freedom.
It doesn’t say anything about “making” connections. It says “allow”. There is a difference. Which of the 80 PCs did I need to block on the boss’ firewall? How about the NXN map of firewall limits I would need to run to manage that? Silly. Impractical. That’s your argument and M$’s EULA. We just don’t need either in IT.
Yep. It’s like kicking an ant-hill.
Pogson, is it just me, or have you noticed that the posts on this website that have the most comments and debate are the ones about software freedom?
“Freedom to do something is only as valuable as it is useful.”
“Freedom’s just another word for ‘nothing left to lose’” — Janis Joplin back in the 70′s.
“There is nothing in there about timing”
There is something in there about counting, though, #pogson, and that demands timing. How would you determine how many connections were being made to other devices unless you counted them? When you do count them, they have to be connected. If they are not connected when you count them, they are not counted. So if there are 100 workstations on the LAN and no more than 20 are connected at any one time to your own workstation, any time that you count them, there will be 20 or less. If you look at the XML used to configure things like WCF connections, you can easily see where connection limits may be imposed, as well.
This is how I used my computer on Sunday:
-Wake up, tap the mouse to wake the screen. My Windows 7 machine has been running for 21 days straight without a reboot or logoff. (Proprietary OS)
-Make a 1 hour call to my father back in America using Skype. (proprietary VOIP software)
-Chat with a co-workers on QQ about what I will do at work tomorrow (proprietary messaging client)
-Later that day browse some news websites and check my email with Opera (Proprietary web browser)
-While doing chores listen to Michigan Radio, my favorite NPR station via XMPlay (Proprietary audio player)
-In the evening I play Team Fortress 2 for about an hour. (Proprietary computer game)
That’s just one day. Other days I might watch a movie, go through my digital photos, write a document, or do some other work. All of this is done mostly with proprietary software. I do use some FOSS software, but only because I’m happy with HOW it works, not that it is FOSS. I don’t use Linux because I’m unhappy with its performance, design, and it does not run the software I like to use.
Here is the big point most FOSS advocates just can’t get a grip on. I don’t give a damn about FOSS freedom! I don’t need it. NOT having complete and total freedom over the software I use is NOT a problem for me, at all. I don’t care about the freedoms you hold so dear to your heart. I do the things *I* want to do and *I* am happy. Millions of other people are happy too. Freedom to do something is only as valuable as it is useful.
But, carry on trying to convince others that they need to support your ideas and how they’ll work better. That worked out so well in the past with religion and politics. Me? I’ll go back to actually using my computer to do things, rather than argue about what I can and can’t do with some computer code.
“oldman” If every piece of software you use that was either created under the four freedoms concept or depends on it were unavailable to you, you and your business would be dead in the water. Do you understand that? You can’t make a move without depending on Richard Stallman’s four freedoms in some way.
You have already feasted heartily upon his meal. It’s too late to say you disagree with his four freedoms. They are part of the fiber of your operation. Love it or not that’s the fact.
Contrarian repeatedly defends M$, “You are grasping at straws here, #pogson. Admit that you are wrong. The plain language of the restriction implies a point in time when the condition can be measured and, if fewer than 21 devices are connected at that time, then it is in line with the restriction. Think before you act.”
I quote M$, again, e. Device Connections. You may allow up to 20 other devices to access software installed on the licensed computer to use only File Services, Print Services, Internet Information Services and Internet Connection Sharing and Telephony Services.“
There is nothing in there about timing. “20 other devices” is all it says. A connection in this context is obviously a network connection and they could even be talking about the physical layer. Having a physical network connection does “allow” doesn’t it?
Where I worked last year, we were approaching 100 PCs and the EULA clearly prevented my employer legally doing what he had been doing for years, sharing files and printers with every PC in the building. The fools even did it over the web because they had no router when I arrived…
oldman, you are confusing multiple ideas. Software does cost money and manpower. Developers of FLOSS get paid one way or another. Some are on the payroll of businesses that use them in a support role, ensuring the software works for them. Others produce FLOSS to promote their careers. Others do it to perfect their art. Others do it for fun or because they need a certain type of software not available elsewhere. The only people who are not paid to develop FLOSS are those paid to develop software that is not free, usually with a paid licence. The world does not owe those people a living and we don’t want to steal their work. No one is compelled to give away their work. Linus doesn’t. He is paid to manage Linux.
The something for nothing idea is not what Free Software is about. It’s just a fringe benefit. If people are paid to write FLOSS a licensing fee does not need to be collected. It works. If you wrote FLOSS instead of music, you could be paid your annual salary as now and you would not care whether 1000 or 1000000 copies of your software are installed except the latter number might give you more satisfaction/positive feedback. You would still be paid and your work would not be stolen. There’s nothing involuntary about such a system of software development. Ask developers. They prefer FLOSS because it does not get in the way of what they do but facilitates it.
“A majority of respondents in all surveys answered that one of the motivations for becoming involved in FLOSS development was to acquire and share knowledge and skills. Respondents also felt that others did not place as much value on skills as they did, and that proprietary software was not good. These trends were common in FLOSS–JP/ASIA. A major difference in FLOSS–JP and ASIA was that Asian respondents felt that other developers were involved in FLOSS development for fame or profit.”
see First Monday – Hiroyuki Shimizu – The Realities of Free/Libre/Open Source software developers in Japan and Asia
In Japan, in 2004, 20% of FLOSS developers were paid to develop, administer or support FLOSS.
In EU, in 2004, 45% of FLOSS developers were paid to develop, administer or support FLOSS.
In USA, in 2004, 41% of FLOSS developers were paid to develop, administer or support FLOSS.
oldman wrote, “DO you really believe that you can replace all of the commercial software the real businesses use to get their computing tasks done with pure FOSS?”
That is demonstrably true because many business and governmental organizations of great size use FLOSS. The larger the organization the easier it is to use FLOSS because they can afford programmers to tailor FLOSS as they want. Potentially FLOSS should be superior for businesses for that reason. Peugeot moved 20K desktops to GNU/Linux. Munich is almost done its migration. Are you claiming government and auto-making are not businesses? IBM and Google are real businesses, too.
Here’s a list.
Here’s an article about the unrelenting progress of GNU/Linux on the desktop, including a German company switching all of its 10K desktops to GNU/Linux.
FLOSS is a model for all types of software but not all models of business. There is a difference. I can find FLOSS that does whatever I want. I do not have to deal with a particular business because of that. It works for developers and it works for users.
“Those decision makers routinely and ignorantly force the rest of us to deal with Microsoft’s second rate tech.”
Yes, #twitter, “The Palookas have all the points!”, eh? Certainly you are smarter and more capable than your boss, why else would they make him the boss? To paraphrase old Cassius:
“The fault, dear twitter, is not in our stars, but in ourselves, that we are underlings.”
“Read the EULA it says devices connected, nothing about concurrency”
You are grasping at straws here, #pogson. Admit that you are wrong. The plain language of the restriction implies a point in time when the condition can be measured and, if fewer than 21 devices are connected at that time, then it is in line with the restriction. Think before you act.
“Genuine Proof of License”
That only describes what you should do when the computer or software is acquired initially. If the sticker is lost or the packaging discarded, the license is still valid. No one checks individuals anyway, #pogson. You know that but use a few ancient incidents where pirates were aprehended using illegal copies to “prove” your claim. I think that those examples pre-date COAs in any case.
“Right from M$”
You can replace a defective motherboard as it clearly states. You cannot transfer the license to a new computer, as I stated, but that is the essence of the OEM license. If you want to try to be deceptive and claim that you are merely “replacing the motherboard” rather than “building a new computer”, then you can correctly understand that you are violating the license terms, but no one really cares and no one ever checks.
“Quit wasting our time defending M$’s restrictions on freedom”
Quit making such unsubstantiated claims. It is easy to be “free” in the FOSS environment and it is not possible to do so in the proprietary software arena where you are expected to pay for the benefits that you receive from the work product of others.
“Actually what I defend is the right to people or companies to benefit from the fruits of their labor.”
Right. This is another important software freedom, but it’s not on Stallman’s list. It is the right to choose who can use your software, otherwise known as copyright.
Stallman focuses exclusively on the rights of the user, but the rights of the engineers and the publisher also matter.
Publishers could opt to make everything free software, and for some, that’s a good approach. But they shouldn’t be forced to do so. The FLOSS model is not appropriate for all types of software.
“Please do not hire someone so blind to run many computers. The job can be done as well with free software and should be kept out of the hands of someone blindly refusing freedom. ”
Mr. twitter:
You are quite a commedian. DO you really believe that you can replace all of the commercial software the real businesses use to get their computing tasks done with pure FOSS? Small wonder you are working (I believe you said) in some doctors office – How is that receptionists job doing BTW?
It may surprise you to know that in the real world we dont make software decisions based in idealogy alone. The choice of software at the enterprise level requires the weighing of many factors, including the possibility of using open source. If Open source based software is chosen, it is chosen on its merit and supportability not because it is free. In fact more often than not open source when used is a commercialized version that effectively costs as much is the software the dreaded microsoft sells.
As far as my benefiting from open source software and voluntarism of others is concerned, to paraphrase Larry Ellison, I’d be a fool not to partake.
“Quit wasting our time defending M$’s restrictions on freedom.”
Actually what I defend is the right to people or companies to benefit from the fruits of their labor. The fact that microsoft benefits from the fruit of their work or from the fruits of technology that thay have acquired is not a problem for me, as I am adult enough to understand that not everything in life comes for free.
The so called 4 freedoms of the bitter hippie Richard Stallman as far as I am concerned amount to nothing more than the whining of someone who expects something for nothing.
With all due respect Pog, the notion that a community in need is some how due a benefit at what amounts to someones involuntary expense is simply wrong. If I wish to voluntarily donate a piece of intellectual property for community use, that is a personal choice. But to the extent that the four freedoms demand that right by implication involuntarily, they are wrong.
The COA is needed for authentication and proof of licensing in an audit. See what M$ says about proof of licensing: for OEM licences, the COA is required to be stuck onto the panel of the machine.
There may be a mechanism to replace a damaged sticker but time is money… You cannot have it both ways.
Read the EULA it says devices connected, nothing about concurrency.
“e. Device Connections. You may allow up to 20 other devices to access software installed on the licensed computer to use only File Services, Print Services, Internet Information Services and Internet Connection Sharing and Telephony Services.
“
“a. Genuine Proof of License. If you acquired the software on a computer, or on a disc or othermedia, a genuine Microsoft Certificate of Authenticity label with a genuine copy of the software identifies licensed software. To be valid, this label must be affixed to the computer or appear on the manufacturer’s or installer’s packaging.
“
Right from M$:
“A. Generally, an end user can upgrade or replace all of the hardware components on a computer—except the motherboard—and still retain the license for the original Microsoft OEM operating system software. If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect, then a new computer has been created. Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred to the new computer, and the license of new operating system software is required.”
see Licensing FAQ
Quit wasting our time defending M$’s restrictions on freedom.
OEMs will not produce a product for long that they cannot make a profit. Some OEMs have tiny margins so that markup on M$’s licences is seen as necessary for survival. With Android/Linux, OEMs are loving the fact that Google is not charging money for the licence. It won’t take long for OEMs to realize they can make money supplying GNU/Linux on x86 PCs as well.
Being able to read the source code is what makes “distros” possible. There is a lot of value in having a distro to work with rather than individual users or organizations having to piece together an installation of GNU/Linux. That probably saves end users more than $100 an installation if time is money. Downloading a CD for installation probably costs about $1. Using it for a default installation might take 15-20 minutes on a newer machine. At $30/h that’s about $7.50, so for $8.50 the user gets to use GNU/Linux. With that other OS the price of the licence is about $100, and there’s still some time fiddling with COA, authentication, installing drivers, “setting up” this and that and you have to install some applications separately, probably coming to $150 or more total cost of acquisition. I met a businessman who said his PC cost $4000 for software on top of the price of the PC. He knew he could use Free Software to do the job but government insisted on certain software on the PCs, fancy databases, M$’s office suite, client applications for governmental databases and a handful of graphics and multimedia applications. Using GNU/Linux and FLOSS saves a lot of cash. On one big installation that I did, there was a budget of $100K and for that my employer got about $30K more hardware than he could have using that other OS. That system is still going strong years later.
Oldman benefits from software freedom even if he is too dull to use it directly. Google, Wikipedia and most of the world wide web would not exist without the four software freedoms. Everyone uses these services daily and we all benefit from it.
Please do not hire someone so blind to run many computers. The job can be done as well with free software and should be kept out of the hands of someone blindly refusing freedom. Microsoft is what it is, not because they had superior technology but because they succeeded in marketing and influencing what they call “decision makers”. Those decision makers routinely and ignorantly force the rest of us to deal with Microsoft’s second rate tech.
“Some people who side with the proprietary group claim to be agnostic in their choice and use of software but say Microsoft products are simply better.”
Lets not forget that M$ puts extra effort into making sure their products (and ONLY theirs) work well together. They screwed over OS/2, for example, so they wouldn’t have to share their cake. The reason why Office formats change every release? To prevent people from using them on older versions. (Oh wait, that’s just with Microsoft’s software.)
ODF formats work well with each other and are backwards compatible. Even from 2008 when OpenOffice was popular and new, to 2011 when libreoffice is popular and new. And years from now, ODF will work.
If you are using any new, recent Microsoft products, just try getting them to integrate with Word 2000, or 2003 even. Especially on Windows 7.
What a joke.
“To summarise, I think your arguments would have been more poignant if you had more clearly differentiated the benefits of free as in beer…”
It was only recently that a small but significant misnomer was corrected. The term FLOSS was thought to be Free Linux Open Source Software by one or more of the proprietary group that frequents this blog. The correct acronym is Free Libre Open Source Software. There’s been more than one case where an attempt has been made to “put the open source zealots in there place” with a reference to someone or something in the movement that was completely botched due to an ignorance of the subject. This can only happen because the knowledge about FLOSS simply isn’t there. With those who follow FLOSS it’s different in most cases. Most of us come from a Microsoft Windows background. We have been there. We know and understand what it is to work with Microsoft’s products.
Some people who side with the proprietary group claim to be agnostic in their choice and use of software but say Microsoft products are simply better. They claim experience with open source. Well it can’t be that much experience if the don’t really understand where it comes from and how it’s created and maintained.
Mr. Pogson, I believe oldman’s claim on FLOSS is a somewhat more specific than you present it. It seems to me he does not claim that commercial software is cheaper in terms of licensing costs, he merely claims that free software cannot get the work done or it only can do it if the user spends so much more time learning or working with the software that productivity losses more than offset any savings on the licence.
In this context your EULA argument does not carry weight because those who really need transferable licences or multiple-connections licences can still buy them. Prices have no relation to costs, they simply define the level at which supply and demand meet. If people pay for software (sometimes different prices for different usages of the same piece of software) it means that that software is worth for them at least the price they are willing to pay. This is also true for a finished product bundling together both software and hardware.
Your argument in favour of Freedom 2 will work for any kind of freeware and and can indeed be summarised as “not having to pay is less expensive than having to pay”.
The reality, Mr Pogson is that there is commercial software worth the price, even if only for a niche, and if oldman or others cannot find what they need unless they pay for a licence they are right to buy it. This is not to say that often people will buy or pirate software only to avoid the cost of learning or even of doing their work properly.
I think that a lot more good games will have a commercial license rather than a FLOSS one, as there is hardly any non-ideological incentive to open source a game. However, things could be or become different for educational games used in schools. I think you can argue this point successfully.
As you said, FLOSS is cheaper to develop, distribute and maintain. It tends to be more modular and can take advantage of synergies in ways hardly imaginable with commercial software. If you do not try to make a living by actually selling your software, FLOSS is a way of getting help for free, of adding value to your project.
You also pointed out FLOSS software is a lot less hassle for the end-user in terms of accountancy/accountability. This ease of licence-ownership may go a lot farther than for other freeware, which at the very least may have limitations on usage, perhaps on the number of simultaneous users/connections or on redistribution.
To summarise, I think your arguments would have been more poignant if you had more clearly differentiated the benefits of free as in beer from the benefits of free as in freedom and if you focussed more on the latter (as oldman does not seem to dispute the former).
Contrarian You don’t know school kids.
Once a COA is ripped or damaged its not long before its completely destroyed. They will rip like half the sticker off. So you now only have half the numbers.
The worse issue I have is COA stickers on the under side of laptops. Mostly because COA stickers are badly designed. Printing the numbers on the sticker without placing a coating on it. Normally I use some all weather tape over the COA sticker on laptops so preventing the wear off issue. A simple provided plastic top coating over the printing would prevent most the COA issues cause by direct wear. Providing this is a few cents per sticker.
“Totally bogus as well. Nothing in the EULA prohibits you from replacing the motherboard.” Other than the fact some OEM licenses are motherboard locked.
“If the OEM senses that having Windows provides value to the consumer, as opposed to offering the product with no OS or with Linux”
Please don’t fool your self. At times from dell and others OS less cost more than with Windows. Reason not value to consumer but amount of money companies will pay to have trial ware bundled.
Or what I call trickware. Most of it pops up scares the user.
Or is Malware like Nortons Anti-virus. Yes serous-ally its Malware. You go to add and remove and just remove it the computer now gains a whole stack of problems. You have to download the Nortons special removal tool to remove it without the computer gaining issues. Now why does not the add and remove just print message please download our removal tool. This is not profit making.
Having a persons computer stuffed up so taken back to the shop so the shop that sold them says it looks like a virus so sells them an anti-virus. This could be Nortons. Yes magically reinstalling fixes the mess. Installing any other anti-virus does not fix the mess.
Yes a lot of oem shipped applications are Malware. Yet for some reason people still happy buy their machines. Notorns is only one of many.
“So, oldman is wrong. The four freedoms have great value even for those not accessing the source code.”
Well, the one about being able to read the source code has no value. Otherwise, it is a truism that not having to pay is less expensive than having to pay. How long do you suppose that will last?
“M$ gets of the order of $50 per licence and the OEM gets of the order of $50 per licence so the consumer pays of the order of $100 per licence with that other OS.”
More wrong thinking on your part, #pogson. I don’t know for sure what the OEM might pay these days for Windows, but I would accept the $50 figure. However, that is just an expense for the OEM and there is no specific charge or any markup for the software just as there is no specific markeup for the hardware parts used, or the box that it ships in. An OEM sells a product at a price point and however much that price exceeds his manufacturing cost is the initial margin on the product. The consumer is paying the price for the product and what goes into the product is immaterial. If the OEM senses that having Windows provides value to the consumer, as opposed to offering the product with no OS or with Linux, a distinct price may be set, but it has nothing to do with the license fees paid to Microsoft.
Products are priced at what they CAN sell for, not at what they MUST sell for.
Oh, you are totally full of beans, or worse, #chapman. You silly geese have been mouthing that myth for ages and nothing has ever happened to support the notion.
“Totally bogus as well. Nothing in the EULA prohibits you from replacing the motherboard.”
And nothing prohibits Microsoft from forcing you to buy another copy of the OS you already own to go with your new motherboard. That’s what the US department of Justice bought you with that slap on the wrist for Microsoft Contrarian.
“lost/ripped COA”
That is a lot of baloney, #pogson. I am surprised that you would make such an inaccurate statement. The only requirement for a COA is that it be affixed to the computer when sold and purchased. There has never been a case of an ordinary end user ever even being asked to produce a COA much less not being able to use Windows because of a scrape or tear.
“change of motherboard”
Totally bogus as well. Nothing in the EULA prohibits you from replacing the motherboard.
“The software has to go with the PC or it cannot be run.”
Well, doh! The OEM software is tied to the computer and is part of the package. So what?
“connection to more than 10 “devices”.”
The Windows 7 Home Premium limit is 20, but that is for concurrent accesses in any case. If you have more than 20 active, concurrent connections to your desktop, you are certainly using it as a server and you need a server license for that.
I suspect Vista was the “pinnacle” of bloat. While not being asked to do anything more than Lose 3.1 could do, say, copy a file, it would process the file or something and take forever.
see “Solution”
So, M$ was charging money for a new, improved version of the OS that was new but not improved… Then they charged additional money for Vista-debugged aka “7″. That was a horror.
“Much non-FREE software has tons of features that include some that oldman and others appreciate but just the plethora of features makes the software more prone to bugs and more difficult to use, a negative value”
Careful with that statement, Pogson. I suspect oldman might (somewhat rightfully) tear into you for that one.
Where “feature”=”bloat”, as in much of the proprietary world, you might be right. And certainly there is much to be said for lightweight software that gets the job done with minimal fuss or resource use. But sometimes and in some use cases more features (and any confusion you have learning about them) are simply necessary.
One difference I have seen between open source and proprietary programs (as well as between open source and proprietary mindsets) is that in the proprietary world there is a higher probability that the programs will be designed to try to do everything in one package. They try to be–and the users often expect them to be–a one-stop shop for everything in their area of use (subject to the paring down of capabilities to help sell the “premium” version, of course) They rarely talk to other similar programs in the course of the workflow, if indeed they are even capable of talking to another program (proprietary formats, etc.)
Whereas with open source software, I often see several smaller, lighter programs used together or in sequence to produce an end result just as good or better than what the all-in-one proprietary application is capable of. Sometimes one program will simply incorporate another program into itself as a dependency in order to perform a certain task. Since it is all open source, there’s little need for everyone to reinvent the wheel again and again.
oldman has some “strange” opinions but he does know a lot about computing. If I needed someone to run a server farm or a gazillion PCs, he would be a good choice. I don’t like how he shops for software but that’s his choice.
“A respected commentator, oldman”!!!?!?!?!?
cough sputter whaaaat? cough cough sputter!
Ahhh crap, I think I just spewed coffee all over my monitor!