If you have to reinstall the OS of your PC to keep it running, consider installing GNU/Linux to stop the foolishness.
There you have it. Anti-malware cannot fix that other OS. You need to re-install/restore from a backup. It’s easier to install GNU/Linux if you don’t have a backup. Check out Debian GNU/Linux or one of my videos:
Just choose “Install” and choose “desktop” and “standard system” when choice of installations comes up. Takes 10-15 minutes from a CD or an hour or less from the web with a broadband connection for a newbie on a newish machine. That other OS can take hours, even on a new machine.
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“If you have to reinstall the OS of your PC to keep it running, consider installing GNU/Linux to stop the foolishness.”
The amount of time to reinstall Windows from scratch is miniscule in comparison to the time one will spend relearning ones applications and re-inventing the wheel after what amounts to a forklift upgrade to Linux and FOSS.
Your right, oldman: “oldmen” can’t be taught new tricks. GNU/Linux is only for the bright and brainy. STAY AWAY.
And to point out the obvious once again, if you are updating your MB and CPU, you just can’t ‘simply’ reboot into M$ winDoze… So, you may as well go for GNU/Linux. Ready in 20 min.
Not if you add up all the reinstalls, waiting on boot times, general sluggishness due to a clogged Registry and time waiting for the virus scanner to be finished. You see “oldman”, you suffer from the same selective memory loss I’ve mentioned here a number of times. People who use Microsoft Windows simply forget all the bad things they experience using that OS.
Once you add up all the negative experiences one has using Windows, the experience of learning a new OS is not a barrier. Don’t forget “oldman” like nearly all GNU/Linux users I too have years of experience using Windows.
Yep, and the EULA doesn’t like a new mobo.
It’s a GUI, oldman. Not much relearning required.
“Microsoft is advising users to reinstall Windows if they happen to be unfortunate enough to get hit by a particularly vicious rootkit.”
There are tools to help get rid of rootkit, but the easiest and quickest way is to just reformat. (As well as some nasty ones that can only be taken care of by reformatting).
But the same thing can happen on Linux. If your Linux machine gets hit by a vicious rootkit, the easiest thing for an average user to do is a reformat.
“That other OS can take hours, even on a new machine.”
It takes less than an hour to install Windows 7 on a new machine.
I did it once, on a new machine and it was hours to get the installation done. It was a new machine that came with XP and “upgrade rights” to “7″. I wrote about it. I took notes. First sign of a desktop appeared after 1 hour. After another hour I still do not have all the drivers needed and it boots in twice the time of our 8 year old PCs. It wasn’t until 4 hours had elapsed that the firewall and anti-malware was running. Pitiful.
. . . the source )not The Register) doesn’t say you have to reinstall Windows to remove the rootkit. Microsoft just says that you have to fix the MBR before using System Restore (and gives intructions to do it).
I’ve done it quite a bit on new machine, it took an hour at most.
When someone uses the term “clogged Registry”, you know it’s time to stop reading and move on.
Like this? “Microsoft has to start showing first consideration to it’s end-users and not be held hostage by the Worldwide Mega-Oligargy of Hardware and Software Venders by enforcing some standards upon them to protect the average PC user, but they won’t do it because most new PC sales are because of a driver conflict, a bent and clogged registry or a software log jam”
see Laptop Battery Life – Final Solution
This is what is so superior about distros. Installing an application should not change the behaviour of the whole system and bog it down. In that other OS, since most apps come form third parties and the registry may be edited by any installer, you get what you get.
Considering the raw power of PCs these days, I wonder what obscene wastage of resources is M$ up to that it takes that long. With GNU/Linux, files get copied into place and you are done. An upgrade takes only a bit longer than a fresh install but with that other OS it’s like tearing your arm off.
“The amount of time to reinstall Windows from scratch is miniscule in comparison to the time one will spend relearning ones applications and re-inventing the wheel after what amounts to a forklift upgrade to Linux and FOSS.”
Yes, exactly! So you should never, ever change or update your applications or your operating system, to avoid ever having to learn new ways to do things. The way you learned to do it the first time is the right way forever. Stick with that, and when you see people suggesting any change, make sure you set them straight with a well-thought-out comment on the internet.
Hey guys don’t pick on ALL old men as I’m 70+ and I’ve been hanging around since W-3.1 and worked my way through Mandrake 5 and have progressed to where these day I run Kubunto 11.04, & W-7, but my latest challenge is Linux mint 11 and LM debin xfce (RL) and today I added PCLinxos kde 2010.12 (rolling release).
Since I got into building my own boxes years ago I gave up on wasting my money on anything M$. As they say …… “Linux you’ve come along way baby” For me the way of the future for Linux is in rolling releases …….. To sit back and watch a OS re-invent itself on a daily basis is something very special …… So everyone make sure you send in a few bucks to support your favorite OS.
Yes, that 6-month mandatory fresh install is oh so much better from the Linux camp.
And the lovely choice of crapware applications with all those oh so clever names will entertain you for months (but their free!!!!!!).
But the best part is the brotherhood of Linux, where every single complaint will be met by A) you’re a moron, B) if you don’t like it, code it yourself, C) that’s a stupid idea – go back to Microsuck or D)an apology explaining why that’s not a bug it’s a feature and you’re just using it the wrong way.
Of course that doesn’t count the other 12 options – all that range from not helping at all, recommending you use Distro X instead of your current Distro Y, or completely borking your system from some noob even greener then you are.
Give it up – Linux on the desktop just sucks. Always has, always will (now Linux on the server or the cloud is a completely different story).
“To sit back and watch a OS re-invent itself on a daily basis is something very special”
To just get on with ones work is even more special.
“Yes, exactly! So you should never, ever change or update your applications or your operating system, to avoid ever having to learn new ways to do things.”
IN a 30+ year career, I’ve probably obsoleted more applications and OS’s than you’ve used. I’ve also updated and changed applications on a regular basis as needed.
Please explain to me why one HAS to learn a new way to do things when that way is demonstrably inferior to the way that one works now?
Remember.
“Yes, exactly! So you should never, ever change or update your applications or your operating system, to avoid ever having to learn new ways to do things.”
So let me get this straight – If faced with an event that caused me to have to reinstall my OS and software, I should just decide on the spur of the moment, regardless of my needs, regardless of what my deadlines and deliverables are, I should just go ahead and willy nilly convert to FOSS on linux,
just to learn something new…
Sound about right?
Actually what would happen is that I would rebuild my system, which includes Linux running all of my FOSS and commercial Linux tools and applications in a virtual machine, and get on with the work I need doing.
Windows does take ages to install. And you have to set up the applications too; though that is the same on Linux.
But this doesn’t make me think I might need to push users onto an unfamiliar OS. It makes me appreciate the importance of imaging software like Ghost. Where I work, these programs are used to deploy both Windows and Linux in a dual-boot configuration. The support people did one Windows/Linux install, months ago, and then cloned it across hundreds of workstations with Ghost.
The same advantages of Linux on servers is also available for Linux on the desktop.
What six month installs? I can go many years without re-installing a GNU/Linux system. Because Debian GNU/Linux uses the APT package manager, I can “apt-get update;apt-get upgrade” and get the latest release going in a few minutes if I wish. If I don’t wish, I can run two years or so on the latest stable release with updates or longer without. Don’t paint all of GNU/Linux with the release cadence of Ubuntu. Even Ubuntu is superior to that other OS issuing “critical” updates every month, causing sleepless nights.
Of course, if you have a bunch of machines ( I had 100 where I last worked ), imaging is the way to go. If one values time, this technology is useful even for backing up one machine. However, this goes way over the head of most users of PCs for whom the thought of installation is unimaginable. Most users of PCs call in Uncle Bob or someone with expertise/experience to do these things. Most users of PCs, in my experience, don’t even get the idea of backing up files they create, let alone a whole system. M$ doesn’t make it easy, protecting IP and cash flow.
Hard drives and arrays of drives can write 100 MB/s+ and a networked backup can feed that storage with the image of choice in a few minutes in the trivial case and a few hours on large drives with lots of data. The average user of a PC is much more likely to use the “restore CD” that came with the machine instead of something more streamlined. Installing GNU/Linux from a CD is faster than doing a restoration/installation of that other OS. I have done the GNU/Linux installation hundreds of times and that other OS enough times to know that. The worst possible case, IMHO, is an upgrade of that other OS. I don’t know exactly how M$ does it but it seems like it is a backup followed by a tedious installation followed by a restore. It takes forever and the hard drive is usually busy. With GNU/Linux, with the /home partition separate, it’s a trivial installation in comparison. Even apt-get dist-upgrade which I did a lot last year is faster than that other OS by a large margin because only the necessary files get rewritten.
“The same advantages of Linux on servers is also available for Linux on the desktop.”
Irrelevant Pog. The applications that are required to get a given set of tasks done determine the platform that is specified. Any other issues, including the ease of maintenance of a particular platform are ultimately subordinate to the application requirements.
More simply put, the fact that it may take you more time to install a windows system than linux is irrelevant. your job is to make sure that you have the proper tools to get the job done as expeditiously as possible. You job is NOT to propose a rip and replace where one is neither warranted nor asked for by the people who make the decisions.
oldman wrote, “The applications that are required to get a given set of tasks done determine the platform that is specified.”
Well, that can happen, but most people buy a computer and use the OS that comes with it regardless of what work they want to do. Then they find or create applications that do that work with that OS.
e.g. My little woman used to find applications that would run on XP to get her work done. Now she finds applications that run on Debian GNU/Linux instead. She still gets her work done.
Using the “car” analogy. One buys a car that can carry 2 to five passengers usually. On the occasion when 7 people need transportation, they rent/buy a larger vehicle or arrange for a second vehicle. Very few go buy a 15 passenger vehicle at the start to handle the rare case. Further, one doesn’t buy a Cadillac or a Chevy because one expects fairly regularly to haul one or two people around. One buys a motor vehicle that will do the job and both of those will or almost any other, too.
“One buys a motor vehicle that will do the job and both of those will or almost any other, too.”
Computers are not automobiles Pog, and what makes a “requirement” is not always objective.
for instance My “boss” only used firefox and thunderbird under XP. I deemed he a candidate for the scenario that you posit and as an experiment I gave her an ubuntu configured system with firefox and thunderbird. She would up rejecting it out of hand because the imbedded html in her email either didnt render the same (i.e. “improperly”) or the URL’s were “broken”.
And as you know, one does not argue with ones “boss” when she has decided something
As far as your boss is concerned, I am willing to bet that there are no issues because she most likely turn to will just turn her “handyman” and tell him to “fix it”
Not everyone is that lucky.
I married her because she was so tiny and so sweet…
If a group of hundreds of users are getting their work done on GNU/Linux PCs, then an upgrade on those PCs is not irrelevant by your definition “oldman”. They are performing work and getting it done. Just because they are not using proprietary applications to get their work done does not mean they are not getting any work done.
“If a group of hundreds of users are getting their work done on GNU/Linux PCs, then an upgrade on those PCs is not irrelevant by your definition “oldman”. They are performing work and getting it done. Just because they are not using proprietary applications to get their work done does not mean they are not getting any work done.”
No doubt such users may exist, but their existence IS irrelevant in this case, Mr. Chapman. Pog is proposing what I contend is an inappropriate solution to an catastrophic event. The fact that there exits those who can make linux and FOSS work for them does not in any way effect the fact that the proposal is inappropriate.
I married her because she was so tiny and so sweet…
”
And now she just tells you to “fix it”
Ah the joys of new management.
Their work is irrelevant because their existence is irrelevant?
I didn’t realize we were playing a game where you make up the rules as we go along “oldman”. Of course they are irrelevant. Whatever you say is irrelevant is irrelevant.
“Their work is irrelevant because their existence is irrelevant?
I didn’t realize we were playing a game where you make up the rules as we go along “oldman”. Of course they are irrelevant. Whatever you say is irrelevant is irrelevant.”
It’s not difficult to understand, this conversation isn’t about them. They’re fine and happy with their favorite Linux Distro. This is all about the Window Users that Pog is suggesting should switch to GNU/Linux. Those people have jobs to do on their computer, and switching to GNU/Linux could effect how they do work because either A.) The software they use won’t work on Linux. B.)The input devices (like a Tablet) won’t work on Linux. C.)Linux doesn’t run well on their machine.
Zombie Chan wrote, “either A.) The software they use won’t work on Linux. B.)The input devices (like a Tablet) won’t work on Linux. C.)Linux doesn’t run well on their machine.”
None of these are likely to affect someone whose IT guys or OEM set things up except A.
“The software they use” is problematic because it assumes there is one and only one software package that can do some particular task that is a part of their job. That is an extreme view of what a computer is. It’s about toggling bits. If one needs a certain task done on a computer with any OS there is likely to be software available for the task if it is a useful task (not Mahjongg or Netflix). If not, the software can be created either by writing the software or combining something customized with available applications. In ten years of using GNU/Linux in education, I have never seen a task that could not be done with GNU/Linux. Business may have some particular task that accountants do that requires data or software not available on GNU/Linux but there are very few businesses where everyone is an accountant doing such tasks. ie. You can use GNU/Linux to do most of the tasks in any business. It’s not usually rocket science but information processing and mathematics.
There are task that I need to do that cannot be done on Linux. Most of the development jobs in my area are .Net positions. You can’t really develop with .Net on Linux.
The same is for people who use Photoshop at work. There is nothing that comes close to PhotoShop on Linux.
There’s also software that people simply prefer that are not on Linux. Like Notepad++ is my favorite text editor, I don’t like Vim, emacs or gEdit.
The oldman troll does what he does best by saying,
Translation: shut up and do what you are told, no matter how costly, inefficient, invasive and ugly it is. This is the Microsoft mantra, to insult those who know better and to demand blind obedience to Bill Gates.
No thanks, Oldman. Quit trying to force that crap on people. Go find a Microsoft board where people will be happy to hear how wonderful Word is.
“No thanks, Oldman. Quit trying to force that crap on people. Go find a Microsoft board where people will be happy to hear how wonderful Word is.”
Item #1 – I was not forcing “crap” on anyone. Pog, was providing an inappropriate answer to a problem, thats it.
Item #2 – Pog can ban me any time he wishes. Untill he does, I ‘ll be here discussing IT with him.
Deal with it.
“shut up and do what you are told, no matter how costly, inefficient, invasive and ugly it is.”
As opposed to your mantra which seems to be:
“Just shut up and convert to linux, no matter how disruptive, or inefficient for YOUR tasks it may be. You are nothing but a happy slave with no brain and judgement of your own that we must guide you to the truth. You’ll adapt and be the better for it.”
What you are Mr. twitter is an unthinking zealot, and it shows IMHO in your sometimes very shortsighted if not actually ignorant diatribes.
oldman is welcome to comment here. He works in IT for a large organization. He uses that other OS personally. His experiences are valid, just different from mine…
Do you really need to develop for .NET? I used PCs for many years before I encountered it. Last year, my employers had PCs loaded with nearly 1gB of .NET stuff that was totally useless for us. I deleted it just so backups would be smaller. Later we switched to GNU/Linux and IT did not stop.
“Do you really need to develop for .NET? ”
Yes, it’s what the companies around here pay me to do. The companies around here have some in-house software they use that was written in .Net.
“No thanks, Oldman. Quit trying to force that crap on people.”
Even though there’s no forcing. He’s simply saying that telling people to just install Linux to solve all their problems isn’t the best solution. When you need to use a certain software for your work that is not on linux, (like PhotoShop or Visual Studio) switching to an OS that can’t do that isn’t a good idea.
“There’s also software that people simply prefer that are not on Linux. Like Notepad++ is my favorite text editor, I don’t like Vim, emacs or gEdit.”
You just nailed yourself as a Prima donna ZC. GNU/Linux has many text editors as good and better than Notepad++. You just have to pick one and adjust it to your liking (they don’t read your mind… yet). No ZC, you don’t like GNU/Linux and that’s just that. Your Notepad argument, if you could call it that, is just an excuse. What did you “prefer” before Notepad?
“His experiences are valid, just different from mine…”
Thank you Pog for the kind words.
The point that I believe needs making is that no matter how simple you think a situation is in IT, it is very wise to look before you leap. Perhaps it IS the case that a given set of users could take the opportunity to switch to Linux and do well. It has been my experience that this kind of blind “just do X” response leads to disasters.
Remember, the bozos who ran the munich conversion project thought it would be simple, and 9 years later and they are still not done.
“No ZC, you don’t like GNU/Linux and that’s just that.”
It may indeed be that Mr. ZC does not “link” Linux as a desktop. But I would suggest Mr. Chapman, that you consider that the world is not black and white. You will find that there are a lot of people who work in both worlds for different reasons.
For instance I “like” a certain distribution of Linux and its derivatives as a server. I can use it to quickly set up internet services that I can make fold into the kind of mixed environment that can be useful for even those who use windows.
My experience with Linux as a general desktop platform has been that it is second rate at best. It lacks the ability to support certain programs that I am productive in and the so called substitutes for those programs are in my estimation not worth the work to make them work for me, IF I can do so at all.
That is reality that you would do well to keep in mind.
“You just nailed yourself as a Prima donna ZC. GNU/Linux has many text editors as good and better than Notepad++.”
That maybe true for you, but I still like Notepad++. Why should I give up the text editor that I’ve been using since I started my career just because you guys say that GNU/Linux is more superior.
“No ZC, you don’t like GNU/Linux and that’s just that.”
Actually, it’s not that I don’t like GNU/Linux. There was a time in College when I was a huge GNU/Linux fanboy. I just grew up and stop caring what OS I’m using, just as long as it has the software I need to do the job.
Windows has all the software that I used in GNU/Linux as well as more that were no available in GNU/Linux.
Zombie Chan wrote, “I just grew up and stop caring what OS I’m using, just as long as it has the software I need to do the job.”
Caring is part of being human. I, too, used that other OS until I was responsible for the education of students using it and cared enough to change. It did take an effort because I had a bit of learning to do suddenly but it was worth it many times over. Students all over northern Canada got to use IT instead of “wait, please wait”, “hourglasses” and lost files. I had figured out how to work around the foibles of that other OS but when stuff really had to get done that other OS was not up to it.
oldman wrote, “It lacks the ability to support certain programs that I am productive in”
That is false. GNU/Linux does not lack the ability to run any application. The makers of certain applications lack the willingness/resources to write OS-independent software or to port to GNU/Linux. It’s just bits, oldman. The CPU runs the instructions. GNU/Linux can let that happen as well or better than that other OS. The reasons for choices are quite another matter. People who choose GNU/Linux are not at a disadvantage for applications. They can install from distros, install from the web, write their own or modify others and they can pay someone to write the software they need. It all works.
I like to emphasize resources/costs in my decisions. If time, money and aggravation are of no import to you, by all means let choice of ISV determine your choice of OS but in the long run, systems set up my way will get more done because they last longer, run faster and have fewer problems.
That’s more a comment on the implementers of change rather than the change. They did a lot of things backwards. IMHO, all problems with GNU/Linux are soluble. Convert each department to FLOSS apps and thin clients/terminal servers. Set up system-wide standards, protocols, forms etc. and change to centralized management. That is trivial with openLDAP and the like. Technically, there is no problem that GNU/Linux cannot solve this way. Dealing with the social/political issues likely takes more time. When I set up a system in a school with 500 users, it took 10 man-days from the arrival of the equipment until the system was operational. It took 2 hours to introduce the system to the staff in two meetings/demonstrations and there was very little pushback, a couple of high-needs/less capable users was all there was. Munich seems to have over-studied the matter and designed everything from top to bottom a couple of times. Fear of making mistakes or annoying anyone seems to have been the motivation for years of delay. The bottom line is that they will achieve the migration under the budget first allocated and will revise the plan for centralized management with a further allocation recovered by economies elsewhere. They will have a better system and will never have to make a huge CAPEX just because M$ wants more money.
I don’t understand how something as simple as a text-editor could be decisive in choosing a platform. Text editing is generic commodity software. I have had nothing but grief from NotePad like it’s insistence on adding “.txt” to filenames. If I SaveAs index.html I have had index.html.txt stored. What’s with that? Chuck it in the trash-heap along with that other OS.
“Remember, the bozos who ran the munich conversion project thought it would be simple, and 9 years later and they are still not done.”
That’s a monument to the barbed teeth of proprietary lock-in, not the inefficiencies of change.
“GNU/Linux does not lack the ability to run any application. The makers of certain applications lack the willingness/resources to write OS-independent software or to port to GNU/Linux. ”
That is a distinction without a difference Pog. The apps are not there, their “substitutes” do not suit.
In the meanwhile, most of your “problems” simply aren’t there any more. In fact I I were to put you in properly supported and funded classroom environment running tye latest versions of all software and OS’s you would find that most of your “problems” no lnger exist.
“I don’t understand how something as simple as a text-editor could be decisive in choosing a platform. Text editing is generic commodity software.”
It’s not just Text Editor, it’s other software I need to run to do my job such as Visual Studio once most of the companies in the area I live are Microsoft Shops. They have SQL Servers, Window Servers and have .NET apps.
I don’t understand why you want people to switch to GNU/LINUX soo bad when they are just fine with using Windows. All the companies I’ve worked for don’t have problems with their Window Servers, and very few problems with Windows Desktop OS.
“It took 2 hours to introduce the system to the staff in two meetings/demonstrations and there was very little pushback, a couple of high-needs/less capable users was all there was.”
I think Pog that you have been extraordinarily lucky in your experiences. You were in an environment where most of the targets of your forced conversion were computer indifferent. Were you in an environment filled with computer literate people who were also familiar with their tools, I believe that you would have had a very different experience.
I have had the uncomfortable experience of watching a linux enthusiast like yourself deal with a hostile environment of his own making because he like you thought he could just present a group of productive windows users with their “new tools”, only to have to deal with a palace revolt by them. His life then became a continual hell as the people that he had imposed linux and FOSS on insisted on his addressing every little glitch and problem with his system, all the while having to deal with a management who was unhappy at the pressure that his users were applying to get things reversed.
oldman wrote, “Were you in an environment filled with computer literate people who were also familiar with their tools, I believe that you would have had a very different experience.”
I have been in many schools and less than 10% of the users of PCs there were what I would call “computer literate”.
For example,
Students I teach know about clock cycles, components of PCs, networking, what a server is and what is in the EULA.txt. Students are amazed what computers can do if they throw off the shackles of M$. To you, those shackles may simply be purchases, but students do know when they are being ripped off, charged far above the market value of IT and teachers really do appreciate that GNU/Linux can run on client and server giving great performance on both.
Zombie Chan wrote, “they are just fine with using Windows”.
I have never met anyone in person who was just fine using that other OS. Everyone I know hated Vista, hates malware, and struggle to work around the slowing down of that other OS. Large organizations may have 1 IT person per X number of PCs running that other OS which gives them some comfort level but individuals and small organizations see the burden. They just don’t realize there is a choice. Where I went to work in November 2009, the school had 40 PCs for classrooms. Half were not working and most of those were that other OS failing to boot. A few were indeed dead power-supplies and such. Those folks were not “fine using that other OS”. They were amazed that GNU/Linux ran much faster than that other OS on their existing hardware and a few new machines that came in. They were much better off with GNU/Linux.
and who is going to pay for that support? Is it going to come out of the per student funding which barely covers salaries? Who is going to pay for the downtime/break-fix stuff when malware gets in which it inevitably will? Who is going to pay for the overtime because the school functions on a schedule? Who is going to repair the bureacracy, independent of IT, which cannot even keep track of inventory? The solution needs to be self-contained, resilient and not constrained by purchasing, M$ or anyone else if it is to work. How many IT people do you think a school with 12 classrooms 500 miles by air from Winnipeg can afford? Where will that IT person be housed, for pity’s sake? They don’t have any surplus housing or I would still be working there.
I was talking about companies that uses Windows. They know about Linux and they could use it if they wanted to, but they choose to either to do both Window Servers and Linux Servers with Windows on the Desktop or Windows Servers and Windows Desktop or Linux Servers and Windows Desktop. At the last company I worked for, I ended up being the developer as well as the guy people will come to when they need help on their computer. Most of the time, they just needed help to do something in Outlook. I rarely saw a problem that occurred with Windows itself. (But also we didn’t run XP very often, most computers were running Windows 7).
Also to let you know, their seems to be a layout bug when I view this blog on chrome. The comments seem to lose their style after so many comments post. I don’t know if it’s just chrome, or if it’s happening on other browsers as well.
I use Google Chrome browser and everything works for me. There are a few glitches like unordered lists need no
tags and they want a blank line before and after… but that could be just TinyMCE.
Most businesses have been reluctant to switch to “7″ because XP works, mostly. I guess businesses that look upon that other OS as a cost of business see the malware and stuff as just a part of the cost of doing business. Patch Tuesdays were too frightening for me…
“Patch Tuesdays were too frightening for me…”
I dont know why. My systems have been auto patching for years and they are still running without event.
I object to your presumption, rudeness and threatening attitude, oldman. I’ve seen you tell Pogson he’ll never get a job if he does not brush up on the latest Microsoft garbage. Above, you tell him that his job is to follow directions rather than think and advise based on his vast experience. You also call the people who are running the successful Munich transition, “Bozos”. When reasonable arguments fail, it seems, you fall back to insult, threats and bullshit.
Pogson may welcome Microsoft “perspectives” here, but I’m free to call them what they are. Madness is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. Microsoft advocates are either paid, ignorant, insane or all of these. This is never more powerfully demonstrated than when a user’s pee cee falls over from botnets activity. At that point, the utter futility of non free software is apparent. Yet, here you are telling people that moving to free software is impossibly impractical.
“My systems have been auto patching for years and they are still running without event.”
It may be worth your while the check in with these people “oldman”: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/
Well, M$ was telling the world about some fatal vulnerability and they did it at their convenience, right in the middle of our work day. That meant my people and machines were vulnerable to zero-day attacks all day long and sometimes into the next day because machines would not all auto-update.
“I object to your presumption, rudeness and threatening attitude, oldman.”
And I object to your refusal to consider any software function and feature beyond that which you deem adequate as being a valid reasons not to choose free software. I object to your arrogant assumption that there is no real reason to use commercial software under any situation. I object to your dismissal as slaves, ignorant or crazy those who continue to use commercial software in general and Microsoft in particular. And mostly I object to the tone of someone who does not even seem to know the tools that he would shove down the throats of all of us who do choose, yes CHOOSE, to use commercial software on both the Linux and windows platforms for reasons that we can demonstrate..
“Pogson may welcome Microsoft “perspectives” here, but I’m free to call them what they are”
Actually, you are only free to call them until you overstep your bounds, at which time you to will be banned, just as Pog has banned some of the abusive types who used to post here. But by all means, keep calling me names instead of discussing/debating the issues. Your notion of answering to my comments is to ignore any points I make and instead to blather on with ideological bushwah, I shouldnt have any problems.
“Well, M$ was telling the world about some fatal vulnerability and they did it at their convenience, right in the middle of our work day. That meant my people and machines were vulnerable to zero-day attacks all day long and sometimes into the next day because machines would not all auto-update”
Fair enough Pog. The problem that I have however is that I and others have had very different much more positive experiences even with XP. But then again we have not had to deal with the vagaries of slow/inadequate hardware running on a network whose internet connection was a glacially slow as some of the ones that you have described.
Your situation does not change the fact that windows updates on windows 7 are running without incident.
“It may be worth your while the check in with these people “oldman”: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/”
Alas Mr. Chapman, my experience is hardly unique, as you would discover if you actually used a modern windows system on modern hardware with a broadband internet connection.
IN fact you’d probably find that you linux rig would perform even better if you actually broke down a bought some modern equipment.
I have used GNU/Linux on a new PC and it barely gets any better performance than an 8 year old PC. The chief differences are memory bandwidth and read-write speed to hard drives. The old machines typically had 40 gB hard drives that could read-write 40 MB/s while the new machines with 500gB hard drives could to 100+MB/s. My terminal servers with SCSI + RAID kicked butt (320 MB/s) compared to a new PC with that other OS.
I do not believe anyone wants to increase performance of PCs by adding large numbers of parallel storage devices in every PC. That defeats the cost-savings people are used to from Moore’s Law. They will invest in those development on the server so they can access better performance on thin clients. That is one of the drivers for “the cloud”. In many cases superior performance is achieved at lower cost.
see Google
or limit the search to “7″ and this year…. 750K hits
Some headlines:
M$ created all these problems and moving to GNU/Linux fixes them for me.
oldman wrote, “I object to your refusal to consider any software function and feature beyond that which you deem adequate as being a valid reasons not to choose free software”.
Is that any different from those who refuse to consider FLOSS because one particular application does not run on GNU/Linux? ie. PhotoShop not running on GNU/Linux is just as significant a drawback as malware running on that other OS or the EULA’s restrictions/complexity. It is unfair to argue that one’s objections to FLOSS are more valid than another’s objections to that other OS. Really, I can live without PhotoShop. I have only used it a few times in my life and find nothing of particular value. I cannot live with a constant onslaught of malware, particularly when the malware keeps getting through multiple layers of defences and wrecking performance or worse. I can live without AutoCad. I have designed several subsystems for particle accelerators with no help from AutoDesk. I cannot live with an hourglass telling me that my desktop is not ready for use. That is maddening. I cannot live with constant re-re-reboots or restrictions on how many PCs there can be on my network.
Here is a wonderful story about Windows and GNU/Linux. Average users know Windows all too well. This one escaped in a single night. Microsoft people who claim that Windows is anything but hated are either out of touch or lying. Given a real choice, most people dump Windows.
Windows 7 is no different and is in many ways worse than previous versions. Microsoft PR pretends that Windows 7 has been a big sales, if not technical, success but Microsoft’s bottom line has actually declined worse than it did with Vista and the company’s net worth follows closely behind. Talk about Windows 8 is the surest sign of market failure.
The world has changed and left Microsoft behind. Who will put up with all the flaws and hostility of Windows just so they can buy thousands of dollars in additional software that is equally hostile and flaky when they can get free software instead? Developers moved on a decade ago and software for Windows has gone from stale to rotten.
The most important concern though is freedom. Non free software turns a user’s computer against them. Microsoft and other software owners are able to send themselves whatever they like from user’s computers, and Google recently proved they do this regularly. Microsoft has also abused their position as an email provider to censor political newsletters from Truthout and other organizations they did not like. Microsoft has been obvious in their abusiveness but all non free software can do the same.
Given a choice between features or freedom, freedom is best but the choice is entirely false. Free software has been providing a better desktop experience for the better part of ten years. The difference has become more and more obvious. Microsoft advocates can call people “bozos”, “zealots” and other silly names but they have little else to offer. Microsoft’s hand is empty.
M$ tries to snow people by making their system ever more complicated (and more expensive). That must be better, right? The chanting here that it’s all about the applications completely glosses over the fact that most users of that other OS have no ability to manage their own PCs let alone choose applications wisely. On the other hand GNU/Linux is quite transparent and even young children can use it. From time to time I have taught elementary students and it is amazing to see them helping each other, leaving only the truly handicapped kids for me to assist. With that other OS, what are little kids to do when something cryptic pops up in a little box in front of them? or an hourglass? or “wait, please wait”? They can’t even read. Even teenagers are appalled by how slow that other OS is. “It’s so slow!” said one young lady after unboxing a brand new PC with that other OS. She was used to 8 year old PCs running GNU/Linux in the lab. Even if freedom is not a concern, loss of freedom exhibits itself in strange ways: higher prices, lower performance, more problems and less reliability. What else should we expect of software designed to make money for M$ rather than to manage resources on our PCs?
Thanks for the link to Blog of Helios. There are often wonderful stories there. This three-part story is very well told:
“I mentioned that my computer does not freeze. It darn well shouldn’t. It has a 64 bit dual core quad processor with 4 gigs of RAM. Windows 7 infuriated me just as much as Windows XP did with it’s intermittent stalls for no obvious reason. To be fair, a few Linux distros had momentary freezes with a slight darkening of the screen but after a bit of research, I turned Compiz off and it stopped doing it. Personally, I don’t see the point as I didn’t find it useful, just wobbly and shiny.”
Chuckle. The lady not only learned to use GNU/Linux fairly easily, she installed several distros to check them out. Clearly she was “computer literate” but was surprised by the benefits of using GNU/Linux. Great story.
Er … Robert … there seems to be something going wrong with your fonts. Do stop using that naught Windows Server crapware, won’t you?
“The bottom line is that they [Munich] will achieve the migration under the budget first allocated and will revise the plan for centralized management with a further allocation recovered by economies elsewhere.”
The bottom line is that they [Munich] are already ludicrously over budget and facing a mutinous crowd of users. Revise, plan, centralized, allocation, economies elsewhere — it’s like some gigantic Stalinist concrete boot produced by a factory guided by nitwit Party doctrine. It will never happen, my man.
And what’s with this “my little woman” bull? You owe your young lady some flowers, a box of choccies, and a nice cuddle, I think.
(And what’s a ‘y’ between friends?)
DrLoser wrote, “The bottom line is that they [Munich] are already ludicrously over budget and facing a mutinous crowd of users.”
Nope, they are under budget. There were additional funds provided to revise the organization of IT beyond the migration but that is another matter. You would not expect them to remain forever with whatever migration they took, like using Lose 2000 for the next century? They are centralizing their IT. The many departments each with their own IT was an obstacle to the migration but it raised costs with any OS. It’s good they are fixing everything, not just the OS.
The users have been given courses/training up the wazoo. Such training has been recognized as efficient and effective.
My young lady is an elder grandmother now. She buys lots of chocolate and hides it from me.
“My young lady is an elder grandmother now. She buys lots of chocolate and hides it from me.”
Smart lady. She probably wants to keep her investment alive. They tend to do that as I’m sure you’ve found out.
Question to Pogson:
What do you think a lot of the enterprise folks clinging to XP sp3 will do come 2014? Do you think they’ll move to 7 (or 8?), jump to GNU/Linux, or will RectOS hit the sweet spot of timing and come along to vacuum up a lot of them? I’d be interested in your opinion….
Surveys show that many are looking at that. There are several options and combinations of options:
Any application developed in-house is likely to end up on servers. People have had it with fixing file-systems all over the building. They will use a lot more thin clients with little or no local storage. People are fed up with malware and intrusions. They will want to have rugged thin clients and servers tightly controlled by paranoid IT people. People will invest in more/better local servers or clouds and less in thick clients. As the particular OS on the client becomes less critical, GNU/Linux or some Linux will get a lot more play. I expect thick clients to drop steadily in share to 1/2 or less and GNU/Linux, MacOS and Android/Linux will take major share of mobile or static users PCs. ARM will have a bigger share of PCs within a year or two, especially for mobile and thin clients.
There will be lots of businesses stick with M$ no matter what M$ does. There will be lots of businesses using GNU/Linux or any Linux on clients where it makes sense and if the applications are on servers, that will be in most cases. There is a possibility that “8″ will appear in 2012 but it is more likely that it will be 2013. The cost of migrating to “7″ or “8″ will be similar to migrating to GNU/Linux. That will induce many businesses to do what is necessary to be free of Wintel in the next year or two, perhaps 1/3 of businesses. Between use of thin clients and thick clients running Linux, M$’s share of PCs will drop rapidly by the time “8″ rolls out. Likely Android will have a near-monopoly on mobile eventually and intrude in desktops and notebooks. ARM could eventually run all of mobile and most of stationary PCs. There will simply be less need of Wintel.
Major applications popular with business, if they want to remain relevant, will port to ARM and Linux and the web. “8″ could well be the last release of that other OS that attempts to lock M$’s office suite to that other OS. That office suite will become a web application or be widely ported eventually. Already OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice is taking huge share. LibreOffice seems so vibrant it should meet all needs within a year or so.
The naysayers here will likely write that I am wrong but it is happening already. M$ is porting to ARM. Oracle did free OpenOffice.org, although in a very clumsy manner, and Android/Linux is kicking butt. Tablets will be widely adopted in business long before M$’s port is ready. The rate-limit on uptake of tablets is supply of materials now. Manufacturers are redoubling efforts to keep up.
Further, my last employer was actually on XP SP1 with FAT32 when I arrived in 2009. I converted them to XP SP3 and NTFS for a few months and then to Debian GNU/Linux just to make the system manageable. The cost to maintain the system in terms of hours of labour per week went from a dozen or so hours for 40 PCs with XP to a couple of hours for 95 PCs with GNU/Linux. The same machines performed much better without having to run malware scanners on each host and bloatware. I can see a lot of businesses loving those kinds of benefits. As oldman would say, “It’s all about apps.” My employer needed little more than a browser and an office suite. Most businesses will have a few database/CRM/document management thingies but most of that could be run on the server and very simple clients would do.